Couples Therapist: Why Your Brain Turns Your Partner Into An Enemy - Stan Tatkin

Hello friends, I'm bringing a brand new live show across the UK and Ireland this October. It's stories, psychology, audience Q&A's, and whatever happens when thousands of overthinkers voluntarily leave the house and end up in the same room together. I'd love to see you there. The last tour completely sold out, so make sure that you snag tickets now using the link in the description or heading to chriswilliamson.live. Dublin's already sold out, loads of venues are limited. Tickets are very limited, so get yours now. Chriswilliamson.live. You're great. Your work is fantastic. You rule. >> Thank you. Thank you. >> Uh if I was to if I was to try and summarize your worldview on relationships, allow me to step into your skin and wear it for a second. I would summarize it as love by design, not desire. Is that a fair like it's thought, not felt as relationships? That design versus desire thing, how far away am I? >> I I think um I I prefer earned love. Earned love on a daily basis by by knowing how to hack the brain, uh the neuroendocrine system, which we can talk about. By uh by you know, uh designing the relationship uh to protect feelings, uh to enhance feelings, to uh to um uh allow two different people under stress to maintain a collaborative and cooperative attitude. Uh that is a hard get um because that that takes a certain amount of planning, predicting, and planning, and preparing. Uh what what could go wrong between human beings? >> Why are romantic attachment relationships neurochemically so hard to navigate? >> Well, they're hard because in the attachment world, if you uh if you understand or buy the idea of a primary attachment relationship. A primary attachment relationship is one that is is tends to be dyadic with human primates. We pair bond in herds. And the romantic adult primary attachment relationship is most like the earliest one. Which is predicated on survival. So the attachment system is actually an existential you know glue that holds us together. It's the I can't quit you biology. We confuse it for love. And because it goes back to the earliest you know survival relationship that's why breaking up also is hard to do. That's why it has a very long memory cuz it reminds us of that earliest dependency relationship whereas other relationships tend to not do that. >> So we're reliving our childhoods in a way. >> We're we're reliving our relationships how we felt with all these important originals that we were around in this relationship that we call a romantic adult relationship. But it is 12 and before. That is generally how I will think of it is that we have the parents in our heads that we had around 12 and and before that time even if our parents and they do changed a great deal for the better or for the worse we still draw upon the that earliest uh you know because that's the root of our experience through thousands upon thousands of interactions starting from infancy. Most of the people So powerful. >> Is love enough to maintain a relationship? >> Absolutely not. >> [laughter] >> No feeling is cuz feelings come and go and besides who knows what your definition of love is? It may be very different than mine. And even if I were to describe my definition of love in action, my expectations of love may be quite different than what I say. So, there you already have a problem. But, if you're basing your life on emotion, which is like a roller coaster, then your life is like a roller coaster. So, I I think the smartest and the wisest and the way that it's always worked in terms of long-term relationships between individuals of equal power, adults, uh is that uh you have to have first a shared purpose, a reason for being in this relationship, not based on feelings. And a vision of where are we headed? What's the end point? Are we ride or die? Is it all the way till, you know, I'm wiping your butt? Uh you're wiping my butt in old age? Uh you know, what where are we headed? Um and why? What's the point of us? Who or what do we serve? Only purpose that's based on a selfish reason will carry the day because we're too uh unreliable as a species. Um our species is uh notably historically moody and fickle and impulsive and uh unpredictable, sometimes opportunistic, warlike, uh xenophobic, um easily influenced by groups and other people. So, we're we're not great over the long run uh in unions. Therefore, we have to a a account for going through time together, and that would be going through some changes. So, we need an invention, we need a design from the ground up, which is a made-up thing, right? All relationships are made up. That would sustain us in the long run and would account for all of that wiggle room necessary as we change through time, right? Otherwise, uh we're going to you know, we're not going to make it somehow. Um that's issue one. Uh issue two is we have to understand the forces that push us around, namely our survival instinct. Because it's always on and because this relationship is unlike any other on the planet because of its memory, uh most like that earliest one, based on survival. Uh uh it has a long memory and we tend to be proxies for everybody who came before, right? We tend to it's a very projective system. The chances of us accruing threat memory by getting things wrong based on memory and appraisal is 100%. And so if we're not really good at knowing and understanding how to minimize threat and stay collaborative under most stress and pressure, we're going to accrue threat memory, which is a biological matter and eventually takes people down. >> So you're saying we need to respect the biology >> Oh yeah. >> by in advance having structures in place uh and principles that keep guardrails in so that we're not relying on the uh abs and flows of how we feel. >> Like any other any other union of any kind that's professional of any kind, we plan on our devils, not our angels, right? Couples plan on their angels. And that's a big mistake cuz >> What does that mean? >> Um devils we are if the opportunity arises. If we're under enough load bearing, if we're in enough pain or enough pressure, enough stress. Again, emotions. Uh you know, if I'm going to behave according to how I feel, which is pretty much everybody on the planet most likely, then I It stands to reason that we're going to have a hard time getting along, right? And so this this just has to do with predicting what could go wrong and planning for it ahead of time instead of just falling into it, which is what couples always do, right? >> Yeah. >> Couples don't predict, plan, and prepare for what could go wrong based on what has gone wrong. Nobody else does that. Medicine, we do post-mortems, right? We Let's not kill the patient again. Uh and but couples don't do that. They just repeat, repeat. Uh we predict what could go wrong in the police force, in military, in medicine, in science, in business. Couples don't do that. They just walk into the same situations live without being prepared. Uh we would never involve uh get involved with a group of people if we didn't know what the culture was and how are we going to be protected from each other cuz we're animals. Couples don't have any any governance, any way of protecting each other from each other cuz they don't set it up. So couples are the only system, the only voluntary system of free, fair, you know, voluntary system uh of individuals coming together um of equal power and authority, at least on the face of it. It should be on based on terms and conditions that do not have any of this ever. And uh and that is why they're predicted not to last very long or if they do, one or both people are not going to be happy or not going to feel safe and secure. Because there's no social contract uh system of making agreements uh based on purpose, based on what is good so say you both we both right what is best so say we both or what you know is right those are the three and without that it's going to be the wild west >> Does that mean that discussing non-negotiables and practical things in advance and as early as possible is actually the romantic thing to do? >> It's not well I think you don't put that into the hey honey let's go out to dinner and have a nice romantic dinner and everything and let's talk about if we have any deal breakers you could I guess it's not you know it's dual purpose but deal breaker is should be known ahead of time I want a baby I have to have a baby you hate kids and let's get married so that is what people do and that's like not smart because that can't work I want monogamy and you want polyamory well neither of us are wrong we have a right to want what we want and get what we want but we can't do business together because that's going to cause a lot of trouble so those are deal breakers big ticket items that couldn't work because we're pointing in two different directions >> Having a specific shared purpose and vision is still important outside of deal breakers I have to imagine >> So if you look if you look at the human condition and and how people have sustained in groups uh groups don't stay together very long or they don't get along with each other very well if they don't have a shared purpose for being together you and I are going to start a band that's our purpose we want to start a band we want to what what is our goal our vision we want to get a record deal at least initial so if we didn't have that we wouldn't have reason to hang together very much and we would probably not get along because we tend to pick at each other if we don't have a shared purpose. Right? Uh that's if we're, you know, spending a lot of time together. And a shared reason for doing this. Otherwise, we tend to otherize. We tend to pick at each other's differences. We don't uh we don't look naturally to where we agree and where we are the same. People who are consensus makers have to do that. But at the average Joe, because of energy conservation, meaning uh you know, we're meant to do the least amount necessary biologically, all living things, um we're lazy and we won't do things that we should do cuz we don't think we have to. So, uh uh this whole idea of you know, we're in it to win it, uh you know, we're a survival team, uh we want to win, we want to make money, we want to succeed, want to survive, uh um all of these things are essential for keeping things on keeping people on the path together and and not paying attention so much to their differences. Otherwise, we fight. And when it happens in a country such as ours, that's when we see civil war or tribalization or massive amount of splintering, right? Cuz there's no more centralized sense of purpose that holds us together that's believable and uh and a vision, American dream, right? And so, if things break down. Uh so, if that is true with all systems large and small, it goes to follow that a couple would be no different. If they have no shared reason for being at any given time, they're going to fight uh or they'll drift. Because that's what actually holds us together, yeah. >> What's the importance of agreements? >> Uh that's all we've got to keep us from uh being harmful to each other. All we have is our pacts, our agreements, our social contracts. Civilizations predicated on social contracts. The first laws of religion, even though it was a social contract with God, an Old Testament God that would rain in your bedroom 40 days, 40 nights if you disobeyed, you know, that was a powerful thing to get people to start to behave. The first way of getting people to stop harming each other with the 10 Commandments, right? So, everything is predicated on agreements. Otherwise, we we go to war. We do harm. You know, we're like I said, we're selfish, self-centered, opportunistic animals. If we can get away with something, we will. That's that's in our DNA. Only norms and laws and principles and rules keep us from doing that and allows us to stay together in safety and harmony. Otherwise, we wouldn't. No difference with a couple. So, they have to come up with this as well. >> In other news, have you ever noticed how some websites make it ridiculously easy to buy while some feel infinitely harder? >> Back in my day, I had to walk 10 miles to the local store. >> Aren't you younger than me? >> Yeah, but my dad got a DUI. >> Anyway, the reality is most businesses just get the website wrong. And if your setup is messy, you lose a ton of sales, which is why I'm such a massive fan of Shopify. They power 10% of all e-commerce in the United States, including brands like Gymshark, Skims, Alo, and Nutrabolt. Because when it comes to converting browsers into buyers, they are best in class. Their checkout is 36% better on average compared to other platforms. And with Shop Pay, you can boost conversions by 50%. So, upgrade your business and get the exact same checkout that we use at Nutrabolt with Shopify. You can sign up for a free trial period by going to the link in the description below or heading to shopify.com/modernwisdom. That's shopify.com/modernwisdom. Why do we make the fundamental agreement to prioritize each other above everything else at all times? >> You don't have to. You could agree that ourselves come first. Then you'd have to describe that to each other, define that. What does that really mean? Same with a relationship. What does it mean in practical purposes? If this happens, what would we do? If that happens, what would we do? Are there any exceptions to this? What could go wrong with this idea of putting ourselves first? Uh what happens if if this relationship crashes and burns? Um we put ourselves first. What does that uh do for our kids? What does that do for our own health? So does it make sense? Well, maybe we put religion first. That's fine. But you'd have to think it through because you're planning your life because your lives depend on this. How you're going to rule, how you're going to govern, what decisions you're going to make is going to be predicated on what is the highest priority, right? Otherwise, you're not a team. It'll be chaos when load-bearing hits. You're going to, you know, be unprepared. So uh it's all practical, it's all tactical. It it's not about emotion, it's about what would be the best thing and what what one thing must be protected at all costs in order for everything else to thrive. That's how to think of it, right? >> Mhm. >> But it has to be defined, has to be done judiciously because again it's no small thing. Your happiness, safety, and security, everything's predicated on your design. >> What's the threat response based on memory? >> Well, memory is is is a problem. We're memory animals. Everything we do is by memory. Most of our day is memory run. It's automatic. We're not thinking. We're not using energy-expending areas of the brain that use critical thinking. We save that for novelty. We save that for our work. Save that for other things. But so we're just walking through the day doing things automatically reflexively based on memory. The um because of our survival instinct uh negative memory negative experiences favored uh in memory because of we have to remember where we're hurt because of danger. So survival is at the top of our subcortical drive. Right? And it does not uh it does not equivocate. It does not differentiate. Uh you hurt me if you didn't fix it right away and you do it again then I'm going to predict you're going to do it again and again and again which you will feel attacked by. But that is me protecting myself. Uh I'm using pattern recognition to sweep the environment for cues. And every time you you repeat something or we repeat something that's threatening the array of threat cues that I'm looking for increase. Naturally makes sense. It doesn't know the difference between you holding a gun on me and you uh you looking askance uh that I view as a judgment as an attack as a criticism. Right? And so this becomes problematic if we're not careful which is why there are ways to uh to prevent this from taking hold because it does have a snowball effect. >> It does It sounds like it sounds like it sensitizes your system over time. >> Yeah. Has to because we have to survive. Uh this part of our brain is lightning fast. It I see it I shoot it. And that makes sense if you if you're if your life depends on on making a a quick decision and an an an action that protects you uh from a danger it makes sense that this can be a problem relationships. Because I will react very quickly based on my own narrative history memory and I will likely be wrong and you will likely feel threatened by my assuming. Which you will then protect yourself and behave in a way that's threatening in return and therein lies problem with the human condition. Why we're better at war. >> [gasps] >> We're we're just not great at relationships over the long run. So there are ways to remedy this if you know what you're up against. One is quick repair. Quick repair is a way to keep memory from going into long-term memory where it's the gift that keeps on giving. And sadly most people don't fix things quickly. They don't fix things. I'm sorry you're right that was stupid. I shouldn't have done that. I'm sorry. I love you. And then move on, right? Um they delay it. They don't do it. They they apologize in in the wrong way. Uh and and so the beat goes on and this is why families lose their kids. Estrangement. That's why people get sued. That's why in the old days people you know, challenge each other to a duel to the death. You know, because um we remember harm done. We don't forget it. Person who harms us does. But because of the adrenaline that's created created when we feel misunderstood, hurt, judged, something's unfair, unjust. Uh that that creates a lot of juice to go into long-term memory unless you fix it right away which case it doesn't. So that's one of the main reasons to grow up and do what we invented. Uh the reason we invented apologies uh, amends, was to hold on to our relationships. And if you two want to hold on to your relationship with your kid or your your spouse or your parents, then you got to learn how to fall on your sword and only apologize um, without equivocation, without qualification, explanation, uh, without any any other qualifier, if you know what's good for you. Is that in the real world is the only thing that'll relax another person. Yeah, the only thing. And I have to apologize for what you think I did, not what I think I did. >> Mhm. >> Think how hard that is for us cuz we're so prideful. We think that we're always right. And that's not true, by the way. We're hardly ever right by much. And, um, but, you know, it's our arrogance. It's our, you know, hubris to think that our communication was spot-on. I heard you clearly. Um, uh, my memory is great. Uh, my perception is is correct. Yours isn't. And none of this I can prove. None of this is true at any given time. It's all false. And yet, we'll die on that hill unless we're dumb. >> It's so fascinating that intense negative experiences, if repaired quickly, have basically a completely different future ahead of them than ones that are left to fester. That if you're in a relationship which has regular rupture without repair, and especially without repair quickly, that makes it's painful in the moment and more painful in the future and sensitizes your system to detecting this happening again, even perhaps when it's not, which means that your world view is going to appear increasingly deranged to the other person who needs to apologize based on your interpretation, not on their projection. >> Right. >> It's vicious. It's a It's a really badly designed system. >> Well, it's it's not designed, like I said, for Remember, we used to die at at 15 or 30 tops, right? We didn't live that long. We would pair bond for 4 years and then leave and then, you know, mix up the gene pool. That, you know, that satisfied the, you know, the natural the ways of natural laws and and that nature's uh right? Nature didn't plan on us, you know, doing what we do today. We're on our own. Uh that's why we have to invent our meaning. We did We're not born into a world with meaning, right? Clearly. We're not born into a world where we get why we're here and how we got here and where we're going. That's the whole existential dilemma, right? It's the angst. You know, we're going to die, we're alone, uh we don't know uh why we're here, um uh and life has no meaning, right? Uh that's very depressing. So, we create meaning, right? Same thing. But meaning also involves governance. How are we going to protect each other from each other? That is not in by nature, right? We We are predators. We're apex predators as as a matter of fact. Um we're nice on a when we're happy, right? Yeah. But you may not want to be around us if we're unhappy. We're kind of nasty. Unless unless there are norms, you know? Sweetheart, you know, my 14-year-old daughter, uh you can be angry. You cannot walk around and destroy the atmosphere here for everybody who's in the house. That's a community issue. You can't do it. So, stop it. Right? Um only that stops that kind of behavior. Um no, you can't do this. I know you want to do it, but I'll show you you can't. Try. And I will show you you can't. And that uh gives rise to an idea that there are limits, there are boundaries, there are things you can and cannot do. But let's say I don't do that. Let's say I give in, then you can get away with anything. Right? Cuz there is no God. I did that. It doesn't happen naturally. Um you know, Lord of the Flies, you know, we're animals. And the off the the uh the product line, you know, uh human primate isn't great. >> [snorts] [laughter] >> You know, uh you know, civilization uh you know, uh over so many years of uh of you know, building complexity socially, emotionally, and and and um ideals and values and and uh and and morals, principles. That That, you know, in in the whole span of history, of course, it's a blip, but in our time, it's a long period to get here, and we're still a mess. Um and so, you know, again, don't be naive. You are responsible for this relationship. No one else is. You're the only ones who are going to benefit and are also going to suffer if you're not an an alliance, right? If you're not working together, you can't work. If you're not able to work together as a two-person system of we and us interdependently having the same things to gain and lose, are you going to survive this life, really? Uh with all the slings and arrows and all the the things that happen and and the indifference of others, which, you know, just test that out. When the chips are down, people will be indifferent to your concerns. Um and that's just the way it is. Uh and so, not knowing that and preparing is just simply not being aware and not being an adult and and in reality. >> Somewhere along the way, low energy just gets accepted as a part of getting older. Turns out there's a reason for that. 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Plus, they ship internationally and right now you can get that $99 price with an additional 20% off by going to the link in the description below. Heading to timelife.com/modernwisdom using the code modernwisdom at checkout. That's timelife.com/modernwisdom and modernwisdom at checkout. >> I've heard you say that if you leave those memories to encode in long-term for too long, you can end up seeing your partner more as a predator than a lover. >> Yeah, the subcortical brain does not differentiate. >> What's what's happening What's happening neurochemically in and in the brain? >> Well, the there's an intentional center uh um uh the salience network in the brain is what causes me to to look, right? You know, I hear a sound and I look. That's a salience network that's directing me to what's most important at this moment. And there are other networks that are involved here that are fear-related um and threat-related that are involved in this one network. And so, I I begin to hone in on your face because you repeatedly do something that reminds me of something that makes me feel small and devalue, okay? You may not intend to do that, but your intentions aren't the matter here. Um I'm picking up a threat memory a cue from your face because I'm vigilant. Um I've I now have to look for this because I've been hurt too much. >> [clears throat] >> You feel attacked by it, but I'm simply taking care of myself. I don't control this. It is pushing me around. It's because I don't understand it, right? I assume that everything I'm picking up is correct. I don't check. You know, are you are you are you doing that thing right now? >> [clears throat] >> Right? I just I just shoot first uh assuming you are doing it. And that's because these areas don't have an executive function. They're not meant to have an executive function. An executive function takes time and resources. That is why that that, you know, when we're relaxed, we have all oars in the water, we can think, we can error correct, we can we can think in a relativistic way and not in a in in a uh dominant end way, right? I am certain. No, maybe you're right. But I'm relaxed. I can do that. As soon as I blood pressure and heart rate go to a certain level, my brain changes. I literally don't have a capacity to do that because the executive areas uh demand a lot of resources to run, oxygen, glucose, and blood. That is now going to my striated muscles because I'm starting to get into fight or flight. I'm getting hyper-aroused. And there's a brain change. I'm altered. I no longer care about your interests. And it takes very little uh this is uh Robert Sapolsky's uh work not just very little uh glucocorticoids coursing through my veins for me not to give a damn about you. And you lose me as an audience if you're not careful. Um you don't even think it cuz you haven't noticed you've lost me as an audience. Uh I feel unsafe therefore talk to the hand. I care only about my interests and you get nothing. That's how sensitive the system is cuz I've determined I'm not safe on a subcortical level. Now, I may not know this but you will if you pay attention. I will know when you fall into out of safety because I'm watching you if I am. Um and that's why you know, in each other's care is we're psychobiologically wired in close proximity to pick up social emotional cues faster from the other person than we are from our own bodies. >> Mhm. >> That makes it uh that makes us primed for something called interactive regulation or coregulation, right? Um that's another kind of teamwork but it's more autonomic. Anyway, so uh so uh it doesn't you know, this is a very stupid part of us but it's but we'll thank it because we dodged a bullet. Um and and so I have to understand that you and I have to talk to each other in a particular way. Otherwise uh you'll confuse me as an adversary. And this is what's hard about secure functioning. The formula really is I have to take care of myself and you at the same time under stress or you will confuse me for an adversary. And it will compel you to then take care of yourself on Now we're one-person systems. We're no longer in a team sport, we're in a solo sport. >> Does this explain how >> everybody. There are no exceptions to this, by the way. They're all people. >> Mhm. Does this explain how resentment accumulates in relationships, and relationships start to look very deranged from both the outside and the inside? >> Um One of the greatest uh causes of anger, sustained anger, is injustice, right? Uh the other is helplessness. Um uh uh and, you know, right? And so a any any system that's too unfair, too unjust, uh and too insensitive can't last because it's unfair, unless it's an employer, you know, asymmetric relationship where I have to suck it up cuz I want the job and I need the money. But in in a in a equal system that's voluntary, that's voluntary, if it's not fair and just, um and I'm getting the short end of the stick, you should keep your eyes open at night cuz that never ends well uh in the human uh field, right? And so insecure functioning is too unfair. Uh it's good to be king. Um and I get things at your cost, not realizing that we're tied together psychobiologically. Anything I do to you is going to happen to me. There's no decoupling that, unless unless this is an autocracy, unless I am the dictator, in which case I still better keep my eyes open at night. But, you know, then I get to do everything. Um and you have to do it. But that's not the reality of a free and fair union of equals in an adulthood, right? The expectation is that it be fair, whether people say that or not, it is that way. And that's universal. >> How much can you prune those bad memories? How much harder is it to get over that once you've accumulated them? >> You can't get rid of these memories and you don't want to because that'll happen sooner enough. I'm 72 and starting to happen with names, but you don't want to get rid of those memories. Um the only way to change the past is to change the future. There's no other way. These these neuropathways are weighted by repeats, right? We're repeating things. Yeah, and that's the worst. >> Mhm. >> This is the smart thing to do that we already know and couples don't do. One is I will apologize forever for harm done. That is the right and just thing to do. In the real world, that is expected. I don't get a free pass in memory. Right? By saying, "I don't need to apologize. I did my time in prison." That's not ever going to work. Same in couples, right? I'll always apologize for what you feel I did. No problem. But let's put something in place, you and I, to prevent either of us from doing that again. If only we did that. We'd be great. Because we're doing the same thing. We're learning from the past and we're creating a future that is different based on what we learned. Let's not do that again. Not you, not just me, either of us cuz we're human. We could both do this. So, we found a place where we're vulnerable. Let's close that up as we go. But couples don't do that. They just walk right into the same thing again, rinse and repeat, and that is deadly. You do not want repetition. It creates inflammation. Once that repetition start, it accrues. And sadly, I deal with couples that have been together, you know, sometimes 12 years, but you know, often three to 30 years. And they're burdened not only by having to uh look back at all the resentments, but they feel compelled to litigate the past. >> Mhm. >> Just rehearsing the same thing that nothing comes of it. And besides, memory sucks and they're going to fight about memory. I'm I'm there and they're not watching where they're going, so they're repeating. Um I The other thing is that when they do try to work on the relationship, now memory intrudes on the present and puts the kibosh on the future. This is a big problem we're trying to solve. >> How so? How does this happen? >> We you and I have been fighting for years. And and um we both complain of unfairness. Right? And we neither of us trust each other now because we did that. We did that. Um years of doing business poorly. Now we want to right things, right? And we go to, let's say, me or anybody who's pre uh proposing, let's design this thing from the ground up. Um as we're doing this, one of us is going to go, that's not going to you know, you know. Why are you depressed? Because he'll never do this. I already know. And now I'm back because [snorts] subcortically I'm being yelled at. Don't trust him. That won't happen. It's right? Why am I being fatalistic? Because I'm being warned on what has happened. It doesn't It has no interest and I say yeah to this these networks that are subcortical have no interest that we're working on something to improve it. Therefore, what is now causing us a big problem is that neither of us can forget as we're going forward. Going forward triggers the past. The past is always present. That's the problem. Yeah. Past that we created. >> Yeah. >> That it adds a huge neurobiological layer of difficulty. Think of this. Um uh you know, as numbers grow gets more difficult because of memory. Israel and Palestine Palestine. They cannot get out of this loop because there are generations upon generations of memory. Where everybody is getting their justice, right? I want my justice and it's to blow up your family and now you have a reason to get your justice and and there's no getting out of that, right? Because there's too many people with too much memory and there's too many people wanting to get their justice at the cost of somebody else. Well, partners do this, too. I want my justice and now I create a new one at you, right? You could put the kibosh on that. But it is hard because the very same problem is that I feel that something happened to me. There's that itch I need to scratch. I need you to pay. I need I need something to square this. Because there have been too many years of unfairness and sometimes I just have to divorce you. So, I this accruing of memory is central and if people only knew, they could prevent this. Uh because it is human nature. It's not him or her. It's all of us. This is a problem. And if you don't know about it, you're going to do it. >> It feels like prevention is significantly better than an attempt at repair. >> Yes, because you cannot erase the memory. You can only relegate it those neuro pathways to a dirt road cuz they're no longer being used. They're no longer being triggered. Nothing you're doing right now triggers that memory. >> But given that most people live lives of routine, um you were concerned and small amount of justification about why your partner was staying late at work with somebody that you felt uncomfortable about. You learned this lesson and you even do some of the repair. You deal with all the difficulty of going back over it. You do an open and honest completely frank apology. But the next time that your partner stays late at work regardless of what's been done to the past the present and your predictions about the future are now being colored by what happened before. >> Right. Right. Not only is the past always present but the present is changing the past as well. So you and I had a great wedding um but our marriage sucks and 12 years, 13, 15, 20 years down the line, the therapist ask us, "How was your wedding?" And our report is not great. Contrast that with a couple who had the worst had wedding from hell. People were arrested, drugs were found, um looted all gifts were looted all sorts of things happened. This is a true story. But their marriage um was it became a great marriage. They look back on it as funny as amazing. Um the present state of mind changes our memory which is why memory it is completely unreliable, folks. If you're arguing about memory, you're you're engaged in something where you're both wrong. >> Which is why it's so much better to just apologize for however your partner sees it. >> Yeah, you don't lose anything. You gain. You keep your marriage. You keep your your relationship intact. >> Does distance make this harder? Obviously, we're in a a modern world with a lot of people who argue, but they're not together. Um maybe they fight over the phone or text message or email, whatever. Does What does What wrinkles does that add to the rupture and repair conversation? >> I love your questions, Chris. They're great. Um here's the problem. We're We're We're face-to-face eye-to-eye animals. We're legally blind on this side. We have to be dead on to regulate each other because we're visual We have a visual brain. Therefore, we error correct through the visual field. Everything else is messy. So, if we're on the phone, we lose the visual, which means we're only using the auditory. Now, since we're visual, we're visualizing things according to our own state of mind. So, if I'm angry with you, what picture of you in my head do I have at the moment? Probably not great. That colors how you sound. Um so, my error rate in understanding and appraising you, especially if I'm under stress, all of this is about when we're under stress, which is a lot, right? We're only talking about when one of us is under stress, things are going to go wonky if we're not not careful. Under stress, I'm going to hear differently. Because the state of mind that is that is triggered by this by my feeling, by my stress, is connected to memory. And they they operate in a loop. They reinforce each other. The my state of mind alters my perception like a funhouse mirror. And it's stunning. What I see, what I taste, what I hear, what I feel, all of that is altered by my state. Therefore, what could go wrong here? Um I am at a angry state. I am talking in a way my prosody changes that is unfriendly to you. I can't see your face, you can't see my face. Maybe I was smiling. Uh you don't know. Uh now we're going to fight for no reason because we're our error rate is sky high and the more excited we get the worst uh the error rate goes really high, right? And [clears throat] and it's over nothing, right? It's over our brain thinks it's something, it isn't. Um or text. I mean, it's crazy. Uh never do relationship stuff or text. You send your a picture of your goofy face, I love you, emoticons, uh what time's dinner? That's it. No >> That's the limit. That's the upper bound of how much your relationship should be mediated through the phone. >> Yes. I What did we used to do? Well, you used to draw pictures on a cave, but you know, in the old days I'd write you a letter and it would take a month at least to get to you. You could be sure I wrote that thinking very carefully very carefully about what I am saying. It was beautiful letter, right? Yeah, beautiful letter. I didn't need spell check. I had my anxiety knowing that you're going to see this letter and it was going to take about a month, right? I wanted you to get this exactly right. Well, what do we do now? We get in a lot of trouble with our text, with our work, you know, with you know, add to that a little bit of Ambien or a little bit of benzodiazepines or alcohol and everything and we're screwed. So, yeah, we do not understand our limitations. There are things we cannot do and yet we expect things that are not possible. Like you and I under stress can talk about more than one topic without fighting, that's impossible. Or that you and I can talk about an emotional conversation while one of us is driving. That will end badly. It's not possible. Uh you know, there are things that people don't understand that we're limited by. We're smart in so many areas and we're so stupid on a daily basis. And it's funny except we take all of it personally and most of it isn't. Most of it is because we're stupid, automatic, reflexive, memory based, not thinking, not paying attention. Um because we live in a world where our attention is constantly split now. >> In other news, if you're trying to go from Joey Chestnut to Joey Swoll, the RP Strength app is the best place to start. I've been in the gym for 20 years and it wasn't until the past few years that I had the best training sessions of my life and RP was a massive part of that. Actual scientists built this thing around one obsession, to beat up their high school bullies and provide the most science-backed effective path to maximizing muscle gain. It tells you your exercises, how many sets, reps, and weights that you need to do, everything. So all that you have to do is show up and lift. If the RP app could wipe your ass for you, it probably would. And it adjusts automatically every week based on how you're actually progressing. For me, following a proper evidence-based plan has made a massive difference. If you're serious about training, it'll do the same for you, too. Right now, you can get up to $50 off the RP Hypertrophy app by going to the link in the description below or heading to rpstrength.com/modernwisdom and using the code modernwisdom at checkout. That's rpstrength.com/modernwisdom and modernwisdom at checkout. What does I'm thinking about kind of how we discussed at the top this it's like a conversation about compatibility. How much of relationship conflict is just based around incompatibility and and not pointing in the same direction or being specific about what each of you wants to see if you're in agreement in advance. >> Compatibility in my game, in my mind, only is where you and I are pointing in two different directions on the big ticket items, right? I want full transparency. I want us to have you know, we're this is a team sports as I. I want us to work together. I want our left hands and right hands to know the same thing. That keeps us safe. That's what I want best thing and you say not so fast. I don't which you have a right to say. I don't think that's the best idea for me. I don't think it's really good for you, but I'll try to convince you. I think we should have our secrets. I think we should have our privacy. Every right to want that. Now, if you stick to your guns and I can't get you over to my side, you can't get me over to your side in an honest way. I have to really selfishly want what you want or it won't work. And vice versa. Um, we're not we're incompatible. We're we're just we're not wrong, we're just incompatible. Um, that's true incompatibility. Not you have a greater sex drive than I do. Not um, I like tennis and you don't. Not Right? That's not the kind of compatibility that's going to make a difference in life. Cuz every all interests are going to change no matter what. That's not a problem, right? You can create mutual interests. Um, but these things won't work. It's not about healthy, unhealthy, good, bad, right, or wrong. It just can't work. Right? Uh, it's a built-in fight. So, uh, you know, you can't ignore those things. But the attachment system, the I can't quit you biology will make us go let's get married and ignore that deal breaker. >> [laughter] >> It's >> What's You've said it a couple of times, uh, the I can't quit you biology. What is that? >> Attachment is is nature's glue. It keeps us sticky. It keeps us together. And and it feels like love cuz it has loving aspects to it and behaviorally could have it. But let's say you or an I are I'm abusive. I hurt you physically and mentally. Um that glue is likely to keep you in this relationship and you'll justify it in all sorts of ways. Um or because you're financially dependent on me, you'll justify it. Or because your religion says this. Or because you're in a in a culture where divorce is looked down upon. Or whatever it is, you'll come up with or the kids, the kids will suffer that, right? I have all these reasons, but I'm telling you the main reason is the attachment biology. That is uh connected to survival. That feels like death. I'm largely unaware of it. Some people are acutely aware. Right? Depending on their attachment organization. Um but that isn't always there thing for most people. There are outliers, but they are they're different. They don't they they're different. Um they don't attach in the same way. Um and so uh it you know, it it the everything in nature has a feature and a bug. Everything that's feature is a bug. And also in personalities, also I you know, if somebody has massive OCD, that's a feature for a a surgeon. For you know, you want your surgeon to have OCD. You want your surgeon your your pilot to have OC, right? Your accountant to have OC. That's great. You don't want a spouse with OCD necessarily cuz that's a pain in the ass. That's a bug there. So all of this isn't really good or bad. All people are disappointing. All people are pain in the ass. All people are are trouble and a burden. Um what you want is to create a system whereby neither of you can possibly feel unsafe or insecure by design. Neither of you will be unhappy in a relationship by design. You can do that. You can structure things this way. You can't control everything else outside of this, but home I think is as a relationship. Tracy and I, no matter where we go, as long as we're together, I'm fine. And and we've been in some really terrible places. I mean, really terrible places. That's an achievement. >> Mhm. >> Right. You know, that home is where we are. Uh it's going to make me want to cry because when you start to get to this place, the only thing now that's the bug is worrying that you know, you could lose them. You know, not to, you know, affairs, not to divorce, but to death. And and that's really troubling. Although it does make me um appreciate the moment instead of taking it for granted, which is what we should all do cuz we're in denial about that. Your partner could die at any moment. Did you say what you needed to say? Have you really enjoyed that person? Are you really [clears throat] here? Or are you going to regret uh that you, you know, um that's again, nature's forces. Energy conservation is to do the least amount necessary and direct our attention to what we deem important. It's usually something that is not familiar. You are familiar, therefore I don't need to look at you anymore. I don't need to court you or I don't need to I know you anymore. I think I know you. I don't. Um I I I you know, we store a picture of our partners and our children's face in our brain for weeks and months without really looking. I didn't even notice this. That's how lazy we are. And it's not laziness. It's energy conservation. Therefore, we have to build rituals otherwise we would never do anything good for ourselves. We would have to, you know, build things in that are romantic every day that we would do to to fall in love again with each other every day. It just doesn't happen. Uh behavior lags at hell of how we feel. And the and these are the forces we're up against. Um all of us, automation. And we're going to automate each other. Therefore, I think I know you. That's a dangerous proposition. I don't know you. I I don't I can never fully know you. And not only that, you've been on the planet too long. Which is why we used to have pillow talk and shoot the breeze and about our childhood. It's just fun talk. Now I see I see but couples and they know nothing about each other. They're not curious. There's no curiosity. Curiosity is the flame. Curiosity is the dopamine. Curiosity is the strangeness that goes, you know, you're novel even though I think you're familiar. If I look really closely, you're not as familiar as I think. Now you're interesting. But we'd have to look for the novelty in the ordinary. And we're too lazy to do that. >> It's interesting with the I can't quit you thing. I think a lot of people you you you mentioned uh injustice and helplessness. Yes. And uh it's strange that >> And fear and fear make us angry. >> Yeah. Uh with sort of sufficiently disorganized attachment, you can fear and feel injustice and be helplessly stuck inside of a relationship with a person who is both supposedly the self but also the cause of all of these >> Yeah. >> issues of your your psychological maladies. And people will it's another feature and bug scenario where it's a noble thing to sacrifice your needs in place of somebody that you're attached to, but that also can get hijacked to the point where you just continue to grit your teeth as you mentioned a couple that's been together for so long and they haven't enjoyed each other for decades and decades. And they just keep going because >> They can't stop. >> Yeah. Yeah, it's the same addiction. >> There is well, yeah, it there is an addictive component to it. I don't want to mislead your audience because it's not truly that. Um when I when I do something to feel better at the at the cost of doing the right thing. In other words, I feel better, but I just hurt the relationship, the union. I do get a reward for that, right? I feel good, which makes me want to do it again and again. And it is, you know, it is like addiction where I'm going to grab for it because I can't hold and wait. I can't wait, right? I'm going to take it now even though there's downstream bad effects for me, I'm ignoring those. So in that sense, yeah, that's very much like an addiction that is impulsive and and needs to grab impulsively what I need to do despite the fact that it's self-harming. Um so yes, but the system begins to react to itself. And that's really another way to look at it as systemic. And the system is reacting no longer real individuals. They're amplifying each other's negatives by pointing and poking uh their core vulnerabilities. Here's another unfair kind of unkind nature thing. Is that because we pair bond based on some kind of familiarity and recognition? We don't pair bond with strangers that are too strange, right? They have to be familiar enough. Um Um we're both likely to have the bite that fits the other person's wound. Um we're not those people, but we kind of play them on TV. Uh we have the we have the predilection, we have the ability to do those things that remind us of those relationships, which is why it's problematic. It's a memory. Um now, if [clears throat] we didn't know better, I don't know you have this wound. I only see your defense against it, and your defense is really threatening. So, I respond in a threatening way, which consolidates your vulnerability and increases your defense. And right, and makes you certain that I'm a dangerous character. Well, you're doing the same with me. You're have You happen to be poking me in a core vulnerable place. Um and that I can't do anything other than react. Um you don't know this, um because the way I'm responding to you feels threatening, of course. Therefore, you are going to protect yourself from me, and therein lies the problem. We're going to make each other worse, naturally. Cuz you're not paid to sit there and just think about what I'm doing. You're going to take it personally. Now, if you're a therapist, you can't do that, right? I have to sit and I have to sit with my feelings and not you know, not jump up and act out. I have, [clears throat] but I regret that. But, you know, it's you know, we're human. But but we're paid to do otherwise, right? Your partner isn't. And and therefore, we're more likely to make each other worse. Because it's a misunderstanding. You can't know why I'm doing this thing threatening thing and you don't need to know because you're feeling threatened. So, knowledge is power. Understanding how the brain works, understanding how these systems work, understanding your partner inside out, being an expert on your partner, which if your survival mattered to you and you thought about it, you better know how to restore your partner back to uh you know, level thinking and level uh performance because your life does depend on them. They go down, you're in the foxhole together, you're dead. So, you better know the animal you picked and how to how to work with this animal, be an animal whisperer this one. They're not you. And you're going to need them if you are a team. It matters if they go down and you better know how, just the right way, to pick them back up or you you you're this is yeah. Again, what what's the point? So, this is an orientation and couples just not not oriented towards this being a survival team. But it is. You just haven't been tested yet. Life has not thrown you that curve. You're not in Bosnia during that time. Uh you're not in Ukraine and Russia now. You're not in Gaza. Uh or you know, right? Uh the whole different orientation there. They know what's important. It's uh to protect each other, right? Uh we don't. We're asleep. Um that's the denial system cuz it would get in the way if we always had to plan for this. But the planning for this starts with the building blocks of reining each other in and being safe and secure and and predicting and planning and preventing future problems by predicting them ahead of time, that does the same thing. You don't have to build, you know, together a bomb shelter. Uh that's not what I'm talking about. I'm talking about that that the two of you know how to build structure, how to how to reform this to your liking. You just have to know how to do it and practice it. And it has to be predicated on principles that cannot be violated. >> Jared, have you ever considered you might have a drinking problem? >> I don't consider a lot, Chris. >> Well, you drank an entire case of Athletic Brewing Co. last night. >> But they're non-alcoholic. >> And that's not a problem? >> Sorry, man. I kept chugging waiting for the regret to creep in. Never happened. >> Didn't you end up going home with that chick with the lazy eye? >> I didn't seem lazy to me. >> [snorts] >> See, most people, like Jared, don't actually want to change what they drink. They just don't want the next day to be a complete write-off, which is why I'm such a huge fan of Athletic Brewing Co. They make the best NA brews on the planet, so you can still have something cold and tasty just without the usual trade-off. You can find Athletic Brewing Co.'s best-selling lineup at grocery or liquor stores near you, or, best option, get a full variety pack of four flavors shipped direct to your door. Get 15% off your first online order by going to the link in the description below or heading to athleticbrewing.com/modernwisdom using the code modernwisdom at checkout. That's athleticbrewing.com/modernwisdom at modernwisdom at checkout. Near beer terms and conditions apply. Athletic Brewing Company, fit for all times. >> If you could give people, couples, the most important big movers, the most important principles that they should follow to create these secure functioning relationships. That's what everybody wants, right? >> Yes. >> The thing that is the most important, it's going to help us steel ourselves against the woes of the world and the slings and arrows that are going to come from outside of it. What are the things that people should focus on in order to do that? >> On a on a more focused level, I'm going to give you two, see. On focused level, start now. If you do nothing else, uh make sure that you repair to the other person's satisfaction. See their face relax. If they're not relaxed, you're not done yet. Repair, fix, make it right, make amends probably immediately or within 30 minutes. Make that a habit, make that a law, make that what must happen. Otherwise, you're going to die sooner. I guarantee you because of the the cortical steroids you produce in that stress when there's a breach. You're not doing yourself any favors. And [clears throat] you're setting the other person up for and yourself for um long-term damage. And that's you're not going to want that. So, fix fix it right away. I don't care how you do that. If you can do nothing else, you can say to each other, uh you know, I hate you right now, but we're okay. It turns out that the we're okay is is is sufficient to be able to sleep through the night or be able to get through your day cuz I promise you if you don't do that, you're you are not at your optimum performance level. You can't be. Uh you won't be unless you're paying attention. So, you know what's good for yourself. You just settle the existential question that is there when there's a breach in relationship when we fight, will this relationship exist tomorrow? Are we okay? If you can just do that, minimum, you're better than most. And my wife and I have a a rule. We can go to bed angry, but we have to at least touch toes. And that's harder than you might think. But um but that's been practiced and there's an immediate reward for doing the right thing when it's the hardest thing to do. And that is your self-esteem goes right up. Because you know you did the hardest thing, the right thing when it was the hardest thing to do. We're already doing the easiest things. That's what we're already doing, but that's not a good line. A purpose-centered life is decided ahead of time that this is right, best, or good, so say us both. And we're going to we're going to plan to do this for when we actually do not feel like doing it at all. Uh even when I hate you, I still do this beautiful thing. Even when I hate you, I still don't do this destructive thing, right? That's a good life. That's the only thing that's ever been a good life. That is reliable. That earns love. That earns respect as daily we're proving to each other. We stick to our principles. We show each other and when we fail, we fall on our swords, beg for forgiveness, and make it right. Simple. Um and this the other thing is design your relationship. Start with who are you, shared power, shared authority, something other than that. You've got to be explicit and you got to think ahead. Yeah, I'd like you to be in charge. I like it. I Okay. Remember that uh if uh if he's in charge, you don't get the final say on anything. You understand that, right? Unless you build that in somehow. Right? And so >> [clears throat] >> you just have to be adult and a grown-up because yours your individual lives are now your own, not your parents. And this and as a couple, you're on your own. You're the leaders here. There is nobody else. No therapist, right? I'm I'm not going to define your relationship. You have to. It's your gig. You can have it any way you want, and believe me, people have some very strange and novel arrangements, right? Fine. They're great because they fully agree, they've worked it out, no problem. But they it's all explicit. It's never implied. Right? Because if it's implied, I'm going to abuse that that that reality, right? It has to be explicit and agreed upon like a blood oath. Because this is this really is about our lives depend on on adhering to this. We have to have to drink the Kool-Aid and buy into it because we're in we're expected to come through when we least want you, and that's going to happen for sure. >> Awesome. Stan Tatkin, ladies and gentlemen. Stan, I think you're brilliant. I think your work rules. Where should people go to check out everything you do? >> All right. The PACT Institute is the place to go to. t h e p a c t institute.com. If you're a couple, there's a couple area that is devoted to you, workshops and retreats, materials. And then if you're a clinician, that's how this started. Um I we do trainings all over the world, and you can find that information there as well. Oh, and there's a new product called the Win-Win Couple. First time we've done a filming on how to work together collaboratively under stress. And that video is now now available on the website. They go to the PACT site. >> Okay. Stan, I appreciate you. Until next time. >> Chris, you're terrific. I wish every interviewer is like you. >> That's what I wanted to hear. >> All right. Thank you. >> Congratulations. You made it to the end of a podcast episode without dying. Now, here's another one. Go on. >> [music] >> Watch it.