Dave Zirin's new biography of iconic radical historian Howard Zinn

What we choose to emphasize in this complex history will determine our lives. If we see only the worst, it destroys our capacity to do something. If we remember those times and places, and there are so many where people behave magnificently, this gives us the energy to act and at least the possibility of sending this spinning top of a world in a different direction. And if we do act in however small a way, we don't have to wait for some grand utopian future. The future is an infinite secession of presence. And to live now as we think human beings should live in defiance of all that is bad around us is itself a marvelous victory. [music] My name is Elliot Orana. On behalf of Harvard Bookstore, I am so excited to welcome you to our event with Dave Zyn, presenting his new book, The People's Historian, The Outsized Life of Howard Zinn. He'll be joined in conversation by Howard Bryant. Dave Zyron is the sports editor at The Nation magazine, their first sports editor in 160 years of publication. [laughter] He's the author of 11 books on the politics of sport, most recently The Kaepernick Effect, and is the co-producer, writer, and narrator of the new documentary Behind the Shield: The Power and Politics of the NFL. Named one of UTNE Readers 50 visionaries who are changing our world, Ziren has been a frequent guest on ESPN, MSNBC, and CNN. He also co-hosts the nation's Edge of Sports podcast and co-hosts The Collision on WPFW. He's joined in conversation tonight by Howard Bryan, author of 11 books, most recently Kings and Pawns, Jackie Robinson and Paul Robson in America. [laughter] [applause] Which is also at the register in the next room. >> And tonight they're here to discuss the people's historian, the outsized life of Howard Zinn. The people's historian shows Zinn's presence on the great canvases of the 20th century from the depression to World War II to the civil rights movement to the war in Vietnam all the way until his death in 2010 with intimately researched stories from Zinn's life and career such as the way Atlanta's small Spellelman College where Zinn taught as a young professor helped launch the civil rights movement. Zinn's work traveling to Hanoi to engineer the release of PS and his continuing influence in the emerging democratic socialist movement. The people's historian explores Zinn's past while also demonstrating how his 75 years of political engagement with the social struggles of his time informs our perilous present. Dr. Cornell West writes, quote, David Zyron, a premier sports historian and cultural critic, has written a brilliant and heartfelt book on the great Howard Zen, our premier people's historian and social critic. In these grim and dim times, we so badly need Zen's genuine witness of deep humanity and prophetic voice of hope and compassion. We're so pleased though this is event here at Harvard Bookstore tonight. Please join me in welcoming Dave Zyron and Howard Brian. [applause] >> That's really interesting. Uh when we were working on these different projects, Dave and I spent a lot of time sort of bouncing ideas off of each other. Um one of the things that I wanted to ask you uh in in this book especially was why this subject and isn't it interesting? Don't you find it interesting that when you take on these projects, especially because they always take so long that by the time you're done with it, the book feels even more immediate >> than when you started it? >> Yeah. >> Yeah. I mean, like I like Howard was saying, I I first came up with the idea for doing this book during the pandemic. It really came out of this question that I kept getting from people. This kind of what would Howard say question I kept getting a lot. And Howard Zinn passed away in 2010. Uh at the end of his life, I had traveled with him to several locations to interview him on stage. I got to say, easiest interview in history. You'd just be like, "The civil rights movement, your thoughts." And then 35 minutes later, you know, five standing ovations. No, not even a question. No, it's word association. That's all you had to do with Howard. You could look at him and just go Vietnam. And then he'd make you look really smart by by it would just elicit this incredible answer and like I said interrupted with standing ovations and all sorts of stuff that he was able to do. And I got to say though just on this note his secret sauce was the sense of humor that you saw here because you know there have been a lot of radical historians who've done a lot of talks in this country over a lot of years. they don't usually uh sell out church rooms uh for charitable events in Oklahoma City, you know, that that's not something that you usually see. And then he would get up there and speak in Oklahoma, you know, which is now considered probably the reddest of red states, but he would talk to them about a time they were a different kind of red state when there were more Socialist Party members in Oklahoma than there were in all of New York State. and he would tell stories like that and make the crowd feel like they were a part of the people's history. And you compare that to now or that pulpit that Zen had is now filled with people just telling the audience who they should hate this week uh in states like Oklahoma. So that that's part of the loss that I think we really feel is someone who could connect with a broad swath of audiences by talking about a radical history that's inclusive unless you're of course one of the bastards with your foot on people's necks. But as as long as you're not person wearing that boot, this history is for you. So I keep getting this question from folks like what would Howard say in 2020? It was very much rooted around the Black Lives Matter movement. What would he say about that? Uh but then it quickly turned into something that was more mournful as people as I started working on the book and that's really it changed the book as we were going along like what would Howard say about January 6 and what took place? What would he say about the persistence of Trumpism? What would he say about the fact that 2020 saw the largest demonstrations in the history of this country rooted around fighting racist police violence and then you have both parties calling for more money for police, more money for policing, more money for high-tech uh in our cities. So I I don't believe in speaking for somebody who's already passed. So that's the problematic nature of the what would Howard say question. But fortunately the guy just produced so much in terms of speeches, contemporary writings that really makes him unique as a historian is he devoted the last 25 years of his life really to writing for publications first like the Boston Globe until they kicked him out and then the and then the progra I mentioned that by the way when I was interviewed by the Globe for this book it did not make the final edit. Um and and then and then the progressive. So, so he left us this road map of what he would say more than anything else in difficult times. And it just got me thinking like my god, what we are so missing right now um on the younger generation in particular who are so angry at this system but so despondent about the thoughts of changing it. Like what we're really missing is that sense of rooted optimism that's based in history and based in understanding the ups and downs of history. And that's what made, I think, Howard so interesting is that he was a historian who also was an activist first. And if he had a choice between researching in the library or being in the back of a room like this, he would choose being in the back of a room like this. And that makes him unique as an academic. And it also made him somebody who left us enough that we have a lot to reckon with. >> Why did you make this choice? And actually, when you were about to work on this, was there another idea? Usually there's when you're about to do a book, it's like, okay, it's going to be either this, it's going to take up the next half decade of my life, or it's going to be this. Um, how did it become uh the Howard Zen project? >> Well, it became the Howard Zinn project. I mean, I always like looking for some hook where where you do research, like the kind of hidden gold thing. And if you see because Howard, you know, he wrote a book about the highlights of his own life called uh You Can't Be Neutral on a Moving Train. And so it's like trying to find things that maybe he didn't necessarily ever talk about. So going through his archives, going through his research, two things grabbed me that were like, "Okay, I'm going to do a book." All I needed was a little hook. And the first was going through his FBI files and uh and seeing that uh the FBI, I mean, they're kind of harrowing. Like he was accosted numerous times. uh his his wife Raz was also harassed by the FBI. They both had files. This is all in the late 40s and early 50s. They were young parents of two young children. And this is also around the time of the Rosenbergs where you have parents actually executed with two young children. Um and the the period of the Red Scare so intense uh for anybody even people like Howard and Roz who are not members of the Communist Party um that they were being harassed and I read one of the FBI documents and it was all about how they were convinced he was a dangerous subversive and they're recommending that to Jad Hoover and Hoover did sign off on this that in the case of a national emergency this couple who were in their 20s should be jailed indefinitely in the case of a national emergency. And what their um his their big pull for proof that Howard Zinn was up for no good was that he had an alias that he used in New York City as he went around and did his political work. And that alias that they wrote so breathlessly was Howie. [laughter] It's it's a whole thing. It's his alias Howie. And then like this whole discussion about how he walks the streets of New York as Howie. And you you're you're just reading this and what what what's so striking >> when I think menace. >> Yeah. When I think menace, I think Howie. Anyone ever call you Howie? Ever? [laughter] >> Only if you knew me back in the seventh and eighth grade. >> Okay. [laughter] I I can't imagine calling you Howie. Um [laughter] but the the the part of it that's that's also so interesting to me is the arrogance of these FBI documents. I also just couldn't get enough of. like they're writing them as inter office memos with no sense that anybody like us and and I know I know you confronted us with the robes and stuff like like it's written in a way that's all right no one's going to read this so we can tell each other the truth. So what you see is frustration after frustration that he's not naming names. It's like who do you know in the communist party like I'm not going to tell you I'll tell you anything about myself. Stay away from my family but I'm not telling you one name of anybody else. And I'm reading this and I'm thinking how easy it would have been for the FBI to do like a SCOP of some kind where they're like he named name names and these are the names and then blacked out just as a way to mess up future generations trying to understand what he was up to. But it's so it's so funny to me that they they are just so arrogant. It's like they're painting this picture of him that's actually quite admirable >> from a writing standpoint. This is not a traditional biography. when I was reading it and I I left my book in the car. So anyway, so it's all marked up. But anyway, um from a a writing standpoint, it's not a traditional biography in that you're not writing about everything he did in the fourth grade and the fifth grade and the sixth grade and then in college and everything. You don't take on that approach. Instead, it's much more of a a book about questioning and and bringing bringing him into into today into contemporary times. What were your choices there in terms of making making that editorial choice? >> I got to say [clears throat] the edit it's a great question. The editorial choice uh revolved around my kids. I mean I I have an 18 and a 22year-old and these are kids who are have this incredible like anger about the way the world looks right now and the prospects that are being laid out in front of them uh for the next 10 20 years. And that goes for everything from, you know, this this horrific authoritarian government that we're living under to the state of the the ecology and the environment, all these issues, racism, sexism, homophobia, the way these things have been mainstreamed. I mean, if you think if you're 18, 2020, might as well be 1920 at this point for my son, you know, and and so because he's really just as an 18-year-old politically coming of age with all this. And I I just like, wow. I thought about what Howard Zinn meant to me in 1994 when my sister handed me a people's history of the 20th century knowing I would read it because if she'd given me the actual people's history, which is like this thick, it would have just ended up being like, I don't know, something I ashed on in my dorm room. You know, I just wasn't a big reader. But but but get >> mission for a biographer. >> I Hey, we all we all come we all work our own pace. Um, [laughter] you should have seen my Sports Illustrated. It's very dogeared at the time. Just um, [laughter] but that that actually that that's who I really grew up and made me become a writer was people like Frank Deford and the the literary sports writers of Sports Illustrated. But, uh, but but with with people's history, man, that that changed me forever. Like like uh Matt Damon's character Will Hunting said in Goodwill Hunting. I mean, it knocked me on my ass to read that book. And it's just like, what do my kids have right now that's really knocking them on their ass? I mean, they're on TikTok, they're the social media, all the rest of it. And it's just like this idea of trying to revive, not Zen because he passed away in 2010. He led his life, but just this approach to politics, a method of politics that says, "Okay, you think this is the worst thing we've ever been through?" No, we don't have to reinvent the wheel. We have centuries of lessons in this country of struggle that we can look to in terms of how backlashes get beaten back. And I that is the real concern right now that young people are kind of reinventing and relearning lessons that by all accounts we really should have learned right now. And this is to me there's no coincidence like the denigration of history in our high school classrooms. uh the legacy of No Child Left Behind and how it elevated STEM and defense research over like teaching kids their own history. They find history dangerous. They really do. And uh I recently um visited uh political prisoner uh Mumia Abu Jamal who's been behind bars for 44 years. And I was telling him about coming to Harvard Books to do this talk. [snorts] And his response was he said, "You know what? They are at war against history right now. This government is at war. And he mentioned, of course, the Smithsonian signs you might have heard about. You know, they are at war. >> Yeah. In Philly as well. They are at war against history. And he said because their agenda demands ignorance. >> So, I mean, I I wanted to write this book less of a and then in fifth grade he did this and more of a okay, here are the lessons from this point of his life and what we could perhaps learn from them. >> Yeah. And that's actually really interesting because when I was when I was working on the on the last book, the one of the more difficult things was the the reviving of Paul Robson that people did not know who he was, right? I mean, which is an unbelievable thing to say, but yet a very believable thing to say. >> Um, and I bring that up because if there's one one enduring book for a certain generation, it's that one. So, you know, people's history, most of us have read it, most of us have it. if we haven't read it, it's sitting there somewhere. It's like I look at that book like the power broker. It's like everyone's got it, but have you actually read it? And um you know, so as you're so as you're bringing you're you're bringing Howards into life in a lot of ways, but he's already here >> in a lot of ways because people do know him. So, the the question that I have for you on that is as you're deciding how this book is going to sound and how it's going to feel, um, what's the balance between this is what people already know or do people know anything about him? Such a good good question. I should be really clear about that. I talked to Howard a lot. I know none of these questions before coming here. So, if you see me go like this or something, that's kind of like my thinking move. Like, okay. [laughter] It's not a gotcha, man. It's not a gotcha in the slightest. It's just a, you know, the the brain the brain's uh chugga chugging over here. Um, no, the Did you repeat the question? No, I'm just [laughter] kidding. That was a joke. That was a joke. Um, I I I I got to say like in terms of just the broader approach to thinking about how it was going to sound and how I wanted to put it together. I got to say like like I leaned on the fact that every book I've written so far has been sports related. And I I like the way sports biography takes you on a ride in a way that I think traditional biographies it is sometimes a little too much like and then on April 26th, 1963 this happened and you may have no interest that it happened but you better believe you're going to know that it happened. And I feel like sports book they they do this overarching narrative and your writing does this amazingly. And I actually think that I think maybe you disagree, but I think your book on Robinson and Robson does this too, where you're taking the reader on a ride through really important events historically so they can better understand the present and not just the past. And so, you know, reading your book was also really helpful for [clears throat] me in the conception because there even in your book full dissonance, which is not at all about sports or sports is used to frame some of the essays, but it's not really about sports. It's like you're taking the reader on a ride uh through a set of ideas and that that's very attractive to me. >> Yeah. Well, I think what I loved about about this book and I think that it's important and it's so forgotten in a lot of ways is the simple act of questioning. >> Yeah. >> Just the simple act of saying, well, maybe there is a different way to look at this. And I think that that was one of the things about Howard Zinn that I really really enjoyed obviously in in his writing and also just in his presence. And so being in Cambridge and being in the Boston area, obviously he's on the front lines of a lot of student movements. He's on the he's out there. He's very very present here. What were you discovering about him as a figure here? >> Oh, in Boston. >> Yeah. >> Ah, the funnest part. It was like the chapter on Boston University. What's that? >> Making up words now. >> No, the funnest. The most funnest. Irregardless of what you just said, [laughter] it was the funnest. Um, no. I mean, it's about uh Boston in the late60s and the 70s and what an incred the the the deep deep contradictions of you've got this uh provincial racial backlash both against busing and the black freedom struggle. You also have the universities on fire against the war in Vietnam. You've got Howard talking about the demonstrations at the Boston Common against the war on Vietnam, America's war on Vietnam, and how the way in which those demonstrations started so small and then like the common just starts getting big, like the people and and before you know it, the common becomes a place where you would have, you know, tens of thousands of people basically having an anti-war meeting and people breaking off and teachings and all the rest. and the way that he he played such an incredibly interesting role because people just know him as a speaker but in creating like this infrastructure for movements too like how do we get people in a room to really just talk about what needs to be done. I've had I had somebody at the last event we did ask me what Howard would say about social media and while I really recoil from the what would Howard say because he can't speak for himself but you you look for these nuggets to try to at least know and he would talk about the importance of people getting together in rooms like this and then you think church basement whatever it takes like real community-based activism from the grassroots where people are are figuring out what to do And I think he would look at the atomization of social media and particularly the ways in which the you know the oligarchs have taken over social media and now constructed algorithmically so we're either at each other's throats or our words don't even get heard uh to suit their agendas. And I think he would have recoiled and said we we need to figure out a way to actually look each other in the eye and figure out what what it is we need to do >> or we just get video after video of lion cubs. >> Yeah. or we get video after video of lion cuffs or or we have to basically give our our social security number and a sample of our DNA to reregister for Tik Tok now that it's owned by the Ellison's who are also busy now buying trying to buy CNN. So >> forget about your testosterone. >> Oh yes, our test. Yes. Got to raise the testosterone level. >> Another thing about about this time period that when you're working on these projects, it it feels even more immediate. um when you're working on the research there's overlap obviously um in so many of the different movements because Howardson is like a where's Waldo when it comes to all the different movements of everything. One of the areas that he's extremely prominent in and there is a moment that is very parallel to where we are today is the second red scare and yet there's he wasn't very um open about that in telling his own story. So, as you're moving forward as the as the biographer and now obviously the official biographer in some ways until something else comes along, how do you reconcile with how he projects his life against what you're discovering, what you're finding? >> Yeah, that that's what's so I found that to be the most interesting thing because Howard Zinn was not shy about talking about his own life. like big stories about the black freedom struggle, big stories about the about fighting the war in Vietnam, and yet next to nothing about the Red Scare period. So he would talk about his time in the 30s as a teenage union organizer. He would talk about his time as a bombardier during World War II and what he learned from that experience. And then fast forward, it's 1956 and he's at Spellman with this incredible group of young black women who are uh becoming the leaders of the civil rights movement as he then performed, I think, this incredibly interesting task of trying to create space for them to lead at Spellelman and defending their right to lead and defending their ability to not just fight Jim Crow in Atlanta, but also the patriarchal structure on their campus itself, which was very much like like there was barbed wire at the top and his son Jeff said to me, "We used to look at the barbed wire on campus and be like, is that to keep other people out or is it to keep the young women in to keep them from going out and fighting um in the movement?" But then then it's like you have to explain like well how did he develop that approach of being like we need to let let these young women lead and how do I help create that instead of me as the professor and the leftist like assuming some kind of leadership >> and white male >> and the white male stuff big time >> at Spellelman >> at Spellelman of all places. Yeah. But it it is so interesting that that that to me that that was his mindset. It was why people loved him in the student nonviolent coordinating committee. people like Bob Moses and uh the Ladner sisters and Stokeley Carmichael, like people on all sides um of Snick uh were were also just so desirous of of his presence, his advice, all of that. Uh but it all comes out of the Red Scare period to me. >> Why do you think that was why do you think that period is not something he >> I think he never That's a great question. Like I think he never talked about it more than anything because he felt so badly uh burned or even traumatized by the experience. I mean he was some there is another world and he never wrote or talked about this but there's another world where he becomes like a city councilman in New York City or even like a a far left like the mom Donnie of the 1950s if there's no red scare. like he was doing city-wide panels in his late 20s with the leading politicians in the city, speaking out uh in in in traditionally black neighborhoods in Brooklyn against mostly against uh police violence um against returning black vets. That was an issue in which he really was centered upon. and he was in the mix and he was the head of the chapter of what at the time might have been the most important organization in the United States that has been completely been written out of history Paul Robson style a group called the American Veterans Committee had a 100,000 members multi-racial branches all over the Jim Crow South and it was completely destroyed by McCarthyism the red scare everything and Howard Zinn was the leading voice in the American American Veterans Committee to say, "We cannot kick people out of this organization based on their political beliefs." And the person who was making the argument against him was someone y'all might have heard of, another ABC member named Ronald Reagan, who was Can you believe that? That Reagan and Howard Zinn were in the same organization. That in and of itself is just >> indeed. And this is also happening at a time when the American government is denying people's passports the right to travel as you know Deoce and Robersonson they lost their passports for eight years. >> Yeah. Yeah. Brutal experience um to just live through that. And so he put he and Roz they they put all this work into building up those movements and then they saw those movements just absolutely get destroyed. >> And that's how he ends up at Spellman. He also ends up Spellelman because even though he uh got his PhD from Colombia and wrote a thesis that a dissertation that became a book that won awards, all this stuff, he got one job offer and that was at Spellelman College. So that's where where they end that's how they ended up. And he had some funny stories about trying to find Hanukkah candles in Atlanta, which is [laughter] um always an issue. like a lot a lot of fun talks with the kids about uh being uh you know Brooklyn Jews going down to the the south and the adjustments there in um but the thing that I really want to bring out because it's Robson related and like Howard you you talked about him um being like the where's Waldo like I I said in an interview recently are people familiar with the filmmaker John Sales right like that this is like like his life is like if if John Sales directed Forest Gump like just He's ubiquitous. He's everywhere. But he's not there as far as Gump. He's there as this like learned historian who's who's, you know, an activist and trying, you know, the way John Sales would would think of such a person. And uh and one of the places where Howard Zinn was, and I found this, he only wrote this in one paragraph in one essay before anybody knew who he was. Uh but he was at the infamous Peakstill concert in 1949 where Paul Robson was due to perform and it turned into a policewh riot. >> So he was at the first Peak School riot. The first one. Okay. >> The first one. Yeah. We you should expand on it because it's such a critical Yeah. Yeah. I did not think >> things that you wish you knew. >> Things you wish you knew. Yeah. And he he descri he wrote about um driving away from there and the amount of rocks that their car was being pelted with by people. He said it was worse than any fuselotti experienced as a bombader uh flying in the European theater just like like people just pelting their car with rocks and his wife Raz in the back seat with their baby Mila holding her like wondering if they're going to get out of there alive. But according to the FBI files, and again I only know this stuff because of the FBI files, it's like he and Roz are back from those concerts and within a week they've helped launch an organization called Justice for Peak Skill and trying to actually rest reparations for all the people who are hospitalized in Peak Skill. So they they were they were on it. >> They were about it. Yeah, that's the way to put it. They were about it. >> We are in overtime right now. so much for our 20 minutes, but we're going to keep we're going to keep talking, but while we keep talking, we're going to take some questions as we go along. So, if anyone has questions, Elliot's got the mic and uh Yes, sir. >> First of all, can you say a little bit about uh how Mumia is doing? You mentioned your visit with Mumia. >> And then on on Howard, um you said that it's surprising that they didn't uh the FBI didn't sort of uh make him out to be whatever. In fact, the FBI did do that. And you may know in a number of instances it was called a snitch jacket. >> Yeah. Yeah. >> And some of the best organizers happened in the communist party had snitch jackets placed on them so that they would be distrusted and ostracized by other loyal members of the party. I guess um the big criticism of Howard I think that's worth discussing and I think well never mind who who has made it prominently was his emphasis on movements. He was always into movements, movements, movements. I knew him quite well, by the way. Um, and and the criticism would be how about building institutional power, political power through elections or government? You did mention that kind of as an as an aside. Can you talk about this tension between movements, movements, movements, and institutionalizing power in ways including through elections? >> Yeah. just first very briefly um visited Mumi Abu Jamal at Mahanoi State Prison in a place called Frackville, Pennsylvania. It is a prison town. It is called Frackville. Um it's uh he's been behind bars for 44 years. I was able to see him uh the day before, somebody he was very close to, an incredible writer, activist named uh Dr. Johanna Fernandez uh who wrote an incredible book about the young lords called the young lords of radical history she was also um in addition to being a professor she's very to me makes me think of Howard Zen Johanna because it's like yes she she had she had a PhD yes she was teaching but she was about the struggle she was about freeing Mumia and uh her her passing at at a young age um I know has rocked him terribly he called in to her funeral service he was the first speaker um at her service this past weekend. And so I saw him the day before Johanna's passing. So I almost don't even feel qualified to say how he's doing. It's just to say that he's um he's healthy, healthier thanks to his attorneys who fought to get him eye surgery. He was blind for a good portion of a year behind bars. You can imagine how scary that is, especially for somebody who's working on their PhD, Cal Santa Cruz, on the life of France Venan. Um, so he he's doing he's doing the work. He's staying very up on things. He is respected in the prison as what they call an old head who people largely leave alone. But we're fighting uh still for for freedom. I mean, 44 years behind bars, it's it's past time. He's he can hug his grandkids. Um, that's the first thing. The second thing is, yeah, h Howard was focused on the movements. You're absolutely right. And that there were those criticisms. I honestly think it it's all rooted in the fact that he tried to build those in. This is where you get to the red scare stuff that's so important as a kind of Rosetta Stone to understand a lot of this. He was huge in the Wallace campaign in 1948. It was it was a big part of trying people are familiar with that Henry Wallace third party left candidate. >> Yeah, exactly. left hand running against Truman like Truman a former VP of Franklin Delanor Roosevelt uh running on peace with the USSR as a plank and he was a big part of that of trying to push the veterans to support Wallace and that of course ended in utter disaster for for the left. it opened the door for the Red Scare in a lot of ways um the failure of it. And I think from that point on he just was far more interested um in how movements could could change and shape society and seeing how I mean how change could come from below instead of from on high. It's not to say, you know, and I certainly believe there's a relationship between what happens from below and what happens on high. Um it just was not uh his area of study. Yeah. And also say also Dave, people have >> everyone's got their place in it. >> Yeah. >> Right. I mean, you can't do everything. We're having this conversation earlier today about this is the uh 10th anniversary of Colin Kaepernick taking a knee and does it feel like 10 years? No. But the the big question for him has always been, well, okay, you know, the players turned on him. Well, you can't just take a knee. Well, [clears throat] he could and then you can do this piece and then you can do this piece and everyone has their their piece of it. And I think that's also a big part of the movement. you had a question. >> That's that's a great point. Um and a as you hand it to the great Rita Liberty who's about to ask a question here. Um it is that idea where you also see stuff where he's like, "Okay, they're writing about that. This is what I think we need to know and we need to know this history." So that that then became like like laser focused for his own work. >> If I could tag on that social movement bit, I know little about Mr. Zen, Dr. Zen. Um fabulous. I especially love the chapter about Spellman because I I didn't know much about Spellman, but as I read this as a feminist, I my lens is always through that gaze of gender, right? And so I read that chapter with really intrigue and I wondered um how Zen uh thought about the women's movement >> um and especially with the sort of radical black feminism happening here in Boston in the 70s. >> Did he have connections to that? Others may know, I don't know. Um and what were his thoughts on that aligning himself and his work with that movement? What what a terrific question. Espec I and I know when you talk about Boston in the 70s, you're talking about the com. Yeah. The collective and um all the ways in which the those incredible um women who I've h god I've gotten to interview some of them over the years. They're so remarkable. Uh started to really understand intersectionality and how to fight oppression by seeing them as interlocking. um he was connected in in terms of street struggle and in terms of groups at BEu like if you were a any sort of radical group on campus or connected to one chances are he was your faculty adviser. So he was taking what he learned at Spellman in terms of how do you create space for others to lead while also finding a place for yourself to be an active participant. Uh, and and so that I' I've always felt like was his contribution to it in addition to writing about the women's movement and people's history and attempting to integrate that into the broader structure of what was happening. Now, was he in the throws of the women's movement the way he was in the black freedom struggle? No, he wasn't. It was the 70s was a very intense time also of him trying to keep his job at BEu in the face of a guy people might have heard of named John Silver who one of the great villains of the book. There we go. I there was >> needs a villain. >> There was a request to have a silver dart board here tonight. That's that just shows you like like like some you we we don't forget our side or actually we do but we got to do a better job of not forgetting and u and and silver being somebody because he's so Trumpy and pre-Trump in terms of how he was running Boston University in the 1970s. The lessons of Silver are are are pretty profound and their fight is also fascinating too as a precursor to the corporatization of the modern university and that was happening in the 70s that we're all experiencing now. But um but it's uh the the Spellelman stuff I I think was just really foundational because um he he was so around all the socialist communist and anarchist groups in New York in the ' 40s and there was women there was women leadership in those groups but it wasn't the same as saying let's create leadership for women in those groups and that was the difference with Spellman like his immediate clarity in part I think brought on by the scars of the Red Scare and things looking like, you know, oh, somebody's pulling the strings and the like, but but him like, okay, this has to happen. Um, in terms of they have to be the leaders. The other thing someone asked me something that that I thought was really interesting is like did did he pause at all in supporting this incredible young generation of women, people like Alice Walker, Marian Wright Edelman, Beverly Guy, all just in like like if if this was the 20 like the 27 Yankees, sorry, can I say that in Boston? the 27. >> No, don't. No. 18. Don't. [laughter] >> Hey, what is wrong with you? The the 03 Red Sox of of intellectuals coming out of Spellman in 1960. Um 04. I screwed that up, too. >> 03 scored more runs. >> 03 03 was good. >> 03 was good. >> A good team. >> I think of 03. Um why are we talking about that? [laughter] >> But it's I'm sorry, Rita. I just love talking to you, so I'm just going on and on. But but it's it's just to say that like when when he got there um Albert Manley was the president of Spellelman, the first black president of Spellelman. And so I was asked did he have any trepidation about challenging this person who's in this difficult situation as the first black president of this school where you have this white board of trustees and they're putting pressure on him to crack down on these students and the pressures he's under. And the answer is really like when you look at it, he didn't pause for one second. He gets here, he sees these young people, they want to fight Jim Crow. They're being stalified not just by the southern sheriffs and the like and the local clan, but also by their own campus out of fear. There was a lot of fear about what could happen to them. And they felt, you know, he felt this paternalistic responsibility. But he didn't he didn't pause for one second. He was like, "This is the side I'm on. And anybody standing in the way of these young women from trying to change and shape their world are people that we're going to go through." Hey [snorts] Dave. Um, my name is Ezra. We met um when you came to my class at Mallister taught by Eric Carter to talk about um your book about Colin Kaepernick. And um one of the things that you do so effectively in that book is um is show how the enduring legacy of Kaepernick taking in me is all of the young people he inspired um to do the same who often had who were taking you know who were taking huge risks um and who were who were uh who were directly inspired by Colin Kaepernick. And so I I'm curious what it might have been like for you to to I mean clearly you uh you saw how Howard Zinn's teaching touched the lives of of the next generation of young leaders. And so I'm wondering like what it what it might have been like to tell this book through the through the stories of the people who he taught like how you did with with the Kaepernick book. >> Thank you so much for that. Um thank you Ezra. The the there there are two ways to to answer that question. First, interviewing the folks who he taught was really fun, like people he taught at BEu, people he taught at Spellman. Uh because you you learn something about the teaching style and you also you get these amazing stories of like here at BEu, not uncommon for people to come in off the street and just sit in on the class and there were sometimes issues of them taking chairs of people who actually were paying students at BEu. Yeah. And so so you know stories like that are always a lot of fun but but also you know you get in the nitty-gritty of the movements and I was able to ask them like well how did he interact with you in this particular student struggle? What was that interplay like? And that that that that's an important way to sort of fill out like the method question like what is his method regarding the left? What is method regarding social movements? And it filled in a lot of those pictures. But the the uh the other part though that was like talking to teachers now who teach Zen was fascinating. Like one teacher said to me like look I'm not I don't even consider myself a radical or anything but Howard Zinn is the only thing that keeps the students off their phones. And it's just like well you know public school teacher and they even have a phrase. It's so interesting because uh Zinn is easily one of the most taught uh historians today in what passes for high school history. And yet in so many schools they have a phrase for it. They call it fugitive pedigogy because the local MAGA school board they've banned Zin or even the state house bans Zin or a Donald Trump executive order called restoring truth and sanity to US history as they try to destroy any memory of actual US history. Um it's all it's all there and and so this today the echo is is is really loud. I just did a um talk in in DC near a high school and a bunch of the high school students came out to it um because that that's who they're reading in class. So I mean I I think there's a a rhythm with which he writes and a challenge to the reader about like these are ordinary people who made history. What are you going to do to make history? That is a point of engagement that a lot of histories, particularly ones about great white men, you know, from down high, but even a lot of social histories, they don't they don't quite catch the rhythm that makes young people both curious to learn more and to start thinking about themselves self-consciously about how they in fact can be part of this historical process. >> Uh just wanted to uh toss in another Spellman story. Um I I was a young colleague of of Howard's at BEu and had beyond that a long friendship really up until the time of his death. Ellie and I u and uh one of the stories Howard like to tell it may be in your book but maybe not is that u a faculty member at Stelman uh white faculty member one d one day came up to Howard and said is it okay if I have my copy of the progressive sent to your address because it you So it it's too dangerous for me to get the progressive on my own and >> not too dangerous for you, Howard. [laughter] >> It just it it underlines something of what that that time was like, I think. Uh but the question I wanted to ask is uh related to Howard Howard's work with uh Dan Beran and the Catholic left uh because um in that period of the late 60s and uh into the 70s uh the uh way in which Howard was able to you know talking about movement movements and the way in which uh he had that openness uh and recognition of how important it was to bring fairly unlikely uh uh allies together and uh his work with Dan Beran I think is really a symbol of that but but also a a a very important part of how the anti-war movement moved forward. So, any thoughts you have on that? >> Thank you so much for that, uh, David. Um, first and foremost, it really started with those early years at at Boston Common with those early Vietnam demonstrations because the Catholic left was a lot of what was a little. So, there was a lot of of people out there in what were very small demonstrations. And that's where he started like to voraciously learn, okay, well, what are you guys about? What does that mean? because that was new for him, the kind of Darthothy Day Catholic left uh philosophical underpinnings. Um, and then with Beran, I mean, he meets him for the first time. Uh, 1968, the Ted offensive is going on, and oh, by the way, they're being asked to fly by the peace movement. They're being asked to fly uh to Hanoi to pick up some PS uh over over the great chagrin of the LBJ and that whole administration. And so while while the bombs are falling, they're meeting in Hanoi and uh that experience with Berrian was a lifelong friendship after that and really tied him in closely. And then you know he he would testify for Beran at trials. I mean he was just he he was all in with that as he often would be when he would meet somebody and they would they would bond in such a manner. But but that that's a movie unto itself, the trip to Hanoi. So, I'm not going to go on too on about too much about that, but I if you if you if you want to check that out in the book, everybody, it's it's quite the yarn. >> Sheltered. Oh, yeah. Sheltered Barrian as well means underground. >> Next person. >> I'm Harvey Silvergllay, a local criminal defense and civil liberties lawyer. I represented Howard in an incident in which John would tried to fire him despite his having tenure. And I took it to the board and as in in an advertisement for the for the importance of academic tenure, I won the case. He would have been fired by Silver if it weren't for the fact he had tenure. [applause] >> Thank you. Yo, let's give it up again. Thank you so much. That was awesome. And um yeah, we we we've got we've got a lot of that in the book, the efforts to uh fire Howard's in from Boston University. So, thank you for your service. >> What incident? >> Yes. >> Well, isn't it fascinating as well that everything that you're talking about and all the things that you're fighting for and all the things that you have fought for, we're still fighting for >> and the battle never stops. What does Harry would say? There are no final victories, right? You just keep going and on it goes. And it's one of the messages that I think um we've often forgotten. Celebrate that victory and forget that >> battle's not over. Um how are we doing? Any other questions for Dave? >> Two more. Yes. >> It's wonderful to piece together parts of Howard's life through um reading your book, Dave. And I was thinking about the underground and that it just was mentioned and that um actually David and I were part of it. that we were one of the homes that uh sheltered Dan Beran. And uh it was a an amazing experience. And I think that the one of the importances of your book is to remind people that um there are ways to be um brave and shelter others in times like this. And that's what we have to do the most of is looking out for each other as we take steps to um resist and and isn't the question of needing to shelter others such a tragically 2026 question that we're living in right now. Thank thank you Ellie. >> Got it. It's um Go ahead. Do we have one more? Somebody? Anybody? Nobody. One more. >> I've I've read I've read somewhere that Daniel Ellsberg gave Howard the Pentagon papers to hold on to to hide. Is that true? Yes. and and um in addition to that uh howard spoke at the Ellburg uh Russo uh trial and it's hilarious as you read the the newspaper accounts I believe this was the New York Times it might have been the I think it must have been the times and they describe him as uh the 6 foot6 historian strides and he wasn't close to 6'6 um I I could I could make the joke as a Jewish guy that 6'3 is, you know, 66, you know, 63 Jewish is 66. But um [laughter] that's that's I I can make that. No. And but but but it's just to say that [laughter] like he he he was he was willing to wield his not just his demeanor, but he went into that courtroom to defend Ellburg by doing a discourse for the jury about the historical necessity of civil disobedience. That's what it was. It was a history lesson about civil disobedience. And uh the state's lawyer then choked as if it was like a guy who wouldn't swing at a 3-2 pitch in the ninth inning and gets caught. You know, it's >> he's a pair of shoes. >> Yeah. Yeah. He got there and he and he said, "Sir, uh how did you first meet Mr. Ellburg?" And he said, "I was arrested with him at a demonstration. No further questions." And [laughter] think about that for a second, though. Like he does this discourse about the importance of civil disobedience. the state then is like, "Aha, you did civil disobedience." And like this is kind of the point. So yes, and I got to interview Daniel Ellburg and and folks like Stott and Lind and and uh you know and others who have since uh passed and um they are the people whom I've dedicated the book to and I wish I'd even appreciated more like how beautiful it was that they were giving me their time to talk about Howardson. >> We've got one more quick one from the side. >> Yeah. Very quick, I just want to say that tonight has been a very special night for me. Not just to hear the two of you, but this room is full of hope. I mean, when I look at Harvey Silverglade, I'm a lawyer. I've been a lawyer for 40 years. I know what you've done. It's amazing. And there are a lot of people in here. I can see from the buttons and everything else that have been active and continue to be active. So, I come out of this with a lot of hope, which at this time is not an easy thing to do. >> Yeah. And also, could I add to that? And applause first. Thank you. Um, yeah, and I would also like to add two things to that. I think the first thing is we spend a lot of time and the opposition of hope spends a lot of time making you think there is none and making you think that nobody fights and nobody cares and there's this smothering effect that what can I do and then and that's part of the effectiveness of it. Um, the other thing I would like to do is to is to just applaud this audience. Um, I think that number one, um, we're glad you're here. And also, we are going through as authors a time where we're being told that nobody reads and that nobody cares. And that's also not true. um as we're out there trying to do you know this type of work and I'm really proud of my man Dave here for doing this is the um you know we've been told that if it's you know if it's not you know if it's not vampire sex or fanfiction nobody wants to read >> and that narrative non-fiction doesn't exist anymore. So I think that this is this room is a testament to that fiction as well. So, thank you both. >> And we we started with Howard Zin. I want to end with Howard Zen. This is a quote that I keep uh that I've printed out and have it right on my desk for tough times. And I just want to share it with you all and then that'll be that'll be it. Last word to Howard Zinn. This is what he once wrote. He said, "What we choose to emphasize in this complex history will determine our lives. If we see only the worst, it destroys our capacity to do something. If we remember those times and places, and there are so many where people behave magnificently, this gives us the energy to act and at least the possibility of sending this spinning top of a world in a different direction. And if we do act in however small a way, we don't have to wait for some grand utopian future. The future is an infinite secession of presence. And to live now as we think human beings should live in defiance of all that is bad around us is itself a marvelous victory. >> [applause]