Dan Bennett: The Psychology of Trust, and Nudgestock 2026

Hello and welcome to another edition of the 42 Courses podcast. Today I am very honored to chat with the marvelous Dan Bennett who I definitely haven't just spent the last 20 minutes chatting with and forgetting that we pressed record. Dan, welcome to the podcast again. [laughter] >> You were funny. I was funny. here was I mean >> I think we'll do we'll do better this time don't worry [laughter] it's um Dan Bennett for those of you who don't know is um great friend of the show Dan actually helped us create the first ever behavioral science course that we made many years ago he runs the behavioral science division for Oglev globally he's a remarkable scholar gentleman uh very handsome man living in in Soho um and uh just all around an incredible gentleman such a privilege and an honor to have you on, Dan. Thank you so much for taking the time out again. >> Thanks for having us on, Chris. Yeah, this time we're going to be so smooth. There's going to be no errors. It's going to be great. >> 100% 100%. So, the the topic for today is Nudtock. It's one of our favorite festivals in the world. I say it wasn't even one of, but it's our favorite festival in the world. We have been supporting it for many years. Um, and it's just an incredible, incredible event that started way back, if I remember rightly, 2013. And yes, good. Remembered our conversation from 20 minutes ago. And uh, we used to be down at the seaside, but now much bigger than ever before and held in London. And this year's speaker list is off the charts. So, I just wanted to hop on a call with Dan, have a talk about it. And so, yeah, here we are. Dan, yeah. what's the topic again this year and uh and who are some of the the highlights and thank you. >> No, it's interesting. I mean some people, you know, you say we used to be we're down to the seaside. Sometimes people say they missed the seaside but because one in five people travel internationally to Nudgetock now we kind of have to have it nearer near some some big airports. Um but maybe one day we go back to the seaside because it was a lot of fun. the um so this year the the kind of the question on everyone's lips is trust but it's also the thing that people seem to know least about and there's kind of no one like a psychologist to help you out with your trust issues you know we were looking around and going governments have got trust issues organizations have got trust issues consumers have trust issues we have trust issues and there's just there's just nothing like paper scientist help to dissect that and take that apart and so we've got everybody from Louis theu you know world famous docu documentary maker, you know, hits with the manosphere recently, all looking at, you know, he's a guy that's traveled the world and has got some of the world's least trusting people to kind of put their trust in him and confide in him for the benefit of many. So, like he knows a lot about how to get how to how to get that rapid trust making. And then we've got all the way to kind of ex-politicians Matt Hancock who's was at the the helm of um leading the government's UK COVID response and kind of intimately knows about kind of what that feels like to to really be in charge when when trust is questioned. So that's super interesting. Then we also have loads of different psychologists and and people that practice in the real world and lots of surprises along the way too. Yeah. So it's it's going to be by the end of the day you're going to learn a lot more about your trust issues >> and hopefully you're MCing again. >> Me and Mike Hughes will be MCing taking us through the day. Rory Rory Slo will be there the entire day and and this year we're going to be in a brand new location. So we are we've doubled in size this year. So there's going to be 750 people in in Woolage in the fireworks factory in this custombuilt arena which is uh all in the round and uh so we've called it the circle of trust arena. No one's going to be more than eight rows from the front uh looking at this kind of circular stage in the middle and yeah promises to be a lot of fun. >> Fireworks will will happen naturally um at this event. I'm sure it's it's and also I can't wait to see how how Rory does interviewing Lou through. I think that's going to be a hilarious conversation. Um I'd love to know where that goes. I I was saying I think it he almost Lou sort of almost has this naivity when you're watching his shows. It's it's it's interesting and I I I'm intrigued to know whether he does that on purpose or whether that's you know really really who he is. Um, I don't think I've ever heard him actually do a talk. So, yeah, can't wait to go and see that. And if you're listening, by the way, there is still time to buy tickets. Um, they are there are a few left. Um, and if I remember rightly, they go up in value um the end or price. They're going to go up in price and value the end of uh the end of this month. So get them in before the end of August and you'll pay less than if you if you have to pay them next next next next month and it because it's the event is the 17th of September. >> Yeah, we're Thursday the 17th September. We're in we're in Woolage and yeah the prices go up on the 1 of September like you say. So it's worth worth getting in there now. And then also if you are overseas and can't make it we are live streaming mo much of the event as well. So, if you go to nudgetock.com, you can sign up for that now and you'll get a notification about how to watch that on the day. >> Brilliant. That's you always so kind and generous with these things as well. Um, but yes, I was looking through the the list of speakers and some of them I thought were were brilliant. You and I are both sort of um now mild aviation nerds. Um, and you've got two people from that world. There's uh the the chief pilot from EasyJet. Is that that is that right? And then and then >> chief training captain. Yeah, exactly. >> Chief training captain. >> And so so he's going to tell us all about um how do you get that trust at 40,000 ft? How has a high consequence industry like aviation manage to design itself and communicate in a way where many of us will walk on, sit down, strap up and fly at 550 miles an hour around there, isn't it? and >> and um >> and put our hands our our lives in other people's hands almost without thinking sometimes. So So that's going to be amazing. That'll be in conversation with Rory as well. And and Mark's had Rory in the simulator teaching him how to land a plane. And I'm not going to give away the ending, but we're going to find out on the day if Rory Sod can land a plane into City. >> If if it got if it's got voice control, maybe uh he could do it. [laughter] It's a great conversation. That's the challenge. >> It's uh it's Did you have a go yourself by the way of on the fly? >> Go last. Yeah. And yeah, take taking off is really easy >> and landing is not really easy. So So tune in for that. >> It's the it's the delay, isn't it? Often in the controls, it's because they're quite big, the inputs, you sort of tend to overcompensate. So you make a movement and then nothing happens and then you make a bigger movement and then suddenly you're like, whoa. [laughter] Yeah, >> it's gone to >> Yeah, it's I think I think when I one of the reasons why I stopped being a pilot is probably I wouldn't be good at at gaining the trust. It's the commercial flying thing. I always wanted to sort of yeah kind of go around a little bit and get some weightlessness in the cabin. [laughter] That's probably not not ideal when uh when you're flying flying many people who have drinks on their trains. But uh no, I mean that's going to be a f fantastic talk. And the other guy of the aviation industry which I think is is is is such an interesting topic is is air miles. You've got the the Rob McDonald um I think he's the head of of AIOS or IIA which which run AIOS. Um I mean that must be nuts his his business. >> It's amazing. Yeah. So he's the chief commercial officer at IAG loyalty and he he's basically um he's responsible for growing ABOS into this kind of globally trusted loyalty supercurrency that it is really and um and and uh he's going to talk about a lot of the work that they do and some of the work we've done with him uh to really drive this kind of super engagement into this into this huge currency. I don't quote me, but I think it's something around 1% of the UK's GDP is is is in is in AIOS. So, um we may have to cut that bit out if if that turns out I remember I remember hearing something like that the other day. So, just amazing. >> I wouldn't be surprised. I mean, it's it's yeah, they're they're kind of big currencies on their own right. And I think um hopefully he'll he'll give away hopefully he can give away thousands of AIOS on on the day. That would be nice. >> And exclusively revealed, there will be an AIOS giveaway for the in in the circle. >> What I mean that that alone is worth going. God gez. Um >> of AIOS there, you know, you know, it's got to be done. >> It's amazing. Maybe next year we can uh part pay using AIOS for uh for the for the festival. That' be quite fun. >> At least be on the e store, shouldn't it? At least. >> Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Nudge stock on the AIO store. That would be brilliant. Um, the other one I thought was really interesting is you you had um a a couple of chaps from Google's research lab talking about about AI and and trust. I mean, it's such a big topic at the moment, AI and trust. It's it's do do you know sort of a little bit more about their talk? Are you allowed to give anything away? I can I can reveal a bit which is so Pablo and Max um really amazing researchers and they've really brought this kind of uh understanding that the mindset matters as much as the technology. So I think what what Google are amazing at is kind of taking these big thorny topics and really recognizing the kind of the psychology that's at play as well as kind of all all the other elements. And so for the past couple years actually they've been working with um BML within WPP and then more recently US as well to to really look at how do you define those mindsets and then how do you get people how do you shift people between them. So how do you get them from this kind of fear of messing up into this kind of like focusing focusing on maximizing advantage ultimately and and what are all the kind of the squiggly journeys that you take along the way? And so that that's what they're going to be they they've done some research and we'll be revealing some of the answers at Nutshock. >> I think the psychology behind AI is going to be fascinating moving forward as well. I was reading an article the other day. Someone was saying that they've got AI to help them, you know, create a post on LinkedIn or whatever, which I'm sure is a everyday occurrence cajillions of times by now. And on the argument was, well, we use Grammarly that corrects all my grammar. Um, and no one has a problem with that. Uh, you know, we use autocorrect tools all the time, so why wouldn't you use something that just takes it one step further? And I I actually thought, well, there's probably an argument in there. I can see I think it's hard now cuz now that there is I don't know what the answer is. There's so much trash out there. Um there's a lot of a lot of stuff that you can tell is just written by AI with no thought real behind it. It's just there. There you go. I can pull out some stuff. Um I mean personally I use it so much every day and sort of a mixture between Claude and Chat GPT and Gemini and I use it a lot for writing but I use it a lot to help me with editing. Um, and it's I would say at the moment I'm I'm not necessarily saving that much time using it. I mean, it helps me a great deal. Um, and it helps me find new stories. But I I think there's a big difference between using it that way and maybe just saying like, "Hey, make an article on insert, I don't know, ducks and how they fly or whatever it is that you want to want to talk about." Do do you have any thoughts on that? Actually, I know it's not slightly off topic, but >> No, I think I think Yeah, you go. What's the end game? Well, the end game is to get as much original thinking out of people to be shared with other people. That would be a good thing for the planet if we had more original thoughts that that mixed with other people's original thoughts. And I think the challenge with kind of thought leadership especially in marketing is it's a bit like you've seen that film the human centipede where I won't go into detail but one p one person passes along to everybody else and it gets more disgusting as it goes along. I think that's kind of thought leadership which is like some people have original fresh thoughts and then a lot there's a lot of regurgitation and recycling along the way in in disguise of original thinking and um so you kind of end up hearing some of the same things and um and so I think what's really exciting about the tools are well if it allows people to who previously was weren't that confident at writing or just didn't have the time if it allows original thinking to get out into the world I think that's Great. If it becomes a a super soaker for people's mushed up rubbish, then I think then I think then that's probably not as good. It's for people's kind of, you know, to put put lowquality content out there. That that's that's that's probably not as good. But so but I think I mean Rory said the same thing about when Zoom became really popular and and webinars became more of a thing became an option beyond just going to conferences and public speaking because he says there's plenty of people out there with something to listen to. they just don't have the confidence to be on a stage or they just don't want to go through that that that painful barrier. Um, and actually what webinars do is allows so a far broader set of people to share thinking. I think that that's that's that's for me would be yeah go back to that first principles of what what are we really trying to achieve. >> I think the the thing that's also blown my mind I don't know whether you use it as whisper flow >> and the voice to declare but they are also amazing. Yeah. >> Wow. Yeah, I mean I it's revolutionized everything the way that I work particularly when I'm when I'm trying to to write because I can just sort of almost give a stream of consciousness and then help it you reconstructed in a way that makes sense. Um I wouldn't be too surprised if you know children born today look back at keyboards and go what on earth were you doing there? like surely you must have really hurt your hands. You go. Yes, actually there were loads of people who had arthritis all the time. But I think um that that voice thing will be a much bigger thing. And it's weird cuz it's not necessarily new. I mean this has been in Star Trek films for generations. Um no pun intended. Um next generation uh but um yeah, it's it it's it's a fascinating thing. Anyway, sorry I know I've gone way off topic so I I'll try and go back to Nto. Um, yeah, Whisper Flow. I I love it. Are you allowed to use it at at Oglev? >> We Oh, don't ask me compliance questions, Chris. I don't know an answer to those. Alway [laughter] the the death of the keyboard. I mean, one thing that I think that a proliferation of chat bots and um and everything has been is we've realized that as we've used keyboards more how much we how much we hate them and how slow they are and how slow it is to get that in there. I mean, sometimes it's quite nice to type because you're thinking as you type, but then like you say with with something like Whisper Flow, you can you can have mistakes and it doesn't kind of tell you off for it. You can say, "Oh, no, strike that bit and it strikes that bit." I mean, that that is just that is just going to Yeah. will change the world. It's a new muscle for us all to get used to, isn't it? You know, there's that thing about the um we never really figure out the like you say, transcription has been around for a long time, but we never really figure out its best uses, do we? I think wasn't the first the first TV ad was a poster with a radio ad played underneath it. >> It's the it's a new format, but we don't And then eventually you figure out how to best do a TV ad, which isn't just the two things you knew how to do before. And then the first social media ad was basically someone uploading a TV ad onto there. And now we know how to do social differently. And um so I think probably VO voice dictation is a similar thing which is it's been around but we haven't haven't really figured out what it's for. And you can imagine one day as being you know Rory talks about kind of having a workshop room where it's all kind of voice enabled and that you just talk things talk ideas and and we're already mocking them up on the walls kind of handsree and so you got stimulus to react to. That is going to be that is going to be a whole new world to to be in. >> Yeah. Minority report come true. I think um I mean all the technologies are kind of there. It's just the merging of of them all coming together. I think that's I mean and also AI for you it because Whisper Flow I think it my understanding is it's it's through a lot of training that it gets so so good at that. um and and probably a certain amount of Ahai helps them with it. For you in your dayto-day now, is it is it are you finding it's it must be a great help for researchers though finding out whether something's already been done before and rather than just having to look of academic papers. >> We already realized how ridiculous that was. Do you know what I mean? >> Yeah. Realize how crazy that is that it was ever done like that. And yet it was probably four years ago that it was, you know, and um and so yeah, so so obviously it's amazing at synthesizing information, amazing at find information. Um and the hallucination thing seems to have not not been as prevalent. That's interesting. Um isn't it great how AI re uh renamed lying as hallucination. [laughter] >> It's a brilliant frame. Brilliant frame. >> If it said it was lying to you, you probably would subscribe if there was hallucinating. It quite cute and quirky. So >> yeah, I never thought of that. That's brilliant. It's a I mean it reminds us you've got some amazing talks sort of semi-related to that as well. You've got some some pe a lovely professor on conspiracy theory. Is it Karen Douglas? >> Yeah, Professor Karen Douglas. Um she's going to talk about what happens when trust goes wrong. So by by kind of studying these kind of more lateral extreme user brains, we can understand that if you can understand why people get into into those um different areas, you can understand how trust is really functioning inside the brain and and and what are the different things that lead to our beliefs. And she has a three-part model that she's going to she's going to share with us. But when you realize the powerful forces that are behind um shaping conspiracy theories that the psychological ones, the reasons why we grip onto them, you kind of get a much better sense for why they do kind of spread like wildfire. So yeah, that one would be super exciting. >> I remember having a I think Dan Arieli wrote a book about conspiracy theories. I think he got sort of mixed up in one. And I remember that there was some research they found showing that actually AI is quite good at at debunking conspiracy theories or changing the minds of conspiracy theorists if that makes sense. So it was something there was some I I I'll have to look up the exact research but it was something around the fact that it's kind of this this external entity um and and something around the trust to do with that as well. So it's uh yeah it would be fascinating to hear her talk um that would be brilliant. And then there was another one. We we made a course a while ago with Mark Balden who I think you know as well. Brilliant body um language. >> Yeah. Yeah. And he and you've got Adrien Carter. She's she's also absolutely fantastic as well this this year. Um and I think as we as as we sort of have some slight doubts around AI when we see people we we want to yeah you sort of trust in them becomes more and more important in a way and the body language side of things must be yeah you know brilliant one to learn more about uh do you have a rough idea of some of the things he's going to be exploring? >> Oh it's super interesting. Yeah, because we all know, don't we, kind of 93% of body language is non-verbal and 7% is verbal. And she talks a lot about how the body talks first. How, especially when it comes to trust, the body will be will be will be dictating to others whether you're trustworthy or not. So, she's going to kind of unpick some of those areas um that can make you more trustworthy or or kind of stop you doing things that make you unfairly look less trustworthy. And um and some of them are really simple that that we all do all the time. So, she's going to come up and um and tell us all about that. And she's, you know, big Tik Tok star. She's got, you know, that that really interesting huge following. And she gets kind of tapped up on the train when she's coming down for kind of more tips. And so, so I'm pretty sure she's going to be mobbed on the day because, like you say, when we show up in the real world, we we all want to know what we're unconsciously saying, what our body is saying on our behalf. And so, being a bit more conscious about that, I think, is going to be going to be great for everyone. >> It's a brilliant one. I mean, yeah, mirroring is a is a good one, isn't it? You sort of if you want to gain trust, just mirror the the roughly what what the other person's doing and they'll they'll instinctively trust you a little bit more. >> Yeah. >> Is it is um is it sort of a subset of behavioral science in a way, body language, or is it is it just something that's related and a separate thing? I would say that where where when we say behavioral science we mean kind of any study of human behavior and I think there some purists there was um what would kind of say behavioral science specific subsection of something but for the for the of accessibility to to people that make a real difference in the world we're more than happy to say any anyone who studies or looks at or changes human behavior is kind of welcome at Nudgetock to kind of show us more about how to do that. Do you think that I mean also you you were there literally from the start when behavioral you helped start the whole division for for for Oglev way back in the day. Has it got easier? Is it now sort of I would imagine you spent many years just explaining what the term meant to people and now is it is it something that that you find people are coming to you more with or is it still something where you have to there's an expla explanation job up? >> I mean there's been some awesome people who have helped us start the practice in the beginning. JZ Groom, Sant Tatum, all you know, lots of great but um it definitely has it definitely has evolved over the past 14 years. Yeah. So I think and it's still different in different countries and different industries which is quite interesting. So you kind of you never know what room you're walking into before you're in it. Um but no, some people there are there are the people that are still not heard about behavioral science. There are people that have read the books but not applied. And then there are people that have tried it several times and and and have have a view either kind of it's fantastic or it didn't quite work for me uh the first time. And then and then what we're finding I think what we're really finding now now is that that it's really picking up amongst senior management who are seeing it as a uh a new lens to apply to their stickiest challenges and and that's been really refreshing. I think the big change over the past three years is we've never had more kind of seuite clients saying to us I would like to bring in the way you think and it's quite hard to bring in the way that a team thinks the way that a capability thinks and um but I think the biggest unlock has been that um you know we believe that behavioral science is often the missing seat the table but it should rarely be the only seat the table like the magic is in in bringing it in combination with lots of other great skill sets. It's not really a thing that you can kind of wield by itself. Nudgetock's a great day of going, let's all look through this lens. You know, trust, what's that? Well, let's see what a social psychologist would say about trust. Let's see what an evolutionary psychologist say about trust. Let's see how by looking in all these different ways that we can would reveal something. But the way that we apply it would always be in combination with lots of other other people. So, I think that kind of more mature approach of kind of like joining hands with lots of great disciplines to apply is is a big unlock. And then there's just been a we just gone up a maturity curve when it comes to kind of senior clients really going you know and the people that can really make a change to an organization really really say okay we need to we need to we need to start with these three things and then and then we we go from there. So yeah that that's been the big and where does it go next I don't know but um but I think it's going to be about being more embedded into into the dayto-day. Yeah, it makes a lot of sense to me and I remember reading I actually don't know whether it's true but I remember reading it maybe it is that um that that back in the in the early days of advertising psychologists and behavioral scientists were were actually kind of almost more common and then there was just a period where they kind of seem to have disappeared and now I think particularly in today's world it's becoming more important than ever before. So bravo and I I' I'd love that particularly with your division at Ogleby, you always share these these papers each year on on the kind of the the successes but also your failures and very few companies do that. You share share what didn't work. I've always massively admired that and I hope that Ogleby appreciate that from you as well. It must be a great a great way to to to get to sort of ladder up in in priority. I think advertising in general has struggled with that a bit in recent years. So being able to approach it from that kind of behavioral science view must must open up some wonderful doors. I do agree like humility is is the biggest way to drive um teamwork because if you come in and you say I'm this behavioral scientist who knows more about this than you do, it's surprising how unwelcome you are in that room. But if you sell to to say we have some additional lodge, we see things differently. You see things differently. Let's see what we can do together. It's amazing how kind of far you get in kind of large organizations like within your own and and and more more broadly. Um so yeah, absolutely. I think I think that behavioral sciences has evolved to kind of get to that level and now it's about now it's about going what are the we're lucky that we've done 10,000 projects. So we've been going for 14 years. We're on a thousand projects. And that allows you, I think, to talk about um where your impact was was massive and where the impact was marginal with more confidence if you've only done 10 cases and you know, you can't really talk about small effects. But that that's what that's what the reality is of of everybody knows of doing testing in the real world of sending messages out to customers and seeing what you get back. It's it's always going to be you're gonna get if you test 10 things, you're going to get two standouts, two failures, and then eight kind of eight six in the middle that um that are going to not teach you much. And but it's looking for those extremes that the biggest learnings and that whether that's the biggest failings or the biggest wins. >> I want I mean the conference in in my mind that it's it's grown in step with with how you you've grown as a as a division. It's it's amazing the quality of the people that you're getting here. I mean that that it's kind of a a dream list this year in my head of of who you would want and then in that that you were talking about getting access to seauite people. These are all huge globally famous people that I think if you tried to put this on 10 years ago it wouldn't it would be a bit more difficult to get them or probably impossible. Um but now it's it it's amazing. How how do you h how do you get access to some of these people? Is it sort of a total higgledy piggledy mix or is it just been lucky that it's it's grown in a nice way? >> It's it's I cannot tell you like how proud we are of of how it's grown over 14 years. Like it is. >> So you should be. >> Thank you. I and and the the interesting mix of people that we get. I mean, you know, Rory has an amazing contact list. Um and and we we we pick a theme very early on. We rest our brains on it. We don't panic. with panic a bit, but we we try just to kind of do it do it slowly and see who we meet and um and all the experiences that that come along. And then and then slowly and surely like if you rest if you rest your brain on it enough interesting diverse different people come along people you wouldn't expect to to give you an insight on trust like pe what we we really want nudge talk to be not the YouTube talk that you would have searched for but the what once you've watched it you're so glad you did. Um, and I think that's kind of the promise, which is it's not it's not the it's not the expectation that you would have from a marketing conference, but for some reason it gives you, you know, more more power and energy to do what you do uh afterwards. And so, you know, we'll have Leah Brown who's um an expert in repair. So, she goes into boardrooms and has been into many boardrooms and when trust goes wrong, when it fails and it's gone, but the business depends on it, she can come in and to help fix it. She's kind of an ex lawyer. um and she just does an amazing amazing job there. We've got Katherine Templar Lewis who's a um human scientist and she again a neuroscientist looks at um when do you trust your gut? Really important question that that again might not be kind of um a media channel you need to look into, but it's a skill that you might need. Turns out the answer kind of is when you're feeling anxious, don't trust your gut. If you're not feeling anxious, your gut's probably got quite a clear view. So, you know, watch her talk for kind of far more far more insights than that. And then we've got Professor Michael Matthew Krishna who's who's this kind of huge expert on um where did trust come from? Why does it exist? Why is it this kind of invisible force in society that helped us to survive? He's going to kind of tra look at the history of trust to kind of help us figure out what's going on in the present. So, um, and and I don't know whether it was this recording, Chris, or the previous recording, but I need to make sure I I me mention her, which is Dr. Eliza Philby, historian, amazing speaker, and um, you'll see her on the day. and she's going to talk about she's got lots of interesting data about how the different generations trust differently not not you know lazy stereotypes about about um different cohorts of people but kind of actual data about that's based in because of the context in which they were brought up in why they might trust their boss less and trust their family more for example and I think that's going to teach people a lot and help us see how we think about generations quite differently so you can see there's all these different kind of weird hidden wonderful ways into into the topic of trust issues. Um and so by the end of it I think people will be there 17 sessions in the day and and that's without surprise ones as well along the way. So people will be exhausted um you know and they can obviously watch on the live stream as we said earlier but um they'll be exhausted but also can watch the festival back afterwards as well. So last year we had over a million people watch the content back which is amazing. >> Wow. Um, so, um, and this year, I'm not going to say what the surprise is, but we've been doing something with somebody since the start of the year to seed a thought into the into the world. >> Wow. Wow. Okay. Intrigued. Intrigued. I think the the beauty about Nudto is whenever I go to it, the the you kind of it sets you up for thoughts and ideas for the whole year ahead. I mean it it it's there are so many little nuggets of of information. I mean if if you if you haven't been to N talk before, you must must must go. And if you don't trust us for whatever reason, just go on to YouTube and look at any of the the past talks. They really are phenomenal. So highly highly recommend you go and and uh is there a surprise Dan Bennett talk uh in there as well or is it you're you're MCing as usual? I hope >> MCing. No surprise talk. Um but you know available for birthdays if anyone needs one. Yeah. >> If anyone is uh running a conference and you want the most incredible behavioral science teacher um or talker speaker that's the one. Can't speak English. Um [laughter] chat with Dan. He is absolutely brilliant. Um Dan I I uh I know you got to dash another meeting but um loads of love. I really appreciate you. I appreciate your time. Um can't wait to uh to hopefully see you at Nudgetock. And um yeah, [music] thank you so so much for for taking time to chat with us. Really really appreciate you as always. You're amazing. >> Thanks for having us on the show, Chris. Been a pleasure. >> Lots of love. >> See you. >> We hope you enjoyed listening to this 42 Courses podcast. If you did, please like and share. Uh any comments are also very very welcome. And of course, if you want to learn more about us, visit our website at 42courses.com. Thanks again.