Civic Impact Summit The Path to 2026

All right, folks. We're probably gonna wait to get firmly started before I give it to Nina in about 30 seconds here, maybe a minute. But I wanted to take the time to introduce ourselves. Um, my name is Alison Sardinas. I'm the director of public affairs at the Center for Election Science, a national nonpartisan nonprofit dedicated to advancing approval voting and just good voting method reform overall. We are very happy that you were here to join us for our inaugural um civic engagement summit. We are probably going to have folks trickle in throughout. Um but in lie of time, we wanted to welcome everyone. Please uh introduce yourself in the chat. Um if you have any questions as well, we're going to have a very packed um discussion today and we're kind of going to go one speaker to another. We don't want you to wait and hold your questions until the very end. Please feel free to put them in the chat. We'll pin some. We're encouraging all of our speakers to uh engage with folks in the chat as well. So, if you have specific questions, make sure to put them as soon as they pop up in your brain. We uh would love to answer them. Um Oh, perfect. I'm seeing some folks in the chat. Saying hello already. Um good to hear it. All right. Um just some really quick housekeeping rules before we go forward, please. Um no spamming, uh no remarks. Um we are trying to keep this an open and happy conversation. uh introducing approval voting and voting reforms to new folks and then also our existing um community and we're really happy to see you here today. Um oh perfect have some folks who we haven't seen in a long time. Hi Ted. Um and with that I would love to pass that to our CEO Nina Taylor. >> Thank you so much Allison and uh good afternoon everyone. Um, thank you so much for joining us for our first civic impact summit. We are so happy to have you uh join us and hear directly about our various initiatives and campaigns um we have moving forward uh to bring better voting to communities across this country. If we've not met, my name is Nina Taylor and I serve as the chief executive officer for the Center for Election Science. And I want to first welcome the many new faces um here today. This event isn't just a place to talk about change. We're here to build community with people who want to build a better democracy. Whether you are a seasoned reform advocate or just starting to learn about our space, we believe in the power of better voting methods. And I really am thrilled to welcome you into our space. Um, if you feel comfortable, please uh pop your cameras on and wave. And as Allison mentioned, uh, drop in the chat where you're calling from. And, um, if you're representing an organization, we'd love to to get a link to your organization and learn a little bit more about your work. We have a lot of resources to share and um, we hope that you're able to learn more through us about approval voting and its potential. Most importantly, this is a collaborative effort. Um, we really do want you to share your work with us. Your insights, your questions, and your energy is what makes this movement strong. We are a reform that is compatible with many other reforms from um audit reforms, open primaries, citizen le assemblies, proportional representation, combating redistricting. We are open to explore with you to elevate a coalition-based movement that reflects the diversity of our communities. When I joined CES uh January of 2024, three things stood out. The amazing dedication of the CES staff who innovate and go above and beyond in missiondriven work of the organization and as a group they are witty and smart and um they have perfected the pivot. I also noticed um the passion of this community to openly debate, share ideas and collaborate nationally and I quickly realized that our story, our shared story is the story of the underdog. My daily uh realities involve advocating for approval voting, which is a simple uh powerful reform that allows voters to select all the candidates they approve of. And this work is important because the current system is holding back our democracy. It forces voters into a false compelling them to vote strategically rather than honestly. And this suppresses genuine political expression and consistently rewards extreme candidates. A setup that of course doesn't reflect the realities of our diverse political views. And we can fix this. It requires both precision and pressure. And so our precise solution is approval voting. It's simple. to powerful reform that shifts elections away from division and towards consensus, giving voters their voices back and ensuring the winner has true and real broad support. And we apply pressure through rigorous datadriven action. We ground our work in policy insights. We invest in citizen-led campaigns. We train coalitions and conduct research to show that approval voting works better. And since 2011, the Center for Election Science has been laser focused on this mission. evolving into a national movement that has successfully partnered with communities across this country from Fargo to St. Louis to implement approval voting. The irony and the source of my deepest professional frustration is this. The greatest obstacle to better democracy isn't the entrenched political system. It's the monopoly that has developed within the reform ecosystem itself. We're operating in a world where for many voters, donors, politicians, and even activists, only one alternative voting method has ever been presented. And this singular focus starves innovation and hampers down the adoption of many of the alternative voting methods that we have signed on with us here today. I find that we face this uphill battle of re-education. The question we and I constantly hear isn't what's the best reform for my community, but isn't this just our CV? And what we see in the landscape is that donors in the philanthropic ecosystem are effectively bankrolling a single brand instead of investing in the overall market of civic innovation. And for those cooled on the promises of RCV, they've repositioned their passion in dollars to support proportional representation, overlooking the reforms that could be implemented today for a shot at structural changes, if not decades from now. What we know through our advocacy is that incremental changes move us quicker, and we're happy to serve as those bridgeuers to get to democracy 2.0. To truly fix democracy, we cannot accept a monopoly over how those fixes are designed. We need donor activists to open up their wallets, their minds to the possibility that the alternative they know is not the only alternative that exists. The health of our democracy depends on allowing the best ideas, not just the best funded ones, to compete fairly. And that is what 2026 is about for us. the fight, the competition, the truthtelling through the data that not only does approval voting work, it works better, quicker, for a hell of a lot less money. And this year, we've dedicated our time to training well for the fight, investing in approval voting advoc advocacy campaigns in Utah, submitting original research to journals. We've successfully advocated for the addition of approval voting and alternative voting methods to the NAACP states voting rights act national resolution in a process that required it to pass locally then regionally then nationally. We've assisted candidates in Ohio, Pennsylvania, Connecticut in shaping their reform policies and built toolkits and infographics during legislative session. We introduced and in some cases reintroduced CES to the foundation space and invested in grant writing. We've served as a strategic advisor and mentor and I am most proud that we have led as a good partner in the reform community. We have not in any capacity stood in the way of any other reform movement. Something that not all reform nonprofits could actually say. and we are making pressure the main f focus for 2026. We're looking forward to our new approval voting pilot projects in Maryland, getting approval voting in more hands of voters. We look forward to more candidates announcing their campaigns and talking openly about the the benefits of approval voting and alternative voting methods to their constituents. We're looking forward to submitting again and acting legislation with bipartisan support in Maryland, Utah, and beyond. and we're looking forward to each of you supporting advancing approval voting in your communities. So, let this moment, this call, um this start, uh be inspiring to each of you, um and and really jumping that inspiration to action because we have an uphill battle and a shared decision and a desire to improve civic engagement and democracy. Through the end of the year, we will host a number of educational sessions on proportional approval voting, tips for drafting and submitting opeds, new toolkits on jerrymandering and redistricting to help each of you talk about the benefits of approval voting and voting reforms to your community. We invite you to join our Discord community to assist in organizing and learning about volunteer opportunities first. And for those of you doing the work, please share your highlights um and opportunities as we work together to advance alternative voting methods. And for today's call, I ask that you be curious and ask questions. Introduce yourselves and your organizations. Consider donating to the Center for Election Science and encourage your networks to check us out to support our momentum building. Your donation keeps us going in a time where funding lacks balance and honesty. We thank you in advance for your contributions. Um, I'd like to now introduce you to my internal partner, uh, Michael Ravinsky, who has been a supporter of CES and an advocate for approval voting for multiple decades. He currently serves as the chair for the CES's board of directors. U, Michael lives in LA where he works as a professional actor and an audiobook narrator, um, which is super cool. uh and he's also been a huge resource to me as we re-engineer the organization and our positioning in this world. And so, welcome Michael Roinsky. >> Thank you. Thank you so much, Nina. And thank you everyone for being here today. I am honored to be a part of this today. Um these are obviously times of great uncertainty and unpredictability. I often feel these days like everything is a series of crisis after crisis. Um, and in the midst of crisis after crisis, it's easy to get distracted by things that seem suddenly urgent. And that's where our energy goes. Because when we're in crisis mode, it's hard to keep our focus on longer term systemic projects and incremental fundamental change. Even though it's that fundamental change that actually fixes things, I've always been a supporter of CES because uh I'm a process person. Instead of fixing the apparent problem with a short-term solution, I would rather identify and fix the fundamental problem that caused it. I would rather disarm future problems by creating an underlying system where government is responsive and legislation is just and good ideas thrive. That's the work we do at CES. We have always kept our eyes on the prize, fixing the fundamental mechanism of American democracy. And our work is now more visible than it has ever been. Google voting is more visible now. Has better name recognition and more supporters across the political spectrum than it ever has. And this is the result of continuous, patient, fareyed, long-term work. This is an incredibly unpredictable moment in our country's journey, but it is also a moment of incredible possibility that has never existed before. Now is absolutely the time to invest heavily in this work to make sure we can capitalize on every opportunity the moment it arises. I hope you like me are excited by the new possibilities for success. And I hope you will double down on your support for CES by increasing your contributions. And perhaps you can support this vital organization with your service. The foundation of CES is its board of directors. These are people who know how valuable our work is, who are professionals in diverse fields and who contribute their time and expertise to guiding the organization. >> Pardon me. Um, we need that if you have experience in politics or in nonprofits, if you have served on a nonprofit board, if you are passionate about our mission, you could be of service on our board of directors. >> If you have an interest in serving on our board, please reach out to me. My email is michaelcience.org and I will put that in the chat. Um, thank you very much. Uh, Nina Allison, is Rob in the building? >> Rob just signed on live from his car. So, >> excellent. Shall I shall I introduce him? >> Yes, please. Rob, are you ready? Thumbs up. All right. Uh, you're muted. All right, Michael. >> Okay. Um, I now have the great pleasure to introduce you to Rob Sand. Rob Sand is Iowa's state auditor and the only Democrat to be elected to statewide office in Iowa in 2022, which speaks to his broad appeal. In the spring, Rob announced he is running for governor of Iowa. Originally from Dora, Iowa, he is a former prosecutor who led the corruption division in the Attorney General's office, famously uncovering the largest lottery rigging scheme in American history. As auditor, he has focused on accountability, rooting out waste and fraud, and created the public innovations and efficiencies program. He advocates for electoral reform, including support for open primaries and the use of approval voting in general elections as a way to reduce partisanship and elect officials who focus on solving problems. Rob has a wife and two sons and a dog. I'm thrilled to welcome you today to our civic impact summit. Rob, take it away, Rob Sand. All right, you have to unmute, Rob. It's >> Yes, I do, don't I? >> Thank you all for having me. Uh, really happy to be here with you. Uh, hello from beautiful Delaware County, Iowa. We are actually out on the campaign trail today. We'll see if our Starlink uh maintains a high enough quality collect connection to chat for seven minutes here. Uh look, this is uh we're doing a hundred public town halls this year. 100. We announced every single one of them at the beginning of the campaign like a rock band going on tour because we actually want people to show up for our events instead of hiding. We do that because we are offering something completely different. We are pushing for the end of the two choice system. I literally just walked out of a town hall in Manchester. This is let's see that was number uh nine of the last two days. I do a 100 town halls every year. We've been talking about election reform both in the town halls that I do as uh state auditor in the past uh but also now as a candidate. Why do we talk about it when I'm as meeting as a state auditor? Because I talk about the ridiculousness of our government outcomes. I talk about the absurdity of what our government is doing and people go why why do they do this? Why do they think that they can get away with this? And the answer is we have a broken two choice system that means that our elected officials don't have to solve our problems to get reelected. They can just demonize our only other option and that neither frankly the Democratic or Republican party solve enough problems to deserve a monopoly on our choices. And you know what? every single head nods. They all say, "Yep, I'm ready to be done with that." So, what are we doing? Look, this campaign's pretty simple. I know that a lot of people um a lot of people say, "Democrats at Iowa. It's pretty tough there." Well, um sure. But, uh as Michael mentioned, I was the only Democrat to win statewide in 2022. I also won in 2018. For seven years prior to that, I prosecuted public corruption at the Iowa Attorney General's office, including uncovering the largest lottery rigging scheme in American history. So people know that I have a record of accomplishment, but also a record of a record of accountability for people in positions of trust and power in society. And the two-party system is no different. I look at this and I say there's no reason to do this. The time has come for it to end. And people are absolutely ready for that. Now, it's a little bit harder to get across the line as a Democrat in Iowa, but when people hear me talk this way, they understand that at the end of the day, I'm wearing the party affiliation, but I don't have bosses out in Washington DC. One of the uh one of the stories that I often say to illustrate that is, you know, we had the uh the DNC send a public records request to our office for all allegations of wrongdoing by our current Republican governor, Iowa Governor Kim Reynolds. We sent them back a null set and said, "We can't do anything. We shouldn't give you anything. We don't think under Iowa law you're supposed to get it." They sent the same records request a second time. Like we hadn't seen the uh the letterhead, like we hadn't noticed who it came from. We know who it came from. Same answer. We shouldn't have political parties that believe that they are the bosses of this system. We should have the people in charge. And when we have the people in charge, I just walked out of there and I just explained what the impact is uh when you have approval voting. I said politicians, even the most cynical, dark-hearted ones of the bunch, will have a reason to actually be nice to their opponents. And they will have a a reason to be honest about their opponent's records because they want as many of their opponents hardcore supporters as possible to also approve of them. And at the end of the day, what it means is that we would have politicians that behave more like, get ready for it, regular human beings. And a and a woman in the audience literally goes, "Amen." And another man at a different part in this just started clapping. People are ready for this. It is not complicated. They understand it intuitively. They are ready to go. All we got to do is keep talking about it. We'd love to have uh I'm I'm glad to tell you about our candidacy and tell you about this campaign because if anyone's interested in helping, we'd love to have your help. But I think that Iowa is a great place to push for this. We had uh we've had a proud tradition of uh political reform telling politicians, "Yeah, we just don't trust you that much." First state in the country to have an independent redistricting commission uh to prevent gerrymandering that came from Iowa. first state in the country to have a merit-based judicial selection system that came from Iowa. And we have another a number of other reforms too that we have pushed that just make government work better for ordinary people. This to me seems like the natural next step for the state of Iowa and that proud tradition of saying no to politics as usual. Um so this is something I'm passionate about. Nina heard me spout off about it when we met. I could go forever. I know I've got just seven minutes, but I want to say to all of you who are also active and pushing for this, I do believe it's a really important part of our future. I think that when we talk about ballot freedom and the next big emancipation struggle, it's the idea that people who are frustrated with their political parties from across the political spectrum can come together to actually battle against both of those parties and end their shared monopoly at the ballot box. This is going to be a push that we make the whole way through this entire campaign. And I passionately believe in it. And every time I talk about it to a bunch of people who've never heard about it before, they say, "Amen. Sign me up." >> That's about seven minutes. If it's not, it's close enough. >> It is. Thank you so much, Rob. I'm wondering if you would be open to just taking a few questions and maybe even some questions from our folks um before we head to the next segment. And so, um, I it was like the easiest conversation to have. We chatted before you announced, um, and we kind of just talked about our shared interest in this work. Um, and how important this would be for, I think, the reform community as a whole. And so assuming you were elected governor, um what's your first step for introducing election reform given the Republican control of the Iowa legislature? And how do you plan to build a a bipartisan and quite frankly nonpartisan coalition for something as fundamental as changing the state's voting system? >> So there's other good organizations that have been at work on this uh for some time. Better Ballot Iowa advocates uh for election reform in the state of Iowa. Uh their their membership is I believe now in the tens of thousands. Um and there's other people in the state who are also pushing for this and they've done a good job of building cross party coalitions, the kind of people that you need to get this done. Um I'm also a believer in the idea of litigation strategies. I think that there's some things uh in the Iowa Constitution that would help promote and protect this kind of uh effort to make sure that political power is in fact rooted in the people as opposed to political parties. And I think that a litigation strategy that's successful combined with me being governor means that the reforms that would have to be made if the current system is said to be unconstitutional uh would exactly where we want to be. That's good for everybody other than, you know, the 15 people who who really uh who really enjoy the power that they hold right now in Iowa. >> Absolutely. So many Ians are deeply entrenched in one of the two major parties and and I learned about some of the issues that you even faced in going into these ruby red districts to just kind of talk to people as a candidate and how some of those um uh folks that invited you got their hands popped uh you know for actually inviting you and listening to what to say. Um, and so how how how have you seen our current system play out in a way that you and and essentially how you're running and and talking about approval voting in a way that could be the future, right? So like are you are you literally modeling what the future of good public policy looks like? >> Yeah, I I'm I'm I'm doing my best to do that in a system where most of the incentives run the other way. I am placing what you might call a significant bet on the idea that people in the state that I know and love the best are sick of politics as usual and ready for something and someone that not only does it differently but that also wants to change it for everybody. I believe that that's true and you're exactly right. Um, you know, I've we've had a number what's been amazing about this campaign is the number of people who come from crazy crazy different places who all go they hear the message of this campaign and they go, "Sign me up." >> Yeah. >> And what I'm what I'm talking about specifically, a guy who's 28, he's never voted. He bumps into me in a mall in Cedar Rapids and he says, "I'm going to register to vote to vote for you because of the idea that you should be bigger than Democrats versus Republicans." And then we had a guy who wrote an entire op-ed about this, about how the message of this campaign and about how broken our system is and and basically uh doing all everything but endorsing me. This is 15 months before election day. And the man that wrote the op-ed had recently been in the cabinet of Iowa Governor Kim Reynolds, a cabinet position he was recommended for by US Senator Joanie Ernst. And so there are people who have never touched our political system, who have literally never registered to vote, who say, "Yeah, sign me up." And then there's guys that have been in the room when it happens, right, who were helping make the sausage, who say, "Yeah, sign me up." >> And then you contrast that with a a conservative group that I spoke with and when they when they announced publicly that I was going to do a town hall with them, like you mentioned, the the headquarters for the Republican party called them up and read him the riot act for daring to have me come to speak. Think of think of the arrogance. Think of the arrogance and the entitlement that it takes to call a group of citizens in America, the land that Toqueville wrote about about our voluntary associations and our civic groups to call them up and say, "Hey, you can't talk to people in the other political party. >> That's how bad it has gotten in Iowa." >> Yeah. Yeah. Thank you for sharing that. Um, a couple questions from our audience. Um, Felix wants to know, "Can you influence the DNC to adopt approval voting?" >> Probably not. I'm not a DMC member. I've never been to one of their conventions. I'm sure they're a lot of fun. >> Not uh not probably their guy. Not from right where I sit right now. >> Maybe that is a >> If I win this if I win this race, maybe. >> Yeah. >> Frankly, I and I, you know, I'll say this. I think if I win this race, right, running as someone who has always been frustrated with the two-party system, there will be people who are emboldened to do the same thing in other states because they say, "Okay, we can do that. That works." >> The way the path forward is by having a few test cases where we prove that yes, people are ready for this first and this is one of them. >> Yeah. Absolutely. Eric Rod wants to know, you had a great appearance on the Andrew Yang podcast. Do you see any opportunities to partner with the forward party more generally? >> Um, I I I I really like Andrew Yang. You know, we we we disagree on the idea in general of starting the third party versus working within the system to push the reforms that we can have the third party. Uh, I'll collaborate with anybody on anything if it's think is going to move things forward. >> Yeah. And Neil wants to know um your thoughts around risk limiting audits and proportional representation. >> Proportional representation I like. Um it would be better than what we're doing now. If people ask me about that, that's what I say. >> Yeah. >> I think that I think that a single open primary coupled with approval voting at the end uh does a heck of a lot of good to get us to where we need to go. Would I oppose proportional representation? No. But I I think the ability to convince people and explain to them a public primary followed by approval voting is is very simple. Um and proportional representation is not complicated but not as simple. I guess I'll just put it that way. >> All right. And final question. Um would you recommend to other candidates because we've actually got some folks on this call who have yet to announce um would you recommend to other candidates to include approval voting or voting reform as a part of their policy platform? >> Yes, >> strenuously. Absolutely. Look, people are pissed off and of course they are. Is there anybody on this phone call that's not fed up with politics? Right. So is everybody else. So, show them that you genuinely feel it and that not just you feel it, but you want to do something about it. And the way to do that is by literally talking about these issues. And Michael, I see your point. We I know we don't have a policy section on our website yet. Um I am out there on it. Nina can tell you that. She's been following me for a while. Uh I do not shut up about this stuff, much to the chagrin of some of my campaign staff. Um, but yeah, I'm a I'm a believer in it and I think the more people that are running this as a campaign issue, the more it gets elevated, the better chance we have to get it adopted everywhere. And I want to say too, I don't think that we need to do this in 50 states. We need to do it in three to six of the correct states where we can then have six to 12 US senators who are just bottom line serve the people focused and not trying to favor a political party or a political establishment. instead. If we have 6 to 12 US senators doing that in Washington DC, game changer for how the business is done for the United States of America. >> Love it. All right, drop your website and do the plug. >> Sure. Yeah. Yeah. Robsand.com. Uh for anybody who's got an uncle with deep pockets, we have no campaign contribution limits in Iowa. >> I love that for you. >> Thank you. >> Thank you. It's a double it's a double-edged sword, but we're gonna we're I'm gonna share it wherever I go. >> Awesome work. And thank you so much for joining us and talking about approval voting to everyone from those really big cities in Iowa to um the the town halls that have 13 to 15 people. You're you're out there doing the work and we're happy to see it. Um and so good luck to you and be safe out there. Thank your team as well. >> Thanks. And and thank you, Nina, for the work that you do uh with the Center for Election Science. And thanks everybody for being on this call and being an advocate for what I think is the single most important issue to unlocking our potential. >> Thank you. >> Have a good day, everybody. >> Bye, Rob. >> Bye. >> All right. So, that's live, literally live from Iowa. Um I'd like to kind of turn our attention um to essentially how I start my week. uh live from Maryland with Pinnacle Strategies, also on the road. This is how hard we work these people, by the way. Um Brandon Butler as well as Mary Craraver Wagner. Let's talk about Marilyn, y'all. >> You know that. Thanks, Nina. And and Mary said that I wasn't supposed to put her on camera, so what do I do first thing? I put her on camera. Uh, so you know, I I started listening to Michael and it's like, man, who turned on a podcast or who turned on the the audio book that I'm I'm going to have to go look look up your performances, sir. So, uh, thank thank you, Nina. Thank you, uh, Allison. My name is Brandon Butler and as Nina said, uh, I own the firm of Pinnacle Strategies and we are proud to work with the Center of Election Science, uh, here in Maryland as we navigate the political landscape and not only the political landscape, but the landscape of the legislative session. Uh, Maryland is a part-time legislature. uh we meet 90 days out of the first part of the year. But don't don't let that fool you because a lot of the work is done right now uh as we are continuing to build the coalitions that uh we have built over the last two legislative sessions. You know, I I I went back and I started thinking of um pulled off pulled off the road. Mary was proud of that. Uh and uh and was was really thinking of what was said has been said already. Uh first, you know, uh Rob said the the word amen. Uh and it it went back to the root of that. And if you look at the word amen, it means so shall it be. Uh and so not only are we speaking about reforms but uh but truly the reforms take I I think three things. One is community and we've talked about that. It's building building upon the relationships we already have whether that's in the legislature whether that's in your community but building on uh building on those relationships. the people that you know no uh you are an a already a validator of the of the information and the reform that we're setting forth here uh with the center for election science and approval voting. Uh second it takes investment uh it takes the investment of time it takes the investment of effort. It takes the investment of knowledge. this last legislative session, as Nino uh referenced, we had really canvased the halls of Annapolis and provided a a a number of pieces of information about what approval voting actually is. Uh because at the end of the day, there's a lot of knowledge gap uh among legislators around what approval voting is and what it isn't. And hey, is this is this just RCV light or is this another thing? Uh and so we were able to not only tell the story of approval voting but also tell the story about how this is different than uh than RCV making that distinct distinguishing characteristics between uh RCV that is that costs or that's costly whether that's in uh the that knowledge investment to to voters whether that is uh in whether or not RCV works within uh systems uh uh s the systems that are already in place for voting. Uh and so it it's that time, effort, and and knowledge that that requires uh investment as well as the uh let's face it, as well as donations. Uh and finally, it's impact. Uh you know, when we started two years ago, uh with the Center for Election Science, I went to a Republican uh to put forward a bill in Maryland. Imagine that. a a a Republican uh that uh that not only uh it was was somebody that that was a adopter of common sense approach, but honestly was a guy that that was all about community. uh in Senator Mike McCay. Uh he has been our our uh supporter and our uh sponsor of legislative efforts uh and really focusing on building that bridge from communities to municipal races and then working our way up uh building on CES's grassroots movements uh that you've been able to capitalize on other states. Uh and so uh we're we are pushing forward. Uh speaking of municipalities, we're having conversations with with municipalities every day talking about the uh about how approval voting is uh is a lot different a lot different than uh than what you may have heard uh of other reforms that are out there. Uh and so we we look forward to continuing our work with the Center for Election Science. uh Nina and Allison, we uh we thoroughly enjoy our Monday mornings. Uh and uh and that's that's a little bit of what's happening in Maryland. >> Thank you so much. And we're looking forward to continuing that work next year and deepening not only the impact um in terms of how we present um you know during legislative session, but um really getting approval voter voting in the hands of voters in in Maryland. >> All right. Thank you so much. Um, I'd like to now, >> um, I'd like to now pivot over to St. Louis. Um, so I'd like to introduce Felix Sergeant. Felix is a seasoned engineering leader who builds high performance teams and scalable software while advocating for better democratic systems. And so, Felix has served as a former chair for the Center for Election Science and will now share data insights from St. Louis. Over to you, Felix. >> Thank you so much, Nina. And I want to say thank you so much for putting this all together. It's been really excellent seeing uh all the different speakers and uh I've never been more fired up about the uh the momentum that we have as CES. Uh so uh I'm excited to go over some of the data. So I'm going to be sharing my screen. Hopefully that should all pop up. And so this is the website I put together called approval.vote. Um one this is inspired by Paul Butler's rank.vote vote, which goes over rank choice voting uh uh elections. And it's important, I think, to start off with this history because when you look at rank choice voting, you have these Oh, no. I want to go to back to the San Francisco election with Ed Lee a long time ago. um you had these uh elections where there are a ton of candidates and a ton of different runoffs and then you see people get eliminated one after the other and you have this very long seni diagram as some votes will then you know flow down into different candidates as they're eliminated till eventually it ends up picking a candidate and all of this data and all of this insight is only available not just from the summary from the from the total outcome you have to have the cast vote record the cast vote record is uh a like sometimes it's an actual image of every single ballot that you have, but it's like how did how did the actual marks happen on the ballot as opposed to what happened when they were all summed up. And the cast vote record gives us the the the the best window into the minds of the voter when they're at the ballot booth. And the reason that this is so important is well one, it allows us to generate these reports for things like rank choice voting, but um and and even more importantly for rank choice voting, it allows us to identify scenarios where um the the winner of the election was not the winner who would have beat everyone head-to-head. This of course is a very important thing to to know about when a voting method is actually failing because you cannot get that from the um from the basic summary. But um in uh the interesting thing is when we got approval voting passed in Fargo, North Dakota in 2018 and even in St. Louis, they were using old voting machines and they don't have past vote records. And so we couldn't get that kind of data. All we could get was the um the summary information where you just see who won, which you know is useful as a as a catalog. Um but it's not able to generate the kind of interesting data that we we really want to take a look at. But here it is um rendered in in website form. The uh cast vote record data. The most important thing about this data is it allows us to prove to people that bullet voting is not a concern. This is one of the major things that the rank choice voting uh proponents will say is well if you can vote for anyone people always have their favorites and why wouldn't they just vote for their favorite? And the answer to that to to prepare you for that conversation is always that would be great. But people don't vote for their favorites. People vote for against uh people vote for the lesser evil candidate. They vote for who they think they can beat the person they hate the most as opposed to what they really want. Now under an approval voting election, you never have to worry about voting for your favorite because every candidate runs independently. Um and this is exactly what we see in the data where candidates are able you know there are the majority of voters who vote still voted for just one candidate in that election. So, for example, 61% um uh of the votes were um for Tara Spencer only approved Tara Spencer, but the uh there's still 30% uh vote with two um with two votes. Then, uh there are some people who vote for uh like not just Tara Spencer, but also Tishara Jones and Mike Butler, but not Andrew Jones for whatever reason. And then it means that we can get these interesting correlations here. So we can see that Mike Butler and Andrew Jones had a lot of the same constituency. The co-approval matrix uh I found especially interesting because while we don't have preference here, what we can tell is that people who voted, let's say you really like Andrew Jones. Well, you might think, well, I voted for Andrew Jones, but I'm also going to vote for Mike Butler because it um uh uh yes, so Andrew Jones and Mike Butler have 45% um uh co- approval. Then uh you also see that Cara Spencer is also widely liked. So maybe I voted for Andrew Jones, but I also voted for Car for Cara Spencer. 67% of voters who who voted that way um came out with that on income. Now, you can say, "Well, I voted for Cara Spencer." Just because you voted for Cara Spencer does not mean it's very likely that you're going to vote for Andrew Jones. But my favorite thing in all of this data is the anyone but analysis. Because if you vote, let's say, all of the voters who voted for everyone but Deshara Jones. And I'm very sorry because I I um you know no one it's it's not flattering to have data which which shows that someone really wasn't like but it's very interesting to see that of the of the votes where they voted for everyone but 67% 64% um um voted for or against Pashara Jones explicitly. You can't get that kind of data in choose one voting. And even in right choice voting, you don't get this full matrix of preferences. The simplicity of approval voting allows us to learn so much more of the voters's true preferences. And um especially now that we've got this data, we have a whole pipeline for ingesting any further elections for St. Louis. And even better, um you know, I'm looking forward to getting this from from Fargo. If anyone has uh connections, please let me know. Um, we're also working very hard to uh add more rank choice voting elections. I'm especially trying to get uh election data from uh Alama County for their rank choice voting elections. And uh hopefully Fargo, North Dakota will upgrade their machines soon enough so that we can uh have a stored record so that we can get the data from there. >> Thank you so much, Felix, for sharing this data story. And I do believe we dropped the links in the chat um on where to find this and we'll continue to update it as there are more elections um that are happening with with approval voting. So, thank you, Felix. >> Thank you. >> All right, now over to Brian to uh chat a bit more about our end of year campaign before we transition into our um next segment all about um uh democracy and in uh in the form of communication with others. So, Bryant, >> hello everyone. Thank you. Uh, thank you all so much for being here. Um, it really means a lot to us to see so many familiar faces. Um, but also some new ones as well. And the fact that we have such a strong turnout for this first ever civic impact summit really says something powerful about the community that we've built together. Um, that's a community that believes in better elections, better representation, and a better democracy. Um, my name is Brian Blend for those who don't know. Um, I'm the donor I'm the director of donor relations and stewardship here at the Center for Election Science. Um, I've been working in the democracy space for a long time. Um, I even knocked on doors when I was 16 before I could vote to canvas in elections. Um, and I've never felt more at home than fighting alongside you all for a future that gives Americans the leadership it deserves because as it was stated before um we voters really don't feel that our leaders represent us. But the truth is um you know we are facing a tough funding landscape and it's not just us but nearly every organization working in the democracy space um is facing similar challenges. Um so earlier this year federal and private funding streams um they started to tighten and they continue to tighten. uh many donors are turning their focus to short-term fights as Michael stated before rather than these long-term structural reforms that truly build resilience. And within the reform community itself, uh there are competing approaches uh some more hostile than others. you know, we have rank choice voting, we have star voting, um there's voting, and all of the different forces are sort of cleavaging and pulling attention from different resources and in different directions. And that creates a challenging reality. But despite all of that, I just want to make it clear that we're not discouraged. Um, and in fact, I would argue that CES is and particularly its fundraising efforts are structurally in a strong position and stronger than it's been in a in a while. Um, we've built a solid foundation for the future. We've been re-engaging old donors. We have a refined grant strategy that allows us to act quickly on new opportunities. And most importantly, we have a vision grounded in real measurable results. Um but like any long-term structural reform, this progress takes time to show. Uh fundraising itself, much like the mission we're pursuing, uh it requires patience, uh persistence, and a belief in the process. And that said, short-term funds are ne need needlessly I'm sorry, short-term funds are needed nevertheless uh to keep this momentum going and to ensure that we can seize the immediate opportunities as they arise. Um and I know we've spoken a little bit more about those. We've spoken a little bit about those opportunities at the top of the hour in Maryland. We're laying the groundwork for pilot studies that will prove what we've already known what we've always known that approval voting is simple that it's powerful and it's capable of transforming uh the representation at every letter at every level. In Utah, we're working to do the same um by helping to fund our lobbying effort lo the lobbying efforts of our partner organizations. Uh we're looking to expand research partnerships with universities like the one we had with Georgetown over the summer. Um, and these are all shovel ready projects. Uh, and that's why I'm asking for your help today. Um, if we can walk away from this event with even $30,000 in dollars in new commitments, that would immediately strengthen uh and get off the ground some of these efforts uh allowing us to provide more resources to our partners on the ground uh and to continue lobbying through the fall um at this critical moment. Um, and I'm just going to share my screen really quick so that um, you have a way to uh, donate if you want to presenter view present. Oh, I have to share my screen, don't I? One moment. Can you all see that? Um, let me know if you can you guys see that or not. Uh, turn on camera. >> I can see you, but I can't see your screen. >> I can't see my screen. I'm not sure why that's not working, but that's okay. >> Yeah, if it's helpful, Allison has dropped the both. >> Alison has the links. Yeah, >> and the donation page. >> Yeah. So, um, if you would like to support our work today, um, there there's a few easy ways to give. Uh, you can donate through the, uh, donation page. um and it'll just take you straight to our secure giving page if you prefer to make a pledge instead. Um so that you're not maybe you're not ready to make a donation right now, but you're ready to commit to one um maybe next month or the month after that. There's also a link in the chat to our pledge form and you can share um your commitment and we'll follow up with you after the event. Um, and for those of you who are giving through donor advised funds, our I our EIN number is located on our giving page. Um, and it's uh quite easy to see and it makes those DAS uh simple to uh process. Um, so I just implore you to if you're able to uh choose to give every contribution, you know, brings us closer to building a fairer, more representative democracy. Um, and I just want to thank you for your time and your trust and your belief in this mission. Um, together we're proving that reform isn't guaranteed that but that it's also funded as well. So, thank you very much. >> Awesome. Thanks so much, Brian. And I appreciate all the hard work that you do and raising critical funds for our campaigns. Um, I'd like to now introduce you all to Micah. Micah is a JD candidate uh of the University of Virginia School of Law, a policy adviser to the pro-democracy media company Mockler Media and co-founder of the Siren Creator Network. He previously served as an elected member of the executive committee of the Texas Democratic Party and as a Biden appointee to the platform committee at the DNC. Michael will address rally and youth support to advance approval voting, the role of social media and advocacy and the need for Democrats to take serious consideration of alternative voting methods. Welcome, Micah. >> Thank you so much, Nina. Um, I remember somebody putting in the chat earlier uh whether Rob could work on getting the DNC to adopt approval voting. So, this is more my domain. Of course, approval voting is something that needs to be a bipartisan thing that we're advocating for on both sides of the aisle, but I think it's also important for us to have specific strategies to target particular political parties. And I I I believe this because of some experience I've had. Um before working in the kind of democracy space, I've been working in the housing space for a couple of years now. And I found that um we did not have very much success in the Yimi movement until we had a deliberate strategy to actually outreach to Democrats. And I'll give you an example. In the state legislature of Texas, we advocated for the same set of four bill four bills two legislative sessions in a row. The first legislative session, we got almost no Democratic support. The second legislative session, we got almost unanimous Democratic support. and actually Democrats were the leading sponsors of some of our bills. What was the difference? Well, we we started making an independent case to Democrats based on their values and the way they view politics to vote for this legislation. And I think that's particularly important. Whenever you look at the Democratic party right now, Democrats are extremely concerned about our institutions and our democracy. A lot of democratic media brands, of which I'm associated, their whole brand is being pro-democracy. And they look at what's happening right now and they say, "What can we do to make sure this never happens again? How can we make a politics that has a stronger democratic system that's less divided, that is less prone to authoritarianism?" And so I expect whenever Democrats come into power, the federal government again, and also Democrats when they come into power at the state and local levels, they're going to be thinking about what we can do to strengthen our institutions. We actually saw this under the first Biden under uh Biden's presidency. One of the first pieces of legislation that they supported was the For the People Act, HR1, which was about democratic reform. Now, of course, that didn't end up passing. And of course the priorities on that on that piece of legislation were not exactly the ones that we'd have. We think approval voting should be in there. But it points to the fact that there's a hunger amongst Democrats for solutions that I think we have the opportunity to offer. And so that's why I think it's incredibly important for us to be getting out opeds for getting for to get on podcasts and also to be posting on social media. Increasingly, Democratic staffers, Democratic political operatives, even politicians are terminally online. I get DMs from politicians every so often that are like, "What is this thing that you're talking about?" So, it is incredible how much you can do just by posting on the internet. Ultimately, the only enemy to us making progress, especially in Democratc controlled areas, is hearts and minds. And those are hearts and minds that we have the opportunity to change. And I don't think that we have to focus on tearing down RCB, thankfully enough, because most people still have no idea what that is. And even if they do know what it is, many many Democrats don't support rank choice voting because they've seen how burdensome it is. Of course, we have to make an argument in some cases uh to Democrats that are convinced of RCB. I've converted some people. I know I know we've all converted some people, but one of one of the best arguments that I found against rank choice voting with Democrats that are fans of the idea is to point out how how long it takes for rank choice voting elections to be tabulated, right? It's not a precinct summable system. So, you need to get every single rank choice voting ballot in in order to have your multi-round count. And that is extremely problematic because as we know whenever election results are different than the the first round or whenever election results take a long time to tabulate there's allegations of fraud. There's allegations that something suspicious is going on. And for a party that is very much concerned about authoritarianism about elections being overturned it would be very strange for Democrats to support a voting system that gives credibility and gives more uh air to those talking points. So, I found that's been very effective. But ultimately, we just need to get the message out. I think that we have the opportunity, if we really beat the drum about approval voting and get it in front of the right people to seriously change the agenda of the Democratic party to include approval voting as one of its basket of policies to fix our democracy. And um I'm working on it. If you have if you're interested in getting involved in that, make sure to send me a message. I'm happy to meet with any of y'all. Thank you so much. Thank you so much, Micah. I like uh the terminology basket of policies. Like we want to be in that basket. So, thank you. Um if you have questions for Micah, please drop them in the chat and we will get to them in our Q&A segment. Um so, I want to round out our lightning talks uh with our final speaker. I'd like for you to uh meet Matt. Um Matt is a former award-winning journalist and media relations expert dedicated to bridging divides that strengthen civic participation. Um he now works to future uh proof American democracy by advancing reforms that empower vot voters while safeguarding our republic against authoritarianism. Um Matt, over to you. >> Thank you, Nina. I really appreciate that. As Nina said, I am a former journalist and PR pro and I actually left my job with an agency a couple months ago because I felt like this was too important to to not work on. Um, so I want to tell you all a story. As a journalist, I once covered a three-way sheriff's race where the winner took office with just 37.7% of the vote. Think about that. More than six out of 10 voters wanted someone else. But because their choices were split among m multiple candidates, they got a sheriff most of them didn't want. Not long after that, we all watched something some eerily similar play out on the national stage. the single most unfavorably viewed candidate in modern presidential politics captured a major party's nomination. Not because most people wanted them, but because the establishment party members split their votes among several more favorably viewed candidates. It's not just bad luck. This is what happens when we're stuck with an outdated system that forces us to choose just one candidate in a given race, even when multiple candidates might reflect our values. Now, after learning about these flaws in plurality voting, I spent years wondering what the founding fathers would think of the system we use today. I know now that we don't have to wonder. The answer is right there in the Federalist Papers. In Federalist 10, James Madison warned about the danger of faction. Groups united not by the common good, but by narrow ambition, willing to override the rights and interests of everyone else. Madison believed that as our nation grew, more voices would emerge, keeping any single faction from taking over. But here's what Madison and his peers couldn't have known. What nobody knew until the mid 20th century when Maurice Duver first discovered this. Plurality voting inevitably leads to a two-party system. That diversity of thought that Madison counted on to protect us, it gets squeezed out of our elections entirely. So today we're staring down something Madison would recognize immediately. The real possibility of total authoritarian capture made possible by our flawed voting system. It's faction. Exactly what the Federalist Papers warned against. We've seen this playbook unfold around the world. Device of identity politics, voter suppression, rigging legislative districts through gend gerrymandering. The same tricks that leveraged the problems with plurality voting here at home made it possible for authoritarians to take and consolidate power abroad. Hungary, Turkey, Poland, along with recent near misses in Germany and France, they all serve as warnings for the threat our country now faces. Our country's prosperity, its stability, and the basic rights everyday Americans have taken for granted all hang in the balance. The best solutions address root causes. And the root cause of the peril our democracy faces is plurality voting. Think about it. How many times have you been forced to compromise your own principles because elections became about binary choices? How many times have you voted not for what you believed in, but against what you feared? Plurality voting forces millions of Americans into exactly that position. It's a would-be autocrat's best friend. But there's a way out. And we can see it in other countries that have beaten back wouldbe autocrats. In Poland, democracy prevailed when everyone opposed to authoritarianism set aside old divisions and put up a united front. They reframed their national debate. Instead of right versus left, they made the choice between democracy and authoritarianism. And that's what we need to do here. And approval voting, a system where you can support every candidate who reflects your values, not just the least bad option on offer. That's how we get there. That's what we need to do here. Uh for those whose party no longer represents them, it's a genuine way to be part of the solution, a patriotic movement for a more united, representative democracy for sidelined voters who don't see themselves in the current system. It means they can finally support candidates who actually reflect their values. So, to be clear, approval voting can't be implemented in time for the 2026 midterms across the country. I'm I I realize that. But what we can do is have it serve as our rallying cry. A call that can mobilize voters, build momentum, and force the congressional firewall we need to keep the guard rails of democracy in place while the threat is most acute. Our political views don't fit into one tidy box. They're complicated, nuanced. We care about economic opportunity and environmental protection. We believe in strong communities and individual liberty. We want security and justice. Our votes shouldn't have to fit into that same restrictive box either. Approval voting recognizes that complexity. It puts power back in the hands of voters. It makes every choice count. It makes broad appeal the winning strategy instead of just firing up your base. This is about more than just electrome mechanics. This is about what's possible in America. When we we refuse to accept that division and dysfunction are just things how just how things have to be. The choice is ours. We can accept the status quo and watch as authoritarian capture becomes more likely. Or we can do what Americans have always done when faced with an imperfect system. We can make it better. Plurality voting got us into this mess. But approval voting can get us out by changing what's possible in America by upgrading the way we choose. Time for half measures is over. The time for bold action is now. Let's change what's possible in America by upgrading the way we choose. Thanks. >> And thank you, Matt, so much for dropping the mic. Fantastic. Oh, thank you so much Matt and Micah and Michael and Felix and Pinnacle and Roban um the CES team. I want to pivot now um to any questions you you all might have for some of our speakers. Um uh Allison, I don't know if we can we have a few queued up in the chat. Um and you know, if you are comfortable, raise your hand and come off mic and and ask your question as well. just going to say um I we do recognize we're we're over time so this is you don't have to stay if if you have other commitments um but we do have a couple in the chat um a lot of them actually were answered kind of contemporaneously by um folks um and we had a couple for Rob specifically um but we are most of them actually were answered um in the chat uh so if anyone has any additional questions. Um, feel free to sort of just raise your hand, pop up, and you don't even if you don't feel like sharing your face, you don't have to. You just, um, put on your mic. >> Yeah. So, it looks like Clay had a question for Micah. Um, there's tons of talks in social media about how DIMS can be more electable. Um, how acutely do you feel an openness to fresh ideas on that? >> Yeah. So, I mean, I think obviously Democrats vary a lot. There's like a huge diversity of Democrats, but I think increasingly you're having kind of a new group of Democratic politicians come up and challenge uh incumbents or retiring Democrats and they tend to be a lot more open to these kind of ideas. And they also tend to be doing surprisingly well uh in a lot of areas. And so, I think these people are probably like the key targets to make true believers, right? Um, I think also there's too much emphasis that's put on getting Democratic politicians themselves to genuinely believe in policies and not enough effort put into getting influential people in the party, political operatives, staffers to change their minds. Because in reality, most of the time members are just voting with what they think their coalition wants. To point back to the example of Texas, the reason why all these Democrats went from voting against our housing bills to voting for our housing bills is not because they all had a sudden realization about how the housing crisis works. It's because they felt like voting for these housing bills was the democratic position that their coalition wanted. And we need to make approval voting the pro-democracy position that the Democratic base wants. We can convince the base, we convince the staffers, we convince the groups, and the politicians will come along. >> Amen. I have another question here. This might actually be a really good question for either Felix or Clay since you guys were here at our inception. Uh it says we know. Um this it's a it's a good question. Uh it's from David Wley. >> I just wasn't here at the inception. That's all. >> Well, we Okay, then Clay, um we have this question here. um first exposure to us wondering about how the center got started and the decision to focus exclusively on approval voting. Is there an umbrella organization or movement that focuses on supporting local orgs working for any of the several reforms that are better than the status quo? >> Yeah, I can give a concise summary of all this here. So uh the center for election science was born out of initially some of the work of a princeton map PhD named Warren Smith who still runs rangevoting.org and advocated for primarily for score voting or as he called it range voting you know sca scoring the candidates on like a zero to five scale or what have you. Um but the work that he did in sort of analyzing this from a sort of different perspective with like computer simulations and and related reforms like how to fix gerrymandering and things like this with algorithms that got a lot of us inspired who come primarily from these engineering or math backgrounds like I'm a software engineer and so for years we had this sort of online community and mathematicians and engineers and and some other people too kind of got together and debated all the different pros and cons of these different systems but at a certain point we sort of said you know around like 2009 2010 we really if we're going to have a political effect need to sort of organize, create a nonprofit, be uh incorporated as a 501c3 and so forth. So that's where we kind of got the idea for the center for election science. And early on the the idea was we want to be an organization that approaches these tough issues, the voting method, jerrymandering and so forth uh with sort of a a game theory lens and that kind of coincided with like the publication of gaming the vote by William Poundstone which sort of covers this issue. And so selling on a a specific thing like what do we want to actually do was not as specific as approval voting but a big emphasis was on that score voting or variance of that kind of component and I think after a lot of debate about the pros and cons eventually we sort of settled on approval voting as the form of score voting that was the most practical and politically viable because you don't have to change the voting method. It gives you 95% of the benefit of full-on score voting with like onetenth the cost or complexity. Um, and so that's that's kind of where we landed with that. So it wasn't to say this is what we're focused on solely, but to say that this is the one practical flagship reform that can sort of I spearhead the movement and of course there are these other things we can talk about um once we kind of win that battle. I think so. Oh, and as to the other organizations, I think like you know, look, you might look into the uh equal vote coalition. some of the people behind like sort of the star voting movement have tried to create somewhat of an umbrella or a network of peers who sort of advocate for different ways of doing things that are not just rank choice voting >> and I just want to address um Michael's question. So yes, in the Maryland legislature um are the question is how do we appeal to Republicans as well? That's actually not our problem. Um, in terms of politically, we find that it is more difficult to appeal to Democrats who already are enamored of RCV. Um, and they don't know that we exist. Uh, they think that there's only sort of like a unilateral reform. So, yes, in the Maryland legislature, our uh sponsor is Republican Mike McCay in Utah. Um the pilot programs um are being proposed uh by Republican counties and um Republican le cities. We have uh Senator Thatcher, for example, who by the way, this work in Utah is being led by um a a man named Nate, who I think a lot of you already know. And this is not it's completely bipartisan, but the the people who are most interested in actually uh advancing an approval pilot are Republican senators. So really our issue in terms of sort of like the the political will to introduce and support bills is not we do not find that it is difficult to appeal to a lot of the sort of like more common sense middle ground Republicans. we have a lot of their support already. >> And I think for the new candidates, the new candidates we've chatted with in Ohio and Pennsylvania and Connecticut and beyond, they haven't been baptized to just a single reform. So, they're more open to to learn about all of the reforms and um and and why they should move move forward with kind of talking about it and advocating for approval voting. Um and recently we've also been tapped to help educate communities that have uh rank choice voting implemented. Um we we pride ourselves on the fact that we are um educators first and allowing um communities to know about everything all options and how to be most successful um and in serving as a resource in that capacity. And yes, Nate is absolutely a rock star. Any other questions or comments? We do know that we are over time party members. Yes, we are talking about that. Um Jean, we are um we're signed. Yes. Uh if you have any other sort of like last remarks in the chat, we recognize that we are over. We thank you all so much for joining us. Um we think this was a really good conversation. We love that there's even some debate in the chat. Um that really it's a good sign of a nice healthy democratic movement. Um and let's see any other last questions. I we can also connect if if anyone wants to connect with us more specifically. Um we have a partnerships page. Let me just drop this all again because we have that discord that we chatted about. Um we have a partnerships page that is a dedicated page for for example if you have an organization uh if you all have um even just an idea that you believe could be an academic uh research project etc. We're pretty we're pretty broad in scope in terms of how we wish to implement approval voting or even other voting methods or voting reforms that really can work in tandem to create a more equitable democracy. We have that form as well. Um and we also have a list serve so you can keep up to date with some of our um events. Like we said we have that proportional rep uh event coming up with Felix and Clay who you just heard from. Um, I dropped that in the chat earlier, but I can drop it again. We're going to have a how to write an op-ed training, which yeah, it's going to have uh how you write for an audience about approval voting, but more broadly, really larger concerns like where do I place this? Do I think about reposting this? Do do should I consider a payw wall? These kinds of more broad concerns. We're going to have those as well as it being tailored to approval voting. We're going to continue that education series throughout the fall into the winter. Um, and we will continue our advocacy efforts as well in Maryland. Uh, uh, really trying to re our partnership in Utah to ensure we get that across the finish line as well. And we have a lot of shovel ready projects. Um, a lot of research that we want to do. And so we thank you all for being here and being a part of this mission. Now's a critical time as we know. Um, and if you have any questions or would like to talk to any of us more specifically, I'm going to drop my email in the chat as well. You can just email us. Um, we're pretty accessible uh and responsive and are very willing to chat further. So, thank you all for joining us. We really appreciate your time.