Dolph Lundgren’s Cancer Was Misdiagnosed. A Second Opinion Saved His Life.

He said, "Yeah, you probably have about 3 years left, but I can't believe that I was that close to dying." >> D Long Lunging, one of Hollywood's best known action heroes. >> Up there with the most [music] iconic action stars of the 1980s. >> There's no one like him. Period. End of story. >> I wanted to get away from my dad and he kind of [music] kicked me and I flew into some bookshelf and hit my head and I was bleeding. I could hijack this feeling to play an action character. What if I make it [music] like the ultimate lab creation? I must break you. >> I must break you. >> It turned out to be kidney cancer. This guy says it's over, but what about let me try this person. I found out later that those are the wrong drugs. I was misdiagnosed. Within [music] 4 weeks, everything was shrinking. Your job as a man is to be in the red, to give more than you were given, to love more than you you were loved. And maybe it [music] came back to me, you know, from the universe. That's why I was given the second chance. >> You know, I thought I knew who you were. >> Uh, and then getting into your book and learning as much as I could about your life and the high highs and the low lows and and this kind of Odysius like journey that you've been on. It's really remarkable and it's so rich in its texture uh in terms of kind of what you've >> weathered and endured to really, you know, again in the spirit of Odysius to like return home to yourself, you know. Uh it's a very it's a very human story and it's really a story of trauma and healing fundamentally, you know, this reconciliation between, you know, Hans, this young child uh growing up in a small >> town, you know, in Sweden uh and suffering, you know, uh suffering the abuse that you suffered then armoring yourself in, you know, the Drago costume and being this indestructible, uh, you know, action hero who was just impenetrable and this immovable object, right? Stoic to the core, but not impenetrable to, you know, the kind of trauma that was unhealed and um that powered you to great heights but ultimately you know our strengths become our Achilles heel and like reckoning with that to you know really become this integrated human being like it it is a hero's journey the humble beginnings to you know stardom to the low moments you know it it it lends itself to a perfect three-act structure >> yeah slaying of the father >> meeting the sorceress you know traveling uh Far far away lands. >> Yeah. >> Near-death experience. >> There all these steps on that road that I >> The sirens. >> The sirens. Oh, yeah. Studio 54. >> The Sirens. Um, yeah. It's interesting. It's uh it was well thought out by Campbell when he when he kind of mapped that out because >> it's true for everybody, but I think for some is a little more uh palpable than for others. I guess >> your greatest role is playing yourself in the movie of your life. Like this is the movie that needs to be in development. Like reading your book, there were so many, you know, stories that you tell where I could just see it. I mean, when you get this Fullulbright scholarship to get your PhD in chemical engineering at MIT >> and you're pulling up, you know, to MIT on a motorcycle in a suit made out of leather and rubber designed by Versace and you have Grace Jones on the back and you climb off that motorcycle to go into this storied institution of, you know, geeks and brainiacs. I mean I just like that is the most cinematic thing like I can just see it like [laughter] you know the uh the contrast of you know the collision of these these two worlds. >> Collisions. Yeah. That was an internal collision for me too because I I wanted to satisfy my dad and that was his favorite school MIT and he was an engineer as well and I wanted to also kind of deliver on all those years of studying I'd put in but then I knew on a deep level that I it wasn't really for me. I had a different destiny, something waiting for me. I didn't know what it was, >> but I knew that I had to make a decision because if I had started and kind of focused on the PhD, that would have been that would have been it then. I mean, >> somebody else would have played Ivan Drago. So >> yeah, a lot of people, well, not a lot, but a certain amount of people could attend MIT and get their PhD and, you know, go work on the space shuttle, which I know you did when you were at Clemson for a period of time. Uh, but there's only one guy who's got Grace Jones on the back of his motorcycle. Uh, at a very specific time in history where culture was popping off in New York City in the way that it was, like I have a very romantic relationship. uh and and like yearning like I I feel like I was born a little bit too late. Like I wish that I was you know at Studio 54 during that time and you know navigating Warhol's in inner circle at the factory and all of these experiences that that you've had. I probably would have died if that happened. If that, you know, maybe I was, maybe God spared me that. But, uh, but I I really like love hearing those stories of that very special time where culture was being formed in real time by a certain cast of characters that were kind of >> haunting uh, you know, lower Manhattan for a good decade. >> Yeah, of course. I I didn't plan to be part of it. Uh, but you're right. I I've I thought about it afterwards as well how it was New York Manhattan was not hadn't turned corporate yet. It was it was you know there were some talented people there but it was um it was simpler in one way like I was in the west village meat packing district right below the 14th street on the on the west side >> and they had all those kind of disintegrating peers out where you know there was all kinds of dating and different activities going on >> prostitution at night and then you had the westside highway was still up they tore that maybe a few years later. Uh, but I remember getting up at like 5 in the morning. I [clears throat] lived on Bank Street, Bank and West, and I would get up to go for a run and I would run down Washington or Washington Street, I think it was. I went all the way down to >> to the World Trade Center and I would turn around right by the World Trade Center and run back. And I know that I I had to be really careful because you could get like jumped by somebody, you know, in the street there in Tribeca. It was very rough. So I kind of had kept a good pace up. I remember through Tribeca and of course now Tribeca is, you know, super expensive and gentrified and and the World Trade Center is gone. So yeah, it is is a different city for sure. >> And you were navigating all that insanity and chaos. uh sober essentially like everyone's out of their minds on cocaine, etc. And you're at Studio 54 like like just a cold stone sober Fox. >> I was, you know, uh that was the thing that I was wondering why all these people could stay up so late, you know, like, wow, they have such stamina here, you know, at like 6:00 in the morning. And they were looking at me like, how is he up? Like we're sitting across from a limo. And then, you know, like you said, studio was obviously uh I think I ended up in the back room with Rebel and a few of his friends, you know, doing drugs, but I I I didn't partake in any of that until much later actually than after I got famous. But I I was always, you know, I went for that run at 5:00, even if I got home at 3. So, I was pretty regimented all the way through. >> Yeah. >> The inner athlete uh never never sleeps. >> Never never slept. >> Um >> how long between Okay, I'm in New York and the Rocky 4 situation coming along. >> I think it came along uh in in 84. So, it's a year. I come to New York in 80 right the end of 82 83 and then about a year later uh after having quit MIT and having started acting uh I was up for a boxing movie you know one of many calls I got you know and uh I was just standing in a line with a bunch of guys and I come to a table and there's a woman sitting there with a with a pad and she's like I guess my name was there and she she said um you Hans Lren, how tall are you? And I was like um 6'5 and she's like too tall next. And I was like, oh [ __ ] You know, I look behind her and there's a handwritten sign Rocky Ro Roman numeral 4. And I was like, oh [ __ ] a Rocky movie. It's like I love the Rocky movies. I'd actually listened to Rocky 3 to Eye of the Tiger when I was getting ready to fight in Australia only a year and a half a year earlier. So I I then through my acting coach managed to he he set up a dinner with this guy John Herzfeld who was a friend of Stallones and SL and John immediately said you know you're the guy Sly has been looking for you know and I said well I I was there but they turned me down. He's like >> what do you have any photos of yourself? And I I I said well I got something but it's down in the village. And he says well I I can get it. So I got on my bike and I motorcycle went down and got this one 8x10 and that's the one slide eventually got hold of 6 months later when I thought it was all you know nothing was going to come out of it. I was I was in uh England doing the movie the Bond picture and then I got the call back and I went to see Stallone in and um at it was at uh Paramounts cuz I remember coming on the in the taxi and uh from the airport and you know you see the Hollywood sign behind the studio and I was like whoa okay and I was going to see Stallone and obviously he came out he was all tanned long hair and I was starruck like oh [ __ ] you and he's like, "Uh, I got 5,000 guys up for this role." Like, "Okay." And you know, he had all these binders around his office cuz it was before, you know, >> digital. And uh and he took a look at me and I I know later he told me that he had this idea of this kind of Russian bear, like this hairy monster. And then so it didn't work. But he said later when he he looked at me and I he started thinking, wait a second, what if I make it like the ultimate lab creation, ultimate human being versus >> who is like a perfect specimen versus Rocky who is like the imperfect, >> you know. >> Yeah. >> Specimen American, you know, >> the Russian science experiment. >> Yeah. So he came up with >> chemically engineered. >> Chemical engineered. He came up with that when he said later when I was in his office and then I had to audition I had to memorize a a monologue and uh he said you got to put on some weight because I was a bit skinny uh because I was doing a lot of running you know as like I told you 5 in the morning I was running and you know you can't really get really jacked so I had to do that but yeah that's how it started and u six month and so I trained for six months. All right, but hold on. Let me let me interrupt because there's so much here. >> I mean, the there's a couple lessons uh that come from that come out of that story. Um the first of which is there's always a third door like the casting director already next to you, right? And you know, there's there's this process of figuring out an end run, you know, between Herzfeld and your acting coach and figuring out how to get to Stallone and like this conviction like no actually this guy's right. You know, just because this casting director said you're too tall, like you really need to re-evaluate this and getting it to Stallone and having Stallone like rewire his thinking around, you know, what this character uh you know could be, you know, changing his >> vision for it. Um, and then in the audition you talk about approaching it uh with this stillness, like this immobility, like this idea that you learned in in in your study of acting >> that the power is in like the non-reaction and the other people who were auditioning were, you know, kind of overacting or whatever. And by you just being still >> that ends up being what cinches it because there's something menacing about that the quietness of it. >> Yes. Uh so there are two parts to the character obviously. One which I already had which was he was a fighter. So I was already a European kickboxing or karate champion. So I could move really well. Let's say for a big white guy I was really had you know good coordination and so forth. So Stallone obviously kind of knew that well he can read he could see that uh because it's hard to teach somebody how to fight for them to look right you [clears throat] know it's difficult and the second part then of course as you know who is his character and and Warren was very very perceptive Warren Robertson my coach because he studied the other guys you know Apollo Creed Mr. tea and everybody's very loud. Oh, I'm going to kill you. I'm gonna you know you know you know you're you're dead meat. Everything was loud and kind of aggressive. So he he said you know um you know you just uh and he had studied with um Marlon Brando and uh Marilyn Monroe like in actor studio back in the day and he did say that Brando had this sting when he said you know just because the director says action doesn't mean you have to do anything >> cuz he's >> that's pretty good. >> Yeah. doesn't mean you have to do anything cuz he's he's famous for which I read much later that he would when when the director said action he would >> I mean he he really knew his talent because he would just he would just walk off off stage off the set and start talking to uh to one of the grips or something until he felt like he was relaxed then he would come in and deliver the dialogue. He was very clever, right? I mean, obviously the best ever. So Warren said, you know, you're so powerful that, >> you know, some of these Russian >> off officers, they have that stoic kind of chin up, you know, hero of the Soviet Union kind of. So if you kind of just stand there and deliver the dialogue and play the internal monologue of the Soviet state is forced to me. They took me when I was a kid >> away from my parents. They made me a fighter. I don't want to do this, but I have to do it. I'm forced to say these words. If all that is interior is internal and you just say the line, you know, I must break you. If you say the line very still, it has a lot of carries a lot of power. So obviously I trusted him and I went to the audition and it had two other Russian guys who were also up for it and they were yeah they were saying I will kill you I will break you in half but I played it very internal and uh yeah and it it was powerful I think and people you know I think I've seen that once the audition I saw part of that they used that speech for the teaser trailer that came out when I just stand there and say, you know, my name is [ __ ] and I'm a fighter from the Soviet Union, blah blah blah. And um yeah, so I got the role. >> Well, well, let's take it back to the beginning. Uh I want to hear a little bit about your upbringing uh in Sweden. Um because I think it would surprise a lot of people. >> Yeah. Uh my upbringing well I I was brought up in a uh upper middle class home. My dad was an engineer. He was an army officer. Um good-looking tall guy. My mom was kind of pretty. She was a language teacher. Uh but she was she had been that and now she was a housewife. I had three siblings. My dad had a had another son in an early from an early marriage and I think that marriage had ended because I think he beat his first wife and the first time he hit her I think she took the kid and split. This is in the >> would be in the 40s >> early 50s. Uh so when I was born um you know I think I heard from my mom uh I think on their honeymoon this is before I was born um they were in Scotland and they took a tour in Scotland and this is 1955 so 10 years after World War II and um and one little anecdote was that they they couldn't get service anywhere you know like they went to restaurants and they would just sit there for an for and then finally some woman came up and said we don't serve Germans here and then of course they were you know Swedish so they had to explain that >> but I think he he uh something happened on the trip and he he didn't talk to my mom for a week and that was on their honeymoon so I think from then he was kind of abusive towards her and I I think he hit me the first time I was probably around three or so I I I was in front of the television vision. He got in his way and he kind of kicked me and I flew into some some some bookshelf and hit my head and I was bleeding. My mom's like screaming and and then of course it just kept going. So there was nowhere to go as a kid. There were no hotlines in in the 60s. Uh my dad worked for the government. He had a kind of a good position in the uh office of budget and management. Yeah. So I kind of got used to this physical abuse that you know later would serve me well you know but you know when I was a kid obviously it's I've learned later you know you're a little boy and you have a big guy my size come in and beat you up it's like a near-death experience they say so >> you get that PTSD >> uh of living in in um under um kind of um inse let's say physically you know, un insecure circumstances for a long time, like a soldier. [snorts] >> So, >> yeah, there was no calling 911 back then. Uh, it was just figuring out how you're going to develop some survival strategies for this. >> I mean, your descriptions of these incidents in the book are are are, you know, they're hard to read. Like, it's it's intense. It was not, you know, minor abuse like and and there's verbal abuse and he's telling you you're a loser and like there's just all kinds [clears throat] of [ __ ] going on. >> Yeah. >> And this resentment also that begins to breed towards your mother cuz she's supposed to protect you and you know she's >> she's sort of you know in her uh you know having her own relationship with how she's trying to survive all of this at the same time. um extremely difficult but and your brain is still wiring right and you're trying to figure out like how am I going to just get through the day and you talk about developing this freeze response to all of this. We all know about like fight or flight but there's a third way to interact with >> a traumatic chaotic scenario. >> Yes, you're right. I I learned about that much later that you know in nature there is fight or flight. Um, say if you're a if you're a gazelle and you're in Africa and you're being chased by lioners, you know, you can fight back. Well, not you can't do that if you're a gazelle because the lion's going to kill you. So, you you go for flight. But sometimes you'll see in a video once the gassel is taken by the line it stops fighting and it just it's called freeze and you kind of go dead and it's sort of all your emotions disappear. And I guess in nature either it could be a way to to to think for for the predator to think you're dead so they stop, you know, like a bear for instance, play dead. But it could also be is to avoid the pain because that way, you know, you're going to die anyway. The lion's going to eat you. So you might as well, you know, calm down a little bit before it's over. I guess it's in there somewhere. Humans have the same people. um you know soldiers as well sometimes you know um you can fight flight but people freeze up too like in a in a gunfight. >> Yeah. It's a it's a disassociation. You hear this with rape victims also like they leave their body you know it's the only way that they can like kind of you know manage what's happening to them. Yeah. In your case, like this ability to separate mind and body and disassociate and freeze ends up becoming a very powerful strategy when you become a martial artist and you know when you're doing your own stunts and >> you become this guy who can just suffer pain at will, right? And this is you know obviously powering you you know through stardom and all these other experiences. And it's just interesting how our unconscious response to trauma become strengths. And you know, I'm sure on a conscious level, you're like, "Oh, this is what separates me from everybody. This is how I'm going to become special and distinguish myself." And it's only later in life where it catches up to you. And you realize like this superpower that I have is actually uh an Achilles heel that is like actually undoing me. >> Yeah. that the the same trauma that I can use to I could hijack this feeling to be a better fighter, to play an action character, to to uh if I do an emotional scene in a movie. But that same that same trauma can also make me uh you know drink, do drugs, uh you know decide to uh go and you know spar with uh you know 10 people maybe when I haven't slept all night because I'm not going to say no and I'll decide to do the stunt myself because I feel like I I I I got to do something. I'm antsy. I got to [ __ ] it. I don't care. I'll jump off the bus or I'll jump from the motorcycle to the truck. I don't care. >> Uh and uh so obviously it's or it can ruin a a marriage for instance uh quite easily and that's uh you know I've been through all of those things. So you know yeah there's a ego armoring piece to it as well. like I can go to Studio 54 all night and still go running at 5:00 in the morning and not only am I going to, you know, be the the, you know, kind of ultimate uh uh warrior in this movie, I'm actually going to do all the stunts also, you know, [laughter] like on top of that. >> Uh which is which is empowering also, but you know, is kind of, you know, can be this megalomania that is going to spoil your relationships and and you know, kind of >> affect Yeah. and and destroy your body and and the like. Yeah. >> Part of it is is the trauma and part of it is some kind of male, I don't know, testosterone, bravado, trying to prove something, trying to prove my dad that he was wrong, you know, uh a combination of all of those. >> Yeah. How much of your ambition do you think is related to your relationship with your father? Like this drive that you that you've had? Well, I I think I had two things. I had the drive from my dad and then I had some kind of feeling from the beginning that life is very precious and very short. And here I am in this little town in Sweden and I'm not going to if I stay here, if I just stay here and do what my my dad has done, I'm going to be very unhappy. This episode is brought to you by Whoop. The best gift that I can give the people I love is me at full capacity. And that's what all of this is [music] actually for. It's not for the metrics, the analytics. It's not for the races. It's for the moments. And this insight has changed how I think about what to give them, [music] the people I care about, because almost everyone I love is carrying something, a training goal, a brutal schedule. And what they what most of us actually need isn't another gadget. It's greater awareness. 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Did you have a premonition that there was a big life waiting for you when you were this kid growing up in Sweden or was it more I just I need to get out of this environment, you know, I have to go somewhere else or I'm never going to survive. >> I think it was the the latter. Yeah. I just wanted to get out of Sweden. It was too small for me. I didn't want to be this abused little boy and who haunts who you know felt bad about himself and uh you know I didn't want to I didn't want to do that and um I wanted to get away from my dad uh and I think you know I got a scholarship to go to America when I was 18 to study chemistry and uh at in Washington state university and >> and that's when first time when people they they didn't know me so I could be a different person and they kind of looked at me totally different, you know. Um, and I think that's what drove me outside of Sweden. I I think it's the the fame part or the bigger life was like a slow kind of >> feeling [clears throat] that kind of grew uh from karate and then uh from doing some modeling and then eventually when I met Grace and uh came to to Manhattan. Yeah, there was a lot of synchronicities along the way like right place, right time >> for you. But even before that, before going to America to study, you know, you your your your first kind of like initial reaction to this chaotic household was to act out like a normal teenager. You're stealing stuff. You're sniffing glue. You're getting into trouble, you know. uh pretty standard fair uh but significant enough for there to be a bit of an intervention and you end up like at your grandfather's house and and and that's really where you start to get sorted out a little bit. you're finding uh alternative father figures and you're realizing that you actually have all this academic potential and you really uh begin to uh get a little bit more serious about the martial arts and >> that feels like a really important period in your life like uh you know that set you up for everything that came afterwards and >> this notion of father figures and mentors is a recurring theme throughout the book. >> Yes, I agree. Uh yeah, I think my dad had I suppose he realized that as I was getting older pretty soon he was going to be in a fight with a young young man or a boy who was >> you're going to you're going to kick his ass pretty soon. You better get him out of here. >> Yeah, get this kid out of here. He's grown too fast. And I think that was part of it. And the other part was probably that he maybe on a deep level knew that it was his it was his um you know it was because of him that I was going through all this. Do you think he was consciously aware of that? >> I think he was subconsciously and I think maybe he loved me and wanted to, you know, saw that I was going to self-destruct if I had stayed. Maybe because I was, you know, >> drinking, running away from home, um, sniffing glue, doing all this stuff that, you know, some of my friends from those days are are dead now. They never made it. So in one way he he had some compassion I think on the low level on the deep level except it could have been self-preservation some of it too. He didn't want me to beat him up. Uh but I'm not sure which but it turned out to be a good thing for me obviously it saved my life. >> Yeah. >> You find your your calling in the classroom and in um the [snorts] dojo basically. Uh, and you know, like I learned so much about you. Like I knew that you were like an athlete scholar, but I didn't realize like, oh, you were European champion twice, two years in a row, like 80 and 81 in in karate. Not only, you know, did you graduate with a chemical engineering uh degree like you had, you know, stints in in America and, you know, where you were furthering your studies and then this fullbrite scholarship opportunity like there's a sliding door where you just become this top scientist. It's crazy. >> It was. Yeah. I think part of that was I was sort of I wanted to prove my dad wrong. I think that I wasn't useless. And >> how'd that go? >> Yeah. Well, I I got admitted to MIT by on a fooled by scholarship. >> Did he give it up for you then? Did he ever did he did he ever get to the point where he could say, "You did it, son." Or >> Yeah, he did. He did twice when I won the uh European Championships. He he was uh you know, he he was impressed by that that time. He was probably uh he was 50 some years old. He kind of mellowed out a little bit. >> Uhhuh. >> And then I got admitted to MIT, had a fullbride scholarship. Uh and yeah, I think he was he was super impressed and I think on a deep level he had had some of these ambitions. He had studied in in Germany, I think, when he was young, but he could never afford to go anywhere. He always wanted to go to America. But I think that I he felt like I had maybe uh fulfilled some of his ambitions on a you know how it goes with parents, right? >> Yeah. >> We were friendly. I mean by that time there was no animosity at all. uh you know I kind of forgiven him because in martial arts also you know it's not about obviously I was by then I was stronger than him and I you're not supposed to just be aggressive and beat somebody up for what they did 20 years ago. >> So I never that never entered my mind really. >> Mhm. >> He ends up uh you know dying quite tragically >> uh bipolar maybe schizophrenic. >> Oh yeah. He had foil on the windows. >> He uh he ended up staying in after he divorced my mom, she moved out and he lived in this old house where he had like >> They divorced. You didn't even know they divorced. >> No, they didn't even tell us. So, we didn't know about it. the kids didn't know because I think what happened was he got fired from his job like early retired early retirement because he blew up on somebody there and uh my mom had inherited some money from her mother and her dad. Uh my grandfather on that side, he was uh he was an inventor actually. He had some invented some radio uh various uh those big radio gramophones, you know, where they they used to have in the 50s and 40s. >> And so he inherited some money. So I think my dad kind of divorced her, got custody of of all the assets and then you know kind of moved her aside and I think that's way part of it was financial reason he did that I think. So all of this was obviously you know not very nice for the kids but especially he was just unhappy and uh he ended up in a mental hospital in London at the end and I was there I visited him a few times. This is you know when I been in the business for almost 20 years and uh he was sort of in a different world towards the end. Uh and uh but I I was told by my therapist that you know his type of bipolar uh you know conditions you can medicate it and he can but you know he would he refused to >> take medication. So yeah he died a lonely man but I mean fortunately he was a bit >> he was in his own world in one way. I think nature mercifully kind of just made him not really understand what was going on. Yeah. [clears throat] >> Speaking of mercy, uh you through all this work that you've done uh with therapy and and and kind of trying to make peace with your upbringing and and resolve and heal this trauma. >> Yeah. >> You know, a big piece in that is is is recognizing that, you know, he was the victim of his own, you know, kind of experience growing up and his [clears throat] emotional needs weren't met and his frustrations and anger and resentment. you know, he he didn't have the outlets for help and healing that you've had, and so he's acting out on those impulses, and you're on the receiving end of that. >> Hurt people hurt people, as they often say. >> Uh, and you found a way to internalize whatever pain you were experiencing and channel it in productive ways. Like you could hurt people on screen and it's not really hurting people. Well, kind of. We're going to get to that. Um and that is the kind of portal to forgiveness and mercy because when you understand like oh he he was just programmed this way and you know it's a result of the pain that he inherited and recognizing that this healing journey that you've been on is so much about healing yourself but also interrupting this generational cycle of trauma so that you're sparing your children from that. And to me, like I've been on a on a a version of this myself and I've just really recognized that if anything, like that is the ultimate job of the parent, you know, to kind of arrest whatever pattern has been passed down generation after generation to spare your children of that and set them up uh you know, liberate them from the pain that you inherited. >> Yeah, that's well well put. I agree. Yeah, I think you're right. That's it takes certain strength to do that. And my dad didn't have that strength. He didn't have the ability to to make that transformation. So just that makes me feel sorry for him, you know, but I've seen old pictures of him when he was a kid in the in the 20s and 30s and like a sailor's uniform they used to wear with a long hair, you know, and he's this cute little kid. He looks, you know, very sensitive and I'm sure he was beaten and he was mal badly treated. My grandfather on his side was he was a very tough guy, army officer, hunter, heavy drinker, came from like a very poor upbringing with 12 siblings. We his mom died when he was 12, I think, and he had to stop working and support the family. I mean, a freaking nightmare. I mean, just can you imagine back in the in the 20s what that was like? So, my dad >> never really got a shot, you know. So yeah, I think you know for me to forgive him and um and like you said try to break the pattern of violence and obviously my kids they my two daughters they have their own trauma some ways because you know I wasn't there all the time I was an actor and you know we got divorced when they were in their teens and and so they have their own version you can't compare pair. There's no scales, you know. >> Yeah. Your pain is your pain. You know, your pain is your pain. >> No matter. And [laughter] not for nothing, like had you not whatever you would have done like paint any scenario like the optimal dad situation. They're going to have there's going to be something, you know, that they're going to like, okay, tell your therapist. You know, >> none of us are doing this perfectly, you know, far from it. So, >> no. And it's like and that's why it's important never to say like, uh, well, when I was your age, you know, right, >> I was beaten three times a day. like it's not going to it's not going to help them. [laughter] >> No. Um but you were and then some. I mean after Okay. So I'm I I can't remember where it falls in the timeline, but like you know you're you're at uh University of Washington. Yeah. Or in Washington State. >> Washington State. And then you're at Clemson. >> But you end up going back to Sweden and you know entering into the special forces training that was after that, right? which is essentially like SEAL team training. >> Yes. >> Uh why did you decide to do that? And uh is that just sort of like a cultural imperative in Sweden or something that you needed that challenge? >> I was drafted like most Swedish men during the Cold War. I was drafted and I was put in a coastal artillery unit which um basically they used to we used to have artillery uh co coastal artillery. Um, Sweden was in neutral, so it was, you know, you can never say, well, who's the enemy? But for some reason, all the guns were pointed eastward. So, I guess, you know, towards Russia, but, you know, you weren't supposed to say like, oh, because NATO or the war so packed. But I was in that unit. And then we had an offer to join this Navy Seal unit, but you had to go through a selection course and a process to do that. And I decided I wanted to try it. And uh that's when I hurt my ankle actually the first time. Uh which I had surgery on only a few years ago. But it was it was a tough course and um most guys didn't make it. I think maybe about 20 20% made it or so. And um it was just another test I think to wanted to just impress my my dad maybe. >> You're you're burying the lead a little bit. You mentioned uh injuring your ankle, but you know, this is another cinematic scene in the movie of your life where you're trudging out in the snow for god knows how long and you twist your an you roll your ankle or whatever. You just decide the solution to this is tightening up your boots and and just toughing it out for another like day and a half in the, you know, frozen tundra. This is the costume of the warrior that you've adorned and, you know, befitting of a soldier. uh and speaks to like that, you know, kind of relationship with suffering and the disassociation between like, you know, mind and body. >> Yes, you're right. It's uh Yeah, it's a it's a strange strange um domain. It's a shadow land where when you get pushed past a certain point, you're in you're in another world. you know, you probably you're doing an ultra athlete, so you know, it's like you don't know how you're going to react, especially when it involves physical pain and violence. And I I always looked at myself as a peaceful u kind of shy and sort of uh uh in introvert person. Mhm. >> But of course then there's the other side that comes out kind of like a do like a Mr. Hyde, you know, there's the other guy who comes out when he gets pushed to a certain point >> which when I'm kind of there watching on the sidelines myself. Oh, okay. Now this is going to happen like >> and you're kind of just kind of not even conscious of what's happening. You're essentially this very sensitive artistic-minded uh kid who is anxiety riddled and insecure and you know had you had a different set of parents might have >> you know grown up in Venice, California and a sculptor or something like you know what I mean but you're in the body of this guy you know like the the dissonance between like the figure that you cut your physicality and like what you're kind kind of internal experiences is is is like is quite the delta. >> That's what's interesting. You're right. Yeah. I mean I have some um speaking of there are few people like that I mean that I've had you know met in my life um there in in the in this business like people like Sylvester Stallone for instance who had a similar upbringing I believe is no secret similar but you know also is an artist very sensitive and he has this other side too that kind of warrior side and >> it happens And and there's a certain I think there's something in that that the camera kind of feels because you know if you look at the old movie stars like the Robin Mitchums and these guys they were on the chain gangs and they were like hard drinkers and they had that other side and then they they had a sensitivity as well >> and I think that some of that is quite attractive in in cinema. So I just I just thought of that. >> Yeah. I mean that ineffable quality of of of depth that you know comes across on screen without saying anything. It's like a look in the eyes or a facial expression >> that speaks to uh you know kind of an interior experience that doesn't quite match the physical appearance. >> Yes. that people feel >> uh that there is something else there like that some there's there's a level of kind of some compassion or something underneath even if that character is like shooting people. >> Mhm. >> Or like you know doing something very vicious you still feel it. It's it's kind of I mean obviously a lot of actors you know play these sort of dark characters and they started like Robert Dairo or somebody you know I mean you're watching him like with a baseball bat, you know, crushing somebody's skull, but you still >> you still feel the character is being a human being and kind of, you know, >> having some some sensitivity at somehow. It's strange. >> So that's where it all started for me. >> I was, you know, because I had those two sides, I guess, and and I was lucky that I ended up in the cinema because I could use both of those. >> Yeah. Yeah, >> otherwise I would have been, you know, seriously alcoholic, you know, chemical engineer somewhere [laughter] with three three failed marriages behind. >> Yeah. Who knows, man. Uh >> and in jail probably for killing somebody. >> Yeah. Uh but God put you on a pretty unique path, [laughter] my friend. [clears throat] I mean, so when I mentioned synchronicities earlier, what comes after this is you end up in Sydney, you're getting your graduate degree in chemical engineering, >> and just to make ends meet, you're uh you're like a doormat at nightclubs, like a, you know, kind of like enforcer out front, uh, >> cash business, >> you end up like kickboxing some guy in the face because he got out of line trying to get into this club and somebody takes notice and before you know it, uh, you're hired to uh protect Grace Jones or stand outside her dressing room door for some appearance that she's making. And this is the kind of first inflection point that that [laughter] you know completely sets your life on a new trajectory. >> Oh yeah. I was so innocent back then. I think I had one girlfriend in my life and I'm 20 25. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. And I remember standing there. It's like I have this sort of uh snapshot image of me standing outside and her kind of with some looking past the makeup artists, you know, over his shoulder and clocking me out there and, you know, you feel the vibes. And then I ended up doing security at some club where she went out with all of her friends and my my sparring partner who was another big guy, Australian guy was there and and he I think she was dancing with him or I was too shy to do anything like that but you know he was kind of hitting on her but you know obviously you know we ended up going back to her hotel had she had a big suite. I'd never seen a big suite before in a hotel. And she had an entourage, maybe 20 people. Then there's 10. Then there's eight and four. And then suddenly it's just like me, him, and her manager. And then he he kind of he he gets sent home. And then finally the manager leaves too. And then there's just I kind of realized somewhere in there what was going on. And >> and I ended up spending the night with her, you know, missing a few classes next day. And and I was a bit it was a bit of a shock for me. I was a bit I I didn't know why what you saw in me I couldn't put it together like I didn't feel like I deserved it you know. >> Well that sense of undeservedness is a is a you know deep a deep wound that kind of recurs in how you show up in your life at various stages. >> Yeah. I think also sexually, you know, I was like s such a uh amateur, you know, [laughter] like I mean she wasn't you're so vulnerable and canderous in the book. I mean, you talk about like, you know, sexual performance anxiety and, you know, it's like people see you and they're like, "What?" You know, like how is this guy, you know, having this issue? >> Well, I did make up for some of that, Peter. >> [laughter] >> So years ago, before any of this, I needed a website. So I did what you did back then. I hired a designer. I waited months. 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I was went to Tokyo to train karate with the main um master of that style and she was there doing a commercial for uh Honda I think it was a car commercial. Um and um and then I went straight to New York with her. we uh so that winter I came to New York and uh then that that year I was supposed to start MIT so I had like 6 months off because southern hemisphere you know the schools they they uh graduate in um uh in December so they their summer vacation is over the holidays so it was kind of backwards so I had >> kind of a a semester before I was supposed to start at MIT so that semester I was in New York and that's when all this stuff happened with Warhol Poland and you know started went to an acting class all of these things. >> So by the time I was supposed to go to MIT which I did with her on the back just to like check it out see if I could if I could do it it was um nine months later I was uh that's it. I I dropped the ball and I just uh >> decided to become a you know somewhat starving actor in New York um slashdoorman. This is the uh montage in the movie where you know it's just like you know fast cuts of you know David Bowie and Michael Jackson and Madonna and Steve Rubel and Studio 54 and the Factory and all of that. >> Uh oh yeah >> but where does the impulse to study acting come up? Like you end up you know with this acting coach. >> Yeah. >> Um and that's obviously another decision that changes your life. >> Yeah. Right. >> And another sort of father figure mentor. >> Right. Yes. I met this guy Warden Robertson who was a an acting coach upper east side in New York in Manhattan. He worked with Grace because she was going to be in um Arnold's follow-up uh Conan the Destroyer. >> Mhm. So I met him through her and I guess I felt some urge with acting that it was something interesting people on stage you know being emotional and he was very much into kind of primal scream and he was into he was a very perceptive guy like he could tell right away talking to me that I had some issues I had trauma something with my dad. So I I remember I did a couple of scenes there and one scene was um I one scene I remember was from the uh on the waterfront which is a Marlon Brando picture where he kind of breaks down the door and he's like arguing with Eva Marie Saint and he kind of while they're arguing she won't let him in he breaks down the door and they kissing and you know anyway towards the end of the movie. So I did that scene and um you know he before I did it I did it kind of a bad version and then he got me very emotional because of my dad and I had to stand there and there's like 75 people in the audience and you stand there and he talks to you and and then you kind of talk back maybe you speak to your dad like he had me speak to my dad and get really emotional and upset and then okay now I start the scene. So I kind of did this scene and then people seem to enjoy it and and then I said, "Wow, this is this is amazing. I'm like I feel better now." So I kind of hijacked my emotion and I got it I got to, you know, express it somehow and I felt better. Then I had to talk to him a little bit later and he said something uh like um you know maybe the reason you've tried all these different things are because maybe you're an artist, maybe you're not a chemical engineer, you know, maybe that's what you should do, you know, and I and I I thought he it made sense to me. So I think at some point there Grace also realized that wow, I'd kind of misjudged this guy. Yeah, >> you know, I'm not just, you know, good-looking, you know, you know, ass ass kicking, you know, chemical, I mean, chemical engineer who does karate, but there's an other side that I got sort of obsessed with acting and and uh I could tell that when I was on stage, people enjoyed watching for some reason, even though I was a complete amateur, they there was something about me that they wanted people wanted to see. And then when I would like with Grace, people took pictures of me and stuff. They didn't know who I was, you know. >> Yeah. You were a sidearm guy. Like you're at all the places, but you're the unknown. You're you're striking in your appearance. But it wasn't because you had done anything. You were just there with Grace. >> Yeah. >> Grace realizing like, oh, there's >> this other aspect to this guy. >> Yeah. >> Uh maybe initially she thought that was cool, but that becomes problematic later. >> Yeah. Then it started becoming problemat problematic. I I started, you know, she helped me in the beginning and I her agent became my agent and then he set me up for some roles and I I started getting like callbacks for >> different movies and uh very quickly and um >> uh one was actually uh Stallone was doing his Rambo sequel Rambo 2 when he goes to Vietnam and it was a big hit later and there was a Russian character in that movie that he he fights this guy in the chopper at the and and they wanted me for that. But you know at the same time I'm also auditioning for this boxing movie and it turns out to be another Stallone picture. So eventually ended up a year later once I got the role in Rocky then they kind of paid me off for the other role which is a lot of money for me in those days five grand or something and I was like yes I got I didn't have to do it and then I was doing the Rocky movie and uh but you know you're right it started um I started sort of uh accessing parts of me in in the acting work that made me Um, >> it was pleasant in one way, but it was also uncomfortable. And I started >> this confrontation with your past. >> When I read that, I'm thinking [clears throat] about how, you know, >> you can translate your pain into these superpowers. You did it, you know, as a as a student and you did it as an athlete. And now in the arts, you're finding a way to like channel these experiences that are so difficult uh and translate them into, you know, some kind of artistic sensibility that it that that empowers your acting career. You know, it's so interesting. Um you talk about you shared that story about like him encouraging you to like have this conversation with your dad and you're able to like cry on Q. >> Um and that's like a you know like a direct experience of that trauma. But I'm wondering like did that make you want to seek more healing for that or was that just like oh I can use this. I'm going to keep it compartmentalized and chambered but I can bring it out when I need it so I can uh use it as a tool or a utility. >> Yeah, I think that's what it was. I just kept it compartmentalized. I kept it as kind of a secret weapon to >> Yeah. make a character more interesting or you know to get out of my head to get more emotional would you know be make me less um you know self-conscious as an actor and obviously I sometimes think about you know had I not gotten a Rocky for role had I stayed there and studied acting properly not just six months but like for six years or something like I did with karate What would that have looked like? You know, uh it wasn't meant to be, but >> could have been like a stage actor or like a deep dramatic actor. Unfortunately, you're packaged in this, you know, incredibly beautiful body and that was not your destiny. >> So, you get this bit part in a James Bond movie, small small little part. >> Rocky four comes after that. Stallone famously said, uh, "This guy's perfect, uh, for the role, uh, and people are going to hate him because he's too perfect." >> Yeah. >> Like your perfection, uh, becomes, you know, like the reason that the audience is going to turn against you. >> Um, which I think is >> super insightful and also very funny. And this this begins, >> you know, you go on this, you know, cue the next montage right out of Rocky where you you go on this insane uh kind of training to prepare for this role. Um, but it's the beginning of this very interesting relationship that uh you have with Sylvester Stallone, like a closeness, a kinship and a friendship, but also, you know, not without its competitive nature and and kind of like headbutting, you know, uh, incidents along the way. >> Yeah. Uh, yeah. We are destined somehow to you know to have to be connected somehow artistically and and and personally uh which I don't think happened to >> you has certainly has has not happened to other people I've worked with and and uh I don't I think it's quite unusual for him too >> that somebody he worked with 40 years ago you know we ended up doing what how many movies together? 1 2 3 4 five six films together over 40 years. So quite unusual I think. Yeah. In the business. >> You train like a maniac for this role. You do the movie. >> Uh you're doing ADR in post. You're not really thinking too much about you're seeing some footage. You're not impressed. Uh so it seems like you're not, you know, staking your future on what's going to happen with this movie. And then you attend the premiere. So tell the story of the before and the after of that evening. >> Oh yeah. The premiere of Rocky 4. It was November 85 in Westwood at the >> Westwood Marquee I think it was. [clears throat] And they had a new CEO of um MJMs. They had the marching bands and the elephants and the whole thing. And uh you know I came out of the limo and I'm Grace Jones's uh you know boyfriend, toy boy, whatever. And people are trying to get me out of the way, take pictures of her. Um, and u, yes, they some folks may have known that I was, you know, the villain in the movie, but not many. I don't think >> it wasn't like now there's social media and people didn't really know. And I sat down and in my seat and then, you know, the movie starts with these two these two gloves, a Soviet glove, American glove. And uh I remember sitting this with my mouth open like for 90 minutes just staring and um >> cuz you hadn't seen >> I hadn't seen the picture and I I didn't realize how powerful those close-ups were like this you know that they shot where you know the old tungsten lighting that illuminates your eyes and you know on the big screen is very powerful and the character this is during the cold war so you had like a real people are really Um, you know, people had feelings about the Soviet Union and about that that confrontation. Possible there's a nuclear standoff going down much bigger than, let's say, there's a war in Iran. Well, okay. But [clears throat] the Soviet Union, they had 10,000 nuclear, >> you know, warheads. It was different. So, I think the the lights came up and I was in shock. I think that I realized the movie was super powerful. I was moved at the end. Uh, I was moved by my character. I was moved by, you know, Rocky winning, who I thought was was the right way. This should have ended that way. I was and I and I turn around and everybody's looking at me for some reason. And I was like, you know, and I remember Stallone had told me, "Just wait, wait till this film opens. Forget the Bond movie, this Rocky Picture. It's going to be huge." And uh as I walked out of the theater, people are taking pictures of me. There's photographers everywhere and they're asking me questions. There's like press there and and I was a bit uh disoriented. I I felt I felt a little almost a little ill like I I sort of felt like, oh wow, this is this is going to be difficult. And especially with grace, I felt also that just instantaneously I kind of just felt that I don't very u disoriented. And uh I I read somewhere that somebody said that when you get famous it it um halters your development like you freeze at that age or something. >> Yeah. similar to like they say that in in recovery also like you're when you get sober you're the emotional age of when you began using you know it [laughter] completely arrests your emotional development >> maybe it's right because if you think about people like Michael Jackson or you know Elvis and become very famous very at a young age right so I think maybe I 20 27 years old 28 years old so I I uh I probably had some kind of shock and it took me a few years to to recover. >> Yeah. >> 10 years. >> Everything was different after that. >> Everything was different. And also it was back in the day when you were either a TV actor >> on a TV show or you were a movie star and there [clears throat] was nothing literally in between. And you know, real movie stars like let's say like Jack Nicholson, he never did any any talk shows. There was no press. You couldn't see him anywhere. Oh, maybe in a paparazzi photo, but you you could only experience that person by going to the movies. So, it was like more of a kind of a magical kind of a >> Yeah. >> feeling when people saw you in real life. >> Yeah. There was a mystique. You know, we weren't We didn't have a 247 news cycle where there's a whole industry around reporting on every celebrity's every move. I think I probably >> thought you were Russian even though your name is Lundren, you know, like >> Sure. Sure. >> Because there wasn't really anything out there about you, but I was a senior in high school when that movie came out. >> It was huge. And I think also the way it was shot and directed, Stallone directed it. Um, and um, Bill Butler was the DP who shot a lot of movies in the 80s. He had that fantastic lighting. So, it has this modern quality uh, with the montages, the music, the freeze frames, the big close-ups. It's it's quite modern. So I think a lot of movies that made in the 80s, they've aged quite not not that well. Like it's kind of hard to watch them now, but Rocky four kind of young kids still watch it and and they can still kind of uh can can kind of enjoy it. You know, >> you become this overnight sensation as a result of Rocky 4. uh you have the delirium of instant fame and and you know what that kind of like reaps in your personal life uh and I want to talk about that but on a professional level now you're in the limelight you I think have been in like 80 movies over the years like your IMDb is you know super long like you've done a ton of stuff >> but at the same time you're in the conversation with guys like Stallone and Vanam and Schwarzenegger >> and these guys just ascend to superstardom and your path is a little bit different. >> Well, yeah, you're right. What happened was I think late '7s and bodybuilding came like early '7s pumping iron and then Arnold did um Conan the Barbarian like 78 or something and then he did uh then Sly came and did you know uh First Blood and then Arnold did Terminator 85 I think it was. We did Rocky 4. Suddenly you you couldn't fake it. Like if you wanted to play an athlete, you had to be an athlete. And all these guys, they found all these, you know, a lot of Europeans actually like Vanam, myself, Van Schwarzenegger. Then you had Stallone. Uh you also had Seagal came up. You had to have the abs. You had to have the body. You had to be able to to look like you could kick ass. you had to be able to run and jump and do everything yourself because >> uh there was this new kind of body culture and and this you you didn't have CGI yet. So you couldn't use a stunt guy. So there's that period between like say late 70s until 1988 where I think it was 88 when or ' 89 when um um Tim Burton put a Michael Katon in a muscle suit >> and Michael Kitney did the acting and then he had the suit for the muscles and then he we had they probably had a couple of doubles do the fighting and >> and that changed things quite a bit. So I came out 90 or 91 when he came out. though in between there that was when I when we started and of course you know I was in the same group as Stallone and Arnold and these guys obviously they're older than me but I think the difference was that Arnold he was a very um driven guy very he had a plan he wanted to be Mr. universe and he wanted to be a movie star and then he wants to be governor and uh Sly was an artist you know he was a good writer. uh Vanam also is very clever business guy you know uh I was just this kid who you know a couple years earlier was going to MIT and uh hitting the bag you know and now suddenly I'm a movie star so I didn't really know how to proceed so I kind of I got some bad advice I I I would say now in retrospect I some of the my adviserss managers weren't the best people in the business and uh you know um I still survived by just sheer you know perseverance but I don't think I you know really I wasn't really focused on the right projects on my craft on these things either it was like have take a business approach like like Arnold or take like a creative approach like Stallone somewhere in between but I didn't really take any of that I just kind of followed what people told me so so for me it was it was a tough time. You know, I did movies that did fairly well a couple of four they say three or four movies after Rocky 4 and then it kind of started petering out because I didn't have Stallone to look out for me. I didn't have MGM. I didn't have a good directors, a good script. So, I think it became more of a struggle like early 90s from there on it sort of became more of a struggle. my trauma started to kind of come up and make itself, you know, uh, announce itself in my private life. Uh, I started kind of, you know, partying a little harder and doing crazier stuff on the stunt front and and training and and yeah, so I kind of it was it was um yeah, the sort of in initial allure of fame was kind of given away to sort of a dayto-day kind of a more of a a harder existence. You know, >> you have these guys like Arnold and Sly. They're on a mission. Yeah. Like they came to Hollywood with a dream and a purpose. They've been, you know, they've been imagining, you know, a cake they've been baking for a very long time and they will not be denied. >> No. >> You show up like, "Oh, maybe I'll take some acting class." Like, this is all kind of happening to you. Yeah. >> You didn't arrive with that degree of intention that you've been thinking about for a long time. So, there's that piece. Yes. Then you have Arnold who's just, you know, >> have you ever met anyone with more self-confidence, you know, and charisma like >> he had this self-belief like he was going to manifest this no matter what and he could just see it happening. >> Then we have you uh not only are you kind of new to town and like yeah, you're getting some acting chops and you're getting a bunch of attention, but like >> you're sort of a deer in headlights in this situation. you hadn't really thought it through. Uh you have this amazing break with Rocky 4, but you know, was there even a plan about like how to build upon that afterwards? Not to mention this insecure kind of anxiety riddled like inner child. Uh you know, you you said the trauma started to like, you know, create some negative behaviors. Yeah. >> In the aftermath of this. Um, not the least of which I would imagine was, you know, just a sense of like undeservedness, like, hey, I'm lucky. Like, I don't know that, you know, like I really like I don't I'm not Arnold or I'm not this guy. And maybe that manifested as a little self-sabotage or, you know, just a lack of self-belief. like I don't want to project upon you, but I'm curious around like how you think about it in that context like the relationship to your childhood and and how you you know what your inner monologue was at that time when all that was happening. >> Um you know having a lack of a vision and a plan from the beginning you know makes you a little less uh focused you know because you not really know what you're looking for. Mhm. >> Obviously, fame was great. You know, I was single. I'm meeting a lot of young pretty girls. You know, I a lot of new friends. You know, I could work out. I could travel around the world. I could uh uh enjoy fame. Um make money I hadn't didn't have before. There was a lot of new aspects to it that that were quite um seductive, you know. Um, I think also I kind of knew on a deep level that I did have this problem, this trauma, the kind of addictive personality. Could addictive to stunts or training or it could be addicted to drugs or alcohol or >> Yeah. You call it sex or whatever. >> Escape behavior. >> Escape behavior. Yeah, I heard about that. You, you know, you have I talk about it in the book where you you know, you're trying to escape something that's inside you. You [clears throat] know, it's like a soldier drinking or being involved in violence or sexual affairs or but you you have to deal with what's there >> or body perfection, the training. >> Oh, that too. Yeah. Why >> I had older uh the escape behavior and I think what happened was uh early 90s my mother passed away in '92. She was quite young, only 60. And yeah, she didn't protect me, but I loved her. And she was a very gentle, very loving, sweet person. Never heard her raise her voice or do anything, you know, negative once, I think, in her life. She was one of those people, just very giving. And I there it was a bit of a shock to me, you know, very she had passed away very suddenly. Uh and I met this Swedish girl in New York. Uh, and I kind of I got engaged to her and I I wanted to replace my mom, I think. So, I I uh and and this girl, she she was great at that time. She hated LA, didn't like Hollywood at all. So, we ended up moving to New York first and then eventually we moved back to Europe. And I think part of that was to satisfy her. And the other part was maybe I had a feeling that I didn't have the strength to survive maybe in Hollywood with my trauma and I would have self-destructed perhaps like I started when I was a kid before my dad got me up to to my grandparents. So >> I I went back to Europe and kind of removed myself from Hollywood scene a little bit. And so I think that affected my career, you know, because once you're gone, once you even go to Miami, you know, it's not the same thing as being in LA, but going to Marba, Spain, 7,000 kilometers from here, 5,000 miles from here, you know, that impacted my career quite quite substantially. And I I I wanted to create have a family with her. And I think I wanted to have like a normal life somehow. and and I I felt that I wasn't cut out for Hollywood maybe at that time. I was doing movies but I I wanted a bit of a of she wanted the distance and I think I I didn't mind either. I was kind of led along there. I don't know if it would have been better to stay in smack in the middle of Hollywood or if if that would have been very uh a very negative thing for me. You know, I could have got in trouble in all kinds of ways. >> Yeah. I mean, it sounds like self-preservation [clears throat] to get out of there to, you know, spare yourself the, you know, the pain of your inevitable demise if you, you know, kind of stayed here. >> If we, if we had a People magazine from 1989 and took a look and see who was still around, there' be a lot of people who never, you know, Yeah. >> be dead or >> Yeah, of course. Yeah. A lot of casualties. This is like and also like as much as I romanticize the like kind of you know studio 54 of it all like you know a lot of those people died you know this is >> this you know was not for the weak of heart at all. Uh and it just you know everything is preying on your your baser instincts to behave badly and if you're >> you know already prone to that kind of behavior because of you know your past uh you know it's not going to go well. So, I think it was a survival mechanism to like get out of town. Um, also, not for nothing, like the chaos of how your relationship with Grace ended. I mean, when the power dynamic shifted and you were no longer the arm piece and now you're the center of attention, like >> that relationship becomes dysfunctional. Uh, she is challenged by that and, you know, there's a lot of insane behavior. where there's throwing bricks and voodoo dolls and like burning your pictures and your clothes and you know guns and all kinds of stuff, right? And and and this this sort of codependency aspect to that relationship that you have to extract yourself out of that and you find a net and it's like, "Oh, this is this feels like home. You know, this this feels stable. Your mom's passed away. >> Um I can build a life with this person. Like >> this is a way of saving myself." >> I think you're right. Yeah, I did. I think my last picture that went on the big screen um was Universal Soldier was 1992 around the time I met Annette and then I think one we had one more John [clears throat] Monic with a young Kiana Reeves. >> But you know after that I wasn't on the big screen until 2010. So that's uh what is that 17 years later. this Johnny Pneumonic movie uh provided you with the opportunity to return to Sweden and do some press. >> Yeah. And also later I did this thing called summer. I was a summer host where you it was a radio show where you play music and you talk about your life. This is quite a bit later and I did that. My oldest daughter was quite young and I decided the the producer the female producer had told me when I told her my story. Oh, the one thing about your dad is really good. You should talk about that. So I talk this did the summer this radio show when I spoke about my relationship to my dad. And so it starts with me being a kid sitting on his shoulders and we're watching the changing of the guards and they play some Swedish mar famous march and it starts there and then it goes everything that happens between that moment and the the moment Rocky Ford opened. So that's the whole thing that Swedes the Swedes didn't know did not know about me. And when I did that and I got very emotional speaking about it, that changed everything in Sweden. And after that, they kind of >> Yeah. >> took me to >> they embraced you. You went from pariah to hero like in one interview >> more or less. >> What's interesting about that to me is it demonstrates the power of vulnerability as a vehicle for connection. Like >> Yeah. by you having the courage to like share that very you know intimate story about your upbringing and I don't know what the culture was like in Sweden at that time around talking about this kind of stuff but >> obviously that really connected with people and they were able to see your humanity and that allowed them to you know form a new story around like who you who you [clears throat] are and >> perhaps that's the first time that you had like that kind of direct encounter with like being honest and open as this like, you know, stoic person who's always armored up and thinking that's the way to connect with people and realizing like no, it's this other way. >> Yeah, you're right. That's it's it's it was true then and it's true now. I think that people, you know, especially in our world, I mean, there's so much uh so much that's manufactured and that is, you know, either AI or CGI or, you know, planned by no offense to anybody here, publicists or uh you know, it's everything is like um it's a story that's been rehearsed, >> but if you if you're honest about things, it can be quite powerful, I think. >> Did you clock that at that time? Like were you were you consciously aware? I was I didn't didn't know it was going to be like that, but I I had a feeling that I wanted to be honest about it because I also my kids never knew what was what's wrong with our dad. Like why is he like that? Like why does he go out drinking? Why is he why doesn't he connect sometimes? And they weren't sure. They didn't know what had happened to me. But my daughter was there and uh you know kids are very she was little but you know kids are very emotional so she started crying too because I was getting emotional and you know they just pick it up right and I think you know um I I told them the story after that too about my dad. I had never told them what had happened to [clears throat] me. So, uh, it sort of opened up a whole other world for me where I realized, well, this can actually be, um, a positive thing for me. It doesn't have to be a secret that makes me feel bad. >> It's almost the opposite. as somebody who was so used to or acclimated to like cutting a certain pose and making sure that you were protected behind this mask of, you know, ultimate masculinity. Um, I would imagine there was a sense of like fear or risk about like sharing that publicly for the first time and thinking like how are people going to they're going to think about me differently now? Now I'm vulnerable like I'm supposed to be the ultimate warrior, you know? Yeah, I mean I've been through it a few times and lately with the the cancer and then you know at that time it was the first time that I was that I opened up and it felt really good and it made me feel better than what I'd felt when I was acting or better than I felt, you know, almost any time in my life to share things and to share my story and my pain was was making me feel better. Mhm. >> And I also think because I wasn't using I wasn't really getting dramatic roles where I could express it that much like it wasn't like you know family dramas or anything. It was like you know an action guy. Yeah. He gets upset you know they his buddy dies or something but it's you know kind of killing spree. >> Yeah. Exactly. But so I couldn't couldn't use my work either to express it. But I think um yeah it was it was a great feeling and uh I wish I would have done more of it. But over the years I've gotten I've shifted more I think into that space of uh sharing trying to share some wisdom I guess or you know some emotions uh that maybe other people can uh relate to. >> Yeah. You're in Marba uh you're you're making movies. Uh you're doing your thing, you're raising your kids, maybe drinking a little bit too much. Yeah. >> Marriage maybe not going so great. Uh but you know, it's a life. Um then 2010 rolls around, your brother Sly gives you a call and you're kind of back in the game again with this Expendables movie, uh which you build upon and you're kind of back doing interesting things again. like there is this second or third act where uh you're doing larger projects than you have in a long time. Uh and 2015 rolls around. >> Yeah. Well, uh what happened was first I I knew I had to move back to to uh to the states for my finances, for my career. It was it was basically I took a 90% salary salary cut between say 1993 when I moved to like 200 whatever 2005 and um um my wife didn't want to move and I we ended up having a lot of problems and I I got divorced in 2010 moved back to LA. Slide called me for expandables. That was a hit. And now I'm sort of on the path to doing other things. And I am, you know, I am getting more I'm getting into therapy. I'm doing uh meditation. I started working with uh with my um >> what prompted that? >> Um I was in another relationship with another woman uh a Swedish girl actually and she and I knew I was going to screw it up. I I I knew I was going to I have to do something. I was still drinking too much. I was flirting with other women and I figured and she was the one who told me about the meditation. And then another >> vap it was vaposa, right? Yeah, the pass and also I I uh somebody said uh you know you should try therapy because I was my uh an actor a friend of mine and I so I got into both and it started changing my life and I started feeling much better you know less anxious um you know less escape behavior and then 2015 rolls around like you said and I'm in Sweden doing some karate training I thought I had u got kicked in the kidney or something cuz I was I had blood in the urine, but it turned out to be kidney cancer. So, you know, this is I didn't tell anybody and I I still ended up doing another Expendables. I ended up doing Aquaman. I did uh you know, Creed 2. I I I went through had surgery about five years later. You're supposed to be uh I was supposed to be cancer free 2020. So that was a period of personal growth I guess back in LA career picked up again and then uh in 2020 the cancer came back. >> Mhm. >> 2015 kidney cancer diagnosis. >> Yeah. >> You treat it, >> it goes into remission. >> Yeah. >> You don't really tell anyone what's going on. >> No. Is that because you're afraid that it will cost you rolls or is it just this protective armor of, you know, trying to maintain this aura of invincibility? Is it the is it a like trauma response like you don't want to show weakness or you don't want the people around you, your children, to have to suffer, so you're going to suffer in silence? >> Um, I think it had more to do with uh my career. I was afraid that it would change my image or people weren't going to offer me any work. I mean, my kids knew about it. I told them uh I had a [clears throat] vacation in Europe and we were on a yacht, I remember, and I told both my daughters. It was in Italy and they both were crying, of course. I told them that I had a tumor in my kidney and we're going to take it out. And so, they knew about it, but not a lot of other people did. Um, I think it was just I didn't know where to start. I didn't I I was scared. Um I um I didn't want people to uh you know think that I was going to die and not offer me any movies or >> Yeah. Yeah, >> I think a combination and also not to bother other people, you know, like to to feel sorry for me >> friends and and uh you know, not my kids knew and some of my close friends, but you know, the rest of the world. So, I didn't want them to um have to worry about me, I guess. >> And work becomes uh an easy and accessible escape behavior. Yes, work became very even more uh accessible. I uh I did a lot of roles. I did my own stunts, a lot of stuff in Aquaman 2, Aquaman one. I did the Creed 2. I did a bunch of action movies, kept training, kept also I was taking, you know, steroids. I was taking HGH stuff that can enhance tumor growth. Yeah. I was I was just on a on a kind of a like in a testosterone kick. [clears throat] >> Mhm. That was like a 10-year period of that. Yeah. >> Yeah. In my movies, my movies and uh because of my movies and also because of sports and some things I was doing, fighting and and other things I was doing. But I I think it was also not knowing how to slow down. And I didn't know how to [snorts] stay home and read a book or anything like that or lay on the couch and I couldn't even think about doing that. So now I can but I couldn't. [laughter] >> So uh chemical engineer advanced degrees in in chemical engineering gets his hands on steroids. >> Yeah. >> Like what is that? you know, like, you know, like that had to be, you know, you being some kind of uh uh mad scientist at that point, you know, experimenting on yourself and >> Well, yeah, the experimentation started earlier in the 80s, but I think it was more like a guy who was really into his body and um and you know, wanting to see, you know, how far can I take it? And here, oh, this stuff's supposed to be good. Now, I don't I recover faster. I get bigger muscles and uh a lot of other guys are doing it and you know when you're 30 years old you don't think of >> you know don't think of any any repercussions or anything negative. So, I did it on and off when I was younger and then then I was off it for for a while. Then I would do it a little bit and you keep doing it and I think I after the uh cancer the first cancer scare I I think I was afraid of feeling weak so I I went back and I >> Oh, you did you did it after your Wow, that's interesting cuz Yeah. Listen, uh muscles aren't [laughter] the only thing that these things grow. >> No. you know, that's really that's that's like high-risisk behavior to do that. >> It is. And and even now, actually, um I was talking to my oncologist about it. Um you know, a lot of these new wellness, longevity um medications, >> and all people haven't taken them long enough for for there to be enough re evidence or scientific evidence to what it really does, >> you know. So, We who knows what we're going to what it's going to look like 20 years from now. >> Yeah. >> So, you survive that first bout with cancer. You go into remission. 2020 rolls around. Peak COVID. [laughter] >> Everyone shut down. Everything is shut down. And I uh I was doing a movie in uh in uh Alabama. and it gets shut down because actually I was directing and it got shut down because of CO and uh somebody says hey don't come back to LA it's even worse Alabama is a little more a little more open so we stay there me my wife Emma my new wife uh I was not married to her yet I was u um I was seeing her u and um and then somebody said well Sweden's really open you should go to Sweden so I went to Sweden and uh same thing happened like the first time I I I was training and uh uh and I started feeling a bit ill. I went for a CAT scan and there was another tumor. There was like uh six tumors in that same area where they taken the one out. So I I wasn't an expert but I knew enough about cancer where you have six more tumors in that area. It's not a good good sign. And it was the week that I'd planned to to um ask Emma to marry me. And it wasn't very easy to plan that because it was during COVID. I had special permission to use this roof terrace and I had hired uh violinist and my friends were going to show up and this was like on Thursday and on Tuesday I found out. So I was like, "Oh [ __ ] you know, what am I going to do?" I bought the ring and everything. So I just I'm just I'll go ahead and do it anyway. So I went ahead and did it. Um, and we got engaged, but obviously there was a kind of >> And then by the way, >> by the way, yeah, >> I mean, it had like spread all over. >> Well, it wasn't just >> No, it's it was hadn't yet. It was there around the kidney and what happened was I went back to America. I had surgery again, the same hospital. Um and then um and then I went back and finished that picture, the one that that was um that was put on hold because of COVID. And then they realized, oh, it spread a little bit and I was going to get rid of that. And then then they couldn't do it. It was the tumor had gotten too big. So I they gave me immunotherapy, which is when you take drugs, IV drugs, and they help you boost your own immune system. But they have you know bad side effects like you get sores on your feet in your mouth. You can get blood clots in your lungs which I did. So you have to take blood thinners etc. lose weight you know. Um so I I did that you know for about 6 months and it did turn out I found out later that those were the wrong drugs. I was misdiagnosed. they they they weren't going to help no matter how much of it I took because the type of cancer I had was another mutation that you have to really look at the cells to determine what it is and they hadn't done that >> at that point before getting the second opinion. >> Yeah. >> You were under the impression that this was the end of the road essentially like you didn't you weren't going to beat it this time. Uh, I uh I don't know if I I know I don't think I gave up, but I was told I mean I did I did another I did two pictures in London. Aquaman and Expendables 4 I shot in London while I was doing all this. >> Wow. >> And I was fairly good good mood for some weird reason. I think it was some Viking part of me kicked in where it was like, "Oh, [ __ ] it." You know, it's like, "Oh, we're going to hell anyway. I'm going to Valhalla. I'm just going to [ __ ] enjoy it. >> Go out in a blast of blast of glory here." >> Uh, so I wasn't feeling that depressed. Um, and the doctor in London, uh, he was the one who told me, you know, that, you know, I said, well, I had a man-to-man talk to him when, not with Emma, but he said, yeah, you probably have about 3 years left. But I thought he probably meant less because he didn't want to tell me the truth. Uh, so I it was tough. I mean I I was working on my own will changing that around and this is the end of this is the end of 2019 2020 uh 2021 actually. So, uh, yeah, and it started to kind of dawn upon me that maybe this is the end, but you know, somebody had told me there's another doctor at UCLA who was really good. Uh, you should why don't you get a second opinion? So, I was after I come home from came back from the set, I'd be, you know, I had to gather all my stuff together, all my charts and and send it to this woman. And, uh, I thought, well, this is not going to lead to anything, but I'll do it anyway. Well, you know, I just had a feeling I got to I got to explore all options a little bit like with Stallone and Rocky 4, like, okay, well, you know, this guy says it's over, but what about let me try this person. So, I did that. And um >> and that's when we came back to America and went to see her at UCLA, she, you know, immediately said, "There is something that isn't isn't right here. It's uh doesn't make sense. We looked at your biopsy and it it's it's a very very unusual type of uh uh type of kidney cancer that this this medication you've been getting had has no effect on this. But there's another five medications you can take that works against this. So yeah, >> she was able to identify a genetic marker that made you a candidate for a very targeted treatment. >> Yes. uh that ultimately proved to be unbelievably effective >> uh and you know completely changes the entire thing. I mean, you go from like, well, this is my eminent demise to, you know, suddenly like a completely different picture of what your future could look like. And this doctor, like this is another synchronicity kind of thing. Like her dad's a huge fan of yours. Her husband, I think, is worked out at the same gym as you and you know, like >> you fall into the lap of absolutely the right person who's going to help you out here. And yeah, >> you're given this, you know, second chance at life. I know. >> And the dizzying kind of like whiplash effect of like it's going to be this way to now it's this way. Like what was that like? >> Well, you know, hearing you talk about it, it's it's uh it's just um amazing what happened and uh I I still can't really believe it. You know, I can't believe that I was that close to dying. And I can't believe that this other person could just turn it around and in like uh four four weeks because I started taking their other drug and within four weeks everything was shrinking and I was on another movie actually. I was directing another picture cuz I didn't want I wanted to keep working you know. >> Yeah. Cuz god forbid you sit still for a minute. Yes. >> Dolph can't. So uh yeah I mean look I um I guess somehow I felt that yeah I may not have been you know as successful as Arnold or Sly but I've always try to be nice to people and be a good person and maybe it came back to me you know from the universe and that's why I was given the second chance. >> Yeah. >> And uh you know >> you're given this gift. >> Yeah. Uh and now you know in the in the aftermath of that with the benefit of time and perspective like what have you extracted from that experience and and a lifetime of all of these you know unbelievable experiences that you've had a very unique life. >> Has it taught you about what's important and what's meaningful in life? Yeah. Well, it's not an easy question to answer because there's so many parts to it. You know, all the people you love, all the how quickly the whole thing goes, um, you know, the good you know, the good energy coming back to you, all these, uh, circumstances in my case. But I think that I um well I think it there is some meaning there's some meaning with our lives, you know. I think everybody there's a there's a reason we're here and I think my reason had to do with sharing experiences with other people. And I think that's why I switched from engineering to this. why I'm sitting here with you instead of shaking a test tube somewhere. Maybe that is some of the meaning. Uh on one level, there's that connection to everybody else on this planet, all the other people because we're all in this in the same it's the same journey like how we started the >> mono myth. We're all going through it. Whether you're American or Russian or Iranian or, you know, Ukrainian, it doesn't matter, right? and and I've always felt the kinship to everybody. I don't feel I'm I'm not a political person. I feel everybody has a value and and I I can connect to everybody and I think my life has been some kind of message I guess like there's that you know it Gandhi who said you know when they said give us a message and he said my life is my message >> you know um I read this other quote uh by I think it was by Luis Haye who said um who I listen to her I listen to her um um affirmations almost every night, you know. And she said one thing she has when she says, "I am the treasure I've been seeking." That's the nugget. Like that's the centerpiece in this whole healing journey of you returning home because I think that the >> Yeah. >> the impact of the trauma that you suffered powered you through this astonishing life. Yeah. >> But so much of it was driven by pain, unresolved pain. >> Yeah. >> At the core of which is this sense of not maybe self-loathing but like a refusal to accept yourself as you are >> to love yourself >> and in the aftermath of the cancer journey and all the therapy that you've done and you know Louise Haye plays a large role in this. Um it's it's really about coming to this place where you can accept yourself and and have self-love and compassion for yourself. You talk about looking into the mirror and rehearsing a mantra to yourself. >> Yeah. Yeah. When you look in the mirror like it you say I love you, you know, you look yourself in the eye. I mean that's hard for most people to do. >> Yeah. and mean it. Because when you first start, you don't mean it. And you realize, why don't I mean it? Because is this something I did or is this somebody told me that a long time ago? >> Especially if you're the ultimate alpha male. >> Yeah. >> You know, >> Yeah. then it's even more difficult. >> Yeah. Like this is beta behavior. >> You know what I mean? From a cultural perspective. >> Yeah. We're in this moment right now where there's a lot of young men who are suffering and they're looking for meaning. >> Uh this loneliness epidemic >> uh a lack of opportunity. Uh and we have a digital social media landscape. >> Yeah. >> Uh that's populated by >> people who are influencing this generation of young men who are looking for guidance, looking for father figures and and mentors. >> Yeah. and you being, you know, kind of like the ultimate gigachad who could outmog anyone. Uh, you know, what is your what is your message to that young man who is suffering and prone to, you know, the influence of somebody who might not be giving them the best guidance. Well, you have to well, what we were talking about is you have to love yourself first before you can love others. And that's that's what's hard in life. And it takes a long it's it's easier said than done, you know, because if you don't love yourself, then strength doesn't mean anything. And strength can be used for negative purposes. And it is a lot in the world because you can take these young men and you can feed them some kind of um false messaging and use their aggressiveness to to negative purpose. And it's done every day. We just turn on the TV, you see it. But I think I think it's up to each individual to try to find themselves and find the treasure in themselves, you know, because then maybe you're not so susceptible to that language, to that indoctrination. You do things for yourself, you know, because what you believe in, not what people tell you to believe in. You know, >> a lot of that misguided messaging uh is around the material aspects of of success, you know, the right car. >> Yeah. >> The right suit, the right watch, the right haircut, um the right physique, the right job and salary. Uh and you're somebody who has lived all of those lives. You've lived them on screen, but you've lived them in real life. You've had extreme fame. You've had more external validation than almost, you know, like 0.0001% of people who've ever lived. You've had money. You've lost money. You've had, you know, the most beautiful women in the world on your arm. Like all of these things that like the Andrew Tates of the world are telling you like if you have this, you'll be happy and and this is how the world will will perceive you. M >> and you've come out the other side having won lost suffered experienced you know on wonder survived cancer parented children been married gotten divorced all of it like the full spectrum of life right >> and so what can you report back about these ambitions that you know a a young person might have around the material possession or celebrity or fame or status or movie stardom or you know the appearance of your partner all of those things that seem to capture quite a bit of mind share in terms of where we should be placing our ambitions. >> Well, you know, I don't know if I'm the person >> not to put you in a position [laughter] of being a spokesperson, but I'm talking about >> you and your life and speaking from your own direct experience. Well, I think all of those things are fine. You know, ambition is fine. Material things are okay. I mean, it's interesting to experience things in life. We only here once as far as I know and far as we know. You know, it's nice to drive a cool car. It's nice to have a Ferrari or a good suit or beautiful woman or or a family. I mean, all those things are good. I mean, I think >> it it's okay to achieve those things. It's uh it's more about not losing yourself. I mean I think it is um I think one also has to remember that you know you know the Russian um author Solenitchent you know he said um Nobel Prize winner he said that the line between good and evil cuts through the heart of every man. So we have to remember that and it's we're we have both the good and the evil. He put it very bluntly but you know we have I think it's it's it's a bit of a struggle within all the time all of us it's it's a fight to try to be to do the right thing you know it's put it simple but I think if you feel you do the right thing if you really believe that you're doing the right thing then you're always going to be okay you're always going to feel good about yourself and I think that's how I want to be remembered [clears throat] >> people you Well, the Vikings said that um cattle, you know, cattle die, kinsmen die, you yourself shall one shall die. But I know one thing that never dies is the judgment over the dead man. How do people speak about you when you're gone? And I think that's where it's at on the as a man on the deep level. That's where I think we all want to be. And that's the kind of I think if we kind of remember that and I think you're you're going to make the right decisions. >> Have you lived your life with integrity? Are you basing your decisions on self arrandisement or the betterment and welfare of other people? >> Uh how generous are you of spirit and heart? >> Um all of these things are what matters. And I think you're correct in saying like the nice car and all the trappings of success are fine, but if you're seeking them as a way of, you know, filling that hole in your spirit, uh it's not going to get >> work. And somebody also said, you know, your job as a man is to be um to be in the red, to give more than you were given, to love more than you you were loved, to protect more people than you were protected, like to >> to have a positive net, you know, then it's okay. And I think it was wasn't for then your life meant something you know and I think it's in there somewhere that you know it comes down to uh and I don't make all the right decisions all the time but I think on the whole I would say looking back at my life I could I could kind of stand behind that. I would say that I feel like I' I've fulfilled those those things. >> Still a warrior but a peaceful warrior. >> Yes. the the older, wiser warrior, the the guy who comes back from the battles and can maybe teach the young warrior or something. >> Yeah. The [laughter] uh the uh the man who can uh return like uh uh like Russell Crowe at the end of Gladiator Home. >> Oh yeah. >> Uh having vanquished his enemies, but uh also can look in the mirror and say, >> "Dolph, I really really love you." >> Yeah. and not feel like that's cringey. >> Yeah. >> Like to mean it. >> Yeah. To mean it. >> Yeah. And to do it as a practice of self- nurturing and honoring like you mentioned like being in the red, like always giving more than you're seeking to receive, but doing it with a uh with a bright spirit. Not because you feel like your worth or your deservedness is contingent upon other people seeing you doing those things, >> but out of like a a self-honoring practice. Like I deserve to um you know, love the people uh that I love to the best of my ability. And the way that I do that is by showing up for them. Not not running away in escape behaviors or or freezing, you know, your freeze response. >> Yeah. And there's also the other side of it which now when I listen to you it's that um you're learning about yourself till the day day you die. You know I feel like I want to learn stuff. [snorts] I mean it's a process. >> The work is never done. >> No the work is never done. Somebody said I'm an I'm a river. I'm learning how to cross and you you're navigating that river and it's like you know the currents going this way. you have to steer the boat that way and then it goes that way and then you keep going and I think that's the exciting part of it. Um it never it never stops. >> Life will continue to be uncertain. There is pain in your future. >> Yes. >> Uh and the work is never done. >> No. >> But along the way uh you've made peace with your past, with your father and your mother and your upbringing. >> Yes. >> And that has allowed you to make peace with yourself and to love yourself. And the reason to love yourself is so that you can give more of yourself to the things that you care about and the people that matter in your life. Yes. >> Is that a fair >> like this is the you know this is >> this is Odysius finally arriving on the shores of of of Ithaca after his very long journey. >> You're right. And some people Jesus Christ may have reached that when he was 30. Some people reach it when they're 65. You know, >> it's a journey >> when you reach when you get to that state. >> Yeah. And right now healthwise, I mean, you look good. You feel good. >> Yeah, I feel good. Yeah, >> I feel good. I feel like uh the old, you know, the old warrior is kind of coming back and uh >> took me about two years to get back in shape, but I feel pretty good now. Every every week I'm I'm actually getting stronger again. So I I'm sort of back to where I was even before this started because when I was doing the steroids and stuff after 2015, I wasn't feeling 100%. I was never really feeling good because it wasn't natural. So I would say it goes back like more than 10 years. I feel better now than I did. Probably the same I felt like 20 years ago or something. >> I think it's a really exciting time for you. you know, you you have so much earned wisdom from all of these experiences and and >> you're kind of back. You got this book uh coming out. You've got the documentary about a month later. I the book comes out September 22nd, I think. And then the the documentary comes out in October. >> Yeah. >> This documentary, I mean, this is this is a journey unto itself. like that was something that began a long time ago prior to all the cancer and all that and then you know all kinds of ups and downs but um you know is really a firsthand account you know shot on iPhones but you know your wife and you a lot of that aspect of it that now you know tells like this more full story and I think these two pieces together um and just you know how how kind of like comfortable you are in your own skin I mean that really comes comes across. >> Yeah. >> Uh I think this is going to be a really golden, you know, era for you. I'm excited to see what comes of all of this and and really for >> wider audiences to really know who you are, you know, like your life is really you've lived such a remarkable life and when you look back on it, like there must be gratitude and and awe and wonder. But maybe we can end with uh you know what you would say to young Hans you know who's getting you know kind of knocked about by his dad this little kid like what is the message you want to give to him now? >> Uh I would say don't worry it's going to be fine. Come here. I'll give you a hug. Give him a hug. >> Yeah. Because you can be you can be your your own parent. Yeah. >> You know to that inner child. >> Yeah. >> Give him some warmth and compassion and you know he still has to suffer through everything but at least he would have feel like oh oh this this big guy really loves me and cares about me you know. Uh so that would have been nice. Um but I do that almost every day when I do my affirmations you know. I I try to uh I try to um remind myself of those things. >> That's beautiful, man. >> Thanks. >> Uh it was a real honor to have you here today. You know, it really was. I I I feel a kinship with you. Like you're you're an old soul, you know. You really are an artist and >> Yeah, >> that was very meaningful to me. I really appreciate the openness and the cander that you brought to this experience. >> Thank you. Thank you. It was a great interview. Very unusual and special. And uh I I understand that you we share a few things in our past from what I've what you've told me. I hope people uh will uh you know maybe walk away with some maybe some nuggets that they can uh apply in their own lives. You know, >> I uh I'm not worried about that at all. I think they got more more than they bargain for. And there's even more uh in your book fights worth fighting available everywhere September 22nd. Um, and the documentary October >> 9th I and also the book. You can pre-order it on Amazon. >> Please pre-order it now. We'll have links up in the show notes and in the description um below the YouTube video >> and uh I wish you well, man. Best of luck. I think this is a >> Okay, >> this is all going to be a big success for you, man. >> Thank you. Yeah. >> Pleasure. Hope we'll do it again. >> Yeah, I'd love to. Anytime. >> Yeah. Thanks.