CONFRONTING GENOCIDE

So, were you the only Jewish person on the flirtillaa this time? >> Um, as far as I know, there was another person other person. I never met them. I only found out that they were there later. It was an American Jewish person. I think he was actually also from Israel, an American Israeli Jewish person, but I was the only other one that I met or knew. >> Right. And did you tell your capttors that you were Jewish? >> No, you didn't. >> I didn't. I didn't. suppose did you get the opportunity? >> No. And you know I didn't want to engage in discussion with them. That was never part and it was never inflagger. We weren't you know invited to engage in discussion. You sort of hardly wanted to look them in the eye and if you did want to engage in discussion it was never going to work out well. At the port they were trying to engage us more in discussion with sort of you know comments like you know welcome to Israel and what are you doing here and why do you love us so much or why do you hate us so much and ridiculous things like that. >> I heard the national anthem was playing in a loop. >> The national anthem was playing in a loop when we were actually so we were on the prison boats >> on the boats. That's right. I was on that for 3 days because my boat, the um FileTo, [clears throat] was the first boat to be taken. >> Was yours the good boat or the bad boat? I heard that where one was was >> Oh, we were the bad boat. >> Definitely the bad boat. Yes, we were. >> Tell us tell us what happened. >> Tell us what happened. >> Welcome to Consortium News. I'm Kathy Bogen in Sydney. There have been over 20 civilian missions to break in almost 20 years siege of Gaza, which in 2023 intensified to exclude or severely restrict the entry of food, water, medicine, and fuel. All but the first attempt in 2008 to deliver bare necessities to the people of Gaza have been intercepted by Israel and met with violence that has ranged from arrest and detention to execution. In 2010, the Mauvi Mamura lead in a humanitarian aid flatillaa was raided by Israel commandos who opened fire with live ammunition, killing 10 Turkish activists, one a jewel American citizen, and injuring over 50 others. After agreeing in 2016 to pay $20 million in compensation to the families of the deceased, Israel has not killed any more flatillaa activists, but it has continued to capture and subject them to harsh treatment. 53 activists from the 2026 global somewood flatula were hospitalized in Turkey after their release. The volunteers had set sail in May with 50 boats containing hundreds of activists of various nationalities. They were intercepted near Cyprus in international waters in violation of the law of the sea and taken against their will to detention in Israel. The Australian Foreign Minister, Penny Wong, has met with four of the 11 Flatillaa activists and heard allegations of kidnapping, physical torture, and sexual assault while in Israeli custody. In response, the Australian Federal Police have begun an investigation. The global Sumwood flutilla group has also lodged a submission with the international criminal court alleging war crimes, crimes against humanity, torture and other breaches of international law against the Palestinians. This adds to an act of trial against Israel at the International Court of Justice brought by South Africa for the crime of genocide. With us today is Annie Mockato, one of the Australians on board the Global Sunwood Flatillaa and Andrew Brown, who has written about the meeting with the foreign minister for Michael West Media, a local publication. We are also joined by Michael West himself, editor-inchief of the publication, who will weigh in on Annie's story and the Australian government's response. Annie, you didn't get to meet with Foreign Minister Wong, but maybe you can tell us what happened to you and what you saw happening to others. Consular officials were present during the deportations. They said a screen was blocking their view, but they heard screams. We'd like to know what was going on behind that screen and what had [clears throat] been happening from the moment of interception, but maybe you can start by telling us a little about your background and why it was important for you to be on one of those boats. >> My background is I'm an Australianborn. Um, my parents were Holocaust survivors. They arrived in Australia in 1951. I was obviously born here. I've come from a community of Jews that lived in Melbourne that all belonged to uh the Bund, which was a socialist organization that was set up in Poland and Russia, probably around the same time as the Zionist organization in the late 19th century. I grew up in a family that was non-Zionist, non-religious, um, traditional Jews in the sense that tradition for us was Yiddish. So, we spoke the Yiddish language. We created Yiddish schools. I grew up in a family that was very much against any kind of war. We were Labour members, Labour Party voters. My parents were very active politically. And so, I always understood the notion of um, never again is never again for anyone. and [clears throat] the idea that um Jews should live actually or in the diaspora which means um that we should make our home wherever we are and be as humane as possible wherever we are and that's called doyate in Yiddish. So that's kind of my background. And what led you to get on one of those boats to bring aid? >> Well, h you know, the obvious, you know, people were being murdered. I knew I was always anti-Israel. I knew that it was a um a Zionist colony set up purely for the purpose of having a kind of false sense of security in a place that was chosen almost arbitrarily to be the home of the Jews. And I always was aware that the Palestinians had been evicted and kicked off their land. But I wasn't aware till much later that they were actually in the way that they were murdered because that was kept out of even the discourses that we used to have. Um so you know I'd been following Palestine for a long time. So it was time to go. And it was time to go because although I didn't feel necessarily um particularly Jewish in myself, I'd sort of left my Judaism sort of on the side. I felt that since this despicable genocide was happening in my name, I needed to stand up as a Jew and participate very strongly as a Jew. >> So, were you the only Jewish person on the flirtilla at this time? >> Um, as far as I know, there was another person. Other person, I never met them. I only found out that they were there later. It was an American Jewish person. I think he was actually also from Israel, an American Israeli Jewish person, but I was the only other one that I met or knew. >> Right. And did you tell your capttors that you were Jewish? >> No, I didn't. >> I didn't I didn't >> I suppose did you get the opportunity? >> No. And you know, I didn't want to engage in discussion with them. That was never and it was never in Flagger. We weren't, you know, invited to engage in discussion. you sort of hardly wanted to look them in the eye and if you did want to engage in discussion it was never going to work out well. >> Um at the port they were trying to engage us more in discussion with sort of you know fasile comments like you know welcome to Israel and what are you doing here and why do you love us so much or why do you hate us so much and ridiculous things like that. >> I heard the national anthem was playing in a loop. The national anthem was playing in a loop when we were actually so we were on the prison boats >> on the boats. That's right. >> I was on that for three days because my boat the um FileTo was the first boat to be taken. >> Was yours the good boat or the bad boat? I heard that where one was was >> Oh, we were the bad boat. >> Definitely the bad boat. Yes. >> Tell us tell us what happened. Tell us what happened. >> Okay. So we got on the boat um you know we were taken off our our own lefaltto. We got on the boat and as soon as we stepped in the treatment of of taking us off the fileto was not great but it wasn't the worst you could have imagined. As soon as we got onto the prison boat things changed and the treatment became really rough. Um you know our clothes were taken off us. I was left in a t-shirt and and my pants but it was pretty cold at that stage. Um, and that's all I had for 3 days. We were thrown onto the ground. We were um, our heads were pushed down. U, one of the girls that came on in the boat after me and she was behind me had her head pushed down so hard that she lost consciousness at that moment. That's a whole other story. Um, we were basically we didn't get up really. We were sort of made to crawl along the floor and to a desk and there we got our passports um which the organizer on our boat had given to them. We were >> they had our passports in our hand. They gave us a number. They kept our passports and we had a number put around our wrists relating to our passports. We were taken in. Um we were pushed and pulled and I wasn't beaten. Absolutely not. I was kicked in the bum and I had some proddding and they pushed your head down. >> That's not beating. >> Well, >> oh, you mean beating is something much worse. >> What happened afterwards? So many people came in. I I'll just go on because what happened was that you were kicked through a door onto an empty space where which was the space that we stayed. Um and so in those three days, people came out regularly. We could hear people being processed. We could hear more and more screams with every boat that came and everyone that kicked out was in a worse and worse state the longer we were there. Um particularly the males firstly and particularly darker males or people Turkish or Greek. So in the first say three boats it was mainly those people that were being bruised and beaten and had within the second by the second boat someone came out already with um a broken rib. So, [snorts] um, in my boat, a few people were m mistreated. So, they were punched in the face and given a few bangs in the in the ribs, but nothing that they, um, had to to sort of sustain. I don't know. It was very hard after that. Everyone just came out bruised and beaten. That's all I can say. >> So, there was a lot of >> And that was sort of the the game of the whole three days. They would catch boats. They would bring the people in >> on hands and knees. They would beat the men. Um, some of them spoke about um, one woman actually, she was a she was about the third boat after me. She was a Muslim woman. She'd had her hijab ripped off. She was very quiet when she came out and when I went up to her, she said that she'd been penetrated. That was the first I heard of sexual abuse. >> I don't know if she >> Yes. And of course the Australian women, Juliet Lamont in particular, has said that she was sexually abused. >> Yeah. No, I'm not saying that. I just said that was the first I heard of the first person that spoke to me of the sexual abuse that was happening. No, that it was obvious that there was sexual abuse all the time. >> Not so much with the women, but I felt >> um the men were very quiet. often they would come out and um they would sort of lie in the ground and we would wait for them. You know, people that knew the people off the boat, their friends would wait for them and come up to them and a lot of them um who were very seemed very hurt pulled away and sat in a corner or on the side with their heads in their hands and their hands on their knees. And it felt to me like there was a moment where they had to collect what had just happened to them. [snorts] >> And it almost wasn't like, you know, when someone comes off a football field and they've been hurt, you want to get assistance. They needed a moment to recover, to collect what it's what had just happened to them. Not all of them were like that, but quite a few of them. And this to me I sort of would often go up to someone else, not them ever [snorts] um because we had a word that was given to say that you had to say to the lawyers if you'd been sexually abused. >> And so you know often we were trying to tell somebody that if they could tell that person to use that word. So it was kind of it wasn't clear what was happening in terms of sexual abuse. Certainly not with the men and even most of the women didn't speak up about it at that time. >> Mhm. But do you mean it was quite common? >> Yeah. >> So what about food and water? Were you given enough to eat and drink? >> Uh no. We were given very we had to we started to sort of protest that we needed water after a few hours. There was only about 30 of us on board then. So that would be about three boats. >> So we actually had to ask for water. Uh the first time they threw in water um has someone opened that little hatch door and threw out six bottles of um you know half lers of water which was kind of a joke seeing that there was 32 of us and then after that they opened the door again and threw out six falafel pitters. So it was it began it was a sort of a taunting. It was the game they were going to play. It was sort of the abuse, the upper hand that they were aiming for. >> Were you given any idea of how long they were going to keep you there or >> No, we had no idea. No, we had no idea. But the food and the water, the water came regularly. Food didn't come. All we got was was sort of dry bread, which sometimes was completely frozen or sometimes was completely wet. Most of us didn't eat the bread and we had sporadic water to answer that question. And no, we had no idea how long we were going to be there or where we were going. Oh yeah, because uh you know other reports say that people were threatened with being charged with very serious crimes that could lead to many years in prison. Andrew, can I move to you for a first question? >> Absolutely. >> You wrote about the meeting with Wong and the AFP in an article entitled a world first. Australia will now investigate Israel. You say the AFP will need quote operational footage, body camera recordings, communications records, detention logs, medical records, and witness statements as material that would exonerate Israel if it contained no evidence to substantiate the allegations. But it isn't just Israel's decision to hand over the material, is it? Given 53 activists were hospitalized near Istanbul after their deportation, Turkey could also hand over evidence, namely of the injuries incurred in Israeli custody. You've looked into this matter in some depth, Andrew. Are you aware of any attempts by the AFP as yet to obtain the Turkish medical records? >> No, I couldn't tell you that for certain, Kathy, but look, they're they are aware of everything that took place. Um, interestingly, the AFP commissioner who's been assigned to this told the ladies at the meeting, um, they did not expect Israel to comply. They're not anticipating Israel will give them anything. This is coming directly from the AFP commissioner. Um, regardless of whether it exonerates Israel, you would think they would be rushing to do it to exonerate themselves. However, the AFP had suggested that forensic evidence was not necessary for them to form an outcome about what happened. The testimonies of the Australians and corroborated by others. Hopefully, information they could get from the Turkish authorities was going to be enough for them to formulate their opinion about what happened. So if Israel wants to, you know, wants to play hard, I think it just speaks volumes about their guilt um rather than uh their innocence. >> Yes. Well, you were saying that Australia is the first. This is a first where a country decides to investigate alleged crimes of international law by Israel. Not not for just for the flirtillaa activists. >> Um I mean, of course, there's the South African case as well. So, um, what are you expecting? Um, well, both you, Andrew, and Michael West, what are you expecting to happen? And how long do you think we're going to have to wait? I mean, I think one has to, before you answer that, we should contemplate that this has to do with allegations of rape. >> Yeah. >> And these kinds of investigations normally have to be investigated and prosecuted fairly quickly, don't they? Oh, I'll jump in on that. Look, I I I can't with all that needs to with with all the witness statements that need to be gathered and there's 11 Australians and there's I think 200 fertiller activists, the AFP are going to have their hands full getting their heads around this. >> [clears throat] >> Um, particularly they'll make protestations to Israel to hand over all the things, the ships logs, the the camera footage by IDF soldiers, by by body cams, by ones that they took for their own purpose, um, chain of command documents, all those things. And I think Israel will stall on that and hold out as long as they can and try and drag this out. But the IFB are used to this. Like they said, they're they're they're not expecting, you know, any concessions from Israel and they're not expecting to get a hell of a lot from Israel. So, I can see it taking weeks, possibly months before they come back with something definitive and a finding. I mean, this is this is a major step for Australia and this is a major step for any major ally of Israel's to do this to investigate this. This is just something that doesn't happen. So the AFP are acutely aware of this and they will be very sensitive to that fact and they will cross every tea and dot every eye before they hand down any finding to the minister or any you know public finding. >> Yeah. Michael, what do you expect uh will go down here? How long do you think it's going to take if we're ever going to get some justice? Well, for some reason all authorities and western governments Kathy appeared to be intimidated by Israel and the Zami Frankham experience was instructive where Mark Binsken or former public servant was given the independent inquiry role and the state of Israel didn't comply with any demands to produce audio evidence of the drone instructure of the people running the drones which killed the world central kitchen. >> Yes. >> People. So they withheld evidence and so I would be Andrew story excellent story which we published uh he made the very good point that it is a world first and that you know it's a put up or shut up kind of uh proposition here uh said visrog doesn't put up the body cam footage which according and Annie can certainly corroborate this apparently there was a lot of people a lot of cameras around body cams and so on so if they don't provide that well people can draw their own conclusions But I don't think they they will or if they do it may be docked because that's that's the track record of non-complying. The other point is that it was an action which took place in international waters. It was a crime on the high seas effectively. So if they committed one crime, why would why would they be shy about withholding evidence? So I'm not hopeful there'll be any cooperation there. Uh I don't think there'll be any at all. Andy, could you corroborate that that you saw a lot of cameras around and people wearing body cams or >> uh we were being filmed the whole time. So in the prison boat already where I sit before we were there for 3 days, we were constantly being filmed and photographed. Um and when I got on the port, I didn't really see anything anymore because we were sort of so pushed into one position or spot. But there was they were obviously filming everything all the time and taking photos quite openly and deliberately um and moments that I thought was strange because they were you know they were obviously um not positive photos in relation to what they were doing to us. Um yeah I I'm not sure. Strangely enough, I saw a video this morning um that I hadn't seen before because I hadn't been aware so much of what happened with um Ben Gavier, but there was one video section with Ben Gavier that was a shot which was actually I think on our boat which wasn't in the prison. >> So it wasn't at the port, it was actually on the prison boat and that was where you could see containers and so that's obviously come from their footage. So they have that footage and it's readily available and they put it in in obviously that um section that he'd played to the Israeli media. He'd given that footage to the Israeli media to brag about, you know, being on the >> court. So it's there. They can't deny that it's there. They've got heaps of it. Um they won't show it. I don't think, as Michael says, I don't think they'll comply. I don't think they'll give us anything. But I think it's up to the Australian government to push them to do that. And if it doesn't do that, then it needs to get them out, you know, get rid of Hillel Newman and start to put pressure on the Israeli government. Um, or the Zionist government, shall I call it? >> Yes. >> Step number one. The rest is so much to handle in how we sort of deal with Zionism in our midst. Um, >> yes. Of course, we've seen much more not only recorded but published, [laughter] you know, of people being murdered. Um, awful things, even children. Look, um, you you just mentioned someone who had been killed today. Was it today or yesterday? You wanted to talk about that person. Oh, I just wanted to I was just wanting to sort of say that I think we should dedicate this this interview to a guy called Ahmed Whisam who was a 25year-old journalist who worked for Alazer and he was murdered the day before yesterday. And so that brings up you know about 200 journalists that have been murdered already. >> 300 >> 300 sorry I think this was the ninth Alazer journalist that had gone. his brother >> had been um targeted also a journalist but not with Alazer had been targeted a few weeks earlier and also killed. So it's just this ongoing um we need to keep remembering that nothing has changed that the war is still ongoing that you know 10 people were murdered just yesterday in Gaza. So I just wanted to bring that up. though. >> Yeah. Michael, have you got anything else in the pipeline about U Gaza? Annie and I had a chat the other night at Mary Costakitus' award ceremony where you shed some light on just I think it'll be worth exploring again for all of us because my my question to you then was just informally how could you describe what's the motivation what's behind how can one group of people being these IDF people um treat another group of people who were physically non-threatening towards them obviously ideological adversaries and enemies of a sort, but certainly no physical threat. Peace activists, how could they treat people so badly? And I just wonder whether maybe you could go into the psychology of that. What you thought again for all of us, what you thought, I mean, is the explanation for this kind of behavior. Um, it's a very long explanation and I won't go into the history of Zionism because I think you all probably know that. But what has happened is that um, having a place that's so-called a homeland has turned a bunch of people into a form of beastiality that I've never seen before. I think it was Moa. Yeah. Alon, who used to be um a former member of the defense force, even said recently that what he's seen is the Holocaust in reverse. So I was speaking um earlier to someone else or I think when I first came about the sense of um hate and um murderous intent of these young Israeli soldiers that were in front of us that seemed to come out of somewhere that didn't seem human anymore and was quite frightening. And the only thing I could think of when I saw them was um images of the Holocaust that I'd seen as a child and I saw many of them because we were standing with our hands up and I felt as if they were recreating the Holocaust. I think what's happened in Israel is that there's been a reverse dramaty in which um the sense of trauma and the sense of hatred towards people who have always considered the Jews as the other. It's a retribution not only to the whole world but in particular to the the idea of them as being otherred. So now they've taken the supreme position in this othering and made the Palestinians the kind of homoasa if you know what that term means. The one that is um to be destroyed not to have any the person who you kick out of um [clears throat] the city and don't give any more aid to and everyone has the right to kill them. So this means that you see people under you as less than you. >> So my idea is that um we're seeing a kind of the manipulation of Israeli children, youth from kindergarten on is to turn them into hating machines. The world is against them. All Arabs hate them. And it's not just the Palestinians. All Arabs hate them and want to kill them. and the Palestinians are the worst and they are lower than low and they never did anything with their land and we find them despicable. It's not so difficult, I think, for, and this seems awful to say, for Jews, um, to see particularly black people as as, um, they have a sort of there's a racist tendency within within all communities, I think. So it I don't know if it was an easy um [clears throat] easy methodology to use the Palestinians as their point of hate, but they it it was a way of um creating someone so despicable that they could feel themselves above them because I think there's a sense of also um you start to hate yourself if you've always been seen as despicable. And so there's a sense of self-hate um in in Jews as well. self- loveve and self-hate. The whole story about being the chosen people is always matched with the other side of the story. So, you know, this is sort of I'm not a psychologist and I'm trying to psychoanalyze something that I don't really know, but I'm just trying to put my personal experience of what I had on the boat into some kind of frame that makes it real and that we can sort of start to see what's happening to these people because they're also people. They're not just robots, although they seem like it. And how, you know, to try and understand how this happens to humans, you know, who were earlier our family, earlier our friends, earlier part of the people we considered as our community to turn into such beasts. And it goes back again to the Holocaust. We thought the same with the Germans. [sighs] You know, I could go on about this forever, so I don't know if you want to ask me any questions further. I think what's crucial, Annie, is you know what has been cited in South Africa's case at the ICJ and uh you know one of the conditions for um being convicted of genocide is the expression of genocidal intent. And so the the reference uh to Palestinians as human animals and you know the the somewhat um well acceptable notion of cutting off fuel, food, water, medicine, you know, as well on top of a whole lot of other things. But you know, using starvation as a weapon of war. I mean what happened to you guys if you consider all that? You got off lightly. Um, I should say a lot of a lot of you [laughter] guys have been saying that. Um, but it's pretty consistent. >> We did. Yeah. I think um yeah, it's of course we got off lightly and so it's hard to talk about what happened to us in light of what we know happens to the Palestinians. >> But um it's always been a genocidal nation. Um it was always the intention to colonize and get rid of the Palestinian people right from the word go with Zionism. We know that from you know from right back to Herzel's time and right back to Bianberg who said um you know we need to we need to exterminate whatever's on there. It was a Terranolius as far as the um Israelis were concerned or they weren't Israelis then even as far as the British was concerned. So it's always been the intention. It's always >> it's not it's not particularly the Palestinians though. They just happen to be the neighbors because the other neighbors, the Lebanese, I mean the conduct is becoming very similar, isn't it? >> Of course, but now >> land borderless countries land it, >> limitless land. >> That's but that's secondary I think to the original intention of Zionism. What came later was then the religious intention of Zionism which was a sort of afterthought. you know, Zionism had long been in progress. People had been moved there already in the, you know, 192. There was groups of people taken there, um, people from Europe. Um, the religious intention was a sort of like a, you know, an opportunism to create something more because it could have been Israel, but it could have been North Africa and it could have been Australia. So, >> so that's something that's come on the top of it. It's a it's it's like a fury. >> I'd like to just throw a question at all of you now and it it's I guess it's more general and very topical. Um and it's relevant to ask you guys. What do you think's going to happen with the war because a major issue between the US and Iran, a major issue for [snorts] Iran is Lebanon that the aggressions against South Lebanon stop. I mean, it just it just doesn't it doesn't seem to me to be a surprising thing or a wrong thing that one country could care about the survival, the well-being of another, but we do. Um, but a lot of people don't and borders would seem to discourage that patriotism and the lot. What do you think? Uh, is there hope that Israel will begin to recede in terms of its aggression? So, where do you think this is going to lead? Michael, I'll go to you first because I know you you're busy and need to leave. Well, Kathy, it appears to be there's a bit of an estrangement going on between Trump and Israel at the moment. And there's a there's great deal of bad words coming out of the Israeli uh authorities about uh Trump backing away from full and total war with Iran. Melanie Phillips was on today saying there was only one one option to boots on the ground and to keep going. And so their more um aggressive spokespeople are all very disappointed with Trump, angry with him. On on Tuesday, uh the UN's putting its report out on Israeli torture and murder of Palestinian children. >> Yeah. >> And they've collected they put it all together. There's been a few a bit of this going on in independent media and and in one of the Swedish or one of the Scandinavian publications they did a big investigation but there's never been one from the UN it's particularly about the IDF deliberately targeting children now with each one of these things that comes out um the flatillaa of course the terrible things which Annie and her colleagues endured you know this is why it was so weird like knowing that all these people go back to their countries and report what had happened. It seems to be a mass delusion, psychotic event because you would have known. There must have been the chain of command must have been in the picture. The person giving the orders must have known that, you know, this was going to happen and they'd be getting bad press. So, there's a sort of a there's a it's a game of chickens going on with the whole world. to say how it's they're saying to the world, >> how much can you guys take before you finally do something? I mean, it's kind of like it's a risk do or die kind of situation. Now, when the UN comes out, that'll be another damning indictment of Israel's treatment of other people, in this case, children. Um, [sighs] so it's only going one way and it's very hard to see how it's going to end, but it can't, you know, America clearly can't isn't going to go back. Well, it may go back into the war with Iran, but it hasn't got the appetite for it. The economic damage is too high. So, that is strange as Israel. That puts them out on a bit of a limb. So, who knows where it's going to end, but you would have to think now that the the worm has turned slowly and finally despite all the graphic visual evidence we've had and all the words out of the Israeli leadership admitting uh intent to genocide by Ben and Smodrich and so on admitting it and all the telegram footage and all the Israel, you know, it would seem a slam dunk that it's a genocide and that's why when Annie was speaking before, I mean, the one thing never again. I mean the paradox it's brutal. The paradox of this is brutal. So people are on to it. There's a very high awareness around the globe now and about the suprem toxic mix of supremacy and victimhood and politically they're corned. I don't see where they can go. I mean it's it's there has to be some kind of end to it and it it has to be the collapse of the project which is Zionism. I would have thought it has to be roundly rejected by everybody as a as a bad political venture without trying to implicate it in religion and everything else. And um who knows how it's going to end, but it's certainly the worm has turned. And with each piece of confounding new evidence, the ICJ is still yet to take its next significant action. >> Yeah. >> Um Netanyahu is getting increasingly um ostracized at home politically. You know, there are very strong calls for him to go now. and he goes he goes down for fraud probably if if he can't keep his wars going. So it this looks like it's going to be an ugly end for him probably fairly soon I would thought. >> Yeah. Although from listening to Napali Bennett he has almost promised to be worse. Um although I don't know. It all depends on whether Israel attacks the big guy Iran. It's all too easy to attack the little guys. But if they attack and then Iran retaliates and then will the US come in and protect Israel, if Israel finds itself on its own, that may be pretty much the beginning of the end. Um, you just got to get along with people type of thing. Um, [laughter] go to the naughty corner. Um, Annie, your thoughts, please. Um, I'm happy to hear, Michael, that you think positively about the future. I don't feel that I don't think Israel is going to change. I think if it has uh a falling out with America, so be it. That will change certain things. But I don't think it's going to stop Israel's devastation of Gaza and its attempt to wipe out Gaza because it doesn't nothing will stop it now. [gasps] Um, I hate to say that that gives me a racing heart, but um, I I I think it's so surreptitious in the way it keeps on setting up killing machines within Gaza uh, that we've been hearing about and also will probably do so in Lebanon. I can't see it ever giving up. Well, not in this near future giving up on Gaza. So I think it really still has to come not just from a breakup between America and Israel but from the international community. >> Um and of course the JC depositions put in there will take forever. Um it's also you know interesting to note that the IO has killed more children than any other country this year but I think that came out from the report that you were talking about Michael. And it's getting worse. And we're not saying anything. I mean, it nothing is happening. People are being executed now because we're allowed, Israel is allowed to execute political prisoners without having them go to court. And they have been and are being executed. So there's no voice speaking up for this. So I can't see the whole judicial system in Israel is based as a sort of a a fixture of this killing machine. So just changing Netanyahu is not going to stop this and people like Smatri and Ben Gavir will still be members of parliament. So they're going to if not if Netanyahu goes, they're going to have to sort of come to some other kind of right-wing parliament. Um, so yeah, I also think the things aren't going to change in Australia either because the Zionist movement is so heavily embedded in Australia. So what's happened is amazing that we've even got Pennywong as far as we have and that we have the AFP um interested in looking into what went on. Um but at the same time the IHR model um of anti-semitism is being adopted further every day and consequences of that are being seen every day which means that our whole society in Australia is going to be more and more under the thumb of the Zionist movement. So that in itself, you know, it's another another ball to throw up of of, you know, Zionist hedgeimonyy within our country. And also, you know, within the world, we're not the only country that's being manipulated um by Zionist infiltration who have infiltrated into politics. There's France, there's Italy, there's Germany, you know, there's America, of course, the major. So, >> sort of see what's going on. >> Yeah, Andrew, the um Australian government of course continues to ship parts of weapons >> to Israel. Uh Britain has also been involved in the surveillance uh from above and giving targeting information. You've got Palunteer Technologies which isn't even American. It's a private company um evolving from the American government evolving from DARPA but you know giving targeting information making the killing more and more efficient and you know this shortening the decision making time. Now I read that the global flatillaa activists say when governments fail we sail. Um, do you think that the Australian government looking at the broader picture is really going to get justice for these people and uh, will it ever happen again? >> I certainly think uh, with Penny Wong uh, admitting publicly on the record in the Senate estimates that she believed these women and then admitting it privately to them that she did. and she's since come out and uh pulled the Israeli ambassador into line and said what he had said is inappropriate. That that is that's brand new for Australia. We've never had a government official do that. I mean, we had back in 2003 and then in 2010 when they used forged Australian passports to commit murders over in the Gulf States, even then we didn't expel diplomats. We didn't have investigations. So this is like we said like the Michael West media article said this is kind of world first. This is earth shattering stuff. So we've put our highest police force with one of their highest officers in charge of an international investigation. That's not something to be sneezed at. That's that's that's something major. So and then they you know it's [clears throat] their job their obligation to report to the government their findings. what the government does with that, [clears throat] whether they take a soft hand or whether they decide that Australian uh activists being sexually assaulted, being physically assaulted, being kidnapped on the high seas with an act of piracy in international waters is something we need to take up with Israel. You would assume that would at the least mean the expulsion of the ambassador. So one of their closest partners that >> is sometimes you only need to take one pebble out of the wall for the pressure to build up and all the rest to collapse. We're hoping that's the first pebble because you know it's the arc [snorts] of the moral universe is long but it bends towards justice and our job is to bend that bastard back in the direction of justice. And that's what we're trying to do. And Penny Wong taking the step that she's taken that is the first pebble in the wall. If that >> proves to be an investigation that finds an adverse finding against Israel and we expel, you know, someone or some people or or or we take action against Israel, that is the first pebble in the wall >> and that's a very important pebble to take out that leads to the dam breaking. So, >> you know, empires come and go. >> That's true. In relation to your question earlier about the war, look, [clears throat] it's a war America cannot win, could never win. 17 intelligence agencies in America told their president, "Do not do this. We cannot win. We're on a hiding to nothing." >> He went ahead. I don't know whether it's to do with the Epstein files or or Netanyahu in his ear or whatever, but you just look at the outcome of that. This is this is what America managed to do in the space of 3 months. They've committed a minimum of hundred billion dollars towards the war which they've lost comprehensively. They're now 300 billion to a reconstruction fund to Iran. >> They pretty much every base in the Gulf has been destroyed. And every country in the Gulf is going to say we've had America here for 40 years because you guaranteed our safety and security. That that disappeared overnight because Isra because because uh you know Iran can fire on us. America's lost any power that it had in the Gulf as well. So, you know, America, it comes down to, like, as Michael said before, a game of chicken. Is America going to pull the pin on Israel or is Israel going to still call the shots? Because I don't even think if you change Trump, there's a split hair between the Democrats and the Republicans these days. They're both in the pay of the Zionist machine in America. So, I think you'll probably still find obviously a level of support for Israel, but is it enough? Is the£10,000 gorilla going to be there saying we will support you in anything you do or is our support conditional? Because, you know, it only one little straight of Horus and and America's like brought to its knees. So look, I think the economic argument at some point will outweigh the the argument that um it needs to continue supporting Israel. And Israel is a country of 9 million people. It's nothing without America. Israel's gone as a project without America's support. Iran could blow it off the map in a day and every Gulf state, too. Iran is nothing to be sneezed at. So Israel knows that, the Gulf States know that. America knows that. Israel would want to tread very carefully and keep its benefactor in the United States very close >> otherwise it becomes in a perilous position as well. >> Yeah. Well, 9 million people and a couple hundred nukes. Uh that's one thing we have to consider. >> Yeah. Well, that's that's always the option. They've got that. They've got that there as an option that if the jets hitting the fan and they think the state of Israel is in danger enough that they will fire them at every country on the planet. London, Paris, New York, you name it. They have somewhere between 80 and 400. We don't know because they're the only country in the world that won't say how many they have, but we know they have between 80 and 400. So >> the world knows that, too. That's why we tread carefully around Israel. >> Yeah. So, yes, there's an existential crisis there as to who blinks first, but Israel plays the long game. They they've seized 20% of Lebanon, and they're never giving it back. You know, they've taken the golden heights with a new uh Islamic regime that's in Syria now, which is a puppet of America, former ISIS leaders. They're never giving that back. They've taken Gaza, that's never coming back. They're taking by death by a thousand cuts the West Bank, and that's never going to be given back. This is the Greater Israel project we're dealing with now. So, it's just death by a thousand cuts. They're just it's just the creep. So, yeah, where where does it stop? We're hoping with what we do and the great work of people like Annie and the people that put themselves in danger to like I say pull the first pebble out of that wall um will hopefully lead to you know change change and and and and bringing about change because Israel is only there as a construct of the West and if America and the West no longer support Israel and what they're doing Israel as a project is finished. So >> it's literally up to us Western governments. >> Annie, I hope you don't have to do this again, but you know, would you would you was it enough of a deterrent for you to be so well treated >> tomorrow? If if I could, I will definitely do it again. Um, I think it's right. We look at the long game, but we as activists play the short one. So, we have to go as long as there's something to go for. and every child that's murdered and every um you know lack of food that's not the aid that's not coming the destruction of the country the you know continuation of Israel to devastate and take over Lebanon and take over soon it will go for Syria we we can feel that if it can and you're right maybe things will stop and things the people will come out come out and a little bit of water will flow but it's still going to go on so we have a lot of work to I'm coming with you on the next one, Annie. >> Oh, please do. That would be amazing. >> Yeah. >> Thank you. Thank you. >> Well, look, thank you so much for talking to me today. Um, and that was great. That was great to hear your story and I'm sure there was so much more to tell. Um, but I hope it goes well the investigation. I hope it is the first and um, we we can stop worrying about all this. Thank you. So, >> okay. Thanks for >> Thank you and goodbye. >> Thanks Michael. Thanks. >> Annie, are you a member of Jews Against the Occupation 48, the Australian Organization? >> Yeah, I am. Um, I have a t-shirt to prove it. >> Oh, very nice. >> And actually, we had a flag hung on our boat, the FileTo. I'm also a member of Ladu Collective in Melbourne. I also had a t-shirt of theirs but not with me. And it was actually the loud Jew collective that got me into the flotilla. They were asked by the flatilla to provide um or to to see if someone from their >> organization wanted to go and so I was the lucky one. >> You stepped up. >> I stepped up. They would have all wanted to step up but hey it ended up being me. [laughter] >> I guess you were pretty nervous but pretty afraid. But um yeah, I mean you just have to think of what's happening to those kids. And we had we've heard reports from doctors that it's been quite systematic that on certain days they go for the head, other days they go for the chest, other days they go for the groin. Um it's something I heard someone say it's about uh you know solving the problem um at the root because these youngans will grow up and they'll become terrorists as well. >> It's exactly that and it's so see-through, isn't it? It's really what's been going on. They've been deliberately targeting children and targeting young people to exterminate, you know, the the young generation. Sorry. [laughter] >> Okay. I I think that you know maybe one more question. Um >> Annie, were you at um town hall um in February? Do you know when >> it was a very nice uh uh protest there um meeting and uh which ended in broken bones? >> Uh we covered it. We have full coverage, full two-hour coverage shot with four cameras which uh and in fact some of our footage already has evidence >> in an um in the court and uh but I was just wondering if you were there and you you know happened to get caught in that kettle um after the meeting ended. No, I was in Melbourne and then I at that de at our demonstration which was very peaceful and also pretty large, the Melbourne demonstration against Herzog and I actually came up that night and um Jao um d had made really large posters of Herzog and all um and on the back there was a poster of Anne Frank and um I can't you >> Hendri up. I think >> Andridge up. So, sorry. And um we drove that around the city um the next few days. But um no, I wasn't there. I did go to the court session the other day. >> Yeah. >> Um to see what was happening where there's still they've got still got 24 people that been charged >> and that will have to go before the court. >> Yeah. >> Probably sometime next year. So yeah, I think >> have you seen the taken will be great. >> Have you seen the film um you know that the last hours >> up film? Yeah, I have seen that. >> Yes, it's heartbreaking, isn't it? >> Yeah. You know, when you it really takes you inside the terror of a child at being not understanding why it is being targeted and you know for so long, so many torturous hours >> uh you know these children that were randomly shot in the head, the chest, uh they well those shot in the head probably died instantly, I'd say, but um you know maybe not uh you know the terrible suffering but that girl thought that she was going to be rescued and she was just begging for it. >> Innocence of her was so beautiful in comparison to the absolute evil that was going on around her. She was just a, you know, a flower, a victim. >> Yeah. And what was beautiful as well were was the the efforts that were being made to save her. >> I mean, they're still good people. Uh, and just, you know, this unthinkable crime that was being perpetrated. There were over 300 bullets sent into that car. Her whole family >> died around her. >> And there is so much evidence. This is evidence as well. And there's so much talk still from the Zionists in Australia talking about, you know, the flutilla, how we're all going for no reason because there is no murder, the children aren't being killed in, you know, the Australian Zionists who still believe that no children have been harmed in um in Gaza. So there's a real discrepancy about reality going on and it's hard to know how that happens. You know, the film itself is a testimony. >> It's with live um sound >> and some live footage, but you know, it's just amazing to know how people's in a society like ours can turn off. >> Yeah. >> I find it really depressing. I can't I can't say >> thanks for we could go on. >> I feel like we're losing grip, you know, on this world. This is not the world >> that at least in the west we grew up in. We were sort of >> a lot, you know, well well from way back the media wouldn't show terrible photos. You know, there was that policy in case women would faint. Uh but you know since the the internet um that I remember asking I interviewed Daniel Ellburg um for 5 hours in fact and uh I remember talking to him about the internet how it enables people to step inside these stories and see it happening as if in real time it's a property of audio visual every time it plays back. And I asked him, "Daniel, do you think that the internet has increased our capacity for empathy towards people we've never met?" And um well, I'll ask you the same question rather than telling you what he said. >> Um to tell you the truth, I don't because the internet's now gone so far that you can step into wherever you want to step into. And if you don't want to step in, you just don't. And this is what's so confusing because that's why I say there's so much evidence out there and yet people are stepping don't see it. They don't step into that world >> because the internet's manipulated. You know, you get what you want to see. >> So >> information is siloed, isn't it? >> Towards particular groups, particular persuasions. >> We wouldn't be in this situation. >> Yeah. So it's, you know, maybe it's just human nature to look away or to have to look away even though things are put up there in your face. And it's also the manipulation. Someone manipulates who does the internet. So you know, which is an algorithm. Simple as that. >> Yes. But then the other >> Yeah. But the other side of it, you know, the big picture side of it, you know, it's that question of what is happening to international law. It's uh you know the United Nations you know the Geneva convention the law of the sea I mean all these things are just uh dissipating it seems >> but they never really existed I mean the law of the sea is also something that's really controversial and that's what so we can say that Israel um had no right to be in international waters but Israel's got a whole case going with the UN with its lawyers saying that we feel threatened and therefore we have to take our armies towards where the threat is and if that threat happens to be you know 600 nautical miles from Israel that's fine. So they're challenging there is no real um international law about what happens in international waters that people are obliged to follow. you just keep on putting up a challenge to that law. So, it's all just >> it's all a little bit of a game. >> It's interesting, you know, the notion of Israel being borderless, a borderless country. Lebanon is not a borderless country. I mean, know it's the other side. Um and uh but you know this notion uh getting back to what you're saying is uh that you know Israel claims the right to create a buffer zone by displacing 1 million people destroying all of their homes. I mean it is it it really is a rogue state that is triggering so much you know of the dissolution of international law >> and a buffer zone to what you want to know. So it's a buffer zone to the word Hamas. So Hamas is the boogeyman here. >> Yeah. >> Um you know everything centers around Hamas. So that's what they're creating a buffer zone for. [snorts] But you know, Hamas is there because they're there. Hmas puts up resistance >> and has become terrorists because they're terrorists. So you know as well exactly >> it's exactly the same. So >> aware of that, you know, they are not stupid. They're very aware of that. >> Yeah. >> And but they use it as it's a it's a bait. >> Yeah. bait and an excuse. Yeah. >> Well, if I may use a a Jewish word, I I hope it ends in is it shalom is for peace? Is that the word for peace? >> Shalom. Yeah. Yeah. Peace. Yeah. We hope so. But, you know, we still have to save every life we can. And I don't know. Hopefully. I mean, I was thinking I've just been thinking about what um was said, you know, the wall and how it might come down if when people's taken out, but it might take a long time, but I suppose we need to think about that. Things will change and >> things were better before at one point and they may get better again. >> I don't think they've ever been good since Israel. I mean, in terms of that conflict, >> there has never been a good moment in that conflict. >> Yes. I guess so. >> I guess so. >> To escalate and yeah, the world might get We had a good run. I as a 71y old have had a reasonable run. >> Yeah. >> Of no conflict. We were lucky. We were born after the Second World War. >> Yes. The baby boomers. >> The baby boomers. Yeah. >> Okay. All All the best, Annie. >> Yeah. Thank you very much. It's been really nice to talk to you. Thanks for taking the time. >> All right. >> Bye. Bye. >> Speak soon.