Craig Ferguson: The TRUTH about Late Night | FULL EPISODE

Guys, hi. It's Neal Brennan. This is the the black [music] shut up. >> Oh, no. Sit stay out of it. I I know I thought you'd forgotten my name. I was trying to help you. >> I was trying to remember the name of the talk show, but I remembered it. I remembered the name of that CNN show. This guy is my guest has a new series called American on Purpose on CNN. >> I want to show you why I became American on purpose. >> He used to host the Late Late Show with Craig Ferguson. >> Ladies and gentlemen, Craig Ferguson. >> Have you figured out who it is yet? Guys, please clap. It's any zip [ __ ] really funny dude and a very instantly charismatic charming guy. Instantly we have a rapport, I'd say. >> Oh, I think so. >> I think you have a rapport pretty easily. I'm you're pretty [ __ ] with your rapport, if I'm honest. >> I I you know, I throw it around a little bit, but I'm a I'm rapport equal opportunity rapport. I mean, I rapport with anyone who rapport back. I think rapport is a two-way street. >> It is, but there you're you have you have chemistry with most people. I have chemistry with a certain kind of person. >> I don't know if that's true. I I cuz I think that you are very attractive both on the podcast cuz you know, what you you and and when you do your stand-up, you're very you look like someone who knows what they're talking about. Maybe it's your glasses, but I don't think so. I think it's a I think it's you. >> But even that people don't like people who look like they know what they're talking about. >> I do. >> I know. That's why I say I have rapport with certain kinds of people. If the person respects someone who looks like they know what they're talking about, then we're fast friends. If they're most people >> don't like that. >> They don't like [laughter] it. >> I don't have any friends, so you'll have to tell me. >> I believe that. >> I don't I don't I really don't. I I I I keep my friends to a very very small group of friends. >> Let's just get into the podcast. Why? Let's his first black limited friend group. >> small people, so I really I don't That's so stupid. I'm sorry. >> It's fine. I might cut it out. I might give you a lead. I'm going to I'm going to cuz a lot of people were would have turned off. >> [laughter] >> I can't take this. >> Oh, [ __ ] >> I'll wait for someone clever. >> Okay, so you small friend group a minor no new friends. What's your what's your feeling? I think that you are more opinionated and more irritable than you let on. >> Oh, 100%. I think that's that's absolutely that's very astute. Yes. >> I look opinionated. You look affable. >> I I I do I do affable because I grew up in a very violent situation. Not at home. I would I mean my family weren't violent to me, but the uh >> Wait, say what do you mean to you? They were violent to neighbors to pass us by? >> were I didn't I wasn't raised by a crime family. >> I don't know anything. >> I was raised in in Scotland in the late 60s and 1970s. So or the 60s and 70s really and and it was a time where I was raised was uh It was very jumpy. You know, there was a lot of sectarian hatred between Catholics and Protestants. It was it was a kind of a adjacent to the troubles in Ireland. There was a lot of that stuff. >> Troubles one of the greatest terms names for conflict. >> Yeah, violence. >> So [ __ ] Irish. >> Yeah, gorilla What's that we bit of trouble? >> [laughter] >> What's we bit of trouble there? They're killing each other. It's trouble. >> Let's not make a big deal of it. >> This is this is true story. A friend of mine told me this. He was at a funeral for an IRA soldier in Belfast. And at the end, you know, the funeral part of it is they shoot um you know, you get the salute with the guns fired and they fired the gun and somebody had a [ __ ] pigeon, and it landed on the coffin, and the priest the priest said, "Well, sure, the pigeon was involved." >> [laughter] >> They used to say that about somebody who was in in the you know, part of the whole thing. >> Part of the troubles. Yeah, he was he was affiliated he was involved. He was >> Oh, that's very funny. Um, and so you grew up around violence you grew up in a violent time in a violent >> it and the the the and the actuality of it. And so what you do is you you you develop an ability >> violence in your in is there violence in your neighborhood in your region? >> we we had a they had corporal punishment at schools when it was outlawed uh just after I dropped out of high school, but corporal punishment yeah, just in time. It was outlawed by the European Court of Human Rights. That's how far they had to take it before they got rid of it. Um, but they used to belt us when we were very very young. They I mean I'm 5 years old I'm talking about being thumped by a thick leather belt uh that was specially made for the purpose. You had to hold out your hands and they would just bash you >> This is Catholic school? >> No, this is Protestant well >> State school. Right, okay, but so it's a state it's a Protestant state school. >> school. It's it's a state school. It's the government school and it was and there was a lot of kind of and I would think I think of it as normal like pushing and shoving and violent with young men, but but I I don't think it is that normal really. I've when I've talked to people who grew up outside of that they did not grow up with violence between young men. I think of it like my oldest son who's 25 who grew up in California. I would be like teaching him how to box and stuff and he's like, "Dad, it's not Scotland." >> This is for to burn calories? So I can have a beach body? >> [laughter] >> But I was like, "No, you got to keep your left up and all that kind of stuff." He's like, "What are you talking about? I'm going to art class, you know, I mean >> We live in Brentwood. What are you talking >> Well, it almost yeah, it was that good. Yeah, there you go. [laughter] And it was it so it was a kind of you develop a people-pleasing thing. I think that's right to say that that affability becomes a useful tool. You know, you have >> Do you think a lot of Scots are like that as a result? Because it doesn't seem You seem I I will say that the Scott comics I'm I'm aware of and know are really really affable. They're really like fun and like they can make small talk and it's very charming and moms like them and girl like, you know what I mean? >> Depends on what part of Scotland they're from, to be honest, cuz I'm from the west of Scotland, which is I mean, my grandparents are Irish, you know? And so it there's a there's a there's a kind of difference between the east and the west of Scotland, weirdly enough. It's 45 mi, you know, from Glasgow to Edinburgh, but there's a world of difference. And and the >> So is it with the west is more Irish, do you think? >> the west is more Irish. And the west is >> put it on a darker Is it a darker note? >> I think they're all pretty dark. I think I think the whole thing is on a dark note. I think I think anyone who does stand-up has a darkness. Anyone at all. I'm talking anyone. >> I might completely agree. >> The most like, you know, uh affable, lovely >> Louie Anderson was the the best. >> I I knew Louie, yeah. That's yeah. There's a lot of darkness in Louie. >> I can't stay long. I'm in between meals, so bear with me. Okay, so you find yourself affable as like a a survival mechanism. >> I think that that's fair enough to say. I think it was probably developed. I genuinely I'm not looking for trouble. >> No. >> You know, I mean, >> But you know how to like you can >> I can hang. >> You can hang. You can give somebody a real good 3-4 minutes. Most people. >> I think so. I I think I think what it is is that I I also developed a lot more through Peter Lassally. Do you know who Peter is? >> The producer. >> Yeah. >> Peter >> That's interesting. He He produced The Late Late Show. >> Yeah, but he was he was a legend of of that kind of thing. He had produced Johnny Carson for 35 years. >> Oh, right. >> done Dave and and so the way of what I learned from Peter just about anything about any kind of performance or just being uh active politically and by politically I mean, you know, in in life and in show business. He he was a real kind of Mr. Miyagi for me. I mean, he really turned me around with all that. >> And what do what when you say that, what do you mean? >> Well, >> Cuz I'm fascinated. >> He was the guy who brought me into late night, right? >> He like found you, so to speak? >> Sort of, yeah. I I'd been a guest on Craig Kilborn show. >> Mhm. >> And I had just been, you know, kicking around with Craig and just talking and stuff and >> What were you doing work-wise? >> Uh The Drew Carey Show. >> I hereby join you in civil union. >> Hooray! TIME FOR THE HONEYMOON, DEAR. >> OH, THANK YOU, DARLING. I'M FINALLY AN AMERICAN. I CAN'T WAIT TO GET FASTENED BY GUNS. >> [laughter] >> UH I WAS DOING ENGLISH LESSONS AND >> WHAT I THOUGHT. OKAY. >> I >> I literally was like, I knew I I knew you were doing something. I just didn't know what it was. >> that, really. I'd do some independent movies and stuff and and working as an actor and writing and and then I never thought about late night. Late night's such an odd thing to me because I never any I didn't come to it the same as anybody else. To me it was like being a [ __ ] realtor. You know, it was like >> Well, it's funny if you're not from America. I'm Trevor Noah had the same reason. Like, I can't cast like >> briefly as well. It was like, what the you know, I I never really got it. Um like the deification of it and the the I I was like, man, it's a nice job. >> have some good news. It's over. >> Yeah, well, [laughter] that's good. >> It's a fit as a a couple weeks from now, if not already, it's over. The deification period. >> I It's funny cuz I get asked about it a lot. I get asked about late night. I'm like, I'm uniquely unqualified to discuss late night. I never watched it before I did it. I [ __ ] didn't watch it while I was doing it. I wasn't >> [laughter] >> So, it's like I I genuinely know less than just about everybody. >> Yeah. So, what did Peter tell >> But Peter Peter had an immense moral authority. And it was very important. I grew up This is a kind of convoluted way of explaining Peter to you, but it's important and it's for me to to understand >> Peter's alive now? >> Uh he is. He's very very old. >> Okay. >> But Peter uh was a Holocaust survivor. >> Mhm. >> Uh Peter was in a concentration camps when he was a young young adult really. He was in there till he was about 15. Peter was at the same high school and was at the same class as Anne Frank. And I mean, it was it's like you know, when you complain about oh, your my childhood in Scotland was some people were emotionally unavailable. I mean, he he could really take control of that for me. Plus, he had such an understanding of how to survive in difficult situations given this difficult situation that he the first one he approached. And and he would say some very interesting things. First of all about late night he would say to me, "You're in somebody's house. Don't yell at them." You know, don't don't shout and stop that. And then he said to me in within my first 2 weeks of doing the show he said, "You know, you've got a creepy laugh." I went, "Really?" He went, "Yeah, you got to stop doing that." And I was like, He said, "Look, I I love you, but you got to stop doing your creepy laugh. It's creepy." >> Was he right? I don't >> Yeah, I think he he was. I used to go like that. I don't know I think >> Yeah. >> I I I had to alter my creepy laugh or something. And I did. I I really I was became very aware of it. Um stopped laughing in a certain way on stage. And he would say interesting things about jokes. When I hear people getting into trouble for things they jokes they've done and you know, I've certainly been in that category as well, but Peter would always say if we if we had a joke that we'd done on the show or someone had ad-libbed something which is nearly every night because we kind of worked in that way. He would say if we were going to cut a joke out it's I would always kind of go no, we have to leave the joke in and and Peter would always say, is it is it worth it? Is it that good a joke? >> Yeah. >> And the answer nearly always is that's not that good a joke is it? >> Also like what's the reward for the best joke? >> Yeah, a laugh, you know, that's [laughter] it. We got plenty of them. >> Well now and okay, now what's the reward for a mediocre joke? A laugh. >> Pretty much the same thing. So it it kind of my I can kind of draw a few lines through my life when things changed and this is not in chronological order, but Peter is definitely one of them where, you know, the world pivoted for me a little bit around this individual and and there's a lot more affability after Peter. I learned so much. >> Are you glad it for it? >> Yes. >> So it wasn't a adjustment a professional adjustment. It was a >> It was that too. But but >> Yeah. >> the the unintended consequence was like you were changed. >> Yeah, I think that's right. He He would say as well, he said the best thing you can do and he said when I was trying out for the show I you know, I was just like taking around. I wasn't paying much attention to it and he said to me, I want you to take this seriously. This is for I remember the first time I met him. He said, I want you to take this seriously because if I'm right he said this is his he said he said, I have very few discernible skills, but one of them is finding people like you and if I'm right, you're lightning in a bottle. So you must pay attention to what I say. I was like okay, crazy old man, I'll And it just it something so unlike anything I'd ever heard in show business. You know, it wasn't like >> cinematic. It's very serious. >> It was like being in a movie and as you say and it's cinematic like being in a movie?" Exactly. Um And and so I it kind of landed and I thought, "I'm going to listen to him." >> How old were you? >> I was 42. >> Yeah, cuz that's old. You're a old to me, like, "Look here, if I It's like something you'd say to like a young female." >> Right, exactly. I wish I'd met him when I was young, but I didn't listen to him when I was young. And it was funny cuz I remember I was 42 at the time. I'm 64 now. So, the idea of I remember like the some NBC executive at the time saying, "Ah, we're not worried about Ferguson. He's too old to start a late night show." I'm like, "Am I?" I don't I don't know. No, but I I was 42. I don't think that's too old to start >> And it did well, right? >> The show? >> Yeah. >> It did okay. Yeah, it did all right. >> You were on against Conan? >> Uh, yeah. We were on against Conan for like four three four or five years. I can't remember cuz I was like Conan >> Oh, and when you were like Yeah. >> And then Jimmy came on and he was doing that and then Jimmy moved up and Conan moved out and Jay and all that mess and then Uh, and then I think I was still there when Seth >> Yeah. >> moved in as well. I mean, I And then they came and went. I I did it for 10 years. >> Yeah. And and did you like doing it? >> I did. I liked it for a long time. And then I didn't I I liked it because I was I was I was It was possible for me to hide. And what I mean by that is what was is this is like David Letterman owned the time slot. >> Mhm. For like fit like not physically, but like he owned the rights to the >> physically owned the time slot. >> I know, but it's you can't own time. So, what it it >> [laughter] >> it >> can own That's why he's got a beard. Since >> Since he got that beard, he owns time. >> [ __ ] >> Yeah, no, he's amazing. No, Dave owned the time slot because of the deal that he had made. >> got to decide who would go on after him. >> Right. So, CBS didn't pay any attention. >> He owns part of the sea as well. >> Right. He owns He owns time >> And the wind. He has a small piece of the wind. >> And and the and your mind. >> Some of our conversation, about 40% of what we're talking about, is owned by Dave. >> Fine. >> And he thought it up. >> Have it. >> Yeah. >> But >> he uh he wasn't paying any attention to me. He was doing his own show. >> Yeah. >> Uh so, nobody was paying any attention. When I figured that out, like CBS weren't really giving me notes. >> Yeah. >> And Dave wasn't giving me any notes. And I thought, the only people that are watching this are the people who >> It's a bit of like a foreign embassy in like a peaceful country. Like >> It was just a weird piece of no man's land. And and so, I knew that my tenure of being able to do whatever the [ __ ] I wanted ended when Dave left. As soon as Dave went, the freaking the wall comes down and those [ __ ] are coming for me. >> So, how long was it 7 years or something that you'd been doing it? >> But you'd been doing it when did Dave leave? How many years? >> Dave left He left 6 months after me. See, I tried to leave after 8 years uh cuz I thought Dave's not going to do this much longer. And then they came back to me with a deal that was financially very difficult to say no to and so, I I stayed for another year and then there was another year and I said, I really have to go and we made a deal and then Dave decided to go and so, it all kind of slotted in just the >> Got it. So, it actually you So, once he was leaving, you knew like, oh, they're getting Let me leave while the getting's good. >> never going to survive once Dave's out of the way because he's >> would have survived, but it would have been like under somebody It would have been like a lot of >> of things I didn't want to do. >> Yeah. >> Uh and whereas I had gotten a good tenure run at that show working with the greatest producer who'd ever worked in uh late night television and nobody else giving a [ __ ] >> Yeah. >> You know, and which was fantastic. >> Yeah. >> It was It's a gift. It will never happen again. And I and I realized it was a moment in time, which of course they have owns. But the the it was just a moment and it and it was over and I had to get out before they turned it into something that that I didn't want to do. And and also I was tired. 10 years. >> Well, it does it feel like Groundhog Day those shows? >> Yeah. >> Cuz I I I'm friends with some people have shows like that and I'll have dinner with them and I'll go who's on the show tonight and they'll be like, oh, I know I have no idea who that is. >> all the time. I I watched You know that there's a documentary about Leonard Nimoy called Becoming Spock. It's a beautiful >> watched it. >> It was beautiful. You should watch it sometime. It's more of a tribute kind of thing. It's It's a gorgeous thing. It's just very very nice. And I watched it and after I said to my wife, "God, what a lovely man. I should have had him on late night." And we looked it up and he was on twice. >> [laughter] >> If only I'd met him. >> Yeah, if only I'd met him. If only And it's so weird because you know, things will come up from that show. I mean, I I was at the upfronts last week in New York and there was a lot of famous people around and I kept having to Google them to see if they'd been on the show and so that I didn't say >> do like hold still so you could do the Google image search? >> I I knew who they were, but I had to know if I'd met them before. So, I had to Google their name and my name together and see if they had been on the late night show. And some of them had and some >> Okay, well, this leads into what we're talking about, which is So, how do you feel about human relationships? Meaning cuz I realized something about myself recently is like, I read into I think all these relationships should be deep and long-lasting and I I've come to the conclusion like, nope, they're not even supposed to be that. Like, you know, work-wise I'd always want to like, let's all get bunk beds and we're going to hang out and we're going to and it's going to be like I watched the Martin Short documentary on Netflix. >> seen it yet. >> And it's just all home videos Uh, it's all the cast of SCTV and Tom Hanks and Steve Martin, they're all like jet skiing and or not or they're water skiing and then Steve Martin and it's like really sweet and I'm like that's what I thought it was going to be and it's not it's never been that. >> It was not that for them either. I mean >> Well, I know. I didn't want to be that cynical. >> You Well, it's No, I mean you've running enough of these guys to know that you know, it looks like that and it's like that sometimes. I mean >> Yeah. >> What I think is interesting is you know, that's why the green rooms and the comedy festivals are always quite interesting because it gets to be like that for a minute. You get to but I didn't I didn't go on a stage on my own because I wanted to hang out with other people. You know, I I went on stage on my own cuz I was I'd been a drummer in bands and I [ __ ] hated guitar players and drummers and well, I I didn't mean I didn't meet any drummers but I hated guitar players and bass players and singers cuz you had to deal with these [ __ ] all the time. >> Yeah. >> And then when you were when you were working on your own, it's just you. >> Yeah. >> And that's I mean I don't even have a warm up. I go I do it myself. >> Yeah. >> Yeah, I don't have an opener. I go out and do it myself. >> And you would do more you would do the lights and the sound and you could also >> the audience some nights as well. I will be honest. It's just me >> and an empty >> inevitable ultimately. >> you know what? You you find out a lot about yourself. >> [laughter] >> You find out what material works. >> Yeah, what Yeah, what what's really testing in comedy? >> Well, as it turns out myself. Um But it I think that it is like that. It is collegiate sometimes but ultimately I think it's a >> I didn't have I had the experience of being from a big family so I thought like oh, it'll be like a big family and it's not it's not supposed to be a family but I just tricked myself into thinking that it would be. >> Do you think sometimes this is some a product of age? I used to think people were uh, you know, people were out to get me sometimes in the competitive world of show business and I it was only fairly recently. I'm talking in the past 10 years or so that I realized nobody's out to get you. They're out to forward themselves. They They think about you at all. >> I think there are people who momentarily will be jealous of you. >> Oh, sure. >> But like it's Anyone who doesn't realize that it's golf >> Yeah, you're playing against yourself. >> is like a You're playing the course. It's not like I don't If I think of a joke, it doesn't somebody doesn't not think of a joke. >> But you know that thing Gore Vidal said, he's "It's not enough that I succeed, it's that my friend should fail." >> Yes. >> Um There is a little bit of that. >> There's a little bit of that, but I'd say I would argue with age it uh goes away. It goes away cuz cuz you just it's you realize like it there's no correlation. >> Yeah, and and also what it the demystification of of what it is is one of the things I'm very grateful for that late night did for me is it demystified fame and success and and to a large extent money. Look, I'm not against money. Money's great. If If you've not got it, it's just the worst, but it's limited in what really it can do. And and success and and fame kind of the same, I think. That it's great to have them, but you know that lump's still a lump. >> Yeah. >> Yeah, you know, it's like uh fear's still fear. Everything's still >> So, you know about my lump? >> You have a lump? >> A lump. >> [laughter] >> I I'm I'm actually I didn't want to bring it up, but You're aware of my lump? >> of It's kind of obvious. >> Um the Yeah, and that it it is comforting and like also like being hot, being less hot, being hot, being hot. That's like >> very weird. Because when you get One of [clears throat] the most cynical things I ever heard was the best time to buy a house in Los Angeles was September. Because everybody who gets their pilot picked up buys a house in August, it gets canceled in September, and they have to sell their house. So, you get a I mean It's horrible, but >> Yeah, that's what but that's that's how we built our real estate empire. >> Yeah, that's how That's how I made my money. >> And how do Okay, so we're we're jumping around, but so you're So, friendship, you just your wife's your friend? >> I mean, I have a couple of close friends. I have a couple of friends I've had for a long time. I have a a buddy of mine who I met my buddy John, a Scottish guy. I've known him for 34 plus years. And we've been friends all that time. And I have friends from back in the day and people I'm always happy to see and friends who I like to see, but people who I hang out Hey, do you want to go and hang out? I don't think I've got any of that. >> Yeah, well, once you stop drinking Not drinking is a big is a big like say goodbye to 90% of social engagements. >> Well, it's different. I mean, I listen, I stopped drinking and I went to a lot more meetings than I'd been going to before I before I I'd stopped drinking, but the it becomes different, for sure. >> [bell] >> This episode is sponsored by BetterHelp. Come on. Come on. Come on. You know, they should all be They should be I should get two BetterHelp ads a a show. I feel like I've seen podcasts that have that. Anyway, I don't want to compare. That's what I'm using So, what I'm talking about in my therapy. Guys, you've I've talked about BetterHelp forever. The fact that they keep advertising tells me that you guys are using it. And I also know people that have used it. You know, when people used to be ashamed that they met on a dating app, they'd be like we met on And it's like, who cares? This is where we are now. People really like BetterHelp. You can check it out for yourself at betterhelp.com/reviews to see amazing customer reviews in real time. 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Everybody shut up. Start building a smarter picture of your health with Superpower. For a limited time, our listeners get $20 off to unlock their membership. Head over to superpower.com and use code neal for $20 off your $199 Superpower membership. And after you sign up, they'll ask you how you heard about Superpower. Tell them Blocks with Neal Brennan sent you to support the show. And then if somebody says, "Why do you look so good?" be like, "Blocks with Neal Brennan." That's the promo code. It doesn't end when you leave. superpower.com >> I I was mystified when I stopped drinking because >> When did you stop? >> 1992 >> For what reason? >> Uh alcoholism. >> But like bottom >> I >> Peter Roselli >> [laughter] >> No, I hadn't met Peter yet, but I felt his presence. No, um I think it would There was a number of different things. The one that that I I've talked about in the past is you know, I woke up one Christmas morning, and I was on my way to commit suicide. Which felt like a very rational thing. I mean, well, the interesting thing when people talk about it didn't feel There was no dramatic music. It was like, oh, you know, this is what I should do. It felt like a rational thought. You know, what I should do is destroy >> When you say on your way >> It was Christmas morning. I'd woken up in a pub. I I'd meant to get home in Scotland. The pub was in London. I'd never made it. I didn't embarrass myself. I had you know, I It was It was a [ __ ] mess. It was It was terrible. I hadn't got home to my family. I was And the the normal hangover is exacerbated by the deep and profound shame of the alcoholic having a hangover. So, you've got that spiritual hangover and that and that. And so, what came into like a very clear thought in my head was I I must go and kill myself. I must go and jump off Tower Bridge. That's what I must do. Uh I was in London and Tower Bridge is the big fancy one. >> If you're going to kill yourself. >> You know, if you're going to do it, do it right. So, I'm on my way to I'm about to leave the pub and my friend Tommy who had slept behind the bar. Now, I I don't know if Tommy >> That same night or just some other >> That That That That night. He'd slept behind the bar. He was the barman. Um I don't know if he was an alcoholic, but he slept behind the bar. So, he was an Irish guy, you know, and I was on my way I didn't want to tell him I was going to go and kill myself cuz I knew he'd make a fuss. So, I said I said, "I'm just going back." He said, "Well, before you go, have a glass of sherry for Christmas morning." And I said, "All right." So, he poured me a [ __ ] venti sherry, like a pint glass with sherry. I don't drink sherry. And we both had a glass of sherry and we toasted and I said, "Baby Jesus." And he said, "The infant Christ." And we drank them. And as I drank the sherry I forgot to kill myself. I felt great. And it wasn't until years later Well, maybe not that long. Maybe a couple of months later when I was in rehab I reread the story of Dr. Jekyll and Mr. Hyde. It's a fascinating Written by a Scotsman, of course, cuz it would have to be. It's a fascinating look, I think, at alcoholism amongst other things. Because in the story, Henry Jekyll, the respectable doctor, drinks the magic potion, goes out, he commits a murder. And then he he's back in the park, and he's he's still sort of Mr. Hyde, and he wants to be Mr. Hyde as Henry Jekyll, but he kind of looks like Mr. Hyde, and he he has to get into his house because he knows and of course the servants won't let him in cuz he doesn't look like him. But he knows he has to get into his house because he realizes the potion that turned him into Mr. Hyde is the only thing that will turn him into [ __ ] Henry Jekyll again. And it is that thing is the only thing that made me feel normal was the thing that was killing me. >> Yeah. >> And and that's a [ __ ] finger trap, man. That's that's really hard. And it's really hard to figure that out, especially when you're in the emotional and mental turmoil. >> Yeah, and you don't know that. >> You don't know, you're not aware of it. >> And you're not and you didn't have any you didn't hadn't read any of the literature on alcoholism, so you >> I I I look, I'd bounced around a little bit. I'd sniffed around. I I'd figured there was something wrong. It had been noticed by others. >> Yeah. >> But >> Fools. It had been noticed by fools. >> Friends and family, what [laughter] the [ __ ] do they know? Anyway, the the uh but it when it occurred to I mean, there was no cognitive kind of oh, this is what I'm dealing with. This is what it It didn't feel like any of that. The rational thought was I must destroy myself. And then the alcohol went on top of that and I was like, but why? We can sit here all day. >> Yeah. >> And um so the thing that's killing you is also the thing that's keeping you alive. That's a [ __ ] conundrum. >> Yeah. And it takes a long Okay, what take the alcohol away, then you have to realize why you're why you want to destroy yourself. >> Yeah, causes and conditions, I think. I think you have to I I think in order to for me look other people like some people get sober going to the church and they find Jesus or they find science or they find something >> [laughter] >> but what I'm saying is the way I did it isn't the only way to do it but I feel like in order for me in order to to get and remain sober I had to take an inventory of myself from as far back as I could remember and looking at the times where uh things that I that I had brought up feelings in me you know that they maybe getting beaten up at school by these masochistic teachers or I had stuff that I had no control over but it certainly had an effect on me but here's the one thing that I really like about uh about this is that alcoholics of my type in recovery or or the people that I kind of hang with they're willing to be the villain of their own story and I think that's very important so you look at yourself and you go you know who was at fault there me I I was a dick there I need to not be that I need to change and it's it's tempting when bad things have happened to you to say well it was all that and it certainly that wasn't your fault if bad things happen to you it's not your fault but there are other times than maybe a bad thing happened to you and then you did a bad thing and that is your fault you know that the bad thing that you did is your fault um you know and bad is such a relative term but you know if you >> What were your what were your >> I was a I was a singer and a and a fighter and a and a pub man I like to be in the pub >> Singer why do you mention singer >> Well because we sang you sang and then >> Like you sing at the like at the bar like ah yeah yeah So that's like and how what's that a five six hour night >> Oh yeah yeah [laughter] yeah five five six day night. You know, you can you can go with that with the right crew. You can keep that running. And also, you know, then at some point if you're in London some one of these London media guys going to go, "Oh, you want to try a little bump of cocaine?" And then suddenly you're like, "Oh, I can I'm >> You say a London media guy? >> Yeah, yeah. You know. >> Those are the types? >> Oh, you don't >> I've never done I've only done cocaine once. >> Oh, really? Where? >> Yeah. In New Orleans. >> Colombia with a guy that [laughter] >> I don't know what Oh, one of my cocaine journeys. One of my spiritual cocaine journeys. Um >> Is there such a thing? I bet you there is, actually. >> I actually heard one today that they I swear to God a couple hours ago that they did a Xanax journey. So that it's actually in really interesting and I need to like listen to it again. Somebody gave a bunch of people, maybe 10 people, Xanax and they had like musicians playing >> Uh-huh. >> pleasant music and they were all on mattresses. So they did it like an ayahuasca thing, but it was Xanax and people had spiritual transcendent experiences, which is >> You know what we used to call that where I'm from? >> Go ahead. >> A party. >> Yeah, there you go. >> party. >> Yes. Um now, but you guys didn't have that many mattresses though. Everybody didn't get a mattress. Not in one room, Craig. I'm not going to I'm not [ __ ] [ __ ] off. >> That's how we left. Everybody left in one room. And we all gathered round the potato. >> Um so so you would you would just it was like fun. It sounds like legitimate fun. >> There's a great old uh I mean, that's the that's the other confusing thing about I thought I was having a good time a lot of the time. So it's confusing. Um but there's a great old It's an old Irish doggerel thing about, you know, "So we shared another night of poetry and proses, but every man knows he'll be alone when the sacred gin mill closes." And it is a there's a weird kind of the party can't keep going and then you're on your own and there's a there's something weird about that. I don't know. I can't [ __ ] explain alcoholism and I've lived on both sides of active and not and I I'm as mystified by it now as I was then. But I do know one thing, which is if I don't drink it, it doesn't start. >> Right. >> So it it's connected to the first drink. If I That I'm convinced of. >> Yeah. >> The the first drink is the one that does the damage. After that you know, someone else is driving. But if I can avoid the first drink, I can avoid any drink. >> It's just the just >> Is it a daily thought? >> Meaning >> No. It was for a while, but it's not now. I don't think about it that way. Every now and again I think about it. >> It's been 35 years, pretty much. >> Yeah. >> So. >> It more more of my life than sober than drinking. About twice as much. So it's what I do, but every now and again, you know, it comes up. More more with smoking though. >> Interesting. >> I Oh god, if smoking >> more I have smoking dreams. >> I love smoking. I would smoke. >> so long ago and I'm still >> would do it. >> I'd love to. It gives you cancer though. And that's why I don't. >> I'd say I've said this before, have you looked up what amount of people get cancer from smoking? >> I don't want to because I would think, well, here I go. >> it's You want to You want me to tell you? >> Yeah. >> 10%. 90% of people don't. >> Do you know Do you know who I I What percentage I'd be in though? >> Of course. Well, you're special. >> Yeah. I'm special. >> You're so special. >> I'm special. I'm the guy. I'm the guy. I'm the guy. I'm the guy. >> This guy is so special. As they say in the >> I just don't feel like I get away with anything. Do you know what I mean? I just don't feel like that. >> Oh. The the the the 12-step term is terminally unique, but but it's a I'm surprised you haven't heard it. Isn't that >> I'm I'm surprised you have. >> [laughter] >> But also I have a lot of situations where I'm like, no, that was I shouldn't have gotten caught or I shouldn't have and I did." Like some anomalies, some in obviously we're both you're lightning in a bottle, so you get it. >> Like I never said I was lightning [laughter] in a bottle. People like Sally said I was lightning in a bottle. >> but right, but you are lightning at outsiders would call you lightning in a bottle. I don't think you were walking around thinking that. I thought you were lightning in a bottle. You thought you were some kind of lightning, but not in a bottle. >> Holy [ __ ] is that what I thought [laughter] I was? At least I was just [ __ ] Yeah. >> so you're getting laughs at [ __ ] Drew Carey that we Wait, you were getting laughs on every line. >> Every line. >> Even the lines I wasn't doing. >> No setups. >> CATCH A BUCKET. >> [screaming] >> THAT SOUND BRITISH TO YOU, BOY? >> SO YOU can I'm with you with like, "No, I'm going to get." I don't know if that's even a negative thing or if that's a corporal punishment core belief. >> corporal punishment or you >> I got my There was a lot of hitting and you know, I went to Catholic school, not so much hitting there, but there was at home there one to 10 and >> Are you Are you a Catholic? >> Yeah. >> That's interesting to me. Are you >> I grew up Catholic. >> Are you You're not Catholic and you're agnostic now? >> Uh I'm I'm I believe in a central creation force, but not another one in the >> I don't have any I I'm fascinated by the idea of a god and a creative force in the universe and all of that, but I I have a hard time with ritual and particularly the thing that troubles me about with Catholicism is all the imagery. I'm like, "I can't I can't keep up with all that." But a lot of Catholic theology I mean >> Cinematic Universe. It's just like I don't It's It's Star Wars is a better analogy cuz Star Wars is getting to the point like Grogu? Who? >> What is that? I gave up after that. >> Saint who? Like I mean that's the >> There's some really good ones, though. There's some really great saints. There are some that I love. >> Of course, but it's they're they're deep cuts. >> They are deep cuts. I went to St. Francis of Assisi's at the town in Assisi. >> Yeah, actually, yeah. >> Yeah. And you know what I thought cuz they have his cloak and all that and and bits and his glasses and everything. I was like, this reminds me of the Hard Rock Cafe. >> I was going to say Planet Hollywood. >> [laughter] >> No, it is. It's all kind of like that. >> It's all like plexi same plexiglass. They they lit it they top lit it. >> know what as well? I Have you been to the Rock and Roll Hall of Fame? >> No. >> Well, I have cuz I know Drew Carey and it's in Cleveland. So, I went to the Rock and Roll Hall of Fame. >> Speaking of drug ceremonies, go ahead. >> [laughter] >> And no. Maybe ham ceremonies. But we went to the whole Rock and Roll Hall of Fame and we're walking around it and one of the exhibits they have Buddy Holly's glasses. And I was like, wasn't he wearing them? >> I have a question. >> Yeah, yeah, exactly. I'm like, I don't think that can be true. >> Yeah. >> Um >> W- Well, if you're not if he has more than one pair, >> Yeah, but >> He was sponsored by Warby Parker. >> This is This was the '50s. >> Yeah, you probably had two pairs. Yeah, I It doesn't don't you're not supposed to think about it. >> Uh, all right. Well, I >> But I'm with you. I'm with you. Also, like so they went to the crash site. I mean, all of it's bad. >> ask. They didn't I've also been to the aviation museum near the crash site where they did have debris in Iowa. >> That's one of those things where you go, do we Is >> Well, >> Is it Is it >> I like aviation museums. >> So, it's it was it's an aviation museum and the crash. It's not a museum dedicated to the crash. >> No, no, no, no. >> Okay, so they just have it like off to the side. >> Uh, it's over in Iowa. >> They needed they got some money. They're like, how do we expand this museum? Uh, go to the crash site. >> You're already way deeper into than I ever I I was on tour and I saw the sign. >> No, I can I already I was like, why are you going to museum? I'm like, cuz it's on the road. >> Yeah. >> Um, he's on the cuz he's on the road and he doesn't drink. >> Well, that's [clears throat] right. So, you see a lot of aviation museums and uh, I I love them. I love them. >> I like I'll go on a tour. >> flying. I started flying cuz I was terrified of flying. >> [bell] >> Kurt Russell had been on the late night show and he he's a big aviation guy. >> Mhm. >> And >> That doesn't surprise me at all. Meaning like just like what's masculine. >> Yeah, he he's pretty masculine. >> Yeah. >> You know, he he said, "You're you're not afraid of flying. You're just a control freak." I went, "Oh, yeah?" And he set me up with flying lessons with this guy and then I learned to fly and it turns out I am a control freak and I am also afraid of flying. So, I I let I got a pilot's license. I I did it I went all the way through it. >> And is it easier to fly now? >> Yeah. Yeah. >> For it's easier to be a passenger. >> Yes. Yeah, I I know what the problem is and and it's not uh, what I thought it was. >> What is it? >> Um, ice is what it is. Ice and bad pilots, that's what the problem is. That's rare, you know. >> So, it it's immigration. I'm kidding. Um, >> [laughter] >> so it's ice ice on the wings and um, and bad piloting in the face of ice. >> in general aviation, usually it's continued visual flight rules into instrument flight conditions. That's usually what it is. Which is with the John F. Kennedy thing where you you're not qualified to fly in the conditions that you flew into and you should have turned around and come back out. >> Oh, is that what happened with him? >> I think so, yeah. He got spatial disorientation because he wasn't quite >> I know it was fog, but I didn't know he wasn't supposed to fly. >> He wasn't qualified to fly in the conditions that he flew in. >> Got it. Got it. Got it. But >> enough training. >> Here I thought it was a magic bullet. Guys, that's his father. >> Do you know why I stopped doing a podcast, by the way? Connected to >> [laughter] >> I like that the thing I just said made reminded you of why you stopped doing a podcast. >> Well, I'll tell you why. Because I I thought about this. It was a Kennedy thing. Right? There was two reasons why I stopped doing the podcast. One of them was the look of horror and anticipation whenever I would run into people I know and they I see in their faces them thinking, "Shit, is he going to ask me to be on his podcast?" And >> [laughter] >> And you know what I'm talking about. >> I stopped a podcast whenever Yeah. And then >> And I think about stopping this one all the time. >> No, I know. No, this is a good one. This is a good one. Um >> No, not you you're It looks good on you. >> [laughter] >> You're still got a lot of that show business, aren't you? You know. The But the thing was I was doing this podcast and I got tired of booking guests, so I was just doing it on my own, right? >> Yeah. >> Right? So, I was just talking on my own to the And one day I was talking I had been watching that show about John F. Kennedy and Carolyn Bessette, you know the >> Oh, so this is recent. >> Oh, yeah. And I was watching the show and then I was talking about it on my podcast, which is basically me talking to my phone. >> And I thought, "I wonder if a Kennedy has ever been eaten by a shark?" Because you got to figure with the way life goes for the Kennedys, there's a >> Yeah. At least one of them. >> I you would think, right? >> Yeah. >> And I started to think about it on the show and uh the podcast and then I was talking about that and I stopped and I went away and then I thought, "I'm going to stop doing that podcast cuz that idea was a Kennedy ever eaten by a shark is actually a piece of stand-up that's not formed. And I gave it away too early. It's not It's not ready. It's And I started with I do that a little bit. Well, if you do that too much, you It's an idea about something. I don't know if it's about Kennedys and [ __ ] There's something There's some kind of joke laugh thing in there. >> Yeah. >> But it's not ready yet and I just mused about it and threw it out and now I can't really do it, but maybe I can in a different way. >> You You're To quote Jerry Seinfeld, you know who's seen your act? Nobody's seen your act. You know, and I'm to paraphrase again, you know who's seen your podcast? Absolutely nobody's seen your podcast. >> But I would also say, "You know what, who sees what you've done? Everybody. >> [laughter] >> Everybody. >> You're both right. Both you and Jordan are correct. >> the the stuff you go, "Oh god, I hope nobody sees that." >> That's the one that That's That's the one that goes viral. Um all right, so we have addiction. We have um I'm these are Jordan Jensen's um uh blocks that that Craig crossed off what he had >> cuz I like Jordan and I thought we'd probably have a lot of blocks in common. >> Okay. Magical thinking. This is a This is a new one cuz I'm This is This is a No one's pitched this before and I It's I think it's a it's a quiet killer. >> Well, I I don't know if I'm correct in my definition of it, but magical thinking for me is for example I can't wear anything brown on my body higher up my body than anything blue on my body because then uh everything's upside down. And and trouble is coming. >> So, this is also one of Jordan's that we didn't get to on her episode, OCD. >> Yeah, I think I don't know if it's OCD or magical thinking or if that's the same thing or or if they're I'm sure they're related. >> Are there have any of these superstitions ever all these these spells have any of them come true? >> No. I not to my knowledge. But I can't say that they haven't either because I don't risk it. Do you know what I mean? It's like >> Yeah. >> Once it comes into your head I don't I'm not as I'm >> And they come into your head for no Are they the same five or it's just >> I mean that that kind of [ __ ] comes and goes all the time. I I like for a while there I got into uh reading a lot about pre uh church Christianity in the Egyptian desert in the second and third century. The desert think >> we've all been there. Yeah, go ahead. >> Yeah, you know, uh Origen of Alexandria, yeah, that you know, that there's a bit of stand up for you. Origen of Alexandria, Evagrius of Pontus, Augustine of Hippo really and of course uh uh >> Would that be Saint Augustine? >> Saint Augustine, yeah, and >> He became Saint Augustine, right? >> Of Florida. Uh and the uh And Saint Anthony, I mean, you must have seen Anthony, right? Who went and lived in the haunted fort and then moved to the cave cuz too many people were coming at the fort, lived in a cave for 30 years. All of that became fascinating to me and I and I became fascinated to the >> And it's it's true? >> These people are >> Yeah, they're real people. I mean, as far [clears throat] as you can tell. >> Um Origen of Alexandria was actually a very interesting guy because he was excommunicated after he died. Like years after he died. He was on the way to sainthood and then he excommunicated cuz he was one of the guys that said, "You cannot see an image of God. There can no be no image of God. That's not a thing that can be." And of course if you're >> They're like, "We have all this merch." >> got all this merch. You can't sell merch if if it's all wrong, so >> Yeah, shut the [ __ ] up. >> Um So, he got into trouble, but he was dead, so maybe that was a big deal, maybe it wasn't, who's to say. Um The uh But I get into all that and there was a thing about apatheia, I think it's called in Greek. It's the idea of constant prayer. Constant prayer for and and it for a while there I was trying to there's this the I can't remember who it is. The prayer is, "Lord Jesus Christ have mercy on me a sinner." That's the you just repeat that and repeat it and repeat it. And for a while there that was in I'm not even a Catholic. It was like in my head I was like I would say it all the time and then I got fixated on it, but it's gone. >> And you don't know why it left. You know why it came cuz you read it. >> came cuz I, you know, I wasn't getting enough sleep. That's [laughter] probably what it was. But it I'm I'm interested in other people's uh struggle to define their existence. I I whether they lived in Egypt in the 2nd century or Have you ever read um uh Søren Kierkegaard? >> Uh-uh. >> Fabulous. >> Readable? My issue with that with guys like that are just like, "Look, man, I'm interested >> No, he's not Schopenhauer. >> Don't be German. >> No, no, no, no. He's he's uh he's Danish. >> Okay. >> Danish Christian existentialist, very uh very tough on atheists, which is I enjoy. Um um and then he does this in a He's got a book called uh or a I don't know if it's a book. I think it's a book. Fear and Loathing. >> Mhm. >> Uh and he tells the story of Isaac, you know, Abraham and Isaac, like five different times from five different points He tells the story from Abraham's point of view, from Isaac's point of view, from Isaac's mother's point of view. And he looks at it and looks at it and looks at it and goes around it and compares, you know, Isaac carrying the wood up the mountain for Abraham to Christ carrying the cross and marries them together. And I'm like, "Oh my god, this is fascinating." >> Yeah. >> And and it is fascinating. And it's so deep >> It sounds like a it could be a bit, like a good comedy bit. >> Yeah, it's not funny. I will be honest with you. He's not that funny. Kierkegaard >> [laughter] >> not funny. >> Premise-wise, could be a like You can make a I've heard people try at least do bits or try bits about about that. >> It feels like maybe you know like an old Mel Brooks movie or something like that. >> No, no, but just like kill your son and the what like whatever. You can get there. But or Rashomon or like So, yeah, I'm I'm That's what I have always admired about you is that like, "Oh, this guy likes I think like introspection is a bit of a genre." >> Yeah. >> And this guy likes introspection. >> Yeah. >> Like I like it. I like it. People like when I like my some of my specials are that and like that's the thing people got, "Oh, this guy does introspection." >> Yeah. >> And that's what Do you think you're always like that? Do you think or you're you're in these kind of violent situations or sobriety? >> I think sobriety is connected to it because you start questioning everything. >> What did you find getting sober? What did you find because you said it was conditions or or or whatever causes and conditions? I don't remember >> Causes and conditions of of how you get there. What did I find? Um I guess uh fear. I think there was a lot of fear. And I think >> You minute to minute were experiencing a lot of fear. >> As a as a young person, yeah. And I and I think the as a child I experienced that a lot and it it was just it felt like it was part of me. You know, it felt like it was um >> But do you realize it or when you look back you're like, "Oh, I was afraid the whole time." >> Well, that's that's a hard thing because a lot of the times when I think fear you you know, you try I I don't know if you do this, but I I think I do this. I I dress up as like anger or you know, something like that or or maybe I'm just hungry, you know, but I I don't know. It it comes in so many different forms and and so many different shapes and sizes and moods. I'm not sure that you know, people will say things like that that you know, "When did you know you'd made it in show business?" And you go, "That's not a thing." >> Yeah. >> You don't make it in show business. When did you know you'd conquered your fear of A, B, or C? Like I that's not possible. >> Yeah. >> And to my mind, I mean maybe it is for some people, but my the way my mind works is, you know, it's ready. >> Well, it's all conditional. >> Yeah, you could It'll come back. It's like a It's like an appetite or, you know, it's like a You can have all of it back. >> Yep. >> And I think that there's choices that you make along the way to try and cope. >> And beyond besides drinking, how would you cope? With fear? Do you think I mean, you said anger, hungry. >> Yeah, I don't I don't know if anger actually does any good. I think that with fear control seems to or at least the illusion of control seems to help. So, the idea of So, I probably am a control freak. The The The illusion of control >> Kurt Russell was right. >> He's always right. He's [ __ ] Kurt Russell. >> Don't you get it? >> Yeah, of course he's right. Um You know, it was funny when the uh when he did that movie when he played Santa? >> Santa Claus? >> Live and in person. One night only. >> On Netflix, I was like, man, they must have given him a lot of money to play Santa. >> They're like, hey Kurt, you want to play Santa? Go [ __ ] yourself. >> Yeah. >> It's a trillion dollars. >> Yeah, okay. >> Ho ho ho. >> Exactly. Guys, you know, I've been in New York a lot recently and um like the last year and I've been ordering a lot of You know, you can get greasy vegan food. You don't think you can, but you can. Uh you can do You can be vegan and still be gross about it. But uh which is why when when um our sponsor did a Cook Unity came back, I was all too happy to like get get on board. I was using them when they weren't a sponsor. That's how thirsty and sad I am that I'm like, no, I don't need I just like you guys. Whatever. We can work out an arrangement. They came back, so I'm I guess I manifested it. You got meals from Michelin-starred chefs, James Beard winners, Food Network stars. 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Bonobos, you got this. You're going to you're good. They're legitimately good. 25% off. Come on. >> I don't know. I I I don't know how you how you It changes. Fear changes, I change, and I I change from day to day, and you you get older and stuff as well. >> I think the the thing I like about people that are sober is that they is that they accept the complication of being a person. >> Yeah, it's >> Like like And you just like like, "Okay." You just accept You're just like, "Okay, this is what it is. What am I going to do now?" >> Yeah. I think that's right. And what can I do? If I If I can do anything, I'll do it. If I can't, then that's what I'm going to have to do. I'm going to have to be not doing anything. Uh don't just do something, sit there. You know what I mean? It's like that you you sometimes there's none you can do. And that's all you can do. And And I guess there's that's a big lesson. You know, that But you know, it's funny. Every time I have a conversation like this, which isn't that often, but every time you have a conversation where you talk about big things and things >> The things that What's funny is my algorithm is attuned to it, so I think I get all of them. >> Right. >> When you have these conversations, I'm like, "Oh." So I think that's all you're doing. I don't know you're talking about John >> It's like when you your dog thinks when you go out, you go to the dog park. You're not going to the dog park, >> You [ __ ] idiot. >> [clears throat and laughter] >> Why don't you take me? I'm a dog. And then it's like But it's um when I think about these things, I I you know, it it's almost a little bit like the weather. I'm not entirely sure how it's going to be on any given day. I mean, you can make a prediction I do this, then it'll be like that, but not always. >> Yeah. >> And try to be happy. I think it's okay to try to be happy. I'm not happy all the time. I think people who are happy all the time are terrifying. I I don't I don't know how that can be a thing. That's like clowns. Um that's that's a worry. >> Yeah. I Life is moods. You know what I mean? >> Yeah. >> It's It's moods. It's different things. >> And how do you Are you How are you as a dad? >> Oh, you're asking the wrong guy. >> [laughter] >> Well, what do you think? And do you think you do a good job? >> I try my best. I I I I hope I'm a good dad. Are you a dad? >> Uh getting there. It's complicated. It's complicated. Oh, so you can ask me the deepest question. >> Yeah, you're you're I pay for the studio time. So, I ask the question. I ask the questions. Um Is Is $7,000 an hour too much? >> No, not for me, buddy. >> [laughter] >> Um so So, yeah, like how about husband? How about Did you get meet your wife after you got sober? >> Yeah, I got I actually got married and divorced sober. >> Oh. >> And then I got married again sober. >> Great. So, you raw dogged it twice. >> Most of my life has been sober. So, I mean, it's a How How am I as a husband? I I hope I'm a good one. Uh try to be. Um I um a father? It's really I like I like being a father. >> And how many? >> I have two. Two boys. And I I >> 25 and >> 25 and 15. >> Great. >> Scottish people every 10 years. Like the big orchids in the jungle. You know, they just And then everybody gets pregnant. >> Great. >> I mean, if I go off now, then you'll be a father. >> [laughter] >> Great. >> And a mother. >> I I don't even know what's happening. Um and and are you better from the 25 to the 15-year-old? Or is it you just with kids you just have to like it It's another thing where you it's it's a horse that you're just riding. >> They're them. They're their people. I'm not I'm not under any illusion that they belong to me. >> How much guiding can you do? Do you feel like it's like supervising a cuz I wonder about that. I wonder in terms of child rearing >> This is on your mind. Do you really is coming up for you today? >> Well, no it I I I was thinking about it today. Um I I just think about what how much I I've had friends say my kid came out fully formed. Like it's that kid is the the 23-year-old you see today. He was like that from the our daughter is from the minute I saw them. >> Yeah. >> And and is it can you affect it? You know what I mean? Like >> know. I mean nature or nurture. I don't know about that. >> Yeah, modern parenting really seems to think they can affect it. >> Modern a lot of modern thought isn't that modern and isn't that great. But most of it isn't that modern. That's the most of of all of it. I've become from >> When you say not modern, what do you mean? >> Well, >> It's a based on an old idea? >> Everything is an old idea. You know, it's like the pretty much from >> Pop psychology as is at this level is pretty new though. >> I think it's new in the way that McDonald's and Burger King are new, but food has been around for a long time. It's a different way of getting and some of it ain't ain't that ain't that good, but you know, still quite tasty in places. >> What about the idea of hitting kids? That seems to be like that was accepted. That was the the thing. >> Yeah, that was out of [ __ ] line. Yeah, that was terrible. >> So the that the idea of not hitting them is clearly I don't think that I don't think that's an I don't think that's a old thought. >> No, that's very new. [laughter] You're right. And uh Yeah, cuz I think I grew up when that was it was still okay to hit kids. But uh but I it's not okay with me. I I don't I don't and wouldn't hit my kids. >> Um >> Actually, the older one I Actually, both of them play them now they knock me in my ass. >> Yeah. And and and so it's you're almost like a supervisor. How did you see it? Do you see it as like you can really mold these kids? Do you Did you have the Peter La Salle moments with them? Cuz it that like "Hey, look." >> no. I don't I don't >> Listen here. I see >> I don't think that's what parenting is. Uh for for me anyway, my take on it was uh keep you safe and keep you uh fed and keep you clean and keep you from being scared. >> Uh and then >> Moral guidance? Yeah. Yeah, I guess. This is what I think, you know, but other people have different ideas. I mean, yeah, moral guidance, of course. Don't do that. You have a [ __ ] stop it. You know, you know, don't poop on the floor. >> For instance. >> That's That's daddy's stuff. >> [laughter] >> But the uh yeah, I mean, you it it's it's too big a thing. I mean, it's it's not like I don't think there's a one thing you can say about it. It's like So, what about music? Yeah. >> Yeah. >> You know, it's enormous. >> Yeah. >> Um it's There's so many different aspects on it. It's overwhelming. It's different. It's I think the one thing I do remember about it thinking and I still think this is true. The when you become a parent I became a parent. I don't know if this is the same way for everybody cuz I'm not everybody, I'm me. But when I became a parent, I feel like I went from being the star in the movie of my life to a supporting artist in the movie of someone else's life. >> Yeah. >> And there was one day I was standing This is quite a long time ago. I was standing outside Gelson's and in LA. And I was with my oldest son who was about 15 at the time. And this young woman walked by and she looked at him and I saw them looking at each other and then uh they went nothing there was nothing in it just two young people looking at each other and then she went away and I realized that she didn't she hadn't seen a guy with his son. She had seen a guy with his dad. He was the guy and I was the supporting player. >> Yeah. And did you how do you feel about it? >> Okay. All right. It's okay. I've done a lot of supporting roles. I I'm I'm okay with that. >> fifth lead on your call sheet. >> Not even sixth I'll have [laughter] you know. >> You but just you notice that he knows what number he was. >> You know you know the person that far down the call sheet knows that if you're number six in the call sheet you know you're number six. And this is the '90s they let you know you were number six in the call sheet. >> in terms of pay there was everything was locked in you knew what you were going to make the minute you got the pilot. Um you you don't hold up. Um and did you Okay, so so yeah cuz a lot of people don't like it. A lot of people don't like being Some people say I liked that it wasn't about me anymore and then I've also heard people say I I don't want to have kids cuz I wanted it to be about me. >> It's a choice. You're allowed to not have kids too. I mean I'm not one of these people who say oh you got to have kids. You you don't have to it's it's up to you. >> Yeah. >> Uh sometimes. >> [laughter] >> I mean um I mean it it happens the way it happens. >> And uh what do you what's most of your time spent on and I don't even mean like what are you doing but what are you feeling and thinking? It's it's the broadest possible question I could ask and I thought as a talk show host you would appreciate it. >> Yeah. Um I never thought of myself as a talk show >> No, I know. I know you know. >> But but but what's interesting >> And what's funny is the more you go on the the less I'm like he was not I didn't realize how funny you were because you never made me laugh. >> [laughter] >> No, I then I would see [ __ ] and I'd be like, this [ __ ] guy is quick. >> Mhm. >> And but I didn't know think you'd be that quick cuz cuz of that job. You you everyone who does it pretty quick. >> Mhm. >> But you're very quick, I would say. So so >> Yeah, I am. >> So anyway, so what do you spend most of your >> I'm going to answer this in a rather oblique way, but I think it does answer it. Which is if I couldn't do anything but write, I'd be fine. So I think I have to for some reason, for whatever reason, whatever impulse I have, I need to tell stories. When I was drunk, I told stories. When I was got sober, I told stories. How I stay sober is to tell stories and hear stories. You know, um the the idea of of, you know, I'm Irish and Scottish. I I, you know, my people tell stories. We make [ __ ] up, you know. And and it's poetry usually and and songs and and and so I feel like that that's where I live in most comfort is in some in the either the creation or the absorption of fictional or partly fictional worlds. And the truth is the older I get, I think a lot of this [ __ ] is fictional anyway. And so the I kind of I think that's where I live live, I think most of the time. It >> Well, that's the other thing is your your your you have more depth than a talk show host. Generally, I mean again, not like Colbert and these guys are shallow, but like you you you know, maybe it's the algorithm feeding me, but like you're And again, I don't also it's just a part it's a fifth of sixth of your life. So like >> Yeah. >> But it's just how for for most of for other people it's 80% of your episode. >> I understand. I understand that it makes sense and I'm happy >> But I like I like the deep part. That's the part I like. So that's what I'm I'm curious about. >> I think that the the trouble sometimes I think if you do a job that becomes very identifiable. It's that old joke, you know, you [ __ ] one sheep and you're the sheep [ __ ] You know what I mean? It's that you host one talk show and you're the sheep. It's like you do a thing and everybody likes that thing or wants that thing and I like that thing and wanted that thing and I'm proud of that thing. And and I'm I'm I'm in no way dismissive of it at all. But there's other things, you know. And and I really there were times doing the talk show. You know, we I I had this skeleton sidekick, you know, and >> Careful, Icarus. >> [laughter] >> Somebody asked me one night about why do you have the skeleton I was I was someone a show business haha question about what what what what's what's with the skeleton? And I said, "It's the mocking presence of death reminding me that this is transient. It is my triumph. I am Caesar. This is my slave." And I could see them like >> We'll be right back. >> Yeah, yeah, yeah. They cut to the commercial break. That's how bad it was. Um I think but the people that connected with me on that show and still connect on that show cuz it still runs all over the place on the internet and stuff. The people that connected with me on that show, they know that that show I used to say this over and over again in the show, "This is not a late night talk show. I'm not a late night talk show host." And there's very few guests that actually picked up on it, but there was one I remember and I'll always We don't see eye to eye on everything, but it was remarkable. It was about halfway through the interview and we're We're [ __ ] around comedy comedy. And it was Ricky Gervais. >> Uh-huh. >> And he said, "Hang on a minute. This isn't a [ __ ] talk show at all, is it?" No, >> it's not. Congratulations. >> Yeah. >> And he got it. >> Yeah. >> Because he works in improvisation and he works in It's not. It was like, "Come and improvise. Let's see what [ __ ] happens." >> Yeah. >> That's what that show was. >> Yeah. >> So, was it a talk show? I guess. People talked. >> Yeah. >> But was it that? No, because I'm not that. >> I'm talking about the I'm interested in the party that wants that the spiritual part of what you're doing. >> Yeah. >> Even what you are. What your what your essence is. >> Yeah. What what do you think it is? Because I I don't know. Let's talk Let's You talk about me for a while. Don't be flippant. That's defensive. >> [laughter] >> Um I I'm Well, I I What's it What I'm It feels like somebody There's something I I feel like there's something about time with you and about There is one about death and about connection and [ __ ] around. >> Yeah. >> And there is like a little sadness to it. >> Definitely. >> And um >> Time's a good one. Time is You know what? Time You're right about time. Here's Here's an You ever read any C.S. Lewis? >> Uh >> I haven't because because it it's like it feels too too Christian and too But I'm sure >> Definitely. Yes, he's a Christian apologist. If you don't like him, go I mean, go You can go deeper. G.K. Chesterton. >> Okay. >> Uh who is like kind of his >> Uh >> origin story, if you like, for C.S. Lewis. He's pretty good on this. But But C.S. Lewis does an interesting thing talking about Cuz I think G.K. Chesterton, as well, was like this. That H.G. Wells was a big atheist, you know, socialist and stuff. >> to say something with a full first name. Herbert George >> Right. >> Thank you. >> Right. >> Herbert George Wells was a I think it's Herbert George or Harry Gumba. I don't know. Harry Gumba Wells. It's definitely H.G. Like, "Hey, how are you doing?" "Hey, how are you doing?" That's me, H.G. Wells. But, H.G. Wells and G.K. Chesterton were friends. >> Yep. >> And they would use to have arguments about Christianity. And, you know, one's an atheist and one's a big Christian apologist and stuff like that. But, one of the arguments I heard, which I loved, was the idea about time. Uh is the the idea that evolution is somehow the theory of evolution is somehow negates the idea of there being a god. And, I'm like, "I It doesn't even doesn't even touch it. I don't know why anybody thinks that." >> Um the idea that if it takes, you know, 50 million years for something to happen, in the terms of the universe, that's >> Yeah. >> It's a second. It's nothing. >> Yep. >> Um and so, the idea of we measure time by our lifespans or the lifespans of our civilizations or our families or and that's [clears throat] like we measure, you know, we count up to 10 cuz we got 10, you know? It's not really a thing. >> No, it's the right amount of >> It's the right amount of things. Yeah. And, I think that I think there are so many ways to look at the world that are interesting and many of them encouraging. Because I spent a lot of time But, I think when you're drinking the way I drank, there's a You spend a lot of time in despair. For you're in this trap. You can't get out. The thing that's keeping me alive is also killing me. >> Yeah, there's something psychedelic about >> Yeah. >> your like living in this anomaly or this contra- this somnital liminal space. >> Yeah, I think that's right. I mean, the I found, weirdly enough, I took acid a few times. Maybe like 15 to 30 times. I'm not entirely sure. And, I didn't care for it at all. I did not enjoy it once and then it's kind of interesting because but I didn't take it the right way, you know, I I if there is a right way to take it, you know, I certainly didn't do it by a river, you know, and >> You didn't do it with the mattresses the way they say. >> I did it after 10 pints of Guinness in the Griffin, which is a pub in Glasgow, which, you know, it's a completely different experience. Um but the the idea of of it's weird enough. That's the way I feel about life. It's weird enough. It's like I'm bamboozled by it. And and sometimes it's too much like the when I was talking to you about Kierkegaard the the Fear and Loathing book. I've read halfway through that book. The reason I brought it up is because I'm in it right now, but I can't take it too much. I have to put it down and leave it alone for a minute. I'm like, "Oh, shut the [ __ ] up. Give me a >> Yeah. >> I need can fall it or something. You know what I mean? I It's something else, man. I you know, like you know, like a a bodice ripper or something. I can't do all this. It gets too big. And acid felt like that for me. It's like, "Oh, too much." >> That Yeah, but I think that's what I one of the things I like about you is that you are like openly not even struggling just openly like aware of s- scope. The scope of just like all of these things. >> I know that You know that thing when you And And I've noticed that a lot with comedy has Comedy has this It happened a quite a few times when I was doing the old late night show. It happens a lot when you're messing around with other comedians. >> Mhm. >> That you guys hit something you don't know why it's funny, but it's so f- you're like weeping with laughter over and I mean, I don't even think it's just comedians. I think everyone gets that. But that is magic. >> Yeah. >> You know, or like when you're on stage and you hit something and >> Yep. I don't know where it's come from and it's you know and I remember when Stephen King was on the uh late night show once and I was talking to him. I said, "Have you ever studied the Youngian theory of the collective unconscious?" And he said, "Uh no, I've never heard of that." I was like, "What?" >> Did you ever you know the the red book? Do you have you got a copy of the red book that that you the thing Young wrote this master work of uh like drawings and runic writing and all that? Did you ever see that? >> idea what you're talking about. >> Really? Oh. >> And he said, "No, but I remember when I was he was writing The Shining when he was getting sober." And he said, "I all these ideas were around in my head and all these ideas." And I was like and that's when I asked him about the collective unconscious and he said, "No, I never thought of that." >> Yeah. No, yeah. It's he is it. >> Yeah, I think so, right? I mean, he had Stephen King say nothing of his writing. We were when we were doing Chappelle's show had not aired and we're doing a thing a segment called ask a black dude where Dave just went on the street and said, "Are there any questions you'd like to ask a black person, right?" Stephen King walks out of a restaurant and we're like, "What?" And Dave and he like agrees to do it. I guess he'd seen Dave stand up. >> Mhm. >> And his question was, >> "Do black people want to go to black dentists and do black people want to get buried by black undertakers?" >> And the minute I heard that I was like, "This guy is so [ __ ] intelligent and curious and like the scope of that question in a split second he maybe he'd thought about it before, >> [laughter] >> but that's to me is like one of the most impressive it like speaks to the voluminousness >> I saw it's amazing. I saw him in a documentary once he was talking about some story he was writing. He said, "About his neighbors and stuff like that." And he said, "My neighbor is a doctor and I he thinks I'm a a strange because we were talking one day and I said, "Doctor, how much of a person could a a single person eat of themselves before they died?" >> [laughter] >> He said, "What?" He said, "Well, I had an idea for a story that it was a man trapped on a desert island and there was running water but no source of food and eventually he starts to eat himself." I don't know if he ever wrote the story. I haven't read it. But, you know, he starts with a toe and then a foot and all that and he eat eats himself. I was like, "I don't know how you I don't know how you walk around with that in your head." [laughter] Seems quite uh >> He's a real regular guy? >> I've got a couple of friends like that who write dark dark stuff. >> Yeah. >> And are very upbeat. There's a uh a Scottish crime writer called Denise Mina. She She's a brilliant writer. She's a friend of mine and she writes terribly dark crime novels. She writes a lot of different stuff but crime dark crime novels, murders, and horrible things. And she's the most upbeat lovely cup of tea woman you've ever met in your life. >> Separate It's just office hours. >> people I've ever met people that write romantic comedies. >> Like ro- like Hollywood rom-coms are the dark- In what dark in what way? >> I don't want to give names but but I'm like people who are like, "Man, you are That's uh that's dark in the sense of unhappy. >> Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Cuz they're caught up in trying to get romantic comedies made. >> Yeah, which is >> you know, it was a thing in the '90s. >> Yeah, but >> Everybody had to make them. I like I think it's more healthy now people make horror movies. I think it's better. >> They're cheaper. They're They're actually more believable than >> than romantic >> than rom-coms. >> In many ways, yeah. What they should do is a horror movie where someone meets a killer clown at the top of the Empire State Building. I I said it first. My idea. You pay for the studio. Okay, we'll split it. >> [laughter] >> Oh, you'll let me have it? [ __ ] you. I haven't finished it yet. Wait till you see the treatment. >> Sign on the scene. >> [laughter] >> I'm going to sign this baby over right now. >> I'm telling you. >> God bless. >> They meet a crazy killer clown on top of the Empire State Building. >> Ferguson is he is who we thought he was. >> BUT THEY ARE WHO WE THOUGHT THEY WERE. AND WE LET THEM OFF THE HOOK. >> HE'S A charming guy who can get to the he can go to the he can go to the depths. He's got a scuba suit. He can get deep. But he can do he'll get up do a funny thing with the water when he comes when he surfaces. Right? That's about >> I think yeah, fart jokes and philosophy. >> Yeah. Craig Ferguson. I'm I'm I'm I'm I'm thanks for doing it. >> Yeah, it's a pleasure. I've I've wanted to do this for some time. I I actually I you know in show business when they say I'm a fan of you. >> Yeah, yeah, yeah. >> Uh well I I am a fan of yours. >> Thank you. >> But in the sense of I'm a fan. Like I don't have pictures of you up in my house or anything like that. Or I don't >> Well, then what then what are you? >> Fan is like I I like oh that guy, yeah, good. >> Well, that I mean that's about all we got to offer. >> Yeah, I'm like oh that guy's great. Yeah, what's he saying now? >> Like respect, but yeah. The this is a separate thing. Do you have pictures of your accomplishments up in your house? >> No. >> Isn't that crazy like a thing about that I'm just starting to realize like someone in show business did this >> Yeah. >> and then everybody else was like I guess we're supposed to do this. It's like no, man. You don't have even the well in my office? No. >> No, no, no. I got I had to put we moved house recently and I I got uh some Emmys and a Peabody Award in the cabinet in the guest bathroom. But in the cabinet so that people can't see it. >> Yeah. >> Unless they open it. >> Well, now I thought you were going to get drugs. Where you going to go for my Emmys? [ __ ] you. >> The alarm goes off. >> [laughter] >> Um Craig Ferguson, thank you, buddy. >> [music] >> Thanks, man. >> Everybody wants to have have it all night. >> [music] >> All night. you have to do is open open up your hand. My man. >> [music] >> Mhm.