Debate: Preventing Violence Against Women for an Equally Safe Scotland - 15 September 2026

from backbench questions to the first minister. The next item of business is a debate on motion 1163 in the name of John Swinny on preventing violence against women for an equally safe Scotland. Members wishing to speak should press the request to speak buttons now and I call John Swinny to speak to and move the motion. 13 minutes please. First Minister >> Presiding Officer, throughout my service as a minister in the Scottish government, I've been involved in and have supported many measures to tackle violence against women and girls. But this summer, I felt increased priority and leadership had to be given to address this situation. That has led me to pledge my personal leadership to tackle the epidemic of violence against women and girls in Scotland. In recent weeks, I met with victim survivors like Danielle Macdonald, a survivor of domestic abuse who now campaigns for change. And with Anne Grant, the mother of Stacy Hunter, who was tragically murdered by her estranged husband. I was deeply affected by their stories, by the unconscionable things they went through at the hands of their former partners, and by their courage and their resilience. I've made it my priority to meet with other victim survivors and with organizations like Rape Crisis Scotland, Scottish Women's Aid and Ingender. I heard directly from the survivors, their families and support groups so I could better understand their experience and learn what more we can do as a government, but importantly as a society to combat violence against women and girls, which I called this summer an epidemic of violence. I've also just had the privilege over the just before parliamentary business commenced this afternoon to engage with survivors of violence against violence against women and girls and representatives of the Sunday post its time campaign at the invitation of Russell Finley and I'm grateful for the opportunity to have had that exchange prior to the parliamentary debate this afternoon. I want to make clear in this debate today my commitment and the urgency I feel to act on this issue and I invite others to join with me. I do this both as the first minister and also as a man because it is men who commit this violence. It is men whose behavior needs to change. We can address areas of criminal justice but we need to address the fundamental issues that underpin some men abusing, controlling and committing atrocities on women. We must change and challenge the attitudes and behaviors that underpin and lead to such violence. The sexism, misogyny, and toxic mas masculinity that is prevalent in society and especially online. In online spaces and on social media, views that are unacceptable, even abhorrent in the mainstream and in our communities are given a platform and an audience with the help of algorithms and echo chambers and bad faith actors and with an utter absence of regulation. These views are amplified. They are made easy to access, forever within reach through computers and the phones in people's pockets alongside an endless supply of nasty rhetoric, exploitative images and pornographic content. In such an environment, it is easy for men and boys, some of whom are impressionable, isolated, angry, scared, or vulnerable in any number of ways, to be saturated by cognitive distortions and misogynistic rhetoric, and not to see a counter to that, not to see an alternative. In this way, violent, abusive, and abhorentt behavior can feel justified and normalized. But it is not justifiable. It is not the norm. It never will be. And I cannot stress that point enough to parliament today. Presiding officer, this is what I say today is not to vilify men or boys. It is to recognize the extent to which certain arenas such as the manosphere and accessible pornography have warped views and attitudes in disturbing and profoundly harmful ways. It is to recognize the impacts those attitudes are having on our society and on our culture. Impacts that lead to violent, exploitative, and abusive behaviors with very real and very dangerous consequences for women and for girls. And it's to recognize the challenge that we as a society have adapting to new threats in a quickly changing, increasingly online world. And as a society, what we are up against. Presiding officer, I and my government unequivocally and emphatically condemn violence against women and girls in all its forms and we want to ch change and challenge the behaviors that underpin it in our society. That is what my motion today states. And I thank those party leaders who have joined me in signing that motion to show one voice that it is up to all of us as a society to challenge these distortions, the warped views, the manosphere and the misogyny that perpetuate violence against women and girls. It is up to all of us to challenge the view held by some that violence against women and girls is somehow inevitable or excusable. It is not inevitable and it is never excusable. Of course, >> Willy Renie, >> I I wholeheartedly endorse his remarks so far. This is uncomfortable sometimes because sometimes it's our friends and our neighbors and our work colleagues that say these things and it's too easy just to back off and say nothing and let it pass. So, this can be intensely personal. So, it's good that political leaders stand up, but I think everybody has got a responsibility in those moments to say that's not good enough. Please withdraw what you've said and have a bit more respect. Would he endorse those comments? >> First minister, >> presiding officer, I would endorse those comments because I think Mr. Reni accurately highlights the the prevalence of these moments and these circumstances and also the obligation on all of us to address that. And I think we are at a moment where the realization that some of these remarks that are made may seem um insignificant at a particular moment but none of us know what the consequences of those actions can be at a later stage. So Mr. Renie makes a timely intervention and I endorse it entirely in what he has said. Preser my government is committed to addressing the root causes, the cultural causes of gender-based violence, to promoting positive attitudes, to building people's knowledge and skills, to increasing understanding of the impact of violence, and to supporting people to build better, healthier, and more sustainable relationships throughout their lives. Ultimately, we are committed and we recognize the importance of doing this of shifting the cultural context and preventing violence from occurring in the first place. This means taking a public health preventative approach to this issue. And like all good prevention, early intervention is critical. That is why we will we will invest in programs like equally safe at school and mentors in violence prevention to help children and young people to challenge harmful stereotypes and to build respectful consensual relationships. As we stated in our program for government in the coming year we will complement these programs with a multi-year public health campaign aimed at boys and young men to challenge misogyny and harmful behaviors before they escalate. Michael Chapman. >> Yes, >> I I am grateful to the first minister for taking my intervention. I I think what he has proposed and laid out in the PFG is welcome on this. But one thing that the providers of such public health uh support tell us they need time and time again is not only multi-year funding but inflation um inflation matched funding over successive years. Otherwise they effectively face uh funding cuts and cannot deliver what we are hoping they will deliver in terms of the prevention work that is so vital in this area. >> First minister, >> I understand that point from Maggie Chapman and these are issues that the deputy first minister is wrestling with in relation to the government's budget. But the point I I set out some commitments in relation to long-term funding, but the point about um the the impact of the erosion of inflation is an important point that the deputy first minister um is considering in the budget discussions to address the urgent dangers and distortions of um that are created by a culture affected by misogyny. We have to tackle much of the output that is undertaken online. We will, and I reinforce this point openly today, work constructively with the United Kingdom government and with international partners to push strongly for a muchneeded strengthening of the regulation of online platforms to prevent violence against women and girls in digital spaces. It's time for online platforms to take responsibility and to ensure that their output is within that addresses these concerns. and if they won't take responsibility, governments must make them. We will also continue to grow our suite of prevention activity with a particular focus on schools. We are right now evaluating where and how this work can be most effective, where it should be tailored to local need and how we can best equip those who work with young people with the right tools and language to make a difference in a swiftly changing environment. The public health approach, addressing norms and attitudes, is the right approach, the lasting one. It needs sustained focus and drive and I assure Parliament of the determination of the government to do that. As we offer that, we must all be aware that violence against women and girls goes on around us every day, physical, psychological, and online. Recent data shows there's been an increase in reported violent crimes against women and girls. We recognize that a number of factors lie behind these increases such as historic reporting, a greater willingness of victims to report crimes and a justice system will listen that will listen and take those cases to court so that perpetrators face the law. I can >> I will of course give >> Steven car >> I accept in good faith everything that the first minister has said today. But does he also accept that the leadership that he wishes to give must also mean restraining dangerous men? Will he therefore restore the stronger bail protections for repeat violent and sexual offenders? >> First Minister, >> I think this that I I I understand the sincerity and strength of opinion that Mr. care raises in relation to bail issues. But I thought there was a very interesting interview on radio this morning from Tony Lenahan, the vice dean of the faculty of advocates, which I thought was an incredibly thoughtful and considered assessment of some of the dilemmas that are faced by sheriffs in relation to the question of bail. There was me much else in the interview that was very much worth listening to. But the issues around bail are fundamentally issues for the judiciary to determine. and in my view for the judiciary to determine independently. But what I would want to assure parliament about is that the government is confident that the measures that we legislated for in the bail legislation provide a comprehensive bail test that can be applied with the type of rigor that Mr. K seeks uh by the judiciary. The impact of the domestic abuse Scotland act is making a difference as well. And whilst none of us want to see increases, as Maria Scott of Scottish Women's Aid said in relation to the high number of prosecutions, this is a good use of our law, a point made again this morning by um by uh Tony Lenan on the radio. So the government recognizes the importance of the criminal justice system acting as a deterrent where the public health prevention interventions that we have set out have not been effective. Um in line with our equally safe approach, we are introducing a multi-year fund to ensure vital services are sustainable to support women affected by violence against women and girls. And this is relates to the point that Maggie Chapman just raised with me. We are making our 2 million pounds fund to leave permanent, providing practical and financial support to women and children leaving abusive partners. To ensure harassment and abuse based on misogyny is outlawed, we will introduce the misogyny bill to recognize mis misogyny as a distinct form of prejudice. And over the summer, we consulted on more legal protections for women. This will inform our work on a violence against women and girls protections bill which we will bring forward later in this parliament. We will also work within our devolved powers to improve online safety and combat technology facilitated violence against women and girls and the new victims witnesses and justice reform Scotland act contains a range of measures to improve the experiences of survivors of sexual offenses. A new sexual offenses court will support the development of specialist trauma informed approaches to the management of sexual offenses courts. And it will also help to identify and resolve issues that delay cases coming to trial. And before recess in October, we will lay regulations to enable the piloting of GPS monitoring for individuals on bail, including those suspected of domestic abuse. I if I develop this point and then I'll give way to Mr. care just to complete the the the point I'm making here. I can confirm to parliament today that the pilot will be led by sheriff principal Wade in the T-side central and five sheriffd subject to robust local arrangements been put in place to ensure public safety. We anticipate the pilot being able to commence next year and I'll give away to Mr. Steven, >> I'm grateful to the first minister. He mentioned the specialist sexual offenses court. Will he confirm that the funding for that court to become operational will be available in the next few months? >> First minister, >> the uh proposals are in place for it to be established in the next financial year. So that's the that's the time scale we're operating to. But obviously I'm very happy to explore issues in relation to the establishment in the court as part of this debate. Presiding officer in join my remarks to a close our aim is to enable women and girls to live safe respected and fulfilling lives free of violence. To do so we must address the attitudes and behaviors that perpetuate that violence. And we must build more equal and more cohesive communities where everyone, men and women, are able to build healthy, supportive, and equal relationships and challenge those who seek to stoke division and incite violence. In recent years, as our communities and our economy have faced strain and pressure, we have seen many attempts by some to exploit the violence done to women and girls. Deplorably, we've seen it weaponized to sow fear, mistrust, and division in our society. It has been used in disinformation to set one community against another. But without reservation, my government rejects that approach. Scotland's diversity is a strength. Our communities are rich and vibrant, tightly knit, incredible places. They are made even more incredible by the different people, faiths, cultures, and backgrounds found within them. Everyone in a modern Scotland deserves to live free from fear. Everyone deserves the opportunity to thrive and to flourish. I've pledged my personal leadership to this and my government will work across government and across society to make this ambition a reality. We will work to build a Scotland where everyone is safe, accepted, and respected, where women and girls live free from all forms of violence, abuse, and exploitation. And where all are free of the attitudes and stereotypes that perpetuate inequality. We will work to do this, but it is not something we can do alone. It takes sustained action across all parts of government and wider society. Everyone working together. I know there are many here and many across Scotland who will join us in this endeavor. I encourage them to add their voices to ours. I offer to give the leadership to our country to end violence against women and girls and to work with others to make that happen. And I move the motion to my name. I call Amanda Lindseay to speak to and move amendment 1163.2 up to 8 minutes. >> Thank you, presiding officer. This motion has a fine title, equally safe. After two decades of strategies, funds and ministerial protocols, women in Scotland are entitled to ask equally safe compared with what? Recorded sexual crime is at its highest level since comparable records began in 1971. Rape and attempted rape have risen sharply over the last decade. That is the backdrop to a program for government that again offers a misogyny bill, a campaign aimed at boys and another funding announcement. Strategy is not safety. Outcomes are safety. And on outcomes, this government is failing. This is also a government that could not define a woman until its own citizens took it to court. And that should have been the starting point for any serious h strategy on violence against women. It was not. You cannot protect women if you will not say who they are. We cannot debate violence against women while pretending every risk is the same. Men commit the overwhelming majority of these offenses. That is not in dispute. What is in dispute is whether patterns of offending stop at Gretina. Analyses of Ministry of Justice figures for England and Wales show that some nationalities are over represented in the data for sexual offense convictions. Sure, there are caveats and these are not Scottish statistics, but why will Police Scotland not publish the nationality and immigration status of those charged with rape and sexual assault here? So, I put this to the government. Do you believe in a second? Yes. Do you believe that um p this pattern magically disappears at the border? I'll give way >> epide. >> Yes. Thank you member. Do you do you know that from the statistics survivors were 12.5 times more likely to know the abuser in one or fifth of the case 25% 20% the perpetrators was a spouse partner or former partner. In 50% of cases, the perpetrator was a relative of step parents and only six% of those cases happened outside their own home of that person's home. >> Amanda Lindsay, >> thank you for the intervention. Yes, it's mo it's why I said men commit the overwhelming majority. The question is whether some groups offend at higher rates and whether the state is allowed to say so. Per capita is not the same as raw totals. However, there is an issue with the recording of rate because so many are recorded as the perpetrator being known to the victim. Even if this was a minor interaction, whether it's at a bus stop or in a pub or a nightclub, this is the same trick you tried on grooming gangs. For months, you told Scotland there was limited evidence that the organized group-based abuse seen in England operated here. Absence of data was sold as absence of a problem. This that is not analysis. It is gaslighting >> the public certainly. >> Shalan Somerville, >> I'm grateful to the member for giving way. Following on from the p the point that's just been made by my colleague, we should also say then in agreement that the most common perpetrators of sexual violence are the current partner 51% or exartner 14%. And surely this is some of the statistics we should be focusing on today. I remind the chamber that if a member wishes to make an intervention, they must press their intervention button. Amanda Lindsay, >> thank you. I'm not disputing that. But it's not the whole picture. It is all not all men and not all boys. The point I am making is this. You cannot run equally safe on slogans while refusing to count who is offending who is being housed in our towns and who is exploiting women and girls. >> Then there is the data black hole that makes the gaslighting possible. Police Scotland does not routinely publish the nationality or immigration status of those accused of rape. Until recently, it systems could not properly mark group-based child sexual exploitation. I'd like to proceed. Thank you. Ministers cannot accuse the public of misinformation while refusing to give them the information. This parliament No, I'd like to make progress. I've taken several interventions. Thank you. This parliament should demand a quarterly official statistics release of the ethnicity, nationality, and immigration status of every person charged with rape, sexual assault, or group based child sexual exploitation. If the pattern is not there, publish the figures and prove it. If you will not collect them, no, you have no right to tell women they're imagining what they can already see. >> The member does not have to make to take an intervention. The courts have already recorded what ministers will not tabulate. A man, no, I'd like you to listen and buckle up. A man granted leave to remain raped a student after following her through Glasgow city center. Another was convicted of raping a 15year-old near Hamed in Faler, my constituency. An asylum seeker housed in a hotel was jailed for raping a 15year-old in the town center. Another man staying at the Cladden was convicted of sexually assaulting two women after they left nightclubs. Individual cases are not a census. They're a warning that a system which will not count cannot protect. Presiding officer equally safe also talks about commercial sexual exploitation and on that the government has achieved almost nothing useful. Our advice is practical. Go after the people who profit from selling other people, the pimps, the traffickers, the brothel managers, and the websites that take a cut. Focus your enforcement there and you start to protect women and girls from exploitation. That approach would at least be a step in the right direction. But we should also ask ourselves, what message are we sending to young men if buying sex is treated as just another transaction? The same data black hole sits behind grooming gangs. The first minister was not persuaded of an inquiry. The justice secretary voted one down and cited Professor Alexis J as if she agreed Scotland needed none. Professor J had to correct the record. She had said no such thing. Yet police operations in Glasgow have identified well over a hundred potential victims and dozens of suspects. A Romanian gang was jailed for raping and exploiting women in Dundee, including trafficking into prostitution. Care experienced girls in Glasgow have described being pied with drink and drugs by groups of men. Inspectors now say there is no reliable picture because police and councils did not collect the data, including on ethnicity. Ministers used the absence of statistics as proof that the problem was small and announced an inquiry only after survivors spoke out and an election came into view. A strategy that cannot say grooming gang until the votes are counted is not equally safe as damage control. Equally safe names, honorbased abuse, female genital mutilation, and forced marriage, yet delivery is thin. How many co um cases were recorded last year? How many prosecutions? How many protection orders granted and how many breached? Those harms are not generic misogyny. They're specific crimes often hidden inside families and communities. And they require specialist policing, trained prosecutors, and the courage to name cultural practice where is the driver. Why is progress so poor? Because a strategy that talks about all men will not do the unfashionable work. Mapping risk, recording ethnicity where it is relevant, backing women who report their own relatives, and measuring outcomes instead of publishing another action plan. In conclusion, presiding officer, we say publish the data ministers find inconvenient. Stop telling Scotland that patterns vanish at the border. target pimps, traffickers, and the platforms that profit from them. Let the grooming gangs inquiry name ethnicity, nationality, and institutional failure. Resource single sex services and specialist work on honorbased abuse, FGM, and forced marriage and report the cases, the charges, and the convictions. Until these things happen, equally safe as a slogan, and women and girls will go on paying the price. Presciding officer, I move the amendment in my name. Thank you. >> I call Jackie Bailey to speak to and move amendment 1163.1 up to 6 minutes. >> Thank you, presiding officer. It is of course right to hold the government to account, but that level of misinformation we've just heard is about creating division rather than actually tackling violence against women and girls. Violence against women and girls is a scourge on our society. It is on all of us, particularly lawmakers, to do everything we can to root it out, to confront it, and to eradicate it. That begins by doing what we can to keep women and girls safe in Scotland now. And I want to thank the first minister for bringing this important debate to parliament and for his support for the it's time campaign led by the Sunday Post. He has said much that I can agree with in his speech and I welcome his words on accelerating measures to protect women and girls, particularly on introducing GPS monitoring for those convicted of violent or threatening action towards women. That is an important intervention. Just two weeks ago, I pressed the first minister to act on this very issue at first minister's questions and I'm glad that he has reacted positively to our debate. But whilst his words are welcome, what we need is a clear timeline for implementation and I'm happy to give way if he'll provide us with that timeline. First Minister, >> I'm grateful to Jackie Bailey for giving way and also for the approach that she is taking because the important point that Jackie Bailey has made is that the Labor Party has pressed us to take further action and we have responded to that and the outline that I've said and I expect everything all been all things been equal that we can start the pilot on the GPS arrangements by the new year. Um so uh what I would say to Jackie Baile and what the purpose of my intervention is is to say that I recognize the importance of the opposition challenging the government to ensure that we take the necessary and appropriate action and I hope the response on GPS indicates our willingness to accept that challenge. >> Jackie Bailey >> and you would of course expect me to continue to hold the government's feet to the fire because new year is one thing for a pilot. when is it going to be rolled across Scotland? Because Community Justice Scotland first called for GPS tracking a decade ago. The roll out of GPS tracking in England and Wales was way back in 2018. So, we have promises in place in Scotland, but it is all about delivery. And we all remember, let me make some progress. We all remember the horrific murder of Stacy Hunter earlier this year, killed by her abusive partner who was not being properly tracked while on bail. and her family have bravely led the calls for GPS implementation and I'm glad that John Swinny has listened to them. But this should not have been this should have been in place here in Scotland and if we're being honest, the government has been slow to act. Stacy and the other women who have been killed by abusive men should be here today. That's why my amendment today calls for a clear date for implementation. Not to shame the government for inaction, but actually to encourage them to act quickly in the interests of Scotland's women and girls. The government is right to call for action to tackle the pervasive influence of misogyny and sexism amongst men and boys. Behavioral and cultural changes are important, but we cannot ignore the need for clear and practical action. So, it's time to move beyond the rhetoric and focus on action. We've had two reports on sexual assaults in our NHS by the women's rights network Scotland and there is no change. And now we have a new report on sexual assaults in our leisure centers. So, the record of the government isn't good enough and clearly more needs to be done. Since 2022, sexual crimes are up by 11%. Rape and attempted rape up by 32%. Domestic abuse crimes have rocketed by 81%. And all while rape victims must wait for an average of nearly three years between reporting an incident to the police and a verdict being given. And now rape crisis centers report insufficient resources to meet increasing demand. So much so they've had to close their waiting list. >> Happy Stephen Carr. >> Grateful to Jackie Bailey for giving way. She's just mentioned scarcity of resources in relation to the GPS. It's a technology, not necessarily a solution because without investment in community-based resources, how on earth does it make any difference whether they're wearing a tag or not? >> Jackie Bailey. >> Um I absolutely agree the system needs to be resourced. Funding had previously been frozen. Um extra money has been announced by the first minister, but it's not getting to the front line, and that's what we need to scrutinize. So I don't doubt for a moment the sincere commitment of the first minister to protecting women and girls across Scotland. But we will never get anywhere near to fixing this issue if we don't appreciate the scale of the problem. That's why work to tackle cultural attitudes among men and boys is so necessary, but also why it is only one part of what must be a multifaceted approach to tackling this issue. Scottish Labor has outlined several policies that we believe would help to go some way to tackling the crisis before us. And beyond the swift implementation of GPS tracking, we'd like to see a misogyny reduction unit at taking a public health approach to the crisis boost early uptake of equally safe at schools program to tackle sexual harassment and gendered violence in schools with a positive focus on male role models. modernization of the victim's notification scheme so that no woman who has been the victim of male violence will be left in the dark and police back on the beat keeping women and girls safe in all of our communities. More police, better education of men and boys, zero tolerance for gendered violence and a clear campaign to tackle misogyny headon. This is how we can tackle No, I'm in my final minute. This is how we can tackle violence against women and girls. and we are ready to work with the Scottish government to do just that. Presiding officer, I want to thank the first minister for his leadership on this issue. He is right to recognize the need for action, but this is exactly why we must move beyond warm words and instead act now before it is too late for other women. I move the amendment in my name. I call on Russell Finley to speak to and move amendment 1163.3 up to 7 minutes. >> Thank you officer. I'd like to begin by thanking John Swinny for holding today's debate on violence against women and girls and also for attending my round table with victims and their families some of whom are in the chamber today. I'm sure that he will have been as moved as I was by not only their horrific accounts, but their extraordinary bravery. And I'd also like to thank Marian Scott for her campaigning journalism and for leading the Sunday Post's It's Time campaign. Now, a few weeks ago, John Swinny told the Sunday Post that he saw headlines about four horrific cases which he says stopped me in my tracks. He added, "That day I made tackling violence against women and girls one of my highest priorities as first minister. We've all become used to similar lurid headlines. Not just four or dozens, but hundreds of them. And not over one summer, but for years and indeed decades. I've been raising some of these cases here for six years. accounts of depraved, cruel, and sickening violence. Inadequate, cowardly men are responsible, but far too often the justice system fails victims. I've spoken here about the horrific case of the murder of Esther Brown, a kind and decent soul raped and murdered in her own home. Esther's murder was wholly preventable, but a review of her case said that it wasn't. It was just a whitewash. And it's typical of a culture where no one is held to account. Now, my focus today is on the continued failings of Scotland's justice system and how it must be improved. I've spoken here in the past about secretive plea deals where criminals benefit from watered down or deleted charges often in defiance of clear hard evidence. Working with Liz Shanks, a firefighter, we've tried to bring some transparency to this practice. And I've also spoken about a broken bail system. 28-year-old Clare Engles was murdered by her apartment who the authorities knew was a risk to her and her child, but he was bailed repeatedly. Claire's parents, Fiona and Ian, came to FMQ's on three occasions as I raised their ordeal. We then met John Swinny and all they want is answers to basic questions. And almost five years since their daughter's murder, they're still being kept in the dark. And Fiona actually asked me this week, are they waiting for us to die? P lady officer, the government weakened bail laws in 2023 by removing a specific presumption against bail for domestic and sexual violence. They did so despite Victim Support Scotland, Scottish Women's Aid and others warning that doing so presents a serious risk to the safety of female victims. And this summer, two women murdered by male partners who had already attacked them only to be given bail. Stacy Hunter, aged 35, and Samantha Lee, aged 54. Dangerous men freed to kill. I'll give >> First Minister, >> I'm grateful to Mr. Finley for giving way and I don't in any way want my intervention to affect and relate to the point she's making about individual cases but in relation to his point about the provisions of the bail reforms I think it is important that I put on the record that the bail reforms that were undertaken by the government created a single all-encompassing bail test and I know that Mr. Finley disagrees with that point, but the bail test was designed to put uh public and victim safety at the very heart of bail decisionmaking. And I think it's important, although Mr. Fin, I disagree on that point, that I put that on the record so that victims and members of the public appreciate that the judgments about bail are made in a comprehensive way by the judiciary um free to take the judgment that they consider appropriate in any individual case. Russell Finley >> understand the the subtleties of the change in the legislation which we we opposed and which the government brought forward and indeed passed. But these dangerous men were freed to kill. In the case of Clare Engles, the perpetrator was free to kill. There was an abundance of evidence that these men were highly dangerous and their offending was escalating. I'd like to take a moment to thank Stacy's brother, Sean Hunter, for being here today, just seven weeks after his sister's murder. Now, one other common theme isn't so much the granting or refusing of bail, it's the flagrant breach of bail laws. Often, nothing happens. victims told a recent HM Inspector of Prosecutions report that, and I quote, "Bail breaches are not taken seriously by the justice system and described a culture of no consequences and the perpetrators know this. So, let's fix bail laws. Let's enforce them." Now, the police aren't to blame. They're run ragged and the creation of Police Scotland has removed hundreds of millions of pounds from poling budgets. The Scottish Police Federation blames this on a lack of training for officers. And the prison service isn't to blame either. It's the government's responsibility to build sufficient prison capacity. And it's outrageous that the SNP's delayed new net zero prison in Glasgow will cost at least a billion pounds. For 20 years, the SNP government have failed to modernize the justice system. They failed to ensure that judges have an alternative, a genuine alternative to custody. They failed to use new technology being used elsewhere in Britain. They failed to provide meaningful rehabilitation to stop reaffending. And now they're planning to free all long-term prisoners early after serving just twothirds of their sentence. The government knows what the consequences of this will be >> and judges have criticized the early release plan raising public safety concerns and warning about further harming fragile trust in the justice system. And I say to John Swinny today, take the dangerous automatic early release plan off the table. My parties also campaigned to stripes scrap guidelines not to jail criminals aged under 25. The justification being they're not fully responsible for their actions. Rehys Bennett raped and battered Jill Barkley, aged 47. He set fire to her while she was still alive. And the judge described her murder as medieval. But because her killer was 23 years old, he was given a reduced sentence. That is sickening and obscene. Now, like Jackie Bailey, I don't question John Swinn's sincerity on this. There's much we agree on, but I do question his government's policies and their past record. Let's yes, address the behavior of young men. If we can't drain the social media swamp, then swamp, then let's protect children from it. And yes, let's warn uh children about the toxic attitudes of dangerous online clowns like the tape brothers. but also, or rather especially, let's fix Scotland's criminal justice system. Bold, effective, and immediate action are needed now. The tragic headlines might never stop, but they can be reduced. Thank you. >> I call on Ross Greer to speak. Six minutes. Thank you, presiding officer. Uh, and I'm glad to speak in this debate. Like the first minister, I agree that men need to show leadership both in this parliament and across Scotland. Violence against women and girls infects every corner of our society. And the fault lies with adults, with men. But tackling violence against women and girls in our schools means changing the attitudes of boys and young men. It's that that I want to focus on first. I've mentioned before in debates uh here the report that zero tolerance produced in 2023 that was shocking but not really surprising because they found that almost 7 in 10 pupils in our schools had experienced sexual harassment in the 3 months before that survey was conducted. They were overwhelmingly but not exclusively girls and young women. A third a third had experienced unwanted sexual touching. That means a third of young people in our schools had been sexually assaulted in the three months immediately prior to that survey. And in over 70% of those cases, the pupils did not report that sexual harassment, even when it was severe, even when it included unwanted sexual touching. So we're not just talking about a few bad apples. We need to accept the huge scale of this problem. According to the large-scale survey that Glasgow University did not long ago, a significant minority of boys and young men in our country hold views about women that can only be described as outright dangerous. This is a pandemic of violence against women and girls. And there's no silver bullet. There is no one solution here. But there are obvious changes that we can make. And there are obvious changes that we have been making. I think back to when I was first elected here in 2016 and the education committee of this parliament conducted an inquiry into the state of personal and social education in our schools. At that point, Jenny Guth and Jillian Martin uh were also on that committee because we found that the guidance that teachers were being provided with to teach about sex and relationships, which at that point was basically brand new from 2014, had no section on consent. We were teaching boys and young men about sex and not teaching them about the importance of consent. So that parliamentary inquiry led to a report the government accepted the recommendations of it that led to an education Scotland review and a report that the government accepted the recommendations of and then there were about half a dozen other steps. It is only now earlier this year that we finally finished the revision to that guidance that teachers are provided with. And I want to pay credit to Jenny Guth and before Charlan Somerville and their roles as education secretary for making sure that that work was done. But we should reflect on the fact that it took us 10 years to change a single document to make sure that young men in our schools learn about the importance of consent when they're being taught about sex and relationships. And earlier this month, the NPCC were outside of our parliament continuing to campaign on this issue because it's one thing to produce a new document that's better than the one that came before it. It's another thing entirely to make sure that that is actually being implemented in our schools. So, there's a role here not just for national government, but for local government as well. We now have teaching resources on relationships, sexual health, and parenthood education that start that start with that substantial section on the importance of consent and respect in relationships. We need to make sure that every school that every classroom in our country is actually using that resource because even the inadequate resource from 2014, the one that we revised, even it was not actually being consistently used by teachers in our schools. If we want to change these attitudes, we need to make sure that that education is consistently of a high quality. But going back to the the other part of the zero uh zero tolerance uh report, the low levels of reporting is something that needs to concern us as well because there are young people across our country who are not confident that if they report to their school that they will actually be taken seriously. Schools need to give their pupils confidence. They need to find out why pupils are not confident reporting in the first place. Now, young men need positive role models. We know, as First Minister Russell Finley have said, we have algorithms on all of our social media platforms that reward toxic misogyny. If only this parliament had more powers to regulate social media, but there are things that we can do. There are limited powers that this parliament would have, but there are other things we could do. Men in public life here in Scotland do need to contest the online space. We cannot see that any void that we leave online is being filled by this toxic and violent misogyny. And we need to contest that space and provide those positive role models. Not just to change the attitude of boys, but to change the attitudes of men of all ages, of all backgrounds, of all positions in our society. We have men in positions of power not believing women and that directly putting their lives at risk. We have men who let their mates away with jokes about violence against women and girls, putting those women and girls lives at risk, exactly as Willie Renie described. One in four teenage boys in Scotland believe it's not sexual harassment if it's meant as a joke. One in three believe that girls wearing revealing clothing are asking for trouble. That's all learned behavior. That's not naturally occurring. That is a result of the environment that they have been brought up in. And that is something that we can change because to normalize that behavior, to fail to challenge it convinces abusers that they have impunity. So we have a responsibility to challenge misogyny, including when it happens within this parliament. But there's so much more that Parliament and government can do. We can change attitudes, but we can also change the law. And we all know it's actually easier for us to change the law than it is to change attitudes in our society. We have systems built up over decades and centuries that make violence against women possible that continue to perpetuate it. To give one brief example, council tax arers in this country. It is the case in Scotland right now that there are women paying off the council tax debts of the abusers that they have escaped. There are other women unable to escape those violent households because of that situation. So again, I want to pay credit to Charlanne Somerville for the work that we did together on the housing bill that will be published next month that will chart a way forward for us to revolve that particular uh scandal to make sure that no women who uh who has survived and escaped from domestic abuse are forced to pay off the perpetrators debts. There's so much more that we could do. There are other steps we could make. Drop the means testing for legal aid, for example, for survivors of domestic abuse and tackle the wider problem of legal aid deserts. I welcome the government's announcement that they'll be introducing the misogyny bill because this parliament, especially the men here, need to do more. We need to challenge behaviors and attitudes. We need to lead by example and we need to take seriously the legislative and policy issues that have allowed this pandemic of violence to continue. >> Mr. G, could you begin to wind up please? >> I am indeed on my final line, presiding officer. H we have the power and duty to act and I expect that in this session of parliament, we will do so. So I'm glad to have had the opportunity this afternoon to contribute to this debate. Thank you. EP Cha Turvey up to five minutes. Thank you presiding officer. I stand here again to talk about the changes I wish to see and how we are still far from that vision. Violence against women and girls can be loud and visible. It can be rape. It can be punches or been thrown against the wall, the bruises. It can be threat to your life, to your very physical safety. But it can also be quiet. It can also present in much more silent ways that are just as damaging. mental abuse, cursive control, financial control, weaponized in police or justice system. And until we tackle this pandemic of violence head on, one in three women will continue to face this kind of violence over their lifetime. colleagues, there are also many debates for for the moment on AI and text and but girls and young women today are facing abuse previously unknown as technology progress at a rapid pace. Online sexual violence such as intimate image you abuse the creation of AI generated defakes cyber flashing and misogynistic abuse are widespread. A recent study showed that 71% of girls and young women aged 7 to 21 report experiencing harmful content online in the past year. With those strong and forceful guidance that includes real consequences, boys and men will continue to create sexually explicit imagery of women and girls using the AI tool so easily available to them and they are indeed so easy to be to use. This is a new wave of sexual violence that we cannot ignore. Even just last week, the criminal justice committee listened to evidence from Tony Lenam Casey visiting of the faculty of advocates who warned us of the prolific nature of sexual violence and the need to speak to a young people about what violent sexual acts looks like. He stated that social violence was roaringly widespread and that by not addressing violence against women and girls within the framework that they experienced it, we risk increasing further violent offenses and commission later on. That's why all the studies we have heard from Glasgow University, you know, if one of three of the boys do think that is is girls wearing rebelling clothing are asking for trouble. If one quarter of the boys believe that sexual assment doesn't apply is as intended as a joke. But violence against women and girls is an act. And we should really, as Rudy said, we should really stop people when they behave like that. Also presenting officer colleagues the recent figures are keep on been staggering an increase of 2% from last year with nearly 65,000 incident of domestic abuse recorded in Scotland in 24 to 25 an increase of 11% on recorded incident of rape and attempted rape in the same period and physical violence often the worst and most damaging happens to women trapped for the safety of their children. Rape crisis services reported that 20% of recorded rapes were perpetrated by a spouse, partner or former partner. And as we've seen time again and again, even when they are brave enough to leave, women are still not safe from violent men because those women are trapped financially. Those women do all they can to protect the children's well-being. that trapped by curse control, biting their lips, holding their tears back to keep protecting their kids and put a brave face to the world, to the community, to their work. Sadly, we are also in a system that too often underfund and undersupport those who seek to offer that critical support to women in danger. The Scottish Liberal Democrats are here to work with the Scottish government on the pledges they have given to the people of Scotland. Because those moments, those mama are waiting for us to do so. Full use of domestic abuse protection orders, sexual offenses court. This need to be rolled out without hesitation. It's been too long. The most recent data show a 22% increase in the number of rape survivor been forced to spend time on the waiting list before accepting accessing support. And that figure doesn't even take into account that the waiting list that have already been temporarily closed provided some with no support at all. And it's also often depend where you live. Those wait time are long for survivors brave enough to face the attacker in court. From primary hearing to trial, the wait is now upwards of 135 week. Chambers, today makes for sovereign listening. It's really time for all of us to call out violence against women and girls. It is time to stop. I support this motion. Thank you. >> We now move on to the open debate. Karen Adam up to six minutes. >> Thank you, presiding officer. I initially wanted to speak in this debate because like many women, unfortunately, I've experienced male violence. But as I really reflected on my contribution over the last week, my thoughts kept returning not to my own experience, but to my children, to my daughter and my five sons. I kept thinking, five boys, it's a lot. It's a big responsibility. So I thought, why don't I speak to them? So the following speech is inspired by those conversations I had with my sons. I've watched them grow up in a world that's changed profoundly during my 35 years as a mother. My youngest son is now a teenager, growing up in a completely different environment from the one my daughter entered in 1991. There was no Tik Tok, no algorithm deciding what a young person would see next. No manosphere influencer speaking directly into the palm of my son's hand. So, how do we exert our influence in a world where competing influence has became big business? If we're serious about prevention, we can't just give a boy a list of things he must never do and hope that list survives whatever the world throws at us next. We have to go much deeper than that. We have to nurture a moral instinct, empathy, respect, equality, and self-control becoming a part of who that young boy is. So whatever voices try to pull him in another direction, they cannot compete against the strength of their own integrated values. We can be unequivocal that male violence against women is a male problem without telling every boy that he is a problem. And I think that distinction matters. If what boys hear from society is simply, "You're dangerous, you're a suspect, you need to be controlled," I don't believe that builds empathy or healthy masculinity. For a boy who is already angry, isolated, or looking for somewhere to belong, it could actually drive them toward the voices that we are trying to guide them away from. We need to show them what good, healthy masculinity looks like. Strength is not controlling someone else. It's being able to control yourself. Confidence is not entitlement. It is being secure enough in yourself to respect somebody else's choices. Courage is not going along with your friends when they cross a line. It is being the one who challenges them. And being emotional or vulnerable is not weakness. It is being brave to be honest enough about how you feel. I don't want us approaching boys as though somewhere inside every one of them there's a dangerous man waiting to emerge if we fail him. The deeper form of prevention is not a young man thinking I shouldn't do that because I might get in trouble. It's something in his core saying I couldn't do that because it would violate who I am. And that is where I think we should be aiming for sir. We need all men, fathers, brothers, youth workers, first ministers, footballers, musicians, actors. Men who have status in the eyes of our boys. Men who boys admire to make respect aspirational. Men know that you are the examples. For better or for worse, there needs to be full accountability. A man who abuses, controls, assaults, or terrorizes a woman is responsible for what he does full stop. Anger does not excuse it. And no experience in a man's life gives him the right to make a woman terrified for hers. And if we're serious about prevention, our ambition can't begin once a woman has already been assaulted or killed. There has to be a social cost to misogyny long before there is a criminal justice cost. Because presiding officer, for far too long, women have been expected to adapt ourselves around male violence. We think about how we get home, how we reject him, whether we should answer back, whether we might make him angry, whether it's safe to leave, whether it's safe to stay. Women cannot simply be handed another safety strategy and told to manage the risk better. Society has to do the work further upstream. And that is why I welcome the focus in this motion on prevention, challenging attitudes, and that collective leadership. Men have to carry much more of the responsibility for changing that culture because men have enormous power to shape what boys learn about women, about relationships, and about what it means to really be a man. We've spent generations teaching girls how to navigate that danger. Surely now our ambition has to be to change what creates that danger in the first place. So do not make boys afraid of what they might become. Show them something that's worth becoming. Let's raise our girls knowing that their safety, freedom, and equality are theirs by right and raise our boys with respect for women so deeply embedded in who they are that no influencer, no algorithm or culture of misogyny can persuade them otherwise. Presiding officer, our daughters should not have to grow up learning how to survive male violence, and our sons can be a part of the generation that ends it. Thank you. David Lindon to be followed by Pauline McNeel. David Lindon, up to six minutes. I'm very grateful, deputy presiding officer and can I just say um that is incredibly eloquent speech um by Miss Adam, one that's very difficult to to follow um but I know everybody um will appreciate the words that that she has put on record in the chamber. Um deputy deciding officer, I want to start um by acknowledging and indeed commending the personal leadership that has been shown by the first minister on this issue. I think anybody who's a serious politician would understand and accept that the plate of a first minister is not particularly big. Um so the fact um that this first minister has decided to invest a huge amount of his personal time and attention into tackling the issue of violence against women I think speaks to the type of individual he is and I think we should be incredibly proud of the fact that he is leading our country in that way. Um I want also to um commend as I've done the first minister the Glasgow Times newspaper. I was reading that on on Wednesday night in the way home um and and noticed some some powerful um commentary from McNeel and from Miss Bruce as part of their action not words campaign and the Glasgow Times is led by an outstanding editor, a young female Stacy Millan who has really put her shoulder to the wheel on the actions not words campaign and I think it's that that I want to speak about today to ensure that we are actually getting that action that we so desperately need. in Glasgow just at the weekend um we witnessed the embarrassing spectacle of uh men dressed in black wearing ski masks and parading around Glasgow green. Um I think most Glasgians are clear that um women don't need to be protected um by men dressed in black going around intimidating people in ski masks and those those individuals really do need to grab a grip of themselves. But I want also um to in making reference to to this um just look at the the racial lens that exists when it comes to violence against women. Um I've got a friend who is female. She's Muslim and unfortunately was going through um Glasgow Central Station recently and had her hijab pulled off of her. Um so the violence against women is manifesting itself in a number of different ways. Um but most importantly we see that um increase of 5,000 domestic abuse cases in Glasgow which calls to to need the action that the first minister is leading on. There are two things that I would say to the government as we tackle this issue. one, we need to see resource. Um, some of that will be monetary and of course that will be said out to the government. But secondly, it means that all arms of the state have to work together and I I don't doubt that there's a crucial role particularly when it comes to education to tackle the issues that we've referenced in particular to to young men and boys. But the second issue is around about legislation and I'll come on to the misogyny act misogyny bill in a second. Um but also to say um that we need to enforce the existing legislation that's in the statute books as well. Um I probably am in a kind of minority here when I say that the repeal of section 23D I'm happy to >> Megan Gallagher. >> I really thank the member for giving way on this point. Does he also agree that we've got to revisit some of the justice legislation that's been passed in recent times to make sure we are truly standing up for victims survivors of violence against women and girls? David London. >> I'm grateful to Miss Gallagher because that was the point I was about to make is that I do remain to be convinced the repeal of section 23D of the 1995 criminal procedure act was the right thing to do visav the 2023 bail and um the bail legislation. That's a view that has been expressed to me by police officers. Um that's a view that has been expressed to people um who come to the criminal justice committee. Um so I would as the government looks at post legislative scrutiny suggest that we do need to look at that and of course it was a view that was outlined by the likes of Scottish and aid and victim support Scotland. Um we do also need to enforce existing legislation that's currently in the statute books the domestic abuse protection Scotland act 2021 part one of that has not yet been implemented which relates to domestic abuse protection notices and domestic abuse protection orders. So I would ask the minister in summing up um to give the the chief an update as to when part one of that particular act will be implemented. I want to turn now my attention to the misogyny criminal law bill um which will be um brought forward by the Scottish government in year one of the program for government. I think my own committee is now expecting three pieces of legislation in all reality probably four once we see legislation emanating from the penal reform bill. Um, so it would be helpful for those of us in the committee to have a better understanding particularly as we're planning a work program for what is going to be a very heavy amount of legislation. But that said, I do very warmly welcome um provision in any misogyny bill for the additional aggravating factor of pregnancy. I think it will be important in terms of providing transparency particularly about sentencing decisions. I want also um in reference uh to the inspector of prosecution um to go back and look at the 2024 report that they did which looks at how we treat um victims and survivors um of domestic abuse. Um it is very telling that only two years on from that powerful report in 2024 the inspectorate are going back to conduct a review specifically about recommendation 12 um which is about how we are supporting victims. If I may turn briefly to the amendment in the name of Dee Jackie Bailey specifically relating to electronic monitoring. Um I I welcome and would support the amendment that Miss Bailey has um lodged but just want to make sure that parliament is aware that this is not a panacea. We heard pretty significant evidence at committee recently from Dr. Hannah Graham saying tech on its own will not stop things such as domestic abuse or reoffending in other forums. Our victim support organizations and advocates have made it clear in a really articulate way that they have different views on the subject. We do not want to see the technology used if it could appear to provide a false sense of security as considerable victim support and safeguarding efforts will need to be made. So I think it's important that we just recognize that that will not be a panacea. Um many other members um have made reference uh to issues pertaining to social media. Um I think that the all members who have spoken on that have been absolutely solid on that particular issue. I am fed up now of reporting to Facebook um comments that are clearly inappropriate and but getting responses back saying this does not violate our community rules. Um, in the interests of time, because I realize I am running out, um, I just want to say, um, that the the plea that has been made by the Glasgow Times about needing action and not just words is the thing that stays with me in all of this because we all have a part to play in this chamber. First minister has rolled the pitch and made clear the direction of travel that he is taking as leader of our country. But all of us in this chamber also have that obligation on us and I look forward to the course of convening the criminal justice committee to ensuring that we do that because we all have a role to play in this regard. >> Paulie McNeel to be followed by Pauline Stafford. Pauline McNeel up to six minutes. I am heartened by the first minister's leadership in this regard and I know that he's conducted this with deep sincerity and I just want to give my personal commitment to working with the Scottish government on this societal issue because we passed many laws in this place to try and protect women all the societal changes that we've all fought for but yet we're here still. The violence against women and girls is rising, but we must ask ourselves why. And I think the stunning speech from Karen Adams is a big contribution to that in my opinion. But it's not refugees. It's not class or ethnicity. The problem is men. That's the problem. The latest Crown Office figures the latest Crown figures show a substantial increase in domestic abuse charges. And over the past two years, the most serious domestic abuse crimes like murder and culpable homicide have almost doubled. We have an increasing number of very shocking cases that have come to light. >> Jazelle Pelico does not have to take >> I've got some sensitive stuff. I mean, I might take one later on, but I just want to say this. >> If you follow the case of Jazelle Pelico, and in fact, the news last night is unfortunately a replica of this case. A man in Stockport is accused of drugging and raping his wife without her knowledge over a 20-year period. He has so far admitted 60 offenses against her, including rape. And 12 other men are also accused of multiple serious sexual offenses against his wife. They're not isolated cases. Zoe Watts from Devon have been in a relationship with her husband for 18 years during which she crushed sleeping pills into her tea at night to rape, photograph, and film her. Amanda Stanh Hope from Manchester was raped repeatedly by her partner while she was unconscious on prescription medication after waking up and disoriented in new clothes and with bruises on her body. So they started a campaign and it's called end eye check. And that refers to a practice where perpetrators pull back a victim's eyelids when they are sedated to check that they're unconscious before committing an assault. Often recording and sharing these acts online. But there are hundreds of women, hundreds of women and 22 countries at least around the world that we know of. So it's a global problem. Whilst we need leadership in Scotland here, we know we're part of a global problem. So how on earth did we get to this point? And I think this is what this parliament I think needs to address over the next four to five years. The depth and extent of male violence against women is only just emerging. We do have to hold men criminally accountable for these horrendous cases and there could be no doubt that we're serious about getting to the root causes which I think the first minister talked about then we need to start talking to boys at a very early age. The center for social justice lost boys report tells us that young men's behavior is increasingly being shaped by violent and degrading pornography. And professor Claire McGlin from Duran University has also argued that mainstream internet pornography has grown extreme and is changing young men's perception of safe and consensual sex. Normalizing extreme behavior such as choking. So it's why I've come to believe that the online sphere is a new frontier on as I've talked about a vines against women and girls that proliferation of sexually explicit deep fake pornographic images has grown at an alarming rate is caused devastating harm to victims who are almost always women and girls. Now Ross Greer was talking about the statistics about sexual harassment and that's true. Teenage girls have found that their classmates are using apps to transform their social media posts into m to news before sharing them. Currently, the distion and sharing of of such images is a criminal offense, but it's the creation of them. It's not. And I know I've had this exchange with the first minister about the need to criminalize this behavior. And I know there's a consultation ongoing. So, I'm glad to see this is happening. But I'd really like to see us making some progress on this as soon as possible. government policies are not effectively tackling the problem because I think it's not perhaps getting to the root of it. Rape crisis has pointed out there needs to be more resources put into preventative work. This is the discussion I'd like to have with the government over the next few years. Boys and young men need to be educated to try and prevent sexism and misogyny from developing. But they do badly need role models. I think another discussion that needs to be had. Gareth Southgate gave a lecture fairly recently about this. He's not the only one, but it is worth listening to men who've thought about this because without those men that we are not going to change a fundamental issue here. We've seen an increasing number of young women and girls reporting sexual harassment and assault schools. So, it's a longer term problem. That's for sure. In conclusion, presiding officer Tony Lenon has been quoted a few times, but Tony Lennon is a as a very experienced advocate um who has certainly represented many of these young men and seen many of these cases. So, he's worth listening to. But he said, "I see distressingly many 17, 18, and 19 year olds with entrenched patterns of abusive, including sexually abusive behavior. Talking about choking and the like or violent pornography is a extremely squeamish conversation to have with 15, 16, and 17 year olds. But there needs to be a lot more of that if we to make any progress. Thank you. I call Pauline Stafford to be followed by Katie Hagman. >> Thank you, presiding officer. I'm pleased to have the chance to speak in this debate today to be able to support the many women and girls in my constituency and across Scotland who have had their lives blighted by gender-based violence. Last November, I joined a march for the 16 days of activism against gender-based violence. We set off from the courtyard of Westloian College where there was an exhibition to mark the campaign. It was called the empty chairs with a chair for every woman killed by a man in the UK over the previous year. That's one woman every three days. They had a picture of each woman in a small part of her story. Teenage girls right up to women in their 80s. Women of color, disabled women, women of every class, the majority killed by partners or exartners or family members. There were no typical victims and no typical perpetrators. Violence against women and girls can seem intractable and all pervasive and a huge task to eradicate. But we all know that for those who it affects, the negative implications can be profound and lifelong. And is a credit to this government that we are focused on addressing it as a priority in this parliament. As a mother of a 12-year-old boy and a nine-year-old girl, I'm acutely aware of the need for action. I want my daughter to grow up without the threat of violence and with no areas of society off limits to her. And I want my son and his peers to be able to respect women and girls as equals and to resist the torrent of online misogyny which attempts to influence boys and men. Online violence and the threat of AI were prominent issues raised with me on Saturday here in the parliament when I had the chance to meet with members of the organization young women demand. And as we've heard today, this is a whole new frontier of abuse against women and girls. It's opened up in the online world and we need the tools to fight it. I wanted in this speech to highlight some of the tools already working which can be seen in two West Lotheian based initiatives. The first is the work of PC Scott Mccullik. His work is making a difference to thousands of young people in my constituency. PC Mccullik was named police officer of the year this year recognizing his work in developing and delivering a powerful domestic abuse lesson pack for young people across West Lotheian. PC McCullik worked with the domestic abuse investigations unit to develop a program that challenges behaviors within relationship settings to encourage all people and especially young men to develop healthy relationships and understand what is acceptable within the boundaries of one. His program has now been delivered to over 4,500 secondary secondary school pupils between S4 and S6 and West Lothian and he's now training officers in neighboring divisions to allow them to bring this initiative to other parts of Scotland. Westloian ranks third worst among Scotland's local authority areas for domestic abuse reporting and this leadership and approach to early intervention is absolutely critical. A second example of pioneering work took place in West Lothian is the financial abuse and coerced debt advice project pilot. This nine-month project was funded by the Scottish government's financial well-being unit and delivered by West Lothian women's aid in partnership with the citizens advice bureau with a final report published this year in March. The pilot trial embedding specialist debt advisor within West Loithium Women's Aids Office. It found that domestic abuse involving coerced debt is often intertwined with multiple layers of harm. Rent and council tax areas, utility debt, disrupted benefits, damaged credit histories, lack of banking access leading to housing insecurity, poverty, and postsepparation abuse. The pilot found that addressing these complex and interconnected harms required coordinated trauma-informed support rather than just debt advice alone. The pilot also highlighted systemic barriers within our institutions including local authorities, the DWP, creditors, housing providers, and banks where women were often required to repeat repeatedly recount traumatic experiences provide difficult to obtain evidence and navigate complex processes despite debts frequently arising directly from economic abuse and coercive control. As we heard earlier today, the project structure demonstrated how improving communication and reducing stigma through partnership working enabled faster, more joined up support. And as we pu pursue public sector reform over the course of this session, if we are serious about eradicating violence against women and girls, multi- agency cooperation like this pilot must be embedded across all areas of policy and public service to change the culture in our institutions. Those involved in the pilot have indicated to me that there remains a high demand for this service and along with the fund to leave scheme both have served to highlight the vital need for financial assistance for leaving and more importantly for being able to stay away from an abusive partner. To finish presiding officer, while legislation is undoubtedly essential until we change culture both in our society and our institutions, violence against women will remain endemic. But there is a lot to be hopeful about. I see it in the adults that coach my son's football club. I see it in those young people taking part in the mentors against violence program in our high schools. I see it in the work of PC Scott McCullik and I see it in the priority that the first minister in the Scottish government have given to making this issue a central central to our work in this parliament. The women and girls in those empty chairs matter and we will only have succeeded when there are no more empty chairs. Can I advise the chamber that we do have some time in hand for interventions if people want to take them? Uh, I invite Katie Hagman to be followed by Maggie Chapman. >> Thank you, presiding officer. In 2023, the World Health Organization estimated that globally one in three round 31.6% 6% of women worldwide, that's 840 million women and girls have been subjected to either physical and/or sexual violence in their lifetime. As it's been said, this is a worldwide pervasive issue. And while we cannot change the whole world, we can start by getting it right here in Scotland. Positioning this so prominently within the program for government has rightly elevated the issue and I thank the first minister for ensuring this is and will remain front and center. Last week I spoke in this chamber about the age-old issue of misogyny, the wielding of power and control over women and how some of the conversations today are encapsulated in the shiny new phenomenon of the manosphere. For those that may have missed this, let me be very clear once again. The manosphere is not new. It is the same old pernacious attempts to gain power and control over women now amplified online. Recently, I had the pleasure of welcoming Jennifer Snell, the chief executive, and Dr. Mar Sanchez Fernandez, the research and policy lead from the young women's movement to parliament. Their concerns were crystal clear. Digital violence is having a huge impact on young women in Scotland. While this was concerning to hear, I welcomed that the organization is not shying away but facing the issue directly by focusing their flagship research project status of young women in 2026 on digital violence. That research will help us understand the real life impact of digital violence on young women in Scotland today. and once published must inform our national approach. I would ask directly of the first minister that he and his government ensures these findings are acknowledged and responded to as part of his wider commitments made today. However, we must also recognize that women do not experience violence as one single uniform group. That means recognizing the intersectional experiences of women across Scotland. The young women's movement survey that I spoke of is open to all those aged 16 to 30 that identify as young women, as trans women, and as non-binary persons. And when I met with the Disability Equality Scotland this summer, they too reiterated the threat of digital violence as a major concern for them, which of course includes disabled women. So I want to make a second ask of the first minister that disabled women are not left out of our national plans and commitments to prevent violence against women and girls. For those of you who may not know, the MeToo movement was founded in 2006 by Tana Burke to support survivors of sexual violence, particularly young women of color. However, the movement only went viral on social media in 2017 with the hashtagmeto flooding online platforms following the revelations around the Harvey Weinstein scandal. Women across the globe, including here in Scotland, joined in and spoke out. I was one of those women. In 2017, I posted Me Too. And while I knew my own experience, seeing just how many friends were posting was absolutely shocking. That moment showed the power of women speaking out. But awareness alone is not enough. It must lead to action. In 10 weeks time, it will be the 25th of November, the start of the 16 days of activism against gender-based violence. An international event where each year women take to the streets to reclaim the night in marches. Events are planned and workplaces are focused on training and support with incredible organizations like White Ribbon Scotland sharing their knowledge and doing what they can to ensure that men are included in the solution. The 16 days of activism concludes on the 10th of December, International Human Rights Day, marking the anniversary of the United Nations General Assembly's adoption of the Universal Declaration of Human Rights in 1948. The first article is clear and simple. All human beings are born free and equal in dignity and rights. Preventing violence against women and girls and building an equally safe Scotland is fundamentally a human rights issue. We all have a responsibility to be part of the solution and to do everything we can to eradicate this deeprooted and unacceptable violence from our society for good. Thank you. Thank you. I call Maggie Chapman to be followed by Paul McClennon. Thank you, presiding officer. And I remind members of my register of interests. Prior to my election in 2021, I worked for a rape crisis center. I'd love to effing slit her throat. You deserve to be punched and then some. Nurse, that has escaped again. Lock it up. Direct quotes from men directed towards me. The first in Abodine by a man apparently protecting women and girls as he yelled abuse at me and others because we were standing between him and a hotel used to accommodate asylum seekers. the other two by men on social media in response to posts about bus travel and university job cuts. Totally normal behavior apparently. I am a survivor of gender-based violence like many women in this chamber. But as a cis white woman, I am less likely to face violence than women of color, disabled women, trans women. These women are routinely targeted by the farright and others, including by members in this chamber. The farright has cynically exploited the very serious issue of violence against women. Activists and politicians claim again and again that migrants perpetrate most of the violence against women. We've heard it this afternoon when the evidence contradicts this and points to high domestic abuse rates in their own ranks. They say our trans siblings are a danger to women despite the fact that trans people are no more likely than cisgender people to be sex offenders. In fact, trans people are much more likely to be the victims of certain crimes, including sexual offenses. Worst of all, this far-right framing obscures the true causes of violence against women. If we don't understand that, we have no hope of eradicating it. All forms of gender by based violence have the same root cause, the patriarchy. Gender inequality shaped by patriarchy, reinforced by toxic masculinity, gender stereotypes, poverty and inequality, and exploited by far-right extremists and their appetites drives violence against women. In her final statement in the trial of the men that drugged and raped her, Jiselle Pelico called for an end to the macho patriarchal society. I echo that call today. The p the patriarchy creates many forms of gender-based violence. I want to focus briefly on coercive control. Coercive control was finally criminalized in 2019. Prosecution and convictions have improved, but only about 8% of domestic abuse charges are made under the act's definition of abusive behavior. Glazggo University's professor Michelle Berman found that frontline police officers don't have the skills or resources to adequately identify and investigate coercive control. I know from case work that frontline healthare workers also miss this abuse which is a factor in the shocking number of domestic abuse victims taking their own lives. Estimates suggest there are twice as many domestic abuse related suicides as there are domestic homicides. We must do better to understand, investigate and prosecute coercive control. And we must remove the enablers that exist in state support. Abusers should never be able to use social security payments to perpetrate their abuse. As well as improving understanding and recognition of domestic abuse, we must do more to provide sustainable funding for the lifesaving services that support survivors. Too many wait too long for help. Some never even get on to waiting lists. We must inflationp proof all funding for such services and I believe ensure a legal right to a set of core minimum standard service standards for women and their children affected by violence. Without that we risk continuing to underfund vital services to tolerate a postcode lottery of support. If we mean any of the fine words that we have has spoken today, we must honor survivors with action. fierce unapologetically feminist action. We must take action that dismantles the patriarchal systems that harm women and gender diverse people. That action must liberate because ending violence against women is not about tackling individual instances of violence, however numerous. It is about transforming society. It is liberation. Thank you. >> Thank you, Miss Chapman. Could I remind members that profanity or shortening of uh of profane words is not allowed in the chamber. And while I appreciate that this was a quote and not a direct um contribution by the member, I would ask that everyone respect the presiding office ruling in that effect going forward. I now call Paul Mlennon to be followed by Patricia Gibson. >> Thank you, presiding officer. I welcome this debate and the Scottish government's determination under the first minister's leadership to prevent violence against women and girls to build an equally safe Scotland. Violence against women and girls has no place in our society. Is a violation of human rights and it's a barrier to genuine equality. I can walk at night without a thought. My daughter and my wife can't. Equally gives us a clear vision. a Scotland where women and girls live free from violence, abuse, cursive control and exploitation and free from the attitudes that sustain them. That that vision must be delivered in every community including any sen like every other part of Scotland. The challenge remains real. Nationally statistics show around about 16,000 women and 4 and a half thousand children are likely to be experiencing domestic abuse at this time. Police recorded nearly 1300 incidents against women in 23 24 a figure that has cons stayed stubbornly consistent. Domestic abuse continues to be the most common reason women and children present as homeless. But behind every woman behind every number is a woman a child in a family whose safety and future have been damaged. Now my commitment to this issue has been longstanding. In December 2021, early in the previous parliamentary session, I secured a member's business debate to mark the 16 days of activism against gender based violence. In that debate, I spoke in about meeting staff and survivors supported by Women's Aid East in MLON. And what I would say to every single male MSP, whether are new or or returning, is go and visit Women's Aid, see an experience, and speak to people and hear the impact firsthand. I heard firsthand about the courage it takes to leave an abusive relationship, the trauma for children, and the practical barriers, especially housing, that survivors face after these flee. These conversations shaped my approach then and continue to and continue to guide me now. In 2022, I signed the White Ribbon Scotland Ambassador Pledge, commissing committing never to commit, condone, or remain silent about violence against women and to use my role as an MSP to challenge men's attitude. As a male MSP, I believe that is essential. This is not, and we've heard this a few times, not a women's issue, it's a man's issue, too. So, to all male MPs, we need to we need to male MSPs, we need to lead. We need to lead. Don't walk by and we need to do more than just this debate. >> Yeah, of course. >> Julie McDougle, >> would the member agree therefore with the comments that you've just made that it's very important to publish the report that shows all data across the board? Paul Mlennon, >> I think the first minister's touched on that point and I'll touch on data in and and elsewhere in in my in my speech. Now, as minister for housing, I saw the direct link between safety and a secure home. I visit projects providing safe housing for women fleeing domestic abuse and supported measures to strengthen social land owners responsibilities, including domestic abuse policies and options that prioritize keeping survivors in their homes whilst removing perpetrators where appropriate. Now locally, East Loan has developed partnership approaches with Women's Aid Eastern Median, including housing first for women and an equally safe housing policy. These efforts matter. East Loan continues to make progress in that regard. The council and partners are delivering a are developing a local equally safe strategy that embeds prevention across community planning, housing, education, justice, social work, and of course the police. It does require a cross agency approach. Multi- agency work through Yeah, of course. Bob Doris, >> can I thank Paul McCulla for giving away in relation to the barriers in in leaving an abusive relationship. I draw his attention to the report of the social justice committee in the last session of an inquiry into this and one of the things that we find was that the UK benefit system has to be more flexible and there has to be a single point of contact where women can go and constantly find the financial realities of the support that are out there and that that point of contact should work collegiently with the Scottish benefit system to give women a pathway to leave an effective path to leave an abusive relationship. Is that something that the member thinks would be a positive outcome to support and empower women? The realistic steps taken needed and required to leave an abusive relationship. >> Yeah, I would in my time as house minister, we were talking about obviously the fund to leave which has obviously been and and thankfully been extended that that issue was was discussed with women's aid and was was mentioned and discussed with with people who were victims also. So I think that's a very important point. Coming back to the point about multi- agency work at MARA in the Calonian system helps protect high-risisk victims and holds perpetrators to account. Schoolbased prevention programs as we've heard are challenging harmful attitudes early but we've heard from Ross Greer about some of the attitudes that there so there's much work to be done that nationally the refreshed equally safe strategy and delivery plan correctly prioritized primary p prevention gender equality early intervention and robust h responses to perpetrators. They deliver an equally uh equally safe fund to support tens of thousands of people. Multi-year funding as we heard is is is certainly required especially for special services so organizations can plan retain skilled staff and focus on delivery. Education of course remains central. Programs such as safe at school mentors and violence protection alongside campaigns challenging misogynistic online content help shift attitudes amongst young people. Boys and young men must be equipped to reject misogyny and become active allies. always heard about the importance of justice and of course that must give survivors confidence that the system will protect them and hold perpetrators accountable progress and protection orders training and legislation and misogynistic harassment of course it's welcome and necessary officer in November 2021 I challenged every male MSP to be able to stand a year later and said they'd play their part not just during the 16 days but every day that day that challenge still stands as a male MSP we need to look beyond this debate it's fine having this debate but we need to take part and lead every single day. We've got the 16 days of activism as we've heard coming up. We need to lead. Male MSPs need to leave in this an equally safe Scotland strategy requires sustained leadership, stable funding for thing services, education that challenges harmful norms from their years and a justice system that puts survivors first. And he's slowly and across Scotland, women and girls deserve to live free from fear. Children deserve to grow up knowing that violence is never acceptable. That is the Scotland we're all working for. I remain committed to playing my part in delivering that. Thank you. >> I call Patricia Gibson. >> Thank you, presiding officer. And I want to begin by declaring my interest as chair of North Air Women's Aid, which is an independent organization in its own right. I'm glad we're having this debate today because women are being regularly killed by men. Often men previously reported to authorities for their abuse. But these women still pay with their lives because too often the systems in place fails to protect them. Any statistics from any country show the number of women experiencing violence and even death at the hands of men are in reality higher than actually reported. In the UK, one woman is killed by her partner or former partner around every 3 days or so. In Scotland, around six 600 65,000 cases of domestic abuse were reported in 2425. Now, I welcome today's announcement for a special sexual offenses court pilot. But unfortunately, many cases never get to court. Many women are too afraid of their abusers to follow through with a court process which means her abuser is not held to account and so she is not protected from them. So what do these womens do? The abuse continues and those women think their only option is to manage their abuser. The problems of intimate homicides is a problem borne mainly by women and perpetrated by men. There are no crimes allegedly more difficult to prosecute than rape, coercive control, and domestic abuse. Conviction rates remain very low. The reality is in Scotland right now and in many other jurisdictions that just because someone is arrested or charged or even convicted of a crime, that does not mean the victim is protected. And I'm very keen for the Scottish government to engage in this issue of um uh pay cuts to assist workers in Glasgow who provide court advocacy service to vulnerable women who are facing down their abusers in court. That service is used by women across 13 local authorities and we need to ensure stability in that workforce providing that vital service. When women press charges against their abuser, they know they are taking a risk. They need to know they are protected. They need to trust the system more than they fear the consequences of leaving. I'll take an intervention. >> Russell Finley, >> just on the point of assist and the cut to some of the staff funding, I've written to Glasgow City Council on this matter. I just wonder if the member can share with me whether she's had any feedback from either the council or the government. myself. Thank you for that intervention. I've written myself to the victim's minister who I won't put on the spot at the moment and I've also written to the chief executive of Glasgow City Council because I don't think this is an issue because it's shared a service shared with 13 local authorities. I think the 13 local authorities whose women benefit from this service have got a duty to step up and between them work together and I'm hoping that the Scottish government might be able to broker that kind of cooperation. No one can guarantee what will happen in our courts. And so many women withdraw complaints and they go back trying to simply manage their own safety. We must work to ensure that domestic abuse offenses and crimes of sexual violence come before our courts more promptly. Delays in the court process, delays in trials can severely retraumatize victims of domestic abuse and sexual violence. They are left in prolonged psychological and emotional limbo. And there's a heavy human toll that court backlogs and repeated trial adjournments takes on survivors. Those who are charged with domestic abuse crimes are too often given the opportunity of bail. And I find myself in the very strange position of agreeing with Russell Finley when he says that often bail too often bail conditions are broken without consequence. That is the lived experience of too many women. Breaching bail conditions means that bail should automatically be rescended in my view. Maybe that's simplistic. I just think that women's safety demands that. Otherwise, what is the point of bail conditions? We've seen recent high-profile cases where women have been killed by violent former partners who were bailed. In my view, and I'm not I have no legal training, but clearly that suggests to me that judicial risk assessments for bail are not rigorous enough, and that needs to change. The pilot of the tagging offenders is a very good step, but it's one tool in what must be an armory of the defense of women from dangerous men. We know that GPS tagging is no guaranter of safety for women fleeing abuse of men. And let's be clear, GPS tracking is that it's a tracking tool. It's not a physical barrier to preventing abuse. And it cannot deliver instant personal safety. The safety benefit depends entirely on an immediate and efficient emergency response when a breach alert is triggered. But it can take up to 24 hours for the police to respond to a breach alert. The time gap between breaching an exclusion zone to protect the victim and the victim being murdered by her former partner is very real. It may only take a few moments for a partner, a former partner to slay a vulnerable woman. And we also know that onethird of perpetrators who do so at the scene of that crime go on to take their own life. These are not people who are particularly concerned about what the response of the emergency services might be. Justice and police services must have the capacity to monitor signals and act instantly for the technology to provide real world protection. And I'm afraid I am not convinced that that is even possible. So when we talk about GPS trackers, yes, they're a useful tool, but let's not build false hope upon them to protect women who face real danger. The Scottish government's proposals for a misogyny bill, of course, is very, very welcome, but that sets a long-term goal to challenge and change deep-seated cultural attitudes, which must be challenged and must be changed, but it will not it will not help women in my constituency in Cingham South and women across Scotland who are having to manage their own safety right now, day after day living in a hypervigilant state to avoid physical, sexual and emotional abuse which if they fail to do will lead to their death. The press in western countries often reports violence against women as isolated spectacles rather than systematic issues frequently lacking crucial context. They look for the sensationalism and the victim's voice is often dimmed if heard at all in the face of purant detail. In fact, I'm reminded presiding officer of the song Delilah, which is seen as a a good old rockish tune that people can join into when they're having friends around at Christmas. But actually, it belies the fact that we treat as something light-hearted a song about a violent man who kills his partner because he can't take anymore. using the old trope that women are responsible for the violence of men. >> Can I ask the member to conclude? >> I'll just come to an end in a moment. Officer, women are most frequently killed by someone they know with current data claiming that nearly 47% of female homicides victims die at the hands of a current or a former intimate partner. Research into violence shows against women highlights that over multi-year periods, roughly 89% of female murder victims where a suspect is identified are killed by men, often within a domestic context. So this is an epidemic and Scotland is swep is being swept across by that epidemic. We need to do better. We need to do more to halt the appalling abuse and murder of women. We need to protect women who live every single day of their lives with the threat of violence for our daughters, for our mothers, and for our sisters. >> Thank you. We now move to closing speeches and I call Willie Renie. Five minutes, please. >> There have been some outstanding contributions this afternoon and Patricia Gibson's impassioned plea, I think, was one of the best. I feel um privileged in this job. Um, I feel particularly privileged in the context of this debate because I've been, I think, honored to have private conversations with Stacy Hunter's family, her mother an her brother Sha, and her aunt Julie. Um, I witnessed deep entrenched grief, but with great dignity because they are determined to make changes. Not for Stacy because it's too late after she was murdered by her aranged husband, Jim Mayer, but for the other women and girls under threat every single day of the week. So I feel really privileged to have spoken to them and to be able to relay to them some of the issues that they want to have addressed. Um they have many many questions. Many of them remain unanswered and that is my first point and it was the point that I think Russell Finley made very very well. The process of reviewing cases in these circumstances I think are inadequate. that the fact that they're internal investigations by the crown and the police that can sometimes take months, sometimes even longer. That how can we ever retain confidence in the system when it inspects itself and when it can be so slow and so long after the family are looking for those answers. And then if there's a fatal accident inquiries as there may be in some cases, we know that that process can take years and years and years and the carate the the the the process moves on and people forget the circumstances. So I think the timing of the process I think needs to be investigated itself. But the questions that they want answered was why was Jim Mayor, the aranged husband, released after he attempted to murder Stacy? This was not just domestic violence. This was attempted murder. Why was she not told he had been released? He she found out when she received a phone call from a aranged husband's friend when he was in the very same car wanting access to the property to get some of his goods out of that property. Why did the system not tell Stacy that he had been released? Why was he not tagged? And we've debated some of that this afternoon. And why was he not reportedly monitored for a whole six days? They didn't know where he was and nobody had asked where he was. He was ordered to stay away from her, but nobody had checked whether he was complying with that order. And we know subsequently that he did manage to wangle his way back into her life, getting access to her children. All of those questions must be answered. I would like them to be answered now. And I know those questions were relayed to the first minister who I'm I was very pleased that you met an because it meant a lot to her. But we need those answers and we don't need those answers in a year. Certainly not within three years. We need them much more swiftly. They deserve those answers. But we need to have those answers here as well because the big questions about the section 23D as to whether it should have been in place or not. How on earth can we make a judgment about that suitability if we don't have the facts of cases, critical cases just like this? How do we know whether the GPS system would be effective or not? of we don't understand the judgments that are being made in the court about the suitability of individuals to be released. How can we answer the question about whether we have sufficient capacity within the social work the criminal justice system for monitoring these individuals if we don't know the answers to these questions? So I hope that we do reflect on how we investigate when these things happen. Now, I'm not wanting big judge-led independent inquiries. I'm not looking for that. I'm looking for speed. I'm looking for trust. I'm looking for the families to be put at the center. And so often, I think as Russell Finley set out, that has not been met. So another point I would like to make is the issue around about the support on the ground because we have heard repeatedly from various speakers this afternoon that the budgets for organizations like women's aid have been reduced and if we don't have the trusted individuals on the ground to work with women who are abused to make sure that they are safe that they're getting the right support that they're getting the right housing that they're getting the right support from the police. If we don't have that in place, their confidence will be even further shattered in the system. So, I just plead Mr. >> I just plead that we look again at the funding for these organizations. I think it's been a tremendous debate this afternoon. Some of the women, if they'll, if the men will forgive me, some of the women's speeches this afternoon have just been outstanding speaking on behalf of their children, Pauline Stafford and Karen Adam. I think their speeches were excellent. We need more of that. But actually, we need more than words. We need to get this stuff sorted. I call Holly Bruce to be followed. No, sorry. I call Megan Gallagher to be followed by Holly Bruce. >> Thank you, presiding officer. And it is a pleasure to follow Willie Renie, who I also think gave an excellent contribution this afternoon. The most dangerous place in Scotland to be a woman is her own home. And I think we should all reflect on this for just a moment. Over 200 women have been killed by men in Scotland over the last 16 years. And we have remembered some today. Stacy Hunter, Samantha Lee, Esther Brown, Claire Engles, Demi Hanowway, Jill Barkley, and other women of course who have been subjected to a torrent time of domestic abuse and violence at the hands of men. In this year alone, it is likely that 14 women are going to be killed. Sexual violence is on the rise and one in five women will experience some form of domestic abuse in their lifetime. Yet women still don't have the confidence to approach the police to report sexual violence or domestic abuse. And that should shame each and every one of us into action. And it should drive everything that we do in this parliament because it simply cannot go on. Our ambition should be not simply to just tackle violence against women and girls. It should be to deliver justice for women and girls. Women deserve to be believed. Perpetrators should be held accountable. Women and girls must feel safe in our society. And justice means that when our courts impose a sentence, that sentence means something. This afternoon I joined the first minister Russell Finley and Steven K for a round table on how we deliver that justice. We listened to survivors of domestic abuse, women's rights campaigners and family members who are working to raise awareness of the behaviors that women are subjected to in our society. But I think we need to be honest about some of the choices that we've already made in this parliament because when we look at issues in relation to bail, we have to ask a very simple question. Whose side is the justice system on? The Scottish government of course have changed the bail system which removed the presumption against bail for sexbased related crimes. This matters to survivors of domestic abuse and sexual violence. Of course, everyone accused of a crime is entitled to fair process, and fair process should just be that. But justice must also recognize the very real vulnerability of victims. We can't have secretive plea deals only for the bail conditions to be breached time and time again and again. Why are bail conditions not taken seriously? Victims can't be an afterthought in our bail system and we must be exceptionally careful about any changes that could undermine victims confidence and coming forward to have that confidence to raise concerns to put in their concerns about the behaviors that have been inflicted on them. But the same principle applies to sentencing and release. The Scottish government should abandon its plan to move towards automatic early release for long-term prisoners. If a court imposes a lengthy custodial sentence, victims in the public quite reasonably expect that s that sentence to carry meaning. And when we're talking about serious violence and sexual offending, public protection, that must be our number one priority. We should also scap the under 25 sentencing guidelines because I believe that if someone is old enough to commit a serious violent crime, they must be held properly accountable for their consequences and for their actions. We can't allow the suffering of a victim to be diminished because of the age of the person who commits the offense. And I think we've had a really good debate this afternoon. It shouldn't be about party politics. You know, I think Willie Renie gave an outstanding speech. which I think Karen Adam and others also gave an outstanding speech. But I think we've also got to be prepared to do what's necessary to protect women and girls. The Sunday Post has launched its time campaign to tackle domestic abuse and sexual violence. Thomas Hawkins summarized it perfectly this afternoon during the round table. When he was putting Marian Scott's piece together and editing the front cover of the Sunday Post, he said that he looked at all the faces of the victims who died, usually by someone who loved them. They were grandmothers, mothers, and in some circumstances, those who are going to be mothers. And he concluded that we need cultural and societal change. I agree. The Sunday Post decision to not to confront it, not to ignore it is the only way forward for each and every one of us. But campaigns only work if we listen. And listen, listening means more than a debate in this parliament. We need to change aspects of the law. We need to change current policies that are not currently working. That's what our amendment sets out today. We are hoping that the government will act in good faith and work with us on them because it is time to act. It's time to put victims first and it's time to deliver justice for women and girls. Thank you. >> I call Holly Bruce to be followed by Carol Moan. Five minutes please. >> Thank you deputy presiding officer and firstly I want to refer to my register of interest. I am a sitting counselor on Glasgow city council. I'm sick of the context within which we talk about women's safety. Why is it that something high-profile must happen for us to get to the root of the problem? And I must agree with Russell Finley on that point that he made earlier. The murder of a woman validates our fears. A new TV show strikes a chord. New statistics on harm against us come to light. And for a moment, we suddenly realize it really is that serious. Violence against women and girls isn't just something for us to think about whenever the media feels like it or whenever we want to use it as the latest political football. It's a national emergency and it's taking lives. It's in our everyday reality. It's the fearful walk home at night when there's no reliable or affordable public transport. It's the promotion you didn't get at work because you're pregnant. It's that feeling when the football is on and you know that domestic violence spikes when the perpetrator's team loses. Now, normally I strive for my politics to be that of a campaigner and not a complainer. But today, honestly, I'm just so tired. I've campaigned on violence against women and girls issues for the for over six years. I've worked with young women, older women, disabled women, women of color, all who work on the front line of violence against women and girls. I've spent 32 years on this earth as a girl and a woman. That's all it takes to be at your wits end. As previous chair of the Glasgow Violence Against Women and Girls Partnership, it's clear that the sector is also deeply frustrated and we cannot forget that it is mainly women who work in that sector. Now, I am heartened by the announcement of multi-year funding for VOG organizations who have been calling this for years. This needs to be on a statutory footing for it to be truly transformative and as my colleague Maggie mentioned earlier, also inflationproof. To be clear, the first minister truly has my respect and support here. Vocal leadership on violence against women and girls from a male leader is a welcome and rare reassurance. and the united front against this violence which the first minister hopes to achieve is a strong message of hope for many. Yes. But for just a moment, please allow me to share the anger and frustration that many women feel. How many more of us must be murdered, raped, abused, violated, stalked, upskirted, spat at, verbally harassed, or catal? How much longer will men continue to spin it that they are the ones hard done by? It was only a joke. Can't you take a joke? No, we can't. It's not a joke. Not a single thing about the situation is funny. And I'm not saying this for sympathy. I'm not saying this for attention. This is what women go through day after day. But since being elected MSPs, my MSP, my eyes have been open once again. Every single day now, I receive an onslaught of abuse from men on social media. That's my daily reality and sadly it's the cost of standing up for women and girls in the public eye. And I am sure others in the room get the same as my colleague Maggie had mentioned earlier. Couple of quotes. A vile witch, she'd get raped. I hope someone follows you down a dark alley. We're here to debate violence against women and girls out there in a world, but we need to look at our own house, this one, and get it in order. And I'm pleased Paul McClennon's point he made earlier speaking to the male leaders in this room. We're meant to make the lives of our constituents safer and better. Politicians are meant to be leaders. Every incident of violence that could have been prevented must live on our conscience. So I must ask you as my colleagues, can we really say that we're taking this seriously enough? Are we doing the deep work? As Karen Adam mentioned earlier, are we making it about us? I'm so concerned to see that violence against women and girls is being treated by some in this chamber as the latest tactic to divide us and turn us against each other. Right now, we have men deflecting acts of real violence against women and girls, minimizing our experiences, insisting it's the migrants and deny us of our truth. We know that it is partners, exartners, family members. We've heard from basically every party in this room that that is the evidence. That's the cold hard truth. That's what we're working with. Ultimately, we must change the behavior of young boys and men. And I'm pleased to hear my colleague Ross' um contribution about consistent um sex education within schools. And I'm also pleased to hear that um the first minister is talking about equally safe in school investment. But we also need to move from education into our workplaces, into our communities, and into our public spaces. and I'm pleased to see the misogyny bill finally making some progress. This, in my view, will tackle cultural change. Over the last four years as a counselor, I've pioneered work on feminist town planning at Glasgow City Council alongside planners, architects, academics, students, artists, and politicians from across the globe. That is why Glasgow has now declared its ambition to be the UK's first feminist city. But what does that look like? It looks like lighting our streets and parks. It looks like frequent nighttime public transport, more public toilets, pedestrianization, spaces for children to play. It looks like housing built for the needs of intergenerational families. We need to open up space, not close it down. It's not always about CCTV. >> You must conclude. >> I'd like to finish by mentioning some organizations doing the everyday graph. We've mentioned the young women's movement in gender amina Scottish women's budget group southside survivors see women finally financially included and assist. I'd also like to thank as Dave Lindon pointed out um journalists who are properly scrutinizing this issue and reporting on violence against women and girls. Um the action not words campaign Stuart Patterson there at the Glasgow Times is doing great work. to everyone who's dedicating their time to making life a place for women and girls to thrive in. We owe you a great deal. Thank you. Um we have no time in hand at all. So any interventions will have to be absorbed in the allotted time that business managers have agreed with members who are speaking. Can I call Carol Moan for five minutes to be follow followed by Sanger Biffort? >> Thank you very much presiding officer and it's a great privilege to follow uh Holly Bruce's excellent contribution. And there's been so many excellent contribution as others have said and I'm really grateful to close on behalf of Scottish Labor and contribute to today's debate and I really welcome the motion put forward by the first minister today. His leadership on this issue is so very necessary and I really thank him for having this debate today. I welcome the leadership of others from across the chamber um my colleague Jackie Bailey in calling out misinformation straight away. It's so important the points made by Willie Renie on all of us being responsible to call out misogyny and in particular our male colleagues. Karen Adams H speech was excellent and her points were so ma well made. Um and let's show our boys what is possible in this world. Um and can also just say that um uh a few people have mentioned the it's time campaign in the Sunday post which is also very important that we have other people speaking about this. Violence against women and girls is one of the most widespread human rights violations in the world. We have heard today misogyny, gender inequality and violence remains rampant in our society and challenging these behaviors and tackling the root causes require action and condemnation from every one of us. Creating a Scotland that is fairer, safer, and dignified for women must underpin all the actions throughout this new parliamentary session. and others will know, the first minister will know that I often talk about the cross portfolio nature of the work we need to do and there's no area that that is more important. Violence against women and girls remains endemic in Scotland, but it is clear in this place that we are deeply concerned about escalating male violence and that we do want to tackle this. Can I thank Ross Greer for the important points he made about our young boys um and education. It what really stood out is that um the you know it is a a a trend and we do need to get on top of it. But of course Ross Greer in his usual way does have solutions and it must be cross party. Um and that is so important and Ross Greer also raised the link between uh national government and local government and you know our communities. It is something that we need to tackle. Um I want to just um bring in first the digital world. Many people mention this um and it often amplifies some of the negative behaviors that we see and my colleague colleague Pauline McNeel really understands this and the nature of this the nature across the world that we're facing that we need to address the growth in artificial intelligence intelligence is creating new forms of abuse and amplifying existing ones and the fastpaced nature of the technology makes it really difficult to legislate in this area. But I thought that Pauline Stafford and Katie Hagsman's examples of where people on the ground are actually trying to work with communities and make a difference here and we can learn from that and hopefully keep up with the legislation that is required. But I think we need to listen to women's voices as others have said and I I hope the government will um take this in the way that it it's meant it's it's meant to to help move things forward. Research gathered by the Scottish Women Convention found that women felt that the Parliament in the last session had failed women. And I think that's really hard for those of us who were here um to actually hear that. But if we want to change things, we need to actually listen to those voices and hear what they're saying saying. Um, we had some commitments and pledges that are undelivered on the ground. Um, and we need to work out why that is and what it is that we can do to actually make us deliver on these promises. Um, that is why the the Labor amendment is about an actual action that we can take. Although I very much took on board the points that both David Lindon and Patricia Gibson were making about the the the nature that we have to have more than that in our armory. Um I'm very aware of time. I want to just like others in the chamber. I had so much to say. There's so much to say in this but I want to like others in the chamber to be clear that this is not a race issue. People of every race and nationality commit acts of sexual violence and domestic abuse. And we're trying to make this a race issue. It is clear that some contributors are cons aren't concerned with women's safety but more with divisive rhetoric. Um, Epai Chow Turfy reminded us again and others did as well that the home is often the most unsafe place for women and girls and overwhelmingly uh per perpetrators of sexual assault are known to the vict victim. That is a really important point. Can I pay tribute to the women and families mentioned in today's debate? many members raised the voices of women um and families and Russell Finley I wanted to particularly mention because I know that he does that time and time again. I've ran out of time um but I really appreciate being able to contribute to the debate. Thank you Berford. >> Thank you presiding officer. >> I want to begin today not as a politician but as a mother. I have four children, two of them daughters. One is in her early 30s and the other in her early teens. So when we talk about violence against women and girls, I think about my girls. I think about them walking home, going out with friends, getting in taxes. I think about the people they might meet and the situations they might find themselves in. And I ask myself a very simple question. Is the government doing enough to keep them safe? There is no excuse for any form of violence against women, girls, men or boys. In my hometown of Dumpries, we once had a much more visible police presence. Today, our police stations are open from 8:00 a.m. till 400 p.m. Monday to Friday and closed at weekends. You very rarely see a police officer on the beat. With sexual offenses increasing, we need better. Because if a woman is frightened, if a girl believes she's being followed or is in danger, where should she go? Where's safe? Where's visible that she can seek help? Safety doesn't stop at 4:00 on a Friday afternoon. And neither should access to our police. And this isn't hypothetical for families in my town. Before you get on your bandwagon, there has been widely reported concerns in Dumfree about the safety of school children in public areas and outside schools being approached by migrants in the local hotel asking them for sex. I know you don't believe that that could be possible, but it is right. So, it's important to be precise. Allegations must be investigated properly and nobody should be judged without evidence. Families are entitled to express their concerns. >> Yes. >> Thank you. >> Uh does Senator Baris of Barisford agree that all parties should set an example? So does the reform conference set an example when a woman was manhandled in the in in >> that woman should never sing. She was there to cause trouble. Yeah. >> Take a take a look at yourselves. >> Can I ask members to focus on the debate, please? >> Speak. I'm hoping you heard me. >> So, what's the response to these school girls that have been approached? Personal safety alarms given to children. These are not grown women we are talking about. These are school girls. Children should be able to walk through. No thank you. No thank you. Children should be able to walk through their own town, meet their friends, and go shopping without fear. A personal alarm is not the answer to making our girls feel safe. Now, there's a leaflet that the Labor Party produced telling asylum seekers not to rape women or children. We should be dealing with the cause of that fear, investigating allegations properly, preventing harassment, and ensuring that anyone who poses a risk is dealt with efficiently. No, she won't. And that is why when I speak about this today, I am angry. Women and girls need a justice system capable of protecting them, not a political class focused on sound bites rather than facts. So what are we actually doing about it? We hear strategies, reviews, working groups, and proposed legislation. Meanwhile, victims face long waits for justice, and our prisons remain under enormous pressure. In summer 2024, 477 prisoners were released early as an emergency measure. In February 25, the automatic release point for eligible short-term prisoners was reduced from 50% to 40%. And hundreds more were subsequently released. All because of the underlying problem that Scotland does not have nearly enough prison capacity. Well, I think that a sentence has to mean something. Because the public must believe that if someone commits a serious crime, the state will punish them. Victims have to believe it and offenders have to fear it. Because when the chances of being caught appear low, justice takes too long and prisons cannot accommodate the sentences of inmates. Confidence in the entire system collapses. This summer, I spoke with the Rape Crisis Center about cases where protective measures are being used instead of prosecution. So, let me be very clear. Protection is not a substitute for justice. A protection order may help safeguard a victim, but protection should accompany justice, not replace it. I also want to address our immigration crisis because we cannot have an honest debate about capacity while being frightened to discuss it. And before anybody jumps up to tell me immigration is reserved, I know it is. But when our first minister stands in a t-shirt that reads refugees welcome here, the issue becomes up for debate. And I also want to acknowledge before you all press your intervention buttons. The majority of people in Scottish prisons are British nationals. I know that we have enough bad people of our own. But when our prisons are so full that governments are repeatedly resorting to early release and our courts are struggling with serious backlogs and victims are waiting years for their cases to reach trial, it is clear that we simply do not have the capacity to manage any additional population increase safely. And there is another issue we should not be frightened to discuss and that is shared values. Women in this country fought extraordinarily hard for freedoms we now regard as fundamental. The right to work, the right to vote, the right to live independently, the right to choose whom they marry, the right to say no, and the right to bodily autonomy, and the right to walk down a street without being harassed, threatened, or treated as someone else's property. These principles are not negotiable. Yet the S SNP themselves have acknowledged the misogyny remains a serious problem. So if you campaign to import individuals from countries that do not hold any of the same values, if you choose to import misogyny, you cannot be surprised when the issue what we are debating today is worse in 10 years time. So if we really want a safe Scotland for women and girls, we need to reintroduce local connection and use every voice in this chamber to force the UK Labor government to remove Glasgow's status as a dispersal city. This is not hatred. This is responsible government. No, she won't. Now, the SMP have said that they want to bring forward a misogyny bill, suspend realism, and say the legislation was great. Legislation alone won't make a frightened woman less fearful. Enforcement will, visible policing will, police stations that are actually open will, courts that deliver just as promptly will, increased prison capacity will, and sentences that actually mean something will. So, my message to this government is simple. Open our police stations 24 hours a day, 7 days a week. Put police officers back on the streets. Deal with the court backlog. Build the prison capacity Scotland needs. And make sure punishment reflects the seriousness of the crime. Because women and girls don't need another slogan. They need a functioning justice system. And I want to appeal to everyone in this chamber. Forget your party politics. Think about the women in your own lives. your daughters, your sisters, your mothers, and your friends, and ask yourselves, after nearly two decades of an SMP government, are Scotland's women and girls genuinely safer? I'd say no. Then ask yourself another, how much longer are you prepared to defend a system that is failing them? Women are failed when they are assaulted. They're failed when they report an offense and justice takes too long. They are failed when the state lacks the capacity to enforce the sentences that its own court imposes. And our children are failed when the answer to their fear is to hand them a personal safety alarm and expect them to get on with it. >> You wind up, please. >> Y >> I am angry because my daughters deserve better. Everyone's daughters deserve better. And every woman and girl in Scotland deserves better. And this isn't men versus women. It's the difference between a state that protects its people and a state that makes excuses for failing to do so. And it's a shame he's didn't mention Nan Whitam while you're shouting about violence and women. Thank you, Cabinet Secretary, to wind up the debate. 9 minutes, please. >> Thank you very much, presiding officer. Today's debate has provided a really important opportunity to recognize that we all have a part to play in challenging the attitudes and behavior that sustain violence against women and girls and can I welcome contributions from the members who attempted to do just that. As the first minister has said and it's strongly articulated in the program for government, we cannot tackle violence against women without addressing it through its cause in society. and that is women's unequal place in our society. That's why the work we do on anti-poverty measures and the cost of living crisis as well as increasing economic tun opportunities is so important. Can I thank Jackie Billy for um her speech and particularly how she began her uh remarks. Can I commend her for tackling that misinformation that we've heard in the chamber today? She raised many points which I agree with us indeed when Pauline McNeel was speaking um to particularly when it came to rape crisis centers um and other services. I would point out that in 2627 there was a 5% increase in the funding for rape crisis services and we have now seen multi-year funding albeit just for two years but we have made that commitment h to go further particularly also recognizing where there are gaps in the services that are already there and I'd be happy to sit down whether it's with Jackie Bailey Paul McNeel or Carol Mockin to discuss the issues where we have a a shared understanding of where the government does need to go further and I welcome that opportunity. to be able to do that with them. Can I also pay tribute to Russell Finley and indeed Wereni and others who particularly brought the experiences of the victims, the survivors of domestic abuse and sexual violence um as to the chamber today and recognize their extraordinary bravery. Many of the speeches including Russell Finley's and Willie Reny's rightly challenged the govern government government to go further. And although I do believe that our program for government does take us further, we can never be complacent and we must recognize uh that people will continue to question uh to point to areas where they still think there is room for improvement or change. And we need to be open to that. Families and indeed survivors deserve no less. and we will continue across government to have those types of discussions uh with members. I'll give way to Breny. We can be brief. Thank you. >> Will there any could could the cabinet secretary address the point that both Russell Finley and myself made about in the system investigating itself following murders like Stacy Hunter because surely the system as we've got is too long and it's too inward looking. >> Cabinet Secretary. Well, it was a very powerful point that Willie Renie um made um on this h issue and I know that the first minister has heard that point directly and reflected on that as has the justice secretary and I think that's an important example of how we continue to challenge ourselves to to make sure that we've got the right systems in place. Presiding officer Katy Hagman pointed out quite correctly that the manosphere isn't new. It's just got a different face to it, but it's been there in perpetuity. And can I pay tribute to uh the speech given by Epowcha Turvy? I think the second week in a row. I'm in complete agreement with her on many of the points that she's raised. The online and technologically facilitated violence against women and girls is exceptionally important because we have to make sure that our law keeps up with the threats that women face. Um and that is a particular challenge. Now, we've seen the government rise to that challenge in the past when it's went from simply looking at domestic abuse around physical but then coercive control, financial abuse as other members, I think Pauline Stafford mentioned, but we need to continue to challenge ourselves and are indeed doing that through consultation at the moment. I'm looking at our work in the online harms task force. Can I pay particular tribute to my cor colleague Karen Adam who I think gave an absolutely exceptional h speech h today. She spoke about prevention and the respect and values that we need to teach and to show our young people about that healthy masculinity. And I'm particularly struck by what and I will check the official report to make sure if I've absolutely got this right, but we need to show them what's worth becoming. And I think that's such an important part of the work that we need to continue to do. presiding officer. Ross Greer has also talked about prevention in particular and that the fact that violence against women and and girls infects every corner of our uh society. The impact in schools both on pupils and indeed on teachers is exceptionally important for us to be aware of and then to act upon. The proportion of boys that hold deeply disturbing views and think that things are normal now is quite frankly beyond my comprehension. It's also beyond my comprehension that a large proportion of young girls also think likewise because they are now in a society where they are being taught what's normal and what's right in a relationship. And I think that's why the time for inclusive education digital discourse campaign and the other preventative work that's being taken in schools is exceptionally important. Prevention was a key part to the program for government and our commitment to ensure that we are looking at what's the most effective and what's the most impactful. He will, I know, have views on this and many other issues and I'd be very pleased to h work with him as I did on the council tax example he gave h on this issue and also for uh the points that Holly Bruce raised. And it's also important to recognize it's not just about boys and young men. It's about all men, it's about all of society and how uh we tackle that. and I've very much um enjoyed the conversations that we started to have on this point and look forward to working on that with her. Presiding officer, the first minister in his opening remarks also reflected on the fact that particularly when our communities and our economies are under pressure, we do see attempts to exploit violence done to women and girls. And we've seen that again today in the chamber presiding officer. I think Pauline McNeel put it absolutely spot on. It's abusive predatory men that are the problem. That's what we need to tackle. Any man who commits such abuse must face the full consequences of the law. That's the response that we should demand not just of the government, not just of our parliament, but of society as a whole. And we need to bear in mind as I said earlier on in debate and intervention and as many other colleagues have said sexual violence is overwhelmingly committed by someone known to the victim. >> Certainly >> thank you very much. I wondered if the cabinet secretary thought that in the thinking ahead about what changes we can make to the programs to make a difference that looking at role models for young men is something that maybe should be incorporated into the programs. >> Cabinet Secretary >> I think that's an important point Pauline McNeel um raised and I've got that down in my notes if I've got time to come back to but I think it is important that we look at the positive role models that are there for boys um and and young men. But if I can return to the point I was making presiding officer about what helps women. You know what women don't need and they don't want? They don't want balaclava whailing men dressed in black roaming our city streets pretending to defend women. We don't want the same men turning up at that one. We don't want men turning up at a march supposedly to protect women, threatening female journalists. That's not what women need. And we don't want to have women being criticized for having views and calling that out. Because when I read the reports of what happened at the weekend, I had names I was going to mention of public figures who spoke at an alternative march. And I'm worried about naming them presiding officer because of the backlash that will happen when I speak their names in the chamber and that will be egged on by other members of the chamber and members of their party and we need to call that out at every opportunity because you know what presiding officer none of the men that are supposedly worried about these women are there when we want to protect women's reproductive health services. None of the men are there challenging their mates in the pub when they make misogynistic jokes. They're not there about that. It's almost as if this kind of full angst has got absolutely nothing to do with protecting women and everything to do with creating division, targeting marginalized communities in Scotland and we'll have absolutely none of it. Presiding officer and presiding officer if I can also take this opportunity is you know something else we should have none of victim blaming victim blaming a woman for apparently being in the wrong place there is no excuse for violence against women and girls and it's a sorry state that we've heard that actually as part of her debate today presiding officer >> but presiding officer this is an opportunity for those of us who have a genuine interest in helping violence against women and girls to say that this violence is unacceptable and also that it's not inevitable. So the message from this debate can be clear if we want it to be. Preventing violence against women and girls is everyone's responsibility. We all have a role in challenging the attitudes and behaviors that allow this abuse to persist. and I hope Parliament takes the opportunity today. Thank you. That concludes the debate on preventing violence against women for an equally safe Scotland. The next item of business is consideration of business motion 1186 in the name of Jamie Hburn on behalf of the parliamentary bureau on revision to the business program. Members wish wishing to speak to motion press the request to speak button now and I call on Jamie Hburn to move the motion. Minister >> move presiding officer. >> Thank you. No other members asked to speak. The question is at motion 1186 be agreed to. Are we all agreed? >> We are all agreed. Uh there are four questions we put as a result of today's business. Uh the first question is amendment 1163.2 two in the name of Amanda Lindseay which seeks to amend motion 1163 in the name of John Swinny on preventing violence against women for an equally safe Scotland be agreed. Are we all agreed? >> The parliament is not agreed. Therefore, we'll move to a vote to be a short suspension to allow members to access the digital voting system.