Confronting Don Lemon On Failed Elon Musk Interview

the president of the United States says CNN's Don Lemon the dumbest man on television so you said if they kill the company it's them but doesn't the buck out with you choose your question kly there's 5 minutes left that interview speaks for itself I actually think I did a really good job Don Lemon says his first guest was supposed to be musk himself but after the interview musk cancelled his show yesterday CNN parted ways with anchor Don Lemon in a statement CNN CEO Chris lick thanked Don for his contributions over the past 17 years Tucker Carlson happened to be fired on the exact same day which is pretty crazy de that was coincidence so don thank you so much for coming on the iced coffee hour you a host of CNN for nine years I'm sure a lot of people recognize your face and definitely your voice first in foremost nine years on the in prime time but 17 years 17 years in total right first and foremost how do you look 35 when it says you're 58 are you actually 58 it's a lot of hair and makeup is it really no I I don't know I mean I feel like I look old I thought I like I always looked like a baby um until I was about 40 people thought they would say oh that guy what what is he doing on CNN what's he doing on television like they hired this 20-year-old kid and I'm like I'm not a 20-year-old kid is there like a sunscreen I do coconut oil right out of the shower like my entire body entire body yeah but I do the there's a pump and I just put like coconut oil all over and then some people can do it some people can't and make May clog your pores but I do coconut oil definitely got to try that out after this maybe it's black I don't know but I don't know whatever it is I'm going to start doing it okay so being a part of Legacy Media and when I say that I mean like the biggest part of media do you think that it exists just to divide people and profit or do you think that it actually exists to provide accurate and honest opinions well I can speak to where I was which was at CNN and I think it was accurate and honest um really just informing people it wasn't it's not really about opinions it wasn't about opinions although everyone comes to the table with a point of view right you have your own you have your own I have mine um but I I think for the most part people have good intentions and it's to inform people and if it's opinion you know uh television or or media I think most people do that there are some people who are disingenuous about it and some people who go over the top but yeah do you get to choose what you cover so curious about I guess yes but generally what's in the Zeitgeist what's being covered is if I was on um any cable or any broadcast network today I'd have to cover the Trump trial for good reason it's a former president who is in a courtroom facing criminal charges I mean who would have thought we would have been at this point and then in an election year where he's running again but do you think that it's a smart business move for these huge media companies to try to divide people because you know that you can get more attention you know fear-mongering and creating divisiveness amongst different people than you can just POS like putting out positive news all of the time well I don't know if I don't know if most of the networks are trying to divide people I know that there's one at least and who you know is very divisive and doesn't have to operate on facts but for the most part I don't think they're trying to divide I just think that um it's sort of the it's the culture now you know there's been a culture created whether it's the former president attacking the institution of Journalism whether it's satire you know satirical comedy like The Daily Show you know making fun of the media and I think that people are just so divided in their political beliefs and their and and their um personal beliefs it seems divided where if you watch something and it doesn't confirm what you believe then you think it's divisive most people tune in they narrow cast and they tune into the the networks or the podcasts or the streaming shows or whatever it is that sort of confirm their beliefs and they just get reconfirmed and reconfirmed and reconfirmed people live in Echo Chambers and if you if you go out of that Echo chamber then you feel like you're being attacked and you would think that that institution is attacking do you feel like media could exist in the middle because it seems as though there's I feel be a d what is the middle though I guess a very neutral perspective where someone says hey here's what this side is saying here's what this side is saying and here's kind of the I think you have to avoid a lot of adjectives because if you look at media and especially headlines it's always like the bloodthirst of this person you know the vitri it's it always has some sort of adjective that spins good or spends negatively I don't know I don't know about that I think like I see a lot of that in print media blogs social media where you know this person owned that person and you know such and such destroys or whatever and blah blah blah ends you know that person's career and then you watch it and you're like well none of that happened but I don't really see that happening in mainstream media I mean I know there's a lot of criticism of mainstream media could be done better especially cable news I didn't really see this divisive part of cable news until Fox came along and I thought generally that CNN who was kind of the only game in town did its best to be that neutral you know um media organization and then you know MSNBC came along and there was on the left they figured out a route on the left and then you know Fox came along and they figured out a route on the right and they pretty much you know that's how they program but I thought in general that CNN tried to do that and I I thought I think the networks said I think ABC CBS NBC all try to do that it's just that we live in such divided times because I think it's our politicians who divide us and it's our politicians who attack media if the media is not reporting something that's favorable to them or if the truth is not on their side then they attack that organization and then people get into their mind that that organization is biased when they're actually operating on on facts my one experience has been with Fox News and that was Jesse Waters and his team reached out to me and this must have been about 6 months ago they reached out because I made a video on real estate and they wanted my opinion on Wall Street buying up homes and raising the prices I had never really watched Fox News I had seen headlines so I I read AR watch I don't watch the news he's very outside of politic yeah to me this is it's it's so foreign to me so I've not watched Fox News but I see the Articles come up if it's something Finance related so when they reached out I thought this would be fantastic I going do a ton of research and they're going to ask me about Wall Street buying homes and I'm going to be honest and I did a ton of research and I came came up with with notes of what I was going to say and I've never had this before where they come to your house with like a van and they put a little earpiece in so I could hear like everything Studio exactly and so they set everything up and I could listen to what was going on beforehand they're talking about Wall Street buying up all these homes and raising the prices and they had all these Millennials on the on you know being interviewed I can't afford houses uh they're so bad wall Street's buying these houses so he asked me what's going on and so I told him from what I could find large companies only make up 2.8% of all real estate purchases less than 3% of all homes were sold to large investors uh and private Equity is only responsible for 1.6% of all rental homes and I said the real issues were low interest rates and the fact that zoning makes it impossible to build and that's what was keeping housing prices high it's not Wall Street buying houses and they ended up cutting the entire segment and so watching this and they didn't tell me was going to be cut so I sat there for the whole hour and I watched all the Fox News and I was shocked at how divisive they made it seem and everything was an enemy it was about this person is bad and we're on the right side and this is the enemy monging yeah I couldn't believe but to be fair there was breaking news that ended up occupying that slot which was VI's car got into a crash oh someone rear ended someone rear ended VI's car and it well I can see why they cut it then I mean we're being sarcastic but yeah in a way you have to give it to them because uh they're Unapologetic they know who Their audience is and they serve it up all day they know that fear is going to get people to watch and sit there in front of the television and not change the channel do you think the good would be good for business no that's what I said they know their audience so it's not good for business and also they know their audience is conservative they are they they say we're conservative news organization they cater to conservatives the best way to keep people engaged is to make them afraid I think that the argument against Fox News though is a completely different argument against the other Legacy Media because the argument against Fox News would be that they you know they exist to divide and to only push out a certain agenda and the argument the other ones is that it it it's an sort of an echo chamber of well I would say sure it's an echo chamber but I think it's really bad when you have networks that purport to be independent or they purport to be right in the middle but they clearly swing to a certain side and that's what I see with a lot of the other networks such as like CNN ABC NBC NPR all of those networks I feel like if you mapped it all out and you got the general opinion of Americans they would say okay all of those ones are on the left but they claim to be independent so you have all these people that go and they think they're getting objective in the middle media when act in actuality they're just getting into an echo chamber and they completely throw it the other side of the equation well I know that NPR is going through its thing with the guy who quit and and the whole Dei thing that's a whole another subject I didn't work there so I don't know I can only speak for where I worked I did not in any any editorial uh at the network I did not a liberal bias there were people who were part of my team who were very conservative and uh and we got conservative points of view in the last I don't know decade or so maybe a little bit longer people have especially this new Maga wing and the Tea Party attacking um the institution of Journalism and especially attacking CNN because they know and I'm I don't even work there anymore but I have to take up for them it's not real unless CNN says it you can hear it on any other channel any other News Network and unless CNN say says it it's not real and so if you don't have the truth on your side and you know that that network has such credibility that people are going to listen to them what do you do you you undermine them you try to attack them for their bias and people start to believe that and I'm not saying that you know there aren't some hosts who are liberal and some who are what but that's that's how the world is and I think people should bring their points of view to the table but if you're doing an editorial if you are giving your opinion if you're stating your point of view then you need need to make it obvious and I think that line has been blurred you don't know the difference between an opinion person a correspondent a contributor and an analyst and I think that in order to fix it we need better media L we need media literacy but before we get into that I have learned so much about entrepreneurship and building businesses 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the scientific surveys it's actually the opposite of what you say cenan has huge brand identity and huge a huge trust Factor not only in America but in the world it's the largest news organization I believe it's largest which survey like who conducted those Sur I don't know if you look at when when folks do surveys about Media or brand loyalty and they do it all the time they do study groups they do test groups they do focus groups and you can look at you know like rasm or do aole and I'm not sure if that's a legitimate one or uh ipsos or any of those folks will do a neelson would will do a poll so it's organizations like that but CNN is among the most Trust news organizations now overall it seems like we looked at a a survey that found that trust in mainstream media is declining do you have any idea why that is I just said I think it's one because uh institutions are being attacked uh two I think because we need media literacy uh three I think it's because the the news has become formulaic and people know what they're kind of going to get and you don't really get down into the weeds like you can on this podcast and you can an independent media also they are relying upon advertisers it is become um anod where you know if you if you really want to step out and say something that will that has a different perspective um people are afraid to do that now because they're afraid of getting fired they're afraid that that you know the some Overlord or boss or some um shareholder in the company is not going to like it and then they're going to have you know they're going to have it out for you and you're going to be gone I think that's why I think it's just become really an D and it's become what do you think what do you think and no one challenges anyone part of me thinks that I shouldn't say no one but rarely do people challenge part of me thinks that there's just more options for news that's part of and I get a lot of my news from Reddit uh and it's been I know I know but it's it's one of those things where you could read different perspectives and if something is posted you get like all these opinions people onit can be it's like the extremes of the spectrum you get really smart people and then really Dum on ends and so I like read that's good I agree I think that you should but I think you should get your news from a number of different sources and not just one source you should be on more than just Reddit right because when you're on Reddit you're like reading the do your own research crowd which is not always you know the most accurate yeah I mean usually what I see is like if it's posted on CNBC it's also posted on Reddit it's also posted on Yahoo and they usually link back to right it's not just kind of unsubstantiated claims and stuff always I'm onit so I know I you know there's everything on there but I think you should read the New York Times I think you should read The Wall Street Journal stre Jal I think you should yeah I think you should read the financial times I think you should read LA Times you should read as much as possible I think you should watch CNN you should watch uh MSNBC if you can stomach it I think you can watch Fox I used to watch a lot more of fox but then in the during the magga era I just can't because it's hardly anything that you know is informative it doesn't inform me as as a as a viewer as a citizen I think if Fox News is one of the strongest Arguments for the other side at least you can say that via their viewership and the amount of people that are aware of it I think it's really important to have a really balanced media diet and I wouldn't say to people that they should only really tune into like I don't know who's like a more moderate on the right thing because I feel like they're not very popular right like I think it's important to continually like you watch CNN you watch Fox you watch this and that I agree do you know why you were fired from CNN um not really I don't they didn't give you any reason they don't have to but again that not something that I I would like to discuss but uh no I will just tell you how the let me tell you this how the contracts work in media they can let you go whenever you want when you're contracted they can play you or pay you and so they can come to you at any point and say this isn't working for us we want to take you off the air but we they' got to pay you for the extent of your contract that's kind of it if they want to move the network in a different direction or what have you then they can just let you go would CNN ever compel you to cover certain things in like a more indirect way would you feel pressured to have a certain opinion or to cover certain topics never never and also Tucker Carlson happened to be fired on the exact same day which is pretty crazy think that was coincidence there's theories there's theories online weird you know there's six 365 days in a year right and it just so happens that you and Tucker Carlson fired on the same date what do you think go ahead speak your mind it's okay this I mean do you believe in coincidences sometimes okay sometimes and good you don't want to speak on that I don't I I listen I have no idea I have no I have no idea do I think it was a coincidence I'm not sure about that I'm not so sure it does seem fishy it does I do believe in coincidences though I do think that's possible but sometimes I look I look at the likelihood of like the likelihood on the same day yeah but didn't he get fired first I don't know I don't know that I think maybe the announcement it depends on the announcement but I don't know that cuz it would have been interesting if like they were like okay we want to fire one of these guys like the network wanted to fire them but they were trying to come up with a reason like well if we just do it right here because the other the this network did it to this person it's like okay we can get away with it I don't know I don't know not to get too deep in conspiracy theor look you could you believe that if you want I mean I don't know if you're off on that I can't tell you if you're off on it but yeah it would seem like a good an easy way it's like it would seem convenient wouldn't it now it seems like now X is a big source of news for a lot of people what do you feel like X is doing right in terms of news sources and what are they doing wrong well I think the one thing that X is doing right that I can speak of is the community notes but people don't often read the community notes as often as I always do it's funny I I I look notes I'm like okay I'm going to read that tweet then but I mean but I think people read the Tweet more than the community not and not all of the tweets that have conspiracy theories or lies or attacks or whatever they don't all get community notes I think it's as again it's left up to the community it's not left up to the company the good thing is you they have the readers added context so you can have like anybody in the entire world like as long as you have a big enough I think it's a amount of people need to say okay this needs more context and then it gets flagged in that way the other great thing is that it's open source so you can go and you can actually look at the the way that they decide to community know kind of Open Source you don't know what they're doing with their algorithm you don't know how what they're suppressing you don't know what they're amplifying true that aspect of Twitter is not so you have no I mean you know they could be who knows can they suppress the community notes I have no idea I don't know but I'm just saying that is an issue for all social media companies what they're doing with their algorithms and and people are even if it's open source you still don't know it's still you still don't know what's what's happening with their algorithm so I think that's the one thing that they're doing but it would be I think it would be better if the company actually did it if there were if there was moderation within the company because then it just wouldn't be people's opinions uh and it wouldn't be like Wikipedia where anyone can go in and change your bio and whatever that sort of thing I'm not saying it's good or bad but that's the comparison would you say overall X is a good or a bad place to get information from I don't think it's a good place now I think it it has been in the past and it could be in the future I think it has become a cesspool for um for conspiracy theories mostly on the right like far right conspiracy theories and far right um you know sort of enablers or people who just want to who and and Far Right misinformation why do you think it's more prevalent on X than other platforms because I think X was the first to do the sort of you know um you can sort of post whatever you want um I think that because it is I thought I thought that Twitter had become too toxic for me but then X was just like wow I think it's because you can it's it's kind of the Wild Wild West you can say whatever you want um it it the and when you do that when you don't have moderation when people can be attacked for who they are when people can be lied on and un Ma on mass um you turn off a lot of people and they go away they don't want to be on your platform they come up with other platforms like what is it Instagram thing now threads uh they come up with other platforms so I think a good thing though about X um is that anyone can contribute to any sort of dialogue which is a good and a bad thing right because like you just said you can have extremist people that have a voice but at the same time you have I feel like a majority of people are good and they want to contribute to a productive conversation whereas in other media platforms like especially Legacy Media there's no like checks and balances there's no comment section I've noticed on a lot of articles I was looking through CNN earlier today and there's no place where like you can say oh you know I think this is lacking context I think this is selective journalisming like I think there you don't think that's good because that's that's actually getting rid of the exact thing that you don't like is that well I think it divides people I think comments often divide people I I don't think that um you know a a story on Legacy Media necessarily needs a com the the comments from people you read the story and then you get out of it what you get out of it it gives you the information the facts here's a great example and then it's and then but you don't not everything needs to be commented on but before we get into that as you may have heard me mentioned in previous episodes I recently sprained my ankle playing basketball and I had a book multiple appointments just to get a checked out going through this I realized just how hard it is to get a hold of a new doctor let alone finding a doctor that takes on new patients and is accepting of your insurance that's where our sponsor 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firefighters and teachers and they cited that billionaires pay 8% in tax but the context of that is that that would only be if we tax unrealized capital gains and if you tax if if you look at the tax on earned income they do pay a much higher tax rate but on unrealized capital gains they pay a much lower I think citing that sort of context would be helpful that sort of will not know what unrealized capital gains are or what it means right so um and maybe there should be education about that but in general if you look at what billionaires pay it is a lower percentage obviously they pay more taxes because they have more money to contribute to you know the pool but for the most part I think it's like 13 or 15% for most people or something like that for taxes and 8% for billionaires I just did this as I was doing my research for X as a matter of fact overall they do pay lower percentage in general than um than the average person so I mean my argument would be that gains aren't realized until they are sold yeah and so that's look at the same thing if a teacher buys a house and that house went up 100 grand in value this year that they're not taxed on that and that tax is not taken into consideration but we don't have to go into no listen I'm not going to go because you know more about this than I do but I think that once you're a billionaire you know come on do you do you think I'm just curious do you think people should be billionaires do you think that that should exist it's about capitalism right if if we're going to live in a capitalistic Society then we have to be capitalists right and unfortunately that means they're going to be the halves and the Have Nots how to fix that I don't know I'm not a politician right I'm just a journalist and a host and so I can just sort of tell you how I feel about it but I think that once you reach a certain level of success and income and I'm not a billionaire I I would like to pay you know lower taxes far fewer of my dollars I would like to go to you know out of my pocket but I happen to live in a country that offers people the opportunity people like me and others the opportunity to be able to become successful to be able successful to be able to become wealthy and so if I'm a billionaire I'm going to spend less of my time worrying about you know what percentage of taxes I'm paying and I think that I would spend more of my time being grateful about all the excess money that I have I 100% agree with that I think people need to just honestly every single day recognize over it just like be grateful that we're living here we are so so so lucky even if you're just born in the United States like that is I mean one bigest privileges to that is one of the that could be in the definition of patriotism is realizing that hey look I make a lot of money and I pay a lot of taxes but if I was living somewhere else I probably wouldn't have this opportunity that's true so I may as well help out my fellow man would you consider yourself a patriot absolutely absolutely yeah of course so one thing I found really interesting you said why wouldn't I was that was why would that be a question because a lot of people I feel like nowadays are ashamed to be an American I don't know why I wouldn't be patriotic or be why I would be ashamed my ancestors helped to build this country MH so I'm very proud to be an American part of and living in the place that my ancestors buil I think what you said about not having a comment section or a place where context can be added on Legacy Media I think I would disagree still with that because like you said there are extremists and I don't like that but I think overwhelmingly people are mostly good and the extremism will be pushed to the side as long as there's open dialogue for every sort of opinion well I think there are places where you can go for that I just don't think that you necessarily need everybody commenting on a story about you know um you know charcoal or whatever I'm just saying I just don't think but I think that's one of the reasons why X is continuing continuing to be successful whereas it seems as though Legacy Media is starting to fall you're right no I'm not I'm not saying there shouldn't be comments I'm saying there should be common sense with comments I think that there should also be Humanity in everything that you do I think there should be rules and in everything that you do the the platforms that do the best are platforms that have moderation so I don't think that it should be the Wild Wild West I don't think that you should be able to you know go on X and call me the NW and I think that that probably gets flagged or make you know um derogatory statements or um depict Jews as like big nose and I just don't think that that is I don't think that I feel like a lot of people can see through that or ignore those comments or even they no a lot of people cannot see through that I mean if you if you talk to people who have gone in to shoot up supermarkets or synagogues or churches they'll tell you I became radicalized through social media you can't deny when they put it in their own manifestos if you look at the supermarket shooter in in um in Buffalo I'll tell you that they were maybe they had something else going on in their mind and it would have like well you're making my you're you're you're making my point see through it if you have something going on in your mind you can't see through that it's it's hard for me to wrap my mind around that because obviously I'm not in that sort of position to be to be pushed in a direction from a comet but I feel like if if that's what did it to them there's got to be something else going on in their mind where it would have been if it wasn't that it would be something else and predisposition I get it I agree with you on that but I think we have the wrong idea and wrong definition of what freedom of speech is freedom of speech is about is really about the government it's not about private institutions or private platforms it's really about government organizations and so you know a platform like X or a platform like Facebook or what they are mostly owned it's a private Institution they're not government institions I should say so there are rules There are rules that for you are on what you're on um YouTube YouTubey YouTube has rules you can't do certain things you'll get flagged right or you'll get demonetized those are the rules when you work for a certain company you have rules we have rules in society you have to get a driver's license or you can't drive you got to get you got to get um car insurance or you're not supposed to drive there are rules in society and there should be rules when it comes to platforms as well I don't think that there should be the we have the wrong definition of what freedom of speech is it's not the wild wild west where you can go and you know yell fire in a crowded theater or or whatever so I think we need to figure out what that definition is people need to reassess and read what the actual definition of freedom of speech is and then you'll have an idea that it's not necessarily meant for social media so how do you feel like social media has changed the definition of freedom of speech because people want to be able to to have to go and insult people they want want to be able to go and spread conspiracy theories they want and then they end up with what I call internet brain where everything is dunking on somebody or proving that you're right by owning someone how has it changed the freedom of speech I think it's sort of skewed what we think freedom of speech should be or what it is and when it's really not that go and look at the definition um I would say um do you guys know who Dan Abrams is he's on ABC and Dan has he's has a radio show in Sirius and he owns um Abrams media his dad is one one of the most renowned First Amendment attorneys in in the country he can tell you that we are skewed when it comes to what we what the definition is and the rules are for freedom of speech especially he's been doing a lot of it talking about you know what's happening on college campuses is that it's gone beyond freedom of speech and freedom of expression so I will tell you from my experience in my opinion the main difference with freedom of speech now is that it's dictated largely by algorithms and if you say something that's very controversial it's going to get pushed up by the algorithm because it's going to keep people on platforms longer cck clicks click it's engagement the more people comment on something the more people are going to see it the more outrageous it is the more someone's going to want to engage with it and so freedom of speech is somewhat dictated by how controversial an opinion is and what gets spread the fastest by having a comment removed from a platform is not like violating your right to freedom of speech right you can you can still say whatever you want you can run out on the street and say whatever you want you can write a letter to the you can say whatever you want in the society and you're not going to go to jail for it but you cannot come in here and yell at in a place of business you couldn't come in here and call someone like they would kick you out they'd say get out we don't want your money people have the right to be able to do that platforms have the right to be able to do that and people have the right to not want to participate on that platform advertisers can take their their ad dollars away people can go away in droves and your then your company won't do well and so I think that you know again and we should like we should be more literate about what freedom of speech actually is and what it means although you know what before we go into that there is no better sound than hearing and if you want to hear a bunch more then it's time to get started with our sponsor Shopify for those unaware Shopify is a global e-commerce platform that's 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shopify.com to get your $1 trial period Down Below in the description enjoy and now let's get back to the episode I think my concern with freedom of speech in so far as like the Bill of Rights definition of freedom of speech is that once you start controlling speech then who's controlling it like do they swing a certain way and I know like there's moderation is not control though people are not controlling your spe but is moderation deleting a comment then yeah if it's if it's if it misinforms people and if it is but who's deciding what's misinformation and what's accurate whoever owns that platform can decide it because that's their company whoever because they own it I think we draw the line differently I guess what I'm kind of alluding to is the conversation you had with Elon Musk and him saying that he doesn't want to moderate speech on the platform and you were saying that he should step up and moderate speech more and I see that more so is like removing from Free Speech even if it is something that is aggressive or something that could hurt someone else's feelings or something deemed as misinformation because eventually once enough time passes I think that it would be corrected and people would have a better you misunderstand okay maybe maybe I didn't you know I wasn't precise in my language when I was talking to what I what I was asking Elon Musk is why didn't he abide by the rules of his own platform if you look at the their content rules then it says hate speech shouldn't be there this shouldn't be there that shouldn't be there and it's still on the platform now if Elon Musk with his platform says this is the Wild Wild West we are going to allow every single thing on this platform barring it's illegal okay that's fine but that's not what the rules of his platform says so or say so that that that's why I questioned him and I thought perhaps your business would be in better shape if you look at other platforms who moderate that maybe more advertisers would come back to the platform moderates maybe yes yeah certainly and maybe maybe people could have better Dialogue on your platform and as someone of consequence considering the huge power that he has he's consequential to to society and the huge platform that Twitter is don't you think it be it would be better and it would serve the greater good if there was some content moderation so that more people could actually be involved and take advantage of your platform rather than being turned off by it that's really interesting so I was under the impression that he said hate speech would not get promoted not that it would be removed from the platform entirely and his definition of being promoted was like okay you know it'll end up getting views rather than being something that's shadowbanned because I know that's something like YouTube like you can say some pretty controversial things on YouTube but it gets Shadow banned where it doesn't effectively get a lot of views like for example saying like covid back a few years ago a lot of the times that would get Shadow and it would suppress the views of the video because they didn't want any Co misinformation out there well I think you're again you're proving my they're doing well because they are doing that um I don't and but then you have to think about their algorithm for all platforms what are they suppressing and what are they amplifying so you think that should be public inform should be public information and I I think that um yeah it's probably agre that point and it shouldn't just be them saying Oh it's open source because what does that mean what is that there should be someone who understands that was one of the things I think the argument against that though is that if it's public knowledge what's going to get promoted Ed and what's going to get Shadow banned Bad actors could easily utilize that to take advantage of it and then get all of their that part doesn't have to be public information just what shadow ban like or just what doesn't get promoted if it's open source then it should be open source and there should be folks who can understand how your algorithm works I don't believe that these algorithms are open source and that people understand them social media platforms control them in ways that they want to I don't believe the owners or the managers of these platforms that they're not playing with their algorithms do you think it is a good in favor of what they what their own beliefs do you think it would be a good or a bad thing for Twitter or X to continue to be something like the Wild Wild West I think From elon's perspective he came in analyzed Twitter realized that a vast majority of the employees had donated to democratic candidates and he also realized the hunter Biden laptop story was like completely subdued and it wouldn't get any views and then I think the New York Post was actually suspended or something from from releasing stuff about that and it was deemed as misinformation at the time but then as time continued people like okay well maybe there actually is a little bit of Merit to this his probably argument not to put words into his mouth would be that as soon as there's a governing body to speech it has the opportunity to corrupt well I think that just because you donate to a certain political party it doesn't mean that you're going to operate in business that way doesn't take away your brain or your or your objectivity in a vacuum I would agree because it doesn't I I worked for a company that supported a lot of conservatives I also work for a company that supported a lot of liberals so I don't think that that really has to do anything I think that argument is moot I think that people if they're professionals they they can work in a business and understand the Rules of Engagement and understand what is offensive and what is true and what is false so um I don't I don't buy that whole thing about you know it was left leaning company because Twitter was had a conservative Bend and I would get attacked on Twitter as a crazy whatever even when it was Twitter so I I I don't agree with that what was the rest of your question you said the rest of the question was as soon as there's a governing body to to free speech in general that that governing body can corrupt it has the capacity to now you said just because it's a left leaning company doesn't mean they can't be objective I don't know if it was a left leaning company I don't agree that was a left leaning company okay well just because a left leaning company exists doesn't mean that they can't see what is um like objective versus what is false versus what is you know hate speech versus what is not hate speech um I agree with you like in AAC but at the same time if you look at the incentive structure for a certain company with employees that have a certain opinion the incentive of the opinion if they hold it like true and they think that they should be heard by more people then don't you think that they would feel compelled to a certain direction yeah you can say the same thing I I don't agree with that I I don't agree with that I think that people are professional and they can you know they know how to conduct themselves but you can also say that now as it relates to X which formerly Twitter why should people listen to the news because it does seem like a main source of pain for a lot of people a main source of panic and I think largely to a certain degree people can't do much about the day-to-day aspects of the news do you think it's good for people well listen I think my my media diet has changed since I you know stopped working in cable news I think that you can be informed without being inundated and but I do think that people need to be informed and they need to read and they need to know what's going on in the world so I ultimately I think that the media is a place for good again I keep going back to media literacy you just have to know what is right what is wrong and uh you have to know what you're reading and who's supplying the information why do you think people don't take the time to see the Nuance in what you were just saying I think it has to do with you know this I think it has to do with that you can get your news in as many places as you want you can um you can narrowcast and you get to decide and then you're then and then the algorithm kicks in it puts you in a further into an echo chamber um and so I I think that's I think it's just the proliferation of other places to read and now to read and and to get information so you know what I found really fascinating was when I was watching that interview that you did with Elon Musk I look at the comments and I look at the comments on YouTube and they're all just like extremely pro- Elon and this is posted on your account and same as X I realized the same response on X and then I went to your interview with Brian Tyler Cohen is that his name and all of the comments in there were like Don really like owned Elon and it's it's really surprising to me how two people can watch the exact same thing no spins on it whatsoever and com and draft up two completely different opinions on it well I think that's um you know I did not see I don't really read the comments that much on um on X but the ones that I did read were very positive I've only gotten positive feedback the only people that I've gotten um you know negative feedback from are sort of I call them the business Bros or um like the Elon sycophant or people who are conservative and who are pretending not to be conservative because you know I guess you know I'm a product of uh of um traditional media so they you know they have it out they have it out for me in a in a a certain sense but for anyone to watch that interview and to ask someone about P public statements that they made just to get a sense of what they meant I don't see how anybody can say that that was a gotcha interview or a biased interview it was simply you said this about Dei what did you mean by it I meant this okay there's no there's no there's no you know data information or data or whatever nothing to back it up why do you say it well I don't know I just kind of want to say it or I I don't want it to happen it would be awful if it did happen but that doesn't make sense because that you know I could say well you know man it would be terrible if your hair turned purple and you'd say why are you saying I'm just saying because it would be terrible I'm not saying it's going to happen but it would just be terrible why say it there's a reason that you're saying it and if you're going to put it out there then it should at least be true in your defense what I loved was the fact that you asked very very very hard questions I think that's great you thought those questions were hard I thought they were hard you asked him about his you asked him about like does he think he could not get government clearance because of his like you know prescribed how is that hard I feel like that's a that's a I mean that's a very personal question he's the one who talked about his ketamine use I didn't talk I wouldn't have brought it up if he had discussed it and so he's so he has sat he is starlink he's got Tesla he's got X he's got uh there's a the other there's another company that he has that's a natural easy question do you think that you should have gone harder in that interview no I don't think I should have gone harder because I didn't want I didn't want it to be gotcha I just wanted to understand why he said these things that's it if you admit that you are doing ketamine and you have government contracts and you have security clearances did you ever think about that that is a that's not a hard question I think for most people they think of ketamine and I think of some like dude in an alley oding on it versus un well no one no one is in an alley over oding on ketamine people I don't know we're not very we're not people are like at part it's a club drug like most people think of it as as a club drug guess okay yeah yeah I I sound like an idiot no you know but he explained it how why he uses it and I thought that was a great answer and so but that's what I was kind of looking for like why do you use ketamine why did you say that and I knew that he talked about depression but he kept he did not get to that until the last part of the question and I said well I've suffered from depression as well I've had guided drug therapy so okay that's great that was like a point where we met on but he didn't hear that but I don't think that's a hard question from my perspective as a viewer I thought you asked hard questions but I think I think that's good like but it's so weird that you think that because most people are like well that was softball like the people I hear from were like that was such easy questions like I've seen you interview people had he never seen so do you think we should turn it up on here and ask harder questions of course I mean you're asking me hard questions now you don't think the questions you're asking me are hard you ask me why did I get fired I answered you I think they're somewhat hard I feel like that's kind of the obvious question you know what I mean same if you if you had a government contract and a government clearance right MH and you did drugs I would say to you hey did you ever think about that I think great you know it's funny we were before this interview we were talking we're like you know he can either respond one of two ways one way is that because we thought these were pretty hard questions and we still have some more but one way is he he hears these questions and he as a journalist himself would be like I appreciate these guys asking the hard questions the other way is he sees us like poking and maybe pushing him into a certain corner and then he doesn't like it yeah and then I get up and leave or I get mad or then I cancel your contract true yeah speaking of canceling the contract I'm so curious what what led up to the initial offer of you know potentially getting a deal with with how that conversation go he asked you personally no he he put it on yeah well when we spoke personally but he also asked me he tweeted a couple times Don Lemon should join this platform Rachel M should Jo join this platform Don Lemon should be doing what Tucker is doing on this platform it would be great if you you can come on this platform and so okay I had conversation with him he hired me not hired me because it was just a Content deal but he signed did a deal with me because of the work that I did on CN that's what I've been known for the last 17 years I've been I do hard interviews I ask Democrats hard questions I ask Republicans hard questions I asked the you know the White House Press Secretary about Biden's age before anybody did you know I you know I called I I asked Donald Trump if he was a racist like it's you're supposed to hold people's feet to the fire you're supposed to hold truth to power without fear or favor to everyone that's from the president of the United States to Elon Musk to you know the city councilman or to a a convict you sit there and you ask questions and just because you ask a question just because I ask a question about something that you said about Dei or something that you said about anything it doesn't mean that I agree or disagree with what you said I'm asking a question that's what journalists do there are things about Dei that I don't agree with but I'm not the subject of the interview and so but people think oh my God you're biased you must be for everything for Dei because you're black because you're gay no I'm a journalist so I'm asking you questions do you think it would have gone a different way had you had three hours to interview him and could have shared some of your own experiences I would have loved to have seen that two hours long three hours long where it's more of a dialogue of you saying like here's what I disagree with about Dei and here's what I think and more of like a discussion like this where like sometimes we found that when we have short interviews we have to be so quick and we can't share like there's a lot of nuance and content but it's an we had an hour they wanted a minimum of an hour I would have gone two or three hours I would gone out afterwards and had a beer with them but we we never got to that point because he became upset now I as you said in this interview I could either get upset or I can answer your questions and so I choose to answer your questions and not become upset and if I can't answer it that's on me not on the not on the the interviewer I would like to say in elon's defense also like coming from the viewers perspective and someone that's done this for a while now what I noticed it seems as though he was trying to answer your questions and I thought honestly I thought he did so in a decent way but there was some weird misc communic I actually thought he did well but I don't think he was hearing I I think we were talking past each other I agree and I I thought I was like wow his he that was a perfectly good answer but it didn't seem that way because also it seemed like he was repeating himself several times and it seems like he was saying no if we have Dei then we're hiring based off of something other than pure Merit and ability and skills which is the only thing that you should be judging a person off of and it seemed like that was something where you're like okay well no data is showing you know that de is doing that and he says yeah but I don't want it to I want to prevent this from happening and it doesn't seem like there was a full understanding I thought he had great answers and I thought he had good questions well I also think it's how you feel about Elon and I think it's also your perspective on on life and I think that if you are a person um who is part of the underserved community in this country you will read elon's tweets about Dei and they will probably be offensive to you ultim what you're saying is that women and people of color are less skilled and if they are um and they should not have these jobs that's insulting to a huge portion of this country should it be on Merit absolutely are people of color you know do they have Merit to to be able to have those jobs absolutely I would say that they have to be better and smarter than the white guys basically Pilots are all white men I think they have to be better and smarter I think that you have a different perspective because you're a white guy in this country so you you you know pretty much you you can go through life and go through America or whatever live your life in America and pretty much do whatever you want that's just how the system works the system is built for you the system is not built for women the system was not built for built for people of color you have a different perspective on it like yeah of course it should be Merit but it's not all Merit it's bit it's people who have privilege who are getting jobs before people who don't have privilege it's people who are allowed to get into to college into colleges because they're legacies and who are th who who's that that's mostly white people okay you're upset because black people are now getting into Ivy League schools well woohoo It's About Time In fairness I don't think that I mean I hope nobody's upset that black people are getting into I IV culture I'm sure that there I'm sure that there are people out there that that hold that opinion and they blame it on Dei but there are studies that have shown that there are different requirements in Merit to get into these colleges there aren't there aren't studies that show that like difference in SAT scores for the average I don't think people are changing standards if you look at Duke Duke released a statement saying Elon is wrong bapiro is wrong we're not changing our standards or lowering our standards for um for medical students based on diversity equity and inclusion I think people may reassess what they think their values are or what they think they should be doing but and what you what you're going to learn as an undergraduate or a medical student is going to be the same and and the requirements are going to be the same but there are no studies that show that and that's all great I think everyone should obviously be learning and everyone should have the same opportunity but I I have to be honest with you it's easier for you to say that because of who you are and that's exactly what I'm trying to understand yeah what is it like for you I mean if if we're trying to understand your perspective how has here's what here's the thing like I know that I'm talented yeah I know that I'm a smart person I know that I've worked really hard but if you read the comments on Twitter or you if you listen to the podcasters I'm a de hire I'm an affirmative action hire I don't deserve to be where I am I completely deserve to be where I am I'm 58 years old everyone thought I was 30 years old it took me a long time to get to where I am now but no one um most people in these particular groups will believe that automatically they think that not all people yeah but the the critics and the people who are you know saying that well I don't it should be all Merit yeah of course it should be Merit and if it was all Merit there would be a lot of people especially a lot of white guys who would not have jobs yeah if it was all Merit because their daddy got him a job their uncle got him a job it's been in the family they've been able to um to create wealth accumulate wealth generational wealth over over time they've been able to go to institutions they've been able to live in certain neighborhoods they've been able to go to certain clubs all of that has happened that's that's America the idea that someone a person of color or women who have not been able to vote their entire time in America that they're getting special treatment now is absurd and and I think that some when the playing field is being leveled if you're used to being the preeminent voice and getting your way it's going to feel like it's discrimination because oh why am I I'm supposed to that's what a what is a pilot if I say a pilot what is a pilot supposed to look like I would I I think of like the Hat yeah in the outfit yeah you would think of like a 40 50y old guy like a white guy with a hat on and a white shirt that's what you would think if you're being honest that's what you would think think you think what does a doctor look like same thing now could that be that there no that could be because of what we were taught what America is it just it's because of what America is Playing devil's advocate could you argue that there are fewer African-Americans in the United States than Caucasian and because of the statistics if there are if it's like 80% Caucasian in the United States and I'm just throwing out a number uh statistically that's what most people would think because that's just based on the numbers yeah rather than I have a bias towards One race or another no well you're proving my point that's what people think it should look like because that's America but far fewer the percentage of African-Americans the percentage of women in society in all of these fields that they're talking about Pilots or medicine or whatever it's a lower percentage than the people who are in the actual population so to say that planes are falling out of the sky because women can't fly them that's the planes that are falling out of the sky or falling out of the sky who's flying the planes now mostly mainly white guys yeah who's who's you know who's mostly doctors mainly white guys so you're saying that it should be the exact opposite right of what people are saying but they don't understand that have you ever felt like you've been discriminated against based on the color of your skin or that you've been passed up of course yeah and how do you it's not felt like it I knew it how do you overcome that is it by working harder or just yeah just keep moving you have to work hard and you keep moving I mean I you know I know the history of this country um now listen by saying that I'm you know black or whatever or African-American it didn't mean that my parents didn't teach didn't tell me that I could be anything I wanted but I had to be realistic about it when I grew up there were very few role models of people of color even on television very little representation and so you know things have changed yes are we moving in the right direction absolutely do I think that everything is about race no but do I think that there's a big part of our society and culture that has you know that are affected because of the legacy of race and racism in this country 100% now this is going to be another harder question but I'm just coming from a perspective of genuinely trying to understand it guys in the comments go ahead light me up for it totally fine I'm giving you permission now I have no idea what you're about to ask Jack I feel like I have seen a lot of different studies that show that there are different SAT scores for people of different ethnicities to get into colleges like I've heard that Asian people for example are somewhat handicapped in entering colleges because on average their SATs happen to be higher does that data is that false or is that well I don't know about that but then whose fault is that that's a great question my understanding a lot of that has to do with resources uh having money to hire sat tutors uh and the importance placed on exams that's my understanding is that it's who's getting into the colleges the majority of people getting into the colleges or what well the majority is I mean would be different because there like there's more white people in America than there are black people so so then who who's holding most of the positions or most of the seats in the classroom and so then what I'm saying is that you can't blame that on another ethnicity that some that people I'm not saying you are but but the people in the comments are then you cannot say well um Asian people aren't getting in because they're allowing black people in well okay well I don't think that's see the way that I see it is like I'm literally looking at the the difference in ethnicities as letters on a piece of paper I'm not even attaching it to a certain person I'm just seeing it as letters and you're saying okay well for these letters let's just swap out Asians for x and like white people for y and then black people for C or something like that if these letters all have different requirements would I mean do you think that looking at that through that lens is a good or a negative way you mean looking at what just as letters and rather not like if you're just let's just say for the sake of the argument I'm not yeah like I'm not attaching that to a certain person I'm just looking at it based off of the outcome the Merit well I think it's perfectly okay to try to rectify an ill in society and I think it's perfectly okay to try especially a legacy right ill in society I think that's okay and I I don't think again I don't think anything is perfect I think we're gonna make mistakes as as it relates to diversity think we're going to make mistakes as it relates to anything um so I don't think there's anything wrong with correcting an ill from the past to try to fix it because when are you going to fix it you can't fix the past what do you think about instead of that alternatively looking at more so a socioeconomic status in evaluations rather than just strictly ethnicity because you can take let's say a black person well that's part of that's part of what they do when they say change standards they're talking about socioeconomic things as well they're not talking about standards as far as what you if you you know you don't have to pass a you know um I don't know kadab 101 Class M they're saying well we're looking at socioeconomics we're looking at ethnicity we're looking at gender we're looking at all of these things to try to level the playing field we're not looking at the actual standards of people who can't pass um a test when you're researching everything that you do for something like the Elon Musk interview how much time went into that how much prep did you do in advance God I can't I don't know you know how many hours but we did a lot of press a lot of prep and I have to tell you part of uh part of our strategy was you know we didn't want it to be a gacha interview because we knew people would think and it would just be very simple questions let's let's ask him about his public statements let's ask him about um his companies so we asked about his public statements and when when I'm when you know I'm sitting there and I'm interviewing him and he starts to get upset about things that he said said publicly I'm like I don't understand why you're getting upset by it and then I think the one thing that I didn't ask him about that I asked him about it that wasn't maybe something that he had spoken about publicly I think it was discrimination in one of his you know the Tesla plants and I don't know if he had spoken about it but that's public knowledge but everything else is you know about his father his childhood ketamine um you know his tweets Dei everything that he talks about uh about advertisers he was at dealbook and he told people you know advertisers go themselves why wouldn't I ask him about that that's not a hard question in hindsight is there anything you would have done differently or improved on no because I think the I think the that interview speaks for itself I actually think I did a really good job when I watch that interview I'm very proud of it um I think that interview I know it is people tell me it's being I I showed this interview to my students about patience a guy just told me on Saturday night I show this I show this interview to my students because journalists have to be patient because once when you're patient then you get an answer so there were lots of awkward pauses I don't feel the need to fill the Silence with sound and often you get answers in sort of that you know weird discomfort of of Silence that you wouldn't otherwise get so I just think that you know on his platform he wanted someone who had a different perspective and that's what he said he wanted but that's not actually what he wanted would you still want to deal with with Elon Musk no at this point no okay because I don't I don't think I he doesn't believe what he's he's he's not honest in what he says he wants do you think if he apologized and came back and said hey I had a bad day let's see if we can make something work no no so what's interesting is from your perspective it seems as though now correct me if I'm wrong you see Elon as someone who's a bad faith actor and when I say that he's saying one thing but actually he's I do feeling another thing and again I want people to know I don't have anything didn't have anything against Elon Musk I was going into business with the man so obviously you know there was no gotcha agenda but go on what you say and as a viewer of this interview it seems as though he felt similarly towards you because he would explain something and he would answer your question and then you would ask the question again or ask for clarification on something that I think in his brain he saw it already as clear that's what a journalist is supposed to do get clarity that's the point I really like what you just said also about the beauty in like the silences and kind of just letting things play out because I think viewers especially viewers that are fans of something a viewer that's a fan of you a viewer that's a fan of us they go to try to hear how the the interviewee responds to the interviewer whereas if you just look at it and observe the conversation and a lot of the stuff you could just tell by the facal facial features of like the person that's being interviewed a lot more like that tells the story in and of itself I just I think that the the um responses and um the criticism that you are talking about I think that is very telling about where person's mindset is I think that people watched that interview and they were like o he could have answered that better and then they came to his defense because they feel like they have to sort of their hero was someone was telling their hero that they you know the emperor wasn't wearing clothes I will openly say I mean I I love Elon Musk I think what he's doing for the electric car industry is great I like the idea that he bought Twitter I like the idea of it being a wild wild west I think I think it's needed I I'd like to I like the the dialogue between you and him about being free speech absolutist would you consider yourself a free speech absolutist I yes 100% I mean I'm here and I go you know I'll go into the lions den and talk to people um I don't think again you have to go back to what the definition of free speech actually is is and I think that many everyone should go and read it and then study what the Constitution says about it right but yeah I'm a free speech absolutist I would not have feeling the way I felt about Twitter and then how subsequently I felt about x one would have to be a free speech absolutist to go into to go back into that tox toxicity and and try to you know move it in a different direction but you do not see to get people to understand a different perspective but you do not see Elon as a free speech absolutist I don't see him as a free speech absolutist I see him as someone who's very consequential to the world I see him as someone who has been very Innovative when it comes to you know the electric car industry space and whatever I think that he's an important person and I think that with that um with that comes responsibility you were saying during the interview that you think certain things should be removed from X yeah of course so wouldn't that be like juxtapose that with the belief of free speech absolutism which people should be able to say whatever they want I just think that listen there should be moderation it's good I would not want people attacking you or insulting you I don't know what your background is or who you are but I wouldn't want people attacking and insulting your family and so you can say those things but it doesn't mean that you have to be part of a platform or an organization I understand now so so you're saying as an owner of the platform he should owe the the users of the platform the responsibility of having content moderation and I think his argument would be that his policy for his platform should be reflective of free speech absolutism and if somebody has a problem with it then that's I it depends on what your definition of free speech absolutism again the bounds of the law but that's not but that's not that's not what freedom of speech is freedom of speech is not within the bounds of the law that's not what it is go again go read the definition of freedom of speech we will put the definition of freedom of speech and what it's meant for it's not just like the Webster definition but look at what it what and there are consequences I'm curious would you interview anybody whether that be Putin Tate Netanyahu is there a limit to who you would either platform or have a conversation with I don't know who Tate is is that Andre I that who's that and Andrew tap oh is that the guy who's uh holy moly no idea wow he's like really you no you're the first person he's not is he like a wrestler guy or uh he did kickboxing yeah you know what's funny I brought Andrew Tate up to my dad he had no idea my dad my dad is on Twitter all the time he had no clue and I had to explain who Andrew Tate there's different but there's I guess for young yeah is that the guy there's a guy in he was in Romania in the The Assault or something yeah yeah yeah vaguely I don't really okay wow that's that's incredible wow well see that's the thing about about Echo Chambers yeah is that people think they want to hear a different perspective and like like I know you think you want to hear different perspective but there's part of you that wants to um that wants your perspective to be reconfirmed or confirmed by me and I don't I don't have your perspective I understand that that's that's natural but also that comes with being in Echo Chambers when people say I want to hear the other side I want to hear another perspective instead of saying okay that's your perspective and we disagree or what have you people continue to try to you know get you to to to get their to understand their perspective well hold on one second I I don't feel like I've sh I'm just I'm similar to you and Elon like I feel like I was just asking questions like I'm I'm trying to understand it's fine yeah it's it's totally fine but I think that the the reason you're having a hard time understanding is because many of us especially in this social media and internet age we are we all of us we get so involved and we go down the rabbit hole and and it becomes an echo chamber and you get used to that Echo chamber so when you hear a different perspective it seems like an insult to you or foreign because you're not used to hearing a different perspective I as a journalist I hear different perspectives all day last week I was on the um full sin podcast and I got the very similar questions you were on full yeah and and very similar questions about the uh vaccine and it's like okay we have a different perspective on the vaccine but that's over like you know okay can we move on we have a different perspective on the interview with Elon Elon Musk all right it's fine it's over you want to understand I'm telling you how I feel that is how I feel and I think it would be disingenuous and I don't think people would respect me if all of a sudden I came in here and I sort of AC yes and said oh maybe I could have no sure I love standing yeah in terms of the interview question though do you feel like one thing I want I call it internet brain and we have to get out of Internet brain or social media brain or whatever where you're in these Echo Chambers and you're in these groups that are maybe just you're a podcaster or whatever and you're so used to people coming on or just listening you're on X or you're on whatever and you just hear the same all the time and so it becomes your reality and then all of a sudden someone says no I disagree with that let me tell you why you're like stop attacking me oh my God I'm going to run away you're you're a lib you're whatever and it becomes like dunking on people or owning people it's like okay we have a different perspective I'm sharing mine you're sharing yours maybe we'll you know go away from this and we will agree to disagree but that's it it's over I don't you don't have to continue attacking someone because of it we don't have to not communicate with each other we don't have to live in separate neighborhoods or because of it it's a product of the Internet it's a product of Echo chain it know it's funny the happiest I was in a very long time was going to Japan for a week completely disconnecting from social media I didn't look at my phone I wasn't on YouTube none of it you're just in the moment and I have not been happier than that one week just completely disconnecting from the internet not paying attention to a single thing I did um when I left CNN and at times I would especially during the Trump era I did not go on mainly I didn't go on um Twitter and Facebook I did like Instagram or whatever because it's all about pictures and blah blah blah blah blah but I had to get off because it was so toxic and and I've been you know it's a happiest that I've been because you not you don't go down the rabbit hole and you know if you see something over and over and over and over over again repetition some somehow becomes belief and just because it's repeated you're reading it on a on um you're scrolling through it and I don't know what you call a feed on your feed it doesn't make it true if just because you hear it a million times and just because you you know um a million people say oh my God I can't stand that Don lemon's interview doesn't mean it's right doesn't mean that they're right doesn't mean that the interview was bad it's just most of the time you're reconfirming your own bias and I think that's what's beautiful and we've been so blessed honestly to have this platform we've out on so many different people we've out on people that are like hardcore on the left hardcore on the right and it's great although it's funny because a lot of the viewers they get horribly upset no matter who we have on someone's people get mad when I'm on you know if I'm on a conservative what people get mad why did you have that on him not watching or why did why did Elon do a deal with Elon must do a deal with Don Lemon i f him why is he on the platform and that's like that's the reason I was on the platform is because of people like you D it sorry I think it's good to not look at it through like an ideological lens and try to just I'm not a political person I don't belong to a political party would you would you interview anybody though like let's say Putin sure of course I would oh you were asking me a question you asking me I said would you interview anybody or is there a limit to who you would have on I mean it depends mostly yes but it would depend if they're worthy of the platform and worthy of actually you know elevating them or or My Time but for the most part yes do you think it's a good thing that Tucker Carlson interviewed Putin sure why not I mean you know there I would have done things differently but that's me Tucker did it the way he did it but yeah and ultimately it is what it is it didn't get a lot of play not in mainstream media it was it was hard it was because it was just a history lesson essentially so it's not it wasn't like the most attractive piece of content I thought a lot of it was he let him speak uninterrupted for a very long period of time but you have to understand cont I I agree I think didn't criticize him after the interview yeah he I think he said like oh those were like softball questions but it's kind of like from Tucker's perspective I mean I'm sure you know i' probably how far could you push any yeah horrified you know how what do you mean how far could you push yeah like how Hardball questions can you ask how much can you try to break through that's what you're supposed to do but in a foreign country with someone Putin with yeah of course I think there's an element of danger where Tucker might feel like if he pushed too hard might be don't do the interview if you're going to do that but I also think in the same way that like Tucker can be asking questions and people are looking for Putin's answers they can also learn a lot by just watching and listening to Putin talk you know I mean even Putin deflecting a question is him giving a different answer yeah but remember Putin is waging a war on Ukraine and deserves to be held to account for that and many other things and for you know the possible interfering in elections and spying on there are a lot of things that you that Putin need to be asked what you're not goingon to ask him I don't think he should do the interview what do you think is a positive thing about yourself that is overlooked that people don't acknowledge well generally I don't know if it's a positive thing but I think people don't really um understand who I am they don't really know me most of the criticism of me of what people know have been um through especially in in in these on these platforms like podcast and conservative media it's been through I've been a caric a character on Fox news or a character on some social media platform or a character on a podcast that has created a caricature of me of someone who um you think I am and I'm not that person and I think it's mostly from conservatives and a lot of it is from the Maga folks like they you know because Donald Trump didn't have facts or truth on his side so what did he do he banged the table if you don't have a truth if you're not winning you bang the table so um when I would point out lies or inconsistencies or you know any that he did wrong during his administration or his runup to u to becoming president then people would criticize me and think that I was this ultr left person because I was simply U pointing out truth and facts I don't I don't truth and facts don't have a political party and they don't have an ideology and I think that by um I think it was easy to sort of paint me as someone who's out to get Donald Trump or out to get Elon Musk because because of a previous bias that people have about me or just because of the who I am you think that that I'm a gay black man I'm going to feel a certain way about Dei on and on so I think that's you know maybe it's a little bit of unconscious bias by people um some of it may be warranted I'm not perfect but I think for the most part people don't really know me now although you may deem those as invalid criticisms of yourself what do you think it's just criticism I mean you can it's valid or invalid I'm just I'm just telling you my perspective on it sure but it seems as though you kind of insinuated that it was invalid those criticisms I said it's not who I am they don't know me so what do you think is a valid criticism of yourself uh I think a valid criticism is that I'll ask any question is that but that's a good thing that's a constructive criticism you said valid I say constructive that's a good criticism I'll ask I'm not afraid to ask anybody anything I don't care who you are what do you think would be a valid shortcoming of yourself uh a valid shortcoming I don't really I think sometimes I can um become a little emotional when people I shouldn't say I can sometimes I don't diffuse a situation and and it and people become upset I will say because I because because I don't suffer fools in terms of getting to know you uh one of the things that I've noticed in doing researching you was very difficult to find information about you in terms of your personal experiences and I think if you were to if you were to open up about more like personal topics and stories and experiences and I don't know maybe I'm just looking I love that I mean he also did this cool CNN video of him where you like went back to where you like went to the South and you saw like like the city that like your ancestors grew up in yeah I went to Africa and you went to Africa yeah that was facing my root that was I mean I I thought that was a cool video yeah but I also agree more personal experiences would humanize you I I have shared more about myself than I think any other Journal I came out very early I talk about my family see I guess we're getting yes because people you don't watch the news people didn't watch my show but they had an idea of what they thought my show was because they either saw Tucker calling me Don Lem man or people on Twitter criticizing something they saw on Fox news or you know in on a conservative blog or on a podcast and so they didn't actually sit down and to take the time to actually watch my show or um listen with a fair with a with a clear ear about what I was saying um and I so I think that you know that's that's the issue I shared more about myself than I think anyone probably any journalist on television well I think it's great that you're doing podcasts like this because then hopefully it can break that Echo chamber so people can get an idea um to something that they haven't been exposed to but also I mean critic I don't know if it's criticism but I don't mind that people don't like me I that maybe that's bad I don't mind that people no I think that I mean for your own mental health I think that's a good thing absolutely so I'm sure you're aware of this because this was going very viral unless if we're in I guess this is going viral this was going viral I would say like a month or two ago so this I mean it's kind of an obnoxious Twitter handle but it's end wokeness tweeted something that said wokeness the biggest threat to America is white men and you said this was a long time ago oh yeah yeah and then they put that right next to you my husband with your husband who happens to be a white man walking down some stairs and then it said like Don Lemon Back in whatever year it was is this a last question but it doesn't have to be but I'm glad that you asked me that question because it you know giv the opportunity to address it no it's not the opportunity to address it it's well yes but it proves what I said about internet brain and dunking on people and um people wanting to sort of you know have their own biases reconfirmed what I said we were talking in context of um I think it was around the time that Christopher Rave was testifying in front of Congress around that time and we're talking about um terrorism and the biggest threat was not foreign terrorism it was domestic terrorism and that domestic terrorism is done by a radicalized right-wing males well you said white men I said white and I said mostly radicalized Riz to the right and then the FBI director said the exact same thing so I don't understand why you don't my people don't understand that I don't get it I didn't say all white men were the biggest Terror threat I suppose to a lot of people now correct me if I'm wrong here would say that if you flipped that the other way around that that would be like like hate speech that would be this that would be that what do you say to no I think if if if if you mean if they were black men if black men were creating the um you know the biggest purveyors of domestic terrorism then okay that would be the facts those are facts I don't understand why especially I didn't hear I well I do a little but not as much I don't hear white women getting upset about that I don't hear uh black women or black men they all go yeah well that's true white guys get mad but it's a truth I thought that tweet was a little bit kind of just like clearly trying to slam down yeah it trying but it's also like again it's gotcha but that one was a gotcha I would agree that one was a go but again it's you know hey I married a white guy because that's who I fell in love with I did not say all white men were terrorists but that's what that tweet is trying to get you to believe that's what the criticism is that's what happens in conservative media because they are what they want to Jin up fear and they want to demonize me they want to demonize me one because they think I'm on the left two because I was on CN and and three because it's easy to say look at what this black guy is doing obviously the racism is there because they're saying he married a white guy and you know they want to do it because it's easy I'm I'm black I'm gay they think I'm liberal and I on CNN boom more than a trifecta so we have one last topic and then a couple rapid fire questions and I'll try to be very quick about this one thing it was an exchange that you had with Elon during the interview that I found very interesting is that Elon said CNN is generally considered left you said why do you say that if you look at any media survey they usually say for example Fox is on the right CNN is on the left and then you said the whole thing about the caricatures they see you through the lens of fox and then you said I'm independent in my thinking and don't make decisions due to political leaning do you still consider yourself to be independent or mostly on the left when is the last time you voted Republican oof I don't remember it was probably I can't remember it's probably an election um I I'm in suffa county and there are it's basically a conservative District but I don't I don't know the last time I voted for someone on the right because I don't look at political leanings when I go in I just I don't really look at whether it's say r or D or but as a journalist don't you think that you'd be like aware of these certain things yeah but I can't remember the last time I voted for someone on the right but I think it would probably be in suffa County but um I don't know I'm not sure in a presidential election I have not voted for anyone on the right in Democrat probably Reagan or something you voted for Reagan I uh I think I did yeah in the and what is a republican policy that you like um I I like Republicans um idea of being fiscally conservative but often they are not so I like the idea of it but it doesn't happen because usually under Democratic administrations the economy is better um I know that's shocking to a lot of people any certain the I like the idea of um fixing the border from Republicans but I don't necessarily like the approach of of how they do it by Jenning up fear um and that's generally about it I like the idea that people really stand on the Second Amendment but I don't like the idea that the Second Amendment is absolute because it's not has there been any policy that's been put forth by the Republican party that you can say you agree not in not in the last Administration no if people listen to somebody on the right who should they be listening to you mean like Tucker Carlson just a right-wing commentator um I like who do I like on the right I can tell you who I used to like on the right sure um I used to like Bill O'Reilly I used to watch him every night because I thought that he was a a good performer so I liked him um I think people should listen to George Will I like George Will I think he is um I think in his his approach is very careful and moderate um so I like those two guys do I like I it's interesting because now I think the folks on the right have become so Maga IED that it's it's hard to it's hard to look at the Republican party now and find something you like because they're all propping up someone who is very dangerous I believe I think I think we should just move on to the the rapid fire questions I you want me to ask seriously I really do have to go sorry it's 412 what's your favorite book of all time five five o'clock uh live show oh my favorite book of all time is probably tequilla mackenberg really yeah cool that's a good one thank you thank you so much that's I'm done if if you got yes you got to we really appreciate you coming on the show so much Don