Digitaler Salon: Demokratie afk?

Welcome, good evening here at Hiig Live. Welcome to the stream on Alex TV and also welcome in, I don't know, two or five years from now, when you 're out archaeologically minded and watch this video again and want to know what they actually wanted to know back then about the topics Democracy meets Gaming Democracy Away from Keyboard. That's the title of the round, and that's exactly what we want to ask about. What role does democracy, politics in general, or extremism play in gaming? Before we begin, let me ask you all here in the room: who among you regularly plays online games? Let 's say at least once a week. Please raise your hand. Okay, half a hand and another half. Together they make a whole. Does anyone here play daily? Okay, the cameraman identifies himself . Three panelists. Does anyone here never play? I'd be there, no joke. Um, that might explain the depth of my questions. Let's see. Uh, as always, the audience is invited to ask questions. Um, and I bet a few questions will pop up for you within the next hour at the latest. So, according to the figures I found, over 43% of Germans regularly play on a PC, console, or some other device. And we know, of course, that millions of people across Germany and in other countries regularly frequent gaming rooms. But when I think about what I read and perceive in mainstream media, I have to say that the topic isn't particularly prominent there. In any case, far less than other sectors and areas of the cultural industry. Unless we learn that the far-right, anti-Semitic attacker from Halle streamed his attack and murders on Twitch, or that I am offered on forums the opportunity to implement these acts or this sequence of events in games I play. This will of course also be a topic of media coverage. We want to discuss this and much more with knowledgeable guests, whom I will introduce to you. Franzi is sitting next to me. She calls herself Smash Lunetic as a content creator and she plays, chats and streams on Twitch, enjoys playing Counterstrike, was also part of several Counterstrike teams, organizes events and maintains the community. And I just checked on Twitch today: 58,000 followers, 5811 when I checked. Welcome. Thank you very much. Hello everyone. Hello and McTrinz is here. He is responsible for the Good Gaming Support project at the Amadeu Antonio Foundation. So, look at games and chats of the communities, and advise on the topic of right-wing extremism in games and also on the platforms. Welcome. It's great that you're here . Good Morning. Hello. Nandita Weghaupt is with us. She has been the managing director of the industry foundation for digital games culture, i.e., the foundation of the German games industry, for almost two years. Previously, she was responsible for the educational work of the Foundation of German Business, and I know you are now working in a similar field. Welcome. Thank you very much. Have you played Nandita today? Just a tiny bit, but everyone always thinks I sit in front of the computer all day playing games. That's not quite what my job is. And you can ask yourself, is Feldrecher, what game are you playing? I'm currently playing Tiny Bookshop. This is a really great game where you can play as a librarian. Mhm. And this game is definitely a surprising success. I actually read about that, and um, you heard there's an "Oh" from the other two panelists at Tiny Bookshop. Um, actually, but if we look at the industry again, uh, the German game producers or studios, they're booming in the German context, you could say, currently, but internationally we're still talking about a niche, right? Yes, Germany is at the forefront when it comes to games. Germans love to play games. Um, but in the sense that the German industry is exciting. Um, there's a lot going on, especially in the indie scene, and of course there are some very big international games that are also very popular in Germany. I would say the German industry is on the rise. Mhm. OK. So far I do n't see much DS. Everything you said received praise. What's your favorite game right now, Franzi? Uh, Counter-Strike is still popular again, and PUBG is also currently popular again, so mainly shooters. Yes, okay. Then explain to me, what's the joke about both? And since you said yes, Kluse will be back in Counter-Strike. Yes . Well, I used to play Counter-Strike in a team, and so at some point I just decided to reorient myself a bit , to take a little break . It must also be said that, uh, Counter-Strike is a game that has n't developed very well, unfortunately. That's why, um, there was a time when I played less. The main point, however, is to play with friends, have a good time, and have lots of fun. Today I also streamed PUBG, and just playing with the three of them and having a good time is simply the most fun part. Um, I know it of course, but try explaining to everyone else what PUBG is. Uh, PUBG stands for Player Unknown Battlegrounds and it's an extraction shooter. That means, um, you play alone or in groups of four; in our case, it was four of us today against 100 other people, and everyone lands on an island, and in the end, there is only one team that gets out alive. That means you have to eliminate all other opposing teams, and they have to eliminate each other too. Mhm. And do you remember which game once captivated you so much that you thought, "That's it, and maybe I'll make a job out of this?" Wow, I think the first game that really grabbed me was Benjo-Kazui on the Nintendo 64. That was one of my... We speak in the year of our Lord. Oh God, when was that? I think I was there in 2002 or something, maybe. OK. Yes, it's been a while. I was still very small then. Um, and I think I said to myself that I would like to make a job out of it. Wow, that just happened over time. I actually think it was through Let's Plays that I watched, I think even through Minecraft, through Gronk Minecraft Let's Plays, I always thought it was great. He just plays his power, has such a good time for himself, talks to himself, and so many people are listening . It's like a... well, you might know it today as a podcast, basically. Um, and I absolutely loved watching it myself and really enjoyed talking to myself in the video game, or rather to an imaginary person, it was just great. What's your favorite game right now? Phew, my favorite game. I actually started playing Lego Batman today, the new Lego Batman game, but it's more of a cozy game to relax a bit. I also really enjoy playing League of Legends with my girlfriends, a game that has been out since 2009 and which I still occasionally play. Similar to Franzi's, it also has a very strong social component, like just playing games with girlfriends for a couple of hours in the evening, chatting a bit, not always focusing on the game itself , but also on the interaction with people. I think that's great. Uh, but I also really enjoy playing another game called Hand Showdown, I don't know, it might be something for you too, Franzi. Uh, also an extraction shooter, similar gameplay principle. You have to come from a map and fight against opponents, but social interaction is also very important there . For me, games are really a medium where I can get to know new narratives or really delve into stories. Sometimes, though, it's also something to switch off a bit, like this Lego game I played for a short hour today, or it has a very strong social component when I'm playing on the PC. Mhm. If you now take off your personal glasses and put on your professional ones, which games or forums have recently stood out to you in a particularly positive or negative way? I often look at the toxic depths of the gaming world. So I always look at how the extreme right-wing groups, but also the toxic Bubbets, try to instrumentalize gaming communities . Let me try to make it clear that, hey, this is only a minority and there are many great aspects to gaming. But when I look at the downsides, it's just a lot of Steam. Steam is a PC gaming platform where you can buy and rate games, but also create your own modifications, have its own subreddit, and where there are also relatively many far-right profiles on the platform that network and exchange their ideology. There were several attackers who were on the platform and also networked on the platform. Nevertheless, this is only a small part, but one that we must also take into account. This is the area where things get into the negative aspects of gaming. I also spend a lot of time on Twitch in the positive areas. Watch how content creators talk about democracy. Look at how communities, uh, demos are organizing in Gate Wars 2 , holding Pride parades , taking to the streets against the invasion of Ukraine. Fortunately, there are also many positive aspects that we mustn't forget, and I always try to include them in my happiness . I think you've already opened up two poles, or rather the three of you have opened up the two poles of our topic. That 's why I'm wondering if it even makes sense to ask you, as a social scientist (which you are by training), such a general question : how social is gaming? Does this question even make sense, or only if you first define precisely – are we talking about the platform, the forum, that game, that modification – or can you just say it in a general rule of thumb? So, of course, we actually need to start with the definition of "social" to clarify this. But let's not do that now. I would say that video games, or video game platforms, are fundamentally a very social medium . So whether it's an online game where I interact with my community, where I'm in my World of Work guild, or in my Counter-Strike clan, or maybe in my Twitch chat or on my Discord server. There are many opportunities to interact socially in or around gaming worlds . At the same time, there is of course also the situation where you might be sitting alone in front of the console and playing alone, and that is perfectly fine too. Of course, there are also people who say, "I play my Playstation and my Switch games, and that's perfectly fine with me." Experience my stories there; it doesn't have to have a social aspect, but it can . I know plenty of quasi-video game book clubs where people get together and say: "Hey, today we're going to play The Last of Us Part 2 and look at how certain narratives are handled. Or we'll look at the story of Dishonored or Horizon Forbidden West." Sorry, I'm throwing around a lot of video titles right now. Well, I don't even know where all I'm going to have to check now, sorry. Exactly, these are simply a wide variety of games, and I think it's exciting to see that there are many discussions about these games in many places , even if they aren't always multiplayer games. So, to shorten your question a bit, I would say that video games are a totally social medium, not just the games themselves, but everything surrounding them. Mhm. And Dieter, what does your answer look like when you ask how social games are? I believe what makes games special is that they are an interactive medium. That is to say, compared to books or films, they are simply a medium where you slip into roles, interact with others, interact either with the story or with other players. And that's what makes it so exciting for us, for example, when we as a foundation work with games on educational topics, democracy topics, or topics related to the culture of remembrance, because games have very special characteristics, including the fact that you slip into roles, take on perspectives, can better understand stories, and experience a narrative yourself, and also take a stance or try out different stances and have to make decisions, and that's different from, for example, reading a book or watching a film, and that really has a lot of potential for working with games. Mhm. Franzi, now, um, the gamer is... Yes, if I had to illustrate him for a short segment on television, he would of course be male and would of course wear a hoodie and would not give the impression of being such a terribly sociable person, but would rather be sitting in a semi-gloomy little room. Does that match your experience? Uh, I know that studies might need to be inserted in the meantime, but I do n't know if they come to other conclusions. I don't believe it anymore. So, I think that's something that definitely was a thing 20, maybe even 30 years ago. Back then, being a gamer was really still a bit of a, well, let's say, fringe group, and someone who would often lock themselves in their basement and play a bit of games on their old C64 or something. Um, I think it's become very diverse by now, and there are so many different characters, very open, colorful people too. I believe that this is no longer the case . No. Mhm. Nevertheless, one can of course say that half of humanity or the good half of humanity is also female, which does not lead to the other half of humanity saying, ah, you are equal. Um, how do you feel when you're out and about as a content creator and you say, "Hello, here I am." This is how it looks. It depends on where you are. I have the feeling that women are more accepted these days , but especially in the online world, this hasn't reached everyone yet . So, depending on what kind of game you play and where you happen to be, unfortunately there is still this image of the woman in the kitchen, and then you unfortunately often have to listen to comments online like " a girl in the lobby". Um, it's gotten better, definitely. So, especially in public spaces, I'm not afraid to be at Gamescom, I'm not afraid to be at any other convention. And, um, on the contrary, you are even greeted with joy. People are generally happy that things are becoming more mixed up, both individually and among themselves. And, um, just recently, for example, a League of Legends team, which is a team of transgender women, um, sent a competition, which they are very proud of, which I think is great, and, um, it's more in the online world that this still somewhat addresses, um, yes, how do you say, skepticism or blinding of skepticism. Yes, it's getting better. It 's still there to some extent, but mainly online. Do you both, or either of you, have any figures related to this question? What does the gender distribution look like? So, the figures are 48% of the people who play are female. Um, and we have another interesting study I'd like to add regarding the term "gamer." The Battlesmann Foundation conducted a study last year and found that not everyone who plays a lot of games identifies with the term " gamer." Rather, it 's a question of whether or not someone likes the term and whether it fits into their life. And there is just as large a group who play a lot and in this survey categorized themselves as frequent players rather than as gamers. Um, and in this survey, over 60% of Germans play games, and in younger target groups, it's even more. That's 80-90% depending on age. And, um, with the term "gamer," it's actually the case that more male people identify with the term. But I think that's more due to the term itself than to the topic of computer games . So, certain associations or attributions are already included. That's something I'd like to build on . For many people I know, the term "gamer" isn't even used because they have this image of it, or because this image is frequently conveyed to them. that there is such a homogeneous image of gamers, just as people often talk about the gamer scene, which doesn't actually exist in that form. These are incredibly diverse communities of very different people. Um, I'd like to add something to Franzi's point. I also believe that she has done a great deal there, a great deal of positive work. Um, but it must also be said that a very large proportion of female players still talk about not daring to speak up in voice chat or even to use a feminine-sounding name, because 76% of all female players say: "Yes, I have experienced discrimination because of my gender, and um, I think things are developing in a positive direction. But we must n't forget that sexism is still a huge issue in gaming, in gaming communities." This is also shown in the wonderful study by the Battlesmann Foundation. Sexism is simply one of the main forms of discrimination that we still have to observe. And perhaps we also have something like the lowest common denominator of other currents that we will discuss later . Now please explain Franzi to absolute beginners like me. The games themselves exist. Okay, I get it . Then there are the platforms that are frequently used. Twitch, Discord, Steam, we've already heard of them, Roblox. What's happening there? That's very platform-dependent, I would say. So, on Twitch, the games are streamed. This is live, a livestream. This means people can watch a game live and comment on it live. You have an active exchange in real time with the community, with the chat. They are talking about the game. You can also say that Twitch is no longer purely a gaming platform. Nowadays, you can also do Just Chatting, for example, cooking streams are very common. IRL is essentially the category in real life where people go out into the world with their chat, and that's exactly where they talk to people in real time. Then there's YouTube, for example, where you mainly upload videos. But YouTube is n't purely about gaming, is it? You can watch gaming there, but there's also a lot of other stuff. Well, as my colleague already explained, Steam is a gaming platform. Um, I mainly use it for playing games and to text my buddies or girlfriends, hey, do we fancy a round or something? Um, but unfortunately it's also sometimes used in a negative way, namely as a forum. Uh, it's similar to Reddit or Twitter, for example . Then people exchange ideas , which can also be positive. For example, there is always a comment section on the shop pages of the respective players . If you're unsure whether you like the game, whether you like it, or how it's received, you can always read what people have written, the reviews – are they positive or negative? Um, and then, as I said, there are also pages and groups that you can create, um, where you can meet up. That can be positive, but unfortunately also negative. This definitely needs better moderation. And um, otherwise, there's the social media platform, where people mainly exchange information in written form. So there is already a strong focus on games, as I understand it. But otherwise, as on any platform, in principle anything can become a topic, anything can be negotiated. The keyword " moderation" – let's tie that in our ears and take it with us. Where and how do you encounter political content when you're out and about, in a professional capacity, so to speak? I believe I'm currently mainly engaged in discussions with the community on Twitch. Well, politics is more important now than ever before, I would say, and we're currently talking about it openly, and it happens quite often that when you've heard something in the news or have dealt with something new, you talk about it, and in gaming or in the games themselves, it's actually rare for me right now, but maybe that's just because of the games I'm currently playing. Um, but yes, mainly through interaction on Twitch, I would say. Mhm. What would you say then, Dieter? Where do I encounter hostility towards democracy and extremism in the context of games, if we make it explicit? Is that within the games themselves? Is that mentioned in the written or verbal chats? Is that in the modifications, in the player names, I don't know, anything is possible in principle. Exactly . So, I think we first need to distinguish between them, right? What is political and what is perhaps also socio-political? Games are a very broad medium, like books or films, encompassing the entire spectrum from trash to Arthurian legend, from tiny creations made by one person to huge projects with teams of 300-700 people constantly working on the game. So, basically, the background information on how games are created. And, um, if you ask about the games themselves, the answer is just as broad. But generally speaking, a game is an entertainment medium where, of course, entertainment and the fun of the game are absolutely paramount. It is also a very international medium. This means that games are developed in such a way that they are also fun for an international audience and, um, also profitable, because it is a cultural asset and it is also an area of ​​the cultural economy, so that they can refinance themselves, because it is quite expensive to build a game. So. And, um, where do we encounter politics, democracy? I believe gaming and games are simply a reflection of society. What we currently find in society also happens in the digital space, happens in gaming communities, across the entire spectrum, and games are of course also a reflection of their time and tell us something about the region where they are developed, where they originate. Well, that's one way to imagine it, and a general answer ca n't be given because the medium is simply far too large and wide . Mhm. Then let me ask it another way. You 've basically just described a pre-political space to me, haven't you? There's a big theme, namely the games themselves, the enjoyment, the entertainment, and I know that brings together many people who at least share this interest in the specific game. If I wanted to place political messages there , where would they be best placed? Of course , there are political games, especially in the indie scene. The Darkest Files just won the German Computer Game Award . This is truly, um, a small sensation or a big sensation in the industry and also for everyone who likes games . This is a game with a very, very serious background . It takes place in the 1950s. Um, you play a public prosecutor on Fritz Bauer's team. Fritz Bauer, the public prosecutor who prepared the Auschwitz trials, and they research and play out cases that happened during the Nazi era and they solve them. And this game was nominated for various categories, also won the Series Games award, and is, so to speak, also about a serious cultural and democratic message, and it also won the category of best German game , which, I believe, is really a statement of our time, right? And, um, which shows how political games can also be great games, because you only win this category if there's also, I wouldn't call it fun, but a certain entertainment factor in it, so that the jury also likes the game itself. And so you see both, they come together and, um, we'll certainly get to the topic of communities later, that's another very important area. I'd like to ask you, since we now know and see the impact of the AfD emerging earlier than other parties, how social media works, right? For example, TikTok allows me to find new target groups, and I also find future or current voters there. Does this also apply to online games? So you could say, yes, they were perhaps a little ahead of others in that respect. No, honestly not. Uh, you can tell there are attempts being made. For example, in the last federal election campaign, there was a game by the former youth organization of the Young Alternative. I won't mention the title now, but it was a very simple one. Uh, I'm sliding three symbols next to each other in a game where then escape was shown and enemy propaganda was displayed, and so on. It's a game that, to be honest, was a huge flop, and that's the case with many far-right games. Many far-right games flop. There are few examples where one can say that Irwi is a game that has been well received in gaming communities. It's noticeable that there are always attempts to allow even quite extreme parties to gain a foothold in gaming. We've seen this in Austria too, where, for example, there was a game that displayed Islamophobic propaganda. But when we look at right-wing extremism in gaming , we actually look more at what happens in the communities, more at what happens in modifications . You've already mentioned that word a few times. Perhaps just a brief explanation. Modifications are essentially variations of existing games. That means I can build a modification, just like for my favorite games . It can be kind of cool that I suddenly have a different helmet on in one of my favorite games, Skyrim . But that could also mean that I suddenly have swastikas everywhere in another game, or that a swastika car drives around me in Need for Speed, or that you can suddenly play with weapons that have them, or something like that. That means this is the area where we are particularly sensitive right now, because we also see that modifications are being developed for many established games that only become problematic upon closer inspection. This is an anti-diversity modification, where eternal progressive developments, including democratic developments, are reversed. For example, there are games like Bidos Gate 3, where you have such a super diverse character pool, then there are modifications that take that back, or there are other games that, um, incorporate queer people into their story. There are modifications that reverse that. And that's something we find particularly alarming, that this is such a strong trend, these anti-diversity games and modifications. And to even realize that, I have to pay for these modifications. So, is this a paid service? Mostly not. Most of the time you can subscribe to them for virtually free or download them from the Steam Workshop. There are also external websites where you can download them. um, where there is a huge abundance of cow modifications, but always this small, shadowy area of ​​disgusting modifications that also come out. That means the people who program these things assume there's a high demand for them, or at least some demand – it does n't have to be huge, but it's usually done for their own clientele. So, even far-right games are created with the aim of appealing to people again, but this rarely succeeds. This usually happens in the pier group of extreme right-wing extremists, where, for example, a game is played. Can you assess whether such modifications, like hanging swastika flags or something in the streetscape of my game, stem from a deeply held right-wing extremist belief, or whether I think, um, I don't know, I'm 15, my parents will definitely hate it, so great. I would say both, actually. So I think there are people who really do that because they want to, because they stand by it and because that's really how they see it. But there are certainly some who do it just because it would trigger other people, or no, just for fun. So, I think both sides will be represented. Very, very safe. Mhm. Will this be addressed in any way ? So, uh, the community is discussing this modification, or maybe even directly contacting me if they see, uh, Katja has some strange decorations now. I believe that on Steam, for example, there are these workshop pages. I believe that's already being discussed, but I haven't personally looked into it that much yet. We talked about this once, I don't know, maybe you can say something about it. This also varies greatly depending on the platform. There are also platforms like Roblox, which is a platform primarily used by kids. The main group is 9 to 12 years old, where we've already found some extremely nasty things , like reenacted assassinations and the like, or, oh, I do n't even want to elaborate, there's really a lot of crap there, and we started talking to the platform and reporting things to see how the platform reacted. And with Roblox, as much as you can criticize the platform, you have to say they reacted relatively strongly and took down a lot of that stuff. Many have gone online from time to time, but at least they're trying. In other places, Steam is another negative example; very little happens. We've already found quite a lot and reported quite a lot of it. That's when we realize that the platform is only partially up to date. And to answer your question about how the communities are reacting, many communities don't even notice. Far- right modifications are not so widely established in established or larger gaming communities that this needs to be such a big issue . Sometimes you might stumble across something. Um, and what I've noticed is that many gamers say, "Oh, what a load of rubbish," but then they just look the other way . So, to use the reporting function and perhaps report things to the platform or to external reporting agencies like the Respect reporting agency. Unfortunately, I think this still happens too rarely in gaming communities . I would like to see a more democratic attitude from female players, even if it's just two clicks. Do you have an explanation for what I just explained, that reporting functions are rarely used? Can you explain the reason for this? Oh, I think that's also almost a societal question, because the question is, what kind of community do we want to be in, and in our work we assume that the majority of people in, let's say, analog life, just as in digital life, like to be in a peaceful community, sharing democratic values . And I think, however, that the topic of, um, let's say, our democratic freedom, which we have all been used to for so many decades, seems to us all a bit too self-evident, because we have never been in a position to really stand up for it. And I believe that these small moments of, let's call them, digital civic courage are precisely the kind of moments where we can all take a good look at ourselves, whether in the digital realm or in everyday life. In these small moments, I mean, that's democracy, right? It's not always about party politics or talking about big issues , but about saying something like: "Hey, we show solidarity with each other, we report things, we stand up for each other when something bad happens." And we get feedback that this resonates strongly, and we want to strengthen this. So we've launched a new project called the Community Support Network, where we work with people who moderate gaming communities—community managers and moderators—and empower them to do exactly that: to moderate their communities more peacefully and with goodwill, so that everyday life is good for everyone involved. And I think this really strikes a chord with society as a whole. Is there enough community? Managers? In principle, so you're saying you want to , you've set up this project to strengthen them, but is the base of this professional group broad enough, so to speak ? Absolutely. I mean, of course, if you imagine a games company, you know, they have a game that they want to bring to an audience who will enjoy it. That means there's someone in every games company responsible for community management. That 's absolutely standard. And there are also community managers—you can certainly say more about that—in the whole streaming sector. And then there's the group of people who moderate voluntarily in the digital sphere. These are often people who simply love playing the game, who are active in these communities, and then in their free time think, "Hey, I have this urge to bring a bit of order to things here." I'll do it voluntarily. And that is, as I say coming from a foundation , voluntary work. They probably wouldn't even necessarily describe themselves as volunteers. Many of them. Something totally under-researched, unknown, but basically huge. So, yes, moderation happens everywhere. Mhm. You agree, Franz. Can you elaborate on your nod? Yes, definitely. So, I can mainly talk about Twitch, for example. Uh, there are moderators for individual channels, but Twitch itself, of course, has a large membership, of employees, and I think there are also volunteer moderators among them that you can always ask if you have any problems or want to report someone. Uh, on my Twitch channel, for example, it's the same. I also have moderators, and I would say that they personally take a lot of work off my hands, and they have a lot of work because they not only mediate between me and my community, but also make sure that if I do n't have the time to respond to something , they moderate the chat, see who is expressing themselves and how. Uh, unfortunately, you often have people who come in and say "haha." Writing things like, well, not haha, but yeah, and uh, or other bad things, or attacking other people , other users, other people in the chat. Um, that happens regularly, unfortunately, and uh, I'm always really glad when the mods are there to issue warnings . Yes. And are those the volunteers that Nandita just mentioned, the ones who discovered and embraced this job and thought, "I'd enjoy it," and joined in? Exactly. Exactly. I don't know if there are paid mods in larger communities with bigger streamers. That's quite possible . For me, it's all volunteer work. These are people who have been around for a long time, whom I trust, who have become friends over time, and who simply do it in their free time . Most of them have a regular job on the side, and then when I 'm live in the evening, they're with me in the stream for another four hours. I'm very grateful for that. And they do it according to what guidelines or something? Going with your gut feeling? Well, I think everyone has their own rules. Every streamer has their own limits, so to speak. Of course, the Twitch guidelines also come into play, so generally, insults, racism, anything that crosses the line we should all set for ourselves, definitely . And then, of course, there are probably individual rules for each streamer, and that's exactly what you discuss with the mods. Yes, there are the aforementioned guidelines, and as you explained earlier, reporting works quite well on some platforms, less so on others. Shouldn't that be standardized? Where do you see room for improvement? Well, we were just talking about Twitch moderation, for example, which is a bit different because the respective content creator also sets their own house rules through the guidelines that Franzi just mentioned. And I think it's crucial that guidelines are actually followed. Many content creators do establish guidelines, and I think it's fantastic that you and your moderators work so well together, but in many streams we watch, this only happens sporadically , which is also related to the fact that many moderators simply do n't have enough support. That's why I'm so happy that you're launching this project to further promote these volunteer structures. Looking at the moderation on the major platforms, like Steam and perhaps the broader policies on Twitch, I think it's great when there are guidelines that are enforced , because Steam also has its own guidelines. Steam also says, "We do n't want theoretical content being spread on our platform" or "hate filters." Despite this, we see it everywhere. So, I would be happy if they would at least implement their guidelines, which aren't even that complicated. To implement. Um, there are of course laws against online hate speech, but these have often, or for a long time, excluded gaming platforms . For example, there were two: in 2018, there was the Network Enforcement Act, which applied in Germany . Um, that simply did n't include gaming platforms. It said that gaming platforms are n't social networks, which is pretty ridiculous, because virtually every major gaming platform has many aspects of a classic social network. Now, since 2024, there's a new law at the European level, the Digital Services Act, which also applies to virtually all major established social networks and does apply to gaming platforms, but only to some. It's already applied to Twitch , and it's currently being discussed for Steam, but I'm also noticing that many political decision-makers and legislators have n't fully grasped gaming yet. A lot is happening, a lot of good things are happening, a lot of things are being set in motion, but in many places, people still have n't really understood how a gaming platform actually works and To what extent is social interaction a huge issue there, and unfortunately, in some places, toxic interaction as well? This means laws should be applied more strongly to gaming platforms. At least that's my assessment. So, there are clearly still some gaps. Where do you see a need for further regulation from the legislature? Well, I think a great deal has already been done regarding legislation, and we mustn't forget that German law, with all its facets, also applies in the digital realm. And, I think these are such vast spaces that it's more a question of implementation in some areas . Perhaps we should differentiate further: what has happened? What do the game companies, what are the game developers doing? They naturally have very strict rules because they themselves have a strong interest in having good communities where people can have fun and interact effectively . Of course, these regulations are often implemented much more clearly and strictly than on platforms where, let's say, there is n't an institution... or who is responsible, that's clear. But where I see room for improvement is in this area. Um, it's all still a relatively new field, which is developing very dynamically, and this mutual learning is important. On the one hand, the community works well in some areas, there are rules that are followed. On the other hand, there are people who are trying incredibly hard , but who, let's say, don't yet have much professional support to learn from others. And that's why we have a peer learning approach in this project, where we involve people who have a lot of experience, who come from games companies, who do this professionally, who are involved day in and day out, so to speak, and can then also provide support to volunteers, for example . This mutual learning is, I believe, important, and then also the political level, of course, in the sense that I think it's still generally important to put the spotlight on the topic of games and gaming. So that a focus is created there and people actually look at it and really understand what's going on. The sheer number of people involved and how much time they spend there. You just said they then sit down for another 3 or 4 hours in the evening. What kind of volunteer work involves those kinds of hours? It's enormous. So, it's really easy to grasp the scale of this whole area. I think there's still room for growth and its relevance. Now I'd like to ask you, because it's almost 8 o'clock, if you have any questions. Now would be a great opportunity to ask them. Here's a question, and here's the microphone. You're welcome. Hi. Um, I work on the topic of loneliness, and while it was mentioned in the announcement that gaming doesn't necessarily only affect lonely people—as you also said—it's a very social field, we have studies that show that lonely people tend to have anti-democratic and authoritarian attitudes and less trust in politics and institutions . And now my question is whether you've also noticed this. So, you see, maybe lonely young people then end up in these small groups that might also share far-right content, um, to find a community again. So, do you think that's an issue, what's your take on that? Mick, that definitely happens, but I wouldn't say that loneliness is the only problem. For example, we also notice that many young people report that gaming is a great tool to help out in some way, and that gaming communities compensate for something that is n't working well elsewhere. For example, we saw this during the Corona pandemic, where, um, the majority of gamers said: "Hey, without video games I would have gone stir-crazy, and I can confirm that from my own experience ." Without gaming, it would have been much lonelier, and therefore I believe gaming doesn't necessarily have to promote loneliness, but can actually alleviate loneliness in many ways and can steer people into problematic communities , but also into others. Therefore, I do n't think I can give you a general answer to that, except unfortunately yes, it happens in many other places, but thankfully not in others. So, if we look at radicalization lines in gaming, they are extremely heterogeneous. So, I don't think we can really speak of clear patterns, that this is somehow the scheme we would always see. I think the biggest problem is, unfortunately, that right-wing extremist content is shown on sites like Roblox or Steam because it's... well, how do you say it? I have a speech impediment, I'm sorry about that . Uh, then skip that part and say the next sentence. I would like to help you, but I don't know right now either. Unfortunately, there are more websites and forums like this than people writing: "Guys, we should be more left-wing . We should be more involved." Unfortunately, I think that's one thing. I don't know, I don't have any figures or comparisons, and especially if someone is lonely and then finds a forum and meets people there who I don't know, or give them some kind of space where they can be, I could well imagine that they might be influenced more easily, but I don't know if that's true. I don't know if you might have more figures or something. That was just in my head when we were talking about it, somehow. What we've noticed very strongly lately, at least, is that right-wing extremists are simply trying to repurpose existing topics in some way. So we've seen that Martin, for example, goes into big gaming debates about a medieval role-playing game and tries to place anti-diversity narratives and somehow establish a certain connection with them. However, there are also moments when people are alone on Roblox and are approached by extremists from the far right. That means these cases exist. Um, but as I just said, it's so complex that you ca n't generalize like that. That is, um, what we see very strongly, for example, is a certain form of metapolitics. It's a somewhat complex term, but it simply means that right-wing extremist gaming is also used to place and repeatedly reproduce ideology and symbols, thereby shifting the boundaries of what can be said. And this doesn't necessarily only appeal to new, perhaps even lonely, users, but also to an established right-wing Babel that, in some circles, uses this poorly regulated platform. Mhm. Um, things like swastikas or forbidden symbols, for example, I can actually desensitize myself to them in certain bubbles, in certain fields, because they are completely commonplace there, right, and not at all, uh, so to speak, congruent with, uh, I go out onto the street here. Exactly, although to be fair , this is well regulated in many gaming communities, or there are the negative examples, like Steam, which I simply have to mention again, where we find this kind of thing very quickly. With just a few clicks we find thousands of Hitler profiles and somehow SSO and, uh, NSU assassins inside. Um, but this is a platform that tolerates that. Fortunately, many other gaming platforms do not tolerate this form of explicit depiction. If you say they tolerate this, what options do you have when you find these profiles? First and foremost, we report it directly to the site itself. That's something I also use, but as you already mentioned, Steam's response is rather lukewarm. Exactly . Last time we tested this and simply reported 10 or 104 profiles that were clearly relevant to criminal law, or where we at least clearly saw a certain right-wing extremist ideology . Something actually happened in half of the cases, but not in the other half. But it must be said that at least something has happened with one half. At the same time, there are other ways to report things besides the website . I just mentioned them briefly. The reporting center Respect is a place where one can report such problematic modifications or profiles, as is the state media office that each federal state has. And with our Good Gaming Support project, for example, we also advise players and content creators on how to deal with hate, and one point is always that we say, do n't look away from this crap, report it, and especially if you do it via these external sites, it has an even stronger impact because some reporting centers also work with security authorities, and security authorities are thereby sensitized to the fact that this problem exists. That was n't the case to this extent a few years ago. That means reporting it is the simplest step. Um, but of course it 's also important to show civil courage in games when people are attacked, to take a stand as a streamer, as a game developer. There are so many ways to convey that, through your own game, but also through your stance on social media. But once you see these things, what's really important to me, just like in everyday life in the analog world, is not to look away, but to perceive them and not have that attitude. Oh, it's just a game; what happens in the game stays in the game. Finally, I would actually like to talk about the Series games again. You mentioned The Darkest Files earlier. So, there are of course all sorts of learning games that might open up a historical era to me, or a specific context, or different perspectives on a topic. You said The Darkest Files won an award. How do people who, as you said earlier, enter a game out of interest in good entertainment, see it ? Yes, well, I'm thinking of my conversations with a 14-year-old; as soon as the didactic intention becomes too obvious, I've lost the customer. The same would be said of films or books, of course. There's certainly some truth to that. The question is, where do you want to use them? Many Series games are created for a museum context or a memorial site context, where they are wonderful, and if a school class goes there and finds a game, they are absolutely delighted. They know that this is school now, that it's serious subject matter, and that there's a game involved. They don't automatically expect it to be the same as the game they play at home; they understand the difference quite well. Um, of course it has to be a well- made game, but there are really a lot of those. Um, we at the foundation work with all kinds of different games and do n't assume that only serious games are good for educational contexts; actually, you can use any game , just like you can use a novel , or a movie, in a blockbuster. In educational terms, it then comes down to the didactic framework, that is, how I analyze it, how I prepare it before and after, and with what questions. For example, if I'm dealing with a historical question, do I approach it and can I extract something from it? And, um, serious games are a great vehicle and are well suited to many contexts. Um, but they are by no means the only games that convey, let's say, exciting content for the learning context. Mhm. Gladly, and I would definitely say that Series games are also a lot of fun. So the games we just mentioned are definitely included. One game that I find great in this context is War of Mine. It's essentially an anti-war game where you play a civilian in a war situation, and when the invasion of Ukraine started, many players said, "Of course, I can't fully understand what people in Ukraine are feeling in the metro, but I played it myself and can roughly imagine what the themes are." This means that games can convey many values , even if they don't have "Series Game" prominently displayed. So, one of my favorite games, The Last of Us Part 2, does n't focus on a love relationship , but it's very present in the story, or rather, a trans person appears in the game without it being presented in a heavy-handed way. This means that players can convey so much attitude without always having to do it as a classic Series game . And that's why players can achieve so much, because they can put us in very different moods, convey very different values , without having to be primarily designed for the educational policy context . Mhm. That means it doesn't always have to be tasteable. My social studies teacher or ethics teacher likes that. Uh, what other games like that can you recommend? I also really like The Last of Us. I can definitely recommend it. Um, then one of my personal favorite games, Life is Strange, too. There are many parts and many different parts. So, there's Life is Strange 1 and 2 and Before the Storm, which belong together, and then there are spin- offs that have their own separate stories, but even there, transgender, uh, sex, so bisexuality, lesbian, gay, it's all represented, and as he says, it's not presented as if it's the most important thing, but rather it's simply the most normal world in this game, which I personally find very nice. So I don't think it's bad at all if you say, hey, that's what it's about. And these people are represented there. But it's also nice when you realize that it's simply used quite normally. So, it just happened that way; you might not even expect it when you play the game, but rather let it happen and see it as something completely normal, and that's how you experience it as a player. And I believe this is especially important during youth . Um, I've noticed that in myself too. I watched teen movies relatively early on where that was simply a theme and it wasn't anything special, it was just normal at the time, and accordingly I always accepted it as normal for myself and never found it strange in any way. And I think that's a really important key point, and I think that's also what puts many gamers off in some ways: that often a game or a publisher tries too hard to stand out, which I don't even want to criticize, but that this is then picked apart by certain community groups, that they say, "Yeah, he's annoying," because they've somehow—I think that was also the case with The Witcher—where the female protagonist came along, many people found that very positive, but some mentioned it too positively in the media, so that at some point a group of people said, "Yeah, that's too much for me now," which always means, right? Well, I think if you had just done it a little bit like that, I do n't know how you could have done it better , but I think that's unfortunately sometimes a problem, that it's often wanted too much then somehow. Of course, especially when it comes to casting based on gender, you have to decide: is it a man or is it a woman? Absolutely. Yes, I think that was a bad example too, but I think what's important to me is that it's often nicer when it's integrated into the story in a more natural way, happens almost casually, and is seen as normal, so that the player can perceive it as normal too. And yes, now I'd like to know from you, because time is flying by, if there are any further questions; I don't want to cut you off . Here's one. And was that really the case? I could imagine that. Okay, please. Without wanting to criticize moderation in general, the question for me is, so to speak, if it becomes relevant under criminal law, is that not a problem at all? Sure, then it's legally important and you have to report it. But if it's just about opinion – too right-wing for me, too left-wing for me – then the question is, where is the line between censorship and moderation? And a second question would be, what is ultimately good? You refrain from commenting on gaming communities, lobbies, communities, whatever . Isn't it ultimately just a matter of repression, because the discussion about whether it's right-wing or left-wing radical or not radical is taking place anyway? This will then take place at Signal or elsewhere . You're just suppressing your feelings. Okay, I'll write that down. Perhaps you could pass the microphone on right away, then we can collect some votes. Please. I have just one very practical question regarding moderation. I spend a lot of time on Discord, and there's a lot of automation right from the start . Well, since I've never tried it, I don't think I could post any Nazi symbols or swastikas there . That would simply be filtered out automatically, just like swear words and so on. And I wonder why something like that even slips through the cracks . Why am I even allowed to create a modification of the game that contains swastikas, and why am I even allowed to publish it? And why is n't such garbage automatically filtered out somehow? Thank you both for the questions. You already have the microphone to your lips. So the first question was, how do I distinguish between censorship and moderation? I would say by the letter of the law, but perhaps you have a completely different one. Exactly. As I just mentioned, we primarily reported matters relevant to criminal law. So, if there are any terrorist profiles, if there are swastika profiles that are criminally relevant, then reporting these profiles has nothing to do with censorship if they violate the applicable law. And there is a very clear line to be seen, that regarding the question and your question about filtering, um, it would be so nice if the filters worked everywhere, but they don't on all platforms. So, on Discord it works for some terms, but not for others. So, for example, you have many classic far-right codes that also exist. For example, on our website we have a special overview of far-right codes that are also used in gaming . Unfortunately, not all of them are always filtered out. Lead Speech is also used a lot, meaning that numbers are simply used instead of letters. This also bypasses certain word filters, and this happens especially with modifications on external sites, and not all external sites use constant filtering and instead use a dedicated check of this content. Unfortunately, this means that such content keeps appearing there because automated detection does n't work as effectively as it does on Discord, for example. I have to say, it works quite well in some areas on Discord. Um, then there was also the question – I 'm not sure if I understood it correctly – about repression, or rather, whether certain views simply keep finding their way back in. Perhaps you can still respond to that. Exactly . So, for us it's not about opinions, so to speak, but about good cooperation within the communities, which we stand for and which is based on the free democratic order and is, above all, cooperation within the communities where everyone feels comfortable. So, in society as a whole, there's currently a tendency towards a harsher tone, and that's where we come in. This is n't really political in the strictest sense, but rather a socio-political approach. It's not about preventing discussion, not at all. If the discussion is conducted well, then it's wonderful to have spaces for discussion. It should be open, fair, and respectful, and not degenerate into insults or anything like that. And that's where community management comes in, acting as a moderator . Finally, you've all mentioned several games that sound like something you should definitely try if you haven't already . Now I'd like to ask a broader question: are there other content creators? Are there any other games or digital spaces that you think are really great for entertainment and democratic education? Then we'd just get the semester materials out here. Please get started. We know so many people that we built the entire database for it . The others also want to say something. So, I actually advertise our databases of educational games. You can find them on our website. You can just browse through it and there are lots of great things there. Okay, but if I tell a teenager that these are educational games, okay, then maybe the parents or teachers will be more likely to look. Exactly . It's more for parents and teachers, not for teenagers. What about you? Minecraft. Definitely Minecraft, there are lots of great projects that also convey democratic values , and on another map the Daai Lama tells you about peace and conflict research. Minecraft is like a huge construction kit with so many great projects. I recently watched a project from southern Germany where a city was recreated and different generations came together. I think that was in Augsburg . So, there are lots of great projects in Minecraft. I believe this is the tool that can be used to teach a great deal . And with you? I would definitely agree with that . Uh, if I could name some people from the streaming sector who you might want to check out, for example, Drakon would be someone who makes political content and does it really well, and he also answers questions in the chat, so if you do n't understand something, you do n't have to be afraid to ask. He then explains it again for a, um, and Freiraumreh, who also makes political content and streams on Twitch and often watches things from the party conference, and explains again what that actually means for us, because often things are said to him that one might not understand at all. What does this mean for me as a citizen in this particular case? And she does that very well. Thank you so much to the three of you, Franzi, Mick and Nandita, for the tips and for the discussion beforehand. I hope you now know where you should definitely go next and, um, I have one last question for you: how do you envision our society in the year 2050? And I would give anything to be able to look into the thought bubbles above your heads right now and see whether they look rather cheerful or gloomy. Make it transparent at the end of June, on June 24th. Then it's about keeping the future in mind here in the digital salon . Keyword: Future Imagining. See you then. Nice evening. Thank you. Just put that on him again, right? Just lay it out again carefully.