Desci Funding Working Group 23rd January 2024

so welcome everyone for the first call of 2024 um what is the mission about this uh this working group uh D funding working group is a forum for cross project dialogue we want to uh generate ideas and and and collaborate um we have also like a free marketing uh uh um concept to share with everyone um what could we do together um is um to capture 2% of the crypto market cap for the advancement of society through science um this I will explain you briefly now where this 2% for dii slogan comes from um basically if you look at the average uh expenditure of GDP or uh internationally it is 2% of GDP that is put into scientific research by nation states um and there has been a presentation uh about a year ago by Juan Benet who said that we are actually on the path of um reaching this 2% uh or reaching a market cap of the crypto um uh space that would allow if we put just a tiny fraction of this value into funding of scientific research we could reach the level of nation states and actually if we take this 2% which is the average spending you see that um and this depends on the sources where you do the math but um we basically could reach by just doubling the current uh market cap of the crypto space uh we could reach a funding that is matching the the funding levels of the US for science if you compare the different uh uh uh uh SC largest science funders worldwide uh 2% um means basically United States here is is at the top with something like um 1220 billion US dollar um and then it's followed by uh China and the European Union and then here's Germany as another as an individual small comparable comparing to the United States Nation uh it's quite less than that so 1220 billion US Dollars spent for science though has to be spent also wisely and we should understand how this can be done in a in an effective way uh in a in a way that is also constructive and that is complementary um and not redundant to what already is being spent worldwide right so this is why this working group is for we want to uh create new ideas educate each other uh and and also uh share this narrative and bring it out there because currently the crypto Protocols are not having embedded anything that necessarily automatically um allocates money to public goods it is uh something that we need to uh also make um and AD advertisement form so what we want to have is we want to build credibility uh we want to create the narratives uh to convince the blockchain space to create new ways of funding funding into science in a decentralized way that means that we are not an organization here that that this dictates how this works every individual organization every individual protocol will have to find their own approach but we can make recommendations um and so we don't want to stop at funding the status quo this would be actually very ineffective if we are just funding money back into the existing institutions we can now also fund our own infrastructure so this is why the call is not only for funders but it's specifically also for projects in the d space that are building their own tooling and we want that these are tools that will be used by um by decentralized science funders uh there is a group currently a telegram group that you you can join with this QR code here and the link has been widely shared this is the uh place where coordination will happen um where we will openly discuss uh agendas and we do research on different subgroups that have been formed in the last call and they are already established there in this channel so you can you can join and check it out um for today the agenda looks the following um and this is a proposal for this call and we can then see how this works in the next ones so we have two presentations uh the first by um zun bartling um who is a co-founder uh with me um he founded actually blockchain for Science and then I joined and he will speak about um funding in D Commons this is the name of the working group that we have established we just went ahead now because still there is little traction on the telegram group so we are having the first slot you know we captured uh we have also Joshua bate uh who who will speak briefly then about how this could be governed um and then we'll allow some time in the end uh which might be just 10 minutes uh uh to have an open discussions and individuals may give updates um and I also want to announce already the next agenda which is a call for submissions and also for networking uh before um you know we we start this uh so the next call um in roughly a month will then focus on social platforms for D funding and collaboration um and and from here I would suggest that we are having the general chat in the telegram group to come up with proposals for what should be the priorities for the upcoming months um and so what we have have here as a proposed structure is one call um one one part of the call focused on a rather longer presentation where we can curate also several participants uh contributing and then following that um we have some some open red discussion uh with that uh I stop my introduction I invite you to to write in the channel um in in the chat if there's any uh things that you want to share I will also review the notes document that I shared there in the chat um and so that we can come back to this in the end of the call and with this I I stop sharing and I invite Zuna to to start his presentation you're muted so thank you very much for the introduction and I'm going to like talk about the decentralized science comment so the comment in terms of like you all know creative comment so it's not the blockchain comment of all dii whatever so but we want to like create some guidelines and licenses um accordingly to the Creative Commons uh licenses so take comment in this like angle so in in dii we are in a unique position dii is Young so that blockchain and zence is named together it's like six to seven years old and this was weirdo idea in the beginning and now it's a real thing but it's still very young okay and what's different from other science Revolutions in the past and me and Martin and the OG's here we went through a few revolutions open science is popping up all the time there was like science 2.0 Web 2.0 for Science and like all these ideas and uh but what's what's what what the problem was in this they never controlled money right the flow of money so whatever the funders told scientists to do they did right right and if the NIH didn't tell them to to publish in things different from established journals scientists never did it right so but at the moment um the NIH told them to like uh not publish your results in close journals but Open Access journals all the Publishers and scientists mve from uh closed access journals to open access journ so just by the funer telling the scientists and the research in institutes some conditions so in for the way they should like behave as scientists they could really change the behavior of the scientist and in D side we are in a similar situation because in the first first science Revolution we have actually money that we can decide how how we distribute the money and what the rules are um that goes along with this money so it's because I know you all mean the market caps of the blockchains and then then we have research dolls that actually distributed money so in Web 2.0 there was never money involved like research gate or social network for science you still had the old science funders right so this is a very potential situation but what what D Community should definitely not do and not end up would be to distribute money to for example do to the very same old scientific conduct yeah this was this this would not be getting the point of dii right it would be an opportunity missed what's good like having research Dows rooting the money through like all institutes without telling them to change anything right and this would really miss out on a great opportunity and then the D Community should be like careful not to be hijacked by all stakeholders for example Publishers they have these nice lobbying guys that come and have a beer with you and it happened to us at one of the first blockchain for science conferences they are very very friendly people they basically want to influence you and like maybe there should be a role of journals in dii or they will come up with all these kind ideas they always do it they always have people that look into new fields and see what's going on there yeah and D should not be Solly driven by non-scientists it's good I mean there in this there's like fields for people who can like build tokens who can create Dows who can put up web pages who can do marketing who can build platforms so to say web stre platforms but it should be like there should be also be scientists involved yeah so it should be because they know how science is being done what the pain points of science are and so on So speaking of the pain points so what's wrong with science well it's tldr I mean all of you have some experiences opinions and everything thing but what's important here is to mention that there's not just one thing that is wrong in SS it's not if we fix peer review all Zs will be fine forever right it's not that we if we have open data we will like be all sharing data for good and there will be no data manipulations yeah it will like all things in science are connected yeah so we have to like see what we can actually change I mean some example what's swong and signs you all know this photoshopping of like Western blood results or that you can't like rely on like mice results because it's basically very biased I mean the scientists look biased at the results yeah all this like just like faking some Excel sheets by even Ivy leag professors and it was in the news in the last months in the last year they basically added some data did some P hacking and all this kind of I mean you all know this example the important thing here is these are just the things that we read about that end up as a newspaper article but this is just the tip of the iceberg everybody of us who expend some research knows that basically looking a little bit biased at data to say the least in the least offending manner is is is a common practice in science right so you can basically tell us your story about what you experience AR sign so we see a lot of potential to improve Pro stuff here so the D Community should or will develop guidelines and best best practices that will be followed by D side Science funders And scientists in the Futures to basically overcome this limitation of the current science practice and if I as I mentioned it is like we basically took the logo and the idea from the creative cman project so sort of licenses for d right or sing how would you design zence in research with a current technological means without Legacy cultures and without Legacy stakeholders just like from a blank P table there's no science culture nothing no peerreview how would you come up with a science culture right so I think this is a good way of thinking of it yeah and we have I mean there's a unique opportunity that we have at our hands here so how would we do that we don't know exactly but we have a lot of ideas and I'm going to show you some of our ideas and Visions first at all who should do this well it should be a community process right and we are in the blockchain space so it should be decentralized but as you all know even the most decentralized projects have to start somewhere centralized so Martin and me we basically put up a web page where we add a call to action button and you can please join the process to create the decentralized science coms you can fill in a questionnaire say how you want to contribute and I want to say this is just a very early phase so you can like change your dedication and commitment later on if you have the process more defined okay but just please join us and how should we do this we have some ideas obviously there should be a governance protocol earlier or later and V know the thing that we really know is that it dcum will be bold Brave and really revolutionary yeah to what end well to the betterment of humanity and to give a solid back home for all future dii funding maybe it's a 2% so that they can actually invest in science that is done in a good way and not in the old-fashioned broken science way and of course to really break with the old desence conduct and how should we like create this guidelines how should how should we be GL guided well I think the first most important thing is common sense reasoning and first principle right we don't need to have scientific studies to show that closed access Journal Publications are bad right you don't need to have scientific studies to show that if you Tim stamp your Excel sheets every day it's much harder to just like add some data at the end of a study right you don't need to be open with your data with your Excel sheets at all times but it's just harder if you want to fake the data I mean but still we should like be open for meta science or science about science and uh creative comment especially in the way of like how you how you distribute money among scientists right there are so many open questions and DS could be a great aggregation place a knowledge Hub of best practice and evidence-based scientific methods right so we could like give the future D funders some guidelines how to like decide on good ways how to actually distribute research money yeah obviously we're getting rid of unnecessary stakeholders and limitations for example why have Librarians why have Publishers right we can like solve the problem copy editing in another way right uh how will the guidelines be enforced maybe through D funders imagine a dark research do says I want to like fund a d Commons public good some IP reserved project this this money so all the applicants know that they have to like not have restricted patterns or have open patterns for example and so on or the community will like review other projects decide or say this is like aderes to the guideline or not and these are some sort of focus areas that you want to like come up with guidelines for example for grants for how dow research Dow should work on how you think about data sharing publication time stamping and so on and so forth how you invest in basic science Venture Capital how you deal with cide traditional sign centralized science right IP nfts oh okay so I you some examples of how these guys like just to have like just to have a rough idea right so how should like a guideline regarding Publications how could it look like well you obviously we will only support Open Access Publications and for D you just publish one copy on a decentralized service like ipfs with a persistent paid for for at least five years for example this could be a guideline right publish more often publish updates move away from one monolitic publication right have you every month have an update sort of tweet that you publish on ipfs on the progress of your research project with all your Tim stamp data and so on yeah for example this could be there should be a high reuse of text and figures and obviously it should all be C by right and maybe we can move away from text as a scientific feed and just like think of text as a medium to convey scientific ideas and restrict discussions about plagarism just to like to like copy of scientific ideas and not of copy of like figures or text right this would be a nice thing so we could like save a lot of efforts on like discussions about plagarism right and uh well how could it look like a guideline for Grants imagine you would just like publish or just like write a onepage grant yeah you can like use links to like publish material methods uh this would mean very little overhead very you need you would need to have some signal in that you are able to like do this project but it could be like your past project or some example work and you don't need to like we anything up in the 30 pages Grant application that will be rejected in 90% of the cases right so unnecessary work okay and then another idea would be why don't we like include Publications and Reporting how you spend your money in one system right the publication could be a report on how you spend the grand money so you don't have to like spend your time on like writing a report a publication all basically the same content right this would be I think could all be on chain time stamp right uh how how could we How could a guideline regarding the infrastructure look like so for example obviously you use not Bop chains but large public blockchains yeah store on decentralized Services don't use servers like in Web 2.0 use open source and so on how should translational research look like like develop standard maybe we can like create something like save uh agreement on future Equity this used to like invest in early stage like startup companies maybe we can like do some example contracts that work in like several legislation or like how to invest in like early stage applicable research maybe through an IP nft or we can like come up with guidelines how IP nfts should give like 20 send back to the funding agency as like a revenue stream to like fund more cure research come up with certain blah okay well there are a lot of ideas and I'm looking forward to have your ideas and your chairs so how do we do like d side to like do D in a d way it's cool how we deal with uh with Scientists because there's no D Institute yet right so basically we had like one idea would be to have like two different kind of doing science the green dway and maybe the gold dway so in green you still have can publish in all traditional science Publications but you still publish on decentralized services and so a scientist can like live in both worlds and slightly um trans translate to dii or you just like do gold dii where you basically Go full dii or another thing and we we like this approach best at the moment is we it's like like you know when there's like creative commment they have like CC buy noncommercial or some rights reserved right so we can be this could be like Lego building blocks of licenses to do like research in certain ways right so is decentralized science project public goods and the other thing that you can do that you need to do is like site the results there will be no commercialization no IP with all the advantages and disadvantages right there could be a decentralized science project that aderes to centralized science principles it's still allowed for scientists to publish in traditional journals and some IP can be like for like commercialization and so and so on we can like build basically building blocks for like okay you got the point so so I ask you to like join the decentralized comments on the web page and we we look especially for people who have like a bridge knowledge who know web3 blockchain and know how to build platform know how to do science have some La law experiences or maybe experiences with governance creating guidelines and so this will all be very valuable so thank you very much for your attention and this is the end of my talk I just leave the page up here okay thank you z um uh there's some some some comments I see uh in the chat I mean danif for Eric if you want to just voice them maybe yeah I would like to take that yeah hey I'll start yeah I put a comment um Justin there that a lot of the structure of science is there for relatively good reasons uh the lack of uh community control over possible science uh allows for people to move against Community uh such that like someone studying something in an armpit somewhere nobody has ever heard of doing something that most people have no idea about SC the scientific process crates its existence which is the purpose of the scientific process so lots of pure stuff in that vein I'm concerned about the morality of even decentralizing the manner in which it's conducted alternatively of course anything industrial or applied makes perfect sense I Y so Yan you you mentioned your you your worried that it like becomes too far out and every crackpot can come up with a crazy idea and there's no tunneling no selection compl complete inverse of that ideas are good things that's what science that what science as it currently is allows for that's what we want it to do decentralization um that takes away the crazy people because then there is less uh particular authorities but it's the group The Norm which govern F the creation ah interesting interesting take I want to oppose your opinion for example the centralize science May probably have ill effects like so to say legalizing or enabling astrology as a finance finan it field of science but it is like economy usual economy we don't want not to be riches we want not to be forced so uh science should be uh decentralized in my opinion I don't know how tol more details yeah science is already decentralized or centralized right it's decentralized through different institutes different working groups different nations so it's a it's a kind of question how do you find Define the centralization right and like taking bringing decentralization together with like um converging towards the mean uh it's yeah maybe these are like two different things like the structural decentralization and the uh yeah yeah I think um maybe the the risk is that uh this um y if the the the concept of the comments right or if you think of uh how currently for example like things like gitcoin structured these These are apparently mechanisms that are being tried out that are uh yeah that are that are kind of pushing a certain direction and actually taking the agency it seems away from the individual crazy person but putting it more more the mainstream stuff into the focus that that can be like shared easily on the internet and and social media right uh this is what gains traction and I think this is not actually what we want and we could rather see I just Shar this here there's an article about um from uh the Republic of of Science by Michel Pani who actually says that um the scientific process is one that is governed by the scientist themselves it shouldn't be influenced by any collectivist uh you know or even nation state approach um and I think the the hope would be more to to make use of the power of the internet of of having those different crackpots connect you know uh and and and do their research um in a way that is more permissionless than than having to go through all the Hoops to join in institution and sit in that building that you need to get your title and your degree and your diploma to to access yeah that's right so soat said yeah so these we carried away with the term decentralization ation somewhat right because it's like before it was like all blockchain for science and research now it's called dite just like defy right so it's uh so basically with decentralized signs we mean creating signs in the with Dows with tokens with IPS with ipfs and we don't worry so much about the social structural decentralization complely we should like add add a slide on this yeah Eric yeah look Eric needs to leave soon and he has a comment Eric go go for it yeah uh Thanks Martin sorry to derail the discussion this was a great one but I do have jum second um first off I I want to say I had not thought about the idea that licensing requirements may need to change to accommodate decentralized infrastructure and kind of norms in decentralized communities so that's a really interesting point and I would love to hear more discussion around it at some point um probably needs careful and uh wellth thought out deliberation um and then yeah I guess the one question that I would love to see answered on the telegram as I'm G to have to jump off is why blockchain why does it have to be blockchain what things can blockchain do that no Federated database can possibly do what things can ization due that the current academic system which is to a certain extent decentralized on a more granular level kind of community by Community uh can do so might an interesting artifact coming out of this group is we're still in the formation and vision stages why blockchain why decentralization um but with that being said I'm sorry I can't wait for the responses but I do have jum fine thanks we'll share the recording later so you answer this please and then and then we switch to Joshua because completely agree with Eric there's nothing that a centralized service with like and let's add with like some sort of like wallet to sign transactions yeah so Eric missed on that right so if you have a centralized server with some wallets that you can sign some statement and state changes to the system you don't need blockchain right and we completely on a technical level we agree with this but the whole blockchain and dii and like all this whole thing these are new narratives no new values no new cultures that are being created and we can use this movement and attach the D commment guidelines on it and use this Force to basically change something in science right and from a purely technological level you wouldn't need Bitcoin if there would be a central edity or or ethereum right but still it's it's a big field you have developers coming up with defi protocols with new platforms with nfts with sort of new ideas right so they the same they are changing defy we can finances we can change science right uh Martin I want to repeat what I told to stress my point you said that influence of the community is harmful it really can be harmful for example it can introduce astrology as a fin science but I think like who disagree with say that we should make people rich not we should make no poor rather than no Rich that astrology might become rich should not much bother us it should bother us but not much it's not our main purpose to prevent fake false science but to support legate V okay great yeah great thank you for that very quick response I'm sorry I'm GNA face yeah go for so you also brought this up in your presentation I'll be very brief but the fact that we have the power to control money with blockchain blockchains are not a thing they're a peer-to-peer digital Cash System so the fact that we can Min currency which was tried with the Federated system and Tred with centralize system before then and control that currency is a very very big thing you cannot do that with any any except okay great what yeah it was hard to understand but I think what you mention what you said is that the NA national science fund for examp they can't do these certain mechanism and things that that that we want to do or that we can do with blockchain correct we can we can print money no Federated or Central system can print money yeah that's it exactly that's a very simple primitive that's I think why the funding is the like the number one thing we can go for and that D mentioned um and then I'll hand over though to Joshua right just uh yeah what Z said also I think the funding uh the ability of this current movement that can can really decide how the money is allocated is unique and has never been there the open science movement has been co-opted uh by Publishers you know yeah um and it took decades until finally governments took action and said yeah you have to have everything open access this is like taxpayer funded research there's been a lot of lobbying before by Publishers to avoid this and now we can basically uh hopefully fund individuals that are going with this new paradigm you know and are going really um uh and are being empowered on the internet and this is why I think it's actually quite interesting to to really go into the fringes The Fringe Parts the long tail you know also with that said and there's great comments uh I I would like to invite Joshua now to share his screen and and speak and and then if there's some time in the end we can still have a discussion great thank you um before I show the the talk about the D funding governance I just want to say based on that um this concept of sort of like what is the optimal tokenomics for example or the optimal um centralized entity in this decentralized ecosystem come yanev I think your concern was uh what if we have the sort of the the um consensus of the masses leading those on the outside to not even get a space at the table I think that these concerns about um the sort of direction that the decentralized community will take science in is kind of unfounded because the whole point in the decentralized community is that any direction can be taken that the the technology itself allows anybody to like as John said mint their own currency or create their own governance techniques um create their own versions of a d Commons stand right and and this sort of like decentralized uh architecture that we're building is brand new especially in dii and so there will be moments where you have your gitcoin who basically will control The Narrative of public goods funding for however many years and maybe subsidiaries of gitcoin the gitcoin friends will also do the same thing and that's okay like they've done a service to the people that they've done a service to but those who are left on the outside at some point uh will be picked up by other public goods funding protocols this is the size of this space is Tiny in comparison to what it can be and probably will be and so when it grows it's going to be able to have many many directions it's going to be a multi-polar world it's going to be a plural world plurality thing is a big thing that a lot of a lot of the crypto crew uh sort of talk about all the time and just another thing that that book um move fast and break things uh which was written about the the way that Google and Facebook and Microsoft basically monopolized the tech industry because what they did is they saw this new technology and they just made some stuff they made some stuff that people used and it maybe it broke some things along the way but now they're the incumbents they're the monopolis right there is that cutthroat attitude to Tech and Tech Innovation is going to continue across the whole world including in the decentralized space and if truly decentralized participants like ourselves don't actually take the initiative to start creating these things then those that have the power to do so much quicker than us will do and they will break things and they will continue the Monopoly of these things so um I think that this this inertia in the space especially in dite is really quite damaging and I don't think that the concept of oh if we do a dite Commons it's going to put going to stop all these other people on the outside from coming in I think that would just be damaging to the movement in general that we could make a dii Commons too or a d uncommons or whatever you want right the idea is that just like put something in put something out there so people can get behind it and we can actually start a decentralized movement um on that I'm going to show you a potential governance protocol for what you could consider um the standards or the the commons so just briefly uh let me just fact let me just stop that so let me just briefly um The Commons document that sunu is mentioning um there's an aspect of it that was the gold and green standard of dii and that's the thing I'm particularly interested in which is sort of D standards um all Industries across the world have standards um it's important that we do too so that we can Inspire confidence in those looking from the outside in in particular in this group the funders right it's important that we have funders who know what could be considered a high quity project and why they might be considered a high quality project um and in order to do that we have to have some kind of framework of some kind of guidelines and the guidelines are sunka has a a great version of them um the the guidelines uh Sun if you can share your guidelines um at some point great these are just like very early ideas right so we we we are just starting the real serious attempt to have guidelines here right and I hope you sign up to the page yeah to the D comment page it was just like an early idea I'm going to share it yeah one second um Martin do you want a moment to respond to G's comment or is your no no no go ahead go go for it I I really sure I got it okay so um yeah here is just a very basic framework of what uh I'm working on this with a company called Q they're a governance blockchain an L2 EV ml2 and their entire fpace is to uh is to provide a blockchain specific for governance they have some really Unique Mechanics one's called the the root nodes which basically allows um it's a it's a real world entity you can actually elect your own root nodes they have the ICC the international Chamber of Commerce because this is primarily the font is not not seen form sorry yeah maybe you can can you go into presentation more or Zoom it out it's really hard to see is it okay uh yeah like that maybe you can I can see it give me one good it works you move the side yeah I remove the Side Bar I got you how about that's better that's better okay okay so basically it's a very simple Dow mechanism it's your typical uh proposer propos a vote your members vote on the vote and then it's ratified the key difference here is this concept of the root node and the root node is a real world kyc entity of which it's sort of like an arbitration Court think of it like claros but it's more centralized uh you have these root nodes which are paid a dividend by Q themselves it's their own sort of service um and they have the ICC for international Chamber of Commerce for their defi uh sort of root node intervention requirements they have a number of other sort of high quality what you could consider high quality uh people but the idea here is that you can fill the root node position with anything so you could fill the root node position with people from the NIH uh from from any of these organizations that you feel would be beneficial for the future of the adoption of dii they could actually be incentivized to become a root node but the core Point here is that you have uh a dow mechanism which is incredibly transparent it's cheap to use it's powerful it's optimized for governance and what the sort of suggestion I had here is that we would have a constitution uh to be clear this Dow governs a Constitution and the upholding of that Conti so here they've actually gone through and created the Constitution for us as a as a service like this is all created and real and the Constitution exists and it's a very simple Constitution it's it's written in English law and it's essentially saying that this da has the objective of upholding the Constitution and the members of the Dow have certain requirements and responsibilities to determine that Constitution and then uphold that Constitution the Constitution itself is the thing that is flexible and the Constitution is what we're the proxy here is the commons agreement right which is the guidelines of what is a good standard of dii and essentially what we have here um is an idea that there's a a a way to uh to grade a Project's ability to be a dite project like is are you giving it a mark based on a rubric of how decentralized is it how transparent is it rep is its reporting how is it publishing is it using is it using designnative tools when it's publishing is it using uh what blockchains are it's using is it using ethereum which is obviously highly decentralized and secure or is it using you know an L2 which has just one set of multisig you know these sorts of things which you can actually create in this guidelines document a rubric a scoring rubric and then you have now a document of which you can compare uh new projects against the eventual idea here is that the new projects can fill out a form or be assessed through this process and then at the end they are issued a score or an nft like gold green gray or 10 to one on the scale and this is something that now belongs to them and they can use that for putting on their website so we have the uh D funding working group gold standard snap they put on their website or when people come to us so protocol labs for example they say we have a$1 billion dollar fund we want to give to dber you're the expert so who should we give it to and you say well here's a list of projects that have been graded by our ecosystem now this is One S and Yan I'm sure you might dislike this this is one effort at deter like trying to put some labeling trying simplify and streamline the process so that people can actually interact with these decentralized protocols and trust them in an inherently trustless system but the idea of this is that the way that this is structured is that any number of guidelines can be issued so you could have the D Commons V1 and everybody can attest to that and then you can have the D uncommons V1 that somebody else could create and that would also be fine and what you're having here is a plurality of certifications to say is this project doing D in a manner that we agree with you can read the Constitution and determine which one of these certifications you think is most valid and then you can follow those ATT attestations from there so for me this is a process by which again the inertia is damning in my opinion and we have to sort of just push on past the inertia and the beauty of the decentralized system is that you can create governance mechanisms such that even if you make mistakes at the beginning they can be rectified by the community right there's no way in a decentralized system such as this for any one participant or any one group to maintain control in perpetuity and that's what this sort of governance flow is sorry I um I have a a number of suggestions about how this can be optimized and also suggestions about the uh the Constitution itself um and this is actually being done almost as a service by Q it's a great use case for them because it's a very powerful project that we're doing and it's it's based on legitimate needs um and so they're giving us our full support including writing the Constitution helping us to ratify it legally including helping us to recruit root nodes that we believe are actually valuable and also giving us grants as well to seed the treasury so that if uh somebody for example is working on this on a part-time basis they can actually receive an incentive for doing so and basically what we what I would like to see um because this is already done right I did this as a use case with them uh what I would like to see would be uh some kind of how do I say some kind of backing from this as a concept and us to work together as a working group in particular those that are interested in the funding uh standards in the standards aspect work together to determine some kind of constitution some kind of guidelines framework it could be various it could be multi-polar um and we actually also at D World which is the project I'm from we actually are also creating AI evaluators which will basically allow you to have a rubric of this is the guideline and then it will have form that a project who wants to have be assessed could fill out and there'll be an AI that essentially grades you according to its rubric and according to the answers and that would essentially streamline the process massively it will keep it transparent also because you could determine the inputs on both sides um but what this is is a way for humans to come in and govern this protocol but in a fair and transparent way you have essentially two core player key players on the on our side which is uh the projects coming in and then the Dow members I put it here as ethics but call it standards um the the the standards down members and then you have two tiers of membership you have the average member the general member and then you have the expert panel and the expert panel uh is most likely going to be a sort of incentivized position and then the other down members probably less so and even and in here in the Constitution I'll just find it quickly you have here the expert panel so uh members of the expert panel May and such things their responsibilities are as such here and the idea here is that you have a very clearly defined legal framework which is actually ratified by law and then you follow that and then you have this decentralized participation framework where you can have multiple different standards multiple different signals and at the end you issue this becomes an issuing authority not the issuing authority but an issuing authority uh for these ratings of which people can use to then fund just like gitcoin did the public goods funding thing first and now they monopolized the whole thing and we retroactively we can see that actually and wouldn't want to do that ourselves um but they did it and it's successful they've did they've given out you know over aund million in public goods funding to really genuinely good causes so for better or worse they did it and it worked and now they've funded a lot of public good stuff so if we actually want to fund science we have to have some of these Frameworks and we have to spin them up because you know we're a group of people who get together and have these ideas but like who's going to trust us as individuals well now you don't have to trust because you have an actual governance mechanism and so that's that's what I'm sort of bringing to this table I've been working on this for six months or so now I did actually nearly two years I've been trying to get this together but properly for six months um and this is the perfect group of people to get get involved with it so i' just like to hear everybody's thoughts on that if you if you're interested thank you very much sha anyone that wants to to comment on this first to come what on the on Joshua's uh any any ideas uh Joshua is your system for administrative decisions only or for publishing a particular article toal manuscript so the manuscript is is in itself not govern the manuscript changes to the manuscript or the Constitution that is governed by the da but what is actually within it is not not of concern question I'm asking about scientific manuscripts sent for a preview is your system also for a PR revie I don't think it it's you you will no it's it's really got nothing to do with the produce of science it's only to do with the governance of these badges as you might might to call them these certifications a great idea in sorry I'm in let's do it let's let's work at this group working group yeah yeah yeah cool cool yeah definitely yeah a question here how is this how is this different um yeah zuk go ahead I no okay so um so I is it can it also be mo be used to monitor science project whether I here to the badges or protocols or E6 yeah I mean I'm sure you could push into somewhere into the into the Constitution that the members of the expert panel would do a periodic review see if they're maintaining that that would be easily easy to do you could have a decaying nft so you issue the nft to the project and it decays over three months nice and and again AI as it is and we actually are developing a system for this and it's kind of I like this yeah that could be done on an automated basis you know Mar you you you raised your hand yes sir hi I hope you can hear me my internet connection is a little bad um yeah I I I really enjoyed your presentation Josh thanks for this um I was also in touch with Nemo of Q network uh working on some form of governance framework for d for quite a while now and I think uh this can pretty much play out as like a dow of Da concept where we can collectively govern the whole ecosystem to grow um this is in particular interesting for everything related to also uh the flow of funds so not only like giving away certificates but also collectively go govern between like different deide outs what we want to do when there's a certain amount of money raised so for example giving it away on the request for Grants and having like a due diligence scening process or kickstarting some of these quadratic funds uh together with gitcoin for example and you know there there are a variety of reasons why this can be applicable and useful for us so uh I would I would say let's definitely schedule another call for this because yeah what what I'm doing right now is like yeah again setting up the whole D Grands round on gitcoin with like a variety of other um people as well and what's missing right now is like a long-term uh compliant way to distribute those funds we are exploring with different uh free trade zones where we could possibly register a variety of um of Institutions as well to collectively govern the funds but yes still there's the governance in place right to make decisions so I think right now um the best thing that we could do is having this Dow of Dow governance framework where we can collectively own um you know the decision-making process and which direction we are growing the ecosystem while also staying legally compliant with like an alliance for example between different d d d entities um that actively participate in this process so uh these were like the two two things sents that I wanted to bring in here because this is like highly in line with what you just said and I'm looking forward to um actually getting hands on with this process in the next two to three weeks so there's some level of urgency um so yeah just wanted to bring this up again in this group here to be clear to that point Sorry I everyone's got the hand up but this is very important to be clear um I would not advocate any point for a centralized control or you centralized decentralized of a group control of the funds themselves um I would actually suggest that this process would allow a certification which would allow the funders to directly fund those that they think are most valid I think us as a collective holding the funds is a would be a big mistake put too much pressure on us and and that would open us up to some kind of attack of people being like these who are these guys like maybe just just to we have janif and then also Victor just one a comment on this I think how this can be structured is really that there is hopefully disagreement on on on many of these topics and therefore plurality of different path that can be taken D Commons for example can write up one type of standard recommendation that can be used by what Joshua proposed here and then there can be others that say well we don't agree with it we don't want to do it this way we change it and what will be very important is that all of these things are kind of recorded and within this ecosystem and maybe this working group so we we can see also how these different branches are are operating right directly add something to to Joshua's Point here okay and then Yan yeah yeah because I just wanted to say that you know whether or not we have like a system in place for example like in a framework of a B2B Dow to collectively decide in which direction we want to grow the ecosystem there will be like a handful of people who govern funds either with the token or with governmental money and you know they can pretty much decide if they want to spend the money on their own research projects and their own ecosystem or you know be open enough to support the newcomers of our ecosystem to thrive and you know personally I think this whole concept around ecosystem governance and B2B DS is pretty interesting when it comes to ecosystem governance in a way um but yeah this whole topic around yeah who's owning the funds where are they coming from for sure I know and I see some blockers there but you know this is what's happening anyways and I would love to see a future where instead of having like five stewards for you know a d side round on gitcoin for example raising you know hundreds of K uh for General ecosystem growth I think it can be like pretty much uh more useful to have it like in the hands of yeah the majority of the organizations and institutions that are already working in decentralized science and you know creating positive impact for society to change and building up the tools so that we can better secure all this stuff and for sure also the funding distribution mechanisms to make it a lot more democratic in a way so yeah thank you yeah great janif you you have been raising that yeah um so one I I I keep uh pointing out negatives or asking negatives but what sort of elements of defensibility of the system have been tried to be introduced here because I I've I've been posting in the chat anything which is too decentralizes generally a after some time that just makes it very easy to be taken over uh so I I like you say there's a capacity for the group to uh update the Constitution then that sounds to me like some sort of malicious or overdominant actor has the capacity to affect their constitution in a way which uh best supports themselves or perhaps less uh conspiratorially uh the Constitutional governance of the system that you're building Josh um it tends towards the most basic form which then becomes the one which is easiest to uh overtake uh purely by statistical movement yes so it's important to understand Schwarz C this also answers your question which I was typing out um this is essentially no different in many ways to a traditional Dow governance model it's just onchain governance but the two difficult the two very specific things that the Q blockchain offers here is these root nodes and the Constitution framework right so the Constitution framework will y as you say uh optimize for the simplest sort of um container of like the simplest way to to interpret the Constitution which is these members must abide by the Constitution by the supporting document sorry I've been misusing the word to supporting document which will be the guidelines the Constitution says that we must uphold the supporting uh must obey know OB obey the supporting document and the Constitution is set in stone and so there are guidelines yanev I'm very happy to send you the Constitution as it exists right now because it's quite it's simple and it's good it will laay a lot of your fears about the potential for governance attack because there are some fundamental things that the constitution could be built on which is that that would if it decided to eventually become if someone decided to try and uh attack the governance which would be a difficult process in itself but it could it is possible then the Constitution would essentially revert back to would would revert the decision because it would go against the fundamental of the Constitution which is to uphold the guidelines and there is and especially with also the root nodes here as well which is an actual real world kyc entity which does get arbitration um sort of say at the end of all of this should they need to the idea here is that you're not engaging the root noes for any decisions at all except those that are absolutely mandatory that such as for example potential governance attack the issuance of any nfts or anything like that would not be a root node decision I'll share with you the Constitution though G because I think it will lay some of your fears um and schw cater just again this is a pretty standard governance mechanism with a few caveats of the Constitution and the root nodes which are great um in my opinion for science in particular because people are a bit finicky and a bit more risk averse um but it's more the use case of it which is to and I planned this before I ever heard of Q this DCI ethics di which is to issue some kind of certification in a decentralized manner multiple potential certifications with multiple potential guidelines right um if through a certification that people can use as signaling when they engage in DSi because there's going to be a lot of crap in D there's going to be a lot of scams in D there's going to be a lot of science which is bad science or dangerous science and for people to have to not not be able to sift through that without any kind of standardization uh it's going to destroy the space's reputation right me yeah go ahead go ahead uh Joshua I have a note in the question a note I think the da is best to be done using Colony framework it's probably the only same framework without dependency H all you know what is dependency H or no dependency H is when it's hard to impossible to install software because of it dependencies to other software that is not handled properly and colony is without dependency H unlike other systems uh I'm working on a carbon accounting project I tried to do with different different DS DS and I'm almost succeeded with namely colony and question do you have existing Dow that can be used for this purpose as this uh C of this Constitution and framework so yes I have the Constitution I'm going to share it in the group chat no do you have an existing registered blockchain Network Dow that you can use for this project or it's only to appear uh this ethics now has actually been launched and it it has actually been launched and ratified by that Constitution however it's not active and it was done as an MVP at a conference okay so we would probably relaunch it with with different parameters or maybe not I don't know by the way this is not me building it I'm working through D World with q q is the company doing it they're very well capitalized they have a lot of reputation um they have great resources and I think that they are the kind of company that would actually help this sort of thing get off the ground and as much as philosophizing about it in group chats this is 100% necessary there has to be some kind of action and I think that they would be the kind of people that would put that into action because it's a use case for their blockchain right their own in have the your D in the chat q.org Josh Josh sorry do construction and I Faith Mas onone which is why it's almost but uh to that point of doing action what I'm here to do work at a working group what are next steps and then I do have a question about uh attestation so that can be offine the next steps for this would be in would be for myself sunka Martin and anybody else that's interested to really figure out out that guideline because the the governance framework the technicalities the Constitution everything is done all we need now is the supporting document which is the what is good dii the AI judge also we need to develop that but that's actually quite simple code um but what's the most difficult part is agreeing on a rubric of how to grade a project for a good D yeah all right awesome and to get involved with that that's what Z was talking about yeah join here yeah I posted the link so everybody is welcome to like on whatever level yeah Tech governance ideas so and yeah perfect thank you please share it please share it to other people yeah yeah so in the interest of time and because uh um some people have already dropped out of the call this has been a really nice hour and really great discussions thank you very much um I I close this here I invite you again uh to join the telegram uh where we can have follow-up discussions there's these different groups that have been established also if you want to um uh comment there on specifics uh we can take it from there and and there has been also a comment before on that telegram is really not the best place to collaborate and if we have things to follow up there's two ways how I see this can go last time we had some people already that were putting their names and this is all in the invite these documents are L um they have all like some people committed to different groups so one way to go obviously is that those people that are interested to take on a specific topic that they can start um creating um um subgroups chats invite people to share documents and so on this can be all Conn for the moment through the telegram group and then next month we have a call that I have mentioned in the beginning an open call for research basically on this topic of um uh collaborative online platforms there's already a lot of them existing and and this is a key for thisi I think that people can meet on the web and collaborate online on on projects I'd like to see ideally two or three of those um or someone that has done some more deep research on those different platforms that are existing on the on on the success and also the failures of those to present and that would be the the the main topic of next month call and also in the telegram group we can take it from there and discuss what are the lineups uh for the next uh next month to come um from there I guess we can also decide more how we can make sure that things are getting going getting like Joshua's idea now is getting traction and we moving on um and then uh maybe we can also decide better in the future what type of um you know results we want to present and Beyond Beyond you know pushing individual projects maybe we can uh Define this in the next weeks yeah with that said I I I close it um Victor anything quick I want to ask everybody an advice but because after from everybody I think it's not quick sorry I didn't I want to ask everybody for an advice but because several people my answer is not g so yeah time because let's do it next time um I feel also I I checked the channel I I've seen from the chat there was not really anyone else that um that that that wanted to really um like for example share a project update I think we have this topical course from now on and then uh if you if you really feel that we could should change the structure of this working group calls let me know as well you know we are really open to to have a very inclusive process but with that said I I stop here because also for those that couldn't join or had to leave it's unfair if we stay like half an hour too long now so it will be recorded we'll share the recording or at least the presentation part of the recording okay thank you very much and uh wish you a good evening or day thank you Martin yeah see you guys bye bye you bye