Comforting Truths About Human Nature - Alain de Botton (4K)

Where do you think self-esteem comes from? Um gosh, I wish we knew. I mean, I think the the first thing to say is is a bit of a mystery. If we knew how to bottle this stuff, you know, if you look at the differences between what human beings achieve, it isn't easily explained by intelligence. Everything shows that that um broadly speaking uh you know intelligence accounts for the smaller portion of the massive differences in achievement and that's gling. Uh it's it it isn't what the school system is really about. Um and I think you know a lot of achievement is about imagination and it's about breaking through obstacles to um dreaming of a better world, a more interesting world etc. Um self-esteem is somewhere in that story because I think self-esteem is about saying it might happen with me. This thing could be I could be in charge of this thing whatever it is. And I think class plays a role here. Um, one of the great injuries of a workingclass background is that it tends to give you a sense that other people are controlling the world and you have to negotiate the obstacles they put in place, but you don't get to remove those obstacles. You just have to work your way around them. um typical middle class upbringing, middle class in the UK sense. Um you know, you you you get imbued with a feeling that human beings like you make the world and that raises your self-esteem. Um, you know, traditionally it's an enormous difference to, you know, if your uncle happens to be, you know, the guy in the civil service who does whatever and or your your slightly annoying second cousin um, you know, works in the treasury or something. You know, this changes your sense of reality because you think, well, of course, I can do something cuz look at those not that impressive people who I once saw around the kitchen, etc. So, a lot about self-esteem is thinking, how do I stack up next to other people? Um, is the world shaped by gods or broadly speaking by people like you and I? I know we're in a religious place and you must be seeming godly to the audience, but um but the good thing is you're not. Um, and I think, you know, that's one of the good things about modern technology is that it's helped to show the world that those it because it's given a very granular close-up sense of people in so-called positions of power, authority, etc. And that's helped to kind of imaginatively level the imaginative playing field in a way. So, >> you feel closer to them. >> You feel closer to them. You see that, you know, they're humans, too. And that can be inspiring. There was a an incident that a friend had when recording a podcast which uh I needed a name for and we've come to call it a yogurt lid moment. So he was sitting down to record with a very famous author and he's idolized this guy for a very long time and you know titan of literature sitting down his camera team are all setting everything up and it's in the guest's house and the guest says would you mind if I went and got a yogurt and he's like it's your house your yogurt please continue. The guest walks away, goes to the fridge and opens it up, gets yogurt out, sits down opposite my friend. Everyone's still pottering around. And my friend sat opposite this guy that he'd revered for decades, you know, just saw as this sort of untouchable demigod, >> watched him look at the yogurt, take the lid off, put it up to his face, and then lick the lid of the yogurt. And he said, "At that moment, the veils fell from my eyes, and I saw him as the fallible human." That's and it's that the yogurt lid moment, this sort of weird uh mortal trip. Think of the way that we're introduced to life really. You know, we start off very small and we're surrounded by very large people who seem to know how to do extraordinary things. You know, they can um throw a ball over a tree. They can, you know, they know how to speak a foreign language. They can do very complicated math, etc. And we are tiny. And it takes such a long time to think actually these gods, these colossi are just human. So you know the the number one sort of class differentiator is is childhood as it were because we all start in this very subordinate class which is the child and we look up to the adult. I mean think of those times when I don't know if you had this but you know you're at school and then it's the weekend and you go to the shops and suddenly you see the French teacher in the aisles of the shop and you think what's that person doing there? you know, there's Mr. Gregory. He's he's buying cereal. And you think that guy is just, you know, it comes back to your yoga po point. It's that guy's human. And and we're always catching up with that idea. X or Y is human. And isn't it interesting that very basic thought is still always a bit of a surprise. We're always on the back foot with that insight. Why is that related to self esteem? Why is self esteem not contained within our own system? >> Well, Chris, because we've got this very unfortunate thing that we know ourselves from the inside and we know other people only from what they choose to tell us. And so, we've got this massive imbalance of data. And we are so weird to ourselves and so embarrassing and so flawed. Anyone with a modicum of self-awareness is going to have, if they're honest, should have a slightly hard time tolerating themselves cuz the stuff that goes on in our minds. [laughter] The stuff that goes on in our minds is, you know, if it was published, I mean, we'd all be, you know, excommunicated immediately. Um, that's not a sign necessarily that we're so degenerate. It's just a sign that we we're having still a very hard time admitting what it is to be human at an interpersonal level. um was still despite all these ways we have of sharing data um it's still a sort of surprise I mean you know what it's like in a relationship or a close friendship when you know late at night you're able to go to your new pal you're go you know do you know do you ever have that thing when and they go yeah yeah that thing and no one's ever mentioned it you know there's still a societal silence and then the intimacy that grows from being able to say we're a bit weird now the truth is we're a bit weird like everybody else but there still um an imbalance of of knowledge um and and a sense I mean you know that thing where kids say things like my family's so weird other people's families are so normal you know I went to I went to Billy's family that you know his mom's really normal why why are you so weird and then of course in time you realize Billy's family is not normal you just don't know them you know we don't know other people as well as we know ourselves and so we tend to think um that those close to us are a bit more mad than anybody else. We go, you know, my mom's she's really mad or my ex are really mad. I mean, this goes on in in uh in uh the dating world, relationship world, where, you know, men will go, women so crazy, you know, women are really crazy. And then, you know, in the female camp, women are going, "Oh, men just just really, you know," and you want to go, "Look, guys, it's both. It's everybody. It's not men, it's not women, it's not the young, it's not the oldest, it's everybody close up. It's just that we often have the privilege of not knowing people close up enough and therefore we still retain illusions. You get this in travel, right? People go, >> "Oh, the Greeks, well, they're really they're better than us. You know, we're we've got all these flaws or the Americans, they have a certain whatever." And then, of course, once you're inside that society, you go, "Nah, it's the same everywhere." But anyway, we we've got to have illusions and bless us. So the closer that people get to you, the more you see their flaws, but unfortunately no one is ever going to be as close to you as you are. And you have this huge asymmetry, a million to one of the bit rate of data that you're able to see of yourself. And the vacasillations, the self-doubt as you pingpong back and forth. Should I go? I don't know if I should go and buy that. I don't know if I should get that pair of shoes. I should get that pair. I'm not going to get that pair of shoes. No, I might do. And you go to sleep and you think, I I spent last night staying awake wondering about whether or not I was going to buy a pair of shoes. I'm insane. I mean, I must be committed not knowing that that is the sort of thought that even you wouldn't tell your spouse. I I didn't sleep well last night. Why? I was thinking about this pair of shoe. You It's so mundane and boring that you don't even share that sort of thing. The other thing is from the inside, it's very hard to know who you are. And one of the interesting things is how people go a bit mad when they spent too long alone. If you spend a long time alone, you sort of you don't know [clears throat] certain thoughts go a little too far. And one of the great things about company, you know, why do we need other people? Just to be able to kind of hold us slightly in check in small ways and large, they they kind of go, no, that thought is getting a little too extreme, whatever. They they they define us. Um but also the other thing that people help us to do other people is give us a compact sense of who we are that eludes us. So I see you and I go there's Chris. Now when you're alone you don't think you're Chris. You just think I'm consciousness in the universe. I'm just you know I'm just a giant net that's capturing thoughts and impressions. You don't know that you have a name, a beginning, a middle or an end etc. And when we're in company, people go, "Oh, you're that guy who does this or you know, you've so other people's caricaturured vision of us is actually quite helpful to us because you think, oh, you know, I'm I'm that relatively simple soul that >> unifies us, gives us a sense of story." >> Yeah. And also because, you know, if I look at you, you look unified. You got two eyes, a nose, a mouth. You know, you're relatively compact, etc. But inside you, >> you don't feel any of that. It's it's a it's a vast shapeless landscape. >> [laughter] >> Is this uh is self-esteem related to imposter syndrome? I I think imposter syndrome was already something that I was seeing a lot of and now I'm seeing more about increasingly this sense that the world expects something of me that maybe I've even actually done previously, but I'm scared about whether or not I'm going to be able to deliver it. Look, I think it's I know imposter syndrome causes people problems, but um I'm reassured if somebody suffers from imposter syndrome. It's a sign of honesty. It's a sign of self-awareness. Of course, it has its extreme versions which you know causes people a lot of pain. But if someone is aware that they might be a charlatan or might be pulling off a confidence trick, that's honesty. That's great. That's a that's a starting point. You know, it's just like somebody who knows they might be evil is a good person. You know, evil people don't worry they might be evil. So, it's, you know, you're likely to be authentic and genuine if sometimes you think, am I a fake? That's a good sign. It's a good starting point in the same way as identifying that you're a bad driver is a good starting point for not driving fast. >> But it doesn't necessarily make you better on the roads. So, where do we go to? Where is becoming a better driver? Okay, my imposter syndrome. Thank you, Alan. You've told me that I'm not so up my own ass that I can't see my own flaws. Hooray. What about starting to work through that? What about starting to get a better sense of our own capacities and capabilities? Look, a lot of it is bouncing against the world and testing yourself against reality. It's very hard to know your talents until you've had a go at something. And I think we all have this sense sometimes that some things come more easily to us than to others. You know, I don't know how great tennis players start, but they must have a sense, oo, I was able to hit that ball and that that worked quite well. Or a great writer is able to think, I was able to pull off quite a nice little sentence there. And that's the beginning of a kind of growing confidence. And you you know, you need a you need that kind of start. And you know, I think a good life doesn't require you to do everything. it it requires you to do the things that you feel you're capable of and that you're especially good at. Um it's no humiliation for me that I can't play tennis for example if somebody goes you know you're terrible because there's I don't sense a talent but I do sense talent in that tiny area of assembling words that's the area that you know but maths I can't do um you know architecture I can't really do etc so many things I can't do so it's about finding those little sweet spots and one of the great puzzles in life is how do people find their vocation how do will find their core identity, their talents. And I sometimes think of it as it's like you're passing a metal detector over the ground and very occasionally something will let off a little beep, a beep of intensity, of interest, of heightened thoughtfulness, and you think, there's a fragment here below the ground >> of my true self. Now, my true self was shattered or it it came in disassembled form. It's buried. It's scattered over a vast area. And the task of life is to recreate it from hints. And I think that you know one of the great challenges I mean I think one of the big big challenges and it happens to every young person is what should I do with my life? It's it's one of it's one of these central questions of philosophy in a way because unless you're a very rare person you will have to assemble a vision of your future. It's not going to come readymade and there won't be a voice from the sky going you know you are an accountant or you are a downhill skier. It's going to be something you have to assemble and you'll assemble it in bits. You'll you'll have to recreate the the the original statue of you that was shattered a long time ago and that lies across a vast area. So like an archaeologist of the self, you have to build that up and and you have to build it up out of those little beeps of interest. >> And I think a good thing there is envy. People speak very very low and embarrassed way about envy. You know, you're not supposed to feel envious. I think very often when you feel a beep of envy, it's because there's a fragment of your true ambition and your true self in the life of another person. And rather than go, "Oh, I must run away from it." Go, "No, this is a clue. What is there that you are envious of?" And often envy is a very inaccurate emotion. We envy the whole of someone when actually it tends to be a part of them that we want. And so we go, I'm envious of that singer, actor, business person, etc. You want to go, hang on, hang on. It's it won't be the whole thing. Drill into it. What what really is core here? And you might realize it's actually not their fame, their money. It's that they work with their hands or it's that they, you know, um live in a log cabin somewhere far away from other people or whatever it is. So the best thing to do with envy is to see it as a guide for your own ambition, not a sign of your innate jealousy and inadequacy. M. It's a clue. >> I always think about envy as the only one of the seven deadly sins that doesn't feel good. >> Remind me of the other seven deadly sins. Gluttony. >> Gluttony. Sloth. Sloth doesn't feel good. >> You don't think sloth feels good? Have you not spent a good Sunday afternoon watching some horrible TV show? >> Think of the self disgust that sloth often brings, right? You know, you're lying on the sofa and you know that your your you know, you're scrolling Instagram and you know that your better self is being eroded >> and so there's guilty sloth, right? >> Good sloth and guilty sloth. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. Interesting. >> You've probably heard me talk about element before. 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That's how confident they are that you'll love it. Plus, they offer free shipping in the US. And right now, you can get a free sample pack of Element's most popular flavors with your first purchase by going to the link in the description below by heading to drinklnt.com/modern wisdom. That's drinklnt.com/modern wisdom. The imposter syndrome thing, I think, when it gets turned up too high, especially with low self-esteem, can turn into this sort of very loud critical inner voice, this sort of self-hatred thing. Um, I wonder whether there's better ways given that we're already quite critical of ourselves. Everybody is. >> How do you come to think about handling external critic? You're an adult now. You're a big boy. Maybe this is in your professional life. Maybe it's a personal comment on the way that you showed up at dinner. Maybe it's And yet, at least in my experience, there are very few people who are psychologically healthy and still able to cope with criticism about something they care about >> in a way that doesn't really hurt. So, how do you think about dealing with criticism? >> Look, I think one of the most calling things is criticism when it's warranted, when you have actually made a mistake. And you know, one of the most awful things about being human is that you're constantly hurting others. you know, we are constantly hurting others in small ways and large. Um, often through stupidity, exhaustion, narrow-mindedness, etc. Um, and then if we're moral people, and most of us are, it then hurts. It hurts that we have hurt someone. Um, how do we move on from that? How do we not, you know, sink into a hole? How can we live to see another day? We need to forgive ourselves for the sake of ourselves and and those who depend on us. Um and this is where broadly speaking friendship comes in. You know we need trusted others um in whom we can confide and we're sitting in this religious space. Confession has a long history. Um we need to be able to confess uh to a loving audience that can that can say I know that you have done bad but your heart is good you know and and that's a complex maneuver of the mind >> and also something difficult to do in solitude or solo the other people >> we can't do it solo we can't do it solo I I think this is you know one of the reasons why solitude is very challenging because we simply cannot bring to ourselves the the self-compassion um that that we need to to keep going. Um and you know we we are social creatures. Um if we began well in childhood, someone will have looked at us through the eyes of love. And to look at someone through the eyes of love is to see that though they may have done ill, they mean well. And it's it sounds simple, but it's you know all of all of life is in there. And of course then to be able to pull off that maneuver for other people. Um I mean you know it's no coincidence that the great religions all circle this. They all circle this business of confession, forgiveness, charity to others. I don't mean financial charity though you know has a role but it's really charity of spirit. >> Um it's obvious it's something we desperately need are very bad at and yet um without it society soon gums up. We can't go on >> and we can't provide it to ourselves which is why it's so important you need to be told that it's important for you to do it to other people because there's this odd sort of uh um co- philanthropy that's occurring. I am going to pay into the pot and you are going to pay into the pot and everybody is going to withdraw from the pot. It's this sort of uh the the council tax I suppose of uh of human goodness. >> Yeah, that's beautiful. And you know [clears throat] many of us are lonely. I mean this is one of the great secrets of of life that we don't have enough of these people. We we're surrounded by people but how many of how many of those are really the people who in the middle of the night at crisis moment is going to be able to deliver that kind of broadly we could call it reassurance uh a confessional ear um and a sense of that we are worthy of forgiveness. Do you think this is a challenge that particularly men face? This having someone that is a sympathetic ear, the the troubles of being tied up in your fragile male ego, etc. Uh male friendships and male support seems to be a tough thing, tough needle to thread. It's a really tough needle to thread. I think that um being a man comes with all sorts of challenges, but one of them is that masculinity is presented as a kind of achievement. Um, you know how boys taunt each other in the school playground and they'll go, "You're a girl." Uh, as though there's a kind of slippery slope. The top of the slope is manhood and then the bottom is girlhood. And if you're not careful, you'll become a girl again as it were that there's a sort of sense of when you were a baby and that's the other taunt, baby. When you were a baby, you were in the feminine camp and then through effort you became a man. But that achievement is precarious. So men are always feeling the procarity of their identity. Um and that's a very unstable uh uh business. Look, I think the best men um are those who've been broken um by life and have pulled through um have come out the other end. Why? Because they've been forced by circumstances to drop the illusion of their strength and power. they they've known that they couldn't keep that going. Um they've hit rock bottom and they've had to reach out and say I can't cope. Um I I am in infantile position, you know, help me. Um that I mean men become rather glorious when that's happened to them. Um because that's when there's true humanity, sympathy, etc. But some men they never get there. You know, it's it's posture, posture, posture. It's, you know, defensive posture all the way. Um, so and I I can spot them a mile away. Uh, the men who've been broken. >> How do you What do they look like? >> It's not really You You just sense that there's um a modesty deep down there's a modesty and you just feel I think people give off I often notice it a sense of how much you could tell them and how much they'd be able to bear. Um, often it's picked up in little things. You know, people say, "How was your weekend? Was it great? Was it good?" >> You go, "Oh, wow. That person really needs my weekend to have gone well." Cuz they don't have much space. My weekend to have gone badly. >> Someone goes, "How was your weekend?" There's space in that. There's space in that. You feel the space. They're like, "Oh, I might have been crying on the bathroom floor. That that could happen. I might have wanted to take my life on Saturday, but Sunday things cheered up." You know, there's room for the extremity of what it is to be human. And those are the people you want to watch out for, you know. >> [snorts] >> I read an article uh a couple of weeks ago uh talking about how lots of men say uh there needs to be more room for men to open up about their emotions. We should have that in the real world. And when the rubber meets the road personally for them, a lot of the time guys still struggle to receive weakness and vulnerability from other men. So they're saying I want the world to be able to accept my vulnerability whilst not really being that comfortable with accepting it from other people myself. And um I don't think that there's many asymmetries and women have got it bad in some ways and men have got it bad in others but I think this is a particular asymmetry that men deal with more that I think women are good at doing the nurturing thing especially to other women. I think that men are bad at doing the nurturing thing generally, especially to other men. And there are already enough challenges of men opening up to women. Oh, how am I going to be seen? My fragile masculinity will be shattered. Maybe she'll tell her friends. Or maybe it's my partner. She won't be attracted to me anymore. And uh yeah, I I just think that was I'd never seen it put that way previously that guys want to be able to be vulnerable and yet when they see other male vulnerability, it makes them very very uncomfortable. They'll uh quote tweet it online mocking it or they won't reach out in the way that's needed. And a couple of the reasons that were put forward are well maybe it highlights where you might be weak too. this is somebody being being vulnerable and that throws into sharp contrast the fact that hey guess what you've got vulnerabilities as well. Uh another part of this a little bit of an ev evolutionary psychology explanation that uh we have our coalitions we would go out hunting and a guy that's not that strong and stoic might not be a great coalitional partner. What if we get to the end of the hunt and he can't be bothered to turn around and go back? So, and many many other reasons. But yeah, I think that's an angle that guys, especially guys who want to be integrated, to transcend and include in Wilburian language. You know, you should take a good look in the mirror in not just being able to talk about your emotions, but in paying into the pot, right? not just withdrawing from the taxes but also hey I'm going to be here and I'm going to be here even to people maybe that I don't know this random guy on the internet as opposed to saying haha this person's with >> going huh this person was really hurting and >> [ __ ] if I was hurting I I'd probably want someone to be there for me so maybe I should try and do the same for them despite not knowing them >> I'm thinking of bullying you know it's it's a strange word and it's an embarrassing word but it exists you know the impulse to bully the weak. What is it? I mean, anyone who's been through a school, which is everybody, knows about it, right? Which is you see somebody who's, you know, typical target for bullying is somebody in a school who's whose life seems softer, um, more indulged than yours. They still seem stuck at a, in a way, at a privilege level. You know, their mother bakes some biscuits or packs their teddy bear in their school bag or whatever it is. and you think, "Hang on a minute. I've had to be tough. I've had to grow up. I've had to I've not been indulged and I'm going to I'm going to punish in another person not just the weakness, but the privilege, the emotional privilege that I see." They they get to >> they get to walk around thinking that it's okay to be a bit weak and a bit soft. Well, that's not okay for me. So I'm I resent this privilege and I'm going to make sure that their life gets a bit miserable. And that's how you end up bullying. And you know, parents bully their children. I mean, this is great taboo, but they do. Um it's a real challenge for a parent to see somebody having a life that's softer than the one they had. And there's a real impulse to say, "Hang on, you know, I I resent you for your your privilege." Not not emotion not financial emotion emotional privilege. Why why do you get to be indulged in a way I wasn't? It's very hard to bear that asymmetry. >> How do people overcome that? Let's say that you are a parent and you did grow up in a household that was perhaps not as emotionally forgiving as it should have been. You didn't feel quite as supported. And I imagine this this a really complex emotion to feel which my favorite ones. Uh, I grew up in a household that didn't have room for my emotions. I did a lot of selfwork in order to be able to understand that and then try and wipe that slime off me so that I can give a better life to my kids. My kids come along. They start to have this better life. And somehow in seeing the better life that I designed and tried to overcome in order to be able to make happen, resentment has now come in. And now I feel shame at my resentment. And I feel bitterness at my shame about my resentment and anxiety about my bitterness about my shame about my resentment. It's this infinite regress of emotions that you made happen in a positive way. Congratulations. Hooray. You overcame this. You were a circuit breaker in this sort of weird, you know, serial of uh of string lights and you feel bad about it. I mean, I'm laughing, right? Because this is where we're hitting kind of the tragedy of being human, which is you try so hard to get it right and you're trying to get this right and something else goes wrong. And I mean, you know, we do need a warm, rich laughter. This is not merely the icing on the cake. It is one of the great solutions. I mean, we're we're juggling here with the incompatibilities of, you know, raising children. Um, it's maddening. You avoid one problem, you set off another one. Um, I think that, um, yes. So, look, I think we do so much work on ourselves and still we're at square one. Um there's an old Jewish saying, man thinks, God laughs. Um in other words, you know, we're thinking that we can master something. We can master a problem. It's so difficult. Um but I want to talk about I want to think about sadism because we're talking about bullying. Um it's a really weird word, sadism. What is that? That's you think maybe it's a sex kink or it's something that really weird people all of us carry a sadistic impulse. I want to say an impulse. In other words, an impulse to turn our own suffering into uh a desire to punish or give suffering to another person. >> Um it always comes from pain in ourselves and we want to pass it on and and you see lowlevel low level minuscule very hard to observe sadism in in daily life in all sorts of areas. You see in relationships you know people are sadistic to their partners. I mean what you know again we you know if there were angels they would be weeping as they looked at human nature and what are we doing to ourselves and to each other but um there's an economy of suffering all meanness is inherited. All impulse to be mean is coming down the generations from somebody else. Um and we we keep playing past the parcel with our suffering. We go oh look I've got some suffering. Oh, do you want some? Cuz I'm just it's going to make me feel better. >> And that's how we end up, you know, that gu that guy stole my my foot. I'm going to take their eye. Oh, that person hacked off my my left finger. Well, I'll chop off their ear. And then, you know, I'll take a side of their skull because, you know, and on and on and on it goes. I remember you saying a marker of good parenting is that your children don't have any wish to be famous. >> Yes. Um, you know, there might be a few exceptions to that rule, but I think the an outsized desire to shine in the eyes of strangers, to be known by people you don't know is a sign of pathology, I believe. And we're sitting here, you and I, >> in front of lots of cameras, >> in front of lots of lots of strangers. So, something's gone wrong for us. I mean, and it's so basic. I don't know enough about your childhood. I know a bit about mine. Uh, you will have felt invisible. I mean, why become a little bit more visible than everybody else if you don't carry within you a deep sense of having been invisible and unheard? Is there not a natural pull for that generally that's kind of written into the source code of humans? Oh, I suppose actually yes, there is. And it's everybody else and the fact that you are an outlier within that suggests that you are different. Right. Okay. I've answered my own question. Thank you. Yeah. So I think there's a compensatory uh business going on and I think the ability to have a so-called ordinary life is a massive achievement. It's if we want to put it this way an exceptional achievement. It's it's like it's like comedians. You know people who have an outsized need to make others laugh are almost always children who were facing something not funny at all that they needed to find a way through. They they learned to make jokes cuz there was something pretty sad around uh that they learned to to manage. And in all of these, you know, when when dealing with those people or those sort of people are listening now, you know, the response should always be what how did the way in which I grew up figure as a solution to a problem that I was facing and therefore could I now at whatever age you're at cut myself some slack and try something else. I needed to laugh in order to be tolerated. What would it mean to be serious? I needed to be famous in order to survive. What would it mean to think about obscurity? Or indeed, I needed to be painfully modest and always underperform in order in order not to spark jealousy. What happens if I tried something different? You know, these are these are the major sort of break points, turning points in a life. When you think the things I needed to do to get me through childhood are now hampering my possibilities in adulthood, those the situations that required that behavior are no longer in existence. What happens if I tried something different? But in order to do that, you have to see the pattern that you would that you were set by your childhood. Mark Marou, comedian says, "The monster I created to protect the child inside of me is difficult to manage." Beautiful. Love it. This episode is brought to you by Momentus. Trust really is everything when it comes to supplements. A lot of brands may say that they're top quality, but very few can actually prove it, which is why I partnered with Momentous. 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And right now, you can get 35% off your first subscription and that 30-day money back guarantee by going to the link in the description below by heading to livemus.com/modernism using the code modernwisdom at checkout. That's 35% off livem.com/modernwisdism and modern wisdom at checkout. Status anxiety kind of related to that, you know, this this need to be seen. Look at me. Hello, I am here on I mentioned before because we are recording in a church or an old church at the moment that uh just by chance you might have decided to wear your flowing robes today. Unfortunately, not um but that need that desire look at me, look at how special I am. Look at how impressive I am. Status anxiety is going to be there I think no matter how enlightened you are. I I want to feel like I'm needed by other people and respected and admired by people I admire. That's a pretty big one. Is there a good way to deal with Is there a healthy way to sort of deal with status and status anxiety? I mean, it's funny you mentioned churches. I mean, the the really helpful thing about religions is that they tend to tell their believers that someone really knows them and really cares about them and is looking at them. Um, and if you think about the impulse to be rich and famous and esteemed, it's really a desire that gets soaked up by religions. Um, religions are saying everybody, you know, in in in Christianity, every hair on your head is numbered. In other words, someone's really looking at you. Someone knows you in the way that a parent, a good parent knows a child. >> You know, the great thing about early childhood in a good and loving family is that child is a superstar. You know, they come in, they sing a song, they everyone claps, they're happy. You know, in the morning, it's like the little prince has arrived, the princess is, you know, doing a pirouette, etc. that doesn't make a child entitled. Entitlement comes from deprivation. Um the ability to absorb an ordinary life comes from early emotional privilege. If if if the child is able to be the center of the universe in the early years, they will be able to accept without too much psychological damage a subsidiary position in adult life. That the need to be always at the center and always important is a compensation. It's not a sign of health. M >> and therefore a good childhood is connected up with the ability to give your child that charge of specialness so that then they can go on to do that much more important thing which is to be ordinary to accept ordinariness which is a massive challenge and all of us are in the end ultimately ordinary and that's okay >> and to not feel shame >> and not feel shame >> and to accept that there are limits on your power you will need to die you will accept your finitude >> I wrote a a little essay about shame. I want it to read to you if that's okay. >> Uh so I've been thinking about the shame of simple pleasures. This is a quote from a friend. I have not yet grown wise enough to deeply enjoy simple things. We are all terrible accountants of our own joy. Most of us only accept deposits when the transaction is sufficiently large. The day we get married, the night we play the main stage at Glastenbury, the moment the business sells for $100 million. Anything less and the entry doesn't even make the ledger. We treat small pleasures like counterfeit currency. Oh, that thing made your day. That small moment made your week. How feeble, how desperate, how limited your life must be to be thrilled by something so unimpressive. You must not have a lot going on. We roll our eyes at the tiny events that others get excited at, as though joy must be proportionate to scale. And yet, life is made up of little things exactly like this. Not once in a while, but always. Your life is constructed out of moments so small they wouldn't even register as an event on anyone's calendar. So why can't something small be something great? Well, sometimes I feel things more deeply than I should do, including the shame at feeling things more deeply than I should do. Also including the shame of being delighted by little things more than I think I should. As if taking pleasure in something tiny reveals the smallalness of my life. But perhaps that's exactly backward. Maybe the true richness of a life is how much joy you can harvest from the smallest possible patch of soil. And here's the payoff. When you lower the threshold for joy, you don't just get more of it, you get it now. Who is truly the more impressive person? The one who requires a huge cathedral of [ __ ] fanfare, and galactic accomplishments in order to get the slightest ficker of pleasure. Like some massochist at a sex party demanding car batteries get clamped onto his nipples before he can even get started. or the person who can do it with a good coffee and a fresh breeze. Love it. I mean, Chris, what it makes me think that we're incredibly easily led in our sense of what matters in life. We're really bad judges, independent judges of significance. So, if somebody says, you know, that artwork on the wall, that's really expensive, that's really famous, that used to belong to a king or a queen, we think, oh, that's marvelous. And if we don't know who the painter was, who the artist was, or what it is, we think, "Oh, that can't be any good." So, it's almost comedic, isn't it? How how supine and dumb we are in deciding for ourselves um what matters. So, you know, you do get this in in culture. Um if a book wins a prize, everybody decides that book's amazing. Before it won the prize, everybody thought it was boring. And and [clears throat] you know, the book hasn't changed. I think about this in terms I'm a great fan of flying. I love flying and I wouldn't have I wouldn't have guessed that about you. >> I love love love it and I love the technology. I love the you know all sorts of things the beauty aesthetics. Anyway, um I'm always struck by the way in which flying has nowadays very low prestige in the world compared let's say to art. So if you say to somebody I'm going to a gallery and I'm going to look at some pictures. Someone goes oh that's very you know a noble thing to do. I'm going to I'm going to take a flight and on the flight I'm going to open the window and I'm going to look at the clouds and I'm going to really delight in them and I'm going to marvel at them and I'm going to thinking, "Oh my goodness, this is this is better than any painting by Leonardo or Busousan or whatever. This is just this is striking, right?" People would think you're making a big deal of it. Shut that window, but I'm trying to watch a film. [laughter] So, it's not that prestigious to look out the window. Um, and and that's just a tiny example of how bad we are at at finding significance by ourselves. I think this is true creativity. True creativity is when you have a sense that your pleasure um could be legitimate wherever it lies. So if you happen to like pebbles, go for it. You know, that's that's going to be your pleasure. Or if you like the way that sunlight hits, you know, a window blind or or concrete, um that's going to be that's going to be the thing for you. And I think it's small children have it more naturally. That's what makes that's what makes small children delightful to adults. You know how it is. If you take a small child to a park, it's hilarious. You can't even get to the swings because they will have stopped. The child will have stopped maybe by a wall or they'll have noticed, you know, a piece of chewing gum in in in a rock and you think and they'll be looking at it, whatever. And you go, "Come on, let's go to the swing." And they don't want to go to the swing because they've discovered a tuft of grass growing out of a concrete ledge or whatever it is. They are independent arbittors of significance. By 15, they're like, "Well, what did Drake like or what, you know, what's what's X telling me to?" >> They've outsourced their sense of taste. >> Exactly. And that's so tedious. I mean, bless them, everybody does it. But ideally, by the time you get to full maturity, you become a bit weirder once more. And that's what makes certain adults really delightful. They go, doesn't matter what everybody thinks. For me, I'm liking this thing. I sometimes think about it in terms of entertaining. I don't know how much entertaining you do. When people say, I'm going to I'm going to give a dinner party. I'm going to invite some friends for dinner. They get into such a mess thinking, how am I going to organize this dinner? Ooh, I must have a starter and and maybe it's a melon and or maybe it's I don't know prawns or something and then and well I must have this thing called a main course which might be chicken or something and and then they or I got a dessert and they're just you know they're overflowing with anxiety etc. And if you said to them what do you actually enjoy? what what you know if it's supper time what you and they might go well I like opening you know a can of tuna putting it on the table getting some hummus dipping that um putting my feet up and you thought okay why don't you just do that with your mates why don't you just just drop the pretense have the courage to think what's touching me might touch another person >> and your dinner party is going to be a lot more fun this is ultimately of course what great artists do great artists have a sense that what's fun for them what's meaningful for them will probably be meaningful for other people even though right now there's quite a lot of silence about that area. So, they're kind of they're taking they've got a faith that we started talking about self-esteem. They got a faith that the things that turn them on are likely to turn other people on as well. And that's a beautiful confidence and that's what leads to great art. Great art is really the courage to define the pleasure for yourself. It's lovely quote from Emerson. He says, "In the minds of geniuses, we find our own neglected thoughts." In the minds of geniuses, we find our own neglected thoughts. In other words, geniuses, so-called geniuses, don't have thoughts that are completely different from those of other people. What they do is they take the thoughts that we all have and they give them the significance they deserve. Some of them, some of those thoughts. And so that's why when you pick up a really great book, often you think, "Wow, I've always thought that, but I've never known how to say it." And really what we mean is, "I've never had the courage to give that thought its due because I'm lacking self-esteem." >> There is a it's a a really sort of wonderful blend between boneheaded self-belief, which is uh kind of rebellious. It feels a bit spiky, sort of a not that >> and a much more sort of warm cozy sensation which is I like what I like and I like myself for liking it. Does that make sense? There is this the the uh rejection of entropy outside and this sort of containment of structure inside >> and immediately I'm thinking about the background that would have made the second version possible. I'm imagining a parent who says do that thing that you that you like doing. That's fine. You you can be slightly weird and we don't think that's weird here. You can just pursue your own pleasure in a non brittle way. You know, as you say, it's a it's a gentle acknowledgement of your individuality. >> We are in a place that's got some pretty wonderful is stained glass art. Is that classes art? >> I'd [snorts] imagine. Let's let's play really loose with the concept of art. Art is anything that you know excites us. It seems beautiful. You often talk about art. In a lot of your books, you have uh images of of of different paintings of different sculptures of stuff like that. >> How can people become better at appreciating art? They're white belts at looking at a gallery and they want to have a better appreciation of it. They feel like there's something that they're missing. They don't understand. and they don't know the story of where this painter came from and where they were at at that point in life. >> Well, one thought is people tend to think in order to be a decent person who likes art, I've got to like everything. I got to go into a museum and I got to just delight in everything. Think about it in music. People are much ser when it comes to music than it when it comes to visual arts. People are really hung up on the visual arts. And I always say take your cue from music. You know when you like something musically and you don't care that there's loads and loads of other stuff that doesn't touch you. you don't mind. You like what you like. You make your own playlist. So, make your own playlist of the of the artists that touch you. And it might be 3% of the art that's produced by the world. And it might be not any of the famous names. Um the famous names are on the whole chosen by all sorts of bizarre ways and find your own way to things that delight you. Um be, you know, have the courage. Also, when walking through a museum, you can't eat it all at once. I mean, these museums are bizarre. are they're like they're like archives of everything that's happened over a thousand years. And you're supposed to kind of spend an afternoon and like it all. It's just we can't absorb it. We can't metabolize it. And so I always think, you know, go to museum. If you find two things that you'd like to ideally nick and put in your house, let's [laughter] get going. Be very personal. People are really normal in the museum gift shop. You know, when they get to the museum gift shop, they're like, "Right, what postcard should I buy?" Then they're thinking, "That's the way to love art." It's like what car should I send my granny? That's the beginning of art appreciation because it's like what do I like? What might they like? Go for it. >> All the rest is nonsense. >> You don't need to get caught up too much. I wonder what the difference is between music. I completely agree. I'm very unequivocating about the stuff that I like in music. And yet when I go and if I imagine myself sitting in front of a painting sort of fertively be looking to either side to work out, oh this seem very melancholy. This must be a melancholy. I must be somber. I'll be somber. this will be that's the way to do it. And uh I wonder what it is about the medium that makes it a little bit more difficult, a little bit more uh hard to define your own taste. There's a there's an ancient Greek myth about the origins of painting. There was apparently a shepherd boy who was in love with a shepherd girl and the shepherd girl was going to go away. And uh that night on their last night together, they were in a cave and there was a shadow on the cave wall of the shepherd girl and the shepherd boy took up a piece of chalk and traced the outline of the shepherd girls form and that's supposed to be there lots of paintings of it's the origin of of art. In other words, the impulse to make art comes when something precious is going to vanish and art could be thought of as a bucket in which you preserve something valuable. And we need art because we can't hold it all in our own fingers. We can't absorb it all. And so we outsource it to something that can stabilize it and hold it for us. That's the impulse to take a picture. You know, when you go to a beautiful place and you go, I like it. There's always a fear of loss and you think, I'm going to lose it, so I must take a picture of it. Same thing goes on in art. And so the art that you love is almost always that the art that contains within it a bit of your true home, your true happiness that is in danger of slipping away. And it's going to be different for everybody. Um I think one of the most interesting questions is why are you touched by the art that touches you? And it tends to be because that art captures something that the person doesn't have enough of a secure hold on and they need to preserve it. So for example, I love calm art. You know, I love beautiful empty spaces, linearity, dignity of form, etc. I love it. Is my life like that? No, that's not that's not where I live. I live in chaos. Um, but I love that because that's my true home, but I'm not there often enough. So, it's a momento. It's saying, "Come back to this place. That's where you need to be in order to be your true self." Good news. AG1 just released their nextgen formula. It is a more advanced clinically backed version of the product that I've been drinking every day for years. So, you still get the same one scoop ritual, but now with an even more thoughtful formulation, flavor, and four clinical trials behind it. AG1 has been evolving since 2010, continuously improving alongside the latest research. And AG1 NextGen is the result clinically shown to help fill common nutrient gaps and support gut health even in people who already eat well. In one study, it boosted healthy bacteria in the gut by 10 times. And if you're still unsure, they've got a 90-day money back guarantee, so you can buy it and try it for 3 months. If you don't like it, they'll give you your money back. Right now, you can get a year's free supply of vitamin D3, K2, and five free AG1 travel packs, plus the 90-day money back guarantee by going to the link in the description below or heading to drink ag.com/modernwisdom. That's drinkagg.com/modern wisdom. You mentioned chaos there. Do you think that humans have always been plagued by the need to keep themselves busy or is this a as hustle and grind culture as much of a modern phenomena as YouTube essays would have us believe? Um, I think it's very hard to sit with yourself because there's panic about what you might discover. You know, one of the fascinating things is why are we so easily distracted? Why can't we sit with our thoughts? The reason is there's so much about our thoughts that is mixed up with sadness, regret, fear, etc. And it takes courage. It literally takes courage. Which is why the best places to think are often those where there's a little bit of distraction and a possibility for introspection. >> Have you got any Have you got any places that you do that yourself? >> Trains. Trains. I mean, we think we invented railways to go from, you know, London to Manchester or New York to Philadelphia. We didn't. We invented them as places to think because in a half empty carriage, what better place than to get to know not the destination but yourself. You're looking out of the window and there's enough distraction from the telegraph poles going by or the birds overhead. There's enough to kind of take your imagination, you know, to to kind of tether the more anxious sides of you, but there's also enough encouragement to keep going and keep making, you know, discoveries. It's really hard to think when thinking is all you're meant to do. I mean, if you want to terrify somebody, put them in a blank room and give them a sheet of paper and go write out who you are and what you're really concerned about. You know, that's panicinducing. If somebody, you know, why do our best thoughts come to us in the shower? You're not supposed to be thinking in the shower. You're just, the mind is let loose from an agenda. That's when the good thought comes through. >> Good thoughts are charged with anxiety. Thinking is an anxious process. And so, we need to give ourselves a little bit of comfort. That's why people often like to work in a cafe. It's like the reason is there's a lot of bustle around. That bustle is absorbing the nervous energy and allows sometimes a good thought to come through. I think much better if I have a pen in my hands. And from 18 years of full-time education, you know, just sitting in lectures and and class and twirling a pen through my fingers. You're right. It blows off just that additional bit. For me, uh, my favorite place for thinking is doing the washing up >> dishes because you're not supposed to be doing the thinking. And and also dishes are so amazing because you go from real mess to real tidiness in three and a half seconds. It's so quick. And >> the problem with the modern world is that so many of the things we want to do take so long. And you know the great thing about a pre-industrial world is that we used to be able to achieve things within a handy time scale. You know, you ran a bakery and in the morning you had the flour and you put it together and the yeast and then it had risen and then you sell it and then you know on and on it goes and in in a 24-hour cycle you've gone through the whole thing. Nowadays most people work in organizations a thousand 2,000 people. They're working on projects that will take years to come to fruition. Um I some think why do people love sports? Again sports take place within a concentrated time period. You know a football match is 90 minutes. Within 90 minutes there will be an objective, a goal, a victory, defeat, etc. It's it's manageable. Most of us have lives in which the pitch is 8,000 kilometers long. [laughter] The the game takes 20 years to you know there's there's 25 balls. There's 18 goalpost. You don't know what's going on. You lose the thread of your own life and of the game that you're meant to be playing. Which is why [clears throat] so many of us have crisis where we think, "Hang on a minute. What am I supposed to be doing?" Because we're within complex organizations that deny us that clarity of the earlier pre-industrial world. What is an existential crisis in your opinion? I mean, it's a word that it's a word that sometimes people reach when the they feel that the the building blocks of their life have ceased to make sense. that um for all sorts of reasons the place they find themselves in no longer feels like it makes sense anymore. You you might have a sense of why am I in this relationship? Why am I in this job? Why do I live in the country I live in, etc. And existential crisis are good things. We should have them. They are they are positive things. They often happen on a Sunday evening. Sunday evening is that that moment in the week when um there's a there's a gap to question why am I me? what what's this assumption that I have about what I should be doing and to regularly submit yourself to a complete existential audit as it were to go could I be someone totally different is is it all gone wrong etc. um that's a sign that you're a questioning person. Don't get me wrong, it's terrifying. It's terrifying to feel that most of what we what we're doing is slightly arbitrary. There is no necessity. We tell ourselves, well, I have to do this and I have to be here and and you know, the existential insight is no, you don't. We're all completely free. We could be doing other things. We there necessity is one that we're putting on ourselves, but that's dizzying. I mean, that's existential vertigo. And we think, "Oh my god, I've got so much possibility that I don't know where to start." And going back to the busyiness, the hustle and grind when the base level of noise is very loud. It's very hard to hear those more subtle whispers of fleeting thoughts. As uh my therapist talks about, uh pay attention to fleeting thoughts. M >> uh but fleeting thoughts easily get drowned out if you've got a ton of really loud fastmoving ones like oh I I must get that project finished before tomorrow and I have all of these emails to do and it's very busy I must get the gym's going to be hard because those road works on the on the the the street outside of my house. I love the idea of fleeting thoughts that you know because what do we mean? We mean thoughts that are on the outer perimeter of consciousness um that have some clue as to what we should be doing next in all sorts of areas. They're carrying >> part of that metal detector again. >> Yeah, they're carrying hints, suggestions, but they're hard to reach because again they're they're to do with learning and we don't like learning. Learning is really difficult because it throws into question how we are how we've been doing things and to be able I mean there should be classes on this you know how to land your fleeting thoughts. Plato had this idea that thinking was like an avary in which birds are flying around all the time. And the philosophical challenge is to land those birds and be able to study them. But most of the time they're they're whizzing in and out. And so they're not just fleeting thoughts, they're racing thoughts and to be able to still things enough. I sometimes think a very basic exercise to lie down in bed and ask yourself, what am I really feeling? What's really going on? I I know I know what's supposedly going on, but what am I feeling behind the feeling? What's the feeling behind the feeling? And to be able to make that hierarchy of the surface and the depths, and to realize that there's likely to be something going on in the depths all the time that's a bit different, uh an anxiety, a sadness, a worry, a desire for tenderness, whatever it is. Um if you can be somebody who gives space to the fleeting thoughts, um you're going to become a much richer human being. And remember the old adage, we can only go so far with other people as we've gone with ourselves. We can only be interesting to other people in so far as we've paid attention to the more neglected bits of ourselves. And one of the weirder bits of social life is some people make you feel quite boring and other people make you feel really interesting. Isn't that a weird thing? Why is that? The people who make you feel boring are people who haven't opened many doors in themselves. And you pick it up instantly. And so therefore, when they go, "What was your weekend like?" You go, "Um, I don't know." Because suddenly you realize there's nothing that I could say that's meaningful about my weekend that they would understand cuz they haven't gone into those more interesting bits. Whereas if somebody's giving off that vibe of I've opened many doors in myself, we have so much to say to them. and they feel safe in doing the same. >> But also, you'll feel understood. I mean, let's let's take podcasting. Why are some people good podcasters? Why why can some people get stuff out of people and other people can't? And it's it's fascinating. Um, and we've become used in the modern world to very highquality podcasts because the people who have famous podcasts are generally those who can really do it. But why can they do it? Is it because they can ask a good question? Nah, it's not that. It's because they've gone far in themselves. The the uh interlocutor feels it and then they go deep in themselves. >> Mhm. >> So, the reason I'm babbling with you and I can have tons to say to you is cuz I know I and I don't know intellectually. I just know in a sensory way that you've gone very far in all sorts of ways. And I think I could tell this guy anything and he'd go, "Yeah." And that gives encouragement. So that fascinating distinction, someone who makes you feel interesting and someone who makes you feel boring, it's the other person that's doing the work. Even though they may be hardly saying anything, it's in the eyes. It's in the twitch of the mouth. It's all there. I adore that idea. I uh took inspiration from that video of yours and coined inverse charisma. Uh some people are interesting, some people make us feel interesting. And a lot of the time, especially young guys, they want their stories to be electric and their aura to be magnetic and they walk into a room and for everybody to feel impressed. But when I thought about the sort of people that I liked spending my time around the most, it wasn't necessarily the ones that were the most impressive. I might walk into a room and I'd be very happy to see them, but nobody else might notice. And I would try my very best to sit next to them at dinner because I knew that that would be the most sort of fruitful ground. Have you ever heard that story about Jenny Jenny Jerome Winston Churchill's mother? >> So she went she was a little bit of a a starlet type socialite person and she got to go for dinner with Benjamin Israeli and William Gladstone on consecutive nights separately and she said uh when I finished dinner with Draeli I felt like he was the smartest man in all of England. When she finished dinner with William Gladstone she said I left that dinner feeling like I was the smartest woman. And some people are interesting, some people make you feel interesting. But you know, it's really important to say this is not flattery. When someone makes you feel interesting, it's not that they're flattering. You go, "Oh, that's amazing." It's not that they genuinely unleash an interest which is actually in you. You see what I mean? It's not it's not a contract. People are interesting, but they need a an audience to release that interest. Um, it's not it's not mere flattery. It's opening doors in the other person on the basis that you've opened doors in yourself. I'm interested in the temptation to intellectualize emotions. You know, you were talking before ask the sort of why beneath the why and uh getting below the neck as it's known in embodiment. Okay, fantastic. We have this very developed who was that um philosopher that talked about being a philosopher is like being a a mouse with a huge oversized ear on its back. uh you know you have this one particular thing that you've grown to monstrous size and anybody that is smart can do the work but doing the work is just turning feelings into theories >> and I wonder I'm interested in this temptation of how to overcome intellectualizing emotions as opposed to actually sitting and and and and feeling them. >> What's wrong with intellectualizing? intellectualizing gets a bad name because at some point it ceases to have an accurate relationship to reality. So in other words, your theory has left behind um you know the facts. Your map is no longer mapping the territory accurately. That's what's wrong with it. There's nothing wrong with having a map, but there's something very wrong with having a a misguided map. And I think when we when we say intellectualizing is bad, it's it's when it when it gives us a rather rigid description of the territory which no longer sees the actual full complexity of the terrain it's aiming it's purporting to represent. >> And so what do we need to do? We need to constantly check our maps against the territory. In other words, we need to think, okay, I've got this nice, neat theory. Maybe I need to blow it up because it's liable to have grown a bit stale. I need to, you know, I need to head out head out back into the world and assume I know nothing. Blow up my theory in order to build a better one. So, it's not about abandoning. I think, you know, humans are naturally theory makers. >> There's nothing wrong with that. There's something wrong with clinging to outdated theory. >> If you hold it too tightly, that's an issue. I've got this uh visual in my mind. the difference between a way marker which is being planted to give you an idea of the terrain and a tether to which you were attached. Oh, I can't move from this thing anymore. This made sense 5 years ago when I first left university and that explained where I was at and it gave the chaos in the world a sense of order. I kind I understood where I was going and what was happening. Oh, if that no longer has accurate explanatory depth, I need to come up with a new theory. And that's scary. I I have to start all over again. You tell me I have to start all over again. I think we regularly have to start all over again. And I think you know that old adage Socrates was asked why he was so wise and he was said that he was so wise because he knew that he wasn't wise. In other words, ignorance, a capacity to acknowledge one's ignorance is at the root cause of sophisticated thinking. that you should be returning to a kind of basic ignorance. Remember the story of Picasso who went to an art school uh in old age and he looks at some children uh scribbling and doing drawings and he said you know when I was their age I could paint like Raphael and now I'm learning again how to paint like them. >> Um that's really a story about giving up the old map and allowing oneself to be ignorant again. And I think that's a true gift we give to ourselves when we allow ourselves to say, you know what, I don't know very much at all. I mean, people often say to me, they must say this to you, you know, people say to me, oh, you must know so much about, you know, love or death or this or that. You know, you spend all time thinking, and I rush to tell them, I literally don't know anything. Um, and I'm not, this is not false modesty. It's a genuine sense that, um, you know, with every passing day, I I know less. Um, and you know, it's not even wisdom. It's just comedic really. >> With every passing day, I know less. I love that. >> Yeah. This the the other thing to consider there is that almost everyone's body of work is a thinly veiled autobiography. >> Yeah. >> You are looking to the person who has put the most time into this. Why do you think I put the most time into this? because I see me as most efficient in precisely all of the different areas that I am focusing on. >> 100%. Exactly. So, someone who's, you know, providing a a guide to goodness probably finds goodness really hard. Somebody who's really interested in wisdom is really in touch with the chaos in them and in the world. You wouldn't do it otherwise. You're right. It's it's a compensatory activity >> and so be it. So we should never look to you know our gurus to actually be somebody go oh you know I thought they'd be wise and then I you know I saw them cursing at the airport and said you know what a fool they are you want to go of course they did that no you know they're so invested in maintaining a sort of adult poise of course they're going to have a fragile hold [laughter] on it they wouldn't bother otherwise and that's okay that's absolutely fine >> I think uh I mentioned this to you last time but I think it's one of the reasons why uh your work in particular Oliver Burkeman who wrote 4,000 Weeks. This very sanguin look at human nature. It's got a distinctively British quality to it, which I love. This sort of uh doesn't get too big for its boots. It's kind of got a carry-on camping uh sort of signature to it. >> I [laughter] mean, look, bless the Americans, but the problem with America is that it was started by people who thought you could build Jerusalem on this earth. That you literally could build a city on the hill here and there. Um whereas you know European culture was a tragic culture which essentially s thought as of human beings as inherently flawed the play things of the gods and unable to master the show until maybe the next life but definitely not this one which immediately creates a comedic modesty around the gap between your aspirations and your reality. And so growing up in Britain, I mean Britain doesn't do many things well, but one of the things it really does well is a kind of melancholy dark humor. I mean, this is the home of the Smiths. This is the home of Monty Pythons. This is, you know, these people are latching on to the fact that life is absurd, dark, and that the most sophisticated response is a kind of rich, somber, hilarious laughter. Um, and you know, the the reason why America has changed the planet so radically is that it's made up of people who think that such a thing is possible. And you don't have to wait till the next world. You do it right here and now with some tools and you go to Silicon Valley and off you go. And it's wonderful. It's created, you know, wonders of the world. However, psychically, my goodness, the toll has been enormous. enormous because it forces everybody in that society to measure themselves against an ideal which is so punishing. So you know the secret sorrows of the American heart is a volume without end. It's a very big volume because this is a society that puts its people under unbelievable psychic stress >> because of blue sky thinking. You can do all of these things. I wonder whether uh it's one of the reasons why uh victimhood culture and its sort of modern incantation uh hasn't quite caught on in the UK in in maybe the same way as it's often sort of the finger is pointed at because if you're a child and you're told you can be whatever you want to be the sky the sky is not even the limit. You can go beyond that and and go further. The the literally a South African living in America is the guy that's going trying to go past the moon. >> Yeah. >> To go and do this thing. Uh it's it's the paradox of meritocracy, isn't it? You know, we hear a lot about this idea of trying to build a society where everybody gets to where they merit to be. And it's a wonderful idea, beautiful idea. But if you really think that you can create a society where everyone deserves to be where they are, my goodness, you're going to have a problem explaining why you failed in that society. Because not only is success merited, but so is failure. which is why failure is so crushing if you really believe in meritocracy in in certain European countries in a tragic idea. No one thinks it's a meritocracy. Everyone thinks the whole system is is random. It's rigged. The ancient Greeks were obsessed by the idea of the arbitrary nature of fate because the gods are in control of human destiny. Not not humans. Humans can't control their destiny. But in the modern American view, of course, you control your destiny and you are responsible. Which is why, you know, American the American word for someone who hasn't succeeded is a loser. >> The loser is somebody who's played a game which had fair rules and they've messed up and therefore they deserve no pity and they just deserve to be called a loser. Which is why the more meritocratic the system is, the more psychological pressure there is, the more impulse there is to kill yourself if you don't succeed. I mean, suicide rates skyrocket the more people believe that individual destiny reflects the essence of who you are. And suicide rates fall when the explanatory factor is thought to lie outside the individual. >> Whereas the ancients would call those losers unfortunates. >> 100%. >> Lady Fortuna. >> Yeah. And I mean you the the the Greeks I mean if you read any Greek history, folk tales etc. The ancient Greeks are obsessed by the by the notion of the gods are pulling us like marionets all the time. >> Lady Fortune is the one with the >> the wheel. >> Well, the tiller. The tiller. >> No, I thought it was a a set of scales. Is it not scales that balance out? I was also a tiller, you know, like a ship and able to control destinies and often a cornucopia as well, holding lots of goods. So, if Fortuna is in a good mood, she'll chuck you lots of lovely stuff and she's a bad mood, she'll just, you know, um, adjust the tiller and off you go to your death. If you haven't been feeling as sharp or energized as you'd like, getting your blood work done is the best place to start, which is why I partnered with Function. They run lab tests twice a year that monitor over a 100red biomarkers. 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Well, I I seem to remember a story from him where he was imprisoned and and loads of things went wrong and he was sort of in his 50s and he wasn't able to see his family and all of this stuff and one of his friends came to him and was you know lamenting the fact how much has gone wrong. He must be so despondent. He said, "Well, look at the first 50 years of my life. Look how blessed Lady Fortuna had sort of come and you know I guess I've you know the scale or the cornucopia you sort of run a little bit dry. I had a great you great crack at it for the first however many five decades." I mean the Stoics were fascinating in that they they had academic um discussions about if a wise person how should a wise person look at having two legs and losing one leg. It's like how many legs do you need in order to be happy? >> And the sort of position that you would get to after lots and lots of study of stoic thought is um the wise man uh appreciates having two legs but can cope with having only one. Um, and that's that's really sort of the essence of stoicism that you want to have two legs. It's okay to want two legs, but it's also uh you will know how to cope with only one leg. That's that's years and years of stoic study. >> You mentioned last time about the uh the virtue of of pessimism, sort of melancholy, a great British tradition. And [clears throat] I wonder how you think about people learning to be a little bit more hopeful. Sort of the opposite side of that because yes, we we definitely do have what what was the thing that they said in Harry Potter? Uh mischief managed. They said to make the the marauder's map go away. Uh melancholy managed. I feel like we've got melancholy well managed. However, uh the other side to Fortuna this um how can people learn to be a little bit more hopeful? Look, I love that very simple question. If you knew you couldn't fail, what would you want to do? It's a it's such a big question, but such a useful one. It has a elemental simplicity to it. But, you know, if you knew you could not fail, what would you want to do? Um, because people don't even allow themselves to play, you know, if you think about what play is, play is doing something without fearing consequences. You know, let's just do this as a game. Mhm. >> Children know how to play because they're not so scared of consequences. So they'll just give it a shot. And a good adult life does require us to rediscover that freedom of playing. And the way in which we do it is we think if everything went wrong or you know if everything went wrong, it would still be okay. And um and what about the idea of thinking this could go right? There couldn't be any you know massive consequences. So rediscovering play around your ambition um is really important. >> Is that lowering the stakes in a way? >> Yeah. And of course pessimism has a role to play. Um you know there lovely quote from Montain kings and philosophers [ __ ] and so do ladies. Now what he was trying to say there is you know CEOs are he also has another quote. He goes on the highest throne in the world we're seated still upon our asses. He loves to use this sort of pungent French language in which he's basically saying, "Stop being so intimidated by people in power. >> They sit on the toilet every day like you do." So, you know, a lot of people have that secret toilet-based confidence. It's like you're feeling [laughter] really intimidated. >> Toilet confidence. know that your hero heroine is only a few hours, minutes away from going off to defecate and use that as an anchor point to uh relativize their status in relation to you. >> Yeah. The the sort of Jason Pargin's got this great great idea where he says u all of your heroes are full of [ __ ] Your heroes aren't gods. They're just regular people who got good at one thing by sacrificing literally everything else. And you don't get to see that. the the probably one of the most fascinating questions that's captivated me since starting the show is what is the price that people pay in order to be someone that others admire. What are the externalities that are in >> I don't look at it like that because I think that people tend to achieve what they need to achieve. They're not going well I could have you know this sort of life or that sort of life but I'll choose to you know try and win Wimbledon or um go to the moon. I I think they're driven. It's not a choice. >> And uh it's a compulsion. Um and we can feel sorry for that compulsion, but also appreciate that it is a slightly neurotic overcompensation. >> Should you look at successful people with more pity than envy in that regard? >> Sure. I mean, you know, somebody with an outsized need for anything always think what's the opposite of that? What you know, the very funny person, they're really afraid of seriousness. the very wealthy person, they've got a really complicated relationship to a modest income, etc., etc. So, yes, there is a a massive overcompensation which speaks of lack ultimately. It's a lack. Uh, think how poor you must feel in order to make that much money. >> Mhm. >> Think how deprived you must feel inside in order to need that level of status, in order to be thought so special by millions of strangers, how much you must despise yourself. M >> and we know this, every single biography teaches us this. We know this about the lives of everyone who's done an outsized thing in one area. We know there's a relationship >> with the undersized opposite. >> Mhm. Speaking of being special to strangers, why do you think online dating is so miserable reliably for most people? Um, look, I think the problem with online dating is that it teaches us that the main problem with love is finding the right person. And of course, it's one of the issues that we need to locate a candidate who broadly fits certain criteria. But that's probably a lot easier than we tend to think. The real challenge is how do you get on with another human being? And that's not spoken of within dating culture. What dating culture tells us is if there's a conflict or a problem, it's that you're not with the so-called right person, rather than accepting everybody you're likely to find is really problematic. So, as soon as you found a more or less okay candidate, >> do the real work, which is learning how to live with them. >> Um, but but we the emphasis is constantly thrown on that other thing, which is just finding the next shiny object. Um, so it's a it's a massive distractor of effort. It teaches us to place the effort in the wrong place. >> Yeah. Turning the microscope around, turning it from a telescope that's searching to a microscope that's looking at us. Okay. Well, how can you make yourself and this other person into something that's a better unit as opposed to just getting rid of them and moving on to the next and and there's a, [clears throat] you know, there's a tremendous um ingratitude. I mean, people will say, you know, I've swiped through 800 profiles today. And you think what you've just sort of executed as it were 800 800 people are not good for you. That can't be true. It isn't true. Um there's likely to be lots of people in that cohort that were of value. [snorts] But we're encouraged to look through such a narrow lens at at value that we end up discarding. And that leaves I think a kind of moral hangover or sickness because we know we've done something a bit disreputable. >> What's that? uh uh judge you not lest you be judged. You have done a lot of judging so you think this is probably happening to me too. >> Yeah. And so it's an it's a ultimately an unkind world. Um it's you know it's not it's not a world that every anybody particular is responsible for. Most of us are are innocents on this treadmill. But um undoubtedly I think it leads to moral confusion. H I wonder whether when it comes to a relationship and not seeing our partner as the sole source of everything that we need in this life. I wonder whether love is more about >> uh managing disappointment than it is about chasing joy in that way. [snorts] >> Look, the thing is that we can either have the expectations we have um or we can have lower ones. If we're going to stick with the expectations we have around relationships, boy oh boy, do we need to do the work. And this is the problem of our society. We have these sky-high expectations but a serious reluctance to work at it. >> It's like, you know, I I want my partner to be, you know, my ideal co-partner, chauffeur, soulmate, uh, sex partner, blah, blah, blah. All these things. They have to register on all these fronts. Um, and the sole work I'm going to do is, you know, once in a while listen to an Esther Pel podcast and I'm going to think it's going to swing it or if that. And you think, hang on a minute. If this was the flute and you wanted to get good at the flute, you'd be practicing three 3 hours a day. >> So, I think there doesn't have to be anything wrong with the expectations we have. Some people go, "Oh, you know, we've got overly high expectations." Fine. Let's have let's have really high expectations of relationships. Why not? But then do the work and and that means hours and hours, daily hours of practice. >> Um, which involves a lot of learning and a lot of Yeah. giving it a go. That wonderful line from you, compatibility is an achievement of love. It shouldn't be its precondition. Again, this is something which can be built over time as opposed to uh the entry price that needs to be paid before it starts. Exactly. And and it really helps of course if the whole culture is supporting us, if the culture is patient, if the culture tells us, okay, you've had a huge argument, what happens next? Currently, we think, oh, we break up because we've had a we've had a moment of incompatibility rather than this is a massive learning moment. Let's let's go back to school on this. Let's really study this. And you know, we were talking earlier, we're very suggestible creatures. We pick up our cues about the work we should do according to societal nudges. Currently, society is not particularly nudging us to work at some of those rough points in in dialogues with others. What would what is the subtext? What are what are the what are the whispers of what societyy's saying about relationships at the moment? Do you think >> it's basically telling us that if there's a problem, it's that we found somebody with red flags. They may be a narcissist. Uh they could be borderline. Uh they could be, you know, emotionally unintelligent, etc. And therefore in the bin, they they should go in the bin. I mean, the problem with these this red flag language, it's all very well, but if you're going to put everyone in the bin who's a red flag, well, good luck to you. you're not going to have many friends. I mean, you know, there's a lot of red flags around in everybody, including you. So, you as in me, you know, and and it gets exciting when we go, okay, I own up to the red flags. Can we do something about it? And when two people meet each other and go, I know I'm desperately flawed. Can we help each other? I mean, the enemy of relationships is self-righteousness. The enemy is defensiveness. The enemy is people go, "Well, I feel like this and you need to acknowledge that and you know, this is the way it is. These are my boundaries and give way. Give way and and you know, I I've been submissive too long and this is the way it is now." You want to go, "Okay, all right, maybe. But can we can we meet halfway? Can we somehow find a way of having a dialogue that acknowledges we're both in a bit of a muddle here? both likely to be carrying all sorts of, you know, difficulties, blah, blah, blah. Um, that kind of modesty is a saving grace. I mean, when that modesty kicks in, the angels are singing because they know that a relationship is going to be saved. >> My goodness, we waste relationships. You know people people I meet people all the time they go oh well I was together with eight someone for eight years and then you know we were squabbbling so you know I ended it or you know I was with someone for seven years and you know and you think my goodness all those shared jokes all those investments all that faith and then you chuck it all in the sea and you begin again and you might do this seven times in a lifetime how exhausting it is. Now I'm not you know it's not a plea for everyone to stay together at all costs. Obviously, there are relationships you need to exit, >> but you know, there are there's serious grounds for questioning the way certain of these relationships end. You think, [snorts] couldn't there have been a little more patience, a little more forbearance, a little more of an understanding that what you were meeting here was not an incompatibility in one person, but the scale of human intra confusion that you're likely to meet up anywhere. You know, rather than thinking you've met one particularly corrupt human being, it's like, well, you've just met another typical human and you go off and meet another one and in seven years you'll be back to the same place. >> Are there any questions or statements or framings that you have found to be particularly neutralizing? You're in the midst of the back and forth. This is the argument. Maybe it is the seven-year point that you're deep into. Are there any uh ways of beginning a conversation or interjecting into one of those disagreements that uh you have found to be particularly fruitful in bringing the energy down in the room? Of course, I mean everybody everybody knows these but it's worth repeating because we do forget especially at moments of crisis. You know, if you make the other PE person feel heard that even though their reality is not yours, doesn't need to be that you have the wherewithal and the patience to acknowledge, you know, they thought you were insulting them. They read it as an insult. Now, you can immediately go, "No, no, it's not an insult. It wasn't, you know, you can carry on. You know, good luck to you." You know, you can you can argue this in court, but you're not going to get anywhere. So, try another tag. Acknowledge. Okay, I'm hearing that you're really insulted. You can then go on to go, I didn't mean to. This is why there but acknowledge it first, you know. Um, and then also when you're asserting your point of view, don't frame it as universal. Frame it as coming from you. I feel from my point of view, I'm thinking that, you know, not you're an idiot, but in this area, I feel softening language. Maybe, perhaps. The world's been the world can be saved by a few more mayes and perhapses. They're wonderful words. >> Perhaps this or I might, not I will or I am. I might, I may. Softening diplomatic language is goes a lot of along the way. You know that word diplomat, diplomacy, we tend to think of it as a a job for specialists, you know, people who work in the foreign office, in the state department, etc. A diplomat is somebody who's an expert at breaking difficult news into something that another person's going to be able to digest. And we all need to be diplomats. Whatever our jobs, we all need to be diplomats. We all need to be able to have that capacity to to take difficult information and get it across to another person. And so often we think that the truth is going to liberate people. If you if you just tell someone the truth, they'll go, "Oh, wow. Well, then you I accept it. No, no, no. You've got to get around their defenses, their fears, their sense of threatened righteousness. >> That doesn't mean being manipulative or overly flattering or obfiscating or something. >> It means being alive to people's panic. There's there's, you know, whenever there's an argument, there's two frightened people in the room. And it's all very well you hyping up the tension and just asserting how right you are, but really what you need to do is to take care of your own fear and the other person's fear. There's two scared people. All arguments are about fear. And if you can drop down the level and go, we're not really arguing about the teacup, are we? We're not really arguing about, you know, [laughter] we're arguing about two people's fears. If you can drop down to that fear and identify what that fear is, literally ask yourself middle of an argument, what am I really scared of? And ask the other person and also reveal it, you know, and often it's often it's very simple. I'm scared you don't love me. I'm scared that if I stay around here, I'm going to be humiliated and maltreated. If you can say that to another person, first of all, it shifts the template. Suddenly, we're not arguing about the stain on the floor. We're arguing about somebody who's a vulnerable child. Great. Really good starting point cuz then we can take that vulnerable child, give them a hug. >> Alan, you're fantastic. I adored our conversation last year. I've adored this one as well. Uh I can't wait to sit down with you again. That's that's I don't have anything else to say. Thank you so much. >> Thank you very much for tuning in. Honestly, I meant what I said to Alan. That guy has been one of the biggest philosophical influences on me. [music] Uh, another big one is Chris Bumstead, also slightly bigger human than Alan. Um, and he's available [music] right here, so you should check it out.