Debian.net Team BoF

Thank you. Uh welcome everybody to the Debian project board. We plan to run a little bit shorter than scheduled. >> Oh, sorry, Stefano. It won't go It won't cut. >> It won't cut? >> Ah. >> Right. Now we're talking. Um so, we expect this talk to be a little bit short. If I don't think we've got enough to discuss to fill the 40-minute slot, so we can probably all go to the key signing session that's downstairs after we do the triple block here. Um we would like to explain the Debian project team. >> Yeah, well, um let me explain what we are going to do where we are. No, but we have Stefano here and myself and Kyle but that's probably Um the the Debian project mainly is what we're discussing because it's not traditionally it's been about the the dynamic aspect of that. But we addressed the hosting side of it because historically DDs have hosted a a lot of services. Some of them have become quite important and crucial to the project. Um but they host the things themselves and they pay for it themselves and uh along the years DDs have been funding some of this but in the last couple of years they've got one more work so they decided now let's get um account services to Ocean and Iceland and a few others and providers and we're uh the DD needs uh the internet service. We have a DD service today and administer and also there's some master key as well so if someone disappears, there is a possibility that you can access back to the system and uh Did I leave something off the team? >> Yes, the opposite happened last year. That happened. When I look at the minutes from last year, I see we were that plans to extend the admin team. I don't think that happened. Uh we also did a census last year, which we have no results but we said we should. So, we have been a little bit less in the last year. But, that's also because things have been quiet. There haven't been very many requests. >> Yeah, just noticed just looked at the last month's bill. So, we're up from around what was it? 102 euros to 6 euros last year to about 152 euros just about in the last 50 euros up. Not that much, but it's at least services have been added and I think actually prices in general went up a little bit as well. So, it's a combination of both. And since this is the last year, my ideal is if you have any suggestions or complaints, put your hand up anytime and we'll get to the mic field and you can speak up. So, what you know what we do is getting one question. What you know big part of our work is keeping this hosting up and administrating the creation of the machine. But, we also want to do some common work to help Um I'll cover the needs that's needed for these services I think. So, how about that we suggested that it be done now that we might do we should try to get the I think first grade at home and the morality and that could be best that if we need the differences using a free backup that we need to do that. And the performance is something like that before I think. Not that much. Um but I think this is such a nice to have to make it better to have the in the next year that we require. I would like to do this next next year to get that. Um well that is something that we can do but it could be difficult to have. And for daily necessities we're also looking at that uh um verification of first grade because uh for some services daily backups is just too much. Like if you look at the metrics that we have, it's in the hundreds of gigabytes. So, every day when auto post grace backup backs up this huge database it's hours of the server operating running a big scene compressing that thing and it is extremely efficient. So, um and also again the storing of that uh might be a little bit risky so um there is this package called Barman in the media which seems to be automating a lot of it. I can confirm anything but it's mighty dangerous. Um for daily necessities we can use that for daily backup and and it's I would take that easier than that couple of coffees. So, I know there is a technical problem but uh um um also we need to start to see how it goes. It begins with Mike. We begin with Mike's allocation. >> Uh okay. When did you start that? >> I I don't think my system will be able to cope there. >> That's all right. >> Okay. >> That's great. >> Hello. >> Oh, yes. >> Um so, I was just saying that the you guys have a dedicated deal with the first two goals. Is that to meet to solve Is there stuff that you would like >> We can do that. >> Do you need the service within the oceans Do you need to buy new servers for these two goals? Is it something that you can reduce that deal because they just want to listen to what that guy has to Um and and the last one from feedback on that. >> I don't think it's either to be able to sponsor this and that your side. I guess I don't think it's zero. Um ideally, hosting providers should sponsor us because most hosting providers make lots of money out of Debian, so they can give a little back. Um but you know the cost of my things for Debian is like nothing to pay this, so it's not like it's a huge burden or problem, but um sponsors are welcome and they can certainly get in touch with you if you want us to help. Um you definitely mentioned that the open stack didn't really work out. At what point were you looking for We talked to different sponsors, but there was different problems with each scenario, but the idea was to go like a few racks to our servers and run a Debian testing center. If they wanted to do that something big like relatively big like the after three goals or do some large scale testing, we could set up a bunch of VMs and just run it, or we could host stuff like this on there. Um but it just doesn't work out, but it doesn't mean that it couldn't work out in the future, so if uh if someone [snorts] has lots of either server and space or servers or money or something to contribute then we'd appreciate it. like to re- re- re- that idea again. So, So, yes, it's something that's really good, but still good. And we we have volunteers which willing to work on that. Like you go to this team to do the open stack training is quite eager, but we just need the capacity. >> Dennis, we need a mic for Nico, please. >> Um I would also say that when people request a VM I usually push them to use a smaller VM than they initially asked. Um most of the time that works out. Some of them run over time. I know that the forum has been under attack in the AI scraping world we live in now. Um and they keep getting bigger and bigger VMs and still scraping the traffic. Attach the cable. Attach the cable. >> But yes, in in Nico's question, but before he answers it, I wanted to re-ask one of the question. What can people who are citizens with us do? I think just keep your service maintained like um let's say this particular Let us know so that we can shut down the VM. Um if you can stay more or less up to date with your latest citizen of Debian, that's really the issue. If you struggle, let us know and then we can help as well. We're all Debian security team and um we're happy to We we rather help than not helping and let something get behind in our security issues and things like that. So, yeah, it's a general sense, but >> That'd be also good if you have great success. >> Uh I actually have a silly question that I think is connected to the topic quite a lot. So, um but you just mentioned the private deals and uh in the Debian of netspace, somebody we are setting up with Debian and Um but it would still be interesting probably in the sense that Debian can use workers from everywhere. Uh It It's in Debian.net, it's not in Debian.org thing. Which leads to a question I was asking. How's [snorts] the relationship between Debian.net and Debian.org? I understand that posting something in Debian.org is a heavy weight commitment for Debian and it makes sense not to worry and stay with social networking. But I wonder if there is like a like transition plan. Like a system starts at Debian.net and it becomes Debian.org at some point. The Debian hosting wants to rely on different social master instance. So if there's some kind of transition plan like that or for monitoring there's the Debian services list which is dormant but can be used to reach all people maintaining all services in in Debian.org things where there can be some overlap of that can be had because it could be it can something where you can reach people posting any kind of services but the community doesn't have to be fully fully uh And for the question So I just have an example of a service going from Debian.net to Debian.org. The reimbursement that system that we mostly used to handle Debian claims but also other conference expenses. We spun up on a Debian.net VM because we wanted it promised and provisioning new things with TSA that takes some thinking and time. Uh and we are now in the process of moving that across to Debian.org and a VM has been created. The code should move in the next week so we can do it in time for the Debian 25th anniversary. Um so if if you started your service and when it's in your own self-created Debian.net domain on our hosting or not, um if it's something that you can switch the TSA has value for Debian in the future, you can move to Debian.org. >> Also, TSA's quite a limited scope of what Debian wants to do going forward. They they focus on core Debian and services that's infrastructure that's needed to to to run the Debian community. So, um some of the Debian.net services might not be that pretty really. That's what So, what I'm driving at there is that closer to the TSA it it doesn't really need to be it doesn't really need actually to be that is in Debian. Ideally it would, but >> It doesn't. >> It needs to be kind of it it needs to be managed within the like And we need to And if you if it's not packaged in Debian, it needs to be easy to build from source and provide security updates and things. Like something like that is difficult, but the the idea that security the if it's well manageable, but if you look at some of the stuff we have here at see you getting getting uh I don't see you getting uh migrating it totally. Even if you like people uh if you want to download it and there's something in uh I should have Debian.org or Debian.net and the reality is something Debian.net can be just as valuable and useful. >> Can you all hear the stream now? >> Right. Uh if if if translation to that all things one of two parts. It's the same and the hosting not that can be designed with that in mind. So, if you want to imagine it going to debian.org or then why don't you start building? So, we can host it in a similar way so you start having Django or use that in practice and that that kind of easy and when when you go to debian.net in that way you already know the transition to the org is not dramatic. Yeah. >> I In the beginning I had a plan of wanting to use DSA puppet for debian.net machines to make that as easy as possible. We never did that though. >> [snorts] >> It's It's also complicated. >> The the the DSA puppet is is complicated. I just looked at it briefly a while ago because I wanted to help um I'll change the Apache config so that we can do HTTP/2 and I was like what is going I don't I don't understand so [laughter] I didn't so which is also interesting because there's another transition from debian.net to the to debian.org which is admins. So, this could be debian.net can be a place to train new DSA members. >> That was my hope too if we were using the puppet. But maybe we can still get there. Yeah. At the At the moment we are not providing completely unmanaged um VMs because we never really figured out what our management would look like. It's hard to choose a configuration management system when there are five of them and they've all got problems. Um >> And often the people who implement the service wants to use their own configuration management system as well. But we did consider having a light touch to it like at least configuring mail and you know basics that you you working in any VM, Um but >> And at this point, I think if we did it, probably wouldn't be puppets unless a new team member joins and makes that happen. It'd probably be something what Yeah, we have we can get going faster. >> You still had a third question or did did you cover it? >> Well, last year, can we still twist your arm? Last year we were Last year we were supposed to add you to an admin team. >> [laughter] >> Meh. >> Uh so, uh you've mentioned you are going to like you guys are going to plan to expand the admin team. Is there any criteria to actually be met like like there's some like a hard limitations to be one of the admin team? >> I would say it's mostly trust. So, it's going to be um Do we know you? Have we worked with you? It's >> be a DD, I guess. >> Yeah, but these aren't great answers, I know, but it's the It's It's how this is really going to work. Um Yeah, I don't have better answer than that. >> Yeah, but also if you're interested, let us know either way and um ping us on on RC and um you never know, there might be a piece of work that pops up that your skill set might align to perfectly like uh uh and let us know what your skill set is. Maybe there's something on our wish list or um one of the users of the services wish list that uh we could make work and uh there's always there's always space for some collaboration somewhere. >> And the way to build trust is come and help us get started with I don't know some configuration management and >> Help us play with those grease backups. >> Yeah. Anything else? Would someone like to do a debian.net census for next year? Should we wait till after Trixie is released and ask when do you plan to upgrade to Trixie? >> That sounds like a good idea. >> [laughter] >> Enrico. >> Uh when making a debian.net census, I would recommend including a debian.org census. >> Ooh. Ooh. >> In the sense that there's also the people maintaining all sorts of things on debian.org that are not that known. Like search.debian.org. Does anyone know what that is? It exists. >> What does it do by the way? >> Uh search engine on debian.org pages. >> To search the website. >> Uh it's it's most I mean there's not a lot to do, but there's not a lot of people who do. There and it has space for growth. Um integration with single sign-ons. Uh there's a Django package that isn't packaged that I developed for nm.debian.org and I use it on contributors.debian.org which evolved for debusine. Uh Uh I wouldn't mind that being extracted from debusine into a Django single sign-on that works for salsa recently. Um building infrastructure like a Django uh module with the Debian website layout or um that that people or Django or something else that that people can plug in uh and get the UI. I made it uh I rebuilt the Debian website layout on Bootstrap. Uh for an m.debian.org uh uh uh it's a bit more getting that bit a bit common and if it's a library that that we can build on it then it means the web team updates the layout and the CSS of all sort of uh services get updated. Uh I'd be interested in these sort of things to make life easier to to build services in Debian. >> Yeah, it might be nice to have a page where we can say these are stuff that we do or that we know works so that if people do implement new services they don't have to reinvent another wheel somewhere else. They can reuse components that's been uh already been developed and used uh >> And share maintenance of it. >> Yeah, exactly. Um so yeah, and do you have a line for that? Might be good to set up a page like that. Uh Yeah. >> Well, we have about 20 minutes. Should we go and play key signing? >> [laughter] >> Good. Uh thanks everyone for coming and for your contributions. Um See you again in a year but hopefully you hear from us before then. And if you uh if you host a service you'll hear from us um about the census in probably a bit over a month. I hope that uh I hope that in a month after DebConf we'll be at at the point where Trixie is more or less either released or releasable. So, uh I guess nothing is stopping us from upgrade grading and testing stuff anyway. So, yeah. Um be in touch and uh thank you.