Dr. Paul Conti: Tools and Protocols for Mental Health | Huberman Lab Guest Series

[Music] welcome to the hubman lab guest Series where I and an expert guest discuss science and science-based tools for everyday life I'm Andrew huberman and I'm a professor of neurobiology and Opthalmology at Stanford school of medicine today marks the fourth episode in our four episode series with Dr Paul kti about mental health today's episode deals with the topic of self-care we hear the phrase self-care a lot nowadays but rarely if ever is self-care precisely defined for instance is self-care about pampering oneself is it about self-acceptance is self-care about just making sure we get enough sleep and enough exercise and have healthy relationships well it turns out that yes indeed adequate self-care is about all of those things but true self-care the topic of today's episode is about far more as it relates to our mental health true self-care is also about constructing a life narrative in which we frame our past our present and future in a way that allows us to see what's gone wrong what's gone right and the best path to navigate forward so in many ways true self-care is really about fostering a sense of self-awareness and doing so within the context of a framework that is known to work and today Dr Paul kti shares with us exactly how to do that he also touches on some of the things that if not properly understood and processed can inhibit our ability to take excellent care of ourselves including how to properly process traumatic experiences something that he is expert in among many other topics as well he also touches on some of the things that can potentially serve as barriers to excellent self-care including traumatic experiences and explains how to frame those traumatic experiences so that we can best move forward he also shares with us various practices that include therapy but also practices that we can carry out on our own such as specific forms of meditation journaling and other ways of examining the self and fostering better self-care toward our mental health as I mentioned before this is the fourth episode in our four episode series all about mental health I realized that perhaps not everyone has had the opportunity yet to listen to the previous three episodes in this series if you haven't it certainly won't prevent you from gleaning important information and protocols from today's episode but I do encourage you at some point to try and listen to all four episodes in this series because at some level they are interwoven at the level of Concepts and of practices I'd also like to highlight that Dr Paul kti has generously provided some simple diagrams that can help you navigate today's material and the mat material in the other episodes they are available as zeroc cost PDFs by simply going to the show note captions where you can view them or download them before we begin I'd like to emphasize that this podcast is separate from my teaching and research roles at Stanford it is however part of my desire and effort to bring zero cost to Consumer information about science and science related tools to the general public in keeping with that theme I'd like to thank the sponsors of today's podcast our first sponsor is betterhelp better help offers Professional Therapy with a licensed therapist carried out all on online I've been doing therapy for more than 30 years well I confess that initially I was forced to do that therapy as a condition for being let back into high school over time I learned that therapy is a tremendously valuable practice in fact I consider doing regular weekly therapy as just as important as doing regular physical exercise in order to improve one's Health the beauty of better help is that it makes it extremely easy to find a therapist that's excellent for you and we can define an excellent therapist as somebody who's going to give you a lot of support but in an objective way as well as somebody with whom you can have excellent Rapport and that can help you arrive at positively transformative insights that you wouldn't have otherwise had and with better help they make it convenient so that it's match to your schedule and the other aspects of your life if you'd like to try betterhelp go to betterhelp.com huberman to get 10% off your first month again that's betterhelp hp.com huberman today's episode is also brought To Us by waking up waking up is a meditation app that offers dozens of guided meditation sessions mindfulness trainings Yoga Nidra sessions and more by now there's an abundance of data showing that even short daily meditations can greatly improve our mood reduce anxiety improve our ability to focus and can improve our memory and while there are many different forms of meditation most people find it difficult to find and stick to a meditation practice in a way that is most beneficial for them the waking up app makes it extremely easy to learn how to meditate and to carry out your daily meditation practice in a way that's going to be most effective and efficient for you it includes a variety of different types of meditations of different duration as well as things like Yoga Nidra which place the brain and body into a sort of pseudo sleep that allows you to emerge feeling incredibly mentally refreshed in fact the science around Yoga Nidra is really impressive showing that after a Yoga Nidra session levels of dopamine in certain areas of the brain are enhanced by up to 60% which places the brain and body into a state of enhanced readiness for mental work and for physical work another thing I really like about the waking up app is that it provides a 30-day introduction course so for those of you that have not meditated before or getting back to a meditation practice that's fantastic or if you're somebody who's already a skilled in regular meditator waking up has more advanced meditations and yoga Neer sessions for you as well if you'd like to try the waking up app you can go to waking up.com huberman and access a free 30-day trial again that's waking up.com huberman and now for my discussion about mental health with Dr Paul Ki Dr KY welcome back thank you pleasure to be here for this series we've been focusing on mental health and really defining what mental health is and a road map to achieve mental health and in episode one you laid out for us a map essentially of the things that any and all of us can look at pretty much at any time with essentially any degree of resource is to try and get a better understanding of ourselves and how well or not well we happen to be moving toward or creating true mental health for ourselves in addition to that you spelled out for us what true mental health really is and just to recap a little bit of that it really boils down to these verb States action states of agency and gratitude yes and then in episode two you covered some of the common challenges that you've observed in life and in your clinical practice and we address some of the ways that people can overcome those challenges by going to the map opening the so-called cupboards as we're referring to them and asking specific sorts of questions and then in episode three we talked about how looking at the map and exploring the map in those Cupboards in particular can help people in relational aspects of Life romantic relationship work relationships family relationships and the relationship to self yes very important very important the foundation of all relationships outside of ourselves and I'm so glad that you highlighted the relationship to self because today's episode we will of course return to the map and I should mention that if people have not seen episodes one two or three that's okay today's discussion will be entirely accessible to them but I do recommend that at some point they especially listen to episode one and hopefully episodes two and three as well but today's discussion is really about the aspects of ourselves that exist in all people and the action steps the paths of inquiry that are available to all people that can allow anyone and everyone to improve their mental health to move toward these ideals of agency and gratitude on a regular basis yes and as you pointed out it is a process it's not that we arrive at agency and gratitude and just to reiterate agency and gratitude are verb States they involve ways of being in the world right they processes like life is an active process right there there's not an end point we're trying to reach right we're trying to live and in thinking about today's discussion you know it occurred to both of us really that today's discussion is really about self-care you know self-care as a concept I think for many people evokes Notions of like okay you're going to take a vacation or you're going to kick your feet up or uh get a massage you know things of that sort and certainly it can evolve those sorts of things but just as if we were having a discussion about physical health and we were going to talk about ways to take care of the physical body to enhance Health span and lifespan today's discussion is really about how to take care of the internal landscape the Mind Right which also qualifies very strongly as self-care yes so if you would could you tell us how you think about self-care you know regardless of whether or not you have a patient who's dealing with severe mental illness or somebody who's just you know um hitting the same speed bumps of Life over and over again or anything in between you know what sorts of self-care practices and mindsets do you suggest people take on for themselves and for that matter how do you think about self-care right well I think we start with with factors that are really just Baseline factors uh that have to be in place in order to achieve good things upon them so the basics of you know we have to be eating well enough to feel okay and hopefully eating really well we have to stay hydrated we have to get sleep we have to move the body I mean the these are Basics but Basics a lot of people are not attending to similarly we have to be in a situation that isn't making fear and misery all the time so an example of an abusive relationship right a person has to be has to navigate out of that before they can really start taking care of themselves in the way that builds goodness right so so we look for the basic factors that we need to take care of in order order to then look at the factors that become particular to each of us and what we're really looking for is self- understanding right how how much can we understand about ourselves be knowledgeable about what's going on inside of us why it's going on also and very importantly being aware that we don't know everything that goes on inside of us and being curious about that and looking at how we're engaging with the world around us are do we feel happy do we not feel happy how do we Define what happy means how are we engaging with the world because as you were saying the agency and gratitude are verb state so how are we living life how are we engaging with the world do we feel like life is a sequence of things I have to do you know for example right or are we doing things we really really don't want to do right do we have to do those things how could life be different right we start looking at ourselves to to assess how we're engaging with ourselves the people the world around us in a way that is either generative or not generative if we're in that state of agency and gratitude then we are going to have periods of time where we feel peaceful right we feel a sense of contentment or we feel delighted so is any of that in my life right if not why can can I start thinking about that sometimes the answer is quite clear like oh there's this thing I love and I'm not doing that right and and I can't do it and then you revisit like is it true that you can't do it I mean a lot of times it is not true and if is true how does the person come to terms with that process that perhaps grieve right so say if it's a loss of a person right that can keep people you know in terrible misery over years and years so there may be things we have to understand we have to process so that we can get ourselves to that place of knowing ourselves pretty well and engaging in the world in ways that we have a pretty good understanding of and that that are adaptive and then we look to say okay now how do I make that better because now we're thinking about preventive medicine right we want our bodies to be healthy because of course we want to be healthy today right but we also don't know what will happen in the future right will there be an injury or an illness I mean eventually like you know we all have an injury or an illness in some way or another so we're preparing for the predictable challenges that will come our way in the future and we're well served by doing this about our mental health too right there will be challenges that come our way there will be losses and stress and things that make us feel bad or feel scared I mean these things will happen to us so the healthier we are the better today is and the better we set ourselves up to either make tomorrow even better today or if tomorrow gives me a challenge I don't have today I can meet that challenge and get back to a better place so if I understand correctly it sounds like one of the cornerstones of self-care for sake of mental health involves asking really good questions about oneself yes yes I don't think I've ever heard it defined that way before yes you know um it's in such stark contrast to the other forms of self-care which I certainly subscribe to as well like making sure one gets enough rest and um you know avoids toxic people to the extent one can Etc or toxic environments uh and so on right you mentioned ask questions of the self but but the The Logical next question to that is well what questions do I ask myself sometimes we know we have an idea right sometimes we don't and this is where the construction of a life narrative like let me think about my life let me potentially talk about my life with a trusted other person let me potentially write down a narrative about my life and we can learn so much from doing that so the person who thinks back and starts to tell a story of themselves and and let's say just as an example you know that story is is going pretty well and the person is feeling pretty good about themselves and then say something happens and and it starts to change well then this thing happened and then you know I started kind of spending time with different people or I started dating different people or I took a different kind of job and and it can engender the reflection of like oh like things really kind of changed thenc because the emotion systems within us don't care about the clock or the calendar the emotions often of negative experiences can back map into our lives and someone who tell you I was miserable ever since I was a child can then write out a life narrative that describes a very happy childhood until something happened or something changed at a certain point which could be something dramatic or it might be increasing pressures of school or increasing social pressures or how things changed at puberty right and if we have an understanding of that we may know the right questions like for example let's say afterwards the person finds that they're drinking more an example but a common example instead of taking that for granted oh that's what I do right or yeah I can't cope any better right the negative things people will say to themselves The Narrative can often point out I can cope better I did cope better I did feel differently about myself so the the life narrative can really help us establish the road map right and part of what the life narrative does is it guides us to the places to ask the questions if you would be so kind as to tell us a little bit more about how one would do this on their own so does this involve journaling things out I confess I have a file on my computer uh that has a bunch of other files that starts with you know age zero to five and then I have some notes in there it's not an autobiography far from it it's just kind of highlights of events that I remember you know six to 10 and so on and places I lived and um I use it just to kind of Orient myself in time yes um I actually don't know what the the purpose utility of it is why I initially started doing this but it's it's an important file to me um and when I return to it I often remember additional key events so it's constantly growing I mean the the these files are getting quite large um again with no specific uh purpose of writing this out at any point but just to orient right right you you you can't not learn about yourself from doing that right it exposes truths of self it makes you ponder about things it draws your attention to ways in which you've changed whether you think those ways are good or bad right it draws your attention to change it draws your attention to the impact of external events and as you said it sort of it grounds you it provides a way of localizing oneself in time like I am here now wait how did I get here right and then the thoughts and ideas of how we got here very much help us because often we don't do that you know we're sort of rushing headlong forward because in many ways our our society is prompting us we live in a very fast moving Society we want information and gratification and often we don't even want it very fast but it's coming at us very fast anyway and to stop and reflect makes a very very big difference even even to think at times Beyond Our Generations right I mean to the best of my knowledge the vast majority of people on one side of my family everyone was a Shepherd for like every generation until like two ago right and thinking about that of like huh that's interesting right it makes me in many ways grateful so grateful for the opportunity I've had but I also think like well they lived in close-knit communities then and what was that like and you know we begin to see ourselves in a broader way both in our own history and then projecting forward which which sometimes is about children and nurturing children but it can certainly be about other things it can be about friendship it can be about work so we start to see ourselves in ways that are interesting that are through the lens of Truth and that speak to our place in the world around us and I think this engenders both agency and gratitude right if I'm aware of like huh what have I done what have I accomplished when haven't I accomplished things how might that be different and and a sense of gratitude for being here and having opportunity and even be able to think about this you know my guess is when you read through those files that at some points you have sort of a sense of Marvel while like whoa that's me right whether it's a good memory or it's a difficult memory no it's all part of you that leads you through to today and you do have a better sense of self through that and one of the feelings I most often come away from those excursions into those files with is one of gratitude because so much of what's in those files um are Recollections of others that I really appreciate some are still alive some aren't and um what that's meant to me and how that carries me forward so yeah so that's what I do um I I'm sure there are a near infinite number of ways that people could do this but what what are a few that you've seen work really well um that people can do on their own or perhaps with a clinician as well in fact that raises the question should people share this sort of practice and the contents of that practice with with a trusted clinician right right yeah I think sharing with an with another person always should be a a trusted other right and we can kind of take stock of that you know of people have an idea of who may be safe right often people say there's no one I could share something with but really that often comes through a lens of fear you know of exposure of self of rejection of vulnerability which often is warranted but sometimes is not sometimes there really are in fact often there are safe people right so the the act of doing something other than just thinking about something brings as you all know it it brings parts of our brain online that then are thinking in a different way so so for example they may bring error correction mechanisms online so if I'm thinking over and over again that I've never been good enough to do anything you know that can be just automatic inside of me but if I start to write or to talk or even to formulate words to talk to myself or to put words in my mind as if I were talking now we come at it in a different way and we we can sort of far it out the truth within us which might be you know it's not true that I've never been able to do things or achieve things and and people often bring that online by doing something other than the same thought process that's gone often over and over and it's nonproductive and it brings down mood and it raises anxiety and it also builds a sense of futility I mean I cannot tell you how often I've heard a person say like no good will come of this or like okay try we'll try but I know I can't be helped I've been thinking about this for 10 years or 20 years but what they've been doing is the same thing they've been ruminating on it for 10 years they start talking about it and and people will say oh my goodness like I I've achieved more in two hours you know than I than I did in years right but that's because you're doing something different in the two hours so I think that's very important especially because we can't say okay go look in your unconscious mind and see what you find there right so then we need ways of accessing the unconscious mind and the communication either with self in writing with others can be very very helpful in doing that I also I am a firm believer that knowledge is power many times I I will feel like I've I I I have a sense of really having helped someone and the other person may have that sense and we can see the change and all that I've done is impart knowledge right we all know different things so often it's the case that hey I happen to have learned things that are different from what that other person learns and then I'm communicating to them things that I have learned so they know them too and then they feel tremendously better right because if we put inside of ourselves the tools of understanding our unconscious minds and sometimes our conscious minds too will work on them we'll make use of them so so if you talk to a person for example about how trauma can impact Us and how we can shove it underneath the surface and how it can spin off shame then that person may take that knowledge away and come back with real understanding and the fact that we can do this on our own right we can do this through good resources we can do this by taking information into ourselves that can be very very helpful and it doesn't require because the first place to start are with things we can do that don't require professional help right and and sometimes we may come at problems that that do tell us that we should get professional help right so if we're having thoughts of self harm thoughts of not wanting to be alive thoughts of real despair thoughts of real of hopelessness that's telling us okay let's get some help there's a role in a place for professional help but people come to professional help in other ways too such as for example reflecting on the self and and it's so real example person thinking you know I really became kind of different when you know when things started changing like after college and then I thought like oh I've kind of gotten to this place and I've got a good job and like things really should get better but like they kind of haven't right and that was really a branch point that person may have never really thought about that or they may have thought about it 10,000 times and then shoved it underneath from from Consciousness to unconsciousness because it's a scary vulnerability inducing thing it seems scary like how could it be that I achieved things and didn't get healthier now we're afraid of that right and and letting that come to the surface being able to say oh like that's true like I don't I don't have to be afraid to shine light on that then a lot of times that alone sometimes a person will solve their own problems they think about it they come in they have all the answers they thank me I did nothing but listen but the listening part is important it allowed them to come in and say what they needed to say and other times then it's not it can be that but it's not always that other times it informs us about what to work on clinically and it might not be something that's dire right it might just be like I want to understand this I want to be happier I want to be healthy I want to work towards these good things when people talk about that they're always if you really distill down what are they talking about a sense of Peace a sense of content coming at the world through agency and gratitude and and we can do that through self-inquiry including through therapy it doesn't have to just be for situations where oh there's a significant clinical problem is it the case that when somebody journals a bit of their life narrative or thinks about some great or sadly traumatic events that perhaps happen to them at whatever stage of life that there's something accomplished in that action uh or in that therapy session if they're doing it with a clinician but that when they go to sleep that night and perhaps in their waking States as well that the unconscious is working some of that through such that you know Revelations come to mind later uh insights come to mind um you know I'm certainly familiar with the fact that there are certain times of day an evening where my brain is in a bit of a lional state it feels like somewhere between sleep and awake and I just have learned that provided I block against um outside sensory input as much as I can uh in particular social media and the news that I'll just be you know doing the dishes or preparing coffee or something and something will come to mind seemingly out of nowhere right it's not always a great Insight in fact it's rarely a great Insight but it it always takes me a bit by surprise sometimes a little bit of delight sometimes a little bit of shock like wow like where did that come from because it came from your unconscious mind right it was invis ible to you then it got thrown up and you're whoa and you realize it while in the midst of doing something relatively mundane right because during the day you're engaging your brain is highly engaged which is great but it doesn't leave a lot of room right for for the unconscious mind to do its millions and millions of things a second that can help you figure things out which is the same reason it's uncanny any any psychiatrist will tell you this that that people a person will come in and say it's strange you know all of a sudden when when I can finally relax like that's when I have a panic attack right or they don't know like then I can finally relax I go ah then my heart's beating fast and I'm sweating right because that's when the panic attacks come if the person is laboring under something that is is causing them the constant distress when when you stop focusing outward and you sort of settle into an inward State then the things that are underneath the surface are going to come to the surface and if there's something really bothering you that your brain is very upset about or very afraid of what does it throw up to the surface a panic attack right but if you're in a good place you're taking care of yourself you're in a generative stage you're in a safe environment then when you you stop putting all the attention outward so we imagine then salience changes and instead of a lot of the salience being outward it starts to be Inward and you're just sort of meditative you're washing the dishes right and there's room then for your unconscious mind to throw something important to the surf it's the exact opposite of how people can't remember something if they're trying to think of it I mean we all go through this like I can't remember that person's name or that restaurant or whatever it is try to keep thinking about it and see if you figure it out right the answer is not in your conscious mind so if you keep bringing your conscious mind to Bear you just generate frustration right but then when you stop thinking about it the answer is there inside of you oh I remember now right so so that's how if we if we have the conscious mind engaged something it's not going to figure out right then it doesn't figure the thing out right and and that works for our problems too that's why a person can say I thought about that for 10 years no you ruminated about it for 10 years it just ran over and over and over in the conscious mind and how ironic right it prevents understanding so it's very clear to me that asking certain kinds of questions about oneself and one's self narrative you know life is history essentially can be very beneficial in the moment or moments of doing that practice as well as the subconscious or I guess the appropriate way to refer to it is the unconscious right okay so for those out there who like me sometimes say subconscious it's unconscious uh the unconscious can throw things up to the surface that can be real insights can can give us not just panic attacks which I think most people would like to shy away from but as you point out there's information in the fact that the panic attack is OCC ing under conditions of you stir up the pot of the unconscious and you put some new information in it it can do new things it can figure new things out which is why the process of self-reflection for example and often the process of therapy is not always and in fact often is not a pleasant process right but then we take away from that hard work renewed insights so someone this happens all the time who who knows they know that a certain trauma is inside of them and has been affecting them whether it's for days or weeks or years they know it they don't know what to do about it they have a conflict about it so they keep trying to shove it under the surface and they they finally accept for whatever reason to to talk about it and and what often happens then is let's say during three or four successive weeks of hourly therapy I mean that person is crying and that person is upset or that person is angry I mean it doesn't always happen this way but it does fair amount of the time as they get better and better right because they're discharging some of the energy right maybe they're crying and and they're they're sad because they're grieving something they haven't grieved before right because they've just been angry right or they've just been ashamed a classic example is a death I mean how many times do people think well that can't be still affecting me it was X number of years ago but they've never actually grieved because they carry in them oh it was my fault right and and how many times do we hear that I should have said something different before I should have gone you know we then back map something that makes us feel bad and then from the guilt and shame comes the inability to process grief so if the person then deals with right I feel so bad about this in fact I feel so ashamed of it and I feel like it's my fault and okay well let's talk about that right after my after my brother's death by Suicide I felt responsible I I I was not involved in any way in mental health I had a business career at the time and I I finally went and saw someone I wasn't acculturated that getting therapy was something one did but I realized hey I'm not okay right so I didn't know I didn't know how right I just knew the manifestation of it which was misery and risk and you know I I could just tell like I know what it feels like to not feel like this and this is not okay so so then I you know I call the insurance number eventually I go and and and see a therapist and you know she did I'm sure she was a very good therapist but she didn't in a sense need to be in the sense that sometimes we don't need to use all the things we know we can do just something basic with someone and that's all she did with me I mean she got me talking about it and then I talked about how ashamed I was because it was my fault and then really and then she challenged me about that and then you know in a nice way but then it was became clear that I was so utterly shocked by it right far from it being foreseeable to me right that that the problem that I was having now was the shock of it and the the sense of Shame and guilt that it raised in me and then me shoving it under the surface not knowing what to do with it then it's making all sorts of misery in me and I can't actually grieve right so at some point during those sessions now I'm sad and I'm crying right and and I know what she was thinking right she good okay this is like this thank goodness this this person getting better she prob felt a sense of relief because she could see hey he's he's coming out of risk he's able to feel sadness he's able to grieve he hasn't been doing this before you know so it's it's that it's that work where if we put into it that makes a difference just as in physical health I mean if I want to be stronger or I want to be more robust like I have to go to the gym and work or I have to do something that's that's hard work and then I get the benefit of it and the same is true whether we're reflecting on our life narrative and it brings you know some difficult emotions to us or whether we're talking with someone or whether we're doing it in therapy but that's how that that process of inquiry leads us you know to take some of the gordian knots in us so to speak and and to cut them instead of trying to figure out like am I going to feel okay about myself even though I'm responsible for my brother's death because I I should have foreseen I mean that like that doesn't work right you have to like I see what that thing is and that that has to go away right and then therapy can lead us to the point where oh wasn't my fault then oh my goodness I'm sad I'd like to take a brief break and acknowledge one of our sponsors ag1 ag1 is a vitamin mineral probiotic drink that meets all of your foundational nutrition needs I started taking ag1 way back in 2012 so I'm delighted that they're sponsoring the podcast the reason I started taking ag1 and the reason I still take ag1 once or generally twice per day is that it's the easiest way for me to ensure that I'm getting all of the vitamins minerals probiotics and fiber that I need in my diet now of course it's essential to get proper nutrition from Whole Foods but most people including myself find 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self-enquiry is really powerful I've certainly experienced that in my own life and um it's an ongoing process right this is not something that one does and then stops ideally you do it forever just like physical fitness um and at the same time I know that a number of people um perhaps are wary of self-inquiry especially because of the pain points it can bring about and make conscious and that we have to really sit with um and most people would like to avoid discomfort um I'm sure there are also people who are doing quite well in life and therefore think oh you know pattern of self- inquiry all it could do it sounds like is more harm like why would I want to do that but I think we both agree that there's nothing but good and progress and more agency and gratitude to be had by going through patterns of self-inquiry I think that really highlights something very important which is that self- inquiry isn't always the right answer now I think just because things are going well that doesn't mean self- inquiry isn't the right thing to do self-inquiry is always the right thing to do if we want to understand ourselves better unless we're in a place where it can bring real risk to us so when I was trying to think about myself inquire why was I so miserable what's going on in me me I reached a point where I realize like I'm not I'm not getting myself anywhere and I'm getting worse and like this is now this is not good for me because what did the self- inquiry lead me to more guilt and shame so then at some point I sort of pull the rip cord right on like I I can't do this on my own anymore right and and that's very very important to anyone who's listening if you feel like look I don't think I'm in safe for a stable place again thoughts of self harm thoughts of hopelessness then then it probably is not or let's air on the side of being cautious right it is not a good idea then to engage in self-inquiry right first go see someone clinically right and and I know that can be hard to do in in this day and age but if we really advocate for ourselves we really push you know we really you know we we do whatever we can do to try and get in front of someone who can kind of help us understand what we may need and maybe that person helps us with the process of self-inquiry maybe that person reassures us maybe that person then tells us that we we really do need you know more care more help and then it leads to us getting that so that we can come back to the good place of being well enough for the self-inquiry I'm grateful you shared your path to working with a clinician and the fact that just focusing on something on your own wasn't really working and there was a it sounds like a requirement for a clinician to help guide you through that um it relates directly to um what I'm most curious about at this moment which is you know in the map that you established for us in episode one and that has carried through all these episodes and and by the way if people are not familiar with the map we we'll cover it um in top Contour in a little bit more depth uh in a moment here but one of the key things as or cupboards as we're referring to them uh to look in in order to exert self-care and improve one's mental health is this um notion of self-awareness of of really understanding that there's an an i a me and exploring what that's really about in the moment but also historically through narrative Etc uh also in this uh map is a cupboard that um relates to salience what's most obvious or what do we default to both internally in terms of what sorts of thoughts we default to and externally what are we focusing on in the outside world and I think I and perhaps many other people out there are wondering how to resolve any conflict between a practice that is aimed at increasing self-awareness and perhaps even drawing to mind early traumas or challenges or recent traumas or challenges and salience in other words if I were to you know take some moments or even an hour once a week and sit there and really like think about the sorts of things that I don't want to think about like that that have been gnawing at me below the surface for a very long time the stuff that I you know gained some proficiency at pushing down beneath the surface I think one fear that I have and so I have to assume other people have it as well is that if I were to bring that to mind that it would overtake a lot of my waking hours like it's like I don't want to think about this thing or those things and so now what's Salient is something negative and when I'm focused on something negative then I'm not able to be as generative as I would like you know move my life move forward toward my life goals now I I could even have the realization the the Cog understanding that okay that's but that's necessary right like this is like getting a a wound fixed or or dealing with a with a chronic injury like sooner or later you got to deal with it otherwise you're not going to be at your best but that um conflict between gaining more self-awareness and also the understanding that what is most Salient to us is kind of defines the quality of our daily life um that that conflict or friction um seems like an important thing for us to drill into a little bit absolutely and I would say this if you think there's something that you can't bring up into Consciousness because it's going to take over your mind or as people often say I'm going to curl up in a fetal position I'm going to cry and never stop that is exactly the thing you must look at because salience presents itself in a whole array of ways so if there's something inside of you that's that's strong enough right that it's throwing itself up to the surface like hey maybe want to think about me right so your unconscious mind throwing it up to the surface that is active in you and often although a lot of it happens in the unconscious mind it happens also in the conscious mind and if the person then stops and thinks how much might that thing that you are not thinking about be impacting you how might it be Salient in other ways and sometimes a person will realize like yeah that's on my mind people say oh that's on my mind yeah all this time it's like kind of on the back burner but always there and he says right what do you mean on the back burner you know that's like having a voice in the background telling you something you know very negative or very distressing and it's just one example where where often times there's a realization that that thing is actually quite Salient sometimes there isn't a realization until later oh the salience of that is that I that's how or that's why I don't let myself get ahead right it can come out later because you know we don't know how much of it is unconscious how much of it is conscious but but under the right circumstances if things are safe as we said if there's not something going on that presents risk and warrants clinical care if there's something inside of you and you think I can't let that to the surface then what that is telling you is I must let that to the surface now again we want to do it in judicious ways uh and do it in ways that are safe but that's that's the message I think it's a especially important that you mentioned that if something is gnawing at our conscious mind every once in a while then it absolutely has to be operating below the level of our conscious awareness maybe running a muck all the time the level of Consciousness yes so if ever there was a um a cause for exploring something like that um that's it right because we can't be aware of the ways that's damaging to us or limiting us again you know somebody listening to this could be doing quite well and think I'm doing great like why would I want to do any of this well uh perhaps they could be doing that much better right absolutely self-awareness and addressing one's personal narrative and a sense of eye is uh what we called cupboard one uh under the function of self now for those that listen to episodes one two or three they'll be familiar with what I'm talking about when I say a cupboard cupboard one function of self but um just for sake of getting everybody on the same page as we move forward here maybe we could just return to the map of mental health uh for a moment you know we've talked about agency and gratitude as verb States and you also described in previous episodes this key really essential concept of this generative Drive yes so if you could just take a few minutes for us and really explain what agency and gratitude are how one goes about building those up and expressing those and what the generative Drive is and then we'll return to the 10 cupboards of inquiry under the structure of self and function of self which really represent the pillars and and all the stuff that geysers up into uh the these simple but extremely powerful Concepts and ways of being which are agency and gratitude yes yes so I I really liked when you you brought the image of a geyser right to to mind because if we think about the structure of self which is one pillar and the function of self which is another pillar underneath those pillars there are the 10 cupboards we've been talking about and they represent the areas of inquiry for us because they're the aspects of the structure and function of self so that's where the answers are right the answers are in those pillars the answers are in those 10 cupboards so if we're doing that we're looking there we're honoring what we find there we're becoming healthier than that geyser right I imagine it coming out you know like the space in between the pillars right and and what it is lifting up is first empowerment and humility but empowerment and humility are qualities cly the the way and the way we're using them they're they're qualities they potential so I have impowerment as opposed to being disempowered right so I have humility instead of for example a reactive grandiosity or even a reactive self oppression right so I have these qualities of empowerment and humility and then they become enacted right they become expressed by us and I imagine writing on the top is the agency and the Gratitude is at the top of the geyser and it's moving right they're verbs we navigate life as life moves forward right I will often think like being on like the the Lou right in you see in the Olympics where the person is going down the twisting path and it's like that's us moving through life right and we all have different pathways but they can interconnect and they can cross but that's what's happening living is an active thing right so agency and gratitude are active things why because they're the ultimate expression of all underneath of it of them that's where it goes if the pillars are in the right place the Geiser can function the empowerment and humility are with us so we're engaging with ourselves with others with the world through a lens of clarity and through a lens of of knowing we can make the world a better place and knowing our role in it that's very very active and then it brings to us the peace the contentment the Delight that weaves in and out as as you describe that you will feel the peace the contentment the Delight when you're doing the solo podcasts right but you you're doing something very very active right that that's not um it's not a passive Endeavor right during which you feel all those things but that makes sense right peace doesn't mean nothingness right now it can someone who's looking out the window with the garden they planted can feel that too but but there's life going on in them also right they're they're contemplating the garden they know that they made the garden so these are all active processes because life is an active process and then we end up in this place of looking inside of us these drives within us are both deterministic and determined right so think about how active a process that is where we have a natural bias one way or another because of our genetics just like someone has a natural aptitude to be taller and someone shorter or to be more or less athletic right we have potential within us when the genetics come together right and and that may determine some sort of set of parameters so so maybe someone who doesn't have the the blessings of being so athletic perhaps myself right right I I'm not going to be the world's greatest athlete right but if I work hard like I could be a lot more athletic and have been at times right and if I don't I could be a lot less athletic right so so there are potentials within us that get sort of genetically determined but have a wide array of uh of variance around them and then our choices determine where we are in that variance if I don't take care of myself I will be on the very low end of the athletic Spectrum right if I do and I cultivate myself you know I can be on a higher end for me right but still that's a lot better than the lower end there's a very big difference the same is true in our drives so so the more we're taking care of ourselves we're reinforcing the Primacy of the generative drive and then the aggression assertion proactive right that drive in US is realized as best we're going to realize it and not everyone's is going to be off the chart right and that's okay right but but that drive is in a place that lets that person take care of themselves you know have a a job they enjoy and can do well at and make their home life better whatever it is that we can do like we're more assertive we're more engaged and then that's bringing us more pleasure so the pleasure drive again it's not a hedonistic drive it's drive for things we enjoy like we enjoy safety we enjoy absence of pain but we also enjoy friends and romance and sex and food like these are things that bring us gratification and we can have that in a healthy place too so there's not too much not too little of the aggression assertion proactive drive not too much not too little of the pleasure drive and then we're in a place where we can meet where those drives are at so if the pleasure Drive is in a certain place in us we can meet that right and maybe we Foster it moving a little higher up because we're doing good things and we're taking care of ourselves so if our romance is in a better place you know then we can take more pleasure in our romance right if our physical fitness is in a better place we can enjoy that more right we can do more things so we are helping those drives to be in the optimal place to subserve the generative Drive which we are trying to optimize and maximize and that puts us in the best place to have the things under those pillars in those Cupboards in a good place and then on top of that geyser is the empowerment and the humility and then that gets enacted as agency and gratitude and we have more of the goodness of of peace and contentment and delight and that reinforces the generative drive so that's what's going on and it has never failed me yet to read or listen to someone communicating happiness either what they think it is how they found it what they're striving for what they think it philosophically is right it's all that right and it's not as as simple as a word right but because it's complex we're complex but the beauty of it all is the complexity is within us but it's not out of our reach to understand ourselves better and help ourselves and if we do that as we move further up the hierarchy it gets simpler approaching the world through agency and gratitude as verbs it's pretty straightforward that's why that's the best metric for romantic compatibility right it's not this person plays a musical instrument and that person's a mathematician so they're not compatible no more than one plays the trumpet one plays the clarinet and we assume they are compatible where are those drives at are people healthy in a healthy place we can then take the best care of ourselves engage with others in a healthy way understand who's a healthy other to engage with right get ourselves out of unhealthy situations and then we're building Health within ourselves and around ourselves and that's how at the different levels of emergence things get better so if I make myself healthier and you make yourself healthier we will be healthier as a group of two that's always how that is and if we're healthier as a group of two we can be healthier as parts of larger groups right or where if the groups aren't healthy we're pushing towards greater Health right we're engendering health and that's how we see Health grow until it can be manifest even on a cultural level where we're taking better care of ourselves we're less punitive we're less rushing forward as a society and trampling the vulnerable right and we realize oh I could be the vulnerable right I care about other people even if I don't know them because I can understand and empathize with what it feels like to be vulnerable and furthermore I could be among the vulnerable so we behave differently as a culture and that's what we're searching for on an individual level all the way up to a cultural level I have several questions um but first I want to just uh highlight what you said about relational structure relationships and the fact that um as was explored in episode three and you made so clear and it just makes so much sense most of what people explore for when looking for a romantic partner or determining whether or not their existing romantic relationship could be better or not is focused on the wrong things right these these very kind of superficial Notions of what people enjoy and even level of Education some of which can really matter but that's not the critical issue at hand and that the maps that the two individuals have and the extent to which they are expressing their generative Drive um and agency and gratitude is far far more important and so for those that haven't heard episode 3 and are interested in relationships not just romantic relationships but relationships of all kinds work family relationship to self friendship I highly highly recommend listening to that conversation because it's um it's truly spectacular in terms of its actionable takeaways uh in by actional well I mean actions of course behaviors and and also modes of thinking that can really uh serve people I also just want to make one clarification that um I I believe that when you said hierarchy went when you said move up the hierarchy um you were referring to the hierarchy within the within the map that's been laid out here right as opposed to I don't want people to get um uh mistakenly uh distracted by the the possibility we're talking about some sort of like external social hierarchy um so I just want to clarify that and that's actually a perfect jumping off place for um going into the map with a little bit more uh depth and detail um and exploring these cupboards that reside um at the lower levels of the map and that are quite complex okay so for those of you listening who have not yet gone in access to the PDF that we put in the show note captions um you can do that at any point but what we're talking about is a bunch of things down at the bottom uh under these two pillars structure of self and function of self these cover cupboards excuse me that are extremely valuable for any and all of us to look in and explore and ask specific questions because it's what resides within those covers words that combine in a sort of recipe and then geyser up into whether or not and how much empowerment humility agency gratitude peace contentment delight and generative drive we are able to uh exert and um and experience for ourselves in life so imagine in your minds if you will um and here I'm borrowing directly from a a picture model that uh Dr kti provided um before the filming of this series which is an iceberg where below the surface of the water resides a bunch of stuff and then a little bit is above the water and maybe you'll help us revisit that model now for a few moments but if you take nothing away at this moment um please understand that there's a lot of complex stuff going on underneath the surface of the brain and mind but a key feature of this map is that while it is very very complex underneath what emerges from that complexity gets simpler and simpler especially as we move towards places of Better Health and more Effectiveness in life um so if you would could you you know describe the map in a bit more detail especially what's down there in these pillars the complex stuff and and the stuff that we should be looking at and then we'll touch on some of those cupboards that we all have and the sorts of questions that we should all be asking in the context of some uh common challenges but also some very common and very effective paths to doing and feeling better mhm mhm yes yes no the the unconscious mind is the place to start because that's the deepest level of the structure of self so imagine imagine sitting on top of a biological supercomputer the size of a house right that's what's going on inside of us right the unconscious mind is that biological supercomputer and if we're interested in ourselves right we become very very curious about what is going on in it and and that's where even though it's not directly accessible to us it can be accessible through other ways such as we talked about reflection or therapy and of course there are other ways too but it is accessible to us and we want to know what is in it because what it is in it has such a strong effect on what's going on in our conscious mind right that's the the person on top of the biological supercomputer the size of a house or the the the image we've been using is the top of the iceberg that's coming out of the water so we can look at that either way but what is in it has of course a huge effect on the part that we're aware of our conscious mind and and I think the best analogy here it's actually I think quite a an analogy that parallels very well is to an abscess in the field of Physical Medicine so an abscess is an area of Walled off infection right so imagine that there's some infection for example it's often in the abdomen okay there's there's some infection and that infection could be really dangerous right if that infection spread boy it could go to the blood that the person could uh could die from that right so the body does a really good job of Walling off that infection right and then that's a good thing right because if the infection weren't walled off it poses huge risk but the walled off infection does not represent a condition of health so someone who has an abcess in them and doesn't know it this happens frequently in medicine and we see people coming to emergency rooms and you know they have a low-grade fever and they've had a low-grade fever for a while and they just don't feel good and they have low energy and they're not sleeping well and they find themselves sweating a lot there are pervasive experiences going on that are really detracting from life like not feeling great all the time even though the person doesn't feel really sick that's sometimes why it takes a while for the person to come to medical attention so what's going on is better than not being walled off but it is not synonymous with health so what happens in Physical Medicine abscess is identified and then someone goes in a surgeon goes in and drains it and then the person is better right now think about that process like surgery surgery is not like a fun thing right there's anesthesia there's recovery right but surgery is great when it cures the problem right so it's not that oh the the the physician in the emergency room or the Family Practice doc identifies that there's an abscess refer to the surgeon everything is great and happy and they're better no they have to go have a surgery and that's not an easy thing right but if they go and do that on the other side the infection actually is gone so they do not have the symptoms that it was constantly spinning off inside inside of them and they also don't have the risk that maybe that infection gets out of the abscess and and their their life is then at risk so the the parallel is looking into the unconscious mind to what is inside of us that may be acting like that abscess even though this is an analogy it is not theoretical like this happens all the time and the abscess inside that person emotionally may be the bullying that went on right around the time of puberty right it may be that awful boss who is just so mean and like took that good job away from me right it might be that it might be you know that assault that I don't want to think about that's really still with me it might be that death I still feel guilty about I don't know what it is right but if there's an abscess in there we want to understand it and then fix it cure it right and that's what the therapy process can do and that's why at times the therapy is unpleasant you know the crying and the anger you know that's the parallel of going through the surgery right but on the other side we've dissipated the energy inside of it like we've we've we've taken care of it and and that's why it is so important to go into the unconscious mind if there are things that are really troubling us or if we don't know what's going on to cast a net of inquiry that may lead us there because trauma is so common and we shove trauma underneath the surface because of the guilt and shame that it generates and then it stays in us like an abscess and Spins off symptoms they could be symptoms of diffidence they could be symptoms of overusing a substance they could be symptoms of avoiding good things in our life but they're they're pervasive symptoms that are really harmful to us that we can understand and fix in addition to Quality therapy what are some other ways to access the unconscious earlier we were talking about journaling and spelling out one's life narrative in written or in spoken form either alone or with a trusted other let's assume that somebody either can't afford or is just not at the place where they're willing to do therapy yet um but they fully adopt this abscess model that uh or this abscess analogy um that you described which I think is an exceptional one because um a you have the you know 20 plus years of clinical experience knowing this exists but also um I think we all at some level kind of understand that there's stuff happening within us that we can't explain and and I as a neuroscientist can absolutely say that you know most of the neural Machinery in your head uh and the parts of it that are in your body like we don't have access to it right we love to think that we do but but we don't it's just clicking away under there so let's say somebody wants to um make some progress really improve their level of of mental health more obtain more agency and gratitude it improve all aspects of their life and the generative Drive what are some ways that they can start to tap into the unconscious um and my guess is if it's not in therapy it's going to be by looking at some in some of these other coverboards as you're describing them right yes develop and embrace curiosity about yourself right and if you can go for that Curiosity being dispassionate right in in in the sense that you know you talk about these files you have with your with uh memories and events from your past like that's so good right because you're exploring your life right so so someone who who wants to understand themselves better do that for yourself go look at pictures talk to people you knew at different stages of life reflect upon how you behaved at different stages of Life what you felt inside anchor yourself to memories and then extrapolate from there become curious about yourself and if you can be dis passionate this idea that sometimes gets called an observing ego right there are other words to put to it but it's it's not ego in a negative sense right here it means the ability to stand outside of oneself and go right and to really think about oneself without the negative emotion we're often able to either see the trauma for example or see the change like huh why did I go from feeling really good about myself and like I felt like I could do anything and then just a couple years later man I look at me I'm mopy in the pictures and you know and then like yeah I was drinking more I stopped taking care of myself like that's a pretty big change right and then so so now like we're calling attention what's that change and a lot of times the person knew it you know like oh I got rejected I that terrible breakup right and like they all they knew it was a terrible breakup but they keep shoving it under the surface maybe they didn't know it was a terrible breakup maybe they can't figure out what it is like that's okay right even if they recognize look there was a change then that will put the lie to what in this example is likely going on so that person likely frames themselves in a way that is very negative and always was true right so so I can never achieve anything I never feel good no one likes me I can't find a partner whatever it is we say to ourselves the person thinks it's always been that way right because the negative emotion is so strong and that part of our brain doesn't care about the clock in the calendar and then the person goes back and thinks it was not always that way right and it comes to this a lot in therapy it doesn't have to be as you said in therapy but no you know I was a go-getter right I'm thinking of the person who said that I was a goget her and I went out there and did things which put the lie to her saying that she was lazy incapable all those things that were not true but she accepted as truth right so she needed from that mathematical perspective like to go back and question the giv right from our perspective we're saying go look in the unconscious mind go look in that part of the pillar of the structure of self go look there that's the deepest part the most complicated part but it doesn't mean we can't understand it and if we start to gain understanding then we can think more about the conscious mind like what wait a second what am I thinking about what do I think about that right have I really thought about this or is it just running over and over in my head what would I like to do about it maybe I'd like to learn more maybe I want to go get a book that I think could help me listen to another podcast that could help me talk to a friend like maybe I want to do those things so now the flow between the unconscious mind and the conscious mind right becomes much more robust and that lets us look further right to look at the next level up the defense mechanisms that grow up out of the unconscious mind and and we can have some understanding of them even though they're unconscious right so the idea of wait what when that when something shifted in me how did my way of engaging with the world kind of change you know like I was perseverant and um you know I would take some of that energy in me that wasn't so good and remember I could put it into like exercising taking care of myself and then you know then that sort of shifted and I became sarcastic and cynical and you know I started avoiding you know those of my friends who are really taking care of themselves and doing well because that made me feel worse about myself so so that's a dialogue that is reflective of defense mechanisms now the person isn't going to necessarily say oh I used a lot of sublimation which is good and then I started using reaction formation and avoidance just as an example right but they're going to understand that in in words that they can whatever words they put to it they understand that there's a change they can start putting they put words to that they can understand that process of change it's not opaque they're Shining Light on it and now they can gain a better understanding of it and they can change it even that realization that I was much more functional things were different I mean that can be a treasure Trove of very relevant very important and very positive information to bring to the current situation I think we often Romance the idea of the person who can just live life forward who doesn't look back right who just doesn't really explore their past is just action oriented because after all when we wake up in the morning all we can control is our actions going forward we can't rescript the actions of past ours or others right that is such a good point of what happens when we're just looking forward right we become like a sprinter who comes out of the blocks too fast right so if you think about the the beginning of a 100 100 meter dash right they're the best sprinters in the world say right and there they are in the blocks and if they come out of those blocks in the right way they will gain momentum they will keep their form and they will run as fast as they can but if they do not pay attention to what is behind them the blocks that are supporting their body right the whole bigger picture here of the limitations within the body right they have to know what those limitations are they have to understand themselves that's how they avoid coming out of the block so fast and then sprawling headlong onto the track and we see that happen too so if we're just looking forward and thought an idea that's how to live life we will be tripping forward and ultimately we'll be like that Sprinter no matter how great a sprinter if you come out of the blocks too fast you're going to trip forward yes I know I said this in a different form a few minutes ago but I think a lot of people are afraid of self-inquiry because they just don't want the thing that discover which resides in their unconscious the abscess if you will or the uh the damaging thought or thing that happened which they are aware of but are pushing down to take over their daily life in a way that doesn't allow them to be at least as functional as they are in the moment if you go visit the person who had the abscess cured by the surgeon on posttop day one that person will be less functional right they'll be in a hospital bed right they won't be able to get up out of the bed they won't be able to exercise they're going to feel they're not going to feel their best right that's okay right it is okay that we at times can become intermittently say less functional right in the sense that we're more upset and I'm spending more time crying right that's okay because that's part of the energy the effort the choice that gets us to a better place okay so it's clear to me why exploring the unconscious mind can be and really is immensely valuable it's just I'm convinced and um I can't imagine anyone out there who would disagree with the idea that getting better mentally being able to function better in the world as a consequence is not a terrific use of one's time even if it uh you know at the surface seems to take us off course a bit in the in the moment or uh for even a few days and I think it's also uh worth highlighting that it's not the case that if we do an exploration of the conscious mind or look in any of these covers for that matter that our entire day is going to be overtaken by it or all of our sleep is going to disappear I mean we're not talking about um a process in which everything is devoted to exploring these cupboards I mean there are instances of course where someone hits a crisis and they they simply can't function but in that case the thing they absolutely need to do is to look in these covers yes what are some ways that we can explore this other cupboard under the pillar of structure of self uh which is the cupboard of of the conscious mind mhh so we can also approach this through the the Curiosity of self right we do a lot of things automatically right that we can stop and think about like why do I do that thing right and it's amazing what that can provide right so for example I'm I'm working with a person who has been going to work for a long long long long long long time right didn't need to go to work a long time ago right and there's so many other things this person wants to do with their life they're curious about things they want to spend more time with older people in their family right but they had to stop and think why am I going to work right now he's fortunate enough that he doesn't have to he also earned you know he's he's hardw working he's diligent he's fortunate but he hadn't thought about it he's been going to work automatically for a long time and it was the thinking about it that that made him realize I I do that automatically why because it's rooted in in unconscious things but that he's now bringing to the conscious mind right because I value hard work and I value diligence right but him stop working doesn't mean that he's not you know he's not innately hardworking or diligent he showed that for years and years and years and he can show it in other ways like by you know how he wants to be attentive to older people who need help like there's a lot he can do but he had to go back and look and then of course there's a reason why he didn't realize it right and even though it's not even a bad reason but but clearly there was then an overvalue of hardworking diligent and he didn't realize oh I like I've done that right I've done enough that I've convinced myself like I know I'm hardworking I know I'm diligent it's like I don't have to sort of serve that internal Master anymore and I can step away and now his whole life has changed but how the change come about by asking what might one might think is such a simple question to make no sense like why do I go to work each day why have I been going he he's off on the road to change so so that's it's one aspect of of how we can explore the the conscious mind it often lead us back to the unconscious mind right but it's awareness of our conscious choices right we can also then use tactics so for example cognitive behavioral tactics like thought redirection like if I'm aware that hey there's a thought that comes into my mind a lot and I start learning ways I can redirect away from it instead of thinking about it a hundred times right and if I learn how to do that there's less sort of negative emotion that comes from thinking about it and and like I can start to feel better right it's the basic premise of it but these are techniques that can really help us and they involve understanding and guiding the conscious mind I'm smiling because um recalling an experience I had I have a female friend who very impressive person really uh as over Comon uh is a recovered alcoholic for many years um and takes at least by my reget great care of herself and the other people around her and it's spectacular sense of humor and a bunch of other things but it's probably five six years ago that we were in conversation about something I don't recall what and out of apparently nowhere she she said I hate being busy and it just stopped me in my tracks because I'm somebody who um keeps very very busy and my schedule is extremely full with things that I really enjoy some things I don't enjoy or enjoy less but um fortunately at this point in my life mostly things that I enjoy at the time I was very very busy with many things including many things I didn't enjoy and her statement just halted me and I realized you maybe I don't have to be busy like like what this whole notion of doing a bunch of things I don't want to do like sure we have to make our way in the world and make a living and take care of ourselves and others but but I realized that there was a lot of extra stuff that I was doing right because I think what she meant and what you were reflecting on was I hate being automatically busy right right it's not good to be automatically busy and then it makes you think about wait how am I busy in ways that are good for me and how am I busy in ways that are not am I just taking up time you know to avoid something you start really thinking about it yes and the conversation stays with me to this day because up until then I never really thought about the possibility that some or a lot of the things I was doing were truly a waste of my time like mostly because I could be putting that energy into generative things right generative drives things that would bring me agency gratitude peace contentment Delight yes these sorts of things what I'm giving as an example I realize is quite different than sitting down in a chair and asking oneself questions about uh oneself and and one's schedule and what one's doing same end but right same end point and and I bring it up because um I think it was the fact that it stopped me in my tracks but also the fact that I can't seem to forget it that means that it must have had significance and and I would say has had significance because you know I think most people are familiar with um seeing these uh news articles that come out you know you know woman or man you know4 reflects on what really mattered in life and it's it's almost always the same things it's like close relationships what you know no one on their deathbed says I wish I spent more time at work I might be one exception I actually really enjoy my work so whenever I see that one I always think no like my life without my life's work it would have been a diminished life for me um I think there are others out there as well but I think it's very hard for us to place ourselves into the future of a person on our deathbed looking back and then make really good decisions now I think there are ways to do that but it seems that it's far more powerful to just think about what am I doing now and and make some you know and come to some realizations about what is really a value now and what is of less value or no value now and then make adjustments now as opposed to doing the deathbed exercise you have no other option if you're going to make change I mean think about what a complicated and ultimately meaningless exercise it is to try and project ahead into a future when one is on one's deathbed and it's like what is that like like I mean we when we can't imagine that and we don't know who's there like whatever that situation may be for any of us it's not going to be what we imagine so then we just make something up and we try and what extrapolate our lives in a way that that gets us to this place where we're on our deathbed and we're not unhappy okay it just brings us right Back to the Future like because it's actually simple right that is so complicated what are things going to be like on our deathbed what will happen between now and then all things I don't know so it's impossibly complicated so then you take it back to the to the present right like what is it I'm choosing I am the ey right now that is moving through time or is on the Lou of life or whatever we want to say so what am I choosing right now that's how we make our lives better and we're aware of course I know there's a future I want to lead towards a better future I I can't I don't have a crystal ball I can't Envision what that's going to be but I can do my best now to guide my life as best I can and that's going to have to lead me to the best future what whatever all the variables are that I don't know yet the next cupboard under the pillar of structure of self uh is defense mechanisms I have several questions about defense mechanisms but the first question is can we be aware of our defense mechanisms and is there value in that and if so which defense mechanisms are accessible to us and I guess the third question would be how does one go about exploring defense mechanisms MH well it's sort of Fantastical imagery right that there's this Iceberg right part is underwater part is above water and then from the part that's underwater come these sort of branches right so so the way I imagine it is there they're branches of ice that can be clear and have light pass through them in a way that has High Fidelity right or they can be sort of Twisted and unclear and they distort the light that passes through them now they Rise Up from the unconscious mind meaning defenses are unconscious they're automatic but they're not outside of our ability to go looking for them right they're in the unconscious mind so so it's not that we can't understand them it's that they're Elusive and there has to be a process of inquiry but we can learn about them just like we can learn about other things in the unconscious mind and and here again knowledge is power so I'm not going to learn anything new or I'm unlikely to learn anything new about my defense mechanisms if I don't think about them right but if I start to think about them then I can start to learn things and to draw conclusions you know how am I behaving now as opposed to before do I notice that like how I'm coping we'll all been think coping but coping is conscious but we can access that how am I coping what am I doing and what does it mean so so for example someone who after some difficult experience right then starts avoiding right can be doing that without an awareness of it avoidance is a defense so avoidance of situations or people or potential negative emotion right so self-reflection can help us understand which defense mechanisms we're using and what may have changed in us so an example and example we see all the time is someone who say had as a primary defense mechanism sublimation before some difficult event and sublimation is taking energy taking say excess aggression turning it into something positive right it's it's a good way of handling distress within us it's healthy right and now after some change in their life they find that say they're drinking more and they're they're they're relying more and more on alcohol and you might say Well they're soothing with alcohol yes they're soothing with alcohol in one sense but what else might that mean right and often times what you'll see is maybe the person is using alcohol because they're mad at someone they're punishing someone that's someone is probably them they get to have the short-term soothing but then to feel worse about themselves the next day right and the alcohol is in part A search for soothing but it's in part an acting out against the self which is a different kind of defense mechanism that is not healthy so the process of reflection or of inquiry can help us understand the branches that are coming up from the iceberg from the unconscious mind how are they in me are they arranged in a way that's sort of elegant and and they're clear and the light is passing through them or are there things that have become sort of Twisted okay what is that what exactly is that how do I go change that right I don't want that branch that is sort of opaque and that the light can't get through or is distorted like so so I can go look at that because even though defense mechanisms are unconscious if I'm working on myself I can take away that so to speak diseased Branch right or that Branch That's not healthy and put in its place something healthier that's how we can change our defensive structure right those branches of our defense mechanisms because even though they're unconscious right we can reflect on them bring them to to Consciousness and then bring ourselves to Bear to make ourselves healthier and it can indeed get healthier and as it gets healthier it affects the next level around it which is the person's character structure so remembering we're using Fantastical imagery right because around the iceberg below and above the water and the branches that come out of the part of the iceberg under the water and how they array themselves we're imagining that there's a nest that's encompassing all of that the unconscious mind the conscious mind the defense mechanisms and that Nest is the character structure it's a way that we contain and Define the self that rides on top of everything it is into that Nest that the self Settles and from which the self grows because the character structure it's more than just the conscious mind it's s of the conscious mind in action the defense mechanisms in action all the things that are going on underneath the surface in the unconscious mind in action and then that's how we be you think be as an active word right that's how we are or that's how we actively be in the world how we're engaging with the world so you describe the character structure as the nest that is up above the surface of the water and uh that includes things like these unconscious defenses and uh all other aspects uh of what comes from below then you also said that the self ourselves reside in that nest and you and I don't recall the exact wording but you said something to the extent of you know the self grows within that Nest yes and as you said that I immediately had had the image in Mind of a nest that is either incredibly nurturing and can really Foster the self in its best ways and can give rise to empowerment humility agency gratitude peace contentment Delight generative drive all these wonderful things I also imagined a nest that um you know isn't as clean as it could be or that has some holes in it um or that um isn't stable in the wind and these sorts of things um is that sort of imagery that's coming to mind for me is is that a decent way to conceptualize this yes and I think this is a this it is a very important point the self nests in the character structure hey and from nesting in the character structure it grows we are the self that grows from within that nest and that tells us a couple of things one I am something now right like right now the things I've done the things I've thought the things that have happened to me like there's a self now so so one might think then what grows out of the nest right is what I am now hence the concept of acceptance of self that's what I am now right but I am also responsible for tending what is growing I'm responsible for weeding it right I'm responsible for planting healthy seeds in it and I think that captures the truth of the acceptance of ourselves this is what I am now this is who I am now but isn't it beautiful that I can tend and nurture it and and we know as you'd commented what happens if you don't tend it there's a lot of weeds things aren't going well things start to get unstable I mean that's not good and we can go that way too right that's where agency gratitude you part of how it all Cycles through right because our unconscious mind is still working like it's all still happening and that's how we tend that Garden of the self so to speak that's how we best tend it so that what grows up from it is a self that we recognize in the way that we want to recognize ourselves we see a self that we can feel proud of we see a self that we understand well enough to guide forward we see a self for which we have enough respect and humility within us to understand that we don't understand everything and it's from that self that we engage with the world I've heard many times before kind in the circles of you know psychology and self-help and um elsewhere that you know we need to all learn to mother and father ourselves to some extent and I'm not a developmental psychologist but my understanding is that the unconscious mind the conscious mind our defense mechanisms the character structure all the stuff that makes up The Nest which the self resides and hopefully can grow our at least at some stage of Life perhaps all stages of Life determined by genetics and by how we were raised nature and nurture but this phrase we have to learn to parent ourselves it is thrown around a lot these days certainly on social media but elsewhere too and uh oftentimes that brings to mind um sort of stereotypes of mothering and fathering and these stereotypes break down quite a bit these days um things like you know we have to be nurturing to ourselves you know self- resect self- Lov self- protection right healthy self- protection and these kinds of things um and all of that sounds fine and good but it's always seemed uh rather vague to me like you know if I'm telling myself uh I'm okay or you know is that is that mothering and fathering myself like I I don't know I mean um it it doesn't seem as concrete as as perhaps I would like and others would like because um because it's not spelled out to specific actionables what you're describing here makes so much more sense to me even though some of these concepts are a bit abstract because the idea of this nest in which the self resides and and emerges from character structure um one can immediately see why it's so valuable and it's such a key component of mental health and self-care to tend to that nest and written into that is the fact that the nest is malleable that we really can make changes right that we can create a better internal environment for oursel by going through these coverboards you're pointing out another crucial Factor here which is if I Am The Garden of self that grows up from all of it and I am responsible for tending the garden I'm also responsible for tending to the whole structure and that's so important if I'm going to take care of myself in the ways that we've talked about I'm gonna tend not just to the Garden that's growing out that I can see on the surface but I'm going to attend to All of Me to the entire structure of self an example here that I think can illustrate it pretty well is so imagine a person who's doing well you know the the part of the iceberg under the water is solid right the Consciousness on top is solid the defense mechanisms are clear the nest is good the garden of self is flourishing and then there's a significant trauma to that person there's a car accident someone is hurt there's a death of someone around them they have a serious illness they lose a job right it can even be they spent too much time contemplating and looking at news from murders around the world and all the awful things that we can spend too much time with something traumatic then goes into the unconscious mind right the trauma happens and what often happens not always but what very often happens is the guilt and shame that are raised cause us to push the the trauma underneath the surface now that's in the unconscious mind and it's impacting it and that stability is threatened right I mean it's all riding on top of this giant part of the iceberg that's underneath the surface of the water and okay we don't have to worry too much about it right if things are going well but if it starts to get fragmented it starts to shift it threatens everything that rides on top of it which is why taking care of ourselves means taking care of all elements of the structure of self that all makes very clear why tending to the Garden is so key and why we as individuals are really the people most fit to do this right of course when one can that work should be done with somebody who's a really terrific clinician to help guide that process and where one can't work with a clinician one would hope that they would take a structured approach to this which is really um what we're talking about here and in the other episodes yeah and keeping in mind can keeping in mind that tending to the self means tending to the whole structure of self right if we keep that in mind we won't go wrong right we'll pay attention to the surface but we'll pay attention to the things that are under the surface we pay attention to the whole structure of self we will Shepherd ourselves forward as best we can I'd love for you to tell us about the function of self the second pillar that resides alongside structure of self and that serves to geyser up into how we show up in the world hopefully with empowerment humility agency and gratitude but sometimes no and as we've established uh there is always always always tremendous value to exploring these covers so how does one go about exploring the different cupboards under the function of self and we should probably start that conversation by um saying what are the cupboards under the function of self MH I'll start off by saying all the cupboards under the function of self will reference the structure of self right which makes sense there's a structure and the function arises from the from the structure it's good for us to have that in mind as we're thinking about the elements of the function of self so the deepest element let's say the the the bottom of the pillar right is self-awareness right the sense of an eye right on top of that next up the pillar are defense mechanisms in action right up from that is salience what we're paying attention to inside and out the next level above that is behavior and on top of that is our strivings so if we go back to the the bottom layer the deepest most complicated layer it's the sense of self-awareness the sense of an eye and there are a lot of ways that we can foster selfawareness so like the unconscious mind in the structure we can't just go there and fully understand what the eye is but we can do things that can really really help us so for me thinking about like what am I and how am I navigating the world and having in mind the structure of self like wait there's an unconscious mind working it away in me there's my conscious mind even being aware of the first pillar can be part of fostering the self-awareness of the second pillar another way that can happen is self-reflection for some people it can happen in meditation contemplation of the self right there are many ways that we can help ourselves understand that living is an active process that idea of the Lou of time and we're you know we're moving down it it's an active process and that is the eye that I'm guiding through that process we can foster self-awareness in a number of ways but what we're trying to do here the same as with the the bottom of the structure of self- pillar the most complicated Parts there's a lot that's unconscious there's a lot that's unknown to us so what we're trying to do is know some of it right and know more of it over time bring some of those automatic or unconscious things to conscious awareness so that we can have a better understanding because if we have an understanding we can utilize that to make everything better I can see right off how this first covered of self-awareness and an exploration of the eye is so critical and realizing that we have a physical body that we have agency in the world to do at least certain things um and in an earlier episode you mentioned uh a practice actually of of looking in the mirror and focusing on this reality that we have a physical body we reside in it and then we have agency we can do things in the world as a way to reinforce self-awareness um such an interesting practice and one that I I start started on immediately after well that evening yeah and the next morning uh after hearing it from you some interesting things came to mind and I encourage people to try it it's it's uh done eyes open for just for a few minutes or so two three minutes in my case um some interesting uh understanding came about especially when coupled with thinking about you know some of my life narrative and things that have happened so I highly recommend people explore this this practice you described I'm also interested in the sorts of narrative that we have about ourselves um I think everyone has narratives uh about what they're good at what they're less good at what's happened to them why it's happened to them um could you tell us what you think about exploring our narratives right not just exploring fact that we have a physical body but exploring our our stories about ourselves well self-awareness is just the awareness of an eye right so we can use our conscious mind to help that right so so this this aspect of function of self isn't about what the narrative means right that comes later this is about the awareness of an eye so when you were talking about the narrative you said something along the lines of like there stories and and you're not thinking of like oh that's it's the same me in in these stories if if you approach the narrative in a different way the awareness like there's an I right there's a me like I'm the point of all these stories right that's why they're here they're all in me in some way or another because I remember them and they're important enough that I wrote them down if you look at it that way where you're just apprehending an I like huh there's a me to whom all of this applies that's how we can use the conscious mind and the narrative in order to Foster self-awareness it's not yet about meaning it's about the awareness of an eye so it's actually much simpler than I'm making it out to be that's some level at that level yes got it yes okay well then at some point we will return to this um theme of narratives narratives that serve us perhaps narratives that don't serve us uh meanwhile take us into that second bin under the function of self the the defense mechanisms in action I find these infinitely fascinating and I think many other people do too because um sublimation uh denial these kinds of things I you know they really provide so much of what does and doesn't happen to each of us and um yeah so if you if you could tell us how we can think about our defense mechanisms in action in a way that can improve our health yeah yeah and of course defense mechanisms are under the structure of Mind defense mechanisms in action are under function of mind right they're unconscious processes that we can gain sometimes a very good understanding of by directing our conscious mind towards them and this is a place where we can use narratives right we can use an understanding of self so as an example someone who's thinking about themselves and what they want to do for a living if they want their job or where they want to live and you know who's thinking about self can realize you know I just going to feel good when I'm doing something for someone when we hear this a lot especially people who then direct themselves towards helping professions like what did I like about that job it wasn't that it had a great salary it wasn't that the hours were good you know I like that it was really helpful to people or or you know there were people that were underneath of me in the hierarchy that I could really kind of nurture right and I think right and I love putting food out for the birds and the squirrs like it can be a realization of self that guides us towards consciously apprehending and thinking about altruism as a defense mechanism right because altruism is a defense it's a healthy defense where if you can do something good you do something good make something good that's the end point of it like you don't need that to translate into something else it's a defense mechanism it's a good one and you can certainly see how it fits with the good things we're trying to build on top of it and sometimes through that process of reflection the person becomes aware of that they haven't chosen jobs by the obvious things that even they thought they chose jobs by where is the job what does it pay but it wasn't that that what they really valued and what they then started choosing upon might have been something that they weren't aware of until they think about it and that leads them to the defense mechanism the same way another example could be rationalization right someone who thinks about their life and they think you know I always kind of tell myself something is better than it is right and then ultimately I got disappointing myself you know like I tell myself like you're doing really well at work and you know I'm not really working hard enough and then when I have that review I feel lousy you know and that last person who broke up with me and said you know you just weren't being a reliable partner or you know that person was right right and that can Le to oh like what's going on I always think things are going pretty well when they're not and that's guiding us towards rationalization as a defense mechanism and again a person doesn't have to say ah I conclude I using rationalization as a defense mechanism but there can be words put to that of seeing a pattern in the self with his when this is done as part of therapeutic inquiry we're often looking to identify the defense mechanisms and that can be great too but it's not always needed right defense mechanisms result in patterns right so if a person just sees the pattern that can be enough to recognize the pattern and either say follow the pattern of altruism as a defense mechanism or how do we work against how do I work against the pattern of rationalization is a defense mechanism can we conclude that patterns that we don't like are the reflection of unhealthy defense mechanisms and that patterns that we like are the consequence of healthy defense mechanisms usually yes it's worth some thought and some reflection and putting together like what exactly are the the pieces of that but basically the answer to that is yes in an earlier episode you mentioned one defense mechanism in action that is often observed in people is acting out you know this uh immediately sounds like an unhealthy defense mechanism um so to keep with this concept of the patterns are often more observable than are the underlying defense mechanisms would it be the case for instance that um if somebody uh you know has a repeated set of failures like that's that's a pattern or is um repeatedly in friction in a particular relationship in their life like maybe even just with one person like all other relationships are going great but then there're in a lot of friction with this one other person so there's a pattern from that pattern they could explore uh What uh I mean is it important that they get to a uh verbal identification of the defense mechanism or um you know what what sorts of steps would one take going from a recognition of the pattern to understanding of the defense mechanism perhaps in a way that moves them forward right the understanding of the defense mechanism can be very helpful but isn't always needed right if you can recognize a maladaptive pattern like oh this is happening a lot and it's not good for me you know you you become able to change that pattern right so understanding the defense can be helpful I mean again the more understanding the better but it's not always necessary here I think to understand the the defense mechanism we should first Define acting out because we think of acting out just hearing the words as something that's volitionally done right but that's not what we're talking about right defense mechanisms are unconscious so there's an automaticity to the response that the person can see by reflection because this isn't conscious choice to act out that's something different that's bad behavior right but what we're talking about here is the thing that's automatic and unconscious until we bring it into our conscious mind and acting out isn't always dramatic either so so here's one example right so let's say in a a relationship situation right you have one person who always does the dishes other person does something different right that person does the dishes right and you know it's honorous people have busy lives it's honorous to have to do a lot of dishes and and every time like things aren't going so well there's a little bit of conflict between them right the other person makes twice as many dirty dishes right this is exactly the kind of thing that happens in relationship situations where this little thing becomes a little crack in the door that opens more and then there's a foot in the door now there's a big problem because we act out in these ways that we're not aware of so again the person isn't deciding I'm going to do that so that that that person has to do more work but there's an automaticity to it and and upon reflection sometimes a person could realize I'm doing that right or this a real example person who realizes I just make much more difficult difficulties right around the house like I make a lot more difficulties for my partner was like whoa you know like this person doesn't want to be doing that right that's not they love that person they don't want to be doing that but by realizing that when they can bring a process of change just being more self-aware and saying look I don't want to do that I don't want that to be a defense anymore if I have conscious awareness now I can control it and maybe that person is doing that other places Maybe person is you know it kind of goes that way at work too you know I could contribute to a project and make something easier on a person and I realize I don't do that right if I'm if I'm feeling some negative way then we can go find okay what might the roots of that be did a for example did a parent role model that behavior right was that done to them where the parent was really good to them if they were behaving in the right way and like they make their breakfast right and if not well you know you make it yourself or oh sorry there's no milk I me like these things happen and then the person gets in them some array of circumstances feelings responses all the stuff that goes on in the unconscious mind that then throws up to the surface this kind of acting out as a defense mechanism so I think it's it's important to point out and it's a good example because it is unconscious and a lot of times how we're doing it is not dramatic what about sance you know this cupboard under the function of self that I think we are all all too familiar with uh you know like what we pay attention to internally and externally um I have a sort of bizarre meditative practice that I've talked about before on the podcast I don't know why I came up with this but it's more of a perceptual exercise that I do from time to time where if I feel like I'm too in my head I literally Focus my visual attention outward I try and place it on a horizon or some object out there um and other times if I'm sort of in the world too much and I want to get back into myself I'll you know close my eyes and do a moment or two or more of more traditional what traditional mean what people think of as meditation the the practice involves setting aside a minute or two and deliberately stepping through uh closed eye meditation like just it's not really meditation again it's it's just recogniz I'm a self like here contained within my the skin of my body then I open my eyes I look at my hand this all sounds very silly as I describe it but but and then I think about a bridge like my perception can split between my awareness of self internally and my hand then I look out some distance 10 12T or so um and do the same I so bridge to self-aware bridge self-awareness with external awareness and I step out to the Horizon and then I sometimes like to do the exercise of um it goes with a popular meme you know this we're just like this like pale blue dot I think about myself it in in right here but then the fact that I'm on a planet that's like spinning in a you know in in space and and then right back into myself and then I go about my day um uh and I developed that a few years ago more on the basis of what I know about visual perception and interception our recognition of inside versus exter reception just fancy language for recognition and perception of what's outside but um that's my practice of of orienting myself in life um because then I feel like I have a better buffers against what happens around me and how much I'm reacting or not reacting that's my my practice um I don't I have a feeling it it touches into a few of these bins um but not but it certainly doesn't get at at you know approaching a specific problem or um thinking about where problems might exist beneath the surface that I'm not aware of right because it's only one part of the equation it's paying attention to saling see what you're doing then you're grounding yourself in order to change salience right and and that is a strategy you said oh maybe it's or this or that no it's an it's an understood and known strategy for example variations of that are are what people can do to prevent panic attacks right to change the salience if the salience is I'm going inside of me and I'm feeling panicked and I just you know I just have a feeling of awfulness right you can change that salience by grounding yourself to the world around you right we tell people place your place your hands on the table look at the specifics of exactly what time it is look at the shape of a door knob right ground yourself so that you can change salience because now as we move up the hierarchy of of function of self we're getting to using the conscious mind right things that are Salient to us can be external they can be internal and if they're internal they can be conscious and sometimes they're unconscious so it's not all about the conscious mind but we're bringing the conscious mind to Bear here to think about saliens which combined with everything else can help us see what's under the surface most of the time what we're doing is that act of self observation right what is going on inside of me which can be what am I thinking this is how the person can realize over and over oh my goodness I'm saying to myself X and for the first time they say out loud and realize the thing they've said to themselves 10,000 times right or it can be a feeling state right wow what's Salient to me is a feeling State say of vulnerability and then everything seems threatening right so salience it's a it's a form of self-awareness that we can could say is using the conscious mind now to tend to that Garden of self right to look at that Garden of self and say what's really growing from it right is is it all things I like right it's going to be never all things we like is it's a process but am I happy with it am I not happy with it are there you know weeds that are coming up all over the place those that could be the intrusive thoughts right so we're using metaphors but it's actually very very concrete right the salian part is what is going on inside of me and that's a very interesting inquiry and informative right it's interesting because it's informative do you think that's an inquiry that's best done in meditative like States you know set or setting aside some deliberate time to um to think about like what am I thinking about what am I paying attention to how am I allocating my thoughts yeah or my thoughts being allocated I guess we have to respect the uh unconscious compon oent here like we're not we don't just walk around say I'm place my attentional Spotlight there and then I thinking here you know we always want to be aware of what we that there are things we don't know that's respectful that's appropriate humility because it's true so I'm assuming this ratchet directly into the cupboard of behavior right um you know what we're actually doing um is that covered best explored by listing off perhaps on paper in our mind what we're doing each day is that is that one way to explore like how am I spending my time um again not as a an efficiency exercise but as a way to start to explore the self and and um and the mind uh for sake of building up to more agency and gratitude right right you know the routes to to most effective self-inquiry right to bringing the conscious mind to Bear really differ widely by person there's some people who are so well served by doing that when they're meditating right there are other people who like they can really get at that when they're playing a sport you know it's going on inside of them along with the other things you know that they're that they're doing some people find it in the shower they find it when they wake up in the morning or they find it when they're with an animal they love or they might find it when they're reading a certain kind of material and then they read it and then it kind of the reading Trails off and they're thinking they a revery sort of inside so how we can engender the best use of our conscious Minds is going to differ by person but again we can think about that like what really works for me let me do more of that someone you it's interesting we see people sometimes I see people a lot of the time who are they're trying to meditate to understand themselves and it's like not working right and it's like I must know how to meditate in order to understand myself well that's not necessarily true it might be I must go on more hikes in order to better understand myself because that's how it works for me so that process of reflection can be very very helpful to us because we're using our conscious mind to try and either look inward what is Salient to me including understanding that I don't understand everything but I can understand a lot of it and outward what behaviors am I engaging in what are my behavior patterns right and to be reflective about that to think about that can be immensely helpful to us like how am I spending those hours of the day what am I doing with my time am I wasting my time do I always always get mad and say something mean to somebody why because I had a negative thought about something am I doing that no have I kind of changed since something unpleasant happened and you know now I'm not so nice to someone in the household right or am I taking a lot better care of myself you know like since I started doing X whatever X may be learning more about myself right uh doing more the things I like got left that old job it was so hard for me to leave you know know I do actually get myself to the gym right so it's a reflection upon self because a lot of what we do we do automatically right and that's very important right if you know the example that often is given is okay think about how you last brushed your teeth right and the answer probably like a blank right because you brush your teeth in an automatic way right most of us don't remember that because we just skip right over it so it makes sense it lets us think while we're doing things it lets a lot happen automatically in the physical world right just as it happens inside of us automatically but we can there have sort of too much of a good thing where too much is happening automatically and we want to stop and think and it's remarkable how sometimes when people stop and think they might say real example is I don't want to be spending five nights a week at the bar and I'm spending five nights a week at the bar why because I go home a certain way from work and there's a bar along that way and then I think oh I'll just stop in and maybe see a friend and then I know that once I get in there I'm going to have a drink and I know once I have a drink I'm going to get three and I I'm going to have three and I see this pattern of behaviors and how like I don't decide I'm going to go to that bar instead of going home to see my wife or my husband or my kids or whatever it may be and I don't want to behave that way right because there that's a it's a great example of how you can stop that from happening happening but once it starts happening The Dominoes start falling it's very very hard now people don't generally realize oh my goodness I'm in the bar and I've had one drink and now I'm going to have two more that's not the time but the understanding the reflection upon Behavior patterns can lead a person to stop those behaviors to understand and recognize them get their arms around them Shine the Light of Day on them and then have greater agency right greater gratitude I'm I'm grateful I can go home to my family and that's what I choose to do right and I can do that I do not have to end up at that bar and I'm not going to end up at that bar I'm going to drive a different way home and if I can't get myself to do that I'm going to have a friend in the car with me and if I can't do that I'll be in the back seat right but I'm not doing that thing I choose not to do and you know that's a it's a more dramatic example not an uncommon one but we can apply that the whole way up the list from nuances of our behaviors down to more dramatic behaviors I've heard you describe the unconscious mind and some of its other interconnected workings with uh the analogy of a you know a phantom in the driver's seat and we're in the back seat like sort of you know of course all within one person right this idea that we're just being taken places that we don't want to go or that we know we shouldn't go or that we can't really figure out why we're going there and we have some idea but um we're just not certain about what's going on you know it's it's not necessarily um related to really um destructive action either I mean it can be but what you're describing sounds to me a lot like uh climbing out of the back seat and um maybe sitting in the passenger seat and looking into the uh driver seat oh like there's something else going on here of course all of this is one mind um and in doing that taking some control of the vehicle right it's about understanding what is that Phantom where did it come from that's how we get rid of it it's like how do we get back in the driver's seat we don't grab the Phantom and throw it out the door or throw it in the back seat right it's it's ephemeral we can't grab it right so how does it go away it goes away through understanding so very common example that the Phantom in the driver's seat is trauma that we have pushed in an unconscious place and now that whole under the surface structure of the iceberg is is frag M mented and it's sort of roiling and there's a big problem there and if we go at that problem and whatever it's spinning off right that's the abscess but it's a bad one and it's spinning off a lot of problems and that's why the Phantom is in the driver's seat because healthy things are not built on top of that fracturing and roiling part of the iceberg right we see that a lot right the Phantom could also be something different it could be one defense mechanism that's unhealthy that we are really over relying on and then we can understand it through that lens so they're just a few examples but if if you know if we sort of wake up in the backseat of the car so to speak and the Phantom is driving recklessly and how we get the Phantom out of the front seat is by understanding it then you know I always imagine poof it goes away because now it's not driving my life anymore right I'm driving my life it's gone the message that I'm hearing over and over again in my head is that uh no matter how well or how poorly any of our Lives happen to be going that by looking in these cupboards under structure of self and function of self we can have so much more positive control yes yes that's why ultimately what we're talking about is optimistic Ian we can't help ourselves if we don't honor truth right and the truth is that there are complex aspects of this so okay we we want to go look at that and we want to look at how things can go wrong and that's all very very important but that's all wrapped in the best truth which is that we can change it we can make it better that's why the self The Garden of self is on top of the structure of self right and the top of the function of self are are strivings that's what comes next after behaviors I like what are my behaviors doing what am I doing what am I striving towards what am I doing literally am I going to a job I hate am I doing things I don't want to do am I accepting treatment that I don't want to accept am I treating people in ways I don't want to accept how can I strive for better and striving and hopefulness are so intertwined so the Pinnacle of the function pillar is striving the Pinnacle of the structure pillar is self and we can see how the self the strivings right what we're doing now is combining the pillars it's where it comes together and you know your imagery of like that's where the geyser comes from and we want that geyser to be healthy right it's a stream of clear clean water that's coming out of it that's where our empowerment is but empowerment is a condition of being right I am empowered empowerment rests within me that's where humility comes into the picture humility also something within me right I have humility they're not verbs but empowerment and humility then gain their expression at the top of that geyser when agency and gratitude those verbs arise from empowerment and humility what you've drawn for us is an incredibly compelling picture because the the picture the map uh is really a road map uh it's it's a path to ideals and um and you've been talking about these ideals of agency and gratitude um across this series and um they just Encompass so much and as you mentioned before they are interconnected um and they are verb States and a critical component of the geysering up from the pillars toward agency and gratitude are these two components of empowerment and humility tell us a little bit more about empowerment and humility and how we should view empowerment and humility in the context of self-care well empowerment is a state that we can create for ourselves if we're taking care of the pillars right so we're looking in the cupboards we're doing the things that make our map clearer and clearer right this idea that oh that seemed like a good path but it gets clearer and there's a swamp there right or that didn't seem like a good path because it's circuitous oh no but there are good things along that path so the map gets clearer as we tend to the cupboards in the pillars and that empowers us right we're in a state there's a state inside of us that is a state of potentials that are now skewed in a good way right that's what empowerment is is like it's not something that happens it's a state that we then bring to bear on what happens right the same is true of humility you know humility does not mean not acknowledging things that are good about you right and we often can can very much mischaracterize humility like is that person being weak is it false hum humility or people often who are conscientious don't want to acknowledge good things about them oh no no I'm not that smart like that's not humility right humility is consistent with truth right so if you keep saying you're not that smart but the world around you tells you that you're that smart right then acknowledge that you're that smart right that's coming through the lens of Truth and right we can go down to the pillars and the cupboards and say okay how does a person get to acknowledging that truth right so it's only by by by squaring away the things that humility isn't right it is not denigrating ourselves and and we see that in a lot of people I'm humble so and then that person often tells you why they're accepting something that's not good to accept right so humility is about acknowledging truthfully the characteristics that you have within yourself good and bad and here is where we can identify things that we're not so happy with right we have to have humility within us in order to make ourselves better right just like I have to say look I'd like to be more fit if I'm going to then get myself in a more fit state right so saying look I can be you know I can be a little bit s snippy with people if I'm irritated or I can be a little bit condescending or you know I can um I can be a little selfish at times right it's hard to admit these things to ourselves but if we have the humility to to acknowledge those things right then we also get to have that broader humility about just being a person like wow look how complicated this is to navigate life I mean these pillars are not simple and when we go down to the the real base elements of them it can get very complicated so then we have a compassion right for self and for others you know like sometimes I'll say to a person I should be doing this I should be doing that they they think they should be doing something perfectly and I will say to them it's it's amazing that that we're moving forward right I mean let's start with with wow it's not easy be human it's not easy to navigate this world and that kind of humility can then allow us to feel good about what we build on top of it right it's not easy to navigate this world and humans are pretty vulnerable by and large but I'm applying myself right and and I'm proud that I'm applying myself and that I'm perseverant but also I'd like to be a little more compassionate like it's that sort of thing that combines with empowerment so empowerment and humility are these potential states that then Express themselves or become enacted however we wish to put that but they change into the active verbs of agency and gratitude and agency and gratitude are ways of being right they're verbs they're active so that's the point of it from the sense of how we are living right how we are being that's why agency and gratitude is in some sense its own end point right but because there's a circular aspect of this right our active being is not the end point if we're being in a healthy way then we get to experience things right peace contentment Delight we experience them because we are healthy so we get to be through the lens of agency and gratitude we get to experience peace contentment and delight and that makes a healthier us the drives and their expression are in better balance the generative Drive is fostered and strengthened and the drives underneath of it the aggression assertion proactive right we're really using that in a good way and we're mining all of it within us like I want to bring that to bear and I can bring more of it to Bear right that's very very good and the pleasure Drive is active in us I'm enjoying the things I do I feel good about the things I do I'm making good choices and that state of health what it promotes the pillars the cupboards to stay clean and clear and healthy right but life is life and the slings and arrows of Outrageous Fortune the slings and arrows of life will continue to come at us and cause us to go back and look at the pillars and the cupboards and even if they don't come at us those things are never perfect right but that's not bad because by tending to them where do we bring ourselves we bring ourselves back to the ACT active verbs of agency and gratitude the active verbs of living and here we are in this cycle that if we pay attention to it we use it to understand ourselves we use it to improve ourselves can bring us to Better Lives how do you think about a person and I confess I've been this person um perhaps still am to some extent who can really have a sense of agency and gratitude in certain domains maybe even many domains of life um and yet feels as if there are certain areas of life that are just so much more challenging than others right this like stark contrast like this stuff works can do that but like this stuff is just really really hard um and maybe that continues long enough that it almost starts to feel like or the person wonders whether or not you know maybe that part of life is inac accessible to me it's just never going to be successful for me um you know how do you think about these um carve outs of of you know functionality and lack of functionality that's probably not the right language but um I think this is important because uh it relates directly I believe to kind of narratives that we tell ourselves I mean they are narratives right I think it's important to think about these because um you know they are intermeshed with and perhaps even the con consquence of narratives that we have like stories about ourselves that we have internally um and again you know I I'll be the first to admit that uh I've felt this way for much of my life um certain things I can do other things far far harder and sometimes it felt outside the reach of possibility I have a very concise answer to this one in fact it's nine words don't make yourself special in ways that hurt you and we tend to do that as humans oh I get to have a b and c but I don't get to have D I get to have professional success and I'm in pretty good shape and I have a lot of friends but I don't get to have a relationship I mean over and over and over because the relationship part is so emotionally Laden it's the part that gets carved out right falsely carved out the the most right but it can happen in any Arena of life where we make ourselves special in a way that really is black magic or is being cursed right you have the Machinery right the ability the function to to go about pursuing the things you want and get them right that sounds like a pretty good Paradigm accept about something really important to you right that can't be right it's we're applying the same Machinery of self because we're talking about know things people want in a broad scale right like I would like professional success I would like personal success I would like to do do well in my family unit and be a good family member I would like romance right so we're talking about areas of self right and we will make ourselves Special by carving out one and then applying black magic or some cursed state that then takes that away from us and that creates tremendous consternation that will throw all of those Cupboards in those pyramids off balance because like we don't like that like that seems mysterious and ominous you know what is there that you don't know that's about being cursed so you can't have something and then that makes anger and frustration in us and more likely that we'll act out or we'll be frustrated and we start enjoying things less right sometimes a person can wall something off like that and they can go forward with the rest of life I mean it affects them but it's not obvious it's not on their mind all the time which is why the process of self-inquiry can reveal important things like oh like I pretend that I don't even care about professional success and it's the only why do I do that is the only thing I'm not doing very well and because I think it's it's impossible for me it's not something I get why because I got other things so I don't get that okay now we're we're really curious about that and sometimes it causes very very big problems where a person who who a person can build an external sense of self that soothes some of their vulnerability so they can present in a certain way but underneath of that they're hiding the sadness or the pain of what is missing but that is then sort of eating away at them and their feelings of self on the inside don't match what people see on the outside we see a lot of this and the process of self-inquiry of self-exploration of curiosity about self can lead us to realize what we've carved out if we don't already realize it or it can help us to see that the carve out makes no sense right it's as if you said well you know there nine roads around my home and you know they're all just regular old roads I can drive on eight of them but not the ninth I so well it doesn't make any sense if they're they're similar it it requires the same set of skills right have to know how to drive the car and have the visual Acuity why wouldn't you be able to to drive down the ninth but even though that's a very mundane example but it's that that we apply to very important and emotionally charged aspects of our life you know I I get to have physical fitness and friends and Career Success but I don't get to have love I mean we hear people say this and that's a very powerful way of taking us away from what we want to achieve in life it takes us away from the active agency and gratitude and all the good that comes of that what you just said makes a lot of sense especially the point that uh you know if we have nine roads around us and we can drive down eight of them why not the 9th um because it places us back into the verb tense and the action tense of like the car like we a vehicle the eye that we can take through the world right sure conditions matter maybe Road Number Nine has Boulders on it um but you know it can't be that roads one through eight were all just smooth super highways either right those had challenges and uh we I'm not going to use myself as example I for whoever is doing this sort of exercise um had a mind that was able to work around those Boulders right of challenging people of uh you know limited finances of um these are all things I've experienced you know and of course people come into the world with different levels of Challenge and privilege and accessibility Etc we don't want to deny all of that but but those other eight roads are rarely if ever perfectly smooth roads that's why it's it's completely about the self right and and it's the realization that if I brought myself to bear and I got down the first eight I can bring myself to bear and get down the ninth and as you're pointing out it's not like the first eight were easy right maybe one of them was really pretty smooth right but there's going to be a couple of them in there that are have have raised really you know strong difficulties things to surmount and to overcome and it's from that place of understanding that we find within ourselves the Courage the strength to go down the ninth Road even if we see greater barriers even if we're okay I'm aware now but I'm also aware that I avoided that ninth Road for a reason right the boulders and the potholes right they're more severe on that road in fact I'm kind of worried that it's that it's impassible but I mean it can't be impossible right if there's Boulders there I'll you know I'll go rent some Excavating equipment or I'll fill in the potholes right and and that's how we get ourselves to go forward and tend to acknowledge and validate like I'm afraid of doing that if I weren't afraid of doing it I would have done it already right but I now realize like what the truth is and what I brought to bear in the first eight and I'm going to bring myself to Bear for the ninth that's also when we recruit often resources around us where we might say Let Me Tell a couple good friends about this or a clergy member or a therapist or you know a trusted other and let me explore this more in myself and and that's often how in in making ourselves better we we engage more with the people around us and then the support from someone else that may help a person do that right is support given back to the other person and this is also how we build the Beyond self is that the the path to travel down the ninth road so to speak we don't have to travel alone you know much of the time but that often almost always wasn't in the person's mind right they they perceive I'm it's a you know three person job you know to go down it's like great you have two friends yes certainly where uh I've been able to travel down certain roads um the key features have been uh a a desire to go down that road um a recognition of the landscape but not trying to take on the whole thing all at once um and then finding really good people and uh and frankly really trying to avoid people that seemed uh you know poisonous to the journey right that we're going to you know throw toxic things into the engine of my vehicle and and that's putting a lot on them but um uh you know it just felt as if going down those other roads was too valuable an expedition to spend time on and with people that it wasn't helpful to spend time with um and at the same time there have always been good people that have presented themselves with um examples I think you know this is where it comes to mind you know it's not always the case that you know you got a friend who saying you can do this and here's why or a therapist that says you can do this and here's why but that um there are examples in the world of like well this person did this um I think when we have challenges in a certain domain you know that ninth road so to speak um I know for myself that I know I'm in a place of of futility when I start to um reflexively Orient towards others that have had a problem getting down that road you know like oh like I recognized this other person who's good at roads 1 through eight but not nine um and it occurred to me during the course of this series really that um you know why not pick different examples so if you're going on a journey and it's a really important journey and it's a difficult Journey but it can be awesome bring good people right have them on your journey beyond their journey and then you think well why would a person not bring good people people if I were going on a journey and it's going to be arduous but wow we could see amazing things along the way I can I can bring a couple people with me I I don't want to choose a couple people who are lazy you know some who you you know don't look at the world around them and you know some that won't uh be helpful to somebody else in need it's like why would one choose that right it comes back to the self right if a person now we're talking about any Journey right because it's the Journey of life right if a person is choosing people you wouldn't choose to be on the journey with you it's because you don't think that you're worth better right and if you think that you're worth better you won't choose the people you'll say I want other people like me I'm going to be diligent P perceptive collegial Cooperative so I'm going to surround myself with people like that and if we we look Beyond ourselves at groups of people and at culture the healthier we are the more we Ally with healthy people and the more healthy we are because we're making ourselves eles healthy we get healthier groups of people the journey is better for all of us and this is how we can make the whole culture better right potentially this is how we can make life on the planet better but it has to start somewhere so it has to start with the eye I love love love the message that you know if you're heading off on a journey that's really meaningful to you know go with and make sure that you interact with good people uh this is actually a place where um you know a reference to social media and online communities is actually um worthwhile and can be very beneficial you know I think it's easy for us to kind of roll our eyes at like self-help and things like that on the other hand there are communities online um that I consider myself a part of but um for which I and many other people have derived a a lot of strength a a lot of um reassurance and confidence right you know because a lot of people are isolated um they might have access to one or two people in their community that they really value but those people are perhaps also busy with other people or um I can remember being a student alone in my studio apartment as a as an undergraduate I'm feeling very much against the grain of my local environment you know too much partying for me at the time meaning I wasn't parting and there was a lot of parting around me and had I been a better student in high school I probably would have been able to health healthily engage in that but I just wasn't able so feeling Prett isolated but knowing I was on a path so in that case it was one Professor one graduate student and a hell of a lot of books and music that to me just carried me through you know nowadays I'm fortunate to have many more uh direct resources in in my life of of amazing people but I I just want to mention that because I think in this discussion around self-care and um the various practices I think there are sure to be people who are you know that that kid that woman that man that's you know like alone in a room thinking like okay but how right I I see the the grosser once a week and I and I see my neighbor and they don't even say hello you know and and um you know how to start to access some of these better connections right navigating the online world is navigating the world right it comes down to understanding and choice so if we're understanding as best we can we're making Choice as best we can then we'll find great things online there are great things to find online same is true of life if we're searching for something that for example allies us around hatred around acting out around things that make us unhappy even around commiseration instead of thinking about how we can make things better right then we bring ourselves in a different direction that's life if we understand and we choose as best we can we will lead oursel to better places so such an important message and is a perfect segue into a question that I and I'm certain many many other people have about anger and you know not just anger from interpersonal conflict like somebody said something and it really upset me but stuff that we see stuff that we observe in the world could be um uh acts against other people words against other people or you know that we take reference to and I think many people feel yanked around by um you know even dragged uh by something they see and and they can't get it out of their head now there could be all sorts of reasons related to each and all of us why we can't get it out of our head work that we need to do Etc but according to the map of mental health that you've laid out for us things that get in the way of that generative Drive are are really quite poisonous to our well-being and the well-being of the world because that generative Drive is about learning creation and to be pro-social yes and uh in so many ways tell us about anger and how from a frame of reference of trying to engage in self-care we should think about our anger and work with our anger in ways that can perhaps even help us and not harm us in in order to really understand this and I think this is so important we have to Define three words right and the word to start with is affect so affect is aroused in us right meaning we don't have control over it so anger is an affect it is aroused in us the idea being that if a person is walking down the street and someone jumps in front of them and shoves them anger is aroused in them they don't choose to be angry in fact the body reacts and has all sorts of fight ORF flight responses before the person even realizes that they're angry so we can't control what is aroused in Us in the immediate term we can in the longer term if I have a short fuse and I get angry really easily you know I can't really control that in the next 10 minutes right meaning the aect that's aroused in me I can do different things with it but I can't change what's created in me but if I'm living a better life taking better care of myself the generative Drive is better expressed I have more pleasure in my life then what happens is the mechanisms that arouse so much anger start to arouse less anger so by taking care of ourselves we arouse less anger but anger is aroused in us okay the next word is feeling right and they're different definitions for these words but the way we're defining them affect is aroused feeling is when we take that affect and we relate it to the self it's the next thing that happens on the way up because the arousal of affect is very deep in the brain as it comes up the next thing it does is relate that affect to self so so this is where that the classic example of a person who spills something they are angry that thing is spilled it raises anger in them then they become aware and they match the anger to self and say what a dummy right what a jerk I'll never do anything right they say it inside right because the anger gets enacted against the self now what what how would we like that to go where the person's taking better care of themselves so when they spill something less anger is aroused and by the time it gets to Consciousness there's less anger so it's easier to manage and there's a stronger sense of self all the other aspects of the pillars and the cups are are in a good place then the person is better able to manage what anger makes it right to feeling and then to say you know okay everybody spills something now and then whatever then to clean it up and the person doesn't have to enact the anger towards themselves right so affect feeling and then emotion so emotion is when we relate the affect and the feeling to others in the world around us so for example a person might spill something and then it arouses anger and now they get to the feeling part but they have a set of unhealthy defenses and they don't think they're responsible for things they're responsible for so they just keep that that load of anger right that that affect uh upwards until they get to emotion and then they decide that wasn't my fault it was yours and that's why maybe they kick the dog or they slap somebody or they say something mean like this happens so if it happens a lot like this is part and parcel of what's going on in us a lot about negative emotions I mean there can be dramatic examples but there's smaller examples that are winding their way through our lives and the better we take care of ourselves the less aroused negative a we have and the better we cope with it when it gets to the level of the eye and when it gets to the level of the you right and if we think about pro-social collaborative behaviors versus the inaction of anger on a large scale right if by the time it gets to you there's still a lot of anger there it is very easy to then paint with a broad brush right oh the problems are that demographic right the problems are those people who aren't like me right that's where anger is at its most dangerous so the idea of having the negative AFF under control having the understanding and the control mechanisms right keeps us from getting to that broader level the level of you and then working in ways that are not pro-social but are antisocial and and this I think also relates to what we can find online right we can find online everything we can find in the world so then we have a choice are we going to work on understanding what choices are we going to make about how we're engaging in the world and if we're choosing the good things we're taking better care of ourselves and we're better sort of citizens of our relationships of our family units and ultimately of our societies I've observed anger directed my way certainly I'm far far from perfect I have thousands of flaws and I've directed anger towards others in ways that I I wish I hadn't um a common observance I've had about myself and others is that when angry a lot of valuable time is wasted instead of placing my efforts Within the generative Drive creating things that I really value um the anger becomes an immense distraction you know and I've seen this a lot um not just on University campuses um but one place I have seen it is uh when I was a graduate student or postdoc there would be some interaction for either between them um in the laboratory I was in although rarely um but more often it was about some interaction with uh between a student or postto and someone in the outside world and so they'd come in and they' be really upset about it and there's a tendency to you know try and support one another which I think is healthy but then it was like that this would just continue and continue and the person would be like sitting in their chair was like really upsetting and sometimes these were really upsetting occurrences that warranted taking some time and just really stopping but often I felt like things just kept spiraling up and spiraling up and it's like halfway through the day and again I'm not immune from this but but I observed it more than I felt it certainly um it's like wow that's a lot of time wasted like like just days and perhaps even weeks and months and then there's the Sleep loss that goes with anger um I think that's one of the things about social media and online communities that's new and unique is that it used to be when kids went home from school or we go home from work you would something might have happened there but you didn't have access to more incoming um you know people weren't calling you on the phone telling you you know things that you don't like or talking about others in ways that you don't like whereas all you have to do now is pick up social media and if you're not really um deliberate in how you interact with social media and on the internet and which news articles you read and which ones you you scroll past I mean that could be accessible at 2 in the morning when you're up about the thing that was angering you during the day that is new right and and and requires elevated levels of of diligence right high levels of anger bring volatility and confusion right and that doesn't serve anyone or anything well lower levels of anger can be healthy right I'm angry at that and I and and I want to try and make it right or I'm angry at that and I'm going to have my say in or I'm going to have my vote in it or whatever it may be lower levels of anger okay they can inform us they can guide our behaviors but when we get to high levels of anger it's volatility and confusion the person ceases to then be effective and here's an example when you were telling me about how you feel when you're doing the solo podcast right and and how your agency and your gratitude are like really in action and you're feeling you you're feeling the the peace and and you're delighted and you the generative Drive is at the four in you right and then I had said what if we add a little bit of anger even right to kind of make the and then your response is like oh would all come offline right because there you're doing something that calls for like you to really be at your best firing on all cylinders so even a little bit of anger is too much but it it's a good example because it shows like able to do this thing that that is so good for you you're living in the place if you could have all of existence be like you feel then right you would love it you could bring it to all the rest of your life like that's the Nirvana we're we're going for and you're actively living it but we could throw it off and ruin it with even a little bit of anger right so it's it's an example that kind models for us how higher levels of anger cause problems in situations that are not so rarified as that high levels of anger maybe for somebody blurting out somebody attacking somebody somebody saying something they shouldn't somebody making a bad decision you know anger isn't good for us at high levels and we can decrease it by making ourselves healthier that then we make less of it and we control it better and we keep ourselves at the low to moderate levels of anger hopefully low again no anger is not good high anger is not good let's try and live in the low range occasionally something is very distressing We rise up to moderate that's where we have anger in a healthy place when we set out on this uh journey to uh explore what is mental health um I had no expectation um that you would deliver to us this incredible map of how to explore our inner territory and that you would spell out such crisp and clear ideals um of states and ways of being and things to access um nor did I uh know anything about the generative drive and the other drives that reside within us you know in thinking about self-care um and in thinking about the sorts of things that people are challenged with often you know I I made out a little list uh not just anger but things like scared embarrassed grieving dejected tired confused stuck you know and then I wrote you know infinite number of these right I mean there have to be at an infinite number of challenges that people face um an infinite number of circumstances and perhaps even an Infinite combination of those things that people face in circumstances that can make it all seem like a giant oppressive Cloud within us and around us and yet what you've provided is really a um uh a path of clarity because it's a path that certainly includes a lot of complexity down in those pillars the bottom you know the structure of self function of self but you've directed us toward looking into that complexity looking into those cupboards as a way to arrive at answers that bring us toward more Simplicity you know empowerment humility agency gratitude peace contentment delight and this incredibly uh attractive thing uh the generative drive that that is really accessible to any and all of us it's there in every one of us in providing this path of clarity um and again I want to remind people that whether or not you feel you're doing well in life um maybe even in all domains of life or whether or not you're experiencing challenge in any or perhaps even all domains of life going into those covers is clearly of immense value and you've you've so uh graciously spelled out how we can do that um regardless of resources really uh it sounds like all it requires is a a desire to be better and feel better and do better and and a a willingness to to explore curiosity right if I had to summarize the whole thing in two words I would say be curious right because curious opens the door to all of it curiosity about self curiosity about life leads to all the good things well what you've given us is of immense value and it's something that I know that I and um many many other people are going to um take on as uh as a positive set of goals not just for immense challenges but really for always right for living forward and understanding the past I mean I um never before have I um been presented with something that felt like it had as much power and potency to do good as this so that's great I'm happy to hear that well it's absolutely true and um I really want to thank you uh behalf of myself and and everybody else for you know sharing with us your your time your intellect your willingness to build this structure specifically for this series um and it uh for lack of a better word it's it's so generative it's thank you and um and I'm sure that people have tons of questions um and tons of experiences of their own to share in terms of using this and and they can share that with us that's one of the wonderful things about podcasts is they can put those to the comments on YouTube or or else really the comments on YouTube would be the place to share uh those questions and comments and feedback and um and perhaps going forward we can explore uh the self the psyche relationships and uh ways to improve all of that and uh Our Lives um going forward yes yes this has been great it's been invigorating and fun and thank you so much thank you for joining me for today's discussion all about true self-care with Dr Paul kti this marks the ending of the fourth episode in our four episode series all about mental health with Dr kti you can access each of the episodes by going to hubman lab.com where it's linked out to all formats and regardless of whether or not you have now completed or you are still in the process of digesting the material from this series I hope you found it to be as enriching and as useful in your life as I have and on behalf of myself and Dr Cony I want to thank you again for your time and attention if you're learning from Andor enjoying this podcast please Subs subcribe to our YouTube channel that's a terrific zeroc cost way to support us in addition please subscribe to the podcast on both Spotify and apple and on both Spotify and apple you can leave us up to a five-star review please also check out the sponsors mentioned at the beginning and throughout today's episode that's the best way to support this podcast if you have questions for me or comments about the podcast or guests that you'd like me to consider hosting on the hubman Lab podcast please put those in the comment section on YouTube I do read all the comments and if you're not already following me on social media I am 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