Debate: Programme for Government – An Economy Fit for the Future - 08 September 2026

All agreed. >> We are all agreed. The next item of business is the debate on motion 1070 in the name of Steven Flynn on program for government and economy fit for the future. Members wishing to speak should press the request to speak buttons now. I call Steven Flynn to speak to and move motion 1070. 12 minutes when you're ready. Cabinet Secretary mic on. >> Yeah. Thank you very much, presiding officer. And from the outset, let me be clear with Parliament. In fact, let me be unambiguous and emphatic. This government believes in sustainable economic growth and we intend to deliver it. And this parliament and the public who sent us here to represent them will welcome that focus. A focus that runs right through the heart of our program for government. Because without growth, we cannot fund the services that the public rely upon. But with it, we can innovate, we can develop, and most important of all, we can create jobs and opportunity right here in Scotland. Now, presiding officer, that alone is a prize that is too great to ignore. And to achieve it, we start with solid foundations. Because members will be all too familiar with the fact that since 2007, GDP per person has grown faster in Scotland than the rest of the UK as a whole. They will know that in Scotland our productivity has been more than double the UK average. Just as they will have read the research published by the Royal Bank of Scotland. It shows Scotland leading the UK with the fastest growth in new startups. But let me repeat this is just a starting point because working with our newly established National Council for Economic Growth, we intend to make Scotland the best place on these islands to do business. Now, it's a bold vision built on protecting what we have and building for the future. One that seeks to capitalize not just on our history, not just on our natural environment, but most of all, one that seeks to capitalize on the energy, skills, and talent of our people. >> Of course, I will. >> Rachel Hamilton, thank the cabinet secretary for taking in the intervention. Yesterday, we were at uh a fiscal literacy event, but I noticed that the uh cabinet secretary wasn't at that event. Maybe he knows everything, but what we did learn is that there's an 800 million uh tax uh base gap. If everything is so rosy in his introduction to his speech and Scotland's doing so well, where is that tax base gap come from? Cabinet Secretary. >> Thank you, Deputy Presiding Officer. I think it's long overdue that the Tories took a fiscal literacy test given uh given they are of course the party of Liz Trust but I'll leave the the member to to reflect on that very small matter of collapsing the entire UK economy as well. So they're getting on with reflecting on those things. What we'll do is create an economy where longestablished sectors such as tourism, food and drink and financial services can adapt, innovate and stay ahead of the global competition. An economy where new sources of growth across energy, net zero technologies and infrastructure generate long-term sustainable employment and help shelter our economy from global shocks. >> Yes, of course I can. >> Thank the cabinet secret for giving way. He makes an important point about these sectors driving growth, but one of the big challenges for Scotland is firms based in Scotland. They mentioned there was a high rate of startup growth, but one of the big challenges Scotland has is the amount of firms that don't grow and then are bought over by overseas conglomerates. There's a real challenge of retaining massive firms in Scotland. >> Cabinet Secretary. >> Yes. And if Mr. Sweeney bears with me just a moment, I will come to that very point because we have some good news in that regard. But of course, beyond the energy net zero and infrastructure space, we also want an economy where our creative sector continues to break new ground, challenge convention, and shape our national brand. An economy where emerging sectors such as space, AI, life sciences, and critical technologies have the talent, investment, and opportunities they need to get stronger and create businesses that start up and scale successfully. To repeat, because it does bear repeating an economy that generates well-paid jobs for people in every corner of Scotland. Now, I'm cleareyed enough to know that to deliver those aims, we must work at pace. For investors, we know that the processes involved in moving from idea to implementation can too often be too sticky and too slow. That is why this government will create a major projects office to accelerate progress on nationally and strategically significant investment projects. It will unblock barriers and unlock private investment. Of course, >> Mr. Johnson, >> I'm very grateful to the cabinet secretary for giving way and while I I think it is welcome to facilitate high growth, it's not a danger of duplication the creation of this unit, isn't that what Scottish Enterprise is for? And is there any intent to reform the enterprise agencies? >> Cabinet Secretary, I >> I don't believe that there will be any duplication. I'll certainly make sure that that's not the case when when we're talking about the future of the enterprise agencies. I think it is however important to recognize the fact that we have a direction of travel in relation to regional economic growth and I look forward to saying a little bit more of that in my speech and I'm sure Mr. Johnson will agree with me on many of those points as he appears very keen to do so on far too many occasions up till now. But as I reemphasize that our determination is to unblock barriers and unlock private investment. We do recognize that it's not enough on its own. We can reduce barriers and as a result this parliament we have a responsibility as a parliament to make sure that when we regulate we do so simply we do so flexibly and we do so as a last resort for the innovators. We know that too often it can be too easy to find the capital to support and develop your ideas and products not here in Scotland but abroad. But we want you to stay in Scotland. We want you to scale in Scotland because your success is our collective success. That is why this government will create a new high growth unit to provide the wraparound support you need. It will build upon the support offered by our enterprise agencies and our investment bank. But it's not enough on its own. So we will use the power of public sector procurement to stimulate innovation and provide new business opportunities for Scottish companies and we will empower our regional economies to thrive. This point will require an element of bravery from the government. And on the point of bravery, I see Rachel Hamilton's coming back in once again. >> Oh, Mr. Flynn, I'm not scared of you. Um 98% of uh businesses in Scotland are small businesses. Your speech is talking about scaling up um and being supported by SOC and enterprises. They tend to support bigger businesses. Isn't it time we gave small businesses support too because they are the drivers of our economy? Cabinet Secretary >> Rachel Hamilton, as well as going to a fiscal literacy course, perhaps should also look at some of the other schemes that are in place from this government to support small businesses, such as the very generous small business support that we offer to ensure that they don't have to pay business rates in Scotland, which I think is incredibly important to the bottom line for many of those small businesses that she and I want to see thrive. But she appears to she appears to be suggesting she's not in favor of the small business bonus which I think will come as a surprise to many of the businesses in her constituency. Mr. Renie of course >> Mr. Is the cabinet secretary able to provide the chamber with an update on his relationships with Alvance and the DL plant with Liberty Steel? And businesses will find it and entrepreneurs will find it frustrating that the government is prepared to put hundreds of millions of pounds of financial backing for those companies on the promise that they would make significant investments that have not been fulfilled. So what action is the government going to take for nothing else at least to restore some confidence amongst those entrepreneurs that this government is on their side? >> Cabinet Secretary >> I thank Mr. Renie for his question and I I know that he's been very diligent on this issue over very many years. I think it's important just to to place on record that sometimes in life and sometimes in politics you don't engage with people who you believe to be acting in good faith and if I may suggest that that is the case in this regard not in regards to Mr. already but of course in regards to the company who are associated with DL and I expect them to respond in a much more positive fashion moving forward than they have up till now and on the specifics that Mr. Renie seeks an answer to. I can of course give him the commitment to write to him in detail on this very topic and to perhaps meet with him in person if he feels that will be of benefit going forward. So, so what so what lessons has the government learned from its engagement with Mr. Gupta and the GFG Alliance because the serious fraud office are investigating them. There have been numerous years where they've not published financial accounts. So surely the government must reflect on the decisions that it took at the end of the last decade so that we do not repeat these mistakes. cabinet secretary. I >> look, I I do not think it's a mistake for government to want to protect jobs in Scotland. In fact, I think it's incumbent upon us to do that. And there's a number of examples that I could point to over the course of recent years where we've done exactly that and we've been well-intentioned in our approach and we've approached it in good faith. Unfortunately, that good faith is not reflected by everyone who we have dealt with. And as I've said, I'm more than happy to write to Mr. Renie in relation to the specific points that he has made. But the point I was seeking to to make, deputy presiding officer, because I am conscious of time, is that when we seek to allow our regional economies to thrive and to provide that empowerment, it will require an element of bravery from government, not just because it represents public sector reform, but because it involves moving power from the center outwards. But I do believe that there is shared ambition amongst most in this parliament to do just that. And that shared ambition extends itself to the support we have in this chamber for a variety of issues. Whether that's expanding child care because it can have a positive impact on our economy. Well, that's the important role that developing and nurturing the skills of tomorrow can have on our economy and the important role that bringing the long-term unemployed back into the workforce can have on our economy. And Deputy Presiding Officer, I do not say shared ambition lightly. I say it because it is essential that we acknowledge that economic growth cannot just be about this government. It must be about this parliament. Yes, we will have our differences, but as members of this parliament, we must be willing to come together to deliver for our economy and the people who sent us here. And this parliament must recognize that the world around us is turning and Scotland cannot afford to stand still or to yearn for the past. To do so would repeat the mistakes of prime minister after prime minister after prime minister after prime minister. That's just the last few years. uh Westminster, we must instead recognize that domestic supply chains matter, that energy security is not a choice but a necessity, and that our partnership with European allies is essential. To be clear, it's why this parliament must fight to protect the energy jobs that we have today, but also be big enough to back the energy opportunities of tomorrow. the wind, solar, and pump storage projects that will not only provide us with ever more abundant clean energy, but that will allow us to create new jobs and build the expertise we need to export our skills across the world. Not to run and cower from the opportunity in front of us, like those who deny science on the benches to my left seek to do, but to highlight the economic opportunity that energy abundance has and continues to offer our nation. Because not only can it offer jobs, it also offers us a unique opportunity to anchor the digital world right here in Scotland. It is our competitive advantage and we only get one opportunity to capture it. >> Of course I will. >> Send the Carson. >> I I thank the cabinet say for giving away and and I think there's no doubt the importance of energy uh and so on to create jobs. So why has this government over the last 20 years completely failed to take communities in rural Scotland with them, bring them on board, and yet we see communities fighting on a daily basis to prevent the the industrialization of rural Scotland with massive turbines, uh, solar parts, now AI centers. Why is the government failed to take the communities with them? >> Look, I I thought that the Tories believed in investment. I thought that they believed in energy abundance and I thought that they understood the constitutional makeup of these isles because as Finley Carson will know responsibility for the grid in Scotland does not rest with the Scottish government. Nisso plans rest with the UK government and I will and planning is of course within our remitt but he will recognize and understand on these aisles energy needs to get from A to B and I will come to that very point in due course. >> Yeah I have been very generous uh deputy presiding officer with my time. I'm very conscious that it has eaten into my time in terms of being generous in that regard. So let me just jump to a concluding point because I think all of us in this chamber have watched the doommongering that has stemmed from Westminster over the course of recent years and we've seen it just yesterday with Rachel Reeves, sorry, John Healey speaking again about the future of the UK and what a contrast that doomongering is to the opportunity that we have here in Scotland to grasp that renewables opportunity to look at the digital world in a new way to make sure that our financial services are growing to ensure that those innovative technologies such as semiconductors are harnessed and secured in Scotland for our domestic security going forward. That's a hopeful optimistic future for Scotland. It's something that we should be very proud of and I of course therefore move the motion in my name. >> Thank you. >> Call Daniel Johnston 5 minutes please. Thank you very much. I assume my five minutes is a little bit more clear tailed than the cabinet secretaries 10. Uh but uh uh and I moved the amendment in my name. Um I spent the summer with people asking me the constant question, what did I think was going to be in the program for government? I said I didn't know. And actually I should have been much more confident because there's two big ideas. One about ritualization and the other about health service for both came from the Labor Party manifesto. So um you know but you know But I I think what we have to do is look at these issues seriously. I think it is important that we move from an agenda that has come from this uh parliament I think across different administrations which is focused on building central bureaucracy to one about delivery. But I am concerned that we have had a lack of clarity and articulation for the government so far. But I make these comments because I do want to be constructive. I think this agenda is an important one. And so the comments that I make are are in the sense that I would like to see a reform agenda that is genuinely cross party because longlasting reform requires cross party input and consensus. But I think fundamentally general Petraeus uh the the leading general and strategic thinker has a theory of change which relies on four key things. One is having a big idea, communicating the big idea, having a a mechanism for delivery and then refining. My concern is is that while the government has said that what it wants to do is have public sort of person- centered delivery, what they've not said is what assets does it believe it has and how does it believe that it's going to reorganize them to that delivery and it's certainly I don't think in my view has communicated that. So looking at that more specifically at regalization, this is something we have to look at. Now the cabinet secretary referenced uh Scotland's growth figures and they are interesting but we should look at growth figures around the country. Manchester's GDP per head was 1.7,000 pounds lower per head than Scotland in 2016, but it overtook Scotland in 2022. Since 2009, Scotland's productivity grew 13%. But it's only one 1% of that growth since 2020. In the Northwest, it's the reverse. It's had 11% productivity growth since 2009, but 10% of that was since 2020. something is happening in England's regions that is not happening in Scotland's regions. We need to analyze that and bottle it. Now I worry that the regionalization agenda is and while it's important is being blown off course in recent days over focus on council merges. I think we need to see an articulation about why regionalization matters and it's not just about the numbers elsewhere. is because I believe regions are the fundamental building blocks that we can build economic growth. It is the area where we can create coordinated plans for delivery, create partnership between government and industry and trade unions, where we can plan infrastructure to grow local economies. Ultimately, my view is this. Since 1999, we have been using devolved powers to recreate a unitary uh state. I think that has been a mistake. What we need to do is use this reform agenda to reverse that to push powers out from the center. I think there is a fear in local government at the moment that what we're talking about is sucking powers up from local authorities. If you speak to local leaders in England where we've got successful combined authorities, they are clear about one thing. Ignore mayors. Ignore those structures. That's not what it's about. is about having a plan about coordinating across local authority areas and power being pushed down from the center. That's what we need to see in Scotland. And I think likewise in other areas of public sector reform, we need to hear more about the how. How will this make things better? But critically, what is the organizing principle that will be changed and how will we ensure local accountability? But in my final minute, I just want to also draw attention to the skills agenda. The the labor market projections show that we will have a 1.3 million person shortfall in labor in the coming years. But all we had in the plan, the program for government was 150,000 apprenticips. You divide that by five and you come up with a figure of 30,000. That number sounds familiar. It was the pledge from the last parliament for the number of apprenticeships. But over the last 5 years, the number of apprentichip start has never exceeded 26,000. So, it's a recycled pledge and one which doesn't acknowledge the shortfall in the last few years. We need a skills agenda that's not just about catching up. We need one that's about upskilling and reskilling. One that focuses on needs, how we ensure that people stay in the workplace with an aging population. Scotland has enormous assets and huge potential. We are a small nation, but one that can be flexible. But above all else, we have people with enormous potential and talent. We need to make the most of them. Thank you, Deputy Presiding Officer. >> Thank you. Can I ask Mr. Johnson to move amendment 1070.1? Mr. Johnson, can you move your amendment? >> I did that at the beginning. I moved the amendment in my name if I didn't previously. Apologies. speak to and move. >> Welcome offer to speak to and move amendment 1070.4 10 minutes please. >> Thank you deputy presiding officer. Another day another debate on the economy and economic growth. What is that? No politician in this parliament since 2010 has experienced it. So how can they debate it? Deputy Presiding Office, in the last 10 years, GDP per head, which is the only true measure of prosperity, has been anemic in the UK, in Scotland, and in Europe. For example, in 10 years, France up 8%. >> UK No, I'm going to continue. I'm going to make some progress. France up 8%, UK up 5%, Germany up 3 and a half%, Scotland up 3%. To be clear, that's inflation adjusted over 10 years, meaning all four countries have grown at less than 1% peranom. So if misery likes company, it's not just us. But compare that to the USA with 18% real growth in the same decade where GDP perhead is now one and a half times that that of the UK. And Mr. Flynn and the Tartan army saw that firsthand in Boston this summer. So what is to be done? Well, it's actually pretty simple. How about we adopt some policies which drive economic growth? Before I give you some examples, why bother? Deputy Presiding Officer, yesterday we had a very worthwhile workshop here in Hollywood with Spice Fraser Islander and Scottish Fiscal Commission. I think all members would agree it was a sobering day. The Scottish government is facing a 5 billion black hole over the next 5 years and there are no easy answers. S&P policy decisions, well-meaning no doubt, have pushed welfare spending up to record levels, public sector employment and pay up to record levels, government borrowing and debt service up to record levels, and taxation up to record levels. The only way out of this squeeze is to create economic growth. But the only record here is it's close to zero. Population in Scotland is 5 a.5 million, comprising 900,000 children under 16, 3.6 6 million adults of working age and 1 million pensioners. The 3.6 million adults fall into three categories. 2.1 million working in the private sector, 600,000 the public sector and 900,000 not working. The welfare economy created by Nicholas Sturgeon and promulgated by the S&P for the last 10 years has been very good for those who work in the public sector and for those who do not work. But it's been disastrous for the private sector. For the public sector, 20 years of upwards only pay increases, no redundancy policy. And final salary pensions, loan six abolished in the private sector. For those on welfare, the most generous regime in the UK with Scottish social security already costing 1 billion more than UK equivalent. But for the private sector, well, they just have to pay for it, right? Six income tax bans making Scots the highest tax in the UK, driving productivity down. Energy costs a record high level. Employment taxes at a record high level, minimum wage at a record high level, and business rates at a record high level. Is it any surprise when I meet business owners? They just shake their heads in despair. Those bought shoulders are now shrugging their shoulders. Why bother growing their revenues when it's all taken away? Why bother hiring new staff or expanding their premises when additioning costs are so punishing? Deputy Presiding Officer, more than half of the private sector employ workers are employed by small mediumsiz enterprises. Surely the alarm bells must have sounded when the government just learned that of the top 500memes in Scotland, onethird reported the revenues went down in the last 12 months. And just today, just today, no, I'm going to continue for now. Uh just today VG Meathers, Hollers and Canour have gone into liquidation after 6 years of trading citing skyrocketing fuel prices, soaring insurance premiums, mounting compliance burdens, and rising maintenance costs. Deputy presiding officer, it's time now for a reset. We need to build a wealth economy rather than a welfare economy. It is only the private sector that can create the wealth that pays for public services and welfare. So, let's implement policies to make work pay, to reward workers who work, to incentivize business owners to invest in their companies, and to focus on jobs. And why focus on our base of 380,000memes in Scotland? Because the days of mass employment in Scotland are over. We discussed this in the chamber last week. We highlighted include where 16,000 jobs in ship building give way to 8,000 jobs in electronics give way to 2,000 jobs in call centers and ever decreas decreasing circles. Now the member for Imberly last week put on the record that the blame for that lies with the Tories. Well, it's not down to me to defend the Tories, but that is just a lazy trope. That is that is that is just a lazy trope designed to fit a political narrative. The reality is that by the 1980s and I was there in that time, South Korea was building ships at onethird of the price and in onethird of the time as the cloudside yards. It was international competition which closed the shipyards. Similarly on electronics in greenox, it was well known 10 years before it closed that IBM could manufacture cheaper in Hungary and Bangladesh and so they left. So that is why we should focus all our attention on our base of 380,000memes because they are loyal. They they are local. I'm going to continue. They are local. They're loyal to their communities and they won't disappear overseas so long as they remain competitive. This is our opportunity now to get them inside incentivized to grow their revenues, invest in the premises and people and employ local ad adults who can be retrained and reskilled. But in order to do that, we need to reduce their cost of doing business. And to deliver that, we need a coordinated approach between Westminster, Hollywood, and local authorities to enact policies which drive economic growth. Let me give you five short examples. Policy number one, cheaper energy. My colleague Dun Duncan Massie will expand on this, but it's clear we cannot re-industrialize Scotland with an energy cost at four times the US and seven times China. And it's time now we use our own North Sea gas as our transition fuel. Policy number two, lower taxes. If the government increases taxes on people who work while paying people more who don't work, don't be surprised if more people don't work. Instead, lower the tax rates and give everyone an incentive to work. Policy number three, skills and training. One quarter of S1 pupils don't have the literacy to access education. Let's fix that and stream them into the Swiss head, hands or heart at 12 and get them into meaningful technical jobs through the schools and colleges. And for adults, create a lifelong learning program for continual reskilling and retraining. Policy number four, deregulation. Get rid of the business prevention officers, simplifying fasttrack planning decisions formemes, and remove useless EU bureaucracy such as GDPR. Policy number five, no more gimmicks and no more woke. To the cabinet secretary, I say, "Please just drop the food price cap. They tried it in Hungary and the poor went hungry." No more performative debates on Gaz or transgender and never end them. Just get out of the way and allow our own very creative and innovative Scots to build businesses and create jobs. What is the objective here? Simply, very simple. to build a new modern Scotland which builds prosperity for all through well-paid and meaningful jobs rather than through welfare. To create a joined up industrial strategy for Scotland based around our 10, not three, worldclass centers of excellence, financial services, advanced manufacturing, energy, food and drink, tourism and hospitality, creative industries, life sciences, agriculture, fisheries and marine. to get our young people streamed into these sectors primarily through our schools, colleges, and apprenticeships. And we're adding value, our universities, to get our adults reskilled and retrained with an objective to grow our working population from 2.7 million to 3 million by helping 300,000 Scots of welfare into work and to equip our local authorities with 10-year plans to regenerate their town centers with business premises formemes with health, housing, and transport solutions for local workers, which will rebuild civic pride with one single objective to create wealth, which which will in turn create health and happiness. Deputy presiding officer, the laugher curve is never wrong. Increase taxes and you will collect less tax. Reduce tax rates and you will collect more revenue. Look at Sweden 20 years ago. Between 2000 and 2017, they reduced their tax ratio from 51% to 44% of GDP and they now collect an extra 20 billion peranom. It's time to drop the mindless ideology. Tax the rich. Well, the rich is 1% of the population is already contributing 30% of income tax and the top 10% contribute 50%. What happens when they stop striving or retire early or leave? It's pretty simple. Newton's third law says every action has an equal and opposite reaction. Increasing tax rates reduces revenue collection. Reducing tax rates increases revenue collection. Go figure. I move the amendment in my name. >> I call Patrick Harvey. 7 minutes please uh to speak to and move amendment 1070.2. >> Thanks presiding officer. There might be a little bit of a key change at this point in the in the debate. I I'd like to begin by acknowledging some aims that the Scottish government have and some aims that the UK government have that I share and which I hope they share with each other. The the Scottish government's motion talks about raising living standards, a strong and sustainable economy, investing in highquality public services, increasing climate resilience, and tackling the climate and nature emergencies. Any progressive party or government should share those objectives. and the the UK government. I'm slightly surprised that the the Labour uh opening speech didn't champion uh a little bit some of the prime minister's remarks in his first speech. Uh Andy Burnham as prime minister promised the biggest changes in the last 40 years. He talked about a new economic model. He said four decades of the neoliberalism that began in the 1980s have not been kind. He said in the 1980s Britain took some wrong turns. political power was centralized, economic power privatized, large parts of the country de-industrialized, and they still haven't recovered. This is ambitious rhetoric. It remains to be seen whether any of that turns into action on the scale that's necessary to meet that challenge. And critically, if there is action to follow uh the on the scale of that challenge, it must include bringing much economic power back under democratic control. as well as centralization, privatization, and de-industrialization. The harms of the neoliberalism that began in the 1980s also included the growth of extractive industries, exploiting people and planet, and hugely growing inequality. Now, we can't simply reverse time, but we can begin to repair the damage on privatization. Scotland never copied the doomed experiment of privatizing the water industry and has already recently taken Scot Rail back into public ownership, but there's far more that we can do to grow public and community ownership in our economy. The current moves toward bus franchising should be a first step toward fully publicly owned bus services. Public stakes in renewable energy and investment in publiclyowned and operated heat networks can also play a significant role. And we can begin to reverse decades of harmful drift on housing policy where social housing was sold off and new build was directed by invested interest investors interests instead of by social need. Changing it would take time but routes to bringing private rented housing stock into social rent and ensuring that land use in future is determined by local housing needs would be a strong start. I give way >> Daniel Jones. >> I'm very grateful to Patrick Harvey for giving way. I was interested by that detail within the green amendment. When they say stock transfer, are they you inferring that there would be market uh uh uh uh level compensation or what does he envisionage uh that transfer entailing? >> Mr. Harvey, it >> I certainly don't imagine it would be on the scale of wholesale stock transfer in the way that we saw away from the social renting sector. But if any landlord believes that they're not making enough extractive profit out of private rents anymore in the face of rent controls, they should be given a route to make sure that that h that home can move into the social rent sector with tenant insight. There are other options that I think the government has already started exploring on that and we should build on it on poverty and insecure work. Uh again, good intentions in the Scottish government have been the beginnings of important changes in the application of fair work principles, but here we're held back by the devolution settlement. With more power to act, we could achieve fair working conditions and an end to poverty wages throughout the economy. And for those who are angry about social security uh costs, I would remind members that poverty wages are the overriding reason why so many workers depend on in work social security benefits. On union rights, the UK government has taken some good first steps, repealing some of the worsts of recent anti-UN laws. That agenda can go further. Devolution doesn't let us legislate for that, but the Scottish government could work with the trade union movement to drive up membership, especially in under unionized sectors like hospitality and the gig economy. Union organization helps drive up standards. It rebalances power in the economy and has been shown to cut inequality as well. On deregulation, another feature of 1980s neoliberalism. The Scottish government's better regulation framework is not as simplistic as a straightforward deregulation agenda, but it too often places the interest of business ahead of the purpose of serving the public interest. And many regulators in Scotland have had legal duties imposed on them to put economic growth ahead of the public good, ahead of public health, and ahead of protection for the environment. You don't need to share the green skepticism about GDP to recognize that regulators should be putting their regulatory purpose ahead of boosting GDP because a truly successful economy is one that respects those priorities while meeting people's material needs on wage and wealth inequality. the gulf between the highest and lowest paid and the extraordinary growth in social and political power of the super rich to control how we live our lives, the ideas we're exposed to, how we see the world. That must be confronted uh as well. And this week, yet again, Scotland and the UK has seen how profound a threat we now face from far-right ideas, racist and anti-immigrant conspiracy theories which some of the wealthiest people on this planet are propagating. Redistributing power in our economy must mean redistributing wealth. And again, Scotland has taken initial steps with a fairer tax system, but that must be only the beginning. and every level of government must do more, ensuring that asset wealth is part of the tax base. If we do all of this, not only do we achieve a more equal society, but we also achieve an economy which has the resources to invest collectively in the things that improve our lives collectively, health care, education, community facilities, the public realm, and so much more. Because the economic model that has been dominant for decades has caused inequality. It's allowed exploitation. It's accelerated environmental destruction. But it's also allowed our public services and our public realm to be degraded when they should have been renewed for the 21st century. Presiding officer, all of this can and must change if people are going to be given a real reason to believe that politics is capable of improving their lives and their communities and building a world that we can pass on to the next generation with pride. I move the amendment in my name. >> Thank you. Can I call Rachel Hamilton to speak to and move amendment 1070.3 6 minutes please? >> Thank you preciding officer and I move the amendment in my name. Well, where to start? I'm going to attempt by uh speaking to some of the amendments to Steven Flynn's motion. But what I would say is that Scottish Conservatives do agree on some aspects of program for government, which are around uh public uh sector reform and uh procurement modernization, which we heard a lot of this morning. Uh businesses need support to be able to scale up and they need access to public sector procurement, particularly Mr. discipline in the uh sector of AI which seems to be there seems to be a lack of guidance from government but here we are we've got Steven Flynn and John Swinny trying to rebrand two dec decades of economic failure as a fresh start it's not a fresh start they promised an econ economy fit for the future but Scots are still being punished with high taxes and whilst their businesses face rising costs costs, their sluggish growth, and yet they want more reviews and consultations put onto businesses who are just trying to survive. Scotland needs action from the S&P. It doesn't need any more dithering. We've seen enough of the dithering. We've got a high tax agenda. We've got a high spend agenda. And the only way we are going to ensure that we've got public services that are fit for purpose is to ensure that we cut taxes. Now, if I look at some of the the the information that we received yesterday at the fiscal literacy and I I reiterate my point. I believe that the cabinet secretary should have been there because he would have heard what the rest of us and his S&P backbench colleagues heard. Scotland has lagged behind the rest of the United Kingdom for a decade decade and that is at a cost of 12 billion and the benefits bill which Patrick Harvey talks about is is nearly 10 billion that will reach 10 billion by 2030. Yeah, of course. cabinet secretary. Just as a point of clarity for Rachel Hamilton, because she's placed on record twice now, uh where I was yesterday, um some of us have child care commitments, uh on a Monday, and I wouldn't want her to get into the space of trying to make a political point in relation to myself, which I'm sure she'll try to use elsewhere, without recognizing the fact that I I wasn't able to be in Edinburgh yesterday because like a lot of people in this parliament, I have children, and I'm sure she'll reflect upon Rachel Hamilton. >> Yes. And I totally accept that I had three children um of a young age when I started here in 2016 and and had child care responsibilities as well. Um but the S&P's own fiscal watchdog says that weak earnings and employment growth are eroding Scotland's tax base. The Scottish Scottish Fish School Commission identified an 888 million pound taxbased performance gap in 202425 and that was driven primarily by uh slow aggregate earnings and employment growth in Scotland uh that was slower than the rest of the United Kingdom. The program for government talks about making Scotland the best place to do business, but it it it says that businesses should be doing more consultation and have more regulation. Yes, of course. >> Bob Doris, >> I thank Rachel Hamilton for giving away. I was at the the event yesterday also presiding officer. One of the things we heard was in the year before Scotland had a a surplus of over600 million pounds. One of the issues with the fiscal framework is that volatility from one year to the next. Another reason we have to reform the fiscal framework. Would Rachel Hamilton agree with that? Any budget is going to have a forecast as Bob Doris will know and it will have to do reconciliation whatever. But the the fundamental uh argument remains that the tax base has not improved and the government are relying on making choices here in this Scottish Parliament that support increasing um things that they can't afford and the public can see that. But moving towards um the green amendment, I'm just surprised that Patrick Harvey burst out laughing at Malcolm offered uh reference to the Laffer curve because we we all know Mr. Harvey that um you know in work poverty that you talk about it it is about you know people not turning down pay increases to keep their child payment. It is about making work pay. It is about increasing productivity and it's about allowing people to be skilled up and get earning power and to actually you know get on in life and to that is the best way to support people. Um on the green amendment in itself I mean the share of Scots paying the higher rate has more than doubled from 12% in 1617 to a forecast of 26% this year. a million taxpayers are expected to be caught by uh that increase by 2030. And of course, we we've heard that tax um rises did not raise the money that they hoped with the analysis um suggesting that the 48 p top rate of income tax may have reduced public revenues by 22 million. That is 22 million that we could have put put towards really essential public services. And if we look at it as um part of the United Kingdom, Scots already pay 1.8 billion pounds more in tax than they would elsewhere in the United Kingdom. But I I want to move um on to some of the other amendments. There's much I can agree with in the reform amendment um particularly around the impact of high energy costs and also um the argument that we must be making to increase our nuclear capacity whether it's small reactors um which are a simpler solution or supporting uh uh oil and gas in the North Sea and supporting all those uh jobs that are created in the North Sea. I see my time is running out. Did you say I had six or seven minutes? >> Could I take another minute for taking interventions? >> You can have some time for taking interventions. >> I'll quickly um just wind up on some of the speaking towards the um Liberal Democrat amendment. We we just can't support this amendment, I'm afraid, Mr. MacArthur. Um because I feel as though you're patting yourself on the back for supporting um an SMP budget, and that SMP budget has failed the economy. It has weakened economic growth and it has failed um the delivery of public services um for just a very small uh negotiation return that the Liberal Democrats got and I think they sort of played you on on that. Um and I mean finally on the Scottish Conservative amendment I I just believe that we need to remove the barriers to growth. We need to remove the challenges that small businesses and the rural economy are facing. Um Steven Flynn's um comment there about the small business rate bonus I think is really uninformed because he knows perfectly well that the assessor's revaluation which the government set the criteria of has increased um the uh valuations and the bills that small businesses are facing and it has decreased the number of people who are now eligible because they've gone over the threshold for small business rate relief and I don't need to register my interest for that because I do not receive a small business rate relief as a shareholder in a small business. Thank you. >> I call Liam MacArthur to speak to move amendment 1070.55 minutes, please. >> Thank you, presiding officer. Uh can I start by um welcoming the cabinet secretary to his post rather belatedly um but also thank him for the engagement he's shown over what is a pretty vast brief. Um there is much I agreed with in terms of his opening remarks and indeed in the in the motion. I think the criticism that he was perhaps a little rosetinted in his perspective aliding over some of the challenges, challenges that are perhaps external and over which we have less control, but also I think challenges that are faced by businesses uh here in in Scotland as a result of things that are very much within our control. I think there's a consistent and a persistent impression that decision making can take longer here than it needs to and happens elsewhere. I think it's something we collectively do need to address. Um though can I note and welcome the uh recognition the program for government last week that our islands are quote productive engines for economic growth. That's reflected in my amendment which I have pleasure in moving. Um I think it has the benefit of being true. We see this in uh the energy sector where our transition to uh to net zero. Um, we see it in our fishing and agriculture and aquaculture sectors and our wider world leading food and drink sector where Scotland's aspirations rest fairly heavily on our islands continuing to punch above our weight. Uh, but government rhetoric here needs to be matched by reality. 10 years on, I think the islands act has failed to live up to the promises made by ministers at the time. And I have come across no islander who has anything good to say about the legislation and who cannot point to so-called island proofing or island impact assessments as having delivered anything tangible in practice. It does feel that this has paid lip service against the backdrop of tendencies within government uh to centralize. Over the summer we saw the loss of air services on key uh lifeline route serving the islands. We've seen ongoing and widespread disruption to ferry services on the west coast and an island's resilience fund which was slow to be set up to pay out and is ignoring still many of the legitimate claims in coastal communities. Similarly, the roll out of digital infrastructure essential to leveling the playing field for rural and island areas has been slow, subject to lengthy delays and currently lacks resilience. So, I think there's time for legislative scrutiny and some much needed dental work. to put some more teeth into the islands act. Despite these criticisms, however, Scottish Liberal Democrats will continue to look for areas where we can make progress with the government and indeed other parties. It's what the public uh would expect. I think the cabinet secretary was right in that. There's a lot of frustration, even anger out there at politicians over promising and and underdeling. I think a government that's been imposed for two decades must again shoulder much of the responsibility. But the onus is on all of us elected to this parliament to find ways of getting things done to address the real pressing needs of those who sent us here. I think our track record as a party whether on legislation or indeed in budget negotiations has been has lived up to that expectation. Last year amongst other things we did secure 178 million pounds in a relief package to help businesses struggling with eyewatering rate release. No small nothing I would suggest to Miss Hamilton. It provided breathing space but fundamental reform is required and I welcome the fact that government has embarked on that process but it must continue to have business at its heart. It will not be easy and government I'll take an intervention with Patrick Harvey. >> Patrick Harvey >> I'm uh I'm grateful to Liam MacArthur. Uh the the [clears throat] parts of the Libdem motion about non-domemestic rates were the only bet I was trying to understand in order to reach a decision on on how we'll vote. Is Liam MacArthur saying that what should happen in future is fundamental reform that achieves fairness and predictability but also to ensure that those businesses that can pay do or is he as some do actually asking for a tax cut for business which much of which would be capitalized into business rents and has to be paid for either on taxes on workers or cuts to services. Lee McCaf, >> I think that's a a fair point and and goes to the heart of the I suppos the dilemma facing the government in particular in coming up with something that will command um confidence across the business community but across the the public as as a whole. Um those funds need to be raised somehow. We need to find a way that is felt to be fair and equitable. I think what we're seeing in the current system is sharp rises that appear to come out of nowhere and leave viable businesses uh with in certainly in the short-term cash flow issues in some cases uh leave their viability in question through no fault of their own. Um, and I think, as I say, Patrick Harvey highlights some of the complexity here, and it's why the government has to avoid going down the route of short-term fixes or even gimmicks, the sorts of gimmicks that have given rise to the proposed food price cap that I think has been roundly condemned as being counterproductive in the area of um housing as well. um the the parliament um has declared a a housing emergency two years ago since when the action in response from government has not reflected that same urgency. I was at a summit yesterday looking at Orcne's future workforce and pretty consistently across the board. Housing was being identified as um one of if not the biggest obstacle to businesses, third sector organizations and to the delivery of key public services. I'm sure is not alone in that. will be seeing similar stories across the the country. Long-term investment is needed, but so are urgent steps in the short term. And the Scottish government, I think, must also accept that the cumulative impact of some of the recent policy decisions have created uncertainty and a loss of confidence in a sector which has not helped in this regard. The government truly does consider our islands to be engines of growth. It can't afford to maintain a one-sizefits-all approach to policy that ignores the specific needs of those communities. Better tailored support for Ireland resilience, connectivity, and infrastructure in the short term will have long-term benefits for Scotland's economy as a whole. Presiding officer, I welcome the ambition set out in the government motion, but also recognize the substantial work and reform needed to ensure that ambition can be realized for every part of Scotland. And I urge colleagues to support the amendment in my name, which I move. Can I call uh in the opening speeches uh can I call firstly Bob Doris to be followed by Patricia Gibson. Six minutes please. Thank you very much, presiding officer, and I was keen to speak in this afternoon's debate to discuss how the Scottish government along with key partners can do all it can to support hugely talented individuals and businesses who are innovative uh and are often at the cutting edge of their sectors to flourish, remain based in Scotland, but have a vibrant international global reach and success. Supporting such businesses is one way Scotland can continue to maintain and strengthen our position is the most attractive place in the UK for inward investment outside London and the Southeast. However, we can both celebrate success such as that inward investment track record and be clear we must always strive to do much more and we can do that a cross party collegiate way. Yes, >> Sweenie >> I take the point Mr. Dors is making about inward investment and foreign direct investment part does he recognize that there's no critique of the nature of that investment. So for example the takeover by a foreign company of a Scottish company is actually classed as foreign direct investment. >> Bob Doris >> I thank Mr. Sweden for that intervention. I think it's very reasonable to to analyze individual investment opportunities if it meets the test if you like to benefit the Scottish economy and Scottishbased businesses. I think there's some reasonable points there that Mr. speed would seek to to make. For instance, I am sure we would all welcome that Scottish Enterprise supported projects over the last 5 year period up to March 2025 to create or safeguard around 90,000 jobs and bring their 4.6 billion pound of capital investment to Scotland. But by the same token, I would suggest that Scottish Enterprise can despite that impressive performance do better still. I'm open to suggestions this debate about what more it can do. But I want to use my speech to highlight one of Scotland's success stories. The motion speaks of making Scotland the best place to invest and to do business. Let me give the Changer Chamber of Glasgow example. I recently met with my constituent David Campbell who along with his business partners as a co-founder of Lumiè and the meeting was hugely beneficial. I learned that Lumiere's is a is building the world's most efficient and advanced neuromorphic photonic chips so that AI can run anywhere in every environment on Earth and in orbit with minimal power, no killing and entirely on device, worldleading technology in my city of Glasgow. This is a Scottish company working on global problems and Scotland got them started. Scottish Edge, a great example of partnership funding. Scottish Enterprise, Space Scotland, and Innovate UK have all backed them. Strong partnership funding. David believes our innovation ecosystem is doing its job very well. However, we must also ensure we're equally equipped to support scaleups. That is vital. All the key ingredients do exist in Scotland to support scaleups. We've got the universities, the scientists, the engineers and innovative founders of many a company. Expansion and scale up of course requires significant capital. Our successful innovators and businesses they will secure capital. I'm confident of that. What we need, however, is to support an investment environment which enables that capital to be invested here, right here in Scotland. capital investment which ensures a jobs expansion here in Scotland rather than moving internationally and with it the intellectual property going overseas and the tax base going with them. The Scottish government's program for government indicates there's to be a new major projects office to accelerate progress on strategically significant investment in private capital projects unlocking private investment across strategic sectors like housing and energy and on that front energy I should say the company that I I mentioned Lumier the neuromorphic photonic chips are 90% more efficient than the silicon alternatives and with data centers and the energy at play there that's strategically important not just for Scotland but I suggest for the world economy I welcome that and I hope companies such as Lumiè and other similar companies can benefit from that initiative and the major projects office it is positive that the Scottish government will also establish a high growth unit as we've heard working with senior industry leaders from the outset to accelerate support for high potential businesses to scale anchor and grow in Scotland and that's hugely important I believe It would be incredibly beneficial for the cabinet secretary to visit Lumiers and discuss with the founders of that business how they can continue to scale up such groundbreaking and innovative businesses if you like a an example of how uh that new high growth unit could work with businesses such as Lumiers to see a successful pathway not just for them but for other business to continue to develop and flourish based here in Scotland. So I I would extend that invite to the cabinet secretary. I was also pleased to hear in the program for government uh then the developing of the invest in Scotland portal working with partners to deliver a program of investor events and summits including a 247 scaleup summit just next year something we want to see positive outcomes from and finally the Scottish National Investment Bank is to launch a Scottish innovation fund promoting university spinouts and leveraging private capital in closing presiding officer I want to make sure our fantastic startup startups and and spinouts are invested and put deep roots here in Scotland and have an international reach and that requires private investment. But I'm also keen to know what more we can do with public sector investment and equity stakes. So when those businesses do go global we get a significant uh recoup of finances back to the Scottish public purse and we invest again and we go again the next generation of business innovation. So, I'll be supporting the government motion here this afternoon and I look forward what I think is an exciting opportunity for Scottish businesses to go global. >> Thank you. Before I call Miss Gibson, can I remind everyone who wants to speak in the debate, please press the request to speak button. Thank you. Uh, Patricia Gibson to be followed by Paul McClennon. Thank you, presiding officer. As a government which seeks to build a more just, fair, prosperous Scotland, it is vital to grow Scotland's economy and ensure Scotland is the best place to do business. We are rich in resources, rich in innovators, and in this regard have a history of leading the world. Indeed, Scotland has a very proud history, having played a pioneering and central role in the global industrial revolution, transforming from a rural society into a powerhouse of heavy industry, textiles, and engineering, and now stands on the cutting edge of new technologies which are already and will continue to transform our society. Now I won't detain the chamber by listing the world changing innovations which emanated from Scotland and have benefit benefited mankind. I will indeed. >> Rachel Hamilton >> I don't mean to put a downer on Patricia Gibson's um input but with today we've seen the Pisa rankings absolutely tanking. We used to be world leing in education in Scotland. What happened and how is that going to impact what you're talking about? Patricia Gibson, >> we have enjoyed the greatest number of workingclass children um going to university without tuition. We have record number of passes in exams. Our reading levels and maths and science are increasing and it depends on which measure you use and I'm not surprised that Rachel Hamilton chooses to use a measure which puts Scotland in its in its its poorest light. But I will say we we come from a tradition in Scotland because of our long history of um free education um where we have led the world in innovations. But we have to look to the future and we must do so with ambition as set out in the motion in the name of the cabinet secretary mindful of the potential offered by our resources our people our innovations and using the confidence which this provides to build a better Scotland for all our people and at this juncture deputy it's presiding officer I should say that um I really don't want to put a dampener on the contributions made by Malcolm offered and Rachel Rachel Hamilton. But the uncomfortable truth that flies in the face of very much of what they've said today is that there overall more taxpayers continue to move to Scotland than from the rest of the UK than are leaving. And that's from HMRC data this year. And there is no official economic data showing that any businesses in Scotland are leaving Scotland due to um the burden of tax. That's a we uncomfortable truth which I shall leave you to grapple with at your leisure. We need to build a better Scotland and that depends on how we can continue to nurture economic growth and fund our public services that we all rely on. Economic growth is the canvas upon which our broader social aims are painted, such as tackling poverty. And of course, it's important to remember that the Scottish government's investment in child care is a driver of that economic growth by allowing women to make a greater economic contribution than might otherwise be the case. An important part of a successful economy of course is about attracting inward investment to ensure highquality high-skilled jobs so that the people of Scotland can utilize their skills and live well and upskill. And I won't repeat the information and the statistics that the cabinet secretary has set out so competently because I wouldn't do it as well um presiding officer but driving economic growth essential to our commitments to ease the cost of living reducing child poverty and delivering public services improve public services for us all. And I'm pleased to hear from the cabinet secretary today that every opportunity will be taken to ensure that Scotland continues to have a strong and vibrant economy in the years to come with well-paid jobs in every part of Scotland from our cities to our island and rural communities. We must continue to make Scotland the most attractive place in the UK to invest, create jobs, and build a more sustainable future. That is not in any way of course to underplay the challenging context in which business operates. We know that there is challenging global circumstances and we know of the structural weaknesses of the Westminster economic system. The damage caused by Brexit harming business, the impact of soaring inflation, the impact of soaring energy cost, the impact of the cost of living which is making the landscape much much more challenging from bis for business than otherwise would be. But in Scotland, we have a federation of small business who I'm sure sent the same briefing to all of us telling us that their confidence, this confidence of small business in Scotland is growing and it's growing well. So again, maybe something to put a we dampener on the doomongers on that side of the chamber. We must continue to attract investment and we must continue to protect and nurture homegrown business and markets with the greatest growth potential. Removing barriers to progress, increasing business and investor confidence and securing growth in priority areas. If Rachel Hamilton wants to come in. Rachel Hamilton. >> Thank you again. Apologies, but I need to correct Patricia Gibson's assertion that small businesses are confident. We had and she will have had a brief from the FSB, the uh Federation of Small Businesses, and it says, "You cannot build an economy fit for the future if the businesses that make up 98% of the business base lack confidence in the present." I mean, read the brief. It says it there. Patricia Gibson, >> I'm actually quoting from the brief, and I'm not in any way downplaying the challenges that the Federation of Small Business has put forward. I'm not in any way attempting to undermine that. But the key line from that briefing is that confidence in small business is growing. And I know that's uncomfortable for Rachel Hamilton to hear and it's not nearly as as a big black cloud as she would like. But there you go. Maybe take that up with the Federation of Small Business and tell them that they have no right to be optimistic and they have no right to have confidence in the future because that doesn't suit her party's agenda. Um the program for government included important measures to make the the more positive business environment possible with advancement of the 1 and a half billion pound Scottish government bond program which will help attract new investment into Scotland. the new major projects office which will unlock private investment across strategic sectors like housing and energy and I look forward to the driving of innovation in health and care through a partnership between industry NHS Scotland and other care providers through innovative procurement and support for an industry-led life sciences cluster very important in air and the 35 million pound life sciences accommodation program and I welcome the develop AI Scotland as flagship international program. This is what Scotland is good at. It's good at being at the cutting edge of new technologies just as it was at the cutting edge of the industrial revolution. In that regard, Scotland hasn't lost her edge. But we do operate in extremely challenging circumstances. We are shackled by a failing Westminster system. But the positive the the the outlook for Scotland is very very positive. But imagine how we are punching above our weight right now. Imagine for a moment what more we could do with the normal powers of an independent country at our disposal. It is possible to build prosperity and deliver a fairer Scotland. And with the limited powers that we have, we are doing just that. [applause] Paul McClennon. >> Thank you signing officer. I'm pleased to contribute to this debate this afternoon in the program for government around about economy fit for the future. As the member for East Loing coast lers I speak for a constituency that combines coastline productive farmland growing towns and villages and of course a strategic position on the edge of the capital. East Lotheian is one of East Scotland's fastest growing areas. Tourism and renewables are key sectors in East London. Both employable number in the area. Tourism employs around about 3 to 4,000 people in East London and generates around about 200 million pounds to the local economy. A recent report by the energy and climate intelligence unit alongside the CBI showed that East Ludian employs around about 1,500 people in the green energy sector and with tors decommissioning in the next few years transition. We'll be keen. And I am seeing that growth in the green energy sector in East and and we have Jillian Martin and I visited Hadfab probably about 6 months ago and we've seen the the position of Hadfab. It's probably doubled or tripled its workforce. It's taken on a lot of numbers in terms of apprentichip. So that's where the green energy jobs are going and he's slowed in and the growth is is huge potential and he's in community benefits and community ownership of renewables as well as development of heat networks are a key focus of my work in the next 5 years. with the pace of growth need then this brings opportunity but it also brings pressure on infrastructure on housing and skills and local services and I'll touch on that further on in my speech so an economy fit for the future must deliver for places like East London and the flexibility around about delivering free and other parts of Scotland of course is vital oneizefits all doesn't work I welcome the clear focus on the fiveyear program for government around about growing the economy and eradicating child poverty tackling climate emergency and sustaining highquality public services they all go hand in hand. We need to grow our economy to make sure we tackle child poverty, we tackle the climate emergency, and we look at high quality public services. And I think that's something we all agree on. In particular, I support the the commitment to deliver economic growth that reflects unique strengths, opportunities, and ambitions for each part of Scotland. As I said before, that principle is essential. A one-sizefits-all approach will not work. I agree with the point that Daniel Johnson made around about local economic strategies. They must be at the heart of delivery. In East Loian, we have such a strategy and East Loian works very closely with neighbors in Edinburgh, Midlotheian, West Lian, F and the borders. The East Loian local economy strategy sets out a clear vision. It's a thriving, sustainable, inclusive East Lian. It builds on five key principles. Fairness, enterprising, thriving, resilient, and community wealth building. And of course, green and sustainable, something we can all agree on. These align closely with the national priorities in the program for government and with the End Southeast City region deal. and of course the regional prosperity framework. Our strengths are real. Tourism, hospitality generates hundreds of millions for the local economy and supports thousands of jobs. Our food and drink sector has a strong reputation not only of course in East but across Scotland. We have significant renewable energy potential as I mentioned particular around about the former McKenzie site and of course offshore opportunities and we're already seeing that in the strategic development sites at Blindwells and just last week the cabinet secretary Steven Flynn visited Denver Innovation Hub near Queen Mar University again in East and that's seen opportunities for growth for growth sectors in Isolia and that brings prospects for new jobs housing and of course commercial activity. The reopening of East Land station has also improved connectivity as well as the possibility of a station at Blind Wells and further investment in sustainable transport is of course essential not only in East but across Scotland. It supports residents and businesses. Yet growth alone is not enough. We need growth that is fair that retains more wealth than local communities and it creates good jobs for local local people. Community wealth building must be more than a phrase. It must mean procurement, land, assets and of course enterprise support that so many the benefits we see investment stays in. It means ensuring that young people from our towns and villages can access the skills and apprentichips needed for the green jobs of the future whether renewables, construction, digital or care all areas of growth anywhere. I therefore welcome the program's emphasis of attracting investment backing homegrown business and my background is 20 years with the Bank of Scotland and and commercial banking. So I know how businesses grow and what they need in terms of how to do that. I urge government to ensure that regional economic strategies and local plans are properly supported with the funding flexibility and powers needed to turn ambition into delivery. And of course I think last week as mentioned in the speech that would include powers coming back to the Scottish government from the UK government. Also the role of Scottish enterprise the Scottish futures trust and the Scottish national investment bank need to be flexible to secure support where it's needed. And I'd like to see part of that discussion being taken forward by the CAPSEC and and his response if he can if he can mention that if it's possible. The city region deal has also brought substantial investment and again that's UK and Scottish governments working closely together. We've seen that about the innovation hub just last week at QMU. We need continued support for strategic sites for skill programs as local needs and of course for infrastructure such as talked about transport digital and and energy climate action and economic opportunity also go hand in hand. Eastland's landscape and its coastline are amongst our greatest assets. Protecting them while developing renewable energy, sustainable tourism, and nature-based solutions is not a contradiction. It is the only sensible path. Green jobs must be local jobs. That requires skills pipelines linked to our colleges, schools, and of course, employers. It requires planning and consensing systems that move at a pace for opportunity without sacrificing environmental standards. Now, that is part of what the Scottish government and UK government needs to look at as well. Last week I hosted an event with EDF who were talking about consenting I suppose support right across Scotland and there are issues that we need to take forward as MSPs in that regard. Housing is also an economic issue without sufficient affordable and mid-market homes. We cannot retain or attract the workforce our businesses need. Blind well and other sites have potential to deliver thousands of new homes alongside other employment opportunities. I hope the government will continue to work closely with each other council and regional partners to unlock that. Presiding officer is an economy for the future is one that works for every economy, every community in Scotland. It's one that recogniz the distinctive contribution of places like Ethan, our enterprise, our national assets and our growing population and equips them to tools to succeed. The program sets that national direction. Rec region economic strategies provide the local roadmap. I support the motion and look forward to collaborating with ministers, local partners and colleagues across the chamber to ensure that and every part of Scotland can thrive in the years ahead. Thank you. >> [applause] >> Donald McKinnon. >> Thank you, presiding officer. I welcome the Scottish government's aspirations for Scotland's economy set out by the cabinet secretary today. The ambition to promote inward investment, create sustainable jobs, and making the most of our renewable energy potential are all laudable aims. I also welcome the commitment to the rural economy. In particular, I look forward to hearing more detail around the last provider fund and how it will operate. Small businesses are the backbone of our rural economy. The services they provide keep communities functioning. But despite the warm words in the PFG, the failures of this government are already holding back the economy in my constituency. From public services that are being pushed to breaking point to a lack of affordable housing as Liam MacArthur mentioned earlier on in his constituency to the availability of child care, they are all damaging opportunities for businesses to grow. But failure in transport is perhaps the biggest threat. Problems across the West Coast ferry network were well documented in the spring, but on the sound of Harris, those are persisted. From April April to July, 214 sailings were cancelled due to technical reasons on the sound of Harris crossing. The aging MV Lock Porion, the vessel that links the Western Isles across the sound of Harris, was out of action, being re-engineed for months this spring. She returned to service in midMay, but by July, a vibration issue with her gear boxes had been identified, and she was removed from service again. Now island communities are being told that she will not be back before the end of the summer timetable in October. Only one other vessel in the Kalmarmac fleet can operate that route, the MV MV lous. When she has been required to cover other services, no vessel at all has been able to service the sound of Harris. Thankfully, the MV Glenn Sanuk, a welcome addition to the fleet, has been able to operate sailings from Loadi and Northwest to Tarbert with a passenger charter vessel operating across the sound. But this arrangement has meant that businesses in the South Harris port of Lever and the island of Bernary have been completely bypassed by vehicle traffic um traveling through the islands. The start and end of their visitor season has been marked by intense periods of ferry disruption. To add insult to injury, the 10 million pound island business resilience fund that the first minister came to the Western Isles to announce during the election campaign that he said would be delivered within 20 days of forming a government turned into a 3 million pound fund delivered within 100 days with the rest to be available over the next 5 years. That's not what island businesses were promised and it's not what island businesses need. They were promised. They were promised compensation for the disruption that has already happened to their businesses, not a promise that they should expect more chaos in the future. But it's okay because there's 7 million pounds left to cover it. The reputational damage to our islands cannot be underestimated. Unreliable ferry services have put people off traveling and our visitor economy is suffering. As new fies enter the fleet over the coming months, there needs to be an investment made in rebuilding the reputation of our islands. as a place where visitors can be confident of a holiday free from disruption. The visitor industry in our islands needs to be supported by the Scottish government to achieve this. That also needs to be supported by further investment in new vessels, including replacements for the sound of Bar and the Sound of Harris feries along with a replacement for the Lord of the Isles. The recent disruption on the Sound of Harris does not just affect tourists. It impacts businesses operating across the island chain. It impacts public services and it makes our islands a harder place to live and make a living. If the Scottish government is serious about economic growth across rural Scotland and our islands, that means investing in good, reliable transport links that communities and visitors can rely on. Thank you, >> Katy Hagman. Up to six minutes. >> Thank you, presiding officer. Last week, I spoke in this chamber about my genuine gratitude that people were the heart of our program for government, citizens over structures. And when it comes to looking at our economy, I take the same stance. Our economy must be shaped by the needs of our communities. And it is vitally important that we acknowledge the role of secure, well-paid jobs and providing highquality public services, which in turn will support our economy. While other parts of the UK have chosen to outsource and commission large parts of their public service provisions, I am proud that here in Scotland, we are committed to fair work principles and fair pay deals for our workforce. I fully acknowledge that we should look at future opportunities and these may include working with the private sector. However, we need to be clear that when it comes to our public services and building our economy, this cannot come at the cost of people. Community and fair work principles must be protected and promoted as a core tenant. I also want to acknowledge the large number of incredible businesses in my own constituency that are powering Scotland's economy. While there are too many to name, I wish to draw attention to a few. Tucked away in rural spots across Carrick, Kumnik, and Doom Valley. There are some key businesses driving our economy and significantly contributing to Scotland's economic successes. First to mention is Grant's Distillery in Gervin, a vital and essential part of our worldclass whiskey industry supporting 5.3 billion pounds worth of economic benefits within Scotland. Then over to Okin to Edgar, a wood paneling manufacturing plant supplying the trade and supporting our allimportant housing demands. I must also mention that I also have the largest aerospace hub and center of excellence in my constituency. Adding in destinations that include both our Robert Burns and Robert the Bruce Trails and sites such as Colleen Castle, the economic benefits of tourism cannot be ignored either. I truly believe that rural Scotland is the key to our economic ambitions and must be fundamental to promoting Scotland as a place to invest. Having world-class businesses is one thing, but how does that translate to our economy and our people? I wish to talk about one of the brilliant businesses, Land Energy, which is also based in Gerin. They are the UK's largest manufacturer of sustainable wood pellets, briquettes and also naturally fungi fertilizers. They prioritize local suppliers and they create local employment. Having met with the team recently, I was struck at how proud the staff were of their business. They are supplying a range of products to individuals, organizations and our NHS. They are a living wage employer and they are members of the air chamber of commerce. However, they also ensure their communities share in their success by supporting local clubs and events including the Gerventatifi Fest which sadly I was very disappointed not to attend this year. Supporting businesses is just one aspect of building a strong and sustainable economy. Alongside this, ensuring that development and regeneration projects across our communities can be delivered. And this is also crucial. While I welcome the Scottish government's intention to reform and modernize the compulsory purchase system, I believe it is vital that we that progress on compulsory sale orders is accelerated. As part of that work across Scotland, vacant and derelink buildings owned by absentee landlords continue to have a detrimental impact on our communities. Where there is a willingness from investors, community groups or the third sector to redevelop and repurpose these properties, local authorities must be provided with the appropriate levers to facilitate investment, tackle blight, and support community-led regeneration. Presiding officer, if we are serious about building a stronger economy, we must remember that economic success is not measured solely in figures on a balance sheet, but in the opportunities, security, and quality of life it delivers for our people. From worldclass manufacturers and distilleries to community-led regeneration projects, the future of Scotland's economy depends on empowering those who invest in our communities and creating the conditions for them to thrive. By supporting fair work, investing in local enterprise, and giving councils the tools they need to tackle dereliction and unlock development, we can build an economy that is not only prosperous, but one that works for everyone in every part of Scotland. >> George Adam up to six minutes. >> Thank you, presiding officer. sign officer. I've been sitting here listening to most of the debate and some of what I've been going to say has changed as I've gone along. I've listened to Liam MacArthur as always make an eloquent uh speech and tell us how there's areas that we can agree on. And I think we should have more of that when we're talking about this in the future. areas that we can actually discuss and actually kind of find common ground because I think it's too easy for everybody just to have an absolute ramy all the time within the parliament and I'm partly to blame a lot of the time for that because who doesn't like a nice we ramy now and again but the whole point is we should be focusing on what we can agree on and what we can work together but on the other hand presiding officer there's been some total belters of speeches as well you know Malcolm offered opening speech mentioned that he remembered the 1980s. As Lord offered speech continued, I started to think he might have still been in the 1980s. As he started going on about his support of extreme Thatcherism along with a wee bit of hatred for minority groups just for a wee bit of extra color. Uh but he talked about the market will deliver. Well, the market didn't deliver in the 1980s. It didn't deliver for Scotland in the 1980s. All it created here was mass unemployment in many industries and lives totally destroyed. So that is not what I want for my community's future. Presiding officer, however, what I do want to talk about in the motion of the Scottish government today is the setting out the program for government that is bold and it's progressive. Above all, it's ambitious for Scotland. And it also talks about the most important thing at its heart. It puts people at the heart of it. Make no mistake, presiding officer, while the doom and gloom merchants in the opposition benches want to drag Scotland down into a mer of Westminster's failed economic dogma, our Scottish government is rolling up its sleeves and getting on with the job. The Scottish government is building on the economy that works for real people, for hardworking families and communities right across Scotland. I want to to talk about something I think gets lost when we talk about economic growth in this chamber. For most people, economic growth isn't a line on a graph. People I know, people I've grown up with, don't see it that way. It isn't a figure in a treasury spreadsheet. It's whether they have a decent job. It's whether their wages are keeping up with the cost of living, and whether their son and daughter can get an apprenticeship, whether their town center has shops, cafes, businesses, and people are using it. These are the important facts. Presiding officer, with any debate about our economy, it's about people, our people, our friends, and our communities. But let's look at the facts. Under the Scottish government, GDP per person has grown faster than the UK as a whole. And Scotland's productivity growth has been double the UK average. For 11 years running, Scotland has been the top UK destination for foreign direct investment outside London. Scotland's a global powerhouse in life sciences and a leader in digital innovation. And what does this Scottish government program for government do? It doubles down on those strength. It sets out a clear unwavering vision. Attach attached top tier investment through a Scottish government's 1.5 billion bond program, streamlining planning with a new major projects office and backing Scotland's businesses and laying the foundations for industries in the future. The program for government sets out six priorities for growth. making Scotland a better place to invest and do business. Helping businesses to start, scale, and innovate. Connecting people to better work and building the right infrastructure and enhancing Scotland's global offer and backing growth in every region. That last point matters to me, presiding officer, because I represent Paisley. I don't want just to see economic growth concentrated in Edinburgh or Glasgow or elsewhere. I want to see the benefits of growth reaching Paisley Reference and communities right across Scotland. However, there is already a very strong economic story developing in Paisley. In Paisley, we aren't just Scotland's largest town. We're embracing the Scottish government's plan for growth, and the choices made in this program for government are going to help write the next chapter of our town's history. Take manufacturing economic transition. This program for government priorities the advanced manufacturing energy energy transition will look just down the road in Paisley in the advanced manufacturing innovation district Scotland right beside Glasgow airport in Paisley Paisley is already home to the national manufacturer institute Scotland and the medicine's manufacturer innovation center this program for government commits to cluster development high growth units and university spinout funding means more high value highskilled jobs coming to communities like mine in Paisley It secures our place in the world stage in these key industries. And look at the University of the West of Scotland right in the very heart of our historic town. UWS is not only educating the workforce for the future. Its research excellence has been turned into real businesses, real products, and real jobs. Through its research and enterprise work, the university brings academics, graduates, and entrepreneurs together, giving ambitious companies access to specialist knowledge, facilities, and support so that ideas developed in Paisley can compete across the world. I saw that myself when I visited the camp Paisley campus in July and met two outstanding UWS spinout companies. Noble Sound has taken university research and developed flexibly flexible high resolution ultrasound sensors using ranging from energy and aerospace to digital healthcare. Well fish tech is using pioneering non-lethal blood testing to transform how aquaculture industry monitors fish health technology developed in my hometown that is now serving customers at home and internationally. That is what e economic growth looks like in practice. Presiding officer, university research, excellence to nurture innovation, businesses turning knowledge into future businesses and ensuring that we move forward. And most importantly, presiding officer, look at how the program for government supports Paisley's families. We're living through the squeeze of the Westminster's cost of living crisis, but this Scottish government is is standing by them. The Scottish government's capping bus fairs at two pound across SPT area is delivering a transformational expansion of child care and moving towards universal coverage from 9 months old right up to the end of primary school starting with national primary school breakfastes. Paisley's local workforce and is boosting Paisley's local workforce and lifting children out of poverty. These aren't just words presiding officer. These are how governments can make a difference in people's lives and in famil family's future. In closing, presiding officer, the Scottish government is building a green, resilient, prosperous future. It's using every lever, every penny, and ever power that it has available to it to deliver for Scotland and to deliver for our communities. Of course, imagine what it would be like if Scotland could do this, this parliament, not fighting with one hand tied behind its back by Westminster economic mismanagement. Imagine what Paisley and Scotland could achieve with the full powers of Scottish independence and rejoining the EU and taking control of energy policy and building a tailored economy that put Scotland's people first. Presiding officer, this is a program for government rooted and ambitious and focused in delivery, creating good jobs, supporting families, and giving communities like mine the confidence to thrive. This is the future I want for my hometown, and that's what I want for Scotland. >> [applause] >> We now move on to closing speeches and I call Willie Renie. >> There's nothing like a good speech from George Adam to conclude the debate this afternoon. We've never heard of Paisley so often and it's a great thing to hear, but I think the fungy filled fertilizer was certainly the highlight of the whole debate this afternoon. But what it does show is that many members in this chamber are very proud of the businesses that they represent in their constituencies, but also they have good relationships with those businesses. Bob Doris, um, Dom McKinnon, Paul McClennon, as well as George Adam and Katie Hagman talking about the businesses that are thriving in their part of the world. And that fits in with my first point. Scotland is a good place to do business and we shouldn't talk it down. We shouldn't trash it because there are many people who do great things in this country and we should cherish it. And those who wish to say that the country is broken and business is broken, I think we should dismiss. That's not to say that there aren't issues and I'll come on to those issues in a second. But we should cherish the fact that we have got really good people who do great things in business. They've got great skills, great talents, and they are able to create good opportunities and economic growth. We have resources in this country, whether it's energy, renewable energy, oil and gas. We've also got great defense industries that do some fantastic work and defend our country. We've got secure laws and we shouldn't underestimate how important secure laws and enforcement is because not many parts of the country have that security. And those people who want to invest in this country want to know that their money will be safe and that they will be secure in their investments. And then we have a government that can make decisions to back individual businesses and areas and clusters. So all of these things we should cherish whether it's the tourism sector, energy, defense, universities, finance, sciences, food and drink. There's lots of things that were great in this country. But there are challenges and we know that Brexit has posed a significant imposition on this country and has broken trade barriers. It created trade barriers with the rest of Europe who were important traders with this country. We have great problems with our transport system where we're not managing to get the fairies operational which Donald McKinnon was talking about or building the A9 on time or the A96 or the rest and be thankful. There's a whole list of issues around about transport. the planning system is clogged up and it needs to be much smoother. We need to have a system where businesses know that if they invest in developing a site that they will get planning permission in good time and good order. And we need to have um the rates of high economic inactivity tackled. We need to make sure that the next generation in terms of young people who have got additional support needs that they're given the right support because they are the workers of the future. We've heard about the piece of performance today and we shouldn't underestimate it and John Swinny I think was wrong to just highlight all the the positive slim pickings from that analysis. We do need to recognize that we do have a challenge in the performance of our schools internationally the the perception that this country is also a high tax nation that the tax is out of control. Now, of course, we've seen the figures around about those who are moving to this country or moving away, but the behavioral change that is often hidden is something that we should reflect on as well as the impact that it's having on economic activity and the 5 billion pound financial deficit that the country is facing in just a few years time. All of those issues means that we have sluggish economic growth and that is also epitomized in the fact that we have a very slow rate of house construction. So what do we do and what do we do next? And I do recognize that Steven Flynn struck a different tone today in terms of college investment on social security on the fact he emphasized that work is good on his criticism I think for the first time of GFG Alliance and I welcome his contribution on that and then on careful regulation. But we need to do an awful lot more in terms of supporting young people at school who have got additional support needs, of driving down the rates of economic inactivity, of keeping the business of doing business simple, sometimes boring and predictable so that businesses know exactly what they can expect and that means a smoother planning process. but also invest in skills. And that comes back to my central point from the beginning that we need to invest in the skills and the talents of the people in this country because if we do not, we will not get us out of the sluggish growth that we've experiencing for many years now. Thank you. >> I call in Finley Carson. >> Thank you, presiding officer. Rural areas make up around 98% of Scotland's land mass and contribute roughly a third of our total GVA. Agriculture alone added 2.5 billion to the economy last year while shooting and conservation, agurism and farm retail each contributed around 300 million annually. Yet despite that importance, communities such as those in my constituency of Galloway and Western Freeze are too often overlooked. Their unique challenges are often ignored and the support they need is often an afterthought. And its program for government, the Scottish government pledges to continue its strong investment in agriculture in Croftton communities. However, the reality as always is rather different. The agricultural budget was cut by£16 million pounds in real terms and ministers continue to and fail to provide multi-anual funding which is fit for purpose leaving farmers without the certainty they need to plan and invest and grow their business. >> Absolutely. Right on. >> Right on Q. Thank you very much Mr. Carson for taking my intervention. 660 million has been pledged and will be delivered over the term of the next parliament with some more reforms to come that will actually see agriculture businesses rewarded for more of their activity. Does he not welcome that? >> Phil Carson. >> No, I don't because 660 million is the figure that's been quoted year on year. Realistically, what we're seeing is a flatline and a real-term reduction in that budget. But if the minister, the cabinet secretary wants to repeat that repeatedly, that's fine because it just sets out exactly how this government has failed uh farmers. The rural uh the program for government highlights the rural support plan published in March and claims that it provides clarity and certainty. However, industry responses suggest otherwise. Giving evidence at the real affairs committee last week, Professor David McCracken of SRU said that what is lacking is an actual pathway and some sense of direction regarding how schemes will change over the next 5 years. That criticism matters because the Scottish government intends to reduce support for active farming and in in real terms uh and redirect funding elsewhere. Yet active farming remains essential to food production, food security in the wider rural economy. As former NF US President Martin Kennedy told the committee, right now we are not focusing on active agriculture and that is where the frustration is. The program for government always prom also promises I will right on Q >> fairly. It's not right on Q. We rehearse this argument over and over and over again. Scotland is the only part of the UK where we continue to make direct support. We've got a rural support program which is ongoing right now which is aimed to deliver far more funding into the people who are actively farming. What has the member got against that? >> Yeah, it just falls in deaf ears. Maybe if the minister had listened to the committee meeting last week and the committee meeting in March 2025, you'd understand that he's he's talking in a echo chamber and he's not listening to what's really happening out there. I've already quoted the president NFS and I've got another uh number of quotes that will set out exactly why this government is failing. The program government doesn't set out uh uh how we can promote economic growth in the rural areas. We have no real indication of what the bill will actually deliver. Too often it feels as though ministers are reach reaching out for another consultation, another strategy or another piece of legislation instead of taking the difficult decisions and delivering practical outcomes. Rural Scotland needs action, not endless process. Indeed, during the previous parliamentary session, the government introduced a range of measures that could have proven damaging to the rural economy. One example was the proposal to require larger land holdings to be laotted before sale. That completely ignores the reality that many farming businesses need to scale up in order to remain viable and continue to support jobs and investment in rural areas. Likewise, rewelding policies, ongoing debate about reducing livestock numbers and meat consumption, and the Scottish government's refusal to embrace gene editing technology all create further uncertainty for farmers. There's another cue. >> Cabinet Secretary, >> I'm not quite sure how many times I've had to correct Finley Carson in the last session around the fact that the Scottish government has no policies in place to uh reduce livestock numbers. >> Finley Carson. >> Yeah. And once again, the cabinet secretary repeats, they've got no policies to reduce, but they've got no policies to ensure that the livestock numbers are maintained. No policies whatsoever. No, I won't. I need to make progress. I think there's a requirement for members to treat each other with respect. And the minister saying I'm talking nonsense certainly isn't a good example of that. Maybe maybe the minister needs to listen a little bit more to the industry rather than blindly defending his government's position. The picture is made worse by cut to capital funding within the rural affairs budget. That cannot be denied. Farmers need support to invest in modern equipment and technology that can improve productivity while reducing costs and environmental impacts. Food security must be a greater priority. Scotland needs more local abattoars, stronger local supply chains, and a greater focus on promot promoting Scottish produce rather than relying on uh imports. We should be encouraging more people into agriculture, not making the industry less attractive through uncertainty and a lack of long-term vision. We should also make better use of Scotland's natural resources. Venison is a high quality nutritious sustainable product that is available in abundance and we need to play more attention to the great role that can play and the role of public procurement including in our schools. >> Rachel Hamilton >> taking the intervention. Uh 23 organizations across retail, rural and farming have criticized the S&P's plan for a cap on food prices. Does Finley Carson agree with me that this could be entirely detrimental and and impact the rural economy severely? >> Carson, >> absolutely. I think we've got a policy here that once again uh was all about making announcements, but I could say that it was ill thought through, but it's not been thought through at all. Uh there's there's very little chance that this is going to be delivered. It was another giveaway at election time. Um but that the concerns do remain about the impact of recent registration on countryside sports and land management. While insufficient attention uh and and indeed funding has been given to the fishing sector despite its contribution of almost 400 million to the economy and the thousands of jobs it support. Many of these policies may be well intended but I fear that there are commumulative impact on the e economic viability of rural Scotland is not being properly considered. Those concerns are shared by others across the sector. Donna Smith of the Croftton Federation told the Rural Affairs Committee last week that Croffter shared the frustration over the real lack of any kind of indication of where we are heading. In conclusion, presiding officer, the need of rural Scotland have too often been secondary to the priorities of this government. Food production is now too often placed behind environmental targets. Economic prosper prosper pro prosperity is often too often sacrificed in pursuit of ideological objectives and the realities of living and work in remote and rural communities are of too often forgotten. Perhaps that explains why rural Scotland continues to face depopulation, declining opportunities and growing difficulties in accessing essential services. Presiding officer, if we want thriving rural communities, a strong rural economy, and greater food security, we need a renewed focus on active sustainable agriculture, productive land use, and the people who live and work in rural Scotland every day. >> Mark Ruscll, >> thank you, presiding officer. Well, I think Steven Flynn set out the objective, I guess, at the start of this debate. Well-paid jobs in every corner of Scotland. I don't think anybody could disagree with that, but clearly we don't have an agreement on how we get there, what needs to change to deliver that. But I do think the prime minister's ambitious rhetoric over the summer was important because we've been waiting for a Labour leader for a very long time to talk about neoliberalism, to talk about the failures of the last 40 years. is and it'll be interesting to see whether you know a new Scottish labor leader is also prepared to adopt that same analysis and apply perhaps some of those fixes as well because I think George Adams right I mean communities across central Scotland were absolutely battered in the 1980s neoliberalism has been a failure in most areas of our economy and you know communities feel I think across Scotland that they increasingly do not have a meaningful stake in the economy they are not able to direct the economy. They're not able to direct their own futures. Liam MacArthur talked about island proofing and perhaps the expectation the islands bill was going to bring more of that conversation into island communities, but it hasn't. It hasn't really delivered. Daniel Johnson talked about the importance of pushing powers down. Then he didn't mention mayors in that context, but I'd be interested to hear more from Labor about what they meaningfully believe pushing powers down will actually deliver. Casey Hagman talked about citizens over structures and I think it's important that people are able to be part of the conversations. So I'll give you an example. This week I'll be meeting with community councils surrounding uh the Moss Morren site have a stake in the future uh of that site in F and we'll be discussing the economic future. We'll be talking about legacy. will be talking about skills and we'll be talking about the kind of operators that they would like to see come to Moss Morren and invest in the area and I am concerned because at the moment much of the conversation about the future of the economy in Fe and the future of Moss Morren has been a conversation between Scottish enterprise the plant operators and potential investors including data center developers I don't feel at this point reassured that communities and unions have been meaningfully involved in that planning around what the future of that part of F looks like and I think it's absolutely clear that we need to see more public control because public control of our services does work. We've seen that with municipalization of bus services in the Highlands in Sterling and hopefully to come in Strath Clyde as well. And as a result of that municipalization and community control of services, we've seen improvements in services, new services being started, better timetabling, more patronage. So it's clear that done right, public control and public involvement in the delivery of services can work. And there are great models from across the UK of how that's done. Yeah. >> Heni speak to the thank the member for giving way. does not speak to the wider fiscal challenge that by taking equity stakes and public control in corporations that generate money for the public good that grows the tax base it grows the revenue base sorry of the Scottish government >> Mark Ruscoll >> absolutely and it's that virtuous cycle of reinvestment in public services that benefit us all and if that results in more um profitable and more successful public services that meets the public needs then that virtuous circle just continues and continues I mean notwithstanding that I recognize the crashes. I think we were all at the public finances um seminar yesterday and and bits of it were sobering. Although I was particularly proud of the fact that the changes in tax that the Greens brought in through a budget deal have actually resulted in one half billion pounds of extra services, investment in services every year. Um but I recognize there's still a gap there. I recognize that public service reform is inevitable. We've also got other challenges though within our economy. So AI is being talked about very positively in the chamber this afternoon, but of course it is changing the labor market. It is changing the opportunities that are available particularly for young people to take their first jobs in industry. And then of course who can ignore the climate change? Well, climate change and the climate crisis. Well, unfortunately I think most speakers have this afternoon apart from Paul McClennon who I think gave a very good speech. But I would also just point to the economic impact um sorry the the impact on the economy of climate change. If you look at the impact uh in the national park in the Kangors as a result of the wildfires uh this summer this is just a hint of the economic impact to come because of climate change and it's clear that climate impacts harm productivity. Climate impacts contribute to higher inflation. They put pressure on public finances and climate risks actually slow growth. So, it's disappointing that the PFG program for government is weak on climate. There isn't a transformative mission at the heart of the PFG, for example, on home heating uh that will create jobs, that will tackle the crisis, that will lower emissions. I was surprised not to hear any uh speaker this afternoon talk about the well-being economy. I thought this was uh a legacy from Nicholas Sturgeon that members of the SNP were particularly proud about and it feels that right now we should be doubling down on that vision of a well-being economy, fair and inclusive work, gender equality within our economy, fair taxation, investment in communities and an economy that operates within the ecological limits of our climate and our environment. And you only got to look at the issue of hypers scale AI data centers. Of course, hypers scale AI data centers will deliver GDP economic growth. They'll they'll deliver growth and wealth for speculative developers. >> Yeah. >> Seeking planning permissions for the operating companies and bizarrely even the environmental impact of hypers scale AI data centers will increase GDP. But where are the well-being economy tests here with the government? Where is the test around the lack of jobs that these data centers will will deliver? uh where is the failure? Where is their assessment of their failure to reinvest back into the communities that are hosting them? The Scottish government really need to get a grip on the growth of these data centers, define what is a responsible investment in Scotland. And while they're waiting to do that, they should hit the pause button on approving any more because, you know, Stephen uh Flynn said that regulation uh needs to be simple, but it needs to be as a last resort. I mean, I I disagree. I think regulation can drive innovation while it also protects people on the planet. And right now, uh, cabinet secretary, AI data centers really need that appropriate level of regulation. It needs to come sooner, uh, than later. Presiding officer, I think I'm nearing the end of my of my time. So, what I will say is that, you know, we have a potential for an incredible >> We have got time. So, you may finish your speech. >> Okay. Thank you very much. Um, I think if I can just Did the cabinet secretary want to come in on that? No. Okay. Uh um I think I've noticed that the cabinet secretary uh covers the environment and rural affairs is also um with us this afternoon, but it's been, you know, noticeable that we've had very few reflections on on the environment. And I I would really just well I know the cabinet secretary is about to speak, but if the cabinet Yes. So maybe cabinet secretary will come around to that. I would though circle back though to the importance of putting communities at the heart of this government's action on the nature emergency as well. Uh I visited a number of projects that have been funded in communities by the nature restoration fund over the summer. um from Strath Fillain where the community is involved in large-scale asset transfer, the forestry and woodland um you know through to uh Lock Allen where the rural affairs committee visited over the summer where we saw really ambitious coastal restoration projects and I would say that that work is is really leading leading the way in Scotland and it's creating jobs and it's creating opportunities for communities. But the the message that we've been getting continually is where is that long-term commitment to funding? So, communities are starting projects. They're starting uh ambitious work which is benefiting the economy and benefiting the communities and environment, but they don't have that long-term commitment through the nature restoration fund. So, I would ask the cabinet secretary uh to to reflect on that and ensure that communities are at the heart of the nature recovery work that we're doing as well. Um, I think the final thing I would I would say uh, presiding officer is that, you know, we have the potential for a vibrant future economy in Scotland, one which is fair, a real well-being economy. And it'll be interesting to see if if the cabinet secretary is prepared to use that language in summing up as a as a as a sturgeonite perhaps she will. Um, but it but it but it's clear that it's clear that there are big challenges that we need to address. We need to get this right. We need to get this right in terms of our approach to uh potential threats like AI. We need to empower communities. We need to put people at the heart of delivering of public services. And I think that that is where we on these benches still have questions about whether this government is ambitious enough in actually putting people and planet first. >> I call Duncan Massie. >> Thank you, Deputy Presiding Officer. Well, it's been an interesting debate. Uh I think there have been points of agreement. I do welcome the fact that again we're at least talking about growth which uh seems to have been missing from this parliament and certainly from S&P administrations for a very long time. But I do fear however that this continuity Scottish government just cannot deliver. It just doesn't understand the issues and it will keep imposing high taxes and myriad regulation. It will keep on imposing Soviet style dictats like food price caps, minimum alcohol pricing, and centralized control well of nearly everything. So again, my fear rather than the growth that's set out in our document, what we will actually get will look more like 1960s Albania now complete with breadcues. Because we know Scotland today faces stagnant growth causing stagnant wasted wages and resulting in far too few opportunities for people especially young people. That's the national failure and it's one that must be addressed by growth coupled with jobs and benefits reform. And of course, it's hard to drive growth and jobs when we are crushing one of our key industries, crushing our North Sea oil and gas industry with deliberate policy choices. I am pleased that the jack door gas field looks set to go ahead. However, let's be clear. It's the bare minimum needed to revive our industry. And the dither and delay from Labor and Tory governments over these consents along with S&P's presumption against new oil and gas has been hugely damaging for the industry. I will take an intervention. >> Patricia Gibson, >> for taking an intervention, I'm just thinking I'm just wondering if Mr. Massi has considered given that everything is so awful according to him how he can explain why it is that more taxpayers continue to move to Scotland from the rest of the UK than leave Scotland. Um surely that is at odds with the idea that everything is just terrible here. Duncan Mi >> I think you'll find that the tax base is declining even if the numbers are increasing. But in case in caseing with the important argument that I'm making about oil and gas, I want to use this opportunity to call on the UK government to urgently approve other pro projects like Rosebank as well as backing new exploration so that we can maximize our own resources whilst reducing imports and overall emissions. And that ensures that we protect jobs, protect tax revenue, and protect energy security. And I call on this S&P government to back this as well. This parliament needs to be a champion for our oil and gas industry if we want a strong industry going forward. And I do hope the cabinet secretary agrees. Yes, I would. >> Paul McClennon. >> Thank you, Sign Officer. I mentioned in my speech talking about energy and climate intelligence unit saying there was 1500 green jobs in his loading and that's continuing to to grow. Does he not understand the rhetoric coming from his party and his colleagues are harming these prospects in my community and in my area >> Duncan Massie and we do have time in hand so you can respond. >> I disagree with that and I'm coming to energy uh because of course I will answer that. I will answer that. Of course, another core reason for the lack of growth is the cost of our energy. And despite the Saudi Arabia style rhetoric that we're hearing, uh what we have is a failing system that is driving an ever more fragile grid dependent on huge UK government subsidies and driving some of the highest energy costs in the world, especially our energy, industrial energy prices. And that is causing huge cost of living challenges and of course driving huge damage to all our industries and many businesses. And let's talk about jobs because it seems to me that this government is becoming increasingly desperate on the lack of renewable jobs that are coming through. And that's in terms of job numbers, location of jobs because they're not happening in the northeast. and the pay of these jobs which are much lower than equivalent industries that are being replaced. ONS numbers say around 16,200 direct renewables jobs in Scotland and that's great and we support uh renewables in the energy mix but that's versus around 90,000 in the upstream oil and gas industry. So we need to have a perspective. Renewables are a welcome part of the mix, but they're are not a replacement for our current energy industries. And of course, if we look at some of the, you know, wider infrastructure like our fantastic prochemical infrastructure plants like Grangemouth, uh there are real risks to operations going forward because feed stocks will become more and more dependent on ethane imports from the US. So Britain and Scotland, we need cheap, abundant, reliable energy and that's going to be best delivered by maximizing our oil and gas over the medium term, transitioning to nuclear power over the longer term with renewables playing a complimentary role rather than a dominant one. So to conclude, presid deputy presiding officer, as we outlined earlier, it's now time for a reset. We need to build a wealth economy instead of a welfare economy. To build a new modern Scotland which produces which builds prosperity for all through well-p paid and meaningful jobs rather than welfare. To create a joined up industrial strategy for Scotland based around our 10 natural worldclass industries. And with the five key policy areas being cheaper energy, lower taxes, skills and retraining, real deregulation, and less of the performance performative gimmicks. Ultimately, our goal should be clear. We must build a Scotland where young people, whether pursuing a trade or a profession, an apprenticeship or a degree, can secure a good job, earn a decent wage, afford a home, take a holiday, and raise a family. That is the promise of a growing economy. That is what reform seeks to deliver. I would ask members to support our amendment. Thank you. Paul Sweeney. >> Thank you, Deputy Resigning Officer, and I second the amendment in the name of my friend, member for Edinburgh Southern. Um, this afternoon, we've heard an interesting uh debate about headline growth, but also more interestingly, some of the more holistic issues we need to do to address fair economic growth, the kind that builds up local economies, joins up education with industry, and embeds fair work to weather climate change. We too often pass legislation on say land reform or community wealth building in this legislature with high-minded rhetoric only to watch radical ideas get watered down into administrative burdens for cashstrapped councils and bus franchise franchising as was mentioned by Mr. Harvey is an obvious example of this taking far too long and way behind other British cities in the case of Glasgow and indeed by introducing the fair cap which is welcomed it's simply doubling down on corporate subsidy rather than taking public control in the truest sense we need to speed this up >> yes I have to give way >> the member will know that I support regulation of Strath Clyde buses I'm just wondering if the members have a perspective that the more public money goes into the bus system the more we can extract in behalf of Strath Clyde when we bring in that regulation. >> Paul Sweeney, >> it's a very good point and it speaks to Mr. Ruscoll's point about a virtuous cycle. If we can extend public control of the fairbox and Strath Clyde that will supercharge our ability to run subsidized services where there isn't profitable routes for example or extend the frequency of bus services. So it's an important part and actually as the center for cities has identified if Glasgow can catch up with other European cities of now size the entire Scottish economy would be around 4% bigger. So it's a huge prize to be won if we can get it right. And that's particularly crucial because as the government knows they are facing a 2.6 billion pound resource deficit and a2.1 billion pound capital deficit by 2030. So managing this fiscal gap through consolidation alone risk repeating the disruptive mistakes of austerity that we saw from 2012 onwards. And to grow revenue we must acknowledge also the fundamental role of large domestically anchored firms in our economy. major corporate headquarters drive regional supply chains, research and development and build our tax base. So without them, our macroeconomic output is undermined and eroded. And the Scottish government's own figures from just last month expose the vulnerability of our economy. Only a fifth of Scottish businesses actually export at all. Because we rely so heavily on a shrinking pool of large firms to carry that burden, the loss of domestic corporate leadership is catastrophic. is exactly why our manufacturing exports have collapsed by 15% in real terms since 2018. And this is the cost of losing half of our major independent publicly listed company headquarters in Scotland over the last 30 years. Titans like Scottish Power, Scottish and Newcastle and Christian Salverson, all hollowed out by foreign takeovers. And this barely features in the public debate. But without these domestic anchors, Scotland operates increasingly like an extractive enterprise for foreign multinationals. In 2021, the gap between our gross domestic product and our gross national income revealed that 36.5 billion pounds was extracted from our economy to overseas shareholders. International capital is too often favored over domestic public value as we regularly hear from uncritical sighting of foreign direct investment statistics like we heard from the member for Paisley and the member for Kelvin and Mary Hill in Glasgow. We only need to look at our ship building heritage as was mentioned earlier to see the historic cost of a lack of joined up industrial planning in Scotland. In the 1980s, a senior civil servant warned that the chairman of the state-owned British ship builders corporation that Margaret Thatcher wanted rid of ship building. And that crusade culminated in 1988 when the industry minister, Kenneth Clark, decided over dinner uh to turn off state support for the ship building industry, prompting the chairman to turn up at a colleague's door asking for a bottle of whiskey to toast that it was all over. And as one yard director noted at the time, just as British ship builders was becoming effective, it was terminated. And today, other European countries, principally France, Germany, and Italy, dominate an industry in Europe worth 92 billion euros and employing over 350,000 people. Today, reforms leader pedled that same hands-off dogma, and there wasn't much detail from the cabinet secretary about what it would do in the government to improve industrial planning. Uh, when our Scottish engineering champion and wood group was recently faced with a foreign takeover, the Scottish minister sat on their hands and did nothing about it. And this paralysis is most absurdly demonstrated by handing half a billion pounds in taxpayer funded ship building contracts to overseas shipyards in Turkey and in Poland. And as my colleague, the member for Neil and mentioned the recent procurement for the Lord of the Isles ferry was excluded British shipyards from bidding at all. So we have to look at what other countries are doing and benchmark against in contrast what's happening here with Spain's tax leasing regime which is levering accelerated depreciation to provide a 20% subsidy for domestic shipyards while our government treats procurement as an isolated transaction nations like Spain are using statebacked finance to guarantee domestic work. We should be using the Scottish National Investment Bank to de-risk projects for our own shipyards not exporting capital and importing finished ships. So where the Scottish government does intervene also it is often halfbaked and disastrously misjudged. As we heard from the member for Northeast Faith in 2015 ministers brokered the sale of the DL steel works in Motherwell to Sanjie Gupta with an unpaid 7 million pound loan um also for an aluminium wheel factory that never materialized in the highlands. Now DL is paralyzed by cash shortages unable to roll 34,000 tons of steel plate for the new royal auxiliary ships being built in Belfast. Instead of propping up letting these dodgy magnates hold these key assets hostage, we could be aggressively backing a green steel plant there with an electric art furnace to feed our shipyards and their offshore wind sector. Perhaps the reform of compulsory purchase orders and compulsory sale orders that the member for Carrick come up doing valley mention could be deployed in favor of our industries as well as our high streets. So we must reclaim our industrial and municipal ambition in Glasgow, a city built in worldclass engineering and bold municipal enterprise. We know true economic strength is generated locally and retained publicly. We need an industrial strategy that backs our domestic engineering base, leverages public procurement for local supply chains, and ensures our infrastructure serves the public good. We cannot settle for a branch plant economy. We must build Scotland economy in a way which retains its wealth for the communities who generate it. Thank you. I call on the cabinet secretary to wind up the debate and we'd be grateful if the cabinet secretary could take us just up to before decision time. >> Thank you, presiding officer. And for those of you that have been waiting for um uh the climate aspect of things, the rural aspect of things, and there's been a number of people uh in in the the debate that have alluded to quite a lot of the economic growth potential, particularly in climate action. I'm going to concentrate my remarks largely on that but obviously um make mention of some of the points in in the debate here and I'm really grateful for all the contributions and I think there's also been a bit of a philosophical debate on what is e economic growth you know Mark Ruskll um I'm not an anything out actually you know but I'm I'm I'm I'm just somebody that wants to see a successful country for for the everyone that lives in Scotland and if that's the well-being economy then that's the well-being economy I mean I think We all know countries where you've got um high GDP and you've got um um um large companies, you've got billionaires with like nine yachts, is it or or or whatever. And and that's a sort of marker of economic success, but it's not a marker of economic success if you've got kids going hungry. It's not a marker of success if you've got town centers depleted. You've got people that can't get work or or don't have opportunities. that is is if that's a well-being economy then I'm you know I I I I I want I want that and and of course um that doesn't that doesn't m that doesn't make me a character from Dr. Shivago uh to Duncan Massie is painting us as you know wanting to see that everyone in our country gets the the fruits and the benefits of economic growth. It's been some kind of like communism. That's absolutely ridiculous. And actually at the end of Duncan Massie's speech, he actually pointed to what actually a well-being economy is. Um which I was I was really pleased to hear from from Mr. Massie because he talked about what it would mean for the ordinary families. And our program for government sets out a clear plan of action we'll take over the next five years for sustainable economic growth. Sustainable economic growth that is going to be benefiting people, providing jobs, providing opportunities for our young people, but also progress on our climate commitments because e economic growth that benefits people and communities across Scotland and provide well-paid jobs also goes handinhand as Paul McClennon says with a lot of the activities associated with the transition. Um you know Duncan Massie mentioned that the 90 90,000 jobs associated with oil and gas and my own family has benefited very much from from that industry. Um many of them have wor worked in it but 90,000 um jobs was the peak at 2014 and we know the trajectory is is slowing down. So we need to make sure we need to make sure that there are the jobs for the for now the transition and the future. Um, and we need to make sure that we're also we're less reliant on burning fossil fuels for all our civic e activities because we've seen in the last well the last year what that's meant for like the my constituents and many constituents in rural areas who've got oil fired gas heating out the back what that does to rely on that kind of heating um means that you are subject to to global geopolitical uh situations. I will. >> Paul, >> thank you. Thank for giving. We just to address the point I made earlier about firms. Um, does she not regret that the Scottish government didn't do more to try and preserve the independence of Wood Group as an independently headquartered large Scottish company? >> Well, this this gives me gives me an opportunity to to share Mr. Flynn and my bewilderment about that. I mean, it was was Mr. Sweeney asking that we nationalize Wood Group? Um, I'm I'm not quite sure what he wanted us to do. I'll go back I'll go back to some of the the the contributions. And now what I really liked about some of the speeches that I heard today is the fact that is the fact that we um members brought in other interventions in the program for government that actually are going to have an economic impact. And Patricia Gibson um and George Adam both made the case about the economic um potential of child care. And I one of my favorite stories is about Yen Stolenberg who was the Norwegian prime minister and he was asked by the Washington Post what's the secret to Norway's economic success and the journalist was expecting a response that was oil and gas and he didn't say that. He said oh we've made childcare free so that we've increased women's participation in the economy and that's the secret of our economic success and that's always stuck with me. So those might look like a social intervention or educational intervention has an e economic input as well and I was really pleased to hear Patricia Gibson and George Adam refer to that as well. Um Katie Hagman and Patrick Harvey also pointed out the lack of powers in employment law and the impact that would have on fair work if we had those powers here as well. And I think that that's really important particularly we talk about that well-being economy. Um the insecure work has grown since 2011. That's not me saying that's a TU. And the types of jobs associated with that insecurity are care, leisure, hospitality disproportionately affecting female workers. Yes, I will. I'm uh I'm very grateful if I'm being called uh for the cabinet secretary giving way. The the point I was making was twofold. that yes, there are constraints in the devolution settlement that don't allow us to take hard measures, but also that there are things the Scottish government could be doing within those limits. Does the cabinet secretary agree that the Scottish government ought to work constructively with the trade union movement to help drive up union membership in under unionized sectors like hospitality because that's a way of uh making sure that we bring about a change in the power balance within parts of the economy where it's hurting people. >> Yeah, I I mean I I I agree I would agree with that sentiment. I think the Scottish government's done an awful lot of work with the ST on this in particular. Um, I want to go back to uh some of the the comments that others have have made as well. I mean, Bob Doris rightly challenged Rachel Hamilton on the need to reform the fiscal framework to give Scottish government and parliament more scope on fiscal levers as well. and and and I I I think that's you know again in the round has an impact on the economy but economic growth Malcolm offered made some assertions about economic growth uh between um you know the the the the parameters of the dates that he mentioned economic growth between 1990 and 2024 grew 68.5% in real terms and that was at the time that we set our net zero targets as well And I think that says a a story. Scotland's economy grew by 68.5% in real terms at the same time as we cut our greenhouse gas emissions by more than half. Now that is a fact and it also speaks to the fact that economic growth is not just GDP. Scotland's I won't won't Mr. Ma massi we have competitive advantages in key se sectors and offshore energy supply chains financial professional services associated with them huge infrastructure investment in our electricity grid and networks that are going to sustain thousands of jobs across Scotland and unlock significant investment that will see businesses form and grow and that is the that that that's the the fact of the if you are turning your back in any of the actions associated with climate action and the drive to net zero though you're turning your back on that growth potential. The direct financial benefits of delivering all of the policies in the climate change plan is estimated at over 42 billion pounds to the Scottish economy over the period to 2040. and adaptation measures like infrastructure investments in utilities, wellp prevention, flood defenses are critical, will provide jobs I won't just now and in themselves contribute between six and 7 billion pounds to the economy over the next year. And Mark Ruskll also made the point that they will save money as well. The wildfire devastation that we've seen not just in Scotland but across of the UK has had real economic impact on communities and net zero related industries already support 10.2 billion in gross value added in Scotland. That's 4.9% of the total economic output and over 100,000 full-time equivalent jobs across Scotland. And I was very pleased to hear some of the examples from people's constituencies, members constituencies. Um, and and Katie Hagman mentioned the organic fertilizer from land energy in her constituency. And again, that is a resilience issue as well. We have manufacturers in Scotland that are looking at organic fertilizers. That means that the cost of fertilizer is not impacted by the oil price and indeed adventures in the straight of Hormuz. And we need to see more of that happening in Scotland. And uh we need to make out make sure that we're more resilient in that in that way. Our 200 million billion energy infrastructure pipeline represents a long-term flow of capital investment across multiple regions and multiple regions not just in northeast where I'm from where the energy industry has been vibrant for many many decades. The investment in renewables and the investment in in in new lowcarbon technologies is going to take place across the whole of Scotland. The whole of Scotland are going to benefit from the the the revolution that we'll see in lowcarbon energies. But of course, Scotland's vast energy wealth must benefit the people of Scotland. We've seen 400 billion pounds in revenues from the North Sea have gone directly to the UK government's Treasury coffers and that's why we formally requested the devolution of energy powers from the UK government to the Scottish Parliament. George Adam went a tad further of course and rightly said that all powers should be brought to the Scottish uh government and parliament and we should have our independence. But our economy must deliver for every part of Scotland. As I said, we're investing 1.9 billion over the next 10 years in regional growth deals to unlock uh economic potential across the whole of Scotland. I want to say a little bit about what Liam MacArthur has talked about and how we can be looking at potential planning reforms and how we must treat our rural and our island businesses and economic growth differently because there are different stresses and pressures but also there are different opportunities in that space and that's the kind of conversations I want to have about the rural renewal bill and indeed I want to feed into planning reforms about how we can make economic growth in our island communities and our rural communities Please surge. I will if I have time. Presiding officer taking an intervention from >> Liam MacArthur. >> There's two people asking to come in. >> Thank the cabinet secretary um for taking the intervention and for her her comments. is not I I suppose a matter for her as a government minister but the point I was making about the need for post- legislative scrutiny of the islands act 10 years on is that something that in the generality um she would support as a principle because I think it's fairly clear that promises in relation to future legislation um are going to be easier to stack up if there's confidence that a legislation has already been passed is actually doing what it said on the tin >> cabinet secretary >> well obviously there's post legislative scrut is looking at the actual legislation itself, but there's other things that we can do without having to change legislation. And I'm keen to do them, particularly with the rural renewal bill and particular interventions and the rest rest of government around planning reforms that might make things uh less less difficult, bring down some of the barriers to economic growth. Um I will I will wind up now presiding officer. I'm determined to deliver climate action in a way that supports thriving local communities, businesses, and households. I am very pleased that I was asked to wind up this debate along with my colleague Steven Flynn because climate action is a blueprint for economic growth and I am convinced of that and I think it's shown today in some of the contributions indeed the the the way that we have worked together to talk about our economic growth opportunities also speaks to our climate ambitions as well with a once in a generation opportunity for transformation that not just won't just reduce emissions but will en ensure that our economy prospers and if we don't grasp the opportunities of this other countries will we will grasp these opportunities with both hands and in 10 15 20 years we will have a more energy secure country we'll have a more prosperous country and we have one that will be playing our part in addressing climate change thank you >> thank you cabinet secretary that concludes the debate on program for government and economy fit for the future item of business is consideration Point of order, Julie McDougall. >> Thank you, presiding officer. Um, I just wanted to formally give an apology um to yourself and the chamber. I opened the debate last Thursday on behalf of reform and um I wasn't here for the closing speeches. It won't happen again. Thank you. >> Thank you very much for that. It's appreciated. Sorry, button is now working. The next item of business is consideration of two parliamentary bureau motions. I call on Jamie Hburn on behalf of the parliamentary bureau to move motions 1097 on committee membership and 1098 on substitution on committees. >> Move presiding officer. >> The question on these motions will put at decision time and we now move to decision time. There are seven questions to be put as a result of today's business and can advise members that if the amendment in the name of Patrick Harvey is agreed to, the amendment in the name of Rachel Hamilton will fall. The first question is amendment 1070.1 in the name of Daniel Johnson which seeks to amend motion 171070 in the name of Steven Flynn on program for government and economy fit for the future be agreed. Are we all agreed? >> We are not agreed. Therefore, we'll move to a vote. There'll be a short suspension members to access the digital voting system.