Churchill’s High Functioning Alcoholism - Fin Taylor & Horatio Gould

Duration: 10:34 2222 transcript words EN summary

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The podcast features a discussion between Fin Taylor and Horatio Gould regarding Winston Churchill's high-functioning alcoholism, his charisma, and how he might fare in modern political landscapes. The speakers note that while cultural norms around drinking have shifted significantly since the mid-20th century, making such behavior less acceptable today, Churchill possessed an extraordinary level of productivity despite consuming vast quantities of alcohol daily. They compare him to a "sober" Donald Trump, suggesting that both men share gregarious traits and booming speech styles but differ in their relationship with substance abuse. The conversation highlights how Churchill's specific accent and dress sense contributed to his charm, masking the outrageousness of his habits by contemporary standards, though at the time these behaviors were perhaps more normalized within British society. A significant portion of the dialogue addresses the nature of political charisma versus statesmanship, particularly in contrast to figures like Trump, Farage, and Vance who dominate the current era. The hosts argue that true statesmanship is becoming an old-fashioned concept because modern politics relies heavily on public trust, which has eroded over time; consequently, politicians are now elected for their ability to be gregarious rather than traditional leadership qualities. This shift suggests a disconnect between political success and national well-being in the current climate, where charisma often supersedes competence or integrity due to a lack of foundational trust among the electorate. The conversation also delves into Churchill's mental health, specifically his lifelong struggle with severe depression known as "the black dog." The speakers debate whether it is possible for someone to maintain such high productivity while being chronically hungover and depressed, suggesting that Churchill may not have even recognized or understood clinical depression due to the cultural context of his time. They describe him simply as a grumpy British man whose mood swings were interpreted through the lens of alcohol consumption rather than mental illness, noting that he kept whiskey on his nightstand and consumed it upon waking, often requiring custom-sized bottles because standard sizes did not suit his massive intake. Furthermore, the discussion touches upon World War II's unique place in history as a "season finale" event characterized by clear distinctions between good and evil, which heavily influenced modern culture through media like *Star Wars* and action films featuring iconic dictators with distinctive mustaches. The hosts observe that Hitler invented the modern concept of absolute evil for many people, an idea solidified only after footage from concentration camps was released to the public. This historical context has shaped pop culture aesthetics where villains are often defined by specific visual markers like facial hair, leading to a fascination with figures who embody these archetypes in entertainment and online spaces today. Finally, the speakers express concern over the rise of pro-Hitler content on social media platforms following Elon Musk's acquisition of Twitter (now X), describing it as genuinely terrifying rather than merely ironic or edgy. They note that algorithms have created echo chambers where niche communities regarding fringe topics like Nazi ideology are growing larger and more cohesive, making previously marginal ideas mainstream within specific digital circles. The hosts recount an anecdote about Hitler receiving copies of Charlie Chaplin's *The Great Dictator*, a film parodying him during the war, which reportedly heartbroken him; they use this to illustrate how modern attempts to rehabilitate or reinterpret historical figures like Hitler are becoming increasingly disturbing as societal norms fragment and echo chambers expand.

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Uh but anyway, Churchill day drinking, booming speeches. How do you reckon he'd get on modern world? Can you get away with that? I guess it's kind of like um the culture shifted certainly. >> But then we have there has been a dir of political charisma and I think that's not politicians fault. I think it's as as trust has gone. >> Not trust me trust has gone [laughter] >> as trust love. >> Charisma's gone. Trust is gone. >> Charisma left when trusted. Yeah. No. Um, we got to stop electing people because they're fit. >> Yeah. >> But the, uh, yeah, the charismatic politicians, they have, we haven't really, I guess, I guess for is probably the last successful >> to be statesmanlike is not to be sort of gregarious in that way. >> States statesmanship is is old-fashioned if we're living in the era of Trump and Farage and Vance and >> but is there a link between the success of the country and the success of the politicians? Because if you look at the politicians during the Victorian age when Britain was the predominant power in the world, they they did seem more charismatic but just by the nature of what they were dealing with, right? Do you feel like >> you didn't have to deal with the public in the way? >> I guess so. Yeah. I guess Trump is kind of like a sober Churchill at least in that he's very gregarious, the booming speeches. He just doesn't do the drinking bit. >> Yeah. Yeah. And maybe it's just Churchill's accent and and like dress sense that lends a sense of charm to the outrageousness. >> Yeah. Was it outrageous? >> Today standards, I guess. But then at the time, maybe he wasn't. >> Yeah. What's more impressive, I think, is the >> It is extraordinary that level of I don't know anyone who has that level of productivity drinking that much. >> Yeah. I just >> It's quite I don't know how cultural that is. I think people drink less now. People are much more health consscious now. But singers were so normalized to drink and smoke that much. >> The more >> if I started drinking and smoking, I wouldn't get anything. >> The more interesting question is, how would Brian Johnson get on in the war cabinet? >> Yeah. >> What the [ __ ] is this nons? >> Yeah. >> Have a beer, would you, mate? >> Yeah. >> You want to live forever? It's the 40s. >> Go to bed at 10 p.m. >> Yeah. Come on. [ __ ] wake up. He also did deal with depression his whole life, though. Really aggressive depression. >> Yeah. Let's get serious. Let's get serious. Chris Churchill. >> Churchill. Josh was depressed. >> I thought he was. Was he not? Was he not? Did he not the black dog thing that was following him around? Is that not his whole thing? >> I mean, you look at what he was drinking. >> Is it possible to be not depressed being that hung over all the time? >> Yeah. Cuz church would be depressed. It's one he wouldn't even know what depression is. >> I don't think depression existed until like >> he was just a British bloke which is like sometimes he was in a grump and he didn't know what that was. >> So I don't know. >> He drinking we had whiskey on the nightstand. You're drinking whiskey when you wake up. He had a he he made is it Paul Roger the champagne and he had a customsized bottle made because he said a half bottle was not sufficient and a full bottle was too much to have with he he's sort of a twothird >> what I drink in a day. [laughter] >> That could have been it. >> Yeah. >> It's weird like World War II stuff is kind of ASMR for white guys in their 30s. >> Yes. for us. Yeah. >> Yeah. And that is >> I imagine that there's just an infinite amount of stuff that you can keep going back over with regards to that. >> Well, we're trying to stretch out on our podcast cuz it is it is the it's real just nitroglycerin for the listeners. They love it. >> Yeah. >> Um cuz it is it's probably it's the most exciting thing that's that's >> Well, it's like all of history, right, was leading to the night bomb and everything's been going out. It's like an hourglass. I see. It's like history is like a pyramid >> leading towards the big atomic explosion. So that's like and then everything's been a fallout since then, right? That's how so I think World War II is just if you like history, it's it's the big it's the season finale, right? >> It's a perfect amount of long enough ago that it's interesting to research, >> but close enough to us that there was sufficient information captured about it to be able to >> Yeah. >> Yeah. But also the kind of the the biblical nature of the light and dark, good and evil that doesn't really happen. and the [ __ ] aesthetics and so much of culture like Star Wars uh is is built off that similar like evil dark side with the great outfits. They look great >> and this kind of iconic baddie and then the the rebel I know it's based on Vietnam Star Wars but you know the the um the rebels and stuff that that that that doesn't really happen in conflicts since I guess >> you're saying stoally World War II was the sort of pinnacle. Yeah. And also when when you're looking at >> Hitler in the 30s, people didn't have a Hitler to compare him to. No. >> So the idea of evil is >> Hitler. >> Hitler invented that really. >> And also it didn't really come in until the videos from the camps came out. >> The kind of idea of this like >> everyone comparing everything to Hitler, there being this idea of true evil >> and stuff like that that just didn't really exist in the same way. Obviously there was like religious things whereas like heretics and that sort but our modern sense of evil is all comes from >> and and the bad guy you know like James Bond all the outfits that did it blowfell as a dictator kind of you know that whole culturally we're so born out of World War II. >> Yeah >> like action films. >> But then have you seen I don't know what your um algorithm's like. The amount of pro Hitler stuff is getting crazy. >> Pro Hitler stuff. I haven't seen any of that. >> What's on your algorithm Chris? like just dog videos and it's it's very fluffy. Mine I don't tend to get much of that like boobs >> boobs. >> Boobs. Uh no, not really. >> What is going I'm tits and Hitler. It's crazy. It's just Mine's just [laughter] not even Hitler. It's just it. >> So what do you mean pro- Hitler? >> Oh, it's crazy that there's like a whole community of stuff. >> Also the Pakistani guy with the mustache who does pranks in a in a I love that guy. I don't know what his name is. Uh it's like what's shocking is like uh there's like Hitler's speech has been translated into English and it's not only like memes that are like I guess kind of quite like nihilistic like being pro- Hitler cuz it's edgy whatever. It's the comments that there's a whole >> Is it ironic or not? >> No, it's it's broken past irony. It's genuinely pretty terrifying. So it' be like we owe Germany apology. That would be a lot of the comments. >> Is it just anti-semitism repackaged as pro- Hitlerism? It's I um I got a friend who sends me all of these because it's just >> Well, that's where the algorithms probably considered it might just be him on Twitter. >> It's not me. I should just >> have a friend. >> Yeah. Some some You sent me some. But on on Twitter now that Elon's taken the handbrake off, it's just gone crazy. The Nazi stuff. >> Uh I got sent uh like a three-hour documentary with like a quite a proper voice over well produced. It's like a pro Hitler one. It opens with a misunderstood artist, [laughter] a man who changed the world. So like there is definitely I think when you're told someone's evil and that's like the most defined uh kind of like truth. >> Yes. >> The idea that you've been lied to >> is thrilling for a lot of people. >> Very seductive. >> Very seductive for sure. But it is it is definitely crazy what's going online in the in the Hitler space at the moment. >> The Hitsphere. Are we in the Hosphere? >> We're in the Hosphere. orbiting the Hitler >> with the sun, I think. >> Yeah. >> Uh that I would not have guessed. >> Yeah. >> That >> there's there's videos of like Hitler playing with his dog trying to show his light aside. >> They are I mean they're great videos. I really [laughter] like >> happy there's the happy Hitler. You talking about the photo shoot he did >> in the is it in the 20s? There's a photo shoot or maybe it's the early 30s >> when he's trying to work out his act. >> But but no, it is like a comedian. >> No. Does he do early bits? Is there any of his early material the work in progress shows of Hitler? There's very rare these very rare photos basically where Hitler's trying to work out his like um his stickick, [clears throat] you know, because that doesn't just come straight out. When does that Chaplain >> he's the biggest Chaplain fan in the world, >> right? >> And uh it's hard to get it Hitler, but uh he got every Chaplain film sent to him. Uh, and then in 1941, a great film, The Great Dictator, Amazing Chaplain film, uh, which is a parody of Hitler during the war, made in the middle of World War II. He gets everything sent to it. And this got sent to him and it made fun of him and he was heartbroken. It was like because of your hero, your biggest hero, the guy whose [ __ ] facial hair. Wouldn't it have been a real middle finger if he just shaved it off? >> Chaplain. >> No, if Yeah. Oh, actually, that would have been like >> Yeah. Hitler doing the middle finger. I feel he's done a lot worse. I don't think >> I think the Holocaust was middle. >> Yeah, cuz [laughter] that that's worse than that. >> Was that aimed at Chaplain? The Holocaust. >> No, I guess not. I guess not. >> [ __ ] you, Charlie. [laughter] >> Teach you false. >> Yeah. >> No, I don't think I don't think we can say that. Hot take. >> No. >> Chaplain calls the Holocaust. [laughter] >> It's the thumbnail title of this. >> Is that what you want now? >> Yeah, that that might work. Um, yeah. I don't know. the the trying to repurpose or trying to reinvent Hitler's position and what he stood for seems like >> well it's it's fringe now but all these things that were fringed 5 years ago are coming into the mainstream so I wouldn't be >> it's more that niches are getting bigger so niches are big now because of because of the fragmentation >> um >> because the echo chambers actually start to grow >> it's more that if if the market digitally is everyone then a niche of that market at the center is a massive amount of people >> it's enough to hold a community together. >> Exactly. Totally. >> Wow. >> Before we continue, if you haven't been feeling as sharp or energized as you'd like, getting your blood work done is the best place to start. Which is why I partnered with Function because they run lab tests twice a year that monitor over 100 biomarkers. 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