Contemporary Translated Works - Sand Catcher (Introductory Conversation with Barbara Romaine)

Um, welcome everybody to Contemporary Translated Works, uh, a book discussion group that is a partnership between Folio, the Seattle Athan, the Mechanics Institute, and the Center for the Art of Translation. Um, in this discussion group, we delve into contemporary translated works translated into English with the goal of fostering conversation about language, culture, and the art of translation. Um, we have a special treat today. I am especially delighted to welcome Barbara Roma who is the translator of today's selection sand catcher by Palestinian Jordanian author Omar Khalifa. Barbara has been teaching translated literature for 30 years. She received two NEA fellowships in translation one of which supported her work on specters the novel by Egyptian writer Radua Ashure in 2011. Spectre placed second in the sai gobish bianial international international translation competition. Her most recent translation is sand catcher by Palestinian novelist Omar Khalifa. She also translated waiting for the past by Iraqi author Hadia Hussein. Barbara has taught at the in at institutions including the Lenova University, Princeton, UPEN and NYU. She continues to serve as Thesa's review for the master's degree in translation interpretation at NYU. Barbara, welcome to the conversation. Thank you. I just for the record I do I do want to make correction. I have not actually taught at NYU. Um they brought me Yeah. No, that's understandable because I've taught so up and down the eastern seabboard. It's a little crazy. Um, but I was I was recruited help with their uh their masters and you know I I just don't want to I don't want to claim something that isn't mine. I apologize being outdated by it's easy to mix it up. I've got so many institutions on my resume. So Oh, thank you for the correct Okay. So, how can I help? What can I um can I We've We've read this wonderful, funny, hilarious um book that you've generously translated and um I'm just going to go ahead and jump right in. There are a lot of voices in this book. Um but each character is more of an archetype than an individuals. They're named for the roles than their personalities. Um how did that affect your choices as a translation, especially around tone and voice? Well, that's interesting because I guess I wouldn't have said that I thought of them more as archetypes than as characters. I think maybe because uh I know that as when writers only because I've tried to write fiction and largely failed, but I I am sort of aware that you know the the the world that you're writing becomes very real to you and the characters are real people in some sense. So, to the point where if you are faint of heart, as I'm afraid I am, you have a really hard time allowing bad things to those characters, which may be why I've failed as a fiction writer. I don't know. Um, but I understand what you're saying. Um, one choice of course that I had right off the bat was that the four two four of the the the um most uh central characters, the journalists were never given names. They were were most of the characters don't have names but they were particularly hard to designate without if you read the translator's note you saw that I had the difficult choice of working especially with and because adulter and adulterous I don't think so um I mean I we I talked to Omar about how to handle this and you know we tossed around one or two ideas such as just assigning them names because in English it just doesn't work the way it does in Arabic. Um and that was why in the end I went with the decision to use the transliterations and he sort of provisionally okayed that and then it ended up being the permanent decision. So, um, so they they in some sense, I guess, come across as if they were archetypes because of that choice. And it hadn't occurred to me that that might be one effect of it. But, um, it just seemed to me like the the best solution, particularly since many readers wouldn't know would know Arabic, so they would just in a sense sound like Arabic names to them. Um, beyond that, I think it really was for me the the kind of experience of translation that it normally is, which is essentially just an organic act. You know, I proceed as I go along. And I think recently I've been thinking a lot about a comment that was made by Gregory Rabbasa, the translator of Gabriel Garcia Marquez, who was asked one time, I saw this in an article about translation, and was asked one time whether his Spanish was really equal to the job of translating that great author. And he said, "That's the wrong question. The question is, is my English good enough?" And I know what he means. Obviously, you need to have skill in the the original language, the language from which you're translating. Clearly, that's self-evident. But, you know, a fluency an eloquence in your in the language that you are translating into is essential. I agree with him about that. So um that is a priority for me and making the English flow as much as possible was as it always is a priority for me here and that included in and handling the characters and their behavior and so on. I hope that addresses the question. It does. Um can you speak a little bit to the relationship working with the author? I know in one of your previous talks you had described that as the ideal uh translator relationship. Um what is working with the author's voice like? Is it more of a dialogue or a collaboration? Is it more of listening? That's a great question. And in this particular case, I especially love to love to talk about this because Omar is such a sweetheart, you know? I mean, he when he the way he approached me, the way I didn't know him at all, but he sent me a message at my Villanova um when I was still teaching there at my Villanova address um asking if he could send me a PDF of the novel. He didn't even mention that he was looking for a translator. when I asked him, he confirmed it and he said, "But I understand it's a matter of the translator's taste." And that was so modest that, you know, and I it was just such a a kind of a a niceness in that tone that came across. I said, "I want to work with this man. I hope I like the book." And then I did. I loved it. So um but he's been particularly easy to work with because his default setting is essentially how can I help you know and so it was very it was extremely cooperative and I have been fortunate that way in general with the authors I've worked with who were fluent in English as he is and people sometime I can I can later if you like I can address the question of why authors who are fluent in English don't do their own translation um but uh for now you So it it makes it a more collaborative effort. I am not embarrassed to say that I accept help from English-speaking writers of the books I translate because it means that it should mean that the book will come out better. And I so he was able to vet the transitions and to suggest alternate wording in some cases. I mean, I'm assuming since you've read the book, you won't mind my using a four letter, but he didn't want my original translation for I can't remember whether it was, which would be sons of dog, sons of a dog, or haram, which would be sons. It's essentially bastards. I can't remember which the original was. I should have checked on this, but um I think I said sons of or bastards. One or the other. And he said, "No, no, no. It's got to be stronger than that." He's right because the force of that expression in Arabic is is it is what it is but it doesn't come across in the English. So he suggested and that's what we ended up with. So things like that, but also I was conceptually but not entirely verbally familiar with the concept of the 48 Palestinians, which is to say the Palestinians who found themselves caught in the borders of mandate in 1948 when it was when it became official and there, you know, thereby essentially became Israeli citizens whether they liked it or not. Um, and so initially my translation of the passage in which that came up was off and he was able to point that out and that was really good. you know it was it it meant that the translation in the end was more accurate. So when it can take that form when the transit can take that form really is ideal and to one degree and another I have had that with the English speaking authors Radwa for instance now that was the first novel that I translated and he there are two things one is he really trusted me with a big thing by letting me take that on because I was untried almost I I had translated one of his short stories and gotten that published that was kind of the test that I passed. He was an irassable person and I say that with all affection and respect because I really liked him and appreciated him and it was just the way he was and also he had a right to be on me about the way that I was translating his book and he was if he didn't like what he saw he let me know it in no uncertain terms but I think it made for a better book and so um does that address the question? Yes. Um, and actually I was going to follow up with talking a little bit about translators who are bilingual versus those who aren't. So, can you speak a little bit about that? So, the question about um why they don't do their own translation? Yes. Okay. Um I think many for for many it's it's a question of how much work it is to work in the language that is not their first language even though they are very fluent in it you know and Omar um I think was among those who make the decision that for someone who has the fluency in the I have a little bit of an issue with the the term target language but we'll use it for argument sake you know with the target language you know that there's going to be a more eloquent translation resulting from work done by someone who's who is either whose native language it is or who at least grew up speaking it even if it isn't their very first language. Um and I have seen in fact translation I'm not going to cite a name translation done by someone who was an speaker of Arabic and did also and was also very fluent in English and you know but the translation that she did of her own novel was very flawed and there are two things about that one um is that it probably have been better done by someone whose first language was English, although that isn't always a guarantee either. The other thing is I don't know why the copy editors didn't catch those errors because that should be a guard rail, but it isn't always as much of one as it should be. So, I think for many authors, it's it's it's the decision. It's like what Gregory Rabasa said, you know, his own language, you know, his his first language, English, was equal to the job. So, um, I did what you had mentioned a little bit of a moment, but were there other moments where you felt aligned or at odds with the author's vision? And how do you navigate that tension if it does come up? I, you know, I can't remember any specific cases where it has come up. Um, but I guess I would say that in general, you know, there may I think Omar and I may have had a few discussions back and forth about how to uh how to word something. And in some cases he deferred to me and in some cases I deferred to him. But there was such a such a mutually harmonious just congenial relationship between us that it was never difficult. It was just wasn't it wasn't problematic. And with it was so long ago that I really don't remember. But my guess is that I generally deferred to him partly because I was so inexperienced and partly because you know he was the writer and he was good at what he did and he knew English as well. So um in reading your translation and the Arabic version I was surprised at how well the human the humor carries forward which is something that can get lost in translation sometimes. Um, is it because you guys are both very funny or was there a particular um attention that you had to pay to to that process? Uh, two things. Omar's the funny one. I did my best to be faithful to that. Where I missed it, he caught me. And then if we both, you know, if if if there seemed to be more that needed to be done, the editor at Coffee House Press, Jeremy Davies, my hats off to him. He was amazing. He overedited. Jeremy did. And he says out upfront that he does that. And he said, "Feel free to tell me to take a hike." He was so good. But he was often right about, you know, capturing the spirit of something that was meant to be humorous or pointed or I mean, he was really good about that. So, we had an excellent three-way collaboration going between the the input that Omar had and and Jeremy Davies as well, who was really on the case. So that's it's really impressive because it the book deals with such a heavy subject which is you know the NECBA and the Palestinian cause but at the same time there are a lot of um cultural references and world views. Um did you feel like a lot of those needed contextualizations for the English reader specifically things like the uh Jordanian Palestinian tension? That's a good question. Um, I think there was a discussion about whether or not to put an introduction or an afterward in this book. And Omar in the end he he toyed with the idea, but and and Jeremy was open to it, but Omar in the end decided not. And the reason for that was that he really wants readers to come to a work with essentially tabulas. doesn't want to create any sort of preconceived notions even with the risk that people will misunderstand something or interpret something differently from the way he intended it because he's a literature teacher and he's got the right I think that's the right principle to operate on. It's it should be open for discussion even if there's going to be conflict or disagreement. But as far as the Jordanian Palestinian, that was the kind of thing that might have been addressed in a forward or or an afterward. Um, and it's one of the things that I might have liked to address, but it's also something that people can chase down, especially with the internet. Um, and in discussions like this one, of course. Um, I do have a couple more questions, but I I want to open it to the audience a little bit. So, if you do have any questions for Barbara, please feel free to drop them in the chat and I'll make sure that we get to them. Um, my next question was specifically for English readers uh of your translation. Is there anything that you want them to pay specific attention to? Um, any questions they should ponder as they read Satcher? Um, so you mean angophone readers who may not have a lot of familiarity with the region or with Arabic, with the region, with some of the more nuances of the of the conflict and um just the geopolitical landscape in general. Uh let's see. I think the central theme is the nekbar you know so it's important to read the glossery you know people who are are not you know who come with relatively limited or virtually no familiarity with the region or the language need to check the glossery um and then you know need to be prepared to explore their own understanding of what that term means and I'm not going to go into too much detail about this because I don't think Omar would want me to. But that is something that he wants people to think about and he wants them to question to the comment I mean sorry the concept of that as it has been commonly held for so long. So, so things like that, you know, the notion of the hijab, there's a certain there's some gender politics in this book and that was one of the things that I loved about it in fact, you know, is that you've got these conversations between two women, for instance, one of whom is Muajab, she wears the hijab and the other of whom is not. And, you know, each of them is sort of, you know, defensive of her own position in one way or another. And, you know, to one degree or another either is or pretends to be open to the other point of view, things like that, you know. So the idea really is to go in with an open mind, but that's always the case with literature, I would hope. So um we have a question from the audience from Anna. Um she wanted to know a little bit about the title of the book. How was it chosen and is it a direct translation of the original and any other thoughts you can share about the title and its meaning? I have not had a conversation with Omar about that, but there was a review that was written in the Arabic edition of the Independent that suggested that that the Sand Catcher is an illusion to futility. You know, that's sort of a metaphor for futility. I have never asked Omar for confirmation or reputation of that, partly because I don't think he would take a position on it. So that's sort of like the rest of the book is to some extent open to interpretation. Um and I don't know how he chose it. Um there may be something in Arab thought that I'm not aware of that has you know for which that term has significance but the the idea that it was an illusion to futility did seem plausible to me which was what the reviewer came up with and he didn't Walmart at any rate never refuted that in my hearing. So, um, Casey asks if you have a sense of how the book was received in the original Arabic before being translated. It got some mixed reactions. I think I gathered from what Omar has told me that it offended some Palestinians who didn't feel that humor should be deployed necessarily in the way I'm interpolating a little bit but I believe they you know they felt that the the humor was maybe out of place or not which doesn't really make sense because there certainly had satire Palestinian satire before this habibi for instance the optimist and there but maybe because of the particular place where where the history of Palestine was at the time the book came out. I'm not sure but you know he expected to offend some people that in fact happened and maybe that was the case but I think I think on balance it got a strong you know a positive response but it wasn't entirely unmixed. Um if there are any other questions please drop them in the chat. Um I do have one more question for you. Um there's a character in the book translator and her role is sort of a um a mediator and somebody that moves between not just languages but cultures and has that burden of trying to capture and relay collective memory. Um how how does your role as a translator work in that and can did you feel any sort of kinship to the character? Um, I guess I didn't feel a very particular kinship to Mutarima herself because the emphasis was less on her role as a translator than it was as on her role within this matrix of these four journalists who find themselves up against this terrible dilemma. Um, but as as a translator of Arabic literature, I I want to say this without seeming as if I'm trying to sound grandiose, but I I would like to feel that I'm serving a community in some way. You know, literary translation is not unless you become sort of a rock star, which is not I've never expected to become, but you know, it's not a strongly remunerative activity, and I've never minded about that. I had other sources of income and I you know I really wanted to do this as kind of not just a service to the profession but also a service to that community. That's that is a a significant part of what I consider my role as a translator particularly of this language to be um you might be interested to know you're actually kind of a rock star. Um ago, thank you. A couple of weeks ago, we hosted um Sawad Hussein at Folio here in Seattle and um this this conversation came up and everybody was excited to meet you and then disappointed that I was going to be on Zoom. How sweet. Rockstar following. Um when Sat was she talked about translation as an act of resistance. Um can you a little bit about that in your work especially in a language like Arabic that can be uh culturally politically loaded? Um yeah I I I have always hoped that it could be that for me to some extent you know and to a certain extent much of Arabic literature contemporary Arabic literature is in itself a form of resistance and I will say that I had for years wanted in particular to translate a Palestinian novel. So when Armar came along with Sand Catcher, it was this gift, you know, because I do that that yes, I I I I I see writing as as conceivably an act of resistance and translating as part and parcel with that to the extent that it comes into play. So yes, um in one of your interviews you had talked about discussing the translation of the last chapter with your husband. Um, in Arabic it was two words, in English it's three words. And um, there was a little bit of a discussion about what would be the best way to translate that. Can you tell us this anecdote a little bit and maybe share um, why you landed on on the current translation? Uh, the two words and the three words. Oh my goodness, I don't remember this. Palestine is lost and uh, in Arabic it was. So, um there was some conflict about whether or not this was um powerful enough. My husband is a native speaker of Arabic and I'm trying to remember. Oh my goodness. I'm trying to remember how this conversation went. If I remember correctly, I think he didn't feel he wanted you to side with him or with his version of the translation and you hadn't settled on it. Um, in the final or in the current translation, what you landed on was that Palestine was lost. Um, and I think initially you weren't sure if that was going to be the most impactful considering how concise it is. Yeah. Yeah, if there was any discussion between me and any other person whether it was my husband or someone else, it really had ultimately the but the final arbiter was was you know and that particular translation Palestine was lost suited him and and I think it I think it does have sufficient impact you know Palestine was lost there is a huge um loss is enormous you know and I I don't know something that I read not too long ago. Um maybe it was Katherine Schul I think it was Katherine Schulz. If you read the New Yorker you may have seen her article when things go missing. It was in 2017 I think it was in the wake of her father's death and maybe that was where the this comparison came in that the sort of the the the correspondence between death and loss. you know we say we lost someone meaning someone died and that it that that is very powerful. So my own feeling about Palestine was lost is that it is a strong statement and it suffices to get the point across particularly since it gets repeated in the way that it does in this novel. I also felt that it really echoed the sense of loss for our our characters as well because just as Palestine was lost, they too have lost everything in that process. Yes, that's a good point. Absolutely. Yeah. Um so this is it for all of my questions. If anybody else has any questions for Barbara, please go ahead and drop them in the chat. Um otherwise uh we can jump to the discussion and Barbara you are free any I can stay I assume you are absolutely you are more than welcome to stay for the discussion thank you so any other questions I'm happy to try to address them I dropped the ball a little bit on this one I can't believe I I can just ask a question um so I I presume that you first read this work before the um horrendous year that we we've just experienced through not only the news but yeah through movements. Yeah. How how has the reading of the book shifted since this year has this descended upon us the that's this was something that we wondered. Yes. I I first read it in 2021 and Omar and I I think were both a little apprehensive of what the reviews might say when they came out of the translation. He was he was certainly thrown off, you know, when he was I mean when it when he realized when we realized that this you know this translation was going to be coming of of this this terrible tragedy. Um, so it was really for me in particular, maybe well not for me in particular, for both of us, it was a relief to see that the initial reviews of the Boston Globe, The Atlantic were really strong. The Atlantic had a huge spoiler in