Decentralized Trust Graph Working Group Weekly Meeting - APAC Time Zone - 2026/08/20

All right. Howdy, folks. Hello, >> Seren and his usual omni omnipotent presence and uh Tom and I think we're going to have um a visit from Andy Higs, the executive director of Digital Identity New Zealand, uh who I talked to an hour ago and said he wanted to join the call and at least meet the other folks that are attending it. I said, "Well, at a minimum, we usually have Sankro Shen and here we also have Tom." So, welcome Tom. >> I go and uh and we'll uh uh Sakshan, you you were on this morning's meeting, right? I remember talking to you. Uh >> yes, I was. >> Yeah, exactly. Okay. So, I will uh I'm in the middle of reviewing a PR on the credential spec right now, but I'll switch back over to our meeting notes for today and share those. And uh actually, I'll wait a minute to see if if Andy is going to be joining us uh because I'd like to do introductions. uh if you know full screen if he's uh coming I'll give it one more minute. >> Which PR are you debuting on the credentials back? >> Uh it is the one that uh Oh jeez, now I have to I believe it's right here. I don't have to put it up on screen. >> No, no problem. It is um uh looks like PR18 uh that submitted by Alberto. Trust task align context thingy. >> Trust task context binding on publishing publish mechanisms. Yeah. >> Okay. >> Trust re. It's a >> it's a large one. It's the one that that uh Brendan was talking about in the call this morning >> and he's now reviewed it carefully which gives me confidence because there's a lot of detail in it. Um this this whole thing of you know the the complexity of of witness credentials you know and because it is the one early case we have of credentials needing to reference each other. Uh it's it's it's great cuz it's pulling out it's teasing out all the details that we have to have and uh >> I'm just glad to see Have you looked at it yet? >> I started looking at it early in my morning. It's still open on the tab. I'll take a look at it later. >> Yeah, good. Um I'm going to after this call I'm going to complete Brendan was just uh saying oh here he comes. Uh, very good. Uh, yeah. Uh, I I happy to post a link here. Um, Andy, uh, can you hear us? All right. I'm going to post a link here. >> Yes. Yes, I can. Drummond, I'm a bit late. I I just jumped into a cafe and then, of course, you know what New Zealand's like. I ran into a few people I knew and uh, hence I'm a bit late. So I want to make my introduction of Andy to uh Seran and Tom here by saying it's rare to meet someone who is so you know so deeply uh tied into a an ecosystem that you can't go to any place a ski resort a cafe a movie theater uh anything and not you know in in in line for a Ferg Burger in Queenstown he probably you know knew half a dozen people in that line. Yeah. Yeah. Well, I mean, add to your your life. >> That's New Zealand. That's why we love the um first person protocol. Yeah. We love the relational approach to identity. Yeah. It worked for us. >> Cool. Well, um we have a um as I as I told you, Andy, it's probably, you know, a relatively small group here today. Um, but one of the reasons I I I'm glad you could come is I want to introduce you to uh u at least uh uh two of the folks in our community uh that are longtime um members and and and contributors. Uh I call Seashan Seran the omnipotent because he shows up everywhere in all the work we're doing and and I I don't know how he does it except I do know that he's leveraging AI um agents in a in a powerful way. Um, and just have uh uh uh you know uh both Sangos and Tom meet Andy uh the force of nature who uh um guided my entire uh guided hosted u my entire tour in uh New Zealand and uh I just had another I think hour and a half Andy with you and and Lenny your uh assistant in that work and uh there's just tremendous potential down there. So um again I know everybody let's just do uh uh quick uh uh intros. Um Sakashad do you want to give a little little background uh first uh on on your involvement in trust? >> I would be happy to. My name is Hi Alik. Uh Drummond's been so excited talking about meeting you and going to New Zealand that he's been just totally over the moon since his return. So my name is Shankrashan. I'm based out of India. I've been uh contributing to various things infrastructure IP since probably the beginning when it all started and focused practically on all matters around governance, ecosystem governance. It's been that long is it? Oh my god. >> Seven years. >> Oh lord. And uh now uh the decentralized trust and uh stuff in between. I've also been contributing to the DIS uh being part of the sovereign network and and other things. >> Yeah, this man is so humble. He is yeah just has a 360deree view on everything we're doing and uh I deeply and but by the way uh um um Senoshen you want to put in the chat a link to your um his his substack is called the trust graph and uh and I point out to folks it was called the trust graph how long ago uh seashan >> it was pretty long ago I have zero idea why I stuck on that name but I Yes, it was meant to happen. >> Yeah. So like 5 years ago. So after we started the decentralized trust working group and I started getting Sankan's newsletter said, "Oh, it's called the trust graph." Yeah. So uh if you have a link to your uh to to the homepage for that Yeah. There it's uh I recommend it, Andy. Um yeah, those those are like like it's like Yoda um you know speaking about the whole whole space. So uh I recommend that. And uh Tom, you too have been uh in the space a a a very long time. You want to give uh uh share with Andy a little of your your background and perspective on all this? >> Uh sure. I started out with Phil Zimmerman working on the very first u commercial implementation of PGP where we were trying to get the web of trust to be u accepted by large corporations you know like Boeing and places like that didn't work out too well at that cycle as most people know. So I'm still waiting for the Holy Grail to be found again. Um, anything? Well, I'm also on a couple of committees like DIFF and AG agency and Quai. >> Oh, yeah. You're quite active on on choir or I've seen you there for a long time. >> Yes. I'm trying. And by the way, my focus uh I should be very clear is on personal AI, not on enterprise AI. So, I don't have much to do with most of what's going on in the standards. Um since I only deal with people and not abstract corporations. >> Yes. Um you know very very much appreciated. Uh and Tom you've also been active in Open Wallet Foundation too, right? >> Um I did for a while. I have to say that I got and I worked with diff a little bit on a verifiable presentation and I must say I was disappointed with how it worked out. Um I think that there is a lack of um I don't know support for protecting user data in both of those. So I kind of dropped out of those after I discovered that they weren't about to change their mind. >> Yeah. Yeah. >> I don't know if you're do is that New Zealand doing an MDO? >> Well, that's a great question for Andy. Andy, do you want to >> It would be I think really helpful for both Tom and Sankhan to for you to give sort of a at least a a short overview of your uh work and the and the purview of uh digital identity New Zealand and especially I talked today on our meeting uh about the uh trust credentials adoption uh working group that you had me uh talk to and if you want to explain what they're up to, where they're going, uh it would be really helpful. uh background. >> Maybe I should maybe I should add that my daughter went to the University of Chicago, so I'm kind of familiar with the place. >> Oh, that's very important data, Tom. That's a very important data data point. I was at um University of Otago for uh five years. It's did permanent damage to me. I don't know how your daughter got on, but >> Well, you guys have the most amazing dolphins down there. They're kind of like unlike any others. was saying, you know, flying through the waves watching these iridescent dolphins swimming through the water. It's she was with dolphins in the US and she said, "You guys got them beat hands down." So, >> yeah, we've got pretty good dolphins. Um I haven't shown Drum and the dolphins yet, but that that's definitely something we need to show him on another trip. We didn't take him on the water. Um but we did take him to the mountains and uh we did sauners on the lake and and we did a few other things. Um but apart from being a tour guide, yeah, I do run uh digital identity New Zealand and uh actually earlier this year I did a a study tour uh which was um you know supported by Tech New Zealand. So we're part of Tech New Zealand which is the industry community representatives. It's kind of a membership funded organization. We we also do conferences and other events, but you know, our revenues primary um membership levies. Uh we got about 2,000 members. A lot of corporates, all the big corporates here and government entities are actually members as well. So we sort of convene and facilitate um uh cross- sector, public, private, cross industry collaboration. And my my focus has been very much on SSI and um you know sort of fell fell in love with that whole idea about 10 years ago which was early on my digital identity journey and I've really only been on the journey for 10 years and conscious that you guys have been doing the heavy lifting for a lot longer than that but um and I know we're not there yet but I I every time I think we're not going to make it something happens which convinces me that we we will. And actually the last week was probably the highlight of my um identity career, having the man that wrote the book on SSI come to New Zealand and u putting in front of putting him in front of like 250 of my closest friends and colleagues and uh yeah they really uh did receive the messages very enthusiastically. We also had Dr. promote Varmmer from um coming in from India, Bangalore I think he was in um talking to us about a lot of the open protocols that he's been working on as part of the India stack. Uh so pleasure to meet you Sangashan are you are you where are you based these days? I am Kolkata but I'm I'm fairly familiar with uh what is doing out of networks for humanity and and the other groups that >> yeah well that to be honest a lot of people in the room said look we like this whole identity idea but we haven't figured out how we're going to you know make it work but when they heard doctor promote they were like the lights came on because they hadn't really um joined the dots between the platform kind of dominance sass and other kind of big tech platforms and you know what's happening with agentic systems and kind of going from platforms to protocols and the ability for humans and their agents to um you know uh discover you know negotiate and transact without having any platforms in the middle and he sort of leaprogged that and New Zealanders is uh you know we like to think we're pioneers but we're also fast followers but we we haven't we've sort of been like a possum in the headlights the last uh 10 20 years and we haven't built any of our own sovereign infrastructure we've just been technology receivers and you know my mission if I choose to accept it which I have is to help us kind of u build our own um technology based on global uh protocols so we're interoperable with the world and you know we have strong citizens and uh you know we can realize our potential because at the moment we're kind of um you know all a lot of the values being extracted by Australianowned banks and um you know foreign tech companies which actually is in nobody's interest uh not you know um and certainly not in the world's best interest. So um yeah, that conference was a bit of a um yeah, it was a it was a it was kind of a lightning rod moment for for our ecosystem and the conversations since have been very encouraging. I think people now get it and so the timing is is really good for us to put the right right ideas in front of them because the thing is we don't have state and federal. we only have state and so we're like a a country state, a nation state and uh we all pretty much agree on the problems. Um the the the the problem is we don't agree on the solutions. So my job is to try and you know help both public and private sector see the see the the right solutions so we're climbing the right mountain. And I I really do think that um VTC's VTN decentralized trust graph is the is the right mountain for us because you know the various communities like Marti Pacific um uh cities you know other communities can all have their cake and eat it too you know and so there is a bit of a a ground swell and now it's just about putting the right things in in in front of the community. We do have a live regulatory framework as well that's very um aligned to it called the um digital identity services trust framework. I don't think it's as advanced or sophistic was as sophisticated as city. There are some policy gaps but um but I think we had STI in the room as well. So Chris Bramwell spoke to us as well last week and that was very warmly received and there's a lot of interest from New Zealand to coming to the next city conference in Utah to to align with their their progress in this area as well. So yeah, I'm very um keen to uh ensure we you know we connect with with you folk and and and support what you're doing and and I think the opportunity with New Zealand is a as a very it's like we're like a petri dish or like a test lab. Yeah. where you could test some of your ideas. And I think a lot of the big tech companies have done that in the past because we basically have every color, creed, religion, you know, in one place in a in a in a kind of on a lio or, you know, like a a rubber raft in the middle of the Pacific. you know, everyone's having a nice time, but you know, we're our productivity and our um uh our kind of um trust is is in a really an all-time low. So, we we um people don't trust the government anymore. They don't um necessarily trust each other and um and we're getting skinned alive by by multinationals. So um hence our we're we're not growing and we're um yeah I I feel like this is this is a really to to me the opportunity as as promote described it because we're subscale is to unlock you know the potential of thousands of small businesses you know build building on you know sovereign infrastructure but we but we you know starting with the trust layer so that's probably enough for me. But hopefully that gives you a sense of where we're coming from. >> I should point out one uh thing that I did work on with Colin Wallace, by the way, was supporting us. You know him? >> Oh, yeah. He's my predecessor. Colin Colin very kindly handed over the keys to me. Yeah. >> Yeah. So, when he was running Canara, um he helped us generate the mobile authentication assurance standard. So, um, yeah, he's, uh, definitely been deeply involved in this stuff for many, many, many years. So, I really appreciated Colin and any help you gave him. And if you do go, >> you know, go to Puna Tiki, a little north of that, you know, there's some >> great places great places to stay, too. >> Yeah. No, it's it's great. Now Colin, he was a real soldier and we're really standing on his shoulders. He was very focused on the standards and the regulatory consultation. So now we've got all that in place. My job's more about the go to market and uh adoption which is why we've got this trusted credential adoption group which is trying to solve the two-sided marketplace problem and drive network effects through credentials. And that's why I'm quite interested in um verifiable trust um uh credentials because um you know anyone well any any kind of group can kind of start to issue them and and and the our regime is is a voluntary one so you know anyone can really issue credentials. It's a great way to get started. C D Andy, can you uh because I strongly agree with you that can you say a little bit more about the uh sort of the the work plan, the strategy that the the trusted credentials adoption group is uh is following that that you're the program you're shephering there. Yeah, we're very much focused on use cases at the moment and uh well that's just the only way to play place to focus and it's really um low complexity high value. So things like you know checking in checking into workplaces um or any reception um so that you could be a club you know so that sort of checkin use case which I think is one of your use cases but um things like proof of age but that that probably wouldn't you know that a proof of age is a legal requirement so I don't think um you know you'd have to have a um accredited credential which is another step under the trust framework to qualify there. Um, we've also got like P some payment and onboarding into bank use cases which again are accredited use cases. Um, and what else have we got in there? Oh, education. Education's a good one. Um, qualifications which I think you know a lot of the education ones could be um nonacredited uh credentials especially for school school IDs and um tertiaries um trades you know you could have your own verifiable trust communities. So yeah, those are some of the the use cases, but we we're looking to expand that and um we do um have a bit of a gap in our program around uh the the Mari communities uh and we're looking to try and um bridge that gap, you know, potentially using uh the first person uh cooperative um go to market as well around around um you know, crowdfunding. Although I've just had some push back on charging for namespaces, Drummond, because there's so many free namespaces out there, but I I think that can be we can resolve that. Um >> yeah, I I think we we can develop an approach that will work for that. >> Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. >> Yeah. Uh and andying uh >> the other one is um agentic use cases are coming up more and more like for example um >> we had some uh the folk at uh IID and we actually got a meeting tomorrow on this with your um >> man in Australia um Drummond's uh Williams Tim Williams. Yeah. But yeah, so IRID are getting a lot of um agentic um tax agents coming in to do tax returns and uh they currently can't can't accept them and uh so they want to try and solve that that problem. Um and so we're looking at this in terms of how um how his um solution can u help solve that. But you'd have to start setting up VTC's or a VT in that whole um maybe in the whole sort of accounting profession or t tax uh t tax industry. So um >> Yep. Yep. >> Yeah. >> I I just want to uh note to uh Sshan and Tom, you see what two weeks with Drummond does to someone like Andy is he's he's fluent in our in our acronyms, >> right? And uh I've been watching him carefully and he's been using VTC's and VTN's properly. Um I haven't heard him heard him say VTA, verifiable trust agent. >> VTA. No. Yeah. >> No, that's we all want our own VTA. Yeah, >> that's that's right. That's right. Had a great conversation about VTAs and first person circles uh earlier earlier today. So um yeah, that's that's fantastic, Andy. I I know we're we're keeping you from uh getting your I I suppose it's it's your is it your lunch or your dinner? >> It's uh it's lunch time here and you you said it was only like a short call, so I thought I'd try and kill two. >> No, no, no. That's that's totally fine. And again, uh it is it is a short uh a short call. >> No, no, I'm happy. I'm happy to listen in. I just um don't want my soup to get too cold. >> No, no, exactly. I want you to do that. So, um thank you. I wanted at least you know uh Sanker Shan and Tom to uh to get that background. Now um I I just note uh for you that all of the um calls this is not a requirement at Pro Linux Foundation or all of Trust IP, but for working groups that choose it um our Zoom calls are recorded automatically. And so, uh, the I I, you know, hopefully you got the notice when you first came on, but just what I wanted to say was that explanation you just gave, I'll be able to reference this call to anyone who said, you know, hey, you know, who is Andy? What? Give me the background. I'm going be able to say, hey, Andy gave a great explanation right there. So, we're going to uh we can reference that. Now um what um uh to to make maximum use of your meal and just give you a quick sense how do these meetings go? Andy was asking me so you know what what happens during uh these meetings. So, so the more you know, the more you can advise people there about how to engage because we'd love Andy and I were talking about we'd love now if we start having strong New Zealand, uh, Australia, Pacific, uh, and well, Apac, uh, participation, something Zechan's been waiting for for a while. Um, then this meeting will start to become, you know, more active, uh, you know, discussing the the topics that, um, APAC group wants to. But Andy, what I'll do is um I will show you right now what one of our meeting pages looks like. Um you can just you can stay on mute and eat your each your but I will I will give you a a sort of a a quick overview of how we structure our meetings and the topics that we covered on this morning's meeting. Uh again it's just an hour. Um the meetings are now so packed with with you know topics and and demos and presentations that we have a separate signal channel we use just to figure out okay what topics are being covered by what on each meeting and then as I explained to you Andy um that's for a weekly meeting the full full penary meeting of the whole working group um three of our seven task forces now run their own hourlong meetings um those currently are just in the uh Tuesday morning's my time. So, they're in the North America, Europe time frame. But I know that those groups have said, "Hey, if if we have Apac um you know, sufficient interest in Apac, they will start running um APAC calls as well." And and by the way, those three active task forces uh one of them is um the uh credential editors group. We have our most advanced specification is for the DTG credentials. Um the second one is the the zero knowledge proof uh you know quite technical but a critical topic for us and the third one is uh what we call the human trust experience uh group we call it that because it's not just about UI and UX it's about you know more deeply what what is actually necessary in the human experience of digital trust infrastructure that will engender trust and so it looks deeply at uh interaction patterns ceremonies Um, uh, yeah, just stuff that I think is going to be highly relevant to, um, many in your audience, particularly um, you know, uh, Mallerie or others who have, you know, have their own, you know, relationships and and and own, you know, relationship based um, um, social structures and trust structures that they want to turn around and say, "Hey, we want we want this to work for us our way." and just like fantastic. You'll love some of the people active in the htx group. Um, okay. So, what I'll do is I'll quickly share uh unless um Seran or Tom if there's anything else you particularly want to cover. I was just going to review with Andy, show him what we a typical meeting uh uh covers. I hit the update button. And uh so Andy, we use um uh the the two tools we use. >> So Dr. Drummond um just just to respond to that. Um >> Sure. >> My intention is is totally to get to to bring my um key key people along to these meetings. Um so the the trick is how do I position, you know, to get them to the first one? So it' be good to just pick a good first one. I'll send out a special invite just to so they can and I'll let you know who's joining because you know this is a good time for us like 1:00 on a Thursday it really works >> and I think I could get a few of the TCA group along. So what we could do is um as as I mentioned um so this this you know our main plenary meeting is weekly um we're going to have one more next week and then we're skipping a week because of the uh global digital collaboration conference in uh in uh Geneva. So uh we can I'd be happy to uh work with you to basically work up an invitation for next week's meeting which would be this exact same time slot. um uh you know your Thursday our our you know Wednesday evening in the US um we could do that >> down in Queenstown we're doing that crypto conference so it's it's the following week which would be perfect >> well the problem with the following week is that's GDC so I think we need to aim for the week after that >> but the good news about that is that would give me enough time to talk to I hope to be recruiting more folks in in in Geneva as well >> that's perfect because that's after my um executive council meeting so that's perfect so I get their commitment to supporting this work and then get >> Yes. And you could invite all of them to that meeting. Cool. >> In fact, with with advanced notice, um uh I'd like to get Daniela Barbosa and potentially Hart Montgomery, the executive director of LFD decentralized trust that we're under and the CTO uh could come to that meeting. You could meet them. They could meet all of you. um they are over the moon excited about you know decentralized trust graph and verifiable trust infrastructure there's you know they're just between us I hope we become their marquee project right the the one that is uh gets you know the most visibility ultimately the most adoption uh and and keep in mind all the blockchain projects that were at Hyperledger are now under LF decentralized trust um the the hyro um the the um Um, oh, remind me. Uh, why is the name Why am I slipping the name on the the blockchain behind Hiro? Um, Sankro Shan. Um, >> is that Hideera or >> Hideera? Thank you. Good. Good. You got it before. Yes. Hideera. The Hyro. >> I've been around for too long. Well, 10 years. >> You've done blockchain for a long time. Yeah. So all the blockchain stuff, but then new projects have come in and as I explained in in New Zealand, Andy, uh you know, we're we're tor seven years there before all the the u you know, the uh Agentic AI standards have shown up. And so we're we're sort of the folks already in a position to say, hey, we've been working on this problem. We can help you with your identity and trust problems. Yeah, you got lots of other things you're covering. So we're in a great position to do that. Um so, okay, good. We've got it down. I will note in the minutes that we will aim at uh that that's will be the September uh 9th meeting. Uh September 9th will be the the US day. September 10th will be the day for >> that Thursday for you. All right. Well, what I'll do right now >> September 10 for a fourcourt press. Yeah. With >> Yeah. and I'll get I'll get, you know, a good a good representation from New Zealand so we can hear it from the from the big >> Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Exactly. I'm actually adding my own personal note for that number 10 for uh Dins. Okay, perfect. Um, okay. So, I will uh quickly just uh you can keep eating your food. I will share my screen and you'll see uh what uh let's see. I think it's this one. Got the right window. So, move something out of the way. So, um we use uh our collaboration tools, Andy, that we use um you know that any Linux Foundation project can use. Uh well, most of them share the same tools. So, we use Discord for uh for uh chat. We switch over from Slack to Discord. We use Confluence as a wiki to to keep meeting notes and things like that. And then most the rest of our work happens on GitHub. Uh most of our discussions and our specifications and deliverables um are on GitHub. So they're all all standard tools. They're all, you know, fairly easy to use, although GitHub gets pretty deep. So this is what we call a meeting notes page. And we do one for every meeting. You can actually uh if I open this up over here, you can see that um there's a separate we have a a a folder for all the meeting notes page for a year and one you know one a week it gets to be a pretty long list. Then we uh uh consolidate that at the end of the year start a new one. Anyway, so this was the meeting notes page for today. Uh we have some standard this is boilerplate stuff that tells new new folks about meeting times and where to find the Zoom links. This is our attendance for this morning. This is uh the attendance I just stuck in for us here today. Then we always start the meetings with the antitrust policy notice uh which is very important you know for standards work and uh and then we have new member introductions. I put the notes on the conversation we were just having right here because they're really all about uh that we um provide time for general announcements each time. This is a very long list. Um we actually prepopulate this uh so we don't take a lot of time during the meeting but it's an opportunity for everyone when they come together once a week to say hey um you know some notice of a conference or uh a happening that uh others want to be aware of and then we get into our regular schedule um and it basically falls into two parts. We do task force reports um and and we have six active task forces. This first one risk assessment harms is is asynchronous now. it did its work early on and now it just advises the others. Um but not every task force reports out every time. It depends on the this as it happens. Our credentials task force is very active right now. We have a separate um editor's meeting and you can see all the notes from that all the links. Uh that one's a really dense one. So don't don't um feel like that's representative. Uh second one on trust protocols. I explain to you all of these VTAs. All of what they do is trust tasks and so all the standard credential exchange but other services and and and you know value ad you know things like payments um uh verifi the next task force VDS verifiable data structures uh we talked about that data sharing uh using that separate task force for agent names um that's uh led by Marcus Abadello and I you have you met Marcus yet uh Andrew did you meet him in any of the uh I don't think he was in the US on your tour. Yeah, that that's fine. Um, and then uh the Oops, last one here is the ZKP Oops, just close on the screen. The ZKP uh uh task force. They're doing a really good job. They're just about a month old now and uh they're they're hitting on all cylinders and uh they also have a separate separate meeting. And then lastly, our uh human trust experience task force. I have a couple screenshots from their report. They're going to add another link to that. So after we do the task forces, we have what are called special topics. Usually the second half of the meeting, and it's often one thing. It might be a demo or a deep dive into a particular uh subject. In this particular uh thing, we actually squeezed in four special topics, kept them all a little bit shorter. Guess what number one was? uh me reporting on everyone just was super interested what happened in New Zealand. I told him, "Guys, stay away from that crazy Andy Higs guy." So anyway, I did that. >> Yeah. No, no, I'm serious. Uh >> feel free to use my name in vain. All I care about is that we get the job done. >> Yeah. No, no, no. I was I was hyping it all. I shared uh my uh also my uh uh podcast with with the SEU folks in in Wellington. And then we had a special uh topic on a new uh proposed delegation credential. Super important for uh all the delegation use cases. I've got to add some more notes there. And then lastly uh or no, the third one was preparation for uh uh global digital collaboration. We have a bunch of sessions there, a couple meaty topics. And then finally we added one more uh at the very end uh there's a new uh paper from Singapore um group in Singapore um about um uh uh designing agent IDs and and it was felt we need to produce a paper responding to that and we got I I need to put in a note we have someone uh a team a sub team forming to do that. So that's a and then and then and then we just wrap up. So it's a very packed hour every week. Now the meeting that we would set up uh the AP pack that this is what we try and cover you know in in a in a you know a mature meeting what we'll do for the for the uh meeting on the on the what do we say the 9th is we will I'll work with you to prepare an agenda for that and we'll figure out what what's the best way to structure meeting to introduce it to your uh uh you know you your your team your crowd your your your cohort Yeah, I think the more we can work together, especially on the on the papers that I put in front of the council and then agendas for that meeting, the more structured the better because if there has been one criticism of me, it's like we need to be more structured, but like it's hard to be structured when you don't know what what you're doing. So, you know, that's where we can really benefit from your um your um structured approach to all of these >> things. Well, we're we're happy to uh Yeah. So we have uh we actually have three co-chairs of the overall group. U myself um a woman named Nikki Hickman, a super veteran of the industry based in London or outside London and u and then Martina Copandinos who's based in Zurich. Um and uh so we we you know sort of share those duties and then each of the um task forces has uh they all have co-chairs, some of them have trichairs. So we spread out the work that way. Anyway, I will work with you on uh we'll set up the agenda for that meeting and uh yeah, and this this is uh just that's a quick overview of how you know what we try and cover. Now, the task force meetings are then much more focused on the the work. Most task forces are um in the process of developing a spec or a specific deliverable um and and they go through a a process to do that using GitHub. Um, but that's how all standards work goes. So, there's nothing special about that. Uh, any any any questions I can answer about the process, Andy? >> Uh, no, no, that that all sounds good. I'm going to have to jump now because I've got a I've got a meeting in three minutes. But, um, just a quick question for Sanka Shan. Uh, because what I've been trying to do is, um, keep Drummond in the loop on my coms with Dr. promote because I obviously in India you've got ADHA um and I was just interested in your perspective on um these this work and this approach and how it um either comp complements or conflicts with ADHA in terms of uh future of identity from a decentralized perspective and you know jurisdictions like India or Asia or any you know pe one I jurisdictions where they have a very kind of centralized um you know uh control of the economy um and society. I think one of the things Sadhar has done is update the spec to make it more EC oriented that allows us to uh explore more of the DTG work that eventually goes in. One of the challenges obviously in India is because of the scale at which Aadhaar and similar uh infrastructure runs. Uh the change the pace of change is slow >> but it also allows us to kind of work through some of the uh not so edge cases and do that. One of I think what the the biggest positive in the last two years has been the spec change that allows Aadhaar to be much more VC like than what it was which was predominantly a QR based car and which is backed by a unique number. So I see that there is a possibility of adopting at least some of the foundational parts of what is being developed. Would we see it like how we have seen it in Utah? I don't think so. I think that's going that Utah is kind of an outlier in terms of adoption through reducation. >> Okay. No, no. Well, just it's we I think we can all learn from from each other, but I think New Zealand's more aligned to Utah on the on the ID front, but probably more aligned to India on the payments and the data exchange front and the marketplace creation. So, you know, it's the cake and eat it eat it too. That's what we want. you know, we want want the best of both worlds. Yeah. Um so hopefully um yeah, I love the fact that um and India's very very hot right now in New Zealand. We have a big um expat population here and Modi's just been here and we've just signed the free trade agreement. So we're definitely keen to find ways to uh work work across uh the two two markets and you know we've been trying to position ourselves as a good test market for India because you got the scale and we've got you know we've got some good good um use cases and communities you can test things with. >> All right. Hey, thanks Drummond. Um, look forward to uh continuing the planning uh over over online. >> Fantastic. Excellent. Andy, glad you could come. >> Great to meet you, Sashan. Yeah. >> Give my best to the the team down there. >> Yeah. Well, there great to meet you, Tom. Give my regards to your daughter. So, we've got Otago in the blood. It never leaves you. See you. >> Fantastic. Awesome. >> See you. >> Excellent. See you. All right. Well, there was the uh uh the dynamo of Andy Higs. Imagine um you know you know running the New Zealand uh um uh gauntlet with and that's not the right term enjoying New Zealand with him. It was just an amazing set of meetings that literally did not seem other than the weekend in New in in uh uh in Queenstown. Although even then we ended out with two meetings that he arranged there with folks that turned out to be really key key folks in the ecosystem. And uh I was like wow this guy is super connected and he's super motivated. He really wants to see uh uh them and us all be successful with this. So we have gained a great new ally there. Um and a number of his allies are uh um yeah and I as I said in the meeting this morning um he's also because a lifelong New Zealander been dealing with this in a number of contexts he's very savvy about Maui uh as an indigenous peoples and how to work with them and the fact that they have to drive it themselves. Um, and that's actually their favorite thing about verifiable trust infrastructures. They can have their own uh VTCs and VTN or VTNS if they want, however they want to do it. And uh and they can be sovereign. Uh that's that's why the the presentation that I shared the link uh this morning, I'll put it in um uh one more time just in case anyone, you know, wants uh is called the sovereign stack. That's that's why they wanted me to call it the sovereign stack. Um and and why it resonated down there. So it's uh yeah that's the reason I was gung-ho and I am still gung-ho about uh having uh made that trip. Uh, by the way, thank you to James Monahand and and Nick Ris admission um my former Evern um uh cohort and co colleagues because they were the ones James gave the keynote last year and they were the ones who recommended Andy to have me come down uh and uh and I don't even think they knew how how much it would take off. So, um that's that's all I really have for today. Um, I don't know about you guys, but I I don't think I have any more bandwidth to try and tackle anything. Is there any anything Seran that you or Tom wanted to talk about um uh else in in in today's meeting? >> Not from my side. I'm good. >> Cool. Cool. I hope franken this you know gives you hope that in fact there will be uh we'll finally get you know an APAC uh uh contingent uh you know spun up and working on this. >> I prefer these times they work better for me. >> Excellent. Well this would be great Tom because uh I I did not know about uh uh well the New Zealand connection. I also didn't know this the first time I've learned uh that >> something to do with Canara at 1.2 too, didn't you? >> Oh, yeah. Yeah, I did. I did in the early days, but I didn't know you worked with Phil Zimmerman. Um, I've never met him in person, >> but >> Oh, yeah. I worked with him directly oneonone. >> That's amaz You don't I think you know how much we refer to his PGP web of trust, you know. >> Yeah. uh you know which is still what the Linux kernel is using and and and what they want us now to essentially enhance with the decentralized trust graph. So um I still refer to Phil and and the PGP web of trust every presentation that I do. It's interesting note when I was at uh Jen, I actually got to have a a a an hourlong call with Phil because he was in a position where he was wanting to change jobs and he knew the siso at Jen Digital who asked my boss to, you know, talk to Phil. Well, my boss felt that he didn't have the background to do it, so he asked me. And I'm like, you want me to talk to I mean, I could talk to him, but you and it turned out we had a great conversation about dits. >> Oh, but Phil is such an easygoing guy. I mean, he's a great fellow. >> I that was exactly the sense I had. I just totally enjoyed that conversation and uh I would have loved to uh I I you know, I would have loved to have worked out uh you know, he would have been part of our team, but um I think in the end we couldn't afford him. Um he's uh he's amazing. But great to know that you you work from you you you go back um that that's that's the real start of all this stuff. That's fantastic. All right. Well, uh >> in that case, gentlemen, um I'm going to uh here in Seattle. It's late August. You know, weekend ago, I was skiing in Queenstown. Now I'm going swimming. It's a nice hot day here in Seattle. not sit too hot, but anyway. >> Excellent. >> Oh, great. >> Yeah. Excellent. I appreciate you both being here and uh look forward to um having u you know, more meetings in this time slot. We will do this again next week. Andy might have a couple folks. Uh oh, no, that's right. He can't come next week. Uh anyway, we'll we'll see who can come next week. Uh but just as I mentioned this morning, we will be skipping the week after because that's GDC and we're just going to go meeting free that week. >> Okay. I did. Bye. >> Thank you both very much and uh take care.