Design Bid Build vs CMGC Which Project Delivery Method Wins

for owners [music] who haven't maybe used the CMGC delivery method before. It's a delivery method where the contractor [music] is kind of brought in during design rather than after, what does that process actually [music] look like from the moment a project is kind of scoped to the moment the contractor's at the table? Take us through it. [music] >> So, from a best practices perspective, what I tell owners is you want them at the table as soon as possible. [music] Don't wait till you've sorted out your rightway. Bring the contractor to the table because they can help you solve these [music] challenging issues. A lot of times you can reduce your right of way. >> When large infrastructure programs run over budget or fall behind schedule, which seems to happen all the time, most people point to the contract. But the [music] real problem often starts much earlier before a single bid is even submitted. The delivery method chosen at the outset can determine whether [music] a program succeeds or struggles. And yet many owners are still defaulting to traditional approaches that set up adversarial relationships from day one. Today's guest is Greg Hostedler, licensed professional engineer, executive VP, and he's in charge of strategic project delivery at Consor Engineers. Greg is a national leader in collaborative and innovative project delivery methods with deep experience [music] helping owners, consultants, and contractors deliver complex infrastructure programs faster at better value with higher quality. In this episode, we're going to talk [music] about how alternative contracting methods like CMGC actually work in practice, what it takes for owners to build the confidence [music] to adopt them, and what the pre-construction phase looks like when it's done right. If you're a project manager, owner's rep, or firm leader working on large infrastructure programs, [music] or if you've ever watched a project unravel and wondered where things went wrong, this conversation will give you a sharper lens for thinking about project delivery strategically and also give you [music] a clearer picture of what better outcomes can actually look like. Now, before I jump in, I do want to tell you about AEC PM Connect, a series of in-person events we've created at EMI for AEC project managers and the leaders who develop them. If you want to stay on top of PM trends, elevate [music] your team, and deliver stronger project results, these fullday events are built for you. We're coming to Kansas City this October. Learn more and register at AECpmconnect.com. I'm your host, Anthony Pisano, and this is the AEC Project Management Podcast. Let's jump in. >> All right, so now I'd like to welcome our guest for the show today, Greg. Welcome to the AEC Project Management Podcast. >> Thank you, Anthony. >> Excited to have you here, Greg. Maybe you could start by just walking um our viewers through kind of your career path from your early days in engineering to where you are today leading strategic project delivery at Consor and kind of what that what your responsibilities are today. >> Yeah, sure. So, so I had kind of an interesting trajectory for my career. First of all, I got a little bit of a late start. I started out uh in college studying business. So, quickly switched to civil engineering. So I didn't graduate until about 1996 at the age of 26. And uh I like to refer back to a quote from Charlie Tremendous Jones. He's a motivational speaker you may have heard of. But he said, "You'll be the same person in five years except for the people you meet in the books that you read." And I'm a firm believer in that because the gentleman that I met my senior year of college at University of Central Florida by the name of Ken Atkins put me on a trajectory to first of all land my first position as a professional engineer with another gentleman who was a who was uh in the military with him in a reserve unit. They worked together in a in a reserve unit. So David Reer had just started a small sort of boutique engineering firm that specialized in underwater bridge inspection and bridge design. His his partner was a designer and so I think I was employee number five. >> Wow. >> Uh started my career making very little money. In fact, I think I made less than I was making waiting tables initially. Uh, but it was it was worth it because it was it was a pretty cool, you know, when you're in school, they don't teach you about fridge inspection, right? So, >> right, >> it's not something you really hear about. >> That's interesting. I love that. I love that quote, by the way. That's a really cool quote. And >> I think that's so true, right? Like the more people you meet, the more the more exposure you get to different ideas, different people, the books. I mean, I read books all the time. I have teenagers. They were always making fun of me at home like, "Dad, you're always reading books. You're always reading books." And I tell him like, listen, for 20 bucks for a book, if you take one idea and you change your life, you change your career. Like just think like where can you get that? You know, >> exactly. >> It's crazy. But uh but that's interesting and I agree with you. I always say put yourself out there. The more people you meet, the more connections you make, the better. So So tell us about this strategic project delivery position. What does that entail? >> Yeah. So fast forward to today, right? So that that's my current role. So, you know, whereas I started out doing bridge inspection and design and everything bridge related, you know, back in in 2008, I actually took a position with Ocula County, um, in Florida, which is the home of the mouse, right? Disney Disney area. >> Yeah. And that is where I, you know, that's where I say meeting Ken Atkins in college put me on a trajectory because I I went back to work with Ken at Ocula County and he and I worked on some very innovative stuff there, which we're going to talk about later, >> so I won't get into the details now, but anyway, that's that set me on a new career trajectory, if you will, working on innovative and collaborative project delivery methods like CMGC, CM at Risk, Design Build. And so I sort of shifted from being purely technically focused on bridges to this more um program and project leadership role uh working with Ken across the country over the years and uh all the way up until today. So you know infrastructure I eventually went back to infrastructure engineers after working at Alcola County and eventually got back in touch with Ken again. And so from there again we've we've sort of developed into I I've evolved into this new role that you just referenced which is strategic project delivery. And what is that exactly? Um some people might ask well it's really all the things that we're doing with the new strategic project delivery institute which I can touch on later but really what it's about is is utilizing things like collaborative delivery like project bundling. a lot of the Federal Highway Administration's initiatives, everyday counts initiatives, ways to deliver projects faster, uh, more efficiently, and below budget. So, all of these things that we do um for for for that we did at OciOla County and are now doing for the Walapai tribe out in Arizona. Uh, this these are things that we've learned along the way. And it was tough. I when I get into Ocula County, it started out it was really tough because we didn't know what we were doing. uh but we do now and so you know really what I'm passionate about now in my role is coaching and mentoring the next generation of professionals um innovative bridge management solutions and then what I call strategic project delivery which I've already touched on you know that that's my current role at consort it's a national role um so I've shifted sort of the regional role from our central region office here in Oklahoma into this more national role and frankly it's been a lot of fun Yeah, that's great. I mean, I love the story about Ken because it just goes to show you how one contact, one experience, one conversation can really be a gamecher, life changer for someone and that's something for people to remember. And we're going to talk, of course, about project delivery today with Greg. But one thing I do just want to mention based on what he said and this is probably we could do a whole another episode on this one day but the idea of transitioning from a technical professional more into the project management realm and then even further into the leadership national realm going from a local to a national. I mean there's so much evolution there just in one career that I think a lot of engineers and technical professionals have to go through in this industry. A lot of people put them on a PM path and then a leadership path and it's not necessarily natural for us. So, it's interesting to hear that Greg had that path. Like I said, we're probably going to talk more about project delivery today, but I'm sure you'll hear through some of what he's talking about, some of the things that he learned along the way there as well. And so, so let's kind of dive in here, Greg. So, for owners who haven't maybe used the CMGC delivery method before, it's a delivery method where the contractor is kind of brought in during design rather than after. What does that process actually look like from the moment a project is kind of scoped to the moment the contractor's at the table? take us through it. >> Yeah, sure. So, so first of all, you hit the key idea here is early contractor involvement, right? So, from a best practices perspective, what I tell owners is you want them at the table as soon as possible. Don't delay it. Don't wait till you have design. Don't wait even till you have NEPA. Don't wait till you've sorted out your rightway. Bring the contractor to the table because they can help you solve these challenging issues. A lot of times you can reduce your right-of-way requirements. you can reduce your your environmental footprint um by bringing the contractor to the table early. So in an ideal world, I would bring the contractor in and we do uh we did this with the Walapai in Arizona, the Walifi tribe. We bring the contractor in even before finalizing the scope of the project and let them help us shape the scope uh to make sure it's right. A lot of times, you know, we we solved the wrong problems as as engineers. we'll find ourselves working on a a solution to a problem that wasn't even properly defined. And I'm sure you've seen that, Anthony. >> Yeah, for sure. For sure. And I love this idea because I practiced as a land development engineer doing a lot of subdivision work in upstate New York when farms were converting and different storm water processes. And it was always like too late. Like we would do the design, we would do the plans, and then we'd go to bid it out and the contractors would be like, "We can't build this. Like this isn't realistic, right?" And it's like if we only would have talked to them earlier, we would have saved everybody a lot of time and money and frustration. And so obviously that was a long time ago. Things are more advanced now. And things like these delivery processes are available to help with that. And I'll tell you another thing, we just worked with a company. We build a lot of these custom project management development programs at EMI and we worked with a company that had both construction and engineering, right? Or construction and design teams. And so it was very clear to us that we had to build two different PM training or development programs because they're kind of two different animals doing the design and doing the construction. But it was interesting in talking to the two teams understanding the relationship between the two, right? Because that design construction relationship can be so important and the lack of getting the input from construction early on can really make or break your project. So it's it's it's exciting to hear about that. Now, we're going to dive into some specific projects of yours. But before we go there, Greg, one more question I want to ask you just big picture here is when you look at some of these large infrastructure programs that you've worked with or just in general that might struggle with like cost overruns and delays, where do most of these problems originate and how can kind of the delivery processes we're talking about here factor in to that? >> Yeah. So, so first I want to if I may just back up very quickly to to our pre question just because I wanted to finish one more important component of that. >> So, in addition to, you know, bringing the contractor in early, so the the process itself is typically a two-part process, right? So, you you'll typically do an RFP, you'll have some type of written response, and then you'll do an interview. And the interview is critical for agencies that have never done this before. You want to make sure you're interviewing the team so you can get a sense of who you're going to be working with and make sure that those key players are at the interview. You know, this this whole process, this whole idea of CMGC and and the other collaborative delivery methods that are out there like progressive design build, the whole thing is built on trust. >> And so as as an owner, you want to hire a team you can trust. And the best way to do that is to limit the cost component of the selection. If if possible, don't have a cost element. Select your contractor just like you select your engineer based on qualifications. >> So, so with that I'll move >> no that's well before before you move on to that next question I want to ask you about this because this is this is interesting to me. >> So and I love that idea qualification based right then you know what you're getting in terms of the quality of the work that's going to be put out which is great. Yeah, >> you know, you see a lot of these publicly bid out projects that go with the low bidder and you see a lot of problems that stem from that, right? Because they kind of had to go with the lowest bidder and then that ends up manifesting itself in bad ways through lowquality work, etc. A company disappears or they can't, you know, finish the project. So, I think that's great. One thing I just want to ask you about before we go to that other question is a lot of times you you mentioned trust, which is critical. A lot of times in the engineering world, people don't trust contractors. And I'm not nothing against contractors. I think we need them. They're just as important as everybody else in the project. But I think that some design professionals may look like, yeah, they're trying to cut corners and they don't trust them. What would you say to that? like how would you how would you help designers and engineers feel more comfortable about this delivery process knowing that there are contractors that you can trust and work with just based on your experience? >> Sure. Yeah. I I think a lot of the that's a great question by the way. A lot of the trust issues frankly stem from a delivery method that f that frankly is somewhat outdated and and I guess the simplest way to say it is contractors are playing the game that we taught them to play. Uh the way we set the process up being low bid sets it up for these ideas of cutting corners and you know being streamlined like I I they're they've learned to play the game well, right? So, they know the low bid method. They know how to play the the game. They know how to nitpick a set of plans and find the problems. And they know how to figure out they have creative ways to make money on that >> through change orders and other things. So, we can't blame the contractors for that. They're just playing a game that we taught them to play, >> right? >> The beautiful thing about these other these collaborative methods is they have a seat at the table with us from day one ideally, right? And what I found is most of the contractors love it. The ones that actually do it, they they they would prefer to do this delivery method over any other. They they really like being at the table early. They like providing the input. They want to be a trusted advisor. They like that. I mean, human nature, people like to feel valued. They like to feel like they're part of a team. And you know, when the contractor gets two weeks to look look at a set of plans that the engineer engineered for 2 to 3 years and they have to throw a number together overnight basically, uh, you're not going to get a good result versus having them at the table from day one where they're they're literally designing with you. What I tell owners is this isn't the designer set of plans. This is the team set of plans. We've all engineered it together. I'm still stamping it at the end of the day, signing and sealing it, but the contractors provided input throughout the whole process. >> That's interesting. And I really like what you said about their interest in the collaboration piece of this, right? Their ability to be heard early on on a project really. So, so far I think two words that have stuck out to me are trust and collaboration when it comes to this delivery process, right? And if you're out there listening, you're a project manager, you're dipping your toe into this delivery process, you're not that familiar with it. Those are two things that I think you're going to want to really consider. So, so going back to that question with these infrastructure programs, Greg, that that tend to struggle with these cost overruns and delays and etc. Where do you see most of the problems originate and how can this delivery method kind of help with that? >> Yeah, absolutely. So, if we're being honest, one of the biggest factors is we're blowing budgets that aren't realistic. So that's that's a number one factor, right? So we've got outdated program level budget numbers and schedules that are outdated and often underestimated. So you're you're setting it up for failure from the get-go. Now having said that with traditional design build the single biggest factor is you know when you don't have the builder at the table uh who can't provide input on the construction budget schedule the planning the design the risk management process utility management environmental process and even right ofway >> and uh temporary construction easements needs like all of these things add costs when they're not properly managed and so That that to me is the big thing, right? Without the builder at the table, you're making a lot of guesses as an engineer. >> Yeah. >> And if you're making guesses that are costly to the project, you know, if you're if you're making assumptions that are either invalid or not not the best, then you're it's going to add cost to your project. >> You know, it's amazing that it took us this long to get here. And I'm just reflecting on my engineering career. You know, 20 years ago, I was working on projects where we would design a whole storm water roadway system for the municipality. We would get specs and plans and they'd ask us to do a construction cost estimate, which we would, and we would bid it out and we never asked the contractor to look at the cost estimate, right? So, it's like we're using like an old RS means manual and we're pulling some numbers together and we're coming up with this estimate and it's just like all these quote unquote like smart engineers and I'll make fun of myself because I was one of them, but like you know, nobody thought to actually call up a contractor and say, "Hey, we're doing an estimate for this. Would you mind taking a look at it?" Right? So, it's it's really, as much as I know a lot goes into this delivery process, at the at the basic core of it, it's really really just very intelligent and very smart, right? Just get the contractor involved earlier so there's no surprises later on when you get to a multi-million dollar project that you actually have to construct, right? So, so that being said, let's let's talk some projects and some of your experience. In 2008 when you started working on the Ocola County program CMGC was kind of new to the transportation industry with only a handful of agencies that had explored it at the time and you're now working with the Halapai Wapai say >> Halapai the tribe to strategically kind of deliver a diverse bundle of more than 30 projects with one team using CMGC. So, and this bundle includes like transportation projects, water and wastewater projects, planning projects, buildings, wreck facilities. What has changed with the industry and kind of what are some of the lessons that you've learned since 2008 that kind of are making it easier now to implement this delivery method and what are some things that maybe are the same? >> Yeah, sure. So, so first of all, Ocila County was a train wreck when we when we took the program over. It was it was one of the most failed programs probably in the nation at the time and numerous administrations had been fired for failure to deliver critical infrastructure projects which were primarily highway capacity highway and bridge capacity improvements. They had over a billion dollars of projects on the books and they were collecting impact fees to to pay for these projects. So they had issued bonds. They were using impact fees from developers to pay down the debt service and they were going to have to pay all that money back to the developers because they weren't delivering projects. So anyway, we took this program over. We called up the Hail Mary solution. We threw the whole program. We didn't call it CMGC at the time because the county didn't have that as a as a thing. So we used CM at Risk, but it was something between CM at Risk and CMGC that we ended up doing. We bundled projects together. We hired six different CM firms. We brought them into the county. We housed them in our offices and we delivered, you know, $350 million worth of work over a period of a period of about two years. It was politically toxic. It was a nightmare. It was the best and worst two years of my career because I learned a lot. Um, but I will tell you it was pulling that program off was was very challenging. Anytime you try something new, you're going to receive criticism, >> right? >> And we received it internally, externally, you name it. So the thing is we had no idea back then. We didn't know what we were doing. Um we didn't even know what was possible with these methods. All we knew was with the right team and we hired a really good team. We knew with the right team and a delivery method that was different than what had failed previously, we might have a chance. And so even even with our lack of understanding, we hired others that had that understanding that understood CM at risk. We hired a bunch of CMS that knew how to build vertical projects and they partnered with roadway construction firms to help us get this thing done. So, so to answer your question, fast forward now to, you know, that was back in 2008, 2010 time frame. Here we are in 2026, CMGC, progressive design build, construction manager at risk. These methods are being used all over the country, >> right, >> to deliver uh infrastructure projects and specifically transportation projects now, whereas back then it was basically Utah DOT and I think a couple agencies in Arizona. So now we have a lot of information. We know what the best practices are. We know what works. We've done a lot of research. Both Ken Atkins and I have done a lot of that research working with several major universities. So we know now what works. So the difference now is we still build really good teams, but we actually know what the best practices are and we're able to deploy them on these projects and programs around the country. So with the Walifi for example, we're able to deliver results that have never been seen before is one, we brought a great team in, and two, we're using project bundling, we're using CMGC, we're using value capture techniques, we're using all of these things that are proven now to help deliver great results. >> That's great. You know what's interesting to me about that is and you said something there that I think is is important is when you have a process or delivery method that's one thing and then you have a team right that implements it. You can't have one of those things that's good and one of those things that's bad right so if you have a great team and a crappy process it's probably not going to work out and if you have a great process and a crappy team it's probably not going to work out. And so that's I think a real good general rule of thumb for anything you do in your project delivery is that you could hire the best project manager in the world. I just dealt with this yesterday in a company that we're building a program for. I had one of the PMs on the line. I'm asking him, you know, what's what's not working with project management here? And he said, there's no we don't have a process. We don't have a toolkit. Like we don't have a strategy for our PMs. We're just saying congrats, you're a PM, go to work type of thing, right? And so again, just I think that's a good thing for people to remember is that if you're a PM out there listening, you got to build up your processes in your organization and make sure that they're really tight and then you got to hire and onboard, you know, good PMs and you can't really do one or the other. So I think that that's an important takeaway there. >> Sure. >> And you know, I think one other thing that's important to ask you about this, Greg, because I'm sure PMs listening are going to be thinking this, right? You have owners, let's say, that you're working with that are maybe riskaverse, right? or they're organizationally unfamiliar with an alternative contracting method like the GM uh sorry CMGC method that we're talking about here, right? How can you help them build up the confidence internally, whether it's themselves or organizationally to kind of commit to an approach like that? >> Sure. Yeah, it's that's another great question. We get it all the time. So I the first thing I would tell owners is look, you know, if you want if you're riskaverse, CMGC is the method for you or or progressive design, but one of these collaborative delivery methods that manages risk. You as an owner take the greatest risk when you put a set of a bid set out to the contracting community. And you know, one of the things as a designer that I do is on bid opening day, I just say a lot of prayers because I don't know what [laughter] I don't know what those bids are going to be. I mean, I'm not an estimator. >> I'm an engineer. So usually, you know, my best estimates if I get them right, they're lucky, right? >> But as an owner, if if you want to reduce your risk profile, and this is research based, this is not my opinion. Research shows that CMGC does the best job of managing risk for every party that's involved. And it removes uh and you also have a better opportunity to strategically determine who's going to own any risk that remains. So, while you're trying to retire and mitigate and do all of that, any risks that are left, you're managing those as a team, you're deciding who owns it and how is it going to get paid for if it comes to fruition. So, it's a much better process. Um, and like I said, if if you if you're really riskaverse, doing traditional low bid you don't want to do, >> right? That's interesting. Yeah. How do you how do you help risk averse owners? where you tell them that you've got something that's exactly perfect for what they're what they're looking for, right? In this in this and it's funny because you and I have already said it like at least five times today. It's it's getting when you get the contractor in involved earlier, you are derisking the process, right? Because they're going to tell you things that might happen that you are not aware of because that's not your expertise, right? It's like >> it's like anything in life, right? Like if your kid is going into an organic chemistry exam and you're just an engineer like at home doing your you can't help them. They got to get an organic chemistry professor to help them with their exam, right? So it's the same thing like you got to get people that know what they're doing and having the contractor involved can I can see how that would be really valuable as an owner and it would even make you feel more comfortable about the project and you're going to have much more reliable, you know, cost forecasting, right? Because you're going to know the contractor not only can probably tell you what it's going to cost to build it, but also what it's going to cost to maintain a project, let's say long term, for example. >> Yep. >> Transform your technical experts into impactful leaders with EMI's engineering leadership accelerator. [music] Tailored for AEC professionals, this program enhances communication, delegation, and decision-making [music] skills. Flexible, interactive, and designed to fit your team's schedule. Elevate your team's leadership capabilities today. Visit engineeringmanagementinstitute.org and click on corporate training. >> Absolutely. And that's why we like to let the contractor help scope the project because once we've got a good scope, even without preliminary design, they can come up with a reasonably good opinion of probable construction cost and we can use that as a baseline. And then what they're doing is as we're designing, they're costing, right? And they also typically have an independent cost estimator or an ICE who's doing that as well. And that's the that's the owner's reassurance that they're paying fair market value or better for their project. So a lot of owners are reluctant to shy they kind of shy away from the low bid thing because they don't know if they're getting good value. Um I can assure you that's [clears throat] generally that's not the best best way to get good value is through low bid. But it's it's difficult to get industry to to think differently, right? So you have to give you have to >> typically we recommend an independent cost estimator because they're estimating along with the contractor and they're you know then they they're negotiating to come to a guaranteed maximum price for the project that goes into the contract. >> Yeah, I love that. And and again, if you're a riskaverse owner, what's better than having the contractor do an estimate than an independent estimator do an estimate, right? you're really derisking the process at that point because you're getting a lot of good data points which is great and you know Greg you said this a couple times today about the idea of trying something new or a new process which can be very fearful of people and the one example that I would point to for all of our listeners is when COVID hit right before COVID hit every single civil engineering company in the country told us that they couldn't work remote right within 24 hours 90% of civil engineering companies were completely remote So, you know, I feel like sometimes we just have to kind of jump in the water and figure out how to swim type of thing, right? And if we can go remote overnight in this industry, we can certainly try some of these processes, which, oh, by the way, sound like they're better and lower risk than the stuff that we were using, quite frankly. So, that would be my analogy for that one. >> It's a good one. So, all right, we've talked a lot about this process and you've given us a lot of good info, but the the one thing I want to ask you is when this CMGC process works well. What is the relationship between the owner and the consultant and the contractor actually look like in practice? And also sometimes what might it look like if it's breaking down like what are some signals that the relationship is breaking down? >> Sure. Yeah. So, you know, in the most healthy teams that I've worked on in this process with with collaborative delivery, what it looks like is open and honest and very candid conversation, discussion. Uh the relationships have to be real. Like, we can't just get together and huddle up and pretend like everything's going well. Meanwhile, the project's going off the rails. >> Yeah. >> And we're we're just having happy meetings, but we're not we're not dealing with anything, right? So, the best teams that I've worked with, we do have trust. We intimately trust each other. We have our each other's backs. We have no desire to point fingers when things go south. The first thing we all think of when there's a problem is how do we fix it? >> That's it. We're not we're not thinking about who messed up. Now, later on, we might do a little bit of dissecting. Okay, say what could we do differently next time and how do we avoid that? But in the moment, we're just solving the problem. So these teams when when you do have trust and when everybody's pulling toward a common vision on the project, when everybody's driving toward the same result, it's really remarkable. And I can tell you it's a lot more fun. It's a lot more fun doing projects like this. >> Yeah. uh when it's not going well, the the minute you break trust, and I unfortunately this has happened to me once, and I I won't point out where or when, but it it has happened to me once and it's it's not good. Um when trust is violated, the whole process falls apart because without trust, you don't have collaboration. People are not going to collaborate if they don't trust each other. And without collaboration, you don't have innovation. Innovation is really the key to the whole collaborative delivery process because innovation is what drives, you know, better pricing. Innovation drives faster delivery. You know, without the trust, without the collaboration, there's no innovation and the game's over. So, in in order for for you to prove good results with any type of collaborative delivery, you have to be able to look back at the project and say, "We saved this amount of money. we saved this amount of time because we did these different things. We innovated as a team. >> That's great. You know, I think what Greg said there is so important in project management in general, which is if you're not willing to have the tough conversations, you're going to have a tough time managing projects, these infrastructure projects in our industry. Because the reality of it is is that you're dealing with a lot of different people, right? Including citizens, right? people that use roadways and properties, etc. And so, you're absolutely going to need to do that. And and for this delivery process that we're talking about, the CMGC, you absolutely have to do that within your own team because now you're dealing with the owner and the consultant and the contractor all together in a room. And if something goes wrong, you have to be willing to just have the tough conversation knowing that, yeah, it's going to be uncomfortable in the moment, but the project's going to be much better in the long term. And I would imagine, Greg, the more you have these conversations with your team, the more that that becomes the identity of the team. and they're very comfortable having them going forward or more comfortable I should say. >> That that's absolutely right Anthony and I'll tell you what it what it really takes is what we call a project leader and that's what the strategic project delivery institute is going to be about is is raising up training equipping what we call project leaders who can handle these types of programs that where we're using different methods of delivery because it takes leadership to do something new. Right. >> Yeah. And so, you know, it takes a dedicated project leader, ideally a a member or a staff person with the owner. They can also outsource that role, but it takes somebody who who can lead the team who can identify when there is a problem, when people are shutting down, when when the collaboration stops, they can draw it back out. They can deal with uh if tr if trust starts getting violated in any way, shape or form, they can bring the team back together. So it takes a dedicated project leader. >> That's really interesting. So one more question on this process and then I do want to hear about the institute but what does the preconstruction phase of a CMGC program look like when it's done right because I would imagine that that's a really important part of this process. >> Yeah. So so that's exactly right. So CMGC, right? CM is is basically the firm you're hiring to build the project is functioning as professional services or construction management. Mhm. >> the CM part of the G of the equation. And then you've got the GC, the general contractor part. That's the construction, right? And it's not it's not always just a a simple cutoff. We we end precon, we start construction. It's not always that simple because we're often working on multiple work packages where some might be in precon and some might be in construction. But the the reality is that pre-construction and the most simple way of describing it is simply strategic planning. You're strategically planning every aspect of the project such that when you get to construction, you're simply executing on a wellthoughtout plan. It's a critical thinking exercise. Um, we do intensive workshops and meetings. We do a two-day kickoff typically with the whole team. And when we leave that kickoff meeting, we've already got a really good start on the schedule, the budget, you know, we've hammered out, we fully defined the scope, we started the risk register. All of these things that are so critical for success of the project, we've already got a good head start on as a team. But the most fundamental thing we do in that two-day kickoff is build trust and and do the team building, the hard work of bringing the team together and getting them to work in such a way that we can drive good results. That's great. I love that. I mean, the kickoff meeting is always so critical. And I know we have a couple of clients that work on some mega projects and they the one term that they mentioned to me that I really like recently is an interactive project planning meeting where they bring their clients in maybe for a couple of days and they work through the schedule and the critical path and the risk register and all these things. And I thought that was such a great way to to describe it because having all of these different um stakeholders involved early on, right? setting the expectations which is very similar to your process where you have the contractor and the owner and the consultant or the the CM involved right from the beginning really helps people to set expectations get everybody on the same page and get out of the gate in the right way because with a projects of these of this magnitude you got to start from the beginning the right way because trying to backtrack is really difficult and it's really going to be hard so so it's good to hear you you mention that so so tell us about the institute I'm interested to hear about Yeah. So, the institute, well, I guess first thing I could say about it is there uh it's it's been a vision for several of us, including Ken Atkins, who I mentioned earlier, another gentleman by the name of Chris Wilson, who works for a firm called ICE, which is innovative innovative contracting and engineering is the name of that firm. But anyway, Chris Wilson, Ken Actton, and myself are the founders of this organization. And the the idea of it like I said started many many years ago and frankly we our vision was too small. Um you know back in 2012 I think when we first started talking about it the idea was for like a CMGC institute. We quickly realized that the magic is not CMGC. It's not progressive design build. It's not any particular delivery method. The real magic of it is a couple of things. One is early contractor involvement. So any method that allows me to collaborate with the builder during the the planning and design phase of the work is going to work great. I don't really care what we call it at the end of the day. So what we're really trying to do with the institute, frankly, is is it's for owners. It's for the contracting community. It's for engineers, planners. We're really trying to get owners to think more programmatically. And what I mean by that is like let's not wait until we're in the design phase or or you know about ready to go to construction until to figure out what delivery method we're going to use. Let's think about that when we first conceive of a project. Let's do that during you know we're starting to put our eight-year work plan together. Let's start thinking about how do we want to deliver these projects. Is there a potential to do bundling? do we want to use some innovative uh methods of delivery like CMGC or progressive design build and then start to go through that process early on go through what we call a project delivery selection matrix and there's a bunch of different tools that are out there but really what it comes down to is helping owners think more programmatically but then also providing a resource which would be SPDI to equip and prepare individuals to be able to take on these significant leadership roles of running these projects and programs. So the the the institute will ultimately be about training yes but more importantly we fully expect to be doing some type of certification eventually as well where when you go through our program and by the way we're partnering with the design build institute. >> Oh great we're >> meeting with them this month. >> What is the what is your institute's name? Can you mention it again? >> Sure. It's the strategic project delivery institute. Okay. >> Or PDI. Some people call it Speedy. >> Okay. >> We've got a board of directors, a very strong board of directors. We have an event later this year where we're going to be collaborating with probably 60 to 80 professionals, industry experts across the country to kind of put a little more meat on the bones of what the organization is going to be about in terms of our membership model and our revenue structure and all of that. Um, but we are, you know, we're a 501c3 organization and eventually after this year, this is still sort of a formative year, but once we get into 2027 and beyond, we will be hosting a variety of conferences and training opportunities, certification programs, etc. All of it geared toward helping to set owners up for success primarily, but also equipping contractors and engineers to work with owners to deliver exceptional results. >> That's awesome. Well, I'm excited to, you know, get to learn more about that as it unfolds because I definitely think that there is a need for it and I'm glad that you're kind of rolling up your sleeves um with your uh with your colleagues to get it done. I think it's really important. So Greg, I want to thank you so much for spending time with us today. Again, Greg Hostedler, he's a licensed professional engineer. He oversees strategic project delivery at Consor. He's obviously really interested in these alternate delivery methods where you can get the contractor involved early. He took us through some great examples today. We talked about the importance of trust and collaboration in the all of these methods. Um, and really it's about early interaction, which is ultimately going to lower the risk for all parties involved. and make for a better project long term. So, Greg, I want to thank you so much for spending some time with us here on the AECPM podcast. You really shared a lot of great stuff with us and I appreciate you taking the time. >> Thank you, Anthony. It's it's a pleasure to be here and I look forward to to interacting with you more and I think we've also got an opportunity to for a strategic alliance between your institute and and the strategic project delivery institute. >> Absolutely. And we have we run some great PM connect events. In fact, we have one coming up in Kansas City this fall and I'll be reaching out to you to see how we can spotlight your organization there as well. So, I appreciate all you're doing for the industry. Awesome. Thank you, Greg. Appreciate it. I hope you enjoyed my conversation with Greg. He has so much knowledge on such an important topic that we need to learn more about. I'm excited to see how he grows the institute. If you enjoyed the episode, please subscribe to our channel here. We put out videos like this on a weekly basis to help technical professionals become better project managers and leaders. I'll see you next week.