Danny Ryan on: leading crypto’s biggest upgrade, paving his own path, and bringing $120T to Ethereum

Hey, Danny. >> Hi. What's up? >> And this might be actually what happened. You're the only one that responds to their emails. >> Wasn't into gaming cuz he was talking to girls. How'd you do the merch? How does that happen? >> Who can make it go offline or who could take it from you? >> Yeah. >> If there's The answer should be no one. >> I was like, "Oh, this is fun. I changed my major." >> You have a great head of hair, by the way. Like I I would assume you'd be bald. Can you play to continue the game? >> That's a good question. >> Hey, Danny. >> Hey. What's up? >> Thanks for coming. >> Thanks for having me. >> How's it going? >> Great. >> Um, when was the last time you played Jenga? >> You play with the kids? >> The kids are not quite there. Who knows what their age is? Um, no, but uh some friends of ours have a bunch of games and you've played a couple times recently. >> Okay, cool. Yeah, I think like I've played 36 of these. I've gone slightly better than I was before. Um I've gone to the >> I feel like but it's a skill level cap at a certain skill level. It's just like randomness on who's going to >> for sure. You just got to take what the Jenga gives you. Um how how's Yeah, you just go you >> when do you start like do you ask questions in relation to the numbers? >> Uh when you pick them? Yeah. Not >> okay. >> Slightly. and rules like can I prod or once I touch it's >> you can do whatever. Yeah, very open. Um nice. >> Yeah, you got the I always use that one at the end and so it was surprise one. I'm I'm already I'm at a disadvantage here. Um do you remember the first time you discovered the internet? Uh, I got a book from a from a book fair >> or maybe like a book order thing at school in second grade about the internet >> and it was about the internet but really it was about chat rooms. >> So I read this book and I was like okay great and now I chat on the internet and you know went from there. I probably had done things on the internet before second grade, but that was definitely like this moment of read. It's just hilarious now. Like how do you learn about the internet? You get a book. Uh but that was that was second grade. >> Were we like was your family also into tech or is that different? >> We had a computer. >> Okay. >> And my my dad was like really proud of having a computer. That didn't mean we did anything other than like word processing. Yeah. Um, and we had a printer that had the the dots on the side >> and they were all connected. Are you familiar? You know what I'm talking about? >> I have no idea. >> Oh my god. Okay. So, it's like a ream of paper >> and they're folded back and forth, back and forth, and they're connected with perforation. So, they're all connected and then there's like these dots you can rip off on the side that I guess help with the feeding. But the cool thing was >> you could print long things. So, it would just make like banners. Ah, >> okay. >> So, do you remember your first banner? what we look like. >> The Halbop comet came that'll date this. I don't remember when it was, but we all got we're very excited about the comet and we would take >> uh like like a a basketball and then put like flame behind it and make a comet and like a baseball and put flame behind it and make a comet. >> So these are long banners like in A4 paper or I guess it's not A4. >> Yeah, but it's connected. >> Okay. >> Like perforated. >> Oh wow. Okay. Not per. Would you be able to hang them just like >> Yeah, you put put them long way on the wall, you know, and get a nice That's what we were doing at 97 or whatever. >> Nice. Um, is there like, you know, in your childhood, is there for foreshadowing to what you're doing now? Like, is there any distinct moments that just you're like, you look back, you're like, "Oh, yeah, that makes sense." >> Uh, I mean, I was always the one that could like fix things. >> Uhhuh. I was always the one that uh yeah if there was a problem like Danny I remember my grandparents always quoted me I think I similar era I was probably like seven or something and it was always uh I would help them with their computer and and one time I just said sometimes you just have to turn it off >> and turn it back on. >> Yeah. >> Um and they quoted me on that forever. It's ironic cuz crypto. >> Yeah, I think my node went down the other day and I was like, I don't know the [ __ ] going on. >> Reset. It works. >> Yeah. Why is that? You think it's just like is there like a tech? There's probably >> just going to get into weird states, right? Like the memory compounded in this weird way or it like wrote wrote a variable in a weird buggy way and like it was kind of fine and then it just >> Yeah, >> I just got to got to start fresh. Like when you boot something, it goes through the boot process. It sets up the memory all clear like everything's fresh. >> Yeah, >> it makes sense. >> So, you were fixing things. Does that necessarily mean like tech related or is that just everything you just like fixing things? >> Yeah, I think um like was there something that you fixed early on that really got you into it fully? >> Uh, no. I'm like not a um I don't go deep. I go deep on some stuff like sure went to deep on the merge went deep on Ethereum but like I compared to even people that I work with like >> I'm I'm much better at like oh I can figure that out quick. >> Oh I can make a good decision about that thing quick. And like that was always the case as a kid and I get fascinated with things but I then I kind of get dragged and I yeah I go I go wide. Okay. Yeah. Was there like a like an aha moment or a spark or a mentor or something early on that made you follow a certain path? >> My uncle certainly like set the stage. He um he always like just talked to me like I was a human being and not a kid. It was the first kind of relationship with an adult that way. Um and through that like I don't know learn about the world and instilled like a lot of confidence and just like being able to do things and like >> I don't know if you treat if you treat like an 8-year-old as a capable person. Turns out they are pretty capable. >> Yeah. Um, so that was that was definitely piece of the puzzle. But I mean, >> I don't know in terms of like getting into I was always kind of into computers because they're around, but I wasn't like a deep computer science expert in >> study computer science or >> I I did I went I went to school and I was like, "Oh, I'll study mechanical engineering because like making stuff's cool." >> Uhhuh. >> Um, but I had to take a computer science class. >> Yeah. >> Sophomore year. >> I'm like of college and I never programmed before. I was like, "Oh, this is fun. You make stuffer." >> Okay. And so, again, I'm not like one of those programs since the age of six. Yeah. Kind of whatever. And like that shows like I'm not like a crazy programmer. I'm not a crazy mathematician. I'm not a crazy any of this. I just >> good at kind of like seeing the the problems and stitching them together. >> Yeah. What do you do after college? >> Was that any? >> Uh, so I'm from Louisiana. >> Oh. opsac, but I'm >> from Louisiana out >> and I moved >> I moved back to Louisiana, moved to New Orleans and my goal was to um to not get a job. >> Okay. >> Yeah. Are you >> like in a way in which like you just like refused to work or you just sort of like >> no >> trying to be an entrepreneur or like >> I uh I I I mean I worked I I did freelance work but I was like I'm not getting like a job where I have hours and someone tells me what to do, right? and um and I ended up working with a bunch of small businesses in Louisiana just like helping them think through how to solve problems like automation and and that kind of stuff. Um it was quite fun. It was quite fun. It's funny. I like I was talking about this the other day, but I got one client. >> I got them to pay me a decent amount of money per hour. >> Yeah. >> What were you making? >> And I probably too much for what I was doing. $85 an hour. >> Oh [ __ ] >> I know. I think I like kind of hugged wiggle them a little bit, >> but I ran the math and I was like, if I work one hour a day, >> I'm good. >> $25. >> Uh, >> how old were you? >> I was like 22, 23. >> Yeah. >> Um, yeah, it was it was good. It was >> What were you building for them? >> That kind of went up in flames. I don't. It was some like dutyfree company that was trying to make some like duty-free theme park honestly like on the border of Mexico and like I was programming apps for them. I don't know. >> Amazing. >> Some of the more fun stuff was like literally like random small businesses that didn't realize automation existed, you know, were like manually doing reports. is like, "Yo, bro, write like 30 lines of code and never ask that again." >> Yeah. >> Do you get annoyed when people are inefficient? Like is that like a or like are not or underutilizing technology for certain things? >> I'm not I'm not Maybe so maybe. So I'm like thinking about my wife using her computer and like not knowing any hot keys. It's like you did that action like a thousand times and you just press control whatever. Um so may maybe a little bit but I'm not like an automation maxi like I don't I'm I'm not I don't optimize my life. >> Yeah. >> Um I don't get like I don't get a lot of pleasure out of it. >> Um I like to >> I like to be very thoughtful but I also like to kind of go with the flow. >> So you did the websites. you were during duty-free theme park in the border of Mexico just like wow there's so many questions there it'll take a whole episode um what do you do after do you remain jobless >> uh and like what was that >> I mean I think I might be cheating um you're good >> yeah so I did that for years and um I had a lot of fun I actually started a screen printing business in high school. >> Oh, same. >> Been going. >> Nice. >> 20 years. >> Wait, you It's still there. >> Yeah. Yeah. My My best friend partner runs it. >> Giraffic. >> Um G I R A P H I C. >> Um >> Oh, that's nice. >> No, it's great. It's >> I did that too in college. We ran this thing called Inktank. >> Yeah. Cool. I mean, we have we have like a bunch of automated presses and do we started doing it for our band anyway. >> Why? >> For a band. >> That's how we started. We started then we started doing all the shirts for our high school. anyway and my buddy runs it. It's it's sick. Um, so I was I was kind of like involved in that a little bit. I was kind of involved in some of the freelance stuff. >> And then in 2016, um, a friend of mine sent me a New York Times article >> for the DAO. Okay. The DAO had raised, I don't know, $120 million or something, largest crowdfunding in history. Um, and I had I knew of Bitcoin. I'd transacted Bitcoin. I probably lost money on Bitcoin. I hadn't really clicked. >> Yeah. >> And I read this and I start I dug into it and I was like, "Oh [ __ ] >> this is crazy." >> And then it was kind of all I could think about. >> And I actually my first mainet transaction, I remember sitting on the couch next to a friend and sending it and I said, "This is not going to end well." >> Yeah. >> And I funded the DAO >> and it didn't end well. I was I was deeply skeptic of whether we could actually as a software engineer Yeah. like can't can't write code without bugs like that you can never change. That's a maybe a failed premise but yolo. Um and that was a crash course in I don't know blockchain. All of a sudden it went from like oh I understand this blockchain thing to like wait they're trying to fork it. What does that even mean? And it was a crash course of of that. I was probably pro D fork. >> Uhhuh. Just >> because I lost money and didn't actually understand what the hell was going on. >> Yeah. Um, but just like got deeper and deeper down the rabbit hole and the first day of 2017, I said, "This is all I can think about. >> I will get rid of all my clients and I'll figure out I'll give myself a year to figure out how to make this my work." >> And and that's what I did. And on day one, I was like, "Okay, I'm going to go to the New Orleans Ethereum meetup." It's like, that's obviously something I could just do. Um, there is no New Orleans Ethereum meetup. Okay, I have to make the New Orleans Ethereum meetup and I like downloaded the white paper and printed out and like read it the yellow paper and read it. Yeah, in the technical specification over and over again and like made notes and okay, I think I understand Ethereum now and just like started contributing open source repos and things during that time period. >> Actually learned about proof of stake >> and I was like that doesn't make any sense. Um and then I kept learning, kept learning. I was like maybe there's an opportunity here actually. Okay, maybe this does make sense. maybe I could like make a staking pool or something. So, I kept like trying to learn about it. I heard Casper was coming at the time. That's what proof of stake was called. Uh so, I started reading the code. I was like, "Oh, they could do some more tests." I wrote some tests. At the end of 2017, the research team was like, "Hey, do you want a job?" >> Said, "Okay." >> Yeah. >> How'd you find your community and your people? Like, so you you're like, "Okay, this is cool. I fund the Dow. I lose my money." Most people there first of all would just be like okay [ __ ] that. Uh what kept you going there? I guess that's one and then two like how'd you find your people? You just excited? >> Um yeah I mean I also like kind of believed in it. I'm a bit of a ly >> and like a bit concerned about the trajectory of certain components of technology like such a massive centralization of like companies that is powered by surveillance capitalism and like you know my they're programming me to open my phone 10,000 times a day through like gambling research and other things. So I you know I'm like oh this technology actually might be able to change the world. It might actually it's not going to like stop the trajectory but maybe we can alter the trajectory. So I and it's like the most interesting problem. >> It's like tech and finance and mechazin design. Yeah. Money. It's it's wild. But how did I find my people? I just started showing up to stuff on the internet. Um there was like a research call every week for proof of stake. Yeah. >> And they put the public Zoom link and I would just go >> and be like Vitalic and Vlad and like some wizard. >> Yeah. >> Greg Craig Mer. um >> a wizard. >> He was a he was a wizard. >> Um >> how'd you build up the confidence to get that? cuz I I feel like there's people in the Ethereum community now when it's like these are you know major calls and things like these they're like everyone you want really big names like okay it's harder to reach them maybe at this point and they might be like oh I'm too shy to maybe talk I'm too shy >> well and I didn't talk >> okay >> for a bit >> okay >> but I would try to just make things better >> be like they're talking about some blog post they read that week and and the relevance the research or something and I'd be like the quiet guy that just found the link and dropped in the chat I So, everyone had it. >> Oh, cool. >> And like some of my initial open source contributions like I would just be reading docs and like fix typos and try to just make things better and like all of a sudden you're making things better and you have a dialogue with I don't know a member from guest >> is like you had to submit some PRs and then you show up to an event in person. They're like, "Oh, oh, you're that guy. Oh, cool. Hey, what's up?" >> And just I don't know. I mean, I haven't had to walk through the doors in a long time. >> Yeah. >> But the doors were like comically wide open and I imagine for like at least >> Ethereum is much bigger and maybe there's different like sections of it, but many of those sections of it I imagine doors are pretty wide open given like >> the nature of the work being in in open. >> Um, >> is it you or me? >> Yeah, it's me. So, you know, what was it that a guy who wasn't into gaming because he was talking to girls, uh, was in a band, started a screen printing business, um, funded a Dow hack >> by a doubt and and, uh, ended up joining this foundation by help being helpful initially, end up essentially architecting Jordan possibly one of the most insane engineering feats of all Um, how did you do the merge? How does that happen? >> So, I show up, I'm on the research team. >> Uhhuh. >> I was mainly like working on tests and just trying to make things better. And then I don't know, six months in, I'm functionally running the team. Hudson, and this might be actually what happened, but Hudson Jameson at the time we met, we became friends, and he's like, "You're the only one that responds to their emails." which was representative of like >> Vitalik's time and attention like it's very valuable. He's focused on other stuff like and >> and I realized like one I could do I was good at doing the work but I could also do the things that other people weren't doing >> right. I could be like what needs to happen >> to move this all forward. Um because you know people's heads are in the clouds and they're work like they're working on incredibly complex and difficult stuff. And so my my frame was just always like what can I do? What can I do to make this a reality? And like >> sometimes I was doing research, sometimes I was writing specifications and that increasingly that became like communicating and coordinating across like a very complex project. >> Yeah. Um >> yeah, just doing the things that need to get done. What was it like like being in that room? Um, yeah, I guess like how how did you manage the stress? Because that must have been, you know, pretty stressful. You have a gray head of hair, by the way. Like I I would assume you'd be bald. The amount of stress that I probably said. >> Um, what did I do? How did I manage it? I don't know. I mean, I have a really good work life balance. I actually chose to work remote my most of my my adult life. >> Yeah. >> Because I like to I like to be judged by my output, >> not by like how many how much I'm sitting at a computer or like whether I showed up to the office. >> Cool. >> Um and so a lot like >> I prioritize my health and my family over everything. Yeah. >> And actually in doing so I do my work better. You do? >> Yeah. >> And I also I identify I mean my I'm pretty consumed by my work like I think about it a lot >> but I also know that like for the type of work that I'm good at and the type of things that I do like it doesn't mean sitting on my computer. >> Yeah. >> Like taking a walk is just as if not more valuable for me to think through a problem than like me >> typing it out or something you know. So I very free form in how I structure my life and my work in a way that usually helps me manage the stress. >> The technical problems are never the stressful problems. It's a complex like technopolitical sphere. The people are the hard part. >> Yeah. Um, so you recently co-founded Etherealize and that is a very different world from like EF research and like upgrades, right? Um, where did your interest for that come in? Beyond that, like how do you stay curious in this industry generally? Um, and now you're you're heading you're speaking institutions. It's very different than the researchers you're emailing um, >> in the past. So, how how did that turn about? And I guess what keeps you excited about it >> and why do you think that work is important? >> Yeah, I mean, so I left. It was time time to leave. It was time to get some air. >> I had done the thing with the merge and then spent another couple years at DF and and loved the work, but at the same time like felt like I needed to get space, see what was up. Um, and I Yeah, I guess last year was a bit of a whirlwind. I got served by the SEC >> in April of 2024. That was day two of my sabat three month sbatical. So I spent all my sbatical dealing with that. Then the case was dropped. Then I went back to the EF but I was like not >> you got served individually. >> I think I was the highest person at the EF in the US. >> Okay. or like most visible person in the >> Can you can you share more about that? I I think it's something that like most people >> may not because you there there's criticism that the Yap has gotten of like moving slow and like >> all that but I I think like you experienced it firsthand. I would share more. I mean, fortunately, the like looming spectre of the SEC >> act and like what you do to defend against them having a case against you is actually to be decentralized. >> Yeah. >> To actually not, you know, gather control and to like let other people in the ecosystem lead. And and that's what the EF did during that era. And they did a really [ __ ] good job. Um, and they didn't have a case against me. They didn't have a case against the EF, but they were trying to make crypto disappear. And yeah, it was the last shepherd before the ETFs were approved to try to build a case. >> Yeah. >> Um, and they served me, handed me a stack of papers and scared the [ __ ] >> Where were you? >> I was at my house. It's Easter Sunday. Like, >> say knock in your house. >> My parents are there. A bunch of friends are there. We're literally setting the table. They knock on the door and hand me a stack of papers. It was like the most adrenaline ever vote. Um it was kind of terri It was terrifying. Terrifying. >> Um and you know like they're probably not coming after me. Then you learn like okay it's a civil organization so the worst thing I can do is you you know find you and you can lose all your money but you can't go to jail. Oh but the DOJ might be lurking. You never know. And it's like like um it's kind of kind of terrifying. This is me like being like, "Okay, maybe you need some space from crypto or the EF." And then like that happens. Then it disappears because it was all politics and they threw out the case because they were worried about losing the election because they were alienating special interest groups aka tech. >> Um then went back to the EF then left. Then Trump launched a memecoin and it's like literally like whiplash like what reality to live in. Then I consider going back to the F and we close that door. And then really the first opportunity the first like interesting the first thing period that like landed in front of me was I got intro to Vivc. >> Yeah. >> And I was like oh this like is actually during this window we might actually we might be able to get Ethereum to be adopted. >> Yeah. >> It's like this might really be the thing and Vivic has a really complimentary energy. >> Yeah. He has a complimentary background. Dude is from from Tradfi. Um, and I just said, "Okay, let's do it. Let's on board the world." Um, >> why why should Ethereum be onboarded to the Why should the Why does the world need Ethereum? >> Why does the world need Ethereum? Well, we need to onboard the world for Ethereum succeed. I think uh Tomas says we need to onboard the global economy. I think that's a definitely a piece of of the mission and how we should think about success. Um, but I think we can just build fundamentally better systems and fundamentally better markets and fundamentally more efficient systems and markets. And I spend a lot of my time looking at like terribly inefficient, archaic, fragmented uh, markets riddled with middlemen and risk and costs. Um, and when I think about rewriting those markets from first principles on Ethereum, so much of the garbage just goes away. It's just a better environment. >> Like Vivic had the aha moment in like 2020, leaving Wall Street, learning about Ethereum, and he's like, "Oh, all capital markets should be upgraded with Ethereum." >> Yeah. >> And he's right. >> He's right. And it's time. So why uh you know Ethereum is heavily focused on decentralization on credible neutral on these value properties where you might have uh competitive forces that may not as much right and there's this criticism that like oh that's not important oh like you know you could forego decentralization for efficiency you can onboard more people today it's faster cheaper whatever like what's your rebuttal against that like what what is in your case. Yeah. >> The reason for you know this to remain as like trustworthy >> and I've been thinking about this a lot and >> um if you don't have I talked about this on stage the other day. If you don't have decentralization then the infrastructure has counterparty risk. >> Banks give a [ __ ] about and financial solutions give a ton about counterparty risk. who can screw them over and Ethereum is the only answer in like the programmable blockchain space where the answer is no one >> and that that means a ton to banks and financial institutions. I think that's going to mean a ton to the real world and real use cases as we move past these banks and finance solutions as we as when you're thinking about like putting your life savings in on chain in crypto managing I don't know the deed to your house in crypto you know who can make it go offline or who could take it from you. >> Yeah. >> If there's the answer should be no one >> you know um and Ethereum is the answer to that. So uh yeah I think we have a little bit of work to do in terms of scale. >> Yeah. >> Although Purdos is launching PROS is going to set the stage for massive amounts of scale. Okay. Okay. And layer twos. Um we do have a lot of I think work to do in terms of like evolving such that these things are us not just excellent decentralized protocols but like excellent products, >> safe products, easy to use products. >> Um but as we make this transition like Ethereum actually is I think the best answer to on board the world. Ethereum actually is going to have enough scale. Um yeah. What do you wish more people were aware of >> when it comes to it doesn't even have to be a crypto thing. >> It doesn't even have to be a crypto thing, but what do you what do you wish more people were aware of in the world today? Very open-ended question. I'm saying this to because your move is next. >> Yeah. Uh >> um I wish people were a little nicer to each other >> and also realize that like this whole crazy thing of modern society >> I don't know be careful >> and treat it with care. >> What do you mean by that? Uh it's complex >> and it's in it's been in like a moderately stable equilibrium. >> I think we can continue to improve it and should but we shouldn't just throw it all away. um you know earlier in the year when I think when like the EF was about to undergo changes and you like were thrust into this limelight right like spotlight um probably like not probably shortly after the case and stuff that the the you getting served right >> around that time no that was more in the April regime of 2024 >> I see >> the conversation that I was engaged with with Vitalic that leaked and became a bit of a mess was more like November to January >> of 20 24 into 2025. >> Um, and you know it's like when I was seeing like a picture of you lifting this weight and like a bunch of people were just sharing it and it was like all the timeline like what was your reaction to that when you saw it? >> Like not that picture but just a full thing, right? Like it is I know this >> wave that came into your life. Yeah. So, I I thought about leaving crypto forever >> between the SEC and kind of the the massive swing of the pendulum. >> Yeah. >> Um then I realized there was potentially some good to be done and maybe going back to the F might be fun and very fulfilling and and could be good work to do. Um, and then I don't know, I mean, simultaneously when all that happened, like it felt good by some standard because people believed in me. That feels good, but also got quite nasty quite quick. I have a massive amount of respect for ya. were close friends and we worked closely together for a long time and like a lot of the decisions that she made I helped make and support and execute and so I'm you know it's funny to be pitted against her in a public arena foiled against her when like >> um you know I'm I was excited about potential changes with the EF but like I'm not not like deeply philosophically divergent from from IA and have massive respect for her. So it was it was kind of I didn't I like to be kind. >> Yeah. >> And I like to treat people respect especially in public forums and I just it didn't feel good to be have like a close friend. I mean she was she was very hurt you know and I it's absolutely not what I wanted. And honestly, that happening was probably the nail in the coffin for me not going back, >> which is like the opposite of what the mob intended. >> That's not a fair word to use. It's not It's kind of the the opposite of the intention, >> but yeah. Is there like a moment in your childhood that feels like foreshadowing? >> I just remembered thinking >> in like 8th grade >> I worked on this future cities project me and two other people. Um my English teacher, she it was her thing. She like everyone everyone in the class had to do it. Then she would pick one winner and then she would work with the winners and like they would go and and like went to state and then we went to nationals like this future city. I haven't thought about this in a long time. So we made this big model and like you clan a whole city and you like you read a bunch of research and make make up a you know future society. Um maybe that was a bit of foreshadow. Nice. Um, >> I guess that's what we're doing, right? We're making up the future >> essentially. I mean, I think uh, you know, you mentioned the modern world thing. It got me thinking of like something said actually like today, which was how um, crypto used to be moving and the world used to be still, but now the world is moving at a faster rate than even crypto is moving in many ways with AI. Um, do you think that's AI or is that AI and many other things? >> I think it's the culmination of >> I think it's a culmination of all those things. I'm getting I'm getting close to your merge face. Uh, cuz I I haven't seen a single sweat drip down yet. Like very impressive. I'm swearing I'm sweating right this this is tough. This is >> um Yeah. So essentially, you know, like it almost feels like it's time for Ethereum to meet the world because now all these things that the crypto people have been paranoid about and like talking about like is are happening like privacy is being invaded pretty directly. >> Um you know all these things are eroded right nothing. >> Exactly. And it's just like it feels like we have a good chance now to hopefully convert how people view what this is to actually become more of a one of the last bastions of humanity serving technology. Um I'm curious if you resonate with that. >> Sorry, I was very focused. >> Yeah. No, but now I'm not going to be able to pay attention because this isn't awesome. >> Um >> this is actually I'm I'm an optim I'm an optimist in a sense. I I Okay, actually I was thinking about this the other day. I guess >> this is what happens when you get like the merge architect to write prejango like he's get this unbreakable structure. Um >> Oh, it's going to break. >> Yeah, I mean that's going to be because of me. Um >> um I used to have like unbridled optimism for the tech, you know. I thought Ethereum was going to change the world, decentralized technology going to change the world. I'm a bit more in the it's a tool. It's a very powerful tool. It will change the world, but like we also it depends on how it's wielded and it depends on the people. >> And so I guess that's that's why I'm optimistic about the things I'm working on. That's why I'm optimistic about, you know, onboarding institutional capital into Ethereum and making these markets better and have better access and other things because I'm doing it and it's a really powerful tool to be able to leverage. Um, but like I'm not I'm not some I don't have the unbridled optimism of like if you just build a decentralized awesome tech that like the world's just going to be better. >> Yeah. the build it and you'll come thesis not like I think it's I I would agree with you 100% vision um thing is the issue with like build it and they'll come in my opinion is the cost of capital is going to zero >> uh anyone can build anything and I think explaining things taste making and deriving having genuine human value from it from the things that are made or the only way I actually have to be made of option be sustainable in the world. Um I don't know how to do this. This is so scary. You think I go on top or you think I add a support lever? >> I didn't even know you could do support levels. >> No, you can do support levers at this at this junction. It's so it's so risky. >> She's making up the rules. Yeah. Is Oh, man. Oh, wait. I just literally took this one out, though. I not at a rip. [ __ ] support level. >> [ __ ] It's been a long day. Um, [ __ ] Okay. Well, guess I just got to go for here. This might be the tallest one I've done so far. We It's a joint effort. You said you started a screen printing business with your high school friend. >> Um, what do your friends from your past think about crypto? Are they any of them are they adopting it now more than ever or like are you guys have different lives? Are you still in touch? I have I have like I don't know >> from the past like three very good friends. They all are not they're not crypto native. Mhm. >> They're incredibly wise and have done interesting things in other domains >> and are great sounding boards >> and are always curious about what I'm up to >> and I don't know if they bet on crypto >> changing world or doing big things, but they they bet on me and they believe in what I believe in. So, I don't know. But I actually I really like having I'm not like uh >> I have a I have a lot of balance in my life. >> I don't I don't only have um >> extra balance right now. >> Not surrounded entirely by crypto all the time. I like to be connected across all sorts of different things. >> Awesome. Um so you have kids. Sorry if that's the docs. Yeah. Oh, good. They're great. >> Uh because of the world, >> you let's say fast forward 20 years from now, you the things that you believe in have worked out. How does that change the lives of your kids? And what happens if like how how how much of a motivator are your kids in wanting to build this world that you're building? >> Yeah. I mean, take AI out of it and like if we succeed, I think we have like a a fairer, less top down controlled, freer world, which is great. I will say at AI and I don't [ __ ] know at all. I was I mean I spent a lot of time when you have a kid you they're about to go through the [ __ ] the gauntlet >> and they're going to go through the gauntlet potentially with like the thing in their pocket being better at art than they'll ever be, maybe being better at math than they'll ever be, maybe better writer than they'll ever be. And it's like what is what is it to grow up in that? And it hopefully at least we have like a fair and open and free society partially because we can architect good systems on top of crypto or partially because let's like carry this thing forward. >> Um but yeah, AI is a complicating factor into the to the what is it to be human? >> Yeah, changes a lot. You could try a support. You just No support levers. >> The support lever is That's a That's a fool's errand because it's going to misbalance this thing. He's done it again. Oh my god. I don't I I mean, maybe I should I don't want to breathe on it. Scared. None of them are loose like at all. >> Sure. I mean, they can't be equal pressure on every block in this thing. I mean, no. >> Lucky number 13. >> Well, it's a bat. >> Now, this is the real challenge. Um, >> what's one value you'd never compromise on? >> Honesty. >> How's it been like to like be speaking to an entirely different set of people now >> for your work? >> Really fun. And you feel like you have to adapt in different ways, but like >> uh I don't yourself. >> I kind of like talking to Danny. >> Yeah. >> Which is great. I'm not >> I don't like playing Jango with Danny. This is >> I'm not really my heart. I'm not much of a chameleon. >> Yeah. >> It's fun. I get to learn a ton. I get to leverage my expertise, >> but learn a ton. Um I get to explain things. I love explaining things. I teach a computer science class. uh a grad class at local university and I just I love explaining things and I get to do that to you know people running $80 billion funds. >> Nice. It's kind of fun. What's your go-to explainer like right now if you were to speak to a fund? >> Oh, I don't know. I mean I I don't have a go-to. I'm very dynamic. I read their own, understand what their needs are, understand what they're curious about, and figure out the right entry points and metaphors. >> I'm not I'm not um not a big planner. >> Not a big >> You just been planning your whole life >> for the moments that you're in. Especially this moment, apparently. I don't know how you're going to pull it off. This one's so stubborn. 15. easy. >> Oh, we'll find something. Four might be it. What do you look up to outside of tech and crypto? >> Wow. >> I'm not one to have heroes. Um, I also don't follow anything. I don't watch I don't I barely follow the news. I don't watch movies. I don't watch TV. >> Well, how do you spend your time? >> Uh, I hang out with my family. >> I work out and play outside. I play the piano and and I do my works. >> Where are we going? Insist on. Oh, >> I have a good question for you. So, yeah. Uh, no. >> Oh, [ __ ] Oh, Liam. >> I don't know. >> I kind of wish we would say that. That was very strategic. Say it right at the end. Now I'm nervous. Um, I feel like it has to be 15. I don't know why. That thing is stuck. >> It's so stuck, right? >> I think it's 20. I think that's 20. >> Where's 20? Oh, here. >> No. No. >> I mean, you had to really push. >> I had to like I had to get some. >> Is it 39? >> No, it can't be 39. Like the That's against the physics of Jenga. >> True. That won't work, would it? Um, >> oh no. >> Okay, but the thing is like I I might even I might come around later. You do what you have to do. You know what? It came this direction. I'm just going to keep going. This is crazy. What are you going to catch it? >> Wow, it looks really cool from here actually. Like look at art. Can take a picture of this before it falls. Sure. All right. Ready. Oh, I should not have done that. >> Yeah. What's changing of chaos? Come on. >> I don't get enough for this scene. Why am I shaking so much? The house down the side. That's cool. might be 20. >> Yeah, I was thinking it might be 20. >> Oh, it might be 20. No. >> Feel like the next time I need to get a camera, it's like down here. >> Yeah, >> you guys see it. No, it is 20. >> Wait, is this even in frame anymore? I feel like it's probably gone. >> It's still in frame. Um. Oh no. Okay. You see the sweat right now? Crazy work. I mean, there's no way that is it 11. So, one. Wow. I did 11. Thank you. Thanks for the sis. This is the EF etherealized cohort >> collaboration right here. Look at that. Oh, this is our work right now. >> Yeah, definitely. >> Yeah, I I >> feel like a joint project now. I'm just like, how long can it go? >> Yeah. >> I want to solve it. I want it to be I want there to be no possible way. >> Okay. Yeah, I'm trying to catch the drift of it, but like >> Yeah, >> honestly, it looks it looks insane. I'm going to get another >> We got to get another picture of this. >> Don't bump that table. Yeah. Can you imagine after all this? >> Okay. Crazy. >> Yeah, this is definitely the highest I've ever seen it. This I think it's I think it's cash as they say about the mate. It's lavado. It's wash. It's washed. Oh man. I I'm just impressed we got the swans. Me still asking a question. Oh no. No. You did it. You got the >> dude. There's no way. Wow. >> Watch out. Watch out. I love that we're on the same team. >> We're definitely on the same team. >> Maybe push mark this. Oh. I just add way at the bottom. April, dude. This 100% uptime right here now that you've said you could beat Jenga and he just like I'm like maybe we can do it. Um, I think there's only one move left. It's 21. >> Yeah, >> that was like the most intense moment of my year. >> I think there's only I think it's I think 21's literally the only one that could theoretically be moved. I thought there was absolutely nothing to do with There's like it's it's like >> Yeah, there's too much weight on it. >> It's fully in place. >> Yeah. >> Uh I'll That was definitely That was intense. That was a great moment in my career for sure. That was great. >> Wow. >> I hear my question. >> Yeah. >> Why'd you leave optimism? >> Oh, all right. I gotta look at the camera. Um I I was optimist like three years. Um it made me like I so my whole origin story in crypto is I was forced into it. Um because I'm from Nepal but I went to Costa Rica for high school. So and money there's capital controls like money transfer issues. Uh then in 2017 I found bitrex and I was like okay like let's see how trading works. Uh bought a bunch of ETH lost it all by buying the top of Tron was like I'm not a trader mind this whole trading thing. Um and then I did like behavioral economics in school and I don't know why I'm reciting my entire life story but um from there I got into this idea that like if you can program like if you program society you have to program incentives. Money is the biggest incentives. If you can program money you can actually like do very interesting things. Uh that took me down the Ethereum rabbit hole. Um joined Coinbase as product manager after college was doing like international homepages and stuff and I left like eight nine months in. So I want to go deeper into crypto and this is like I was foolish as a kid that literally thought I could just get a job uh really I could not um and you know because I had no experience literally and also took a chance on me and like literally gave me a platform to basically be this like energetic kid in opinion who um was able to talk to everyone and tell them what L2 was and just had to learn what L2 was in the process and just be there. Um, so I always be grateful for it. Um, I think the reason why I left was I I felt like I did everything I could have done there. And I think what I wanted to do now was like the EF is very unique in that it is it's done a lot. It's got a lot of flack for it, but it's done a lot to protect its neutrality, to protect its values. And so I still feel to this day as someone who's like trying to mature in this ecosystem and understand more and like be move with the times of where this thing is going to go because it's going to outlast anything that exists today. It's like bigger than all of it. um the EF is a great place to be. Uh I've already found this like when I go and speak to somebody, they don't think I want anything from them because the EF is not a startup, right? >> Um and I just think that was mainly it. I mean also there were just people that I wanted to get closer to. Um I wanted to dive a bit more into like the research side of things but not like protocol research mainly on app level research. Um I think being at a layer two and doing that it's it's slightly different like as energy wise. Um but yeah, this very neutral answer. I think the decision was very personal uh in that I I needed a new challenge as well. So >> what were you going to ask me? >> Um I was going to ask you how do we make sure that Ethereum does not lose like what's the most controversial take that you have to secure Ethereum's future? Um, I don't know if this is controversial, but like $120 trillion of the world's investable capital is held by institutions. We're going to have to figure out how to get that on Ethereum. If we're going to change the world, otherwise we're not playing the game. And like to play that game, I mean, I've been working on decentralized systems for a decade. It's very strange. And it's like, and I asked myself, someone asked me to speak about institutional DeFi. And I was like, I don't know if what I'm working on is DeFi. >> I'm working on like rearchitecting capital markets on top of Ethereum in ways that make them better. >> Maybe it reduces the middleman. Maybe it makes it more efficient. Maybe it makes it so there's better products. But like and so I guess it on the spectrum I'm moving towards ZFly but I don't know if I'm I don't know if that's actually what I'm doing. Like I think that's okay. I think we can make the world better with Ethereum without being purists. >> Yeah. >> But at the same time we need to make sure that Ethereum remains Ethereum. >> Yeah. Yeah. I think um we have to strengthen the core so the edges can experiment as well. Like I I think like being too rigid in it. It we we need to meet people where they're at and this is not an Ethereum special case. This for any technology whatsoever like um actually I think we can learn a lot from like early internet. So it's being on the TCP IP wars and all that. I'm like wait a minute this stuff sound like Ethernet internet. I'm like this is kind of similar because as you said like the one constant is human behavior. Like that's it. Like at the end of after after you forgo every single technical challenge and stuff like the one ultimate challenge will always be just coordinating. >> Cool. Danny, this is an honor, man. >> Oh, >> I honestly think we broke our Django record there. >> That was great. Um, >> wow. >> Yeah, that was good. We both won. >> Yeah, we both lost. >> Yeah, thanks for making it out.