Did Sherry Engel Lie? | Body Language Analysis

Today we're going to talk about Sherry Engle and this is a fascinating situation. Greg, tell us about the videos we're going to watch. >> This is a fascinating one. Something we've not seen here before and new behavior. So stick around and watch. Sherry Engle's lover Timmy Rogers was convicted of murder in October 2010 of killing her husband Fred and sent 35 years in prison. In court, she gave detailed testimony that Rogers used threats and intimidation to cos her into helping him kill her husband. Let's see what we think. >> Why is it that you asked that we would come back? Has something changed or something else that you want to say? >> Tell you tell you what happened. >> Okay. >> Tell you the truth, the whole truth. Nothing but the truth. >> Okay. That's all we want. >> I don't have the exact dates or times and everything. Uh but approximately this is May, March. Tim kept pushing me to leave my husband and everything. I wouldn't and I didn't want to leave my husband. I loved my husband. And he he thought it was awful because of the way that my husband treated me being the European style person he was being Dutch. Since October of last year, he had worked at home and I would take his breakfast up to him and serve him breakfast, coffee, go get the dishes, bring them down, take his lunch up to him. Timmy thought this was awful that I done this for him. And I kept telling him it wasn't bad. It was a wife's duty. And he said, "I can't handle the way that he treats you. He treats you like his slave. I don't know. I didn't feel like he treated me like a slave. So he kept on and on and and I kept sort of pushing him away. Kept pushing him away and trying to see him less and talk to him less and and telling him, you know, it's not the right thing to do. I wasn't raised like that. I know he wasn't raised like that. even though we both both had our bad childhoods. But anyway, he just got me to the point that I just broke. I said, "Well, just go ahead and do it if you going to do it." >> You got any idea what what time period that was? Time frame. Was it still in March or was it in April? >> It was in April. >> It moved. >> It was that very day. That very day. March. Um April the 21st. You said, "Go ahead and do it." What do you mean by that? >> There wasn't no stopping him. >> I mean, what did he >> He said, "I'm going to do it for you, and I'm going to do it for me, and I'm going to do it for us." >> When you say do it, though, I mean, what do you mean? >> I didn't know at the time what he meant, sir, but now I do. He shot my husband. >> All right, Mark, what do you got? >> Yeah, there's lots in here. There's lots in here for everybody to cover. I'm just going to cover one thing, uh, because I think it's fantastic. We always talk about disparaging the victim. Disparaging the vict and and it's a bad sign. It's a bad sign. Yeah. So, I'll wipe this one off for you, Greg. Give it to you. >> I've never heard of a disparaging of the victim. He was a a European style gentleman, Dutch. Basically, like the biggest insults from Europe. He was Dutch. Basically going, he's a Dutch Dutch slave master. That's so disparaging the victim is when you when you put forward negative qualities about the person in order to cause, you know, listeners to go, "Oh, well, probably deserved something bad to happen to him." And and nobody deserves it more than the Dutch. Really >> spoken like a true Englishman. Ex. >> Exactly. Ex. Well, the French deserve it a little more than the Dutch. Let's just say uh Greg, what do you got on this one? >> Yeah, I'm a little bit longwinded on this one because this is a lovely one. We haven't quite seen this before. I'm going to start with a a question. What do country singer Red Sovine and Gllum from from The Lord of the Rings have in common. This woman, and I'll show you why. It's really kind of crazy because she's been in custody, I think, for a day, and she called the police back. That's the video we're watching to tell them the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth. She goes in that disparagement, but she's doing that forehead up, that request for approval, wanting to make sure you believe her the entire time. Her forehead is glued up. I think part of that is because she's done it her whole life. This is who she is. But she does this storytelling. Listen to the cadence of the storytelling. The reason I said she's got something in common with country music singer Red Sovine. You have to go listen to him. He did a storytelling kind of narrative about people driving a truck and trying to keep from running over a bunch of kids and dying on the side of the road. And it has the same cadence as this woman's story. It is beautiful. If you walk through it, it's just insane. Scott, I'm sure you know that one Inside Out, like Phantom 49 or one of those. Um, but she's done this her whole life. So, it sounds like it's natural for her. Or it could be if you've ne if you grip in the south and you ever went to a church where they do an altar call, it's the same thing that cadence change to get you to feel emotional as she's talking. And you can even see it. She starts talking about serving breakfast and coffee and she starts to rock. She's getting into that whole I always say going down the well to be emotional. Listen to that cadence shift when she does and it's beautiful. There's one thing in here that you rarely see that is this is if this woman's not if she is not a covert narcissist or full-blown narcissist. I don't know who is because she does a false humility move that is beautiful. You see distaste when she talks about it's a wife's duty. See distaste as she withdraws the side of her mouth chin boss of acceptance pursed lips and then she pauses for you to have time to respond. That's a beautiful thing. It reminds me I'm always reminded of videos or cartoons. When I was a kid, there was a show called Fogghorn Legghorn on the Looney Tunes. And if you've never seen that, his girlfriend was a chicken named Miss Prissry, and she would do that same exact thing as she went, "Yes." And she was false modesty. And that brings me to something Pile does really well. I think everybody should look into, especially if you got kids. He wrote a book called um Body Talk Animated where he talked about cartoons and how they have to get it right because the body language is all they have to communicate with. It's a beautiful book. And then now I'll leave you with the last part. She then turns to Smeaggel. She turns to Gllum as she argues both sides of the equation. Listen to her voice go from her being calm and rational and him being angry and she does the voices for both sides. It is so weird. And then she's just kind of crazy. She's about to drop into what Scott and I call transfer where she's not available. that rocking. But this cop, whether it's instinct or talent, pulls her right out of it. It's beautiful. This is funny. There's no stopping him. She goes on and on and on. And all I want to say is, "Did you ever think about telling him? Tell your husband or call the police or something in between." Scott, what do you got? All right. This is all acting. As a matter of fact, to me, it looks like u she's looking at the camera while she's doing a casting video for a Coin, you know, a Coin Brothers movie. That's how bad it is. And all it is is acting. She's she's doing what she thinks a person who's in that situation would look like and say. That's what she's acting like. That's why it reminds me of a city play. Like a monologue in a city play. So everything here is just performative. She's doing what she thinks she ought to do. And this personality type type, gosh, my accent's already reverted back to it from these people. Uh she's the kind of that's the way things are and that's the end of it. That's just that's the end of of the way it is. But she can't do that here. She can't put a stop to it. Apparently, she's the one in charge at her house because the way she's acting. That's what I would assume because she can put she can lay down the law and everybody in the house has to follow that, but she can't do that here. And she's not used to being in that situation. That's why why we see her playing both sides and trying to uh to to act her way out of this. And her expressions don't change much at all. We're not seeing much in there as far as real true expressions changing. I mean, we see that in the brow happening, but outside of that, there's really no true emotion we're seeing in there. Chase, what do you got? >> I'm going to call this the self-administered oath. Uh, she administers it on herself. What the hell? Like, I've never seen anybody really do that. Maybe in like a movie or something like a Chris Rock movie, not like a serious one. Um, this is so throughout this whole thing, I'm just going to focus on language only. What's she saying? What's the context of content and context of of what's going on in her speech? So, nobody asked her, "Will you lie?" Right? So, always pay attention to a question that's living inside of somebody else's head while you're talking to them. And that's exactly what she's answering. A question that's inside of her own head. And then she says, "I don't have the exact dates." And like 30 seconds later, that very day, April the 21st, she has the date. So, if you map out her mental fog here, uh, anything that's her actions, the stuff that she did is in like 240p and everything that Tim did is in like 4K resolution. Uh, so it's so much better. And then she uses these verbs. Tim pushes. Tim keeps on and then she says that she just broke. So what breaks? Do people actually break? Nope. Things break. Uh people are ones that like make decisions and stuff. So this is costume number one. And we're going to get to some more. And the costume one is the victim. Um, so she's basically saying she's authorizing a murderer to favor this guy's desire because of this guy's desire. So that first sentence was an opening statement like she is trying a case in this room here. And when somebody in a conversation announces their honesty, I'm going to be straight with you. Honestly, you know what? I've got I got no reason to lie. There's no accusation that triggered that. That's their there's a there's a prosecutor in their own head that's triggering some of that stuff. So, always listen for signs that there's a prosecutor there. So, don't call it out. If you ever hear it, don't call it out. Just kind of note the topic and maybe pay attention to it. That's all I got. >> Why is it that you asked that we would come back? Has something changed or something else that you want to say? >> Tell you tell you what happened. >> Okay. >> Tell you the truth, the whole truth. Nothing but the truth. >> Okay. That's all we want. >> I don't have the exact dates or times and everything. Uh but approximately this is May, March. Tim kept pushing me to leave my husband and everything. I wouldn't and I didn't want to leave my husband. I loved my husband. And he he thought it was awful because of the way that my husband treated me being the European style person he was being Dutch. Since October of last year, he had worked at home and I would take his breakfast up to him and serve him breakfast, coffee, go get the dishes, bring them down, take his lunch up to him. Timmy thought this was awful that I done this for him. And I kept telling him it wasn't bad. It was a wife's duty. And he said, "I can't handle the way that he treats you. He treats you like a slave. I don't know. I didn't feel like he treated me like a slave. So he kept on and on and and I kept sort of pushing him away. Kept pushing him away and trying to see him less and talk to him less and and telling him, you know, it's not the right thing to do. I wasn't raised like that. I know he wasn't raised like that. even though we both both had that bad childhoods. And anyway, he just got me to the point that I have just broke. I said, "Well, just go ahead and do it if you going to do it." >> You got any idea what what time period that was? Time frame. Was it still in March or was it in April? >> It was in April. >> Did it move? >> It was that very day. That very day. March. Um, April the 21st. >> You said go ahead and do it. What do you mean by that? >> There wasn't no stopping him. >> I mean, what did he say? >> He said, "I'm going to do it for you and I'm going to do it for me and I'm going to do it for us." >> When you say do it, though, I mean, what do you mean? >> I didn't know at the time what he meant, sir. But now I do. He shot my husband, but you can also find it on my phone where I did call him. He said about like 1:30 in the morning or something, and I told him that you killed my husband. I can't believe you done. He said, I did it for you and I did it for me and I did it for us, but I said, you killed my husband. Then the next night, sitting down on the porch, he kept coming out to me and I was very cold toward him. He said, "Are you angry with me?" And I said, "Well, yes. You killed my husband." Well, I thought that's what you wanted me to do. I said, "I didn't tell you to do that. I didn't tell you to to kill my husband. And then he sat down there continued to tell me how he did it. He said that he parked the truck up like my back porch is back here. You all been there? >> Yes, ma'am. >> Okay. In the parking area right here. Yes, ma'am. >> He said he parked his truck there and walked down there. He said when Fred got to the box, apparently mailing a letter, which I didn't know that he was mailing a letter after Tim had told Tim had told me this. >> Mhm. >> Anyway, he said I said he didn't hear you. He said no. He said I said what' you do? How'd you do it? What did you do? He said, "You're getting too loud." I said, "Tell me how you did this to him." >> Take your time. He said, "I hid in the bushes." And when he come up there and he was facing the mailboxes, he said, he walked up and stuck the gun to the back of his head and shot him. And then he just some kind of rope or something up white thing and drug him out in the woods. >> Okay, get your breath now. >> Oh god, help me. Oh no. >> Deep breath. Sh. Deep breath. >> Oh Jesus. I'm sorry. I'm so sorry. I'm so sorry. I was wrong. I'm so sorry. >> Listen to me. Listen up. >> Oh Jesus. I'm sorry. Lord, forgive me. Father, I sinned. >> Sherry. >> I hear you, Neil. >> I'm fine. >> I'm not asking fine. >> Wow. >> That's Greg. What do you got? >> That's a whole lot. Yeah. Again, it's funny. What What are you gonna do? She's Why didn't you call the person who killed your husband instead of or the law? Why Why'd you call him? Why'd you sit on the porch with him? The absolute ludicrousness of the entire situation if you're not involved should point out the fractured logic. But she thinks, my opinion, she thinks it will go easier on her if she admits something and then she gets to court and finds out it doesn't go better. It's funny because a good interrogation can feel like therapy. If you're good at what you do and you get a person who is guilty of something in the corner, they'll feel like they're taking weight off their shoulders. You make them feel good about telling you the truth. Now, they're going to prison still. That part's okay. But they feel better because you make them feel better. It's funny because she shows no incremental responsibility without talking about the she she does sorry, she does incremental responsibility, but takes no responsibility for it. She's not talking about the elephant in the room that she's an accomplice. She's not saying, "Look, this would not have happened but for me." And there's more that singing voice thing that she's doing that is just crazy. And it's just weird to watch. What's interesting for me is I've known at least one person who has this personality type and has the ability to go from 0 to 60 feeling angry and hurt and crying. And she's got some congruent body language. If you look, look at those brow tips go up to sorrow. Look at all that stuff going. There's not a lot of tears, but there's a lot of people who professionally cry. and that's their way out of trouble. And I in my exposure to people like this, it's been they've lived in a very strict household where the parents have rules, maybe religious or something else, and they're bad actors, and they have to beg their way out of stuff all the time. And one of their best techniques is just to ball and cry and scream and go at that for about 30 seconds. Then people feel bad enough they leave them alone. And that works a lot of times. Doesn't work when you're going to court and something's being recorded. There are police in front of you because watch it how she does. She's got real sorrows. She's got large illustrators. She cries about him mailing the letter, but there's no tears. And it's weird that she chooses that spot around him mailing the letter to cry. We're going to see her come up with a whole lot of other stuff that is weird as she goes. But watch that explosive that explosion of emotion. That is probably how she's gotten out of stuff her whole life and then getting away from it. Interesting. I love when the cop says, "I'm not asking you if you're fine." It's one of my favorite lines in any video we've ever done when she goes, "I'm okay." And whatever his name is, Newton. And he goes, "I'm not asking if you're fine." Because he knows he's got her on the ropes. He's going to lock her up. Mark, what do you got? >> Yeah. Uh, I got this. You killed my husband. No name of the victim whatsoever. I think I think the victim's name is Fred here. So, I want to hear you killed Fred. You killed Fred. No, we get you killed my husband. Uh then we get um uh are you angry with me? What? Yes. Yes, you killed my husband. And a single shoulder shrug. Very small one, but a single shoulder shrug which makes me feel like she's going to be uncertain as to whether uh he did kill her husband or or or it's his fault entirely, let's say. Um, she says, "I said I didn't tell you to do that." With an upward inflection. Again, uncertainty, a question there. I didn't tell you to do that. And then there's a look for approval there, the eyebrow raise, and she locks eye contact. Then with the interrogator, I would say there's enough of a cluster here of both what she's saying, the intonation of how she's saying it and the body language that I would predict she was more a part of this than she says she was. In fact, it's it's quite likely she told him to kill uh Fred um and she planned it. She's the instigator of it. Whereas in the last video, what she said was, "Go ahead and do it if you want to." She just conceds to it happening. No, I reckon she planned this one. Chase, what do you got on this one? So, am I allowed to My psychic instincts are kicking in here. Am I allowed to just kind of >> go with it, >> riff on them a little bit here? I would bet $12 that she has I can see a a vision of her sending back mashed potatoes in an angry voice and yelling at a waitress. And I I don't know how, but I can see it. Uh I can see it clearly watching this video. But inside of her story right here, she quotes herself. She says, "I didn't tell you to do that. and tell you to kill my husband. Nobody asked if she told him, right? She's answering uh some uh charge that that nobody made against her. And then she has this unprompted stoppage somehow like which I didn't know that he was mailing me a letter. What the hell? Who asked about a letter? So, this mailbox is somehow like really a big deal in her head. And you're hearing more responses like this. There's no one asking her questions. So, you're hearing another prosecutor appear in her head and she's answering that prosecutor. And then you hear her go, "You all been there. You've heard her mids sentence." So, what she's doing is checking her audience. That's what she's doing. She's just checking to make sure they're on board here. And there's an audience swap. when she breaks here, she skips the detective and goes to God. So, she changes the audience, right? And I was wrong and there's plea bargaining with with uh heaven. So, when a story is continually non-stop quoting its its own like innocent lines, that's a script. Scripts have writers and writers have a reason, right? they have something a place they have to arrive at. If you talk to somebody with real memories, real memories are super messy. They don't come pre what's the word? Lawyered attorneyed. When somebody's recollection of something that happened has all these clean quotes, I said the exact right thing. The dialogue was kind of like absolutely perfect. That dialogue was written afterward. So ask a question about a detail next to that quoted moment and I bet they can't remember it. So you have 4K detail down to 240p again. And you can prove it by just asking that question right around that dialogue. Uh I thought up a cool line for this and I thought I would memorize it and I didn't. >> Oh man, come on. You got it written down? >> No, it was about scripts. Um, oh, uh, scripts have no next door neighbors. That's all you got to do is ask about the neighbors. >> Yep. >> Uh, Scott, what do you got? >> All right. Yeah. And the thing is about the scripts, Chase, they have setups. They have like four or five of these little things there. There's their main one they use all the time. When they when they've done something wrong and they come in to defend themselves, they'll use the same structure for those those setups. In other words, I have a uh the story they tell if they did this thing and they'll do the story they tell if they were late for something. The story they'll tell if they get a lot of trouble for something. And they're all structured differently. I think this is one she just leans back on because she's doing it with such ease because obviously obviously it's fake. It's all performative. And she said she called him. She I mean she just said she called him and then why didn't she call again like you guys are saying why didn't you call 911? The guy shot her husband. What? What's up with that? And was he mailing a letter to her? Is that what they're saying? >> No. You You want the story? >> Yeah. >> She's claiming She's claiming that she didn't know he was going to mail a letter. She >> only said he left. Then we find out that she actually convinced him to go mail something so her boyfriend could be close by and kill him. >> That's That's why she's incremental admission of guilt because she's trying to let out just what she has to. >> Okay. And when she's saying, "What did you do?" It sounds like it's in the middle part of a joke somebody's telling because this is somebody who's used to having people listen to her and that's so that's why she's taking her time. She's this is a performance she's done a thousand times and she understands the reactions that she's going to get from these things. This is she didn't sit down and rehearse it, but she's rehearsed it by doing it so many times in the past. And so I'm saying these these these perfectly structured little stories they put together that make them the hero of each one of those stories. And that I think that's important. Now, the fake crying, that's hilarious because she's doing it wrong. Because when people are fake cry or they're really crying in front of people, they're trying not to cry. And and she's she's trying >> she's talking to the Lord. She's talking to the Lord. She needs to cry. >> She's trying as hard as she can. She can't she can't cry at all. So, she's not she's not I don't know. She just can't get to she can't get to the to the edge of that where it can make her cry. So, I I'll leave it there. There's some other things I had that that are funny, but they're graphic and it just would be rude at this point. So, let me ask you this, Mark. Where are you? What's going on over there? What are we looking at? >> I am at the farm. I'm uh two two and a half hours north of Toronto in a place called Blue Mountain. >> Wow. You got any blue grass up there? >> I got a lot of gr lot of green grass, but no blue grass. >> The music, not the actual grass itself. Out there is kind of something the size of a football pitch. Out there is another one the size of a football pitch. And then down that way is multiple football pitches of grass. Yeah. >> Wow. >> Come bring your balls. >> Do you have Do you have any way to get music up there? >> Uh I got a little Bluetooth speaker over there. >> Okay. Do you know what bluegrass music is? >> Oh yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. >> You should get some of that going up there, man. It's a perfect spot. It's old time stuff. Go for the Carter family. The old the good stuff. like the person >> get I'll get myself a rocking chair. >> Yeah, man. >> Try to do >> the uh I think the only place she's sending back mashed potato right now is it's one scoop and it's on a plastic tray >> and they're powdered. >> You know they're powdered. >> They're they're army food, not navy food, right? Yeah. Yeah. >> But it's her husband going, "I thought you said you wanted one scoop." But you can also find it on my phone where I did call him. He said about like 1:30 in the morning or something. And I told him that you killed my husband. I can't believe you done. He said I did it for you and I did it for me and I did it for us. But I said you killed my husband. Then the next night sitting down on the porch, he would kept coming out to me and I was very cold toward him. He said, "Are you angry with me?" And I said, "Well, yes, you killed my husband." Well, I thought that's what you wanted me to do. I said, 'I didn't tell you to do that. I didn't tell you to do to kill my husband. And then he sat down there continued to tell me how he did it. He said that he parked the truck up like my back porch is back here. You all been there? >> Yes, ma'am. >> Okay. In the parking area right here. He said he parked his truck there and walked down there. He said when Fred got to the box, apparently mailing a letter, which I didn't know that he was mailing a letter after Tim had told me Tim had told me this. >> Mhm. >> Anyway, he said I said he didn't hear you. He said no. He said I said what' you do? How'd you do it? What did you do? He said, "Sh, you're getting too loud." I said, "Tell me how you did this to him. >> Take your time." >> He said, "I hid in the bushes." And when he come up there and he was facing the mailbox as he said, he walked up and stuck the gun to the back of his head and shot him and then he just some kind of rope or something up white thing and drunk him out in the woods. Okay, get your breath now. >> God, help me. >> Deep breath. Sh. Deep breath. >> Oh, Jesus. I'm sorry. I'm so sorry. I'm so sorry. I was wrong. I'm so sorry. >> Listen to me. Listen. >> Oh, Jesus. I'm sorry. Lord, forgive me. Father, I sinned. >> Sher, >> I hear you, Neil. Okay, >> I'm fine. >> I'm not asking you fine. >> Tim wouldn't have pulled up, gone to the mailbox, and waited that night without knowing that Fred was going to come out. >> Someone had to have been in the house to get Fred to come out and say, "Go pay a bill or check the mail." >> He was going to go He was going to go mail them. >> Let let him finish. didn't come out every night that week and just sit there and wait and take a chance for Fred to come out. It didn't happen that way, hun. You were involved. Those phone calls, those phone calls were still involved. >> You had to have communicated with him and said that he's coming. >> I did. >> Okay. You had Fred go to that mailbox either mail or pay a bill? >> No. Did you call him when he left on his own and say he's on the way or? >> Um, >> you come across a part of the truth when you call. >> I think so. Yes. Yes. >> You think so? What? >> Yes. Yes. >> Guess what? >> Yes, I did call him. >> Called Tim. >> Yes. >> And said what? >> Remember one? >> He's leaving. >> Okay. To go to the mailbox. >> I didn't say that. I said he's leaving. >> But Tim had to have known. He probably Yeah. >> Did he didn't come out the night before and just wait and he wasn't planning on coming the next day? >> No, but he would drive he would drive by and stuff like that. >> That was the night that had been planned. Especially if you're getting ready to go on a trip the next day. >> That very night. That very day was when it was planned and >> Okay. When did y'all plan to do it that night? >> I actually didn't plan it. I didn't really think that he would do it. >> Okay. When did you discuss it and say it may happen? on them phone calls that you have on that paper. >> Okay. So, the calls that you said that you were under medication, you don't remember, >> you did you did place those calls and that was >> I placed them vaguely and remember on them vaguely. >> Okay. The >> I'm guilty. >> You you called her. Okay. >> You're doing what you needed to >> I mean, but you called us back and it was a little bit off. We're just trying to make sure that we're we're 100%. >> All right, Chase, what do you got? >> So, this is all if we're going I'm going language here. I made a commitment to do that. There's so much in this video that I wanted to comment on, but I I made this video blindfolded. I wasn't literally, but I wanted to just do language here. So, we have rifle 40 bucks, small caliber. the dude, the motel dude, uh, I don't remember his name, but the kill order is he's leaving. Two words, right? It's 11, whatever it is, 0:05 p.m. So, this murder is is kind of running on this language, right? And it's it's a permissive language. Go ahead and do it. Go ahead and do it. The whole murder is running on permission, the whole thing. and then targeting like he's leaving and then I think there was another text said I'm done right I think uh if that's right so it's like permission targeting and then uh confirmation so nobody touched anybody like nothing happened until those that little two-word sentence came out that was kind of a big deal but you have the submission here she uh she says yes I did call Tim and then she says called Tim or yes I did call and then called Tim the eye falls off the second time. So, and that's a big deal when the eye starts disappearing from phrases, especially guilt phrases. And what what maybe I might not be the person that invented this phrase, but it's called confession rationing. And Greg, you might know, but uh she says, "I was involved and then I did and then I did call." So, it's like these people, you're going to meet them one in a hundred, maybe one in 200. Uh, it's one inch at a time to make the It's like just It's like getting into a hot tub that's really hot. It's just one little inch at a time to make sure it's safe, to make sure I'm not going to get burned too bad. Um, it's it's it's never past and and typically when they take these one inch at a time, it's never past the point of what's proven. And that's a big point here in my opinion. I y'all may disagree. So the murder weapon was in many ways here a sentence. It's those two words, right? She can say the two words that killed him. What she can't build, like she's sitting there for hours with these guys. She can't build the one sentence that says, "I sent my husband out there to die." The the actual truth. So if I'm focusing on words, it's what the words did versus what the words might admit. And that's a big ass gap. huge ass gad. So, listen for when the eye goes away when you're talking to people. Uh, somebody says, "H, went to the bar a few minutes ago, made some mistakes, called him." So, pronouns disappear off an action, it's worth paying attention to. Somebody tells you that means something all by itself, that's that's Scott, what do you got? >> All right. What I think is fascinating here here, it's not well it's not fascinating, but I think it's kind of interesting because she um goes out of these emotional upheavalss into nothing very quickly. I'm explaining and here's what's happening. No, hang on a minute. What? What are we doing? Okay. And then she goes back into the acting part. So, we're actually not seeing any of these morphing things back from one emotion to another emotion. It's just there it goes. And then he knocks her off script when he says, "Hang on a minute." He's he has to talk to her for a second because he has she has to let him finish and then so it knocks her off script. So it it kind of throws her u to the side for a couple seconds. Then she gets back on track and she starts right down that same path again. So I think this is interesting because we we it's blatant that there's acting here and she's faking emotion. So if you're going to let's watch fake emotion 101, this would probably be it. seeing somebody come from all that emotion down to nothing and back up to that emotion again. It's like going, "Okay, go." Because that's what's happening in her head as she's going through and say, "Okay, now I gotta say this." And I think she's done that so often again. She can just lay back into that structure and cruise right through it with no problem. Even though >> your your favorite woman in the world does that all the time, >> Megan, >> I won't say that. Well, she does do that, you know. You know what else bothers me about Megan Markle? So, anyway, that's all I got on that one. Mark, what do you got? Uh, yeah. Listen, I'm just going to agree, reiterate, concur with with all of that. Uh, she's gone back to the dressing room now and the emotion is over. It's done. It's over. And you're absolutely right, Scott. It's just a switch. She's like, "I'm not doing that anymore." And it and it's in a way it's really bad acting because she's on stage all the time. It's like, "No, no, no. You haven't left the stage now. This is not a different situation from the last one." It's a different form of questioning because she's kind of being cross-examined a little harsher here. And so, she can't do the performance of the emotion. She's having to think long and harder about her answers. So her eyes go up and and around and she's back to calm and collected. It's a massive, massive switch. And of course, it doesn't read right. And of course, people like us will instantly go, "Well, she's probably done something very bad then. She's protecting herself around this." And we're probably right. Uh Greg, Greg, what do you >> I think it's more complex than all that because I think it all ties together. I think what she has done her entire life is she's done that torrent of emotion and people would leave her alone and she'd back away. And when that didn't work, she'd go from zero to 60. I say she goes 0 to 60 in either direction at ludicrous speed. You'll know that reference. But she goes back down as quickly she comes up. It's crazy to watch. And what that is is a next step. And Chase, I don't know what you call that, but I've always called it an incremental emission of guilt. And what she's doing when she does that is trying to throw out a piece of cheese to divert the rat. She's trying to avoid conflict. And so she thinks if she throws a little bit out, she'll get away with it. And it's worked for her in the past. you can guarantee the problem is that you have to continually incrementally admit a little more to get away and that's what the organ that I always say these words organism is doing what made the organism successful that's how she got here it's usually if you are going to be gaslighted you'll see this they'll some torrent of emotion anger whatever it is and the next thing you know they're starting to admit a little bit of something to make you feel a little bit better and then they can work you and now if you pay attention to her words back to what you're saying Chase she says now he was going to go mail something that's a direct direct contradiction to I didn't know what was going on. I just said he left the house. I think that's cuz her brain is a little squirrel in the road trying to figure out where to go and she doesn't know what to do at this point. She even rolls her eyes at this cop at one point. If you notice when you ask a question, she rolls her eyes. But like all good interrogators, he's suspended his ego and he just doesn't care. So he's just like, "Yeah, you're going to jail. I don't care, honey. Just keep talking." When he when asked if she called and told him he was on the way, look at her eye movement. Shift to conjecture. So, we I've watched her eyes enough already to say she goes here for recall on this side of her head. She goes to the opposite side and then she begins to incrementally confess by saying, "I think so." This is a person who's done this stuff her whole life. You can see her breathing when she gets cornered. She starts to admit to the fact she starts nodding and then she goes, "I'm guilty." That's another tool for a person to get you away. If you were with a gas lighter, that's the kind of thing those people do is they will blockade and make you feel guilty and then they'll block you from any action. Yeah, Chase. >> So, you tell me if I'm you stop me if I'm getting close to anything classified, please. >> Okay. >> So, I I think what most people do is they rehearse a false story the same way they watch TV and they do it in third person, which is really discombobulant because we're not used to thinking in that way. Even if you're a screenwriter, it's tough for your own life to do it with your own life. >> That's right. >> Um, and I think we remember memories in first person, but you hear so many people telling a narrative from a third person p ov like they're looking at all these different angles. They can remember different things without feeling like it's a lie because they're talking about it from a different angle even though they're not aware they could not have had that angle back in that moment. Well, one of the things I use when I'm teaching Chase is I always say there's two kinds of storytelling. One is acting and one is improv. A person who's storytelling, who's acting, is reading, to your point, a script. They've got details they need to deliver. The improv person is responding and answering questions about what happened. And that's the fundamental difference in the stories. In my book, when I'm talking to people and I hear them acting and there's a script and they're telling parts of the story that other people would usually tell, it's awkward and it's off. I think it's a good one. Hey, Scott, is this a good place to talk about our missing person of the week? Sure. Go ahead. So, this time it's kind of personal for me, guys. There's a guy I went to school with from third grade on to when I graduated. I haven't seen Dennis in years. He had texted me or written me last year, year before, but he's missing. And this is a guy named Jerome Dennis Hall. He was last seen on November 7th, 2025 by his family leaving an area in 14th Street in Phoenix City, Alabama. And surveillance showed him walking into Columbus, Georgia at 1:37 p.m. on November 8th, 2025. Didn't appear to be in distress and was observed casually walking along the Riverwalk. It's the last confirmed sighting. He was wearing a dark colored shirt, gray jacket, tan pants, and white sneakers. I, if I recall correctly, Dennis is 5'10"ish, bald on top, hair on the sides. Look out for Dennis. See if you can find him. Hadn't talked to him in forever, but knew him from third grade to 11th grade or senior year. We're in the same home room because we have the same last names. So, knew the guy pretty well. Really sad story. Help us find him. >> Tim wouldn't have pulled up, gone to the mailbox, and waited that night without knowing that Fred was going to come out. >> Someone had to have been in the house to get Fred to come out and say, "Go pay a bill or check the mail." >> He was going to go He was going to go mail them. >> Let Let him finish. just come out every night that week and just sit there and wait and take a chance for Fred to come out. It didn't happen that way, hun. You were involved. His phone calls were still involved. >> You had to communicated with him and said that he's coming. >> I did. >> Okay. You had Fred go to that mailbox. Either mail or pay a bill. >> No. Did you call him when he left on his own and say he's on the way or? >> Um, >> you come across a part of the truth when you follow. >> I think so. Yes. Yes. >> You think so? What? >> Yes. Yes. >> Guess what? >> Yes, I did call him. >> Called Tim. >> Yes. >> And said what? >> Remember one? >> He's leaving. >> Okay. To go to the mailbox. >> I didn't say that. I said he's leaving. >> But Tim had to have known. He probably Yeah. >> Did he didn't come out the night before and just wait and he wasn't planning on coming the next day? >> No, but he would drive he would drive by and stuff like that. >> That was the night that had been planned. Especially if you're getting ready to go on a trip the next day. >> That very night. That very day was when it was planned. And >> Okay. When did y'all plan to do it that night? >> I actually didn't plan it. I didn't really think that he would do it. >> When did you discuss it and say it may happen? on them phone calls that you have on that paper. >> Okay. So, the calls that you said that you were under medication and you don't remember, >> you did you did place those calls and that was >> I placed them vaguely and remember on Bley. >> Okay. The >> I'm guilty. >> You you called Okay. >> You're doing what you needed to >> I mean, but you called us back and it was a little bit off. We're just trying to make sure that we're we're 100%. So the the calls they were about taking care of Fred, >> doing something to cause harm to him. Correct. >> Correct. You're talking to Tim about >> Yeah. But the earlier >> the primary call, what did you mean by the primary call? his primary cause. It's not on here, >> which would have been primary >> him calling when him he was calling me and and telling me what he's going to do and what he wasn't going to do and this and and me trying to talk to him. There wasn't even talking to him then. And then when he did call and I had a long conversation with him, which I don't know how long this is, I said, "Go ahead and do whatever you're going to do. You're going to do it anyway someday." Anyway, >> what what was his plans after that happened to Fred? Was he talking like marriage? >> He wanted to come. No, he wanted to come to my house >> afterwards. >> Yes, sir. >> What did he tell? >> He wanted to come to my house. In my house. I said, "Are you crazy?" >> Where did he go after he did that? >> I have no idea. >> Did he call you after he done it though? >> Not for a while. I don't believe. Well, I don't know for sure. I can't. >> Just like we said before. >> Okay. >> Uh you called him at 5 after 11. Okay. >> That was real short. He said he's leaving. >> He called you back. >> 40 11:42, which is about, you know, not quite. >> That was when it was done, >> right? He called you to to say it was done. It was 192 seconds. So 11:42 he called back. What did he say on that call? Did he >> I'm done. >> That's all he said cuz I mean it was like 3 minute call. >> Let me take a minute. Okay. >> Okay. >> He was out of breath. He was really out of breath. >> Mhm. and I was having a hard time understanding him. And uh he said, "I'm done. I'm I'm in my truck going down the road or something on the order that um it's over. It's done." Just >> specific detail. just >> not not not until we were sitting on the porch and he just sit there on my brother's porch and told me >> he said he shot him. >> All right, Mark, what do you got? >> Uh yeah. Uh that's when it was done. She says that's when it was done. So it uh she's distancing from the murder, the killing. Uh and uh there's no name of the victim. So here's what I want to hear. That's when he murdered Fred. That's when he murdered Fred. No, that's when it was done. And we also get eye accessing for memory. And her eyes go really high and and up to the left or or the right. Well, when I'm accessing a long Now, this is just me. So, this isn't necessarily everybody, okay? But when I access a a long back memory, my eyes are going to go down here. That's just me. But her eyes don't seem to go anywhere that I would expect somebody to go to access a really strong true memory. So, as you were both saying, uh, Chase, Greg, um, look, in acting, you've really to to to get it really realistic like it's true, you've got to be in the character's shoes. you got to wear their shoes. So, you're actually inhabiting their their shoes, their body, and seeing through their eyes. And a lot of the time, she isn't seeing through her own eyes the story. as you say, she's she's um disembodied, floating up above it in a whole different spatial, which is why the eyes go to an odd place for my money as to where the eye should go for a real true memory, but I'm I'm willing to be uh adjusted on that. So, so Greg, what do you reckon to uh the eye accessing of >> I think what she's doing with all of her eye accessing is trying to figure out the next step in this thing that she's done. I think her her brain is probably a little bit of a malstrm of sorts and things just happen for her. I bet there's no methodical logical driven process, but she's done this so many times. We get to see real gaslighting un I mean right in front of the camera here. This is beautiful. There's no camera here. She probably could get away with this kind of stuff in an argument. She unadmits something she just admitted. I'm guilty. I did it. Now she's saying she's backpedaling and she's saying something else. I forget exactly the words. I'll walk through here in just a second. But she's rethinking how to get to that backpedal and get away from that behavior she just admitted. It's really weird. Watch her do that internal voice down left eye accessing quickly. That's her navigating language and what to say. And what she has done is thrown out the piece of cheese to try to divert the attack. It didn't work. Now she's got to pick her cheese up. Well, you can't. There's a recording going on right there. We just saw you say you're guilty. She even starts to create a new category of calls. Now they're primary calls. I don't know what a primary call is. Any of you guys ever hear a primary call? Neither have these police. They're like, "What the hell are you talking about?" >> Maybe it's style. >> Maybe it's Mark would know if it's >> and that would have been founded in some year. Mark would know. But listen to those elongated vowels. These are primary calls. on here calling me those long vowels. We always look for people who are fishing for approval and then she tries to talk her conspirator out of it. This is she says I tried to talk him out of it. >> Greg, can you do those audio examples one more time? I couldn't >> call me. Yeah. On here. >> Yeah. So the Anyway, she gets to this place where now she's retracting the fact that she called her conspirator. She says, "I called him and tried to talk him out of it." Instead of he's on his way. Come on. You just admitted it right there on video and now you're going to backpedal. This is how gaslighting works. They make you question whether you were losing your mind or not. And then he wanted to come to my house. She's indignant. And Chase, you're going to talk about her pitch and tone here in a minute, but she's indignant. I She must misunderstand the significance of her personality and her importance that this guy want to come to her house. Well, he's a co-conspirator in a murder. That's why he want to come to your house. Not because he was somebody. Then again, when they ask her, "Did he call you after?" She goes, "Not for a while." She goes, "Mark, that's what you're seeing." She's working. You see that go way up in her head. She's trying to figure out what actually happened. How am I going to tie this together? And I think she's looking at a memory, but I don't think it's of any significance. I think she's trying to figure out what they have, what kind of records they have, and where there was evidence. because right after that she looks over at the call log to see if in fact she threat checks the call log to see if in fact it's there. She's she's got herself in a bind here and I don't think she even realizes this is not somebody who's trying to disclose something. She's doing something else and then you see that long meditating eye closure as she meditates and her memory comes back. I think all that is is a deconlict pause after she picks up data threat checks. She goes in deconlict in her brain right in front of the camera. It's just kind of crazy. Chase, what do you got? >> Yeah, we learned this in the devil went down to Georgia. When they're in a bind and they're way behind, they're willing to make a deal. And she and she starts negotiating like crazy in this. So, we have two of these I'm guilty phrases. And it and if you're watching this, it feels like surrender until you realize guilty of what? There's no verb. There's no object, no murder, no mailbox, whatever. This is a a fog machine. Th this is chaff and redirect. I think this, to use Greg's word here, and if they accept the this general confession, all of these specific questions are going to stop. That's what's going to happen. So, and then we see her memory just go full-on elastic. uh something about being medicated if I remember correctly. I can't remember. Uh but then these records hit the table and then she stretches her story again and just as far as the new evidence is pulling, right? The story changes to match the new evidence, the next little inch that comes across the table. And then there's a a stack of hedges that's unbelievable. It's crazy. She says, "I actually," the word actually, "I actually didn't plan it. I didn't really think he would do it." If you strip the hedges, there was an it to plan and a murder to do, right? >> Yep. >> And and the detectives here don't take the bait, which is fantastic. But if you think about this, when you when you're ever you're talking to anybody in your life, honest memory doesn't like update itself when you show it some paperwork. Doesn't happen. Memory doesn't work like that. They're going to say, "Your paperwork's full of shit." So, keep this in mind when you hear somebody when somebody hands you this like vague apology. This is how people kind of buy their way out of specific confessions, right? And this works on teenagers. It works on business executives who Scott's interrogated more than all of us put together. Uh it works on a lot of people being able to find that stuff. Mark, what do you got? >> Uh I've been I think uh >> Scott's last. I'll go last. >> So anyway, speaking of the devil went down to Georgia and you guys know I knew Charlie Daniels, right? And we well I lived in Boston at 24 Peter Street. Right next door was this pizza place called Yanny's Pizza. And Yanny was a Greek fella and he liked me cuz I was southern. And here's why. Because I had a big accent back then. And I'd go over there and we when we didn't have money, we were poor over there, you know, and going to Berkeley and, you know, going to college and having money. Then he would give us free pizza. He would he would he would feed us, right? And his favorite person, musician was Charlie Daniels. And these other guys came in one day, we're all having, you know, waiting on our pizza. This guy came in. He said, and he said, "I can't believe that you like Van Halen, that you don't like Van Halen." He said, "I don't like Van Halen." They, you know, they whatever they suck. He said, "No, they don't suck." He said, "And they started laughing at him because they're like Charlie Daniels." And he goes like this. He goes, "Hey, man. Charlie Daniels said, "Kick your ass." Thought that was hilarious. >> Your Greek accent's phenomenal. >> I I don't know how to do I do one accent for anybody outside of America. That was it. >> I got it. >> So, put that in anything. >> The Greeks in my house are offended. >> I know. I should do it for Adidas and see what you did. >> You just did. You just did. try to make a fake phone call to Dina. It's just me from the homeland. I can do a moon accent though. You know, I am from the moon. That's all I got. That and Greek and the moon. So anyway, so she's going along with everything that happened and all the while she's thinking she's protecting herself from going to prison. I think she's under the impression it's not going to be as bad for her. She's she's set up this murder because uh she she's she's saying she did it, you know. So everything stops, man. and the happy breathing stops. There's there's no more sadness. No more sudden upheaval or of of emotion or those uh stomach spasms, breath spasms of, you know, I just realize what happened and you breathe in really quickly. Those things spasmotic gasps, none of that. She stops crying. There's nothing there. So, this is all again, it goes back to being an act. And again, she's done this a thousand times. That's why she's so good at it. And you can see her flip back into it. Not that she goes, "Okay, I gotta go now." What would you call that, Mark? Is there some word they have where you you cut and everything? Okay. And not action, but there's got to be something where you think then I got to go back to my character and be, you know, Superman or SP, whoever it is. And what do you call that? Going from nothing back into your person to your actor. >> I mean, that's just being professional. >> Acting, >> not carrying it on into the rest of some actors are a little bit, you know, don't quirly. >> You know, that method guys between takes you'll break my character. But yeah, the majority of actors can just switch it on, switch it off. >> Have you ever seen Billy Bob Thornton when he's going back into being uh the guy from Sling Blade? Have you ever seen that video where where they're doing it long before they did the movie? And he's got Carl the Carl face on. And then when they all start laughing about something, he comes out of that. I swear I swear I think I saw his head change even everything change. It go he turns back into Billy Bob Thornton from that. It's the most bizarre thing. They start up again and he's he's sort of morphs into that. It's the dangest thing I've ever seen in my life, man. It was kind of scary. That's why he's my favorite actor. >> All right, we good. >> Yep. >> Yeah. >> So, the the calls they were about taking care of Fred, doing something to cause harm to him. Correct. >> Correct. You're talking to Tim about >> Yeah, but the earlier >> the primary call. What did you mean by the primary call? his primary cause. It's not on here, >> which would have been primary. >> Him call it when him he was calling me and and telling me what he's going to do and what he wasn't going to do and this and and me trying to talk to him. There wasn't even talking to him then. And then when he did call and I had a long conversation with him, which I don't know how long this is, I said, "Go ahead and do whatever you're going to do. You're going to do it anyway someday." Anyway, >> what what was his plans after that happened to Fred? Was he talking like marriage? >> He wanted to come. No, he wanted to come to my house >> afterwards. >> Yes, sir. >> What did he tell? >> He wanted to come to my house. In my house. I said, "Are you crazy?" >> Where did he go after he did that? >> I have no idea. >> Did he call you after he done it though? >> Not for a while. I don't believe. Well, I don't know for sure. I can't. >> Just like we said before. >> Okay. >> Uh, you called him at 5 after 11. Okay. >> That was real short. He said he's leaving. >> He called you back. >> 40 11:42, which is about, you know, not quite. >> That was when it was done, >> right? He called you to to say it was done. It was 192 seconds. So 11:42, you called back. What did he say on that call? Did he >> I'm done. >> That's all he said cuz I mean it was like 3 minute call, call. >> Let me take a minute. Okay. >> Okay. >> He was out of breath. He was really out of breath. >> Mhm. and I was having a hard time understanding him. And u he said, "I'm done. I'm I'm in my truck going down the road or something on the order that um it's over. It's done." >> Just specific detail. He just >> not not not until we were sitting on the porch and he just sit there on my brother's porch and told me >> he said he shot him. >> Have you seen the clip about how Bill how Slingblade got his haircut? >> How Sling Oh, you mean how Carl? No. What is >> Yeah, Carl got his haircut. >> No, tell us about it. >> Billy Bob went to the local barber shop. >> Oh, yeah. >> And that was just the the regular haircut. Yeah. I've never seen that movie. I've never seen that movie. >> You've never seen Sling Blade? >> I mean, I'll watch it this week. >> No, you're going to watch it now. Let's cut Let's stop this right now, Greg, so you can go watch that. >> I'm a big fan of Billy. >> Still talk to you on the phone and you haven't even you haven't seen Sling Blade. >> I'm a big fan of Billy Bob. I've never seen the movie. >> You know how important he is to me. Is >> that what you're saying? He probably >> He bought a rifle >> from a guy at the value. What is it the name of the motel he was staying at? >> Value place. Value place. >> Okay. He bought a rifle, a small caliber rifle, he said, from a guy there for 40 bucks. And he stuck it to the back of his head and pull the trigger. >> And he said that Fred fell and hit the concrete. That's when he took the rope, put it around his neck, and drug him off. You say where he got the rope from. >> You say where he got the rope from. >> No, I don't know. >> Without telling you too much. Don't want to tell you everything. Some of that's not matching up. I'm not saying it's not how it happened. I mean, it's not it doesn't sound >> I'm just telling you what he told me. >> Okay. >> I don't know what happened. I'm telling you all what he told me. >> Most of what he told you is right, but there's a little there's a little little small >> Was my husband shot? Nobody's told me. Well, that's part of our issue, >> huh? >> That's part of our issue. >> Oh my God. He That's what he told me. As God is my witness on my children's life, grandchildren's life. He said he came up behind him and he was right behind him and the gun was touching the back of his head or neck or whatever back there. >> Why did Fred go to the mailbox to begin with? I missed something back there. All I can figure out is I didn't know that he was going to mail the medical insurance. >> But you understand what I'm saying. If Tim Tim, why is Tim there? How did he >> Did you tell Fred to go mail something? >> No, I did not tell Fred to go mail anything. >> How was it? How was it going to happen if you weren't going to send him out? You're just hoping he was going to go out. >> Well, I knew that we weren't going to be back May the 1st, >> right? >> And his medical insurance was due before then. and he wanted to sleep in the next morning and not have to get up too early. And that's what I took that he had mailed. That's why I had took that he had went down and mailed. And when I found the, like I said, the checkbook that had the two checks in it, >> like I said, I didn't know about the revenue check and this one for the insurance was dated and everything. >> Mark, what do you got? Yeah. >> Uh, look, this was a question she wasn't expecting. Did he say where he got the rope from? Did he say where he got? Now, I if if it wasn't part of the story, you'd go, "No, didn't say." Or if it was part of the story, you go, "Yeah, he did, actually." But she goes, "Huh?" And then she has not organized uh for this at all. She says, "No, I don't know." And there's grief. There's an eyebrow raise. There's a head tilt. There's an eye lock. There's a mouth open. She doesn't know what to do next. She has been absolutely patent interrupted on this. It's not part of the story. She organized. She's got no scene for this. She's got no emotion for this. She hasn't organized any this any of this at all. And now there's a massive gap, just a huge huge gap where where her brain is going over time. Well, it isn't actually. She's just stalled completely. And her brain is just going, I don't know what to do here. I haven't organized for this. Got no I haven't written apart for this bit here. Do I cry? No. Can't do that. What do I do? There's nothing that she can put in here. Which is a great great pattern interrupt there. Chase, what do you got on this one? She knows the price of a gun she never saw. She knows the price of a gun she never saw. That's all you need. That's literally all you need for this whole entire thing to be like, "Oh, okay. Yeah, she's guilty." So, memory just doesn't work like that. So, you have a little bit of self-demotion like, "I'm just telling you what he told me. This is like, oh, I'm just this I'm just the stenographer or whatever it's called in the court." The the person who does that little machine thing. I'm just the stenographer. And it's like, "Was my husband shot?" She says this, "Nobody's told me." She described the shot. She described the effing shot on tape. Like, like, I don't understand how this is like coexisting and these guys aren't jumping all over it. I admire both of these guys for not jumping all over it because they're just they're just like she's in the little trap. She's been in the trap for 10 minutes. They're just waiting to shut the door until she's way into the back of the back of the whole thing. But then we hear a couple more like uh God is my witness, children's life. I think there's a grandchildren's life that comes in here. >> Uh these are this is called co-signing from my world. I don't know what anybody else calls it. And Greg earlier you asked if there's a word for it. I think Philip C. Philip Houston was the first guy to come up with a word for that and he called it a mini confession >> uh- which I use uh pretty often. >> Y >> so the truth should show up by itself. It shouldn't have to have co-signers. The truth should have a good enough credit score. It doesn't it doesn't need cosigners. So that's it. So for you, flip the detail on any story that somebody tells you. If it's super rich and then it gets really thin, super detailed and super not, pay attention to that. People give detail where they feel safe and they give a lack of detail where they don't feel safe. So it's a vendor, a candidate, a babysitter that you're interviewing for your kids. Holy crap. Do it then. For sure. Greg, what do you got? >> Yeah, a few things here. Um what's interesting for me is watching her as you said Mark go looking for what she needs to say because she's had a learn behavior which means everything we see she's done a million times Scott you said that I mean she's done this over and over and over so much it becomes second nature that we always say a red flag is taking holy ground when a person takes holy ground and co-signer as you were just saying Chase but when they take holy ground the almighty they call on the name of the almighty they do this they do that that is a red flag and you know we look for clusters those are red flags why would you tell me honestly. Those kinds of things where people are declaring something that doesn't need to be declared. The other thing that's interesting is often when people are trying to admit guilt, they'll start creating another pile of things that they didn't do. And we hear some of that in here because what that means is I've told you I did this. Well, that's bad. But what if I didn't do this? The problem is you got to be pretty damn smart and pretty on the ball to come up with all the things you didn't do to outweigh the thing you did do. And what will happen is exactly what we see here. She starts parsing innocence at I didn't tell Fred to mail anything. Well, it has nothing to do with it. You knew he was mailing it. You called and and by the way, it's not that he went to mail something. Is that somebody's waiting there to kill him? And Chase, to your point, she admitted she knows the gun. She knows how much she paid. And he strangled him with something white. Well, you weren't even there. What the hell? How do you know all this? So, she's admitting she's piling stuff up over on the right in the negative side, and she's trying to throw out a scrap every now and then for the other. That behavior will not get her out of this. It probably has worked for her in the past because then she'll skew it in the favor of look at the things I didn't do and get out of it. People get away with this. My my only note here says, "Wonder how many times she's gotten away with this [ __ ] because it's just crazy." >> You know what? Most of it's probably people getting so effing exhausted. >> Yeah. They just go, "You can have it, honey. You can have it." >> It's not that they're fooled by anything. They're just like, "Oh my god, please stop." >> Yeah. And and you're probably right. Spray disabuses staff. She's one of those people who she's got any kind of authority, she takes advantage of it. But she's good at this 0 to 60 thing. It is good. These cops shut it off here. She's getting ready to go ramp up. And Mark, I think you're right. When when they cut it off, she didn't know where to go. She's tried to go back to something that's worked a thousand times. Doesn't work. So now she's going to build a pile of good stuff and a pile of bad stuff. Scott, what do you got? >> All right. She doesn't know what real grief and horror are. She doesn't know what those things are. So that that's all of course again performative. So, she's imitating what she thinks those things look like and she's doing it shitty, if I might add. And then when she's and she's actually, and we've talked about this on uh before a few minutes ago, she's preaching. She's mimicking what she's seen preachers do because she knows that's effective. Apparently, she's been to church a lot, but she she's just basically preaching. And she that part about her grandchild, children, and all that, that's from listening to old school preachers. That's why she brings all that stuff in. And she she's so used to be listened to when she does that. That's why she delivers that way. Again, it's because it's worked time and time and time. And like you guys were just saying, you just knocked out my whole thing. She's done that so many times, people just after a while, you just go, man, okay, whatever. You give up. And that's part of the tactic of that kind of story, that kind of approach to that. And it's I think it's working well for her. Except it's not working here. But I think it's it's obviously worked in the past over and over again. Is >> that what you're saying? >> He probably >> he bought a rifle >> from a guy at the value. What is it the name of the motel he was staying at? >> Place. Value place. >> Okay. He bought a rifle, a small caliber rifle, he said, from a guy there for 40 bucks. And he stuck it to the back of his head and pull the trigger >> and he said that Fred fell and hit the concrete. That's when he took the rope, put it around his NECK AND DRUG HIM OFF. >> You say where he got the rope from. >> No, I don't know. >> Without telling you too much, I don't want to tell you everything. Some of that's not matching up. I'm not saying it's not how it happened. I mean, it's not it doesn't sound >> I'm just telling you what he told me. >> Okay. >> I don't know what happened. I'm telling you all what he told me. >> Most of what he told you is right, but there's a little there's a little little small >> Was my husband shot? Nobody's told me. >> Well, that's part of our issue, >> huh? >> That's part of our issue. >> Oh my god. He That's what he told me. as God is my witness on my children's life, grandchildren's life. He said he came up behind him and he was right behind him and the gun was touching his back of his head or neck or whatever back there. >> Why did Fred go to the mailbox to begin with? I missed something back there. >> All I can figure out is I didn't know that he was going to mail the medical insurance. >> But you understand what I'm saying? If Tim, why is Tim there? How did he know? >> Because I told him, >> did you tell Fred to go mail something? No, I did not tell Fred to go mail anything. >> How was it? How was it going if you weren't going to send him out? You're just hoping he was going to go out? >> Well, I knew that we weren't going to be back May the 1st, >> right? >> And his medical insurance was due be before then and he wanted to sleep in the next morning and not have to get up too early. And that's what I took that he had mailed. That's why I had took that he had went down and mailed. And when I found the, like I said, the checkbook that had the two checks in it, like I said, I didn't know about the revenue check and this one for the insurance was dated and everything. >> Mhm. >> I'm I'm just >> I mean, and tell me, be quiet, Neil. I mean, that's fine, but I'm still hard finding hard for Tim just to pull up and take >> He said he didn't. He just He said he parked behind my behind. wherever he went. I just find it hard to believe that he went up there and it just so happened that Fred went to the >> Honey, I did tell him. >> Did I say the primary call, Sherry? The one you said was the primary call for Tim to know that Fred was leaving the house. >> Yes, sir. >> Now, are you clarifying that? Yes. >> Right. I just I'm not understanding everything now, but you if y'all clarify, >> did he suggest that you tell Fred to go to the mailbox or something to get him out of the house? >> Yes. >> Okay. >> Okay. That Yeah, that's what we're having a hard time understanding. So he said, "Um, >> get him go to get him go to the mailbox somehow." >> So then you asked him to go pay the bill. >> No, I asked him to go get the mail. >> Okay. >> Okay. You just didn't know he was mailing something? >> No, sir. I did not. >> Not until I found the checkbook with the 500 whatever amount of dollars it was for his medical insurance premium. So after you knew that Fred had been hurt, don't do you believe that he's been killed by Tim is when >> he said he told me he had killed him. >> Okay. So after he told you that he had killed him is when you went and started knocking on neighbors doors and asked him for help. >> I never left the house for anything until I went over to the neighbor's door and asked for help. >> But when you asked for help, you already knew that Fred was laying in the woods deceased. >> I didn't know that he was in the woods. He didn't kill. >> You knew that he had been killed. >> Yeah. >> Okay. And then you went for help back to him as though he was missing. >> But you knew it was down by the mailbox >> cuz that's why you had >> Yes. >> the neighbors go there >> and when he didn't find it and come back, you got in the car to go help him and make sure he found it. >> Mhm. >> So the going the going to the car and saying that you saw that the mailbox cues were missing. That's why you thought to go to the mailbox, it wasn't. It was because you already knew. >> Yes. >> That Tim was temp. >> Yes. Okay. But I didn't know that he, you know, I didn't I didn't if he was parked under. I didn't know that because he told me he parked well behind where our screened in porches is at. >> He had parked there at some point that night. >> Uh, Chase, what do you got? >> So, she just confessed to sending her husband to his death and then like I don't know 18 seconds later she's fighting about like running errands, right? No, I I asked him to get the mail. Why would you bleed for something that's really small? So, anytime you're listening to somebody, listen, what are they will what are they bleeding for in the middle of a conversation about something else. So, in in my estimation, the letter is the timestamp for me. So, insurance is probably due before May 1st, right? She knew they wouldn't be back. Whatever it is. So the denial it is just stuck in that spot right there. No sir, I did not. So it's full form. There's no contraction. So I did not is just a dressy way of saying it. So when everything collapses in a conversation with somebody else, people dis here's what people defend. It's the smallest true feeling that they have left and that's all they defend. It's the smallest thing that they have that feels true, especially after a collapse. So, what they're doing is like they're using technicalities to to preserve an identity at that point. So, find here's your goal if you're if you're a good interviewer. Find a technicality that somebody's willing to bleed for. And that's where the body's buried. That's where the the crap is, right at that spot. So, note those little distinctions that they uh that they keep correcting. I didn't say that. Here's what I said. Why did you feel the need to correct that? That's something that a person's willing to bleed for. Find those inconsistencies. Just don't be an [ __ ] If you're talking about like somebody who didn't go to Crispy Cream at the right time in the morning, that's not the that's not the time and place, right, Mark? What do you got? Uh yeah. So uh I I think you're right. She is in the cage. She's boxed in right now. And her hope is if she is polite and looks nice, they'll open the door and go, "Yeah, out you go. Sorry, I think we've actually got the wrong You're very polite." So, um thank you very much. Uh away you go. So, we get um a little bit of grooming going on and uh the politeness. Honey. Yes, sir. No, sir. Again, I think because she's going, "If I look good and I'm very nice and polite, they'll just let me go." No, that's not going to happen. Uh, ladies and gentlemen, uh, what's that mouse? What's that mouse in that film? >> I was going to say it, too. We said it before. >> Somebody little. Somebody little. >> Stuart Little. >> Stuart Little. Ladies and gentlemen, Stuart Little. Uh, Greg, what do you got on this one? >> Yeah. So, I know I'm going to catch when I hand it to Scott, he's going to tell me about being last again. But >> it's okay. I don't mind being last. This is the way things are. >> This is a learn behavior. That ramping up that 0 to 60 chaos and then that trying to to um gaslight and that doesn't work. Now, she's got a new way. She's going to incrementally admit the things that she has to admit. And you can see it. She doesn't know how to resist. She's putting up pressure trying to throw out things she's done well. But she's she first of all admits to telling Fred to go to the mailbox. Okay. Now you clearly have set this up. So she's going to admit it, but make them work for it. Every time to every time that they come up with a new data point, what they're trying to do with this rifle, with this liature, with all this is to get guilty knowledge. That's the reason they're not confirming it. Perfect. I would not say a thing because the minute you say it, it's no longer guilty knowledge. Now it's implanted knowledge. She doesn't understand where to lie and where to tell the truth. This is a good indicator. She's gotten away with this for some reason her whole life that she's thrown out this kind of stuff. She's trading guilt. Yeah, I did send him to it, but I didn't cause his death. I didn't kill him. Yeah, you did. So, what she doesn't understand is a slippery slope of being involved in collusion for murder is very different from saying, "I didn't do it. Somebody I know did it and I didn't anything to do with it." No, you're part of this whole thing. So, her trading guilt is she's giving away that she is an accomplice before the fact and that's what they actually charged her with and gave her 30 years in prison. She didn't admit that she sent him with and con concocted a reason, but she did admit to saying Tim's. First, she said, "I I told Fred to go to the mailbox." Then she said, "Well, I didn't cause him to go to the mailbox, but I did tell Tim it happened." And now she's admitting she sent him, but she didn't know he was mailing a check. This minor detail because she doesn't understand a true logical feed through in a story. And that's all we're seeing. So, if I were interrogating her, my brain is going, either you're profoundly stupid or you're trying to hide something a lot worse, which is it? Because people don't make this stupid a mistake very often and sit right in front of you baldfaced doing it. Scott, what do you got? >> This is no different than what I've been talking about before. It's all performative. It's the setup, the structure, all that. She's going right down the line on everything there. I would like to say this, though. I'll bet you she makes cornbread. Oh gosh. Not in prison. >> Good. >> Yeah. Not now, but I bet you up to that point, I bet turnip greens and cornbread. Holy smokes, man. I bet it was good, too. And eggs in the morning and bacon. She'd have it just right. >> I think that Yeah, >> that's cuz her husband was European style. I wouldn't risk it. >> That's right. So, he's used to it. Used to European style. >> Oh, English breakfast every day. >> Mark, what kind of animals you got over there? >> One. Stroop waffle. >> What kind of animals you got over there, Mark? What's running around out there? >> Got no animal. Well, there's ducks and there's geese down at the down at the lake. Um, >> stay away from the geese. They're mean. >> Yeah. Well, they're all got a whole bunch of trees around them so they don't wander up here onto the onto the lawns and and wreck havoc. Uh, but no other animals really. We got got hairs. If we get out there and >> Oh, man. >> That would be dinner. You're not Don't be doing that. >> We got uh we got deer. Got >> squirrels. >> Yeah. Less squirrels here than we have in Toronto. >> Yeah. >> What about raccoons? >> Less less raccoons. Less squirrels because there's predators. >> There's less garbage. >> Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. >> Yeah. And and lots of lovely birds. Uh hummingbirds still. Hummingbirds. >> Right time of the year. >> Wallow swifts. >> Bees. >> You need a beehive, man. I' I'd love a beehive. Beehives. Got to have a number of beehives out there. They pollinate the apples. Fantastic. >> You got to do it, man. You got to get your own. Get a beehive. Get a hive. >> But there's less animals around here. It's more orchards. This is in the center of the kind of industrial orchard area of uh of Ontario. >> But you got bee boxes in your place that >> Oh, yeah. Yeah. Yeah. >> Yeah. >> That's cool. >> I'm just >> I mean, and tell me, be quiet, Neil. I mean, that's fine, but I'm still find it hard for Tim just to pull up and take >> He said he didn't. He just He said he parked behind my behind >> wherever he went. I just find it hard to believe he went up there and it just so happened that Fred went to the >> Honey, I did tell him. >> Did I mean the primary call, Sher? The one you said was the primary call for Tim to know that Fred was leaving the house? >> Yes, sir. >> Now, are you clarifying that? Yes. Right. I just want to make sure not understanding everything now, but you if you all clarify. >> Did he suggest that you tell Fred to go to the mailbox or something to get him out of the house? >> Yes. >> Okay. >> Okay. That Yeah, that's what we're having a hard time understanding. So, he said, >> um, >> get him go get him go to the mailbox somehow. >> So, then you asked him to go pay the bill. >> No, I asked him to go get the mail. >> Okay. >> Okay. You just didn't know he was mailing something? >> No, sir. I did not. Okay. >> Not until I found the checkbook >> with the 500 whatever amount of dollars it was for his medical insurance premium. >> So after you knew that Fred had been hurt, >> don't do you believe that he's been killed by Tim is when >> he said he told me he had killed him. >> Okay. So after he told you that he had killed him is when you went and started knocking on neighbors doors and asked them for help. I never left the house for anything until I went over to the neighbor's door and asked for help. >> But when you asked for help, you already knew >> that Fred was laying in the woods deceased. >> I didn't know that he was in the woods. He didn't >> You knew that he did kill him. >> Yeah. >> Okay. And then you went for help acting as though he was missing. >> But you knew it was down by the mailbox >> cuz that's why you had >> Yes. >> the neighbors go there. >> And when he didn't find it and come back, you got in the car to go help him and make sure he found it. >> Mhm. M. So the going the going to the car and saying that you saw that the mailbox cues were missing. That's why you thought to go to the mailbox. It wasn't. It was because you already knew Yes. >> that Tim was down. >> Yes. >> But I didn't know that he you know I didn't I didn't if he was parked under I didn't know that because he told me he parked >> well >> behind where our screened in porches is at. >> He had parked there at some point that night. >> Well, this has been pretty interesting up to this point. Mark, how's it looking to you? >> Uh yeah. Um, we kind of a it's kind of um Vivian Lee doing Scarlett O'Hara. There's an element of of that. There's an element of of drama uh in there. There's an element of melodrama in there that I think she would like us to engage with. And if the melodrama is high enough, then she would be let go. Uh, but we see that she's able to switch it on and switch it off and she she's not in control of being able to play the drama throughout and keep it really real because there's nothing real about it. She, in my view, would have planned this, instigated this, and um that's the overriding memory in her head that she's trying to stay away from, and it's colliding with these stories that she's having to make up, and it it falls down. Uh Chase, what do you think? I'll be super short here. Uh I think you're right from your perspective. In her own mind, I think she's in a different narrative. And that narrative is Jessica Rabbit. Think about it. Think about it. Every element of her behavior goes to that. That is who she is in her story, in her head. She has all that uh power and control. She can lure anybody. She just slows down, calls people hunt. This is Jessica Rabbit. Uh I yield my time to the gentleman from Georgia. Yeah. What what I find funny here is we talked about improv versus acting. I think she's accustomed to improv for sure, but what I mean by improv is she's accustomed to other people interacting with her story. When she tells a story, they want to buy into what she's saying. And she probably uses drama. I Scott, we talk about transfer being unavailable. That screaming and crying was exactly that. The ability to remove yourself from scrutiny. And when they don't play her game, they don't play the improv she wants. She tries something else. she starts to gaslight. Well, that doesn't work either. If you got somebody in your life who does all of that, you should pay attention to that because all that volatility admission of this and then backward pedaling once that you they realize it didn't work. That's not healthy. I think what we see here is a person that she's the martyr. If you listen to the story, she's the martyr. She's the person who is wronged in this story even though she arranged and caused it to happen. That is covert narcissism almost always. Scott, what do you got? I really like this one because we see it's pretty much a setup and go situation. It's like you say, "Okay, and go." It's the same thing the whole time. If you'll notice, her voice tone doesn't change much at all. Her voice volume doesn't change much at all. Not a whole lot changes when she start when she gets going where everything's flipped on and she begins her act. And I think that's fascinating because that would let me know or I would I would think that either her hearing is a little bad or that's just the way she's used to being that loud all the time. There's been a house full of people there. Maybe she's from a lot of people. I don't know. But she's a little bit loud. So I would I would think there's either a hearing not a big one, but I don't think she she hears very well or there's a lot of people in the house. She has to be loud. A lot of little kids or something. So and again I stand by my thing. I think she would make some awesome cornbread, turnip greens. Good >> chicken pot pie. >> Oh man, >> very loud Dutch around. >> Chicken and dumplings. >> Yeah, very big big loud Dutch. >> Yeah, but I heard chicken and dumplings, man. I bet that would be >> South Carolina girl, so probably. >> Yeah. All right, fellas. Thanks another good and we'll see you next time. Heat. Heat.