DAV Caregivers Support Seminar

Well, I'd like to thank everybody for being here today with us and joining us for our DAV caregiver support panel. Really excited about the opportunity to share information and get a firsthand glimpse of the caregiving journey in objective view through the lens of a caregiver that's with us here today. And I'll be making those introductions soon. And I want to encourage you to be participatory when we're done. We'll have a Q&A at the end. So, um, hopefully we open you up to some things that, uh, may apply to you that may be part of your caregiving journey or take some things from this that allow you to go out and help a neighbor who may be a caregiver. Um, so again, thank you for being here. As many of you know, caregivers are often the invisible force behind a veteran's success, recovery, independence, and quality of life. While we rightfully recognize the sacrifices of those who served, we must also recognize the family members, spouses, parents, friends, children who continue serving along serving long after the uniform is removed. Caregiving can be incredibly rewarding, but it can also bring challenges such as emotional strain, physical exhaustion, social isolation, and financial stress. No single entity can solve all of those challenges alone. Today, we're fortunate to have a panel that represents several critical parts of the support network that veteran caregivers need. We are joined by Lindseay Neee over here to my left, who's a CEO of TCARE, an organization focused on identifying caregivers stress and burnout before a crisis occurs through evidence-based caregiver support and assessment tools. TAR's mission is centered on helping caregivers receive the right support at the right time and reducing caregiver burnout. We're also joined by Angel Torres, senior vice president for veteran outreach at Veteran Debt Assistance. VDA is an organization dedicated to helping veterans and their families improve financial wellness through education, resources, and support designed specifically for veterans. Veteran Debt Assistance has partnered with organizations such as DEV and focuses on helping veterans achieve financial stability and independence. And perhaps most importantly, we are joined here by Donna Joiner, a long-erving caregiver to DAV member Dennis Joiner and triple ampute and someone who has lived the realities of caregiving every day and whose experiences remind us why these conversations matter. So, thank you. And for all of you, thank you for taking the time to join us here today. And I really look forward to the interactive and engaging conversation. So with that, I'd like to start with you, Donna. If you could tell us about your caregaming journey, when did it begin and how has it evolved over the years? >> Um, my husband and I turn this. >> Okay. Um, well, my husband and I um met in 1979. We were married in 1981. And what I need to explain is that my husband was wounded in 1969. And so he was a disabled veteran for 11 years prior to me meeting him. um and when we were married. So I don't know my husband any other way than being disabled. So that in itself is something but um how it has evolved my my life and his life and our children. Um, sometimes it's really hard, sometimes it's a lot of fun, sometimes it's overbearing, and but you're always there. You're always wanting to help the veteran. But that is basically how our life evolves. But over the years, when we Of course, when we were younger, we got to do a lot more things. We were able to do more. But as we age, it gets harder and your life slows down and it's just part of life. But um the caregiver takes on more and more and more That's how that goes. >> Thank you, Donna. Lindsay, TCARE works with caregivers across the country. So, what would you say are some of the most common challenges that you see facing that veteran caregivers face today? >> Yeah. And I was actually talking to my team about it earlier because the team and Jan, I'm going to call you out. Sitting over here is one of our caregiver specialists. So, she engages with caregivers all day, every single day. Um, and we were talking about some of the common challenges that we see caregivers needing support with. And first and foremost, it's financial financial stressors, navigating health care systems, um, access to different benefits, um, and financial conversations are hard to have. And so, I think we see that come up often. we try to get access to different benefits that are out there. Um, but it's tough. And then on the flip side of that, I think one of the common challenges is just having a community of peers that you can talk to and connect to and share the experience with and lean on and complain about what's happening that you're not going to say some of that to your loved one necessarily, but you need to have an outlet. So I think those are kind of the two big things that we see so commonly come up with caregivers. >> And Donna, looking back, what has been the biggest challenge that you faced that um maybe you did not anticipate at the beginning of your journey? >> Um okay. At the beginning of our journey, both of us worked and um you know, we have children, so that all came into play. Um, but as we get older, we take on more responsibility and that gets a little harder. But, um, my husband was hurt with his rotator cuff. He had to have surgery in 2005. So, um, one of the things I had to do as his caregiver was to give up my job. give up my pension, uh, increase social security benefits, that sort of thing. So, it does impact your family tremendously. So, um, that's about it. >> Thank you. And you bring up a great point about the the economic impact that that is suffered by caregivers. Some give up full-time employment, corporate careers, become a full-time caregiver, some are reduced to part-time work. you're putting less in your retirement account. You have less resources coming in or available to you on account of that caregiving journey. And you know, we u the billions of dollars saved by our caregivers for the healthcare industry as a whole is amazing. And health care cost and home care costs are far outpacing wage growth. So, it's a it's a crisis. It's an issue and we're not on a sustainable track. So, really appreciate you bringing up that point with that, Angel. Uh when we discuss caregiver burden, financial strain often doesn't get enough attention. How significant is the impact of financial stress on on veteran families? >> Can you repeat the I had to echo. Can you repeat the first part? >> When we when we talk about caregiver burden, financial strain doesn't often get mentioned in that conversation. And how significant is the impact of that financial stress on the veteran families and the care? >> Oh, it's barely measurable. I mean, [sighs] we were talking earlier about this and when you think about managing veteran debt or veteran most of veterans become veterans and they take their debt from active duty into the uh their vet, you know, the transition when they become veterans. So they have that looming and they have that on their head. Now imagine well I don't have you guys don't have to imagine because you got you guys are many are caregivers and understand are no caregivers and care about caregivers but think about one day you're you're struggling with your own finances and then tomorrow you become a caregiver. So you don't have the skills now but you're expected to now be able to balance the financial burden of managing your finances and someone else's while simultaneously taking care of all the other logistics that are involved with this person. I can't imagine of a bigger pressure cooker and the when the bill starts stacking up, avoidance kicks in. What happens next? You start thinking about, you know, self-doubt, feeling bad. I'll ignore it. It piles up. It piles up. Doesn't go away. So, who you going to go to? Who you going to talk to? not Ghostbusters, but who are you going to talk to? Seriously. I mean, and I think that to to Lindsay's point is it's really important and the burden is very high to have those resources to be able to have someone to talk to to vent and also get good credible legitimate information from some a trusted source, someone that tr that works collaboratively with other public private organizations and not forprofits like DAV. Thank you, Angel. Uh, while we talk about burdens, Lindsay, I want to go back to you. Many caregivers don't ask for help until they're already overwhelmed. Why is early assessment intervention so important for caregivers? And if you could, I think they're having a little trouble hearing us in the back. If you could speak up and maybe hold it a little closer. >> Okay. >> Thank you. >> Is that better hear us? Okay, Angel can hear me. Um, so I think it's a really good question, Ron, and it's important to have the conversation because what happens, especially with veteran caregivers, is you're extremely resilient. Um, you take on a lot. You're you're taking on initiative. You don't ask for help very often. Um, and so many times a lot of the different stressors that you're taking on, you don't even acknowledge or recognize what you're doing. And so having the conversation and helping to give it space for you to say, "Wow, I am doing a lot." And Donna, I'm so inspired by your story because you're so gracious about it, but I'm also very grateful that you're here sharing because it's normal. You're this is your life and it always has been with Denny, but you've taken on a lot and there are a lot of sacrifices that go with that. So the earlier that we can have those conversations and help you as a caregiver recognize all that you're managing and recognize that there's support systems out there to help you and to alleviate some of those more proactively. You're going to be much better off. The person you're caring is going to be much better off. And we can have that continual conversation so that thing when things do get hard, you know where to turn. So, I think starting those conversations early is really beneficial. >> Great. Thank you, Donna. Many caregivers struggle to care for themselves while caring for others. What have you learned in that process about maintaining your own well-being? >> Um, a lot of the caregivers don't take care of themselves. They're always looking to take care of your veteran. you forget about yourself. And that's something you really need to do because um what I found out is the older you get, hearts wear out, your knees wear out, your arms are tired, you can't lift like you used to. If your veteran needs assistance, say getting out of bed and sitting up, you're not as strong as you used to be. So, you really need to take care of yourself. Um, people, you know, I have my family around me and they support me. Um, but you just need to take good care of yourself, too. You can't forget about yourself because if you don't, you are no good to your veteran because you can't take care of them and so you both suffer for that. So please take care of yourselves as a voice of experience. Thank you Lindsay on when we talk about burnout and you know reaching that point and it kind of goes hand inand with the you know being able to care for yourself. The one thing caregivers don't have is time is what we run into quite a bit and what are some of the ways to that that you would advise someone or tell someone to help recognize those warning signs in advance of hitting that point of crisis or burnout? Yeah, I think Donna hit on it really well. Um, and it looks different for everyone. Caregiving is an extremely personal experience. So, everyone's situation is very, very different. Um, but when we look at burnout risk, it spans across physical, financial, social, mental. Um, and so we really need to see what area of life is getting that stressor. You know, kind of the example of a balloon. When you squeeze on one side, the other side gets the the air moved to it. And so, um, I think it's taking the time to recognize the different responsibilities that someone's managing, um, and having the conversations, just having an outlet to share because sometimes it requires outside perspective to realize that maybe you're not prioritizing yourself anymore. And something we kind of talked about uh in preparation for this was what are some of those signs because burnout the term is really hard to define. Um and people normally aren't walking around you know like h I'm burning out guys like I need some help. So, there's ways that we try to educate and work with communities to help people notice signs of burnout. Um, which could be disassociation. It could be lack of interest in things that you might have really been passionate about before. Um, it might be avoidance. Uh, it could be financial stressors. I mean, Angel, I know you're going to talk a little bit more about this as well, but making bad financial decisions because you're so overwhelmed with everything that you've just kind of lost common sense in certain areas. Um, so I think just things like that, being aware of it, and helping to support each other, be that friend that somebody can lean on, um, and just to open the the door for the conversation. >> Thank you. and Angel, while we talk about the well-being of the caregiver, how should we think about financial wellness as part of the overall health and caregiver well-being? As I'm going to throw it back to Lindsay for a second. Yes. Um, when you think about what we have and what we don't have, what we know and what we don't know, financial readiness and financial tools is right at the top of the list. And no one is stepping up and giving people the tools and the educational format in a language that resonates with the military community. That's kind of what we do. Well, that's exactly what we do. We take the, you know, the best in financial uh learning and and and we tailor it to the caregiver, to the military veteran, to the military spouse because your experience, the debt you carry on with PCS movement, all those kind of things and other expenses, that's very unique. And I think that part of the solution is if so, and we're talking earlier again what you mentioned is identifying that when someone becomes a caregiver that the partners, the referral agencies are saying, "Hey, you know what? Welcome to the community and you probably need to go through this and you probably need to take this class. You probably need to be aware for this. Here are your people. These are the people you can trust." And by doing that, we can get ahead and give people the tools. So they don't get, you know, into one paycheck from being homeless. They don't get into the super burnout because they can't talk to their family or talk to anybody about the money they need. Getting ahead of this and building controls and building pro uh uh educational uh resources for them is is so important. >> And I'm going to stay with you. Thank you for that. So when we when we talk about this, it's not an easy topic, right? And um and it's not about the shame, but people feel shameful when they end up in these positions. We with many families feeling embarrassed uh or overwhelmed when discussing their finances. How can caregivers begin addressing those financial challenges uh before they become overwhelmed before they get to that point? >> Yeah. The most important thing here is identifying that financial and and indebtedness and unwellness I guess um it's in two it's in two parts. There's the math behind it. The numbers income doesn't match money going out and then there's an emotional toll. the shame which leads to isolation which leads you know includes um I've had a entire military career I was a military spouse in a lot of cases I'm I got this I got this I got this and all of a sudden the numbers don't match and what do people do they internalize what does that mean it means I'm a bad person I'm not good I'm not worthy of all these other things that are just not true I call it the uh the head trash the things we tell ourselves that just aren't true. So part of finding a solution is really normalizing that debt is a real thing. This is something we all face. Just some people handle it better than others. Why? Because they've learned more either because they messed up and made a lot of mistakes and they learned from their mistakes or no one ever taught them. So I can't over stress um how important that is. Thank you, Donna. What What kind of support has made the biggest difference for you throughout your journey? >> The biggest support is my family, um my neighbors if I need something, and um having some downtime for me is a good thing. And so I go to a group that I belong to in my church. It's a sewing group and we um make quilts and such for um kids that are sick that are in the cancer wards and stuff like that. And um so that's my biggest support and my husband is my biggest support. >> Thank you. And and that's such an important thing as respit on the caregiving journey that we take the time to care for ourselves. If we hit that point of crisis or burnout, what good are we to the care recipient? We have to make sure that we do our best to take care of ourselves, practice that self-care, and be committed to it. And the other thing I heard from what you just said is you are at church making me a quilt. Is that correct? Or >> Thank you. See, we all benefit from respit. >> Ron, one thing we talked about earlier that I that Donna really kind of lit my lit my head on fire about is often the narrative is around it's so hard. It's so hard. It's hard. Yes, it's hard. But Donna, you were saying earlier, you're like, and there is joy in being a caregiver. There is value. There's happiness that that accompanies that. And it really made me go, "Wow, I love this man. I love this this job. I love what I do. It fulfills my my identity. And I it really struck me. >> That's great. And let me just drive home this point. Many of you have heard me tell this story previously. And I I like to use it to help set the tone for the importance of our work. And I was at a convening in DC a few two years ago, I believe it was, and they had three panelists presenting. And they asked them what they would do with an hour of respit. The first two panelists gave the typical answer. go to a Mexican restaurant, sit on the patio, have a margarita, take deep breaths for an hour, and not worry about anything. The third panelist, they came to her, "What would you do with an hour of respit?" Her response was this, quote unquote, "I would go and get a colonoscopy." I I did the same thing, but within a second, it made me realize the importance of we talk about taking care of yourself, the fact that caregivers don't have time. when you get a free hour, that's what you would go do. I'm going to go have a beer. I'm going to go prop my feet up and relax. That's what she was going to go do. She did not have time to herself to practice that self-care, dealing with a spouse had uh some children that had some issues that they had to work through and she's caught in between on both sides of that. So let that uh resonate with you when we talk about caregivers and the importance of our work and the little things that you can do that we we often overlook or overthink that you can make a huge difference in a caregivers's life by maybe doing something to allow them that 30 minutes that one hour. So I just wanted to point that out. Um Lindsay TKare combines technology with human support. So, how do you balance innovation with the need for personal connection and caregiving? >> So, this is something I'm very passionate about because everything that we do is around enhancing human connection. Um, and I'm very excited by the innovation that's happening and the rapid advancement of technology, but we have to be very, very careful and how we integrate technology and digital tools into what we do. Caregiving is one of the most human experiences that we are all going to go through in some capacity. Either being a caregiver, needing caregiving. Um, and many times we experience it multiple different ways. We're caring for lots of a lots of people during our lives. Um, and I think what we're very thoughtful about when it comes to innovation and technology is making sure that we're using it to reach caregivers. how they want to be reached and communicated with, helping to enhance that personalized experience, closing gaps to access and care and resources, but always driving back to the human connection. We can absolutely never lose that. And um I know Ron, you're very passionate about that as well, but we have to be careful in how we use technology. Yeah, thank you for that. >> One thing she was we were saying over lunch was developing a solution. It can't be a one-sizefits-all. Caregiver experiences are just so different. >> Yeah. And I'm glad you mentioned that, Angel, because caregiving, there's so many levels or approaches. It's not one sizefits-all. You could be caring for a a quadriplegic, a paraplegic, TBI, ampute, PTSD. There there's so many approaches. Uh Alzheimer's, it's just so many different things, but the common bond you have is the the journey itself, regardless of what level you're at. And establishing those I think we mentioned this earlier, the peer connection is so important and realizing that you're not alone. And I encourage all of you to to build upon that uh within your communities, your networks, reach out to others that you know that may be on that caregiving journey. So uh Angel, let's go back to you. What are what are some practical resources or first steps that caregivers can take today if they're struggling financially? Ask for help. Put aside the ego. Put aside the what what you think is going on inside. Sit down with your bills. Look at them. Write them down. If the math doesn't work, you need to call somebody. You need to call us. You call go to veterandebass assistance.org. You can get a hold of us. We have videos. We have YouTube. It walks you through the whole thing how to get yourself out of debt. But the most important thing I can say is and and it echoes what you were saying about pure connections. I think being open and honest and vulnerable with other people about what's going on and having a courage to not only sit down with your bills and and admit this isn't the numbers problem. This is not a me being a bad person problem. This is a numbers problem. And once you're able to do that and objectify the problem, then you're able to develop a solution. You cannot develop a solution from a defensive posture. I can't stress that enough. You're not thinking straight. You're not thinking clearly. You're you're it's just a mess, right? [laughter] It doesn't translate over to Mike, but you guys get it. Um, taking control, asking for help, look into partners like DAB and and other organizations that are looking to help you, and make sure the partners that are going to help you are vetted are vetted appropriately. Ask for help. Thank you, Donna. If someone became a caregiver tomorrow, what is a one piece of advice you would give them? >> One specific advice, [laughter] uh, patience. Um, work with your veteran. You know them better than anybody else. Um, it it's a journey for for you both. They're dealing with a whole lot. They used to be fine physically, mentally, whatever, but they're not yet. So, you just work together. Uh, that's the main thing that um I could stress is you work together. um my husband and I, you know, I always say he's he's a triple amputee. I'm sure some of you know him, but um I basically say I'm his arms and legs. And what he can't do, I do. And um one of the things is it's a little story is when we were painting, I painted high and he painted low. Okay. So, just work with your veteran and if you have some real issues then um get on the phone, call the DAV, call T care for financial account angel, do what you need to do. But in reality, Ron, I have your number on speed. Well, >> well, for that, Don, I'm gonna put you on the spot real quick. And >> and there's something we don't talk a lot about, and it's something that needs [snorts] to be a part of our discussion. And it's the children that are caught up in the caregiving journey. We will do more. We have to do more. We cannot and will not leave them out of the equation. You know, we we voluntarily many of us in this room voluntarily served. Some were drafted. Children on the caregiving journey didn't sign up for that. But it becomes their reality. They deal with the separation. uh when you know when a parent deploys they deal with the aftermath and the traumas when they come home. When children are receiving mental health counseling, cutting themselves, attempted suicides, it's not okay. We have to and will do more. Um it's very serious. There's a lot of the VA uh not to beat them up, but they don't work with children until they attain the age of 18. So we need to be very purposeful and intentional within our local communities and do what we can not just for the the families or the caregiver but the children that serve on that journey as caregivers as well. And with that Donna I know we talked about a story with your daughter u when Denny uh when she was born and coming up in the younger years of school. Do you mind just briefly sharing a little bit about what that was like? >> No problem. Um, we have three kids together. We have two older sons and then my my daughter. Um, but what he's talking about is when she was um in kindergarten, I got a call from school and the teacher said to me, um, the kids are making fun of Kristen because of her daddy having no legs. And she said, "We need to really do something about this because it's very, very hard." And first off, it's heartbreaking that, you know, your daughter is going through this because he served honorably. He was wounded and now people are making fun of them. And so anyway, I said, "Oh, sure." I said, "We'll handle this." I said, "I'll get my husband to come in and talk to the kids." And so that's exactly what we did. And by the end of the time that my husband was talking to them, he they surrounded him. They understood probably way better than their parents that he's normal in his own way. And that's what you have to stress with a lot of people. But just remember that our kids take on as much as we do. And um sometimes it's very heartbreaking for yourself, but it is for them too. And they have a lot to deal with. My oldest son, he said to me when uh Kristen went to school, he said, "Make sure that you take good care of her because kids are mean." And he had never said anything before that. But so that's my story. Stick to it, please. It's um Thank you. You know, we talk about the peer connection for the caregivers, having that like kind, those peer connections. The same exists for the children. I mean, what what's our veteran population? 1% that served. So, when these kids go to school, the I get tired of hearing about the schools writing truency letters and all these things. And these kids aren't truent. Some of them are brilliant. We have to take a step back, realize what they're dealing with at home, and realize these are true struggles. These kids are brilliant. They're resilient, just pure grit in their day-to-day grind is being part of that caregiver or on that caregiving journey. But we cannot allow their grit and determination to allow us to overlook their actual needs. I mean, we have to do more. I'll leave it at that. So, I I welcome all of you to join in on on that piece uh of support. Um I'm open. I'm all ears. I'll take suggestions. I'll work with you. Let's get out there and do this, please. So, again, thank you. Lindsay, we've ignored you for a little bit, so let's go back to you. The What gives you the most optimism about the future of caregiver support in America? Honestly, conversations like this, the focus and commitment that organizations like DAV have to bring recognition and acknowledgement to the critical role that caregivers play um and the needs that are very very present um and how challenging it is to access resources and services for caregivers. So, I'm extremely optimistic and excited because I think the the topic of caregiving and the caregivers's role is being talked about at the local level, the state level, the federal level. Um, it's a global challenge and so I'm excited for us to continue to drive that forward. We do a lot of advocacy work in the caregiver space. Um there is a lot of work to do still, but I'm hopeful. Um and just so grateful for all of you for even sitting in here and and being willing to have the conversation with us because that alone can be challenging. >> Thank you, Lindsay. And for all of our panelists here, we're going to just do some Anybody can pick these up. We'll ask a couple more questions. What can healthcare organizations, nonprofits, employers, and community groups do better together to support caregivers? >> You want me to go? Okay. Uh, honestly, working together, there is not one single solution that's going to solve all the challenges that come with caregiving. We have to collaborate. We have to come together. We have to make access to services better. Um, we have to make it easier to get paid for being a caregiver. Um, there's progress that's happening there, but it's still incredibly challenging to get access to some of the money that's out there. And that goes back to the challenge that we hear so commonly about the financial stressors that come with being a caregiver. Um, so it really takes a collaboration between private and public. It takes working at the community level. It takes organizations that are boots on the ground getting into the famil family's homes and working with caregivers. Um, so it's really collaborative. We have to have that collaborative partnership spirit. >> I think I No, I don't think I know I agree with everything she said because she actually stole it from me. She asked me beforehand and I said, "Say this." And that's why it sounds so good. [laughter] No, I I I agree that the having convening people like DAV convening these events to raise awareness has already moved the bar so far, but we still have so far to go. I think that recently, anybody know what HR 6047 that bill that was going coming out was was about? got they were looking at it was uh addressing caregivers. It was a uh DIC uh and and the different amounts that they were going to use to give the caregivers and to um there was some uh legislation around that. Some people thought it wasn't enough money. Some people thought it was not being paid for the right way. I won't get into details, but what I will tell you is long as we continue to advocate and use our legislative arm and use arms like like the DAV and all the different veteran service organizations to push a caregiver agenda that supports and addresses real solutions for every single caregiver that's out there. That's how you make the change. That's how we make things better. >> We're getting a little tight on time. I want to make sure we leave some time for for some Q&A. Um I don't know if it's fair to ask a question and take it on myself, but do you think caregivers receive the recognition they deserve? If not, how can we change that? No. The answer is no. It's it's plain and simple. We thank a veteran. Let's thank those that allow them to remain in their homes uh to the extent possible and and that care for them day in and day out. It only takes a couple seconds to thank a caregiver. But with that said, caregivers have to allow themselves to be recognized. And that's a request for each of you that may be caregivers. Um, real quick for each panelist, I want to have each of you answer this independently uh in about 30 seconds. What is the one message you would like every caregiver in this room to remember when they leave here? When you leave here, remember just to take care of yourself. Like I said before, if you don't take care of yourself, you cannot help your veteran. Yeah. I would say acknowledge and give yourself credit for what you're doing and be willing to be recognized, but also give yourself grace. Um, and just from me personally, thank you for all you do as caregivers because it's a really important role. >> You are not alone. That's it. Thank you all for the participation here in the the open and candid honest conversation. Uh, what do you think? [applause] And I I think Lindsay mentioned it. Having these conversations, open, be honest. These are real issues. Crisis, burnout, it's real. These people have big jobs. You know, those that are not on a caregiving journey, or maybe you have been before, or if you've never been on one, when we go home after a day of work, we change shoes, we kick our feet up, have a beer. When a caregiver comes home for one that's working full-time, they change uniforms, start the next job. So, look at it that way. You know, we we've heard about the realities of caregiving and the importance of supporting caregivers before burnout occurs in the critical role that financial health plays in the family's well-being. So, uh take all these things, continue the conversation as has been said and I continue to repeat that. Uh I do want to thank our panelists here today for uh again taking the time to be with us. [applause] Donna, I love you. I appreciate what you do for Denny. I've known Denny a lot of years. Love that guy, but how you put up with him is beyond me. It's, uh, it's it's got to be. So, uh, with that, before we open up for Q&A, how many caregivers do we have in the room? Thank you. Appreciate what you do. How many became a caregiver without even knowing or just in a moment's notice? It's that easy to happen. We never know. And and don't discount what you're doing for those that aren't sure if you're a caregiver. You could be doing medication management. You could be doing uh doctor's office visits, uh transportation, uh homemaking. There there's so many different things that apply to this subject. So, um, again, you want to do something simple, caregivers don't have any time, make a meal for them and take it over to their house. You just save them an hour or two by that simple gesture because they don't have time to do it. Not everybody's food and secure. They don't always have the time to prepare a nutritious meal. So, it's a way that chapters and or individually you can get involved. So, uh again, I want you to remain open to those things and and thank you uh caregivers and for your participation