Conservation Commission Meeting - August 20, 2026

[music] Good evening everybody. My name is David Morgan. I'm Arlington's environmental planner and conservation agent. the August 20th, 2026 public meeting of the Conservation Commission to conduct in remote format consistent with [clears throat] with state legislation that extends remote participation in public meetings till June 30th of 2027. This meeting is being recorded and the recording may be made publicly available. I'm going to link in the chat now to where you can find all of the meeting materials. Please note that the Zoom chat feature may be used for questions and comments that contribute to the commission's procedures and if it's used otherwise may be disabled at the chair's discretion. Public comment period follows each hearing. I believe we're just continuing the one hearing for the uh agenda tonight. And so skipping ahead, I'll just turn it over to Chuck Terrone, our uh commission chair, who will facilitate and uh take attendance and review the agenda. >> Sure. Um I think I'll uh leave the agenda first. So it's um August 20th. It's uh 7:03 and we'll start out with uh reviewing the minutes of July 23rd. Then we'll have a uh Hills Pond stocking stalking report and assessment by Laura Keiesel and she has a slideshow uh for us and look forward to that and then we'll go through our um committee updates and administrator's report if there is one tonight and then we're going to have a vote and talk about an enforcement order at 103 Thornike And I just wanted to let everyone know that the Zero Reed Street um notice of intent, [clears throat] we found out uh within the last hour that they would uh be continuing to September 3rd. So, we will um be continuing that uh when that uh time slot comes up. It's number 10 on our list tonight. So, we won't be talking uh anything of substance about that meeting. We'll just be continuing it and possibly talking about a site visit, but that's all that we will or I will allow to uh for discussion on Zero Reed Street. So, with that, I'm going to turn to uh attendance and I'm going to start with Susan Chapnik >> here >> and Nathaniel Stevens and I don't think Nathaniel's here and Mike Gildersgame >> present. >> And David Kaplan >> here. David White >> here. >> Brian McBride and Chuck Terrone is here. So, our associate members are Eileen Coleman and Sarah Alfro Franco. So, I know Sarah let us know that she wasn't going to be here tonight. Um, so we do have uh so we can continue with our meeting. So, first on tonight's agenda is the review of the July 23rd um 2026 meeting minutes and thanks Jackie for taking these. And then was Susan, was it you who was the reviewer first? >> Yes. >> All right. Thank you as well. I saw um David White had a couple of quick edits in here as well. So, I [clears throat] don't believe anybody else contributed to the editing this time around. Just walk through it. Um David added clarification about the eroding banks at Spy Pond to the water bodies update. >> The location into the usual updates including um brief administrators report where David added that he's got conservation commission property signage that he brought to the office recently. Um this was the start of the zero read street conversation. I believe we also talked 91 Sunnyside and was that one boarded? Yes, that this is the meeting we closed and issued. 26 Dudley, same thing. We went into executive session to approve those minutes and there was just the brief mention of new business including uh Laura's request to talk about the topic she will talk about tonight. We're done by 8:45. >> Any comments or motions? A move to approve. >> David moves a second. >> Second. >> Second. Mike kill this game. Susan Chapnik. >> Yes. >> David Kaplan. >> Yes. >> Bri Brian's not here, right? >> Brian's here. His audience. Sorry. Should have looked up. Brian McBride. >> Can't hear you, Brian. I saw a thumbs up. Okay, great. Um, Mike Gildes game. >> Yes. >> And yeah, Mike Gild and Susan Chapnik. Yeah, I don't have that. Okay. >> And Susan says yes. >> I said I thought I said yes at the beginning, but maybe I didn't. Yep. >> I miss somebody. Who did I miss? >> David. >> Did you get David White? You got David White. Yeah. >> Me, Dave Kaplan. My guildest game. >> Brian gave a thumbs up. And you. >> I think we're all good. Okay. >> We're missing Nathaniel. >> I think it was Brian's uh microphone that messed me up. So, >> well, there he is. >> Okay. Well, there you go. Okay. Now, probably be better on the next one. >> Okay. So that passed and we're going to move on to our next thing which is um so I want to bring up Laura Keiesel and uh she's going to um talk to the commission tonight about uh Hills Pond uh this stocking report and assessment. Uh so Laura, introduce yourself for the record and um take it away. >> Hi. So um I'm Laura Keiesel. Uh I run Save Arlington Wildlife. I did uh have a brief slide deck. So I don't know if I can either try to share my screen or I did share the the link. I So I can try to share I think here. I'll try. >> Um doesn't it only says I Well, it does say I can share my Google Drive. I don't know if that >> Can you guys see that? >> No, not yet. No. >> Okay. So, when I did share screen, it just said I could share my my um Google Drive, but it didn't say computer. So, um I don't know if it's going to work. >> Did that slide deck get to David or to Jackie? >> Yeah, I did I did send it to David if he has it and wants to call it up. I don't know why it's only Google Drive, but it's not letting me share my desktop or my computer. >> All right. Bear with me. It'll take a second to open, but it >> And also, while we're doing that, um, Jackie, maybe you could find the report that Laura recently sent and put it in the chat since it wasn't on the >> materials. That would be great. If you can't, I could I could probably do it. I could find it. And I can also just start talking while David is bringing that up so it's not, you know, >> Yeah, sure. Let's uh let's fill in some of this time with some talk. Appreciate that. >> So, um you know, I realized at one point that the fishing app fish brain that Susan actually had referred us to, I think in January or late fall, had a lot of information, like crowdsource information about fishing, like what fish are there, what their sizes are. um as well as just basically almost every other pond in the area. Um and I know that this is a wellutilized app for scientific purposes like the US Fish and Wildlife Service has coordinated with them to crowdsource their data to use it. Um I think Noah has you know there there's been several other peer-reviewed studies so that have used crowdsource data from these fishing apps. Um and Fishbrain is the most popular and used one. So, I decided to just sort of look at the data about Hills Pond and then sort of cross like compare it with a few other ponds in the area um as well as just quickly um in like a snapshot way. I also looked at it compared to the reservoir or spy pond. So, um yeah, if you could go back to the I think the fir was that is this the first slide or the second one? >> The first slide. >> Okay. >> So, um so I did that. I just started um you know grabbing the data in terms of like the whole aggregate fishing how how many fishing hits it had. It's about a decade old the app. So this is over a decade um versus other places and what the fish sizes were how that um measured up to like the state metrics of what state averages are or are considered healthy. Um and from there you know kind of came to some conclusions. So, first I wanted to get some information about the restoration project for Hills Pond in in the 90s because I feel like that was the baseline to start with, you know, so in 1995 there was this big restoration project where the pond was drained and dredged and refilled. Um, and I really struggled to find this data. Uh, finally a a historian library uh a historian librarian at the Robins helped me find it like the the actual like reports um from that restoration project. So in autumn of 1995, Hills Pond was restocked um with golden shiners, sunfish, both pumpkin seed and bluegill and yellow perch. What I found really interesting is right away the report acknowledged that that that kind of dynamic of fisheries was not ideal for algae and that if they did not like add some more like largemouth bass or something soon that it was going to boost like algae boom production and and be problematic. Um and so there were plans to um follow up and I'm sorry there are typos in this. I just did this quickly like um yesterday. Um, there were plans to add largemouth bass the like within a year. I do not know why they did it. The report didn't explain why they didn't do largemouth bass at the time to try to help balance the ecosystem a little better. Um, so that algae production could be discouraged, but for some reason it didn't occur. Um, and then there was an illegal introduction by anglers of um, both largemouth ba bass and black crappie. Um, but it's not clear when that happened. It just I couldn't find anything if there were any other stocking events. So, the assumption is there's not. And then just in the 2002 to 2007 open space and recreation plan for the town, it said that there had been an illegal introductions um at several points of largemouth bass and black crappie. It also said in the same sentence or two, but it didn't say if it was necessarily correlating them, that there was like an explosion of aquatic weeds. Um though I do think there probably was some kind of correlation, but it did mention that in like the same section right away afterwards. Uh another thing I just want to mention, this is fast forward to more recently when I was just trying to think of any other like um notable events, and I know I asked about this a few months back in 2021. There was a fish kill reported on Facebook of 15 dead fish at the pond. Um I know that it wasn't related. I think like algae blooms were ruled out. There was no recent chemical treatments. I think someone from the water bodies working group collected and disposed of the fish, but they were not identified by species. Um, from what I've read, the protocol is if there's a fish kill of that size for a pond that small, usually it should be reported to the state like environmental police or mass wildlife so that they can kind of like test them and see what's happening because it could be a number of issues unless it was a lot of catch and releaseleas fishing or it could have been a pathogen or it could have been like I don't know acidity issues but it's would be good to gauge when there's a kill that big reported um for a pond that small. So, next slide, please. Is Is it not go okay there? Um, so like I said, I I looked at Fishbrain. I compared it to a few other ponds of similar size in the Boston metro area. Warts Pond, Blair Pond, and Old Rez. Um, just because they were the closest in size that I could find. Um, two of those three are man-made as well. Um, and I looked at basically like how diverse they were in terms of their fisheries. And then I looked at the size and weight of the fish. And I I focused mostly on the largemouth bass because they're considered an indicator species. They're usually the most prominent in every pond I looked at. Um, and then the last thing I kind of looked at was like the angler handling techniques and the photos themselves at Hills Pond and what that might indicate for like the fisheries health or the likelihood of like mortality for the fish post release. Um, next slide please. Um, so the one thing I noticed right off and these, you know, I did a snapshot of these ponds, but I did just also quickly look at a lot of other ponds is Hills Pond has very intensive angling pressure more than any other pond that I've seen. Um, and I remember when Susan forwarded the I think it was the person from Cambridge who who mentioned Fishb Brain, they were also quite surprised at how much fishing hits that Hills Pond has. I think it's that it was like 371. Um, and just like for comparison, it's only double digits at like Blair and um, Wards Pond, even though those are also in the Boston metro area. The only other place that came close was Old Rez, I think had 364 hits, though it is almost double the acreage. So that's distributed, you know, across a wider swath of area. But just to kind of give you a visual about how that breaks down in terms of the angling pressure per acre because it's such a tiny pond means it's really concentrated. Whereas you know in like larger ponds like even like spy pond and the reservoir which I also looked at just in terms of this um even though they're bigger ponds and they have much bigger aggregate catches they're distributed across such a wider swath of area that the angling pressure is more distributed. So it's not so intensive. Um but it's like you know I think it was the 142 catches per acre which is just extremely high. Um next slide please. You know, the other thing I looked at is how many fish are in the waters of the, you know, compare comparing them. And I could only really find three viable species at Hills Pond, which is really low diversity, and that is the largemouth ba bass, the black crappie, which were was illegally introduced, um, and bluegill sunfish. I'm guessing there are shiners in there, but there were no um, catches of them. But those are the only ones that were that had any viability like anything more than one hit. Um whereas all the other ponds had usually five six species. So they were doing a little bit better. Um and when I mean viable I mean there were like numerous catches. Um but some of the others also had one or two of other things whereas hills really didn't. So if you also look at just that other graph where I plugged it in to look at different species in terms of like abundance there's just a lot more diversity. And and again, some of these ponds like Blair and Wards are also pretty tiny. So, it's not just about this being a small pond. Next slide, please. Um, and this is actually from Fishbrain itself. These are the screenshots I took of the largemouth bass so you can see it. Um, and I'll go into like the comparisons, but you know, this struck me as one of the most profound takeaways is the largemouth bass, um, which are again the primary indicator species that a lot of like fisheries papers that I looked at look at like they're very stunted like in terms of like just length and they're also really underweight. So, um, you know, the state average is cons is like over 15 in, but it's like the average catch was like under 11, like 10.8. 8 in at Hills Pond. Um, and you know, it's over 2 lb for the state average in terms of weight, but um, it's under a pound at Hills Pond. So, they're they're pretty small and stunted. And there also is a part of Fish Brain where there are reviews. And I will say it's not a lot of reviews, like five or six, but they all were like saying, "Wow, the fish are so small here. The the bass are so small here." So, I know that even the people there were making note of how tiny the fish were. Um, and just so you know, I think you can't even take harvest of fish. I mean, this is catch and release, but even it would be illegal to actually take um fish that size, like bass that are 10 in out because it's considered like they're they're not growing to a healthy rate and it would be considered illegal to take them out, I think, under 12 in. Um so that was what I noticed as one of the biggest like most prominent kind of red flags. Next slide please. Um and you know again compared to all the other both the state averages but even these other ponds like it's not fairing as well. So all of the ponds are kind of under the state average which you know again you could argue it's because they're small and they're stressed and they're in urban areas but again they're doing better than hills. Um and Hills is just, you know, especially with weight is way under even how the a lot of these other ponds are are performing um in terms of their largemouth bass size. Um let next slide please. Um the other thing that was notable, the pumpkin sun pumpkin seed sunfish and yellow perch seem to be functionally if not completely extinct. Again, they were both stocked in the '9s, so not that long ago. And there was not a single catch logged for pumpkin sunfish. And there was only one in a decade for yellow perch. And that was actually this summer, which was strange to me. And I almost wondered if it was an illegally transferred perch because again, sometimes anglers will take fish from other waters, which is not legal, and put them in so that they can catch them. Um, so I but that was the only perch in a decade this summer that has been caught there. And so they they don't seem to really exist at the pond anymore. Pumpkin seed sunfish are a lot more environmentally sensitive than bluegills. They need cleaner water. So that makes a lot of sense too if they've been wiped out. They also could have hybridized with the bluegills. Um and the bluegills have the more dominant genes. They're if they're more dominant species that now it's just some um bluegill sun pumpkin seed hybrid in the pond that mostly looks like a bluegill and is logged as that. Um, the black crappie are they were the they were the average size, so they seemed a healthy length, but they were underweight for their size. And the thing about the black crappie are they they're known especially if they're not reaching their like ideal weight instead of like consuming larger like fish. They'll be consuming like smaller zoo zup plankton species. And the problem with that is that those species keep algae in check. So if there's this like disproportion in the fisheries, it can actually make algae outbreaks more likely. Conversely, the bluegill were too big. Like they were bigger than the average that you usually find in healthier fisheries. And you know, I don't know exactly what the reason is, but you know, when I looked it up, like different reasons. It seemed that probably it's because ju there aren't a lot of juveniles. And that could conversely also be a problem. It just means that there aren't a lot of juveniles that are surviving. So, the ones that are there are the ones that have already survived to adulthood and are managing to like be too big for say the bass or the crappie to eat. Um, you know, so and this can have ripple effects. You know, um I'm p pontificating a little bit here, but you know, scarcity of sunfish in the pond can mean there's a lack of certain birds like king fishers that won't visit because that's what they'll eat are those smaller sunfish or um shiners. Conversely, a scarcity of herand and we've had two great blue heron deaths at the pond. They're the one of the few birds that can take on bass um and they could help kind of trim down the stunted bass and help make a healthy fishery. Um, again, I'm kind of new at some of this stuff. I was not a fisheries person in in undergrad, but I was looking up like what is considered like the optimal proportion of a fisheries in a certain pond. And there's like this thing called proportional stock density where it's like 20% to 40% of the bluegill have to be this what's considered the average healthy size for that state and 40 to 60% of the bass. Um, but right now the bass are too stunted and the bluegill are too big. So they're not actually reaching that indicator according to that metric. Um, next slide please. And so after I did that, I also just was interested in looking at the catches themselves. So I started scraping a lot of the photos. Um, even though there's 371 catches log, not all of them have photos. So when I noticed there started to be redundancies, I stopped. I think at 54 photos that I scraped. Um, but what I noticed was a lot of the catches, well, first I was really struck by the fact that um, almost universally these are minor children that are fishing. And I will say just even looking at the other ponds, Spy Pond, Arlington Reservoir, but also like these other smaller ponds and just other ones on the app, there's more age diversity, but here it really is all kids. I think I only saw like one adult in all of these, maybe maybe two. Um, and there's just a lot of like you see the way the fish are being handled that it's not they're either dead or dying in these photos. This is not how usually like you'd handle them. If you want to release them and they'll live like that first photo that that fish has gut hooked. It went right through its gut. That the kid has a clamp which I heard is to sometimes be able to hold them for extended periods without the hook. But if they're out of the water that long, they're going to die if they've already been hooked. um that third photo the I I don't know if you can see it because it cut off but the the person was holding the fish like this so their spine was doing that and in the comments someone even said like you're going to snap the fish's spine and there are a lot of photos like the last one which is the fish on the gravel or on the ground which is really usually strips their slime coat means they're more susceptible to infections that you know that they can potentially pass on to other fish. Overall about 60% of the photos I scraped um when I plugged it into different software were saying that it was like high likelihood of mortality for these fish postrelease. Um next next slide please. So you know just this is just like sort of a preliminary analysis I looked at with crowd sourcing but of course crowd sourcing has a lot of biases um or blind spots that it can miss. Obviously, people are logging their um you know, their successful catches. They there could be a lot of misidentification of the species. I also want to mention there were a handful of smallmouth bass recorded, just five. And there's never been smallmouth bass stocked there, but also smallmouth bass usually can't survive in the kind of water that Hills Pond has. So, I really just think those were very stunted largemouth bass. Um, so what I would like to do as a citizen science project in the fall, probably late September or early half of October, is do something called DNA analysis or metabarcoding, which is where you take some um two or three water samples. You send it in to an accredited lab and just from that water they can do a comprehensive like tally of all the species that h are living or have existed in the pond over I think it's a three-month period leading up to that point. Right now I know the at least the one lab I'm in conversation with they have a kit where it's fish, reptiles and amphibians. They do think within the next few weeks or a month they will also be able to have one for like macro invertebrates. So like um you know insect larvae. Um, so I wanted to do that. Um, and the other thing I was thinking of doing is just some underwater camera trapping where you take like a underwater camera, like a GoPro type camera on like an extensive pole and you walk around taking some film. And I might also just try to do a pulley weight where I put them under the camera in certain set points for like an hour a day for a couple of days and then watch the footage and see if I see any species there that are not recorded from the crowdsource analysis. anything if I'm noticing anything else interesting like are am I seeing a lot of hook injuries or like hooks in the mouths of these fish which also I do want to mention I saw several photos that I scraped where the person was like I couldn't get the hook out of the fish before I returned it to the water um and also if we see any like fishing waste debris like fishing gear debris under the surface of the water because right now you know all of the cleaning is happening above the surface surface but I suspect fact, there's a lot under the water as well. Um, I was also thinking of potentially doing like some dip netting for insect larvae, but I'm not really as interested in that because, well, one, I'm not very I'm not an entomologist. I don't really know it that well, but also if we're able to do it through DNA analysis, I'd rather do like the lower impact like handsoff version. The other thing I'd like to do at one point following up maybe the camera survey as a cleanup um of the water itself if possible where we do magnet fishing and try to see if we can get hooks and and anything that's attached to it like the line um and actually do it put it on a digital scale and see how much we can find. Of course, a lot of times like line disintegrates in the water, but I still have a a suspicion that there's a lot because even just at Spy Pond a few days ago, I spent an hour just getting like line out of the water that was just entangled around branches and vegetation. Um, so that's that's it in a nutshell. If people have any questions or thoughts. >> Yeah. So, uh, um, commissioners, if you have any, just raise your hand. And, um, yeah, Mike might Mike Gild this game. >> Yeah, Laura, thank you. That was very informative and a lot of good work and good data. I guess my question is based on what you've seen so far and what you anticipate, what do you propose next for Hills Bond? What do you propose to >> Oh, I mean, I don't know. I mean, I honestly still feel like there should be some kind of pause or moratorum on the fishing. And I just don't know if the town is going to be open to that, but it does feel like there's, you know, just from the data, there's obviously Hills gets a disproportionate amount of angling pressure. And at least from the crowd sourcing, it does seem like it has stunted fishery, a bottlenecked fishery that I would at least partially attribute to that angling pressure. of course compounded with the other issues like the um algae outbreaks you know droughts all those other kind of issues if not that I mean I don't know more cleanups more supervision encouraging more supervision of ch children fishing or encouraging other types of activities on the ponds if we can actually get to a pause >> I see um if you're done Mike um I see that Brian McBry has his hand up. >> Yeah. I just wanted to thank Laura as well. This saying great work at low cost. Well, for us, thank you for your personal uh investment of energy and time though. Really great. Yeah. I don't know. I I just find it disturbing. You know, this is a a stressed habitat. Um we've got young and amateur uh fisher people trying to have fun, but >> yeah, >> seeming to harm the creatures in this habitat. So, I think that's a serious situation, you know, and I I wish we I the laws may hamstring us here and there, but my personal opinion is this isn't a good situation. You know, this isn't something we I endorse as a way to interact with the habitat. It seems cruel to have people who are not properly trained to to engage with fish this way and to to harm them and throw them back in the water. So, that's just my personal opinion. So, I'm gonna move on to David Morgan. Thanks, Brian. >> I'm really intrigued, [clears throat] Laura, by the evidence you collected around the populations of fish that eat the zop plankton and exacerbate what's already a bad problem with algae >> in its pond. And I think that deserves more research. We spend a lot of money, a lot of effort, a lot of interdep departmental coordination to address that problem and it's something that leads to people not being able to use the pond as much. So I mean the more we can flush out that I don't know strand of thought um would be really helpful I think and I think that the health department might be interested in a more holistic approach. I I'm [clears throat] I'm sure that the water bodies working group would be who is the one calling the shots on when we treat and so forth, but um I I think there are others in town, other town staff, I mean that could benefit from that info. So, thank you for pointing to it. It's something I wasn't aware of and I'd like to know more. >> Yeah. And I mean this is stuff I read like you know I gave myself a crash course on like how this would work with what fish eat what and then what it means if there's this disproportion. So I can't say a lot other than what I've read but that's what I've been reading is that you know when you have this skewed fishery or this bottlenecked fishery um then you'll have the fish that usually would be eating the other fish but they're eating this and then like those are the ones that are grazing. But what I was struck by is just how right away, even with the restoration project in the '9s, they even said when they were stocking, if we don't get the largemouth bass in soon, this is going to cause an algae problem. And then I and then I just couldn't find any thread for years about what happened with that until this reference to like this illegal introduction of bass and and the black crappie, which usually black crappie are not suggested for these introductions. That's why I don't think they were listed as intentional. And because the bass and the crappie kind of rival each other and in such a small space, it can cause a lot of problems is what I've read. So, and I have no idea when those illegal introductions took place. The the librarian couldn't find when it happened, if it was still in the 90s because this was already well into the 2000s when I found that. Um, it said something like soon after. So, I'm assuming it was within a few years, but I just don't I just don't know. >> Susan Chapnik, >> sorry, did I did I unmute? Okay. Um, sorry, I can't see. Okay. Um, thank you, Laura. I think it's I I've wanted to see data. Um we've talked about this before. It's very important to me as a scientist to have data to make decisions with. And the fact that you were able to find these data online from from this fishing app, I think is is really well done that you put together this comparison. It's it's it's very clear. Um, I for one support further investigation because like you said, um, you're not quite sure exactly what species are there, what the biodiversity is. I think DNA testing since it just requires a water sample, um, that's not going to affect anybody. Um, so, you know, to me, that's a no-brainer. Let's do it. Um, I'm I'm supportive of an underwater camera as well. Um and as well as cleanups from that um those observations I you do know because we've been here before that park and wreck um has a say over this pond. I mean we do in terms of management of the aquatic invasives and in terms of protection um under the wetlands protection act and our local bylaws of the habitat and the wetland values. But we have to coordinate with park and wreck. So I would encourage you I mean if you need some help maybe David Morgan can help put a word in to present this to park and wreck. >> Um >> yeah. >> Can I just say I've been trying to I you know because this is also a tight turnaround right because I wanted to do >> I feel like the latest I could do it is early midocctober because >> you know and that's usually the optimal time too because the weeds are usually died back. there's a little more visibility in the water. There's less heat stress, >> right? >> But, um, they didn't let me go this month. Um, I don't know about next month. She also, uh, Natasha Weeden mentioned that, uh, you know, I she wanted to check and see if it's okay with the state. I I wasn't sure what she meant there. >> I think she doesn't understand what you're doing cuz you're taking water samples. You can go take water samples right now as a resident. Nobody's going to say anything if you dip a jar in there and take a water sample. technically even need permission, but obviously I'd like to collaborate with the town or have their blessing. But I did I think tell her I don't think >> like because it's water samples and I can put it's like fishing camera fishing. As long as I'm there with the camera, I'm not leaving it. I'm going to be there the hour. >> Camera fishing is actually less invasive than regular fishing. So I >> actually do it as a hobby. I have >> as a as a resident, you're allowed to do that. So So let me let me make another suggestion. I have two more comments. one is um presented to the fishing the fishing um line working group. Um so contact what what is the name of that woman? It's not Natasha. It's uh Courtney. Do you know Courtney Dugen? I can send you the >> I know the name, but I >> Yeah, she's she's leading it. It's under Natasha, but you know, get it directly to her and get on the fishing line working groups next agenda. They're meeting again in September. Um, I would say you can do it anyway. I don't see why this is not legal, but it is nice to to say that, you know, if we get to that point, you know, and Chuck could say if we get to that point where we support this as the conservation commission, at least you could have the conservation commission's blessing if that's where this discussion goes. The other point I wanted to make is I see an analogy here with the um biking Um the pump the pump bike. Um help me with that, Brian. Hills pump track. Okay, this is my analogy. Okay, you had kids going outside. Great. They're outside. They're recreating, >> but they were actually harming Hills, the environment, um and disturbing it by creating more jumps and and and going in the woods where the owls were, etc. So what the town did is say okay you know we had a meet we had meetings we recognize that kids want to do this kind of biking it's a good idea to get them outside let's support this recreation let's do it in a safe manner for the environment and the kids and so then we have the pump track I see this as a similar thing if we can't get a moratorum which I don't think the town's going to do is let's look at it in that vein yes We want the kids to be anglers and do it safely, but they have to do it in a safe manner. So, does that mean they have to have training and and a junior's license in this town? Does that mean they can only >> They can't The state They can't >> Unfortunately, the state has preeemption laws where you can't enforce a licensing structure or even gear, >> which really bothers me. This is part of the thing that bothers me about it. It's the kids. It's weird that to me you have to have a license at 15 or older, but if you're under 15, you don't have to be um you don't have to be supervised. Uh and >> I thought you had to be supervised though. You know, >> I know that city of uh Burlington has a thing where they say they they want you to be, but I when I look it up, I don't think Burlington can enforce that. So, I think that's just like an encouragement. So, we could encourage it. And I mean, you should check with the state, too. But everything I've looked up because of these preeemption laws and this how mass wildlife has like complete authority on on everything fishing, you can't enforce different kind of licensing schemes. You can't enforce what kind of gear because also what kind of gear can cause a lot of there's a lot of barbed barbed hooks cause more damage. These bobbers cause more damage. And >> what about location? I think you can choose locations. Well, so >> and say fishing is allowed here in in in this part of Hills Pond and not allowed here. But maybe what I'm doing so so maybe we shouldn't go down this rabbit hole >> because that's for the fishing line working group and for you and for people. But I'm just saying I see an analogy >> where we want to encourage a certain type of outdoor recreation for our youth, but they're not doing it responsibly for the environment. And so how where's the solution? And I think if you present it that way, if you ever get to park and wreck, that might be something that rings a bell with them. >> I don't know. >> Yeah. >> All right. Sorry. [clears throat] >> So, before we go to David, I just want to make sure that everyone knows that Susan was speaking as an individual. The commission hasn't taken a vote on camera surveys, magnet fishing, and DNA sampling. And I'm happy to do that, but um you know, Susan was just saying go ahead and do it and cheering her on. I want to make sure that's just people know that that's Susan's >> Yeah. Uh own >> that was my opinion as a commissioner. Yes. Thank you, [clears throat] >> David White. Okay. Very interesting. I think the water bodies working group would be interested in controlling algae and fish can do that. That's be something we think going to think about. So um we're really interested in hearing more about this and this sample seem like a simple thing to do but um we're open to um further exploration of various topics. We should also share this with the water bodies group so they know this is coming down towards them. >> Okay. Thank you David. Um, so I'm not sure that Laura would have time to go to all the groups, but maybe we can put this um make this uh video from Zoom available. >> Just just the presentation I think is good. >> Maybe that's what we do. PDF. >> All right. That Yeah, that's that's a good idea. And then many people can uh can do that. So David Morgan, if if you could just cut this section out of the Zoom video. Not sure what your ability is with all that. might be uh promoting you somehow. But um if this could be uh Laura's presentation on the conservation page, that would be great. It own little title. Uh you can even promote it on the conservation page. Uh it's an important um topic. It's I want it to gain some uh some uh some momentum here and it really hasn't. So Brian, I know you got your hand up. I was gonna ask some questions, too. I do want to move on also, but um Laura, I had a question um about um let me find my note. So, I was wondering if you felt like as you were going through the data if there was a correlation between the stunted growth and the over fishing and if if those two things were correlated. Did it did it did you take that into consideration? you still come up with the same conclusions >> if the if the over fishing is why the fish are stunted. >> Uh so they're catching the fish, they're dying from what I saw. >> Um and so the bigger fish are being taken out of the pool and uh we're just constantly having smaller fish in the pool. So that's >> that is called that's a phenomenon. So I mentioned that in my report that is so and again I'm not a fisheries per like I did take fisheries courses in when I was doing my my biology degree but it was like a requisite but it wasn't my primary focus but it is a phenomenon called targeted stunting because the people they they keep targeting the bigger fish the bigger fish but then those fish die even if you're releasing them they'll eventually die from the stress because they are getting targeted over and over again because people like the big fish and again because Hills Pond is so tiny like you know it's not like those fish have a lot of places to go or get away. So that is the they said probably one of the reasons they're smaller. Yes. Is cuz the bigger fish got overfished and now it's like the smaller bass. Um I again I don't know that much about it but that's what I did read is it you know is a confirmed phenomenon that can happen especially in smaller ponds where there's a lot of concentrated fishing and bass are the species that people target the most and again it's an indicator species and that's why the state doesn't even allow you to harvest them or take them out when they're under I think 12 in because that's what winds up happening. you wind up targeting them. I mean, yeah, stunting them, doing that stunting, targeted stunting. >> Okay. Uh Brian McBride. >> Yeah. Just a quick comment about posting some of this uh which I think is a great idea to raise awareness about the situation, but there are some young people's pictures out and >> so this is on the app itself. I I thought about blacking out their faces, but it is a public app that people can see. So, I figured them or their parents already put themselves on the site. So, I didn't, you know what I mean? It's not their private Facebook ba page. It's on the public app. But, I'm glad to also go back in and try to like black out their faces. But, it's there. It's even on the cover of like the app when you go up some, you know, they show you kind of like a little like album of like our best catch and it's all these kids faces. So, I'm like, wow. >> No. But, you know, the other aspect is your it's kind of a shaming situation if they're mistreating. Yeah, >> just consider that. >> Yeah, I understand. >> Yeah, I think that would be a good idea. Uh just for precaution. So, uh so I think we finished with the commission. I see that Susan Stamps has her hand up. If anyone else attending tonight's meeting wants to speak, I'm going to allow two minutes each. So, Susan, uh please introduce yourself to uh for the record and uh speak. >> Hi, everybody. I'm Susan Stamps on the tree committee. Um, quick question, Laura. What an amazing job you've done with the pond. I'm wondering um if what the fishing line situation is that you found there. I know it's not directly on point with what you were studying. >> Yeah. So, I mean, I don't go there as much because I don't live that close there, but I now have a little like tackler team we call ourselves, and I know they they find stuff weekly there. I mean, every pond, it's just really bad this year. every pond. Like I live next to Spy Pond and I spend every time I go there, I spend at least 20 if not usually 45 minutes or more cleaning up fishing line. It's really bad. It's in the water. It's in the trees. It's all over the ground. It's it's just a lot. And so the PE person who goes to to Monomy Rocks, they I know they sent Natasha some stuff just a week ago and it was a lot. The problem is though as one of those trees has gotten trimmed and this is a backlash problem is you know you trim which is why sometimes when we prune the trees so that it doesn't get entangled I get worried the kids cast their or some adults do this too they cast their line even higher so then it gets even higher entangled so now there are some tangles there in that tree that got trimmed last year that are so high that my tools can't reach it none of our tools can reach it it's just it's like way it's like 30 feet up high now those tangles. So, um we can't reach that stuff. Um but we get this the the the volunteer gets the lower stuff whenever every week. >> Great. Okay. I don't hear or see anyone else. Laura, I had a question that came up in my own neighborhood here. I think you people reached out from Kelwin Manor because they had um in East Arlington. Yeah. They had seen >> a few uh dead rabbits in the yard, maybe more than a few. And I just wanted to bring it up tonight. I I was encouraged that they uh reached out to you. Uh do you have any um have any words for about that system just that? >> Yeah, I did. I did tell um windom um who who reached out to me that I think my money would be on law like lawn chemicals like a lot of people don't realize but if you've sprayed your lawn with pesticides um they can get sick. Um, I know the there's a wildlife rehabber here in Arlington, Joanne Sakara. She's mostly does bunnies and she gets a lot of neurological bunnies. Um, and some of them die and that's usually what she's pretty sure is causing it is the lung chemicals because right now there's no active rabbit diseases on the mainland of Massachusetts. You could I said that that you guys could still report it just in case something is emerging, but there's right now there's no tuleria or anything going around. So, that's what I think it is. And I do walk around I live near this neighborhood um on Lake Street, so I walk toward that park a lot of nights. And I do see it several of like the the lawns with the little yellow flags with the you know the kids and the dog silhouette saying like recent pesticide treatment. and I've come across neurological crickets and bees around those lawns. So, I think that might be the reason. >> Right. Well, thank you for that. Uh, always appreciated. And so, uh, this is good. We have, um, I don't know if there's any more comments. Um, I'm not sure we're ready to take a vote or give permission on our part of what we can do at Hills Pond for the uh camera survey, the magnet fishing, and the DNA sampling. Um, >> why why not? Why can't we take a vote? >> You don't feel ready. >> I didn't No, I didn't mean to say that. I meant I don't know if we are. And I was going to throw it to the commission members to ask if there was someone that wanted to make a motion or further comments. I make a motion that the conservation commission supports Laura Keiesel in doing non-invasive water sampling or DNA analysis. Um non-invasive camera trapping, which is which is basically just putting a camera in the water, and any cleanup she needs to do, which she's already doing, um right now, uh and and do it in the fall so we can get more data and really understand what's happening in this pond. Yeah, we certainly support the commission magnet fishing and the DNA sampling. >> So, is this knew that she's doing this? I think. >> Sure. I Hold on, David. Are we all Is this part of your um uh is this part of your um motion about the magnet fishing and the DNA sampling? Also, >> I remember the magnet fishing, but I >> Well, that's that magnet fishing is the thing you use to get the the hooks out of the water. It's a part of the cleanup. >> It's a cleanup. >> Oh, it's that's part of the cleanup. So, I did say cleanup. Yeah. >> Okay. >> Yeah. >> Well, it would just be better if we if we name them, I think. >> Sure. >> Those three. So, I I wrote down camera survey, but I guess it's camera trapping. >> It's called camera trap. It's just a Yeah, whatever. >> Trapping. Magnet fishing and DNA sampling. I don't know if there's anything else. >> And then at for and the magnet fishing for cleanup. I'd like to throw those words in there so that that's we know the reason. >> We have a motion >> with us and the park and Rick. >> Yeah, David, we're gonna we're gonna Okay. >> It's always two votes. We take the first vote, then we make comments, then we take the second vote. Your your comments are coming in before we made the vote. Just just that's all I'm trying to say. >> So, we have a motion. Can I get a second? >> Second, Brian. >> Uh that sound like Brian. Yeah. So, Susan and Brian, let me get this right here. There you go. >> Uh, Mike Gildis game. >> No, don't you want to do a discussion now? So, you do a motion and then a discussion and then the vote. >> I thought it was motion, vote, then All right, fine. >> We We'll do it this way. We're just going to have one vote on this one, I guess. >> Yes. >> I'm gonna let David White go first. >> Okay. The results should be shared with the commission and park and wreck. We should also let park and wreck know that we approved this. So those are my two points >> assuming we vote to approve which we didn't yet. >> And uh I said David Kaplan. Yeah, I I would just like to, you know, if we're going to support any data collection, I just want to make sure that it's done under some kind of uh standard operating procedure so that, you know, knowing the size of the pond, knowing where and how to take the samples to most accurately get the representation that we're looking for. Um, so if there are any sort of standard methods, anything that you could reference and give us some assurance that, you know, we're going to be collecting the data and presumably we're going to be making some management decisions on it. I just want to make sure that it's um going to be an accurate representation of what's in the pond. >> Good point. >> Yeah. Is is that would you like to amend it to um the sampling should uh use standard meth standard methods? Is that enough? >> That sounds good. Or like you know some sort of approved standard methods. I don't know if that's fish and wildlife. I don't know if that's USGS. But you know maybe there's a discussion around the sampling protocol offline. maybe the water bodies working group can kind of agree that this is you know the methodology that we're working off uh and that's going to give us the best information that we can hope for. >> Okay. Okay. Any more comments? >> Can I ask a quick question? >> Sure. >> Are am I allowed to take a boat into the middle of the pond? Like am I allowed to take a kayak into the middle of Hills Pond to like I know you can do at the other two two waterways, but are you allowed to take a kayak into the pond? >> I really don't think that's our >> ability to give permission for that. >> I wasn't asking for permission. I just was I thought I wasn't sure if you knew if it was under standard access because the other thing I just was wondering about getting into the middle of the pond for a sample. Um I know the pond's pretty shallow. It's like six feet. But I know there are certain things like if you want to try to make sure you get the DNA analysis, you can do it from the two shallow spots, but sometimes they say you could try from the middle of the pond, too. But that might be hard even given that it's shallow without me just getting out on a little kayak. >> I don't think any restrictions I'm not aware of any restrictions on boat boating on Hills Pond. >> Me neither. Well, as long as it's not a motorboat, obviously. >> Yeah. It's just would be a little fold up kayak. And no motors. >> Um the water quality treatment crews that go out there sometimes use a Johnny boat to reach. >> They use a boat sometimes. Yes. >> Yeah. And relatedly, I mean probably when they're setting the air readers, they'll do the same. And that's what I wanted to comment on is just be careful as you're doing magnet fishing air. [clears throat] >> Yeah. So I don't like tip over. >> Yeah. I do not want to go in the water that >> or you know if you snag one and wind up lifting it but um they come out you know later in the fall. I don't think it'll be soon enough for your testing but >> no >> just exercise caution. >> Yeah. Okay. So we're we're ready for the vote now. So let me >> where where do we stand with this motion? So the motion is for camera surveys, magnet fishing, DNA sampling with standards that will be approved by the water bodies working group. I also make the amendment that it be shared with the um water bodies working group and with park and wreck and the park and wreck also be notified we're doing this. >> Okay. And data shared with the water bodies working group conservation commission and the park and wreck. Okay. So, um I'm not sure we have to second that again, but um let's just move on to the vote and say Mike Gildescame. >> Yes. >> David Kaplan, >> yes. >> David White, >> yes. >> Brian McBride, >> yes. >> Susan Chapnik, >> yes. >> And Chuck Terrone says yes. Okay. Thank you, Laura, for the great presentation and the follow-up Q&A. >> Thank you. >> Y >> welcome. >> Good night. >> All right. Uh I'd like to follow up with uh anything from the fishing line working group, but after that I'm going to move to number eight on the agenda, which is no number nine on the agenda, which is that enforcement of 103 uh Thorndikeke. I believe that people are here for that. And >> [clears throat] >> um I don't want to put it off too long. So Susan, if you want to follow up this discussion with your uh fishing line working group comments as liaison. >> They haven't met. So the next meeting's in September, so I have no update. >> Sure. And since that was so quick, I'll bring on David White. Do you have anything for water bodies working group? >> Um things are proceeding as per our plan. We're the pond's been treated for um invasive plants and algae and we're completing the water chestnut harvesting of the reservoir this week. So things are moving along pretty much as per plans with no major surprises. David Morgan, any data? >> Uh David stepped. Oh no, there he is. >> I'm back. Um, no. Nothing nothing that we're really uh going to need to touch on tonight. [snorts] >> Good. >> Yeah, it should be good. >> All right. So, I know Sarah Alero Franco is not here tonight. So, when we come back to this, we'll start with Sims Hospital. But right now, I'd like to uh move up the enforcement order for 103 Thornike Street. Uh we'll be talking about that. who's here tonight uh representing 103 Thornike Street in uh in that enforcement that was sent out by David White, not David Morgan. >> All right. Yeah. Conditions we have >> Hello. Can you hear me? >> Yes. >> My name is Chan from >> Okay. >> Hard Demand Design Group. >> Is there anyone else here with you tonight? Uh Franc's son, he's the owner. I can um I can give you a little update >> update. Uh I'm the original engineering record for the projects. Um [snorts] um the project has changed hands between, you know, it was permitted and um right now it's is owned by Francis. Um so he brought the projects and he moved forward with the construction got all the building permit and everything else but he wasn't aware there was a conservation approval uh until recently. So um after contact by the staff and um um you know getting the enforcement order he has been taking step on recording the the documents the order of conditions uh securing the site I mean he has been doing site work strictly under the city engineers um uh um approval you know we submit they submit all the award the dewatering plans and everything else um just do the site prep works um putting all the erosion control that was inspected by DPW um but he wasn'tware aware that you know they they also have to comply with the other conditions and now he is he's aware of that um he's working with uh David and getting everything duck in the row um I advise him to just get the um the site secure um and submit all the paperwork work and get everything secure and uh work with David to to get the ball rolling. >> Thank you. Uh before we go on, David, when I was reading the enforcement order, you mentioned all the conditions. You didn't spell them out. So, David Morgan, can you let us know, I don't know, the executive summary of those conditions or maybe even just go through them so everyone's aware what it says in the enforcement order rather than looking up um the numbers and >> yeah, I I highlighted them for you. So, um there are a few that are just the general conditions that come with every permit. >> So, let me ask you one question. Did you send the order of conditions with the enforcement order highlighted like this? >> No, we didn't. We just recently reissued the order so that they could get it recorded. So, there should be a copy in their hands to >> All right. So, we're going to just let's just go for them uh you know, one at a time and make sure that everyone understands what the enforcement order was looking for. So, uh back to you. >> Okay. Uh number nine just deals with recording the um the order. >> It's and have you have you had a discussion is that taking place or not or do you have a recorded order of condition? >> That has that has been recorded. >> Okay, great. >> So we're just looking for the confirmation of that paperwork on >> and we'll we'll send you the book and page. >> Thank you. Um >> the printing page. So number 13, workshall conform to the planes special conditions referenced in this order. Obviously there's a whole bunch of activity that's been directed by the health department, the engineering division and the owner to do activities beyond the permitted scope. >> So let's stop right there. Um maybe It might be easier at least for me to talk about the each as we go through it. >> Okay. >> So on 13 the work shall conform with the plans and special conditions referenced in this order. And now you're you're saying that that has to do with planning and health. And so if if our order of conditions hasn't been violated and it's only planning and health, I don't think 13 should be something that would you we would enforce because we can enforce those uh regulations or bylaws. So were there anything um >> I think >> conservation you know this is a conservation commission. The operative phrase here is the work shall conform. There's, you know, I mean, when you think about the act and the bylaw, we have the interest of the act and then activity as it's defined that affects those interests, right? Those activities have taken place. That's what I'm calling the work, you know, that's >> the examples. mean, you know, so forth. Um, so I I think the scope has changed or enlarged um compared with what was presented initially. So that's my argument for number 13. And I should say I'm representing Jackie's choice. I I I told her to [clears throat] go through the permit and find the ones that she thought were suitable. So she might have more. >> Well, scope is one. If they enlarge the scope and they didn't come back to the commission for a minor plan change, that's that's definitely something. But you just when you talked about it, you said planning and and health. So I wanted to make sure we had something in 13 about conservation specifically for the conservation commission through our regulations. I mean specifically that's um to do with the dewatering and um management of >> storm water and groundwater on the site. So moving on to 18. Um I'm not sure about the status of erosion controls on the site, but that's what this one deals with. Um, Jackie, are you available to speak to number 19? >> Um, yeah. So, the previous one, 13, I was just referring to the special conditions in general. Um, on the order of conditions, um, 18, I looked at the photos and it didn't look like the sedimentation barrier was necessarily around the whole work site, but I haven't been out there to confirm, so that's up for discussion. and 19. This is not subject to storm water standards, but there are criteria that go with this general condition. And um down below you'll see special conditions related to storm water are attached. So those would be in our special conditions which we can dip into. Now, scrolling down quite a ways, we get to special condition 21. Uh, we need an updated planting plan that reflects the changes in the bio retention area that were approved prior to issuance. And um I I I'll just mention it now that I think that this area that I'm highlighting is of interest in terms of the functioning of the bio retention areas and storm water management on site given how high we have found the groundwater at this location to be. um just question the uh functioning continued functioning of these under 21 with the language that's there. 27 same thing needed to update the conservation plan with impervious surface calculations. I don't believe it was submitted. Um 28 basically repeats condition nine or whatever the um you got to do what you said you're going to do. 30 uh keeping the order and permit on site. 31 um acknowledging that everybody has received and understands the order. Um 33 is the timeline for appeals and also um [snorts] recording at the registry >> 34. >> Again, recording. Oh, we should really streamline these things. It's like three conditions for recording. Um, can I can I can I just jump in for one second? I'm sorry. >> Sure. Yeah, go ahead. >> Um, well, bottom line is we are going to be working with uh David uh to resolve all this issue before we start working again. I unfortunately I have to jump off the call, but I just want to ensure the the commission that we are going to be working with David to resolve everything before we start working again. >> Thank you. >> Yeah. So, >> right. So 34 was what? >> 34 is recording. 35 is contacts for project managers and site supervisors etc. Um 38 is to do the site visit yourself and speak >> 49 is >> clean up at the end of the day and 51 is dewatering. I think those are the two that have been most at issue with the drainage of the foundation hole. And that is all that was listed in uh the enforcement order as violations, but the way that Jackie wrote it was including but not limited to. So, you know, if we get into it and find there's more. For example, number 50, I I think is applicable. Um, site's definitely not in stable condition. Hasn't been for some time. So, there are likely others in here, um, that have not been addressed. >> Yeah. Well, um, that was interesting. So, what's what's um how do we fix this? I mean, it seems like you have a lot of stuff and and this is very typical for every project. They you know, I could go through each one of these as a conservation agent and tell you something about each one. Couple at the top, you know, sure. I mean, you could you could send out an enforcement order, but you could also work with the applicant and and tell him where he's wrong. I'm concerned that there was no sitewalks and we're calling these things out on pictures. And the other thing that came to mind as you were going through these is it says prior to. There was a lot of prior to. Not sure what the catch is in Arlington. Um, do you sign off on the building permit? Was there was like it it didn't come to you at all? So, this was they got a permit and you're still waiting for like the recording. You had no idea they got a permit and permission to go. Is >> it kind of sounds like what what's going on, >> right? I I learned about the work from uh complaints made by residents to engineering and health and directly to me. um started looking into it and coordinating with other staff to to address those issues. >> Sure. And so all those prior to is is your way because the building department doesn't communicate with the conservation commission is is the uh conservation office's way of understanding that that project is getting ready to go. We're starting to check off everything. We know what's coming up. you're getting more and more contact, but none of those were uh delivered from what I'm hearing. >> Yeah, it's incumbent on the applicant to do all of those things prior to start of work. >> The only other comment I would make is when it when it says you have to keep your your site tidy and whatnot. I in my opinion, I'm thinking outside the erosion control, not inside of it, you know. So, you have to keep your tight sight tidy. Sweep the street every night. Make sure debris is not going over the fence. I mean, what we've what we fence off is a construction zone, and we expect to let them do what they need to do. We've given permission for that. I don't I'm not talking about the hole in the ground and the the pit that stayed there for a year or so. Um, I'm just talking about, you know, we've allowed a certain amount of activity, certain amount of operating space. It's usually between the erosion control and the house, you know. >> Yeah. Seriously. >> Okay. Um, I see that Susan I that's all that's all my comments. I think it's appropriate that we have an enforcement order. I think that there's been a lot of things missed. I think they started without David's understanding that this was going on. I It almost sounds like they're not even keeping David informed. Um, and so this is why we find ourselves where we are tonight. Um, and so I am uh I'm okay with an enforcement order. And I want to turn it over to Susan, the vice chair, and see what she has to say. >> Um, I support an enforcement order as well. I would like um David and Jackie for you to include the pictures of the site that I have seen they I don't know if they went to the whole commission um because they came from residents. That's how we first found out about it of the foundation filled with water basically a pool. Um so obviously the dewatering wasn't done. Um I I'd like those pictures included um so that we have them in the record. and and I would like um obviously someone to do a site visit soon to make sure that the that they did stop work which is what they said and that the site is secure um the erosion controls are in place but I am in support of of an enforcement order. >> Yeah, correctly in place and if there's any gaps or you know problems with it so in between the stakes you pull up on the on the if it's silt fence you pull up on the Yeah, Jackie's shaking her head. She knows what's going on. David does, too. So, whoever goes out there, it has to be trenched into the ground. If they want to do like straw water, mulch sock in front of it, that's great. That's also staked and it's overlapped. So, this would help out a lot if you're complaining, which you have on your list. You have, you know, keep the site tidy. Again, inside the erosion control, you know, we don't have too much to say, but outside of that, we want to make sure the erosion control is doing its job. I I did see um David Kaplan had his hand up. >> Yeah. No, I was just curious if anybody was interested. I just quickly looked up the site on near map and there is a aerial image of the of the site just completely inundated, you know, ringed by erosion controls. So, it's um I haven't seen those pictures the neighbors took, so I imagine it's more of the same. But if anybody's interested, I can share my screen. >> Yeah, why don't you do that, too? >> Does it have the pool in it? Does it look like a swimming pool? >> Yeah. >> Yeah. Oh, I don't know. >> So, the concern was also mosquito larve obviously >> or dewatering special condition and they didn't do it. Yeah. >> Yeah. >> But the erosion controls are not are not ringing the whole. So, the pictures I've seen, you see that that I don't know if it's a silt sock or whatever those green erosion controls, they were actually in the pool. >> Okay. when I saw like they were like some of them were not staked, you know, they had flopped in and Yeah. >> Is that house part of the site? >> Excuse me. >> Is that house part of a site? >> No, it's the >> No, it's just the foundation you saw with the water in it. >> Okay. >> That's where the house will go where the water is. >> So, so David, I don't know if you could indulge me a little bit more. Um, Susan just brought up dewatering. My understanding of the dewatering condition is that we want to be notified and sometimes approved of the method that they're going to be. Susan's using that as if they are responsible to dewater. So I want to know where we're at with our condition. >> We have they have to conform. I can read you the condition. >> No, we're going to have it on board. Hold on. Let me put Let me put it up first. >> Okay. >> And then you can read it. >> Okay. >> Wait, you mean on the screen? continue on. >> Yeah. So, so I interpret our condition as a requirement. >> See share. So any dewatering operation shall conform to the following. So they have to conform. >> So Susan, you're saying they have to dewater. >> This is saying when they dewater, these are the rules to follow. >> Yes. No, that's true. That's true. >> Okay, then we agree. Okay. Yeah. No, I thought you were saying >> we're not forcing them to dewater. But >> I mean, maybe >> that's what I was hearing when you said >> Okay. Okay. No, they have to conform to these standards. But you know what? Maybe we need to be clearer because who would have thought that when you have a huge pool of water in the foundation, you're not gonna dewater. >> I I agree 100%. >> We never wrote it that way cuz it was just common sense. You dewater when you dig a hole and it fills with water. >> Well, not only that, you dig a hole and you and you you keep going and you put the foundation in. Right. >> So, >> Right. So, maybe we need to tighten that language. >> I think that's a great idea. I think you know when water accumulates over a certain amount blah blah blah whoever's going to write it you know something like that. >> Okay Jackie keep track Jackie keeps track for me or David of our um revisions. Okay. >> Okay David that's good. >> So so I understand what the the purpose of that. Can you just is that because standing water is a nuisance or is it you know vi a violation of our wetlands laws? >> I had the same the same questions but so Susan and me talked about this a lot. How does that why is this not the building department or some other department >> health department >> or the health department? And I think maybe David Kaplan's saying the same thing. Show me in the regulations where we have to get involved with a pool of water because someone has left us, you know, a pit alone again in we're concerned about where that water is going and >> Exactly. Exactly. So when they need to dewater because >> where is that water going? Is it scouring? Is it eroding? Is it going into the wetland? Is it you know? So that's why we have this in here, >> right? >> Yeah. Exactly. So, so we're but we're saying we need to modify it >> so that we requiring dewatering and I'm not necessarily sure. I agree. >> Maybe not. Maybe not. >> I don't know because it's more it's more DPW and and health and we we have it appropriately. You know, you need to tell us your design so we make sure that it's not getting pumped directly into BBW or wherever. I bet you David could probably figure out, not David Kaplan, but David Morgan could figure out some way where it kind of like goes into our own regulations. But those were all my David Kaplan, those were all my comments when this first started happening. But you can see that they let it go from a a you know a seller hole all the way up to the top of the erosion control. And you know, whoever put that erosion control in gets like you know gets full credit. and that that just held in all the water. But um I I don't know. I think there's some room to have a discussion because um that's dangerous and that's dangerous health and safety for all departments and it's also an attractive nuisance and I think that we should at least have a conversation and see if there's somewhere where we can we can add a little bit in our regulations. Um maybe it turns into just a policy. Um but um to talk about when seller holes fill up with water like that. >> Do we need a site visit? >> No. I mean feel free to swing by at any point. It's always going to look the same. But >> it's not particular. >> Is it still filled with water? >> I I haven't been by in recent weeks. There there is a there is an August a recent aerial image that I didn't show you that shows it dried out. So it was inundated in April and it looks pretty dry at least from the latest image. >> Okay. So seasonal high ground water in this location is quite elevated and >> so Francis Sun is still on the uh on the call. >> Yes. Yes, I'm here. >> Can you uh let us know what site conditions are right now? >> Uh good evening everyone. So uh I have been listening uh we did a couple times deorting I'm sorry I didn't aware like we have the conservation uh involved this part but I did uh like ask the engineer to engineer before I did the dewatering. So I did dewatering like four times I believe so far is like not that bad condition but I believe the water came from the underground. So anytime I just get deorting down the second day the water just came out. Yeah, that should be the issue. But I believe based on the yesterday set visit uh uh it's it's much better. Yeah. >> So I think you had a responsibility to the I'm not talking about conservation talking about as a developer. I think you had a responsibility to keep that cell hole dry. It may it was concerning to the residents. they made enough uh you know they reached out to every department in town and the first day you discovered that you pumped it out and the next day you came back and it was filled up again. Well, you needed to put somebody on that to go every day and pump it out and come back the next day because that's a very dangerous situation and that's very close to a park and a field. And I'm not talking about conservation. I'm just talking about common sense and I feel like, you know, as a contractor that wants to work in Arlington, you know, going to work other places, great town to develop, I don't think this is something that you would want to have happen. So, I would ask you as a citizen and a resident of Arlington um to monitor this site better and when it does come up, you you do pump it out. Um >> Sure. Sure. Yeah. So, I just would like to provide more information. So, I purchased this uh property last year and I got the building permit and we start demolition uh immediately. It takes like one or two days. Then I found the the water a little bit but the winter is coming so we didn't do anything. Uh I think this April I saw the water still there and it didn't go anywhere and I visit the DPW and ask for like what kind of thing they can do before I I won't do anything before the approval. So like a DPW or something uh and the DPW the T engineer told me so uh I need to propose a plan and get them approval and I I'm aware that the same time the building inspector uh the health department was involved and those three parties and uh about around July uh I know the M DP uh kind of involved as well. I asked the pre previous siler so for related document and they sent to me. Yeah, I think that's the the whole thing. So I won't get the divoring done as soon as possible, but like I can't do anything like before the related department approval. That's my point. So >> do do you have approval to dewater now? >> Uh yeah, I I got the T engineer approval. Yes. Yes, I did. >> And I quickly I clean out the basin. I clean out the main street as well. Yeah. >> Okay. All right. So, it sounds like this is going to be kind of standard operating procedure going forward that there's not going to be any water. You'll check it after each rainstorm and make sure that you're out there enough. I don't know when you're going to start your project. It seems like if you were there doing something, this wouldn't even be an issue. But I was just going to let uh staff know that obviously we want to check out where this dewatering is going and just to make sure that um there's as much pre-treatment because we don't want mud uh going down the storm drain. >> So >> yeah, and also we put the temporal power as well so I know yeah the water just came up again and again. So I put temper power so to make sure like we can pump the water immediately. Yeah. When we need it. Yeah. But like I think the the next plan I'm going to work closely with the uh David uh about the next step. So uh like the pre construction meeting as well. So uh what should I do before I uh I proceed the side work. >> Okay. Okay. Yeah. So, we work hard on our uh orders of conditions. Um, you are supposed to read those, of course, you know, as the owner. >> Y >> and everything that says prior to is important. It keeps David informed of where you are with your project. >> Yeah. >> So, I see that Susan Chapnik's hand is up. Um I just want to understand we are going to vote on the enforcement order and then I also have a procedural question and the procedural question is the groundwater is very high here obviously maybe higher than we thought it was when we got the information for the project. We have that bio retention basin that we're relying on in the project. Um, and it looks like it may not work. What do we do about that, Chuck? I mean, that's separate from the enforcement order. That's something else. Um, but at this point, you don't want to you don't want to address that or you want to address it at a later date. >> Well, I think the way you posed it is uh kind of, you know, pushing the commission into a corner. So the commission approved the bio retention in in a in a meeting and it was represented by information that the commission read through u plans and we don't know it's not going to work. We were told that it was going to work. We went with the information we had which was stamp plans uh and engineers report and well I'm trying to remember this. This is a very shallow spot. So, I'm not sure we got an engineer's report on it, but I think procedurally since we agreed to it and it's supposed to have a discharge area, since we agreed to it, only if it doesn't work could we go back in and um like with an enforcement order or something like that or during the certificate of compliance process and try to correct it. So obviously >> so we can't request that the new owner look into that and make an evaluation whether they still think that's an appropriate um >> well you can tell them that you're you're going to be looking at it for the certificate of compliance and you will not be receiving a a certificate of compliance. David, do you sign up on the occupancy permit? >> No. >> Okay. So we just have the certificate of compliance to deal with. So, I would just let the owner know that we want that to work. It's um and I guess >> because if I was the owner, I would put an amendment in because I've seen so much water here. I know that's not going to work. If I was the owner, I'm speaking hypothetically. And so that I would put an amendment in and ask the commission, um I'm proposing this new BMP because this BMP is not going to work because there's more water here than we had thought. No, >> you don't want to go there. >> No, you're right to No, you're not you're you're not within the regulations. You are just talking about you know >> you know >> mentioning something and hoping it picks up steam. I you know I get it. I want it to work too but we have a approved order of conditions and only if it doesn't work which it isn't even built yet >> right >> could we do something about it. >> Okay. I think it's good advice. I think Francis son should look at it and understand that it's going to be hard. Most homeowners when they buy a house want a clean title. >> That's why this order of conditions is recorded on uh at the registry of deeds. So, you know, either you'll look into it now or if it and find out if it works or not. You know, I think you're going to have to build it first to find out if it doesn't work. But if it doesn't work, you're going to hear that from the commission at that time. So, it might be good to do a little bit of uh research now. At least that's the advice from our vice chair, Susan Chapnik. >> Okay. Then I make a motion to approve the enforcement order unless there's any more discussion needing. >> Yeah, there's more discussion. So, David, what were the um what were the asks of this? I thought I just read that they had to come to tonight's meeting. Do we want to add >> an update or something like that? Do we want to add um something like Susan's talking about or can you think of something from what you know about the site because they've come to tonight's meeting? What what else was needed? >> The things that were enumerated in the enforcement order are mostly procedural or sort of documents, you know, that need to be amended or filed and so forth. So, most of that can be remedied just with, you know, red tape. >> So, it sounds like we would put a date for them to come back to the commission >> or report to the commission that these things are done. How long do you think we should give them to get that list of uh you know, I don't know. There's there's going to be 12 of them there or more more. >> I I would give them at least two meetings to do that. I'm going to be out starting tomorrow for week and a half, so I'm pretty unavailable before the next meeting. >> Well, I agree. I'd like to have an update from uh from Mr. Sun and uh his engineer. I'd like to know where this is going and keep some keep an eye on it. So, a month out sounds good to me. And we'll get another report. Anything? Do you want to add anything? This is an opportunity to add something to the uh enforcement order also. >> Yeah, I mean I I I think there's a real concern about the function of this site in terms of storm water management in general. So anything that we approved in those terms should get a second look. I don't know that we can include that in the enforcement order or not. >> It's not it's not even built yet. I mean, how can we take a second look before it's put together? But >> well, that's a good question. >> What could you say? Could you have an engineer look at this, which when it wasn't really designed in the first place? It was just someone just said, "Hey, look, I'll just pick a trench here and we'll just dump some water in it and that's where my roof drain is going to go." >> Yeah. And I do think it needs that kind of scrutiny. Um, I'm thinking about when we reopened the permit at Arlington High School for the artificial turf and hung our hat on, the fact that information about the chemical composition of turf components wasn't known at the time of issuance. So now we have something kind of similar in that we have an enforcement order. It's not reopening the permit >> except that that the high school when we were discussing that was in the discussion process. We didn't issue an order of conditions. >> We have a we have a valid order of conditions that that describes what should happen on the site. >> We did have an order of conditions for the high school >> and we at the time when we Yes. you know, when David was talking about when we were discovering that there was um you know, some things >> additional chemicals in the in the tire crumb rubber, that was after the order of conditions was already made. And so I made a case based on the regulations were allowed to go back in if there's new information to to to do that. And then we questioned whether it should we could ask them to do an amendment or whatever. But that that was the process. It was >> what's the purpose of this storm water this storm water ditch this rain garden whatever whatever it is. What what is the purpose? Roof runoff. >> Yeah. I mean it's mitigation as well as as memory serves. >> It's mitigation but it was specifically for roof runoff. [clears throat] >> So he has to look for another spot for roof runoff on the site. I mean like his roof, >> which is >> Well, I can certainly see that uh that there's a bigger issue at play here for sure. >> Yeah. I mean displacement of groundwater contributing to the >> how is that tied into a us uh not to argue but we only have to get the order of conditions out and we have to what was that you know rain garden put in for? >> Sure. So let's take a step all the way back to the jurisdictional area where this project lies, which is the 100red-year flood plane. Changes to site hydrarology are jurisdictional and we have orders conditions in the order rather that say you can't displace storm water runoff you can't increase it on other properties and so forth either during or after construction. So if you put a foundation in that hole where there is groundwater, you're going to raise the groundwater around it. Storm water will not be able to infiltrate and it's going to run off onto adjacent properties. That's a violation of the order. So >> what was he allowed to do in the order of conditions? >> Build a house. >> So aren't you aren't you disagreeing with yourself? >> I don't think I am. I I think I'm looking >> You have an approved order of conditions that certainly took all that information into consideration. I I don't know the right information. I don't have the right information. >> We didn't know the elevation of the groundwater at the top. >> Yeah. I'm gonna do we have I I think not all of us have all that information in our head. I know I >> Let's just Let's just instead of like running over this, let's Does is the entire commission Oh, David Kaplan has his hand. I just want to know if everyone's okay at this point in this site if if we want to continue and and and keep talking about groundwater and find out uh you know more on the lines of what Susan and David are saying uh have the whole site re-evaluated and engineered for um I'm not even sure we can do it to be honest with you but you understand what David and Susan are asking does anyone want to say yay or nay let's continue the conversation >> yeah I I support having this conversation a little bit more offline. when we have time to sort of think about it, we all have time to go back and look at the um the site plans, understand what that rain garden, the purpose it's serving, what's connected to it, um what the presumed groundwater elevation was, and I don't even even though that hole was filled up, I still don't have a good idea of what, you know, the groundwater elevation is even after it was filled up. if it was it filled up with rainwater plus groundwater at the time is it at its highest. So I I just don't feel like I have enough information to determine that the site conditions are any different from what the engineer originally, you know, outlined them as during the hearing. And seeing as how this just an enforcement order and to get the site into compliance and have a little bit over more oversight on the commission, um I'd prefer to keep the the conversation at that at this point um and everybody sort of think about it. It's food for thought and maybe continue the conversation at a later date um once we've had time to dig into it a little bit. >> Thank you, David. Um what about Brian McBride? I'm just going to call on everyone. So you're you're going to be called on. Brian, what do you think? >> Yeah, of course. I don't know enough about this to say with any certainty, but um >> Well, that might be an answer right there. >> But is that is the obs is the observation that there's water in the cellar hole sufficient to indicate there's a a mistake on the engineering. So that that's my question. How do how do we know that's the case? And I I I think the original comments we made to the to Mr. Sun are probably the most important one. um is ad you know advice from citizens go back and check your calculations because you'll be in a big mess if this goes wrong after the house is built. >> All right. So on interpret that as time to think about it. So we we're already one of the conditions that we're going to add to this order of conditions. We we look at it again. Mr. Sun comes back in a month two meetings. Um Mike Gildes game. >> Yeah. I I mean I I think that what uh Susan and others are saying is absolutely correct that we need more information but I think in terms of the issue before us I think we need to go ahead with the enforcement order uh and I think if there's a mistake somewhere along the line in terms of groundwater levels or any other issues those can be corrected down the road, but I think if we I I don't think we can't in uh vote on the enforcement order. >> Yeah. And just remind everyone when we originally looked at this uh law, there was a house on it that's been removed. So, we said yes to a house where a house was standing. David White, what do you have? Uh, do you have any comments about whether we should continue talking about getting an engineer or require an engineer to look at this site based on what Susan and David have been saying or would you like to uh hold off and look into this ourselves and maybe come back at our next meeting or a month from now and have a different discussion? >> I'm not quite sure. We issued the permit already, so the owner is responsible for whatever happens. It's true. That's where I'm at. I don't I don't know how we can issue an order, >> not have it complete, and then say we take it back. So, in other words, you know, when we go for a certificate of compliance, you you're not allowed to add things to it. Certificate of compliance is continuing conditions and an up and down approval of aspects on the project. You can give a partial, but you can't add anything. So, I feel like this this feels like adding something to me at this point, but I would certainly like to know more about it because um you know, it's important. We don't want to. We've done a lot of work on this commission to reduce flooding in East Arlington. And so I do want to have the conversation, but I I think what we should do is put it off for a month and David Morgan can put the order of conditions and any other relevant material up on that agenda uh uh Google Drive and we'll add this to the agenda to talk about um flooding potential flooding issues at this site. >> Looks good to me. >> Okay, so this So, we're done. Uh, there was only one uh addition to the order uh to the enforcement order, which is uh so I know it's the September 3rd, the next one, and so it's another September date. So, if it's the third, it would be the 17th. So, Francis Sun would be coming back on the 17th. And hopefully he can tell us everything on that list has been completed. And we would also like you and your engineer to stick around to be part of the conversation regarding potential overloading of the um of the uh detention basin or rain garden, whatever you want to say. And I guess um and potential flooding that we didn't think about. So, I guess your engineer would be great to uh I guess help us with that conversation. Anyone have a uh motion? You can say so moved or add something to the conversation. >> So moved. >> Can I get a second? >> I'll second. >> Never mind. I guild this game. So, here we are. So, um, Susan Chapnik, >> yes. >> David White, >> yes. >> Brian McBride, >> yes. >> Mike Gillis, >> yes. >> Susan Chapnik, oh, wait a minute. I did say you. Sorry about that. Uh, David Kaplan, >> yes. >> And Jack says yes. Okay, just going to recap. Mr. son, please make sure you have some time to be at our next meeting. Uh, and David will send you the enforcement order and hopefully that list has disappeared um of things to do and keep in contact with David and Jackie at the office. I believe email is best. >> Can can you just clarify the date because it's not the next meeting, right? It's the one after. >> Yeah. So it's the 9th and then our next meeting would be >> September 17th. >> 17th. Thank you. >> Thank you. >> Yeah. So no, actually the first one's the 3rd. The second one's the 17th. So it's September 17th >> and materials due the 9th. Okay. Um, let's just get this out of the way. We'll go to number 10. Uh, so the notice intent for Zero Reed Street. Um, the conservation commission has received a request to continue that um from the applicant. Uh, like I said, it was about an hour before this meeting started, but the request is to continue it to se September 3rd. Motion to continue to September 3rd. >> Second. >> Can I get a second? >> Second. >> Go this game. >> Uh Susan Chapnik, >> yes. >> David White, >> yes. >> Brian McBride, >> yes. >> David Kaplan, >> yes. >> Mike Gillis game, >> yes. >> And Chuck Terrone says yes. All right. So that zero street is continued to September 3rd. All right. So, that's most of our business, but we're going to come back in on Sims Hospital, and I believe that's Brian McBride. So, we're back to our uh discussion items. This is number six, six on the agenda and uh our liaison is Brian McBride. >> Right. So, the the two big buckets, Chuck, and and group are uh the restoration plan and the encroachments. On the restoration side, uh they we've hit a bit of a snag with the forestry person who's been doing the work on the restoration plan is on extended illness leave and they're they're now looking for a replacement due to the length of the leave. So, that's a bummer. Uh but um hopefully we'll find someone quickly and get back on track. They do have >> one thing or another. >> What's that, David? Sorry, I couldn't hear. >> They do have proposals for this restoration plan, so that's good. But they need someone to review the proposals and talk about executing. So, um, on the encroachments, I I know we we um just in general, I guess, is the best way to phrase this. Things are moving forward. There's dialogue with the uh encroaching parties. Uh, they basically agreed to our prior proposal. There are some T's and I's to cross and dot and letters to exchange and documents to exchange and that's ongoing right now and I expect to have some more details next next month. That's it. >> Okay, any questions? Moving on. Uh, so we have administrator's report but there was nothing written there so I'm not sure there is one. David Morgan, is there something? >> Nothing of note. Nope. >> Great. So, we're now we're on to our item number eight, which is the appropriation of funds for the Nathaniel Ste for [laughter] the Oh, it's late. For the Nathaniel Stevens dedication tree. Um, do we have a number of what we're, you know, like we're dedicating funds, how much are we talking about >> and what species? >> Yeah. >> Yeah. Where? >> I've been working on this together and I can give a summary. I think Susan, that's that's what you're looking for. Um, so yeah, we're looking for a white oak. There's been discussion with Nathaniel and others that a white oak native species would be the choice. And this would be a 3-in caliber tree. It would be located along the roadside at the lower overlook of the um Sims property. Uh, and it would replace a tree that was originally planted but didn't survive. So it' be sort of win on that count too. >> Replacement. Uh >> y >> will there be a sign? >> I'm sorry. >> Will there be a sign? >> Yes. So yeah, that's the second piece is there'll be a I keep saying memorial plaque. Um commemorative plaque. Um >> I know >> dedication, >> right? Um there'll be a a commemorative plaque, a recognition plaque um with a brief statement of you know the gratitude to Nathaniel and we can work on the words together later on. Um the uh on the finances side so we earlier had earmarked $250 for this I guess a couple years ago. >> Was that earmarked and approved? Right. >> Earmked and approved. >> Yes. So we have $250 towards this. Yep. Uh the estimate David and I were talking today, the estimate's around $1,000 for everything said and done, maybe maybe a little more. I don't know. Uh so with the $250 that we have already approved, uh I would ask for another $250, maybe500 if we wanted a buffer, some something like that. We'll be uh the Arlington Land Trust has agreed to donate 500 as well. So that would bring us up to a,000 or 1250 um which is plenty for the project. The the good news is the the Arlington 360 folks have agreed to install the tree. So that's a little significantly there >> and also water it for the first >> take care of it. Yes. >> I understand Chuck you may have a a gator bag or >> Yeah, I'll bring I'll I'll grab that tomorrow and I think I'll drop I know where Susan lives so I'll drop it off at Susan's house. So, >> um, so you have a gator bag. Uh, I just had a couple questions. So, what is the ask? Because I heard $500. I heard $250, a,000,500. That is one expensive tree. We planted trees in a meadow last year and we didn't pay this, but they had tags on them and they were 3-in caliber. We had white oak. They were $550. >> Yep. That's exactly. So, I think we're we're asking for 250 from the commission's um fund that's administered by the ALT. No, our conservation [clears throat] fund. >> Yeah. >> That's administered by the ALT. We're asking for another 250. We already had 250 approved back in 2019. Those of you who were on the commission then might remember that when Nathaniel passed the baton to me as chair and he had been chair for numerous years, we we assigned that to plant him a tree. Then CO happened so we never did it. Um so we approved that money. So if we add another 250 to that that gives us 500 for the tree and then alt is chipping in 500. That'll be whatever else we need for the tree plus the plaque. >> And the on the cost side, to answer Chuck's question explicitly, the tree is estimated to cost around $4005$500 and the plaque should cost $300 to $400. So we're looking at $800 total. >> What is the black made out of? >> I think it's bronze, David. Is that what we were talking about today? >> Solid gold. [clears throat] >> No, it it is bronze. Is it is there a light that at night? No, >> I don't think so. We don't want to disturb the wildlife. >> Oh, I was going to say it would be really nice. And I know he goes away for Fourth of July, so maybe we could like set the lights up to flash and stuff on that day. >> Hey, we could do a solar light. >> It's It looks like we're going to have extra money, so maybe Brian can look into a light. Yeah, >> let's not do it. >> It's a little close. I don't know. I'm always >> If we had extra money, we could, you know, just have, you know, do a little like ground breaking and, you know, a little celebration. Yeah, >> we have an event, right? >> All right. So, we need a vote for 250 from the >> I think David White has his hand up, too, though. >> Oh, sorry, David. Please. So, it sound like sound like a mix of funds. I'm okay with that. I make just note that the conservation stewards fund is for conservation stewardship activities, >> right? It's for volunteer activities, right? And stewardship and we consider this a stewardship of that environment because it's replacing a tree that didn't make it. >> I guess you could it's stretching a little bit, but that's the >> like a mix of funds though. So >> what we approved previously from that same fund. So yeah, I hear you. We're getting good leverage of our funds with free installation and an ALT match, too. So, that's that's a point. >> Yeah. >> Motion to approve. >> Great. Thanks, Dave. [laughter] Thanks, Dave. >> Yep. Let's go. Let's keep going. Second. >> Susan Chapnik. Great. Mike Gildisgame. >> Yes. >> David White. >> Yes. >> Brian McBride. >> Yes. David Kaplan, Susan Chakman. >> Yes. >> And Chucki says yes. >> And you didn't ask, but we do have the funds. We have several thousand dollars in our scholarship fund. So, nobody asked that question, but we do have the money. >> It's around. >> You don't want to spend money. We don't have We're not the government. >> That was a big [laughter] >> We're not going into debt here. >> Um Chuck, if we can step back to the administrator's report later on, doesn't have to be right now. Um, I have a very fun thing to share with people. So, >> okay. So, we just have uh open forum, new business, and then adjournment. So, do you want me to run through those and then go back to administrators or you like just take it take it right now? >> Uh, let's do it last. Let's finish on a high note. >> Sounds good. So, um, so we have um open forum. So, I'd like to know if anyone here, commissioners or anyone attending tonight's meeting has anything that they would like the commission to consider for one of their upcoming agendas. Um, and uh so you could have two minutes to speak about that and then we would make a determination whether it would be on an upcoming agenda or not. So, any takers? I see Brian McBride. There we go. Brian McBride. >> Just one quick thing. Uh uh David Morgan, David White and I had a nice meeting a week or two ago regarding uh sort of stewardship of the conservation properties and I think we made some nice progress in terms of setting a pro a process in place whereby we might come to you all in the medium future with maybe a document like uh a plan for care and uh enhancement of the conservation properties. maybe some general goals, some tools, some specific priorities in terms of the projects. I just want to let you know that I I thought anyway, and David, David, chime in, that that was a good meeting and I it feels like a good track and I'd like to know that the uh commission supports that direction. >> Sure. >> Also CPA approach funding, too. >> Yeah. So, if you'd want a vote, I would prefer to have a vote on the agenda before we take one, but it sounds like it's a good agenda item to me. Okay, >> sounds [clears throat] maybe we can come back with a draft single page document at some point and bring that up. >> That would be great. Yeah, I appreciate that. And I'm going to I'm going to say that uh conservation land behind Arlington Coal and Lumber is probably like first on your list. I I I think I got an agreement on that. Susan Chapnik. >> Thanks, Chuck. Um I just wanted wanted to to tell the commission that that you and I and David Morgan and Jackie have been looking at two candidates um for um the conservation commission for the open position that's being vacated by Nathaniel. Um, and they're very interesting candidates and we're going to we're meeting offline and hopefully maybe at our next meeting, Chuck, or the one after we we can bring um proposals to the commission that our recommendation. >> Good. >> Yeah, there was a little bit of ambiguity about what the next steps are. So, I that's why I reached out to you and said we we need to talk. >> Okay. >> So, so we're going to talk first, right? And we're going to find out like what are the next steps and um >> and so um but um yeah >> but it'll be coming to the commission in September. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. I just wanted to make that clear. Thank you. >> Something something will be coming to the commission in September. She's not making any promises but something maybe more maybe just some more information. Um, any other comments? Hey, David. Um, Morgan, did you want to be here for that September meeting? You said you were not going to be here for a week. Are you going to miss that first September meeting? >> No, I'll be back for the third. >> Okay. Okay, great. Any other comments from uh anyone attending tonight's meeting? I just want everyone to know that Seth is one of our um uh one of the applicants and he's uh been at tonight's meeting watched the whole thing and so uh I'm not going to ask him to come on because it's we're not ready for that yet but um just wanted you to recognize the name. Okay. Uh it looks like we're done. So let me just check the agenda. And he is no new business, right? So I think we went through that. >> We have to go back to David. Remember he said he has one one thing for you. >> That would be new business. Okay. David, give us give us your administrator's new business report. >> So we have a new recycling coordinator in town. Laura, oh god, Olivier [clears throat and cough] is her last name. She came by the office to introduce herself last week or so. And um during that conversation, she said, "Do you need a goat herd to do landscaping?" And I said, "Boy, do I." >> I'm [laughter] so excited. I'm so excited. >> This is a job opening. >> Yeah, indeed. >> What's the connection? Give us give us some background here. Um, so she knows this woman over in Lexington who has done work at Lex Farm and numerous conservation properties around Metro West like in Lincoln, Bedford, Lexington, Conquer, etc. And so she's she's really gung-ho about doing public education around sustainable landscaping and conservation issues and uh uses her sort of public engagement with her herd like every time she goes out and does a job like this to to do that kind of education and so forth. So, I had been planning a huge event for Pond Lane for the native garden that we want to put down there and I called it off as soon as I heard that there were goats available and said, you know, they can do 75% of the job. I met with her on Wednesday, I guess that was yesterday, um at the location and talked about, you know, what the goats would eat, not eat, how much time they would spend there, etc. So it is looking like let's let's say it's highly possible that we get her for four or five weeks starting midepptember and uh she'll be there midday for a couple of hours. People are invited to come down and hang out with the goats. you know, not gonna overwhelm them, but she says that they do really well with kids and grown-ups, as a matter of fact. Um, they they like to feel comfortable in the new space and assured that they're not going to become prey. So, the more humans are around, they think, the safer they are. out. This is an open invitation. If we get this to uh jump through all the hoops that you come check it out and hopefully we can do similarly for other conservation properties in the future. >> So David White has his hand up and I'm have my hand up too. So David, you're first. I only had used goats before in various properties at the Sims property by the Drake village and um also Habitat used goats as well. So it's >> Yeah, I knew about the um the Sims goat landscaping. This is a different herd. I asked her if it was her cuz she's been doing this for >> Yeah. Yeah. 20 plus years or something and she's got five generations of goats that she'll bring along, but she said no, it was a different crew then. >> So Dave, what is this uh what is the charge for this? >> She's willing to volunteer and I suggested that maybe we find some way to picture a donation of some kind. My next question is, are the goats so with with wildlife, is there a fight a flight or fight? Uh um kind of, you know, the scent from the goats and their dropped, you know, going to the bathroom, whatnot. Is there is there um a problem with that if you put them in a natural environment? I know where you're talking about isn't very natural, but is is that an issue if you wanted to bring them out into a like native landscape? >> Yeah, it's a good question. >> I don't really know. I would imagine, you know, >> various critters are paying attention like that, so probably they're going to be hip to it. Whether they're going to freak out about it is another question I can't answer. But um >> I thought you were going to ask about the goats themselves and whether they would pose any kind of like safety [snorts] concern for people like if you scare them and >> No, I was going to ask how many what you said a herd and then you talked about four and four generations. So I'm thinking >> 13 goats in total. >> 13. Yeah. >> Yeah. Quite a crew. >> I have a question. Do they do they use the invisible uh electric fence or I mean how do you keep them in there? >> She's got them on leashes. >> Oh wow. So that's even better because I know we use the fencing at Sims which is fine but then we needed a lot of signage to make sure kids wouldn't touch the fence and >> Yeah. And also, you know, she's had experience with other sites where there are dog walkers and so forth, and she's learned that she's got to keep them close, >> not >> get them entangled with the dogs. >> How big is this area on uh what would you say? Pawn Lane. >> Yeah, it's a half acre. >> So, it's going to take four weeks. >> Well, she's not there full-time, so >> Yeah, exactly. I mean, she'll do like hour and a half, two hours per week. She'll just do one day out of the week around lunchtime. >> And [clears throat] >> um she thinks they'll make light work of it. I mean, >> are you going to paint all the invasives pink before they go out there? [laughter] >> Get some pink droppings. >> Yeah. Well, I don't know. Maybe you could use like I don't know some cake icing or something like that and then take some pictures [laughter] of it and tell them uh you know we're getting everybody helping around here with this stuff. >> That's awesome. >> So David, are you going to have signage up to tell >> Oh yeah. If this comes through definitely >> publicize the hell out of it cuz >> I hope Friday is one of the days they're out here because I'd like to see it. So >> I want to see it too. >> Everybody about it lights up. It is such a great PR opportunity. I'm thrilled and I'm just >> happy that we made a connection and maybe we can keep it going. >> That's awesome. >> Good. >> Yeah. >> Jackie, do you have anything to say about the goats? >> No, I mean it sounds really interesting for sure. I I hope to get to see them. >> Great. >> If you move to the next step like Habitat, then you then you own your own fleet and you have to >> beat [laughter] >> tempted to do it at my own house, but >> Oh, yeah. >> My neighbors won't let me keep goats. [laughter] >> All right. Well, that's all good. Uh I don't know if um we want to keep talking goat, so we want to get going. So, uh I think we're done. David, that was excellent. That was a really good ending and uh we're looking for to adjourn at this point. >> Motion to adjurnn. >> Great. >> Got second. Everybody raise their hand. >> Bye everybody. >> Good night. >> Enjoy the rest of the summer. >> Take care. [music] >> [music]