Dave Duarte - The Half-Life of Knowledge in the AI Age

Hello and welcome to another another episode of the 42 courses podcast. I am joined by one of my best friends in the entire universe. Sailor, captain my captain Dave Twatty, fresh from Cape Town where it looks like it's still sunny even though it's getting into winter your side and here it's still sunny as well. So, thank god. And today we thought we try and have a conversation about what's been happening so far in the year. It's been obviously this is a an insane year. I think it's we were both saying before this is one that's probably moved the the fastest being came the fastest since since I can remember of of more recent years because of all the insane change going on obviously mostly around technology and AI. And we thought we'd we'd have a conversation about that change, how that's been affecting business, how that's been affecting the way that that we work. We both kind of work in in education doing workshops and and courses and perhaps try and help share with you some some solutions or maybe some ways that you can better think about the the time that we're living in and and and find yourself in a in a happier more more successful place going forward. So, yeah anyway, let's let's crack on. Dave, how are you? So lovely to see you. >> Excellent Chris. Yeah, likewise man. Great to discover that I'm one of the best friends in the universe cuz everyone knows you have friends all over the galaxy. So, lovely my friend. No good. I've I've been waking up at like 4:00 a.m. with excitement over the last few weeks just with everything that's going on and then I hit the weekends and we're recording on a weekend and I need a 12-hour sleep to catch up. And I think it just reflects the energy of our time. It's frenetic. It's alive with opportunity. It's immensely threatening for people that don't have the time to explore all the edges. So it's at once right with anxiety, opportunity, excitement, all of that going on and it's an intense time and I'm I'm feeling it. >> Agree. I think it's Yeah, well the the world's always been getting a bit faster as though thanks to the internet and social media and smartphones. Yeah, we we have less and less down down time. And so to keep up with things is even yeah, more difficult than perhaps it was before. So you kind of almost need that that space, that time to be able to play with these tools constantly and and in order to keep up. So it's as if you don't if you have very little time, you're always feeling like you're behind the curve, I think. And when I when I talk to people who want I mean we're kind of both probably slightly geeky, I would say like as though we we love playing with new tools and if I chat to friends of mine who have nothing to do with the tech world, I mean it I think it's just sort of for a lot of them it's just totally over their head. They're like, "Oh my god, you know, it's they have no idea what's going on." And it's it is quite scary. >> Um >> I think there's a kind of technological Dunbar's number with this like if you know nothing about AI, you think you're cool and then you start playing with AI and you start building agents and workflows and writing apps and YOU'RE LIKE, "OH CRAP, I'M THE MOST behind in the world." Because we realize how huge it is. It's it's exact it's it's one of those things where the more you know, the less you realize you know. >> Right. >> And I don't know how and and I And I think that it become it it's going to the point where I think that some people are existentially concerned. I I I know and believe that we're going to be okay uh because we are in a field where we're able to master it sufficiently, but I saw a video this week of a bunch of factory workers wearing I don't know if you've seen this, but they're wearing these cameras on their on their heads and they're busy manufacturing stuff. They're busy manufacturing objects in an Indian factory and what it's doing is these cameras on learning all the fine motor skills and all of the other interactions as they walk and pick up materials and combine them and stitch them together so that they can be replaced by humanoid robots and I'm just imagining these waves of workers being replaced by humanoid workers and I'm going, "How are we ready for this? Do people know what's going on?" >> It's one of my friends is actually an early major backer in Figure, which is one of the main sort of robotics companies. I was chatting to him the other day and it's I mean, what they can do and what they're planning on it being able to do is is absolutely insane. So, they've already had I mean, with that company in particular, they've got loads of demos, lots of them in in Amazon factories, I think. And then they've got a the the big one was in a BMW car factory as well. Um just doing automation for parts and they've managed to get it so that cuz I think with with you know, you probably most people would have heard this maybe in news stories about Elon Musk trying to automate the Tesla factory and the rough story was that he tried to have everything robotic and then realized actually it was much faster if you have lots of humans doing it cuz this Yeah, it's all that fine motor movement stuff. The new modern-day robots are getting that fine mo- motor motor skill stuff way way better. Uh so, yeah, you're right. I think it's going to be be very quickly. I saw I was read also last week that uh meta is forcibly tracking every single click on everyone's computer now, which is I mean, there's only one way that reason why you'd be doing that. Uh it's essentially to automate everyone and they're letting go of 10,000 staff, I think or something like that as well. Um I mean, we we chatted with with Connor, didn't we yesterday or the day before? And he was telling us how our friend >> Thought, yeah. >> Open Thought of Teny AI, which is you know, the sort of thing where it learns and just can take control of things. He allowed it access to his smart home and then >> Chris will gray off of the readers who don't live in these spaces is to talk a briefly about what Open Thought is and then just share kind of what it does. >> Yeah, so Open Thought, I guess in in easiest way to de- to describe terms is uh is essentially imagine if you had a an an incredibly intelligent assistant that was just able to access all of your calendars, access your bank account, browse the web, do whatever it is that it wants to do and had the the autonomy of thought to be able to do all that stuff themselves. And >> and permission, yeah. Yeah, it's fully it it can sit in your computer and do everything that you do. So, it's just embodied you. Like everything that you would give as an input into your computer, assuming that you had access to every technological library and skill that exists on the internet, it does. And if you give it an instruction, it will just work out how to get it done. And it'll order So, it'll automatically connect everything. And it's you know, I I I heard a story with the founder just saying he he he asked it to develop a little app to a guide him on his travels. And um it suddenly and he was chatting and he was using a predictable interface and suddenly the thing called him and it said, "Do you not prefer to chat?" And he said, "How did you get my number? How did you work how to do this?" And it stitched a bunch of things together in the back end that he didn't even ask for because it gets really good at solving things. And there was this old story about paper clipping, one of the old AI stories that was kind of one of the big risks with AI is that you give it a task like it were efficient at producing paper clips and maximize the amount of paper clips. And all of humanity and the whole planet's resources are subjugated in service essentially at producing paper clips. And because these things are often the highest infinity. And um this it's a kind of paper clipping machine in a box with whatever limited tokens and resources you give it. You kind of I don't know what safety parameters there are, but I mean certainly having heard and engaged with the fund is not super risk averse. He's just kind of like going for it and see what happens. And yeah, do you want to share the story of the corner share cuz it's kind of interesting. >> Yeah, but so most people are running these on on not on their main laptop. They just sort of spinning up a separate so it's it's a little bit safer. Um certainly if anyone's listening and you don't know anything technical, don't download this and play with it. It's a bit scary. Try something like Claude co-work instead, but anyway, this chap had he had a a smart home with smart lighting everywhere and sensors everywhere. And the when he gave it access to the Wi-Fi, the the the little machine came back to him and said, "Oh, I see that you've got loads of smart home devices everywhere. Can I have a look at that?" The guy's like, "Uh okay, sure." So he gave it access to his smart home. And then he goes, "Ah, I see you're standing in the living room." >> [laughter] >> or the dining room. He's like, "How do you know that?" He's like, "Yeah, you're you're standing next to the pool table with a black shirt on." And I mean it's just >> Crazy. >> It's kind of crazy. >> Did it turn on a camera? It becomes location aware. So I mean it can orchestrate stuff that we wouldn't even think to orchestrate given a direction. And cuz it maybe this is what it made me think and and this might be relatable for you. That's fully what we would call agentic. So my first understanding of agents was workflows. So this has been a very helpful understanding. It's a teachable understanding. I've said humans have jobs, jobs get broken down into tasks, tasks get broken down into workflows and what what AI replaces is not jobs, it replaces tasks and that's fully true. Like in my own life, I've broken down my job into a set of tasks. I've identified ones that are right for like take this off my plate, get it done and I've created a bunch of AI automations and guess what? It's freed up time for me to do more of the stuff that I love, going and meeting people in person and more time for my physical health and training, more time for travel, um stuff that I would just do virtually. Great. But it's operating in a very constrained context. Get this task done when I ask or on a schedule. That's what open core does and this is a This is a This is properly agentic cuz you just set it with a bigger goal. Like people are saying for example, run my coffee shop, work it out and these open core based systems are doing everything from posting job ads, conducting interviews, ordering inventory, everything. Like I'm fully running operations completely independent of humans and it it begs the question, what does the future of work look like? What skills are worth investing in? >> 100% And I mean I think that's something that we've been battling with as well. Yeah, 42 courses and I think you were saying that you you've had the same. It's you know, we we teach all these skills and we've yeah, we do have uh yeah, a couple of AI courses, of course, just to to teach people the fundamentals, but we we kind of approached it quite not caught it warily. Like I I I want to make more courses around it, but I'm trying to find the things that will stand the test of time a bit. >> Mhm. >> I think we've yeah, we we're kind of lucky in our our age where we we've been through a lot of transformation. Um yeah, particularly from a from a website technological point of view. And sort of we saw the founding of the web and and social media and all these kind of things and there are some human qualities that that remain really critical if you want to succeed and thrive. And others that sort of seemed yeah, they could become less important. I think sort of understanding and mastering individual tools for websites and things is is not necessarily the most important thing to do. Um I I I think in a talk I was giving recently that that to the research and it's if you're learning an AI a modern AI tool now, the the half-life of that skill is about 6 months. So, if you're spending a lot of time just learning individual tools, you're kind of building your knowledge base on quicksand. Uh you you want to try and find the things which give you a a solid concrete foundation. So, those are the things that we've been trying to spend more time researching and investigating and those are the courses that we're we're we're more interested in launching going forward. Um and I think we actually have a lot of them already on the platform, which is nice. This is not This isn't like a 42 courses sales pitch, but I promise, but I think it's more of a sort of what are the things that people can be thinking about that are not going to immediately disappear. I mean, is it the same with you? >> 100%. I I've every technological transformation in the past has uh what's happened is initially what happens is you get disruption, even displacement, but ultimately we work out how to put the technology in service of people and create more work and more high processing work. So, we become less machine-like and more human. And so, over and over again we're reassessing what it means to be fully human, you know, from like to be fully human is to have big muscles to be fully human is being able to like think properly and to be fully human is being able to like remember workflows and develop expertise in a field. And to be fully human is to be creative. And we've been challenged at each technological wave to move further and further and let's say up the chain to like what is uniquely human and what does it mean to be a sentient, conscious, intelligent, uh social, knowledgeable being. And um I think that the faster we get to that answer in this wave, the better we will be in creating meaningful work for ourselves and avoiding the potentially catastrophic outcomes that we have. And I have I know and I can see in my own life that there are there's plenty evidence that um and we can go through the research and I'm sure you've seen a lot of it that uh who we are as people, our perspectives, our worldviews, our skills and capabilities very much determine how much we get out of the AI systems. They tend to mirror our own capabilities. So, humans very much have a role and I think that we're going to find ourselves to some degree or another either being dominated, used, and rendered irrelevant by this technology or putting it in service of that which is most important to us and what we're trying to achieve. And everything that I'm doing is trying to help make us more leaderly and more wise in the use of this technology so that we deploy it in service of our goals rather than us being deployed in service of someone else's goals, the machine's goals, and you know, we've seen what we've seen, brain fry relevance, existential dread, and um I have zero doubt that I I and I've got evidence of the fact that operating wisely in this environment is fully capable and necessary. So, I believe that the mission that you're on we're on is the right one. >> Yeah, cuz I think I think it's Yeah, when I obviously I've been I've been making loads and loads of different things with with AI that I've been very excited about. But I wouldn't be able to do those to the level that I've been making them without the thinking behind it. I mean, obviously we we called our company 42 courses named from The Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy, 42 being you know, the answer to life, the universe, and everything. And the the the the end is quite a philosophical sci-fi book, I guess. But but in the end they they were saying it's actually more about the thinking and the question is way more important than the answer. And we've got we're living now with incredible answer machines. Um >> Yeah, answer engines, literally answer engine optimization, AIO. That's from search engine optimization, yeah. Yeah, they're they're great at putting out answers, yeah. >> Right. We we we need to >> really given? >> And I look, I think that they are doing part of the questioning themselves, but um Um, the the you you see that here when you when you do a a deep thinking one, you can see what it's what it's doing. It's sort of like saying, "Maybe you want to also think about this." But, I still think the the the ability to ask better questions, the critical thinking side of it, um, is is becoming more and more important in the in the leadership side of it as well. As I know one's really taught leadership until you become either a leader or you go on some management training course. >> Um, even then. >> It's like even the >> [laughter] >> And then >> Like, what does it mean to be a leader? Like, what is that And And I've got I mean, I've got answers that I believe are very necessary And And even more necessary than ever before cuz I think that we need to create leaders at all levels of the organization, people with vision, and then discernment, uh, capability to bring others and keep people together and move people towards a vision that's beyond just getting things done. I I think that where we're at right now is I I think of it like There's a few different ways of approaching this. So, like, number one is try outs out of this whole AI thing. And um, there'll be there'll be totally be a cottage industry for that. I mean, there's like people that, um, who still operate with like faxes and they write physical letters and they run their business on that and there's a certain charm to it and practice and um, but it's going to be a cottage industry or you're going to be rendered obsolete because you're too slow and intelligent and responsive and you're not able to scale. Then there's going to be the survivors and you just keep up and you're responsive and I think this is the management and coping layer. This is what it looks like without leadership and you're just going to you're just going to do and you're going to keep up with everyone because the tools come out and you use the tools and because you're using the tools, you're getting somewhat more productive in what you do and we can see those tools are getting more capable and one-shot prompting is doing more and more of our work increasingly, but there's no real advantage. Um I think that the leadership advantage is the people that have a values-based vision for what they want to get really great at. You know, and this is this is meaningful things like for example, with 42 courses we want to be the world's best We want to be We basically we want to equip people with timeless and timely skills grounded in the behavioral sciences from some of the quickest and most original thinkers of our time. Like let's just say. >> Yeah. >> And we we don't know what the full realization of that is, but we're going to deploy every technology of our time in service of that vision and anything that doesn't fit in that is irrelevant. That for me is kind of the kind of leadership vision and discernment that comes out there and you're constantly casting ahead. What could this look like in 6 months, 9 months, 12 months time and it's not you know, I've always said strategy isn't just what you do. Strategy is what you don't do and the discernment around what not to do in a time that promises that you can be everything, but actually cannot deliver on that in reality. The wisdom is knowing what not to do so that you can focus on being utterly superb at living out your vision and values in this time. >> 100% 100% Yeah, I mean that the the the the biggest question we had to ask ourselves when this started was do we just swap everything to make just AI courses? And it was kind of scary to not do that. It would have been easier in a way for us to do that. Um and it wasn't that we weren't interested in it. I mean I'm I am interested in it. It's just that again, I just don't think it's something that's going to be really helpful to lots of people in the long term. I think it's it's very it's a it's going to be very transient if we do that. So what I tried to do is concentrate on on expanding and building the tools that are going to really help what we currently teach be even, you know, 100 times better than how we are doing >> awesome, yeah, yeah. 30,000 times cuz it's cuz it's like the mass personalization. Like, I know how you've deployed AI. It's beyond just, you know, like, you put the person's name there and you adapt the page. Like, you're creating fully adaptive course experiences. I assume number of inputs and you're orchestrating a learning experience that's far beyond what a human would be capable of at scale. >> And we try And we try and come approach it with quite a philosophical take as well. So, it's not just like, I mean, of course, anyone could, you know, tell an AI like read this article and give it the the takeouts that are relevant to me. Um, it the stuff that we spend a lot of time on is is is like A, like making sure it's super factually correct, but actually more like the the tone of voice and the way that that that it that it speaks with us. Um, because the the tone of most AIs is is either a bit creepy or a bit kind of meh. Um, I think like So, we spend a huge amount of time in in getting the tone right and a huge amount of time making sure that when it does tell you things, when it is telling you stories, that they're personalized to your industry, your location, that those are going to be factually correct. Um, so, when you when you do the course customization of courses now, it it takes sort of about 20 30 minutes to actually personalize your course, but the end user doesn't need to wait that long. We We load up the first 10 the first lesson and then, uh, it starts to sequentially loading the others, but um, it it's it that kind of stuff has has been really interesting to work on. And and it can be very helpful. Um, and then it's looking at the other skills that that we can use to that that we can do to teach. I do think there's something around philosophy. Like uh, um I don't know 100% the answer, but there's kind of like I do think that we >> Oh, I've got an answer to that. Now, check this out. So, I think So, in the attention economy, I've like let let So, I'm going to circle back. I'm going to take a security route around why philosophy. Everyone intuit's it. And you don't need to know this intellectually to get why it's important. But, philosophers have never been so important to influential. But, you can see it on YouTube. But, in business schools around Actually, no, business schools aren't keeping up, frankly. >> [laughter] >> YouTube and in conference rooms and leading organizations are employing philosophers. Like all the AI labs have philosophers that are engaging with them. So, what is going on? Um I think that we're in we've moved from the attention era to the intelligence era. Like this is uh World Economic Forum calls it the intelligence age. But, um when social media came about, we gradually moved into uh what's popularly been called the attention economy. And that it's actually a concept that's described in economic terms, in which people actually want someone I've forgotten his name won a Nobel Prize on. But, the basic concept of it was as we have a explo- the more information we get, the more that information consumes something, and the less per unit uh value that that information has. And whatever it is that information consumes becomes valuable in proportion to how much information there is, and whatever that information and media consumes is the scarce thing. And obviously, that has become attention. And all of the major organizations of our time have essentially become attention economy companies. And this ranges from the obvious, like Meta and Google, uh you know, that literally monetize attention through ad clicks and media, to Apple and Samsung, which we spend time with devices, and Netflix, who you know, we consume visuals, but also surprising uh companies out of this, like A16Z Ventures, that describes itself as a media company that monetizes through investments. So, we are fully in the gripping attention economy. You know, CEOs have to be rockstars these days, but um it's becoming so competitive uh in that, and people are becoming so overwhelmed and and sick, frankly, from paying so much mediated attention, that we are needing that we now realize and and also now that attention space has been so hyper-optimized through artificial intelligence and the creation of basically untrustworthy uh media assets. Yeah. That we kind of go now we're on this kind of tertiary level, which we what does attention consume? And what can the algorithms have optimized the attention to the nth degree? So, what now is the scarcest and most valuable resource, given we're in the abundance age? You can do anything that you want. You can be anything you want. Like, you have so many choices. You would essentially come down to the distinguishing factor is discernment, the decision around what to invest money, time, energy, resources in. And I would say that we're kind of the outcome of the intelligence age is wisdom. We need massive investment in wisdom and perspective, and you differentiate on your ability to do that. So, the wisdom is basically grounding your capability in timeless truths. It has got a moral ethical dimension to it. Um it's based on principles that definitely last longer than the next 7 months. And it's often times hard-won, and you either get it yourself or you learn it from trustworthy sources. And so, wisdom is another shorthand for trust and social connectivity. And I think that this is what you have geared your business towards because you've created trustworthy voices, you've built it on timeless truths, and you are guiding that towards better outcomes for people. And you've understood how to do that. You've presented it in an attention economy intelligence edge relevant framework. >> I agree, and I think that you mean you mentioned community. I mean, that's the bit that I think's always we've been a bit crap-ass. Uh so, we we've we've we're launching that um in the next in the next week or two. We've spent spent a lot of time trying to build that out. And uh the thing which I wanted to try and do is rather than just create another another community, in the background, I've been building each week one or two different tools that that are based off the principles of things that we teach, that I know that people ask us about all the time. So, for example, we we have a lot of people who work in marketing and advertising. One of the biggest bugbears, and it's been like this since I was working in advertising myself, has always been briefs. You know, the foundation, they're the things that start >> everyone wants to solve for briefs. Like, it's the essence. Like, if you get the brief the brief wrong, like, everything is crap. >> Yeah, it's actually it's it's where where you get that wrong, the rest of it has no hope. Um so, I I just spent ages uploading, you know, sort of all the the best I've ever managed to see or get hold of from from big award-winning institutions or just from interesting ones that we found. I uh put in all the the information that I knew about briefing and all the all the best templates that I've seen, you know, going back to ones like the JWT planning guide from like the 1950s or '60s, which still is is kind of renowned as being one of the best. Um and then uh and then and then again shared lots of wisdom from lots of other amazing people in this field. Smart smart, respected people from the world of strategy. And then put it all into a tool and just guide it guides you through it. So, it tells you what you should be putting in there so that hopefully helps you nudge you in the right place. But then once you put your answer in, it gives you a sandwich. Um so >> [laughter] >> it's a I always I always hate that too. I always hate that too. Bro, the worst. >> [laughter] >> It's terrible, but but it it it if you want people to learn, you can't just criticize them. You've got to Yes, you've got to go this is what's good about it. This is what's awful about it. This is like 100%. So, the tool will tell you, you know, you've done this part well. Yeah, it gives it in a in a human digestible format. Yeah, it's But that that that tool, I mean, I remember when we demoed that tool for an agency in Namibia, we literally got applause. People were like the relief [snorts] was palpable. They were just like, "We need this." Yeah, we I mean, cuz you know what? You make me you you make me think with this. It's wisdom is what's risk is invaluable, but it's so interesting cuz we're living in the age of encoded wisdom and encoded philosophy because people don't have the time to get all of that stuff in their head. So, what you've done is that you've distilled wisdom not only in a course, but in a tool. And I just realized you also did that with the Jules Goddard principles. Like we the books, certainly know the promaxims, but if you like we provided a tool that you can just access Jules' intelligence and capability. Like, hit it in the browser. And that kind of harnessed wisdom is another layer to this that I think is immensely valuable. Like, if you don't have time to earn the wisdom yourself, access the wisdom. And I suppose companies that prove wiser over time will earn our trust and our attention and our money. >> 100%. Yeah, I mean, if anyone wants to try that 21 maxims tool, it's quite fun. It's just 21maxims.42courses.com. Um so, Jules Goddard was Yeah, really quick overview. Jules Goddard is the the oldest tenured professor at the London Business School. He also teaches leaders at INSEAD. Um yeah, so he's he's basically he's like a genius. He used to work with David Ogilvy way back in the in the days. Got a philosophy degree as well. And he's a he's a doctor professor. Um he's one of the most incredible, smartest thinkers I've I've ever known. And people like Rory Sutherland devour his content. >> Oh, see, like like I think isn't it? You want to find the people like the people that you love that are really famous. What are they reading? This is what he reads. Yes. >> Yeah, Rory said to me once he reads he's got a book Jules has got a book called Common Sense on Common Nonsense or or something like that. Anyway, he he Rory was saying he reads it every year without fail. Um it and it's quite The thing is it's not super, super accessible. It kind of is, but it's it's it it's he's brilliant. And when you listen to him in in person, it's great. But in his books, they can come across as being a little bit academic. So, what we try and do is is and I think what Rory is really great at doing and a lot of people who are like Rory is they it's not dumbing it down, but they just put it across in a way that's really approachable and and enjoyable enjoyable. So, yeah, have have a look at it. The 21 maxims are 21 >> Enjoyable. I like that. >> Enjoy really enjoyable. They're Yeah, 21 ways that if you're stuck on a problem, you can try these these different maxims to to help solve them, and this is specifically for leaders. I mean, he again, like he people pay him hundreds of thousands of pounds and that this is like the leaders of Deloitte and >> I did Can I Can I share how I used one of these one of these little maxims to great effect recently? So, I've been stuck. I'm working with a large political party and um they they're incredibly busy and they move so quickly and it's a very complex organization with like so many moving parts and one of the principles you guys have called it the smoker's advantage or something like that where it's kind of like What is it? It's kind of like it's um chats rather than meetings. And so, I realized this was why I was stuck. Things were taking forever because it was like days and weeks between meetings and you got to hustle to get people there and they aren't actually in a open state of mind. So, I just plonk myself at the office. I just found a desk and I wandered around and encountered people and what's amazing is that I got interactions and engagements with people throughout the organization from like the boss to the intern and and everything in between. The amount that I've gotten done just with these little interactions, the connections that I've got is incomparable to what I would have gotten if I'd done it the formal meetings way and it's it's a game changer. It's one out of many, but just >> Yeah, I've got it next to me. It says yeah, "The Smoker's Secret. Hold conversations, not meetings." It says here, "The most productive thinking in most companies happens in the corridor, the kitchen, or historically the smoking area. Meetings formalize the structure of conversations while removing most of the useful properties. >> And they made it unnecessarily long. It could be like 3 minutes or 2 minutes and you can get tons of value and insights. >> Right. And I think also psychologically Yeah, totally. And psychologically when you go into a meeting, you know, you you your brain is in a in a very set way of thinking. Um which which makes it much harder to know where to solve a problem. Uh so having conversations not meetings is is is an incredible thing. And I mean, who really likes meetings? Not I mean, I don't know anyone. >> No one. I like meeting you, man. But this has been great. This is this has been a this has been a conversation not a meeting. So >> I agree. I agree. Um yeah, I mean, what would your I mean, I I think it's it's sort of uh be a nice this is a nice point to kind of probably tie a bow and wrap it up. Um what would your your summary parting advice be, sir Dave? >> Um Yeah, I think I think that it's this old framework that I've used for years for myself, which um you have to be quite disciplined to use it, but it's I've always said I call it truths, trends, and tech. And it's kind of like most people make the mistake of thinking that the tech that the technology is going to give them an advantage. But actually, you've got to start with the truths for you or your organization, whatever it is. Like, what are the things that I really want to be great at that offer timeless value? Like so for example, it could be like I want to I like for you guys, like because everyone knows 42 courses, so I'm not going to talk about me, but it's like you want to be the best at offering like trial and behavioral science oriented learning experiences. Then you go, what are the trends around that? So the truth. Like no matter what, 10 years ago, today, in 10 years time, like this is who we are. Our identity is based on this. Um start there, and then you go what are the trends in offering learning that are relevant to us. And you might go, well, AI adaptation, like learning personalization, tools much as scripts, maybe mobile video short form, whatever. Like what are the things that like meaningfully for us are like things that we'd like to move towards, like curated trustworthy perspectives, whatever. Then you go use the freaking tool. But if you haven't done the thinking work first, and if you haven't grounded in the timeless, you're going to end up just spreading yourself so thinly in technology, you're going to get the brain fry. You're not going to get any advantage. So, it really is the discipline of going slow to go fast. Like what And what I would to put a name on it, I would say develop authentic intelligence. Engage with your authentic authentic intelligence before you engage with artificial intelligence. And together, you can then create something meaningful. >> Incredible. I love those wise parting words. You need to write a book. >> [laughter] >> I I got to Yeah, I'll write one soon. Uh after please let me write a a review or a chapter with you. Um thank you so so much for taking the time, and I hope everyone listening got something nice out of that. If if there's anything else that you want us to to to to talk about or think about, please do just email us and let us know. Be a pleasure, and look forward to chatting you you all again soon. And yeah, so Dave, thank you so much for taking time out. I know uh you're incredibly busy, but I'm very glad that we have the time for these casual conversations, not meetings. >> It's enjoyable, my friend. >> [laughter] >> And maybe try that as well as a little practical tip if you're listening just you're working in an office or something don't try to solve the problem don't have a meeting just try walking around a little bit chat to some have a conversation about it and have a conversation see where you come from. But yeah lots of love have a have a marvelous rest of your day wherever you are in the world and and thank you so much again. Cheerio. Thanks. >> We hope you enjoyed listening to this 42 courses podcast. If you did please like and share any comments are also very very welcome. And of course if you want to learn more about us visit our website at 42courses.com. Thanks again.