Church & Ministry Administration | Lecture 6 : BC310-CMA-20260826

start. Okay. All right. The recording is on. Good morning everyone. Welcome and thank you for joining the class. Welcome everyone who have joined us online. Could somebody please pray and then we will get our class started. >> Father God we thank you, praise you, worship you for this time. Lord as we are here with pastor Ashish to learn. Father we pray you incline our hearts and our minds so that Lord we can hear your word hear the knowledge we are going to hear from him. Let him be your mouthpiece and we may follow your voice follow your advice father and Lord we may become wiser than the enemies father God. Lord, those who receive your word, they are wiser than the enemies. We thank you, praise you, worship you. In the mighty name of Jesus, we pray. Amen. >> Amen. Amen. All right. Um, yesterday we talked about the legal structure, how to form a legal entity, some details on that. Any questions from that class, from yesterday's any before we get into the next class, next lesson? Any questions on forming legal entity? How to do it? Selecting the right people, having the uh the articles or the bylaws. All okay. All right. Let's go into the next lesson. I've uploaded the PDF on um uh the classroom. I will share it now. So our next lesson, lesson number four is on organization structure. Right? That means basically we are saying how do we define these functions or roles or responsibilities of an organization? How do we uh set up the structure uh the process uh the the flow of information flow of responsibility all that you know so it has to be organized basically putting the right people in the right place to do the work right so we want to talk about that just share some practical things um and uh and you know maybe we'll think about something I'll share exact you know things that we are doing here at APC some things we're learning etc so organization structure how do we structure the organization so behind the spiritual ministry there is an organization how do we structure that now there are different types of organizational structure so I'm not saying you know uh here is a structure you have to use it and this is the only thing that works. No. Uh this basically you have to think like this. You have to organize and create a structure that can best support the ministry that you are doing. Right? So if it's a church, some other Christian organization, some other you you need a structure that best supports that kind of ministry. Right? So I'm not saying there's only one structure and everybody has to use it. No. Uh we will talk about different things. But when you set up a ministry or a local church or a Christian organization, you need to uh find a structure that best supports the kind of work you're going to do. Right? So when we say uh there are different types of organizational structures for example um there is functional structure that is based on the function you know okay here's um um people who will be handling finances so finance here's people who are doing uh marketing or or or media or IT or you know based on the function of the individual you're creating the role and then slowly you form a structure around it, right? Uh or you can have uh divisions and many divisions. So you'll have like we call departments or ministries. Uh so example if you have a um children's ministry, you have youth ministry, you have um um you know we call it uh school ministry, college ministry, counseling ministry. So it is based around the ministries or departments that you would like to have. You divide it like that. That's another way of creating a structure. Or you can uh you can have something that's very flat that means not too many uh leaders in the hierarchy you know. So if you look at even APC many ministries they'll just have a ministry coordinator and they'll have the team that does that ministry. We're not having too many layers. For example, our worship ministry. We have worship pastor and worship team, you know, we don't have like oh senior worship pastor, junior worship pastor, assistant worship pastor. We don't need that now, right? Uh we don't need that so big structure, right? Structure is very simple. Worship, worship team members, that's it. Within worship team members, of course, there are functional roles. the guitarists, the drummers, the keyboardists, the singers, the all those things those are functional but department wise worship pastor worship team simple structure right so goal is keep the structure simple don't make it complicated don't make it too big uh unnecessarily right if there is a need to have many levels of leadership it has to be justified that mean reason why you want so many maybe it's so like you know maybe if you have um a worship team with 500 people then maybe you need you know many leaders but for a small team of less than 100 people one pastor is enough right so try to keep it as flat as possible um that uh you can have and a matrix meaning there is you know columns vertical that means they inter interact they um intersect it's not like things are so isolated that worship team will never touch uh some other ministry. No there's a matrix meaning there's a connection for example between worship and youth because is the worship team that will serve the youth in their service. So it's a matrix there's a connection between almost every ministry worship team will also serve children's church worship team will also serve adults adult church. So there's a matrix there's intersection connection between different areas of ministry. Right? Now one example there are many examples in the Bible uh when you talk about organizational structure and design when you look at uh you know uh in in this in these verses from 1st Chronicles 23 chapter 25 and chapter 28 um we are looking at how David King David uh how he organized you know the uh and I may have made mention of this earlier in an earlier us how he organized the tabernacle and then later on he also planned for the temple that he Solomon's temple that Solomon built but David planned for it you see that in all of these things there's a lot of structure there is a lot of organization 1 Chronicles 23 uh verses 1-6 we just you can just look at it with me I'll just highlight this um so David he gathered 1st Chronicles 23 and verse 2 it says he gathered you know the leaders of Israel with the priests and the Levites the Levites these are people who are going to serve in the temple in the tabernacle at that time there were 38,000 uh 24 this is verse 4 24,000 they looked after the work of the house of the lord 6,000 were officers and judges. 4,000 were gatekeepers and 4,000 praised the Lord with musical instrument. Oh, imagine a choir with 4,000 people. 400 people said we can't manage. This is a choir with 4,000 people who praise the Lord with musical instruments. I mean this must have been huge organization effort to manage and order organize so many worship team members. 4,000 people were going to serve God with musical instruments right now. How did he actually put all of these people together? If you go to chapter 25, you know, we just just look at verses 1-8. So what he did was he uh chapter 25:es 1-8 David and notice the captains of the army they separated the sons of Asf u these are people who should prophesy with har stringed instruments symbols h and the number of these who are performing this service under the direction of Asf um you'll see the number here. Um who so he has all these worship leaders who prophesied according to the order of the king and u they prophesied with harp to give thanks to the lord. Verse four, he mentions all these leaders. And verse six, they were all under the direction of the father in the music of the house of the lord with symbols, stringed instruments, harps for service of the lord. And then you see there in verse 7. So the number of them with their brethren who were instructed in the songs of the lord, all who were skillful was 288. So it's like you can say 288 worship leaders h there were 4,000 musicians out of that 288 worship leaders they are the ones who are going to prophesy with the harp and all these instruments they that means you can imagine those days no song books no projector how they will sing okay it will start with these 288 people they are the main singers. They are the ones who are going to prophesy as the Lord gives them. But you have 4,000 people ready to join on musical instruments, all of that. Okay? But these are the worship leaders, main singers. Then he organized them. If you look into chapter 28, oh that that's the building of the temple. Um uh verse sorry in chapter 25 uh 26 itself. Okay. The they were rostered into where do I see this now? I need to find out the exact words. Yeah. Um um chapter 25 um verse 8 they cast laws for their duty the small as well as the great the teacher with the student and then you'll find first is for as second so every hour they had each of these people uh take responsibility. So till 24 that is from verse 9 to31 Chronicles 25 9-31 every hour slot was given to one of these worship a group of these worship leaders. Okay. So 1 hour 1 hour slot 24 slots given to these worship leaders. Right? So you're in charge every hour, once slot, you're in charge. They are backed up by all of these musicians, everyone. Okay. So how did he organize this whole worship ministry? 288 leaders, 4,000 musicians. He made 1 hour slots and different people will serve in different one one hour slot. He organized this You understanding? Of course, we don't have the names of everybody. You can't put everybody's names here. But he's given who is the leader for each other. Okay. First Lord came for Assaf. Uh for Assaf came from for Joseph. Second for Gdalia him and his brethren. The third were Zakur and his sons and his brethren. So it means like these are like you can say uh the worship leaders for that hour and they are backed up by all the other musicians. So this is like real organization 4,000 people plus 288 uh worship leaders who are going to prophesy. No song you can't say song here's a set list. What is set list you come Holy Spirit will lead us because they had no pre-written uh songs like today we have set list now okay they we sing these four songs you practice and come we can't do that I mean they didn't do that because they would prophesy they their singing was basically prophecy as holy spirit leads but they were very skilled these 288 people who are very skilled who could prophesy in wrong. So everybody has to just flow. Correct. Uh you can't uh you can't practice this income. But that is how David organized that 1 hour 1 hour you are responsible for this hour. You and your team you're responsible this hour next hour this hour and 24 hours all responsible everybody come worship according. So great uh example of organizing even the worship ministry of course all the other parts of his uh kingdom were organized you come to chapter 28 you see there you know how when d so now there's a change meaning now David is planning to build the temple so he's he's planning to build a physical temple till then they were using a tabernacle they were using a tent in chapter 28 he's planning build a temple. And there you see how um the holy sp um the holy spirit moving on David and David is planning the structure of the temple. So you see there verses 112 and 19 first kronings 28 it says David gave his Solomon his son Solomon the plan for the west its house his treasuries his chambers his inner chambers. Verse 12, the plans for all that he had by the spirit of the courts of the house of the Lord, the chambers and treasuries and all of that. And then uh verse 19, all this said David, the Lord made me understand in writing by his hand upon me all the works of these plans. So here the the the there's a change. They are planning to build a temple physical building but he just doesn't say okay guys just build anything no he's got a plan and today we will say okay architects will do the blueprint and all of this was given by the holy spirit holy spirit gavid you plan the building like this right he gives the plan then they collect the money or the offerings and then they build the building right so whether it was the worship in the tabernacle or the planning for the building, you're seeing David being very very organized. He's doing it in a very structured way. It wasn't just okay do anything, you know, there was planning, there was organization happening. So just one example here of uh organization structure and design. So let's go back here to the notes and let's begin to think about organizing our local church or Christian ministry. Why do we need to have a welldesigned organization? Why do we need to organize ourselves? There are a lot of reasons that we've listed here. You can think with me uh so that responsibilities can be clearly assigned. Who is responsible for what? So today if some couple comes and says pastor we're planning to get married I'll say please go talk to pastor Jay Kumar why because that is under his responsibility he will guide them of course I I can tell them I'll give them an overview I'll say see this is how it is done you have to go through the marriage course you have to fill up the form I'll give them but if you want to get get it started he's responsible he he'll walk with you through this right suppose somebody says pastor we want to be involved in youth ministry. She asked okay you go speak to the youth pastor I can tell you what it is but you really want to be involved that p that person is responsible I won't interfere because that person he has the freedom to lead it and guide it you know like that different parts of ministry different people are responsible and so you speak to that person so who we know clearly who is responsible for each and every ministry right And to avoid confusion, this will avoid confusion within rules, you know. Okay, imagine if all of us are putting our hands into everything. Who will make the decision? Everybody will be, you know, saying their own ideas and it will be a lot. So okay, certain person is responsible. There is no confusion. That person will lead, right? And this also will ensure proper coordination. We can coordinate properly you know between all the ministries. We can work together. We can communicate and share ideas, skills and resources. So um uh uh when we are organized we can work as a team and we can support each other. We can help each other in in in the ministry. We can communicate uh uh we can make decisions quickly. you know uh whoever's responsible they make the decision goes goes on right don't have to you know uh wonder who's going to make that decision uh we can be efficient we can be productive and also it's a healthy work environment right when we uh when we are very well organized people enjoy working it's it's you know whether it's the our full-time staff or volunteers or uh consult everybody enjoys working because everything is organized. We know how the work will get done, right? So there are all these benefits to being a welldesigned organization. So the question now is uh we want to kind of get into the details. How do we organize well? How do we you know what all the the details of it right? So organizational structure and design it must be intentional. It must be systematic. It must be planned. That means you must think about this, right? Don't just say ah it will happen by itself. Most if you leave it like that, it won't happen. You have to be intentional, right? Let's form a team. Let's appoint a team leader or a pastor or whatever. You know, let's let's organize it. Be intentional. And uh it should not be driven by internal politics. The the the the motivation how you organize should be for good reasons. Right? Sometimes people start uh organizing they start moving people around and creating structures driven by the wrong motivation you know. Oh, I'll do this because uh I want my son to be there. I want my daughter to be there. I want my uncle to be there. My whoever, you know, they start doing it for the wrong reasons. They start creating this role that role uh just for the and that is not good. You won't end up with a good organization if the if we're doing it for the wrong reasons, right? So um it must be intentional, it must be planned. Uh it must be as flat, simple, and clear. Don't make it complicated. And I I'll explain this and we'll get into some examples, but try to keep it as simple as possible. You want to organize, but be simple. Don't make it complicated. To get one paper signed, you have to go visit five different people. No, be simple. Should get done fast. Oh, very simple. You want to get this signed this person talk finish put stamp done. Keep it simple. Don't make it complicated with too many steps and uh too many people involved. No. Right. The third thing to keep in mind is continuously improve you know. So we keep on checking know is it doing well? If it's not doing well how can we improve it? How do we change so that things can function better? Right? Just because we created a certain structure now doesn't mean we have to stay with it. Uh we can change it. A goal is we should be efficient. We should work quickly, work well. So if something needs to be improved, improve it, change it. It's okay. And it must be easily scalable. Meaning it should you should be able to grow. You should be able to add more people and if the need in requires it, you should be able to make it bigger. It shouldn't become too restrictive. Right? And keep this in mind. The structure serves the body or the the body is the organism. The body, the church is the body. The structure is to serve the body. It is to serve the living breathing people of God. Right. Uh so if the structure is uh suffocating the body or it is preventing the people from functioning then structure is not good. Right? The structure serves the body. It serves the organis organism which is the body of treasure. People there are people working. Right? So the structure must allow people to live and breathe and move and function uh easily. It should not be suffocating the people. They can't do anything. Then people won't thrive, right? So we structure uh because we want people to function well and also we want to care for people. It is not just to you know like for design like just to show off or see how nice we have structure. If people are suffocating inside it's no use right if people are not being cared for it's no use right so goal of the structure is people should be able to function people should be able to be cared for that's the spiritual side right so uh example so pastor Nancy she's our principal Bible college suppose we Hey, if you want to buy a bulb for the Bible college, you have to fill up this piece of paper. You have to go to the office, get it signed by GU, then get it signed by someone else, then get it signed by pastor, then you can buy the bulb. She'll say, "Better not have the bulb only. It's too complicated to buy one bulb to fit in the thing. I have to do so much work. It will be so suffocating cuz as principal, she should not be worrying about buying a bulb. She should be thinking about, you know, the the students, the the lessons being given and making sure everything is good. To buy a bulb, if she has to do all of this, it is too much. So that is example where the structure is suffocating. It is not allowing the person to move fast uh to do work freely. It is it is being over organized. We don't need that. Yeah. Why? Very simple. You buy it, fix it, you'll get the money back from the accounts. Or just send one thing. Say I need 25 bulbs. Buy it and keep it. Any bulb finishes, it goes out, just replace it. you know something it should be very fast very simple right so if anything is over organized people are being uh it is too heavy too much of work then the structure is not good we have to change it right you structure for function and for care to care for the people right uh so uh example we talked about jetro where in that case the structure was he said you know appoint leaders of 100 groups of 100 appoint a leader for 50 the goal is we bring care to the last person to the individual care has to reach that so how do we uh bring care to the individual person so you have structure You take care of 100 people, you take care of 50 people. So one person, okay, you can take care of the 50 people. So every person in that group is cared for. If there is a need that is bigger than what you can handle, you bring it to Moses. Moses will make sure they care. So that structure which brings span of care to the individual. Okay. uh in acts chapter 6 we see an example where uh there is care for that service can be done in act six they had to distribute food right so they said okay you appoint seven people you seven people you you be in charge make sure food is given equally to all the people and the apostles they will focus on the ministry of the word and prayer so there is structure here you've given responsibility you you serve the food, we will pray and we will bring the ministry of the word. Right? So uh there is um clear you know division of uh functions. So page 12 uh design when you when you when you create an or chart when you say or organizational chart we will see this it's basically defining all the different functions that are there in the organization. It should be clear, you know, design it for clarity. Uh, design it for care. That means we in the end we we are serving people. So, we got to be able to serve people, care for people. Uh, design it for sustainability. That means it should it should be something that will stay through time. It can sustain under all kinds of situations. It should keep us together. It should be unity. This should be scalable. It should be able to grow uh handle more larger numbers of people. Right? And if the or the the organizational chart should be so simple, we should be able to explain it to somebody in five minutes. They should see it, they understand. Oh, I understand how this ministry is organized. You know, if it is too pro takes too too much of explaining to do, it's over organized. It's you're like unnecessarily making it complicated, right? So, what what are some tests um of a good organizational design? Is it aligned to the people and community we are serving? Like is it serving the people well? Right? So that's a very important thing because ultimately we are here to serve the people. Number two, uh does it enable people who are in the organization to add value and contribute meaningfully? That means people are working but they should have the freedom to bring their ideas, come up with some new things. So for example media team okay we have media people uh we just let we give them freedom to come up with some new things you know so even I don't know what I'll be sitting and waiting on Sunday morning oh what's the announcement because I don't know what they did right sometimes there's some really nice very creative uh uh announcement that they come up with right they they're only thinking about it I'm not thinking I'm looking waiting to see what they've come up But it's their fre it's it's freedom for them um to come up with a creative way to announce that you know so recently we had the women's conference I was I I was pretty impressed when they came up with the idea of that boxing gloves I was pretty nice you know it was totally their idea I don't you know the team whoever they must have discussed it come up with an idea so they have the freedom to you know um but the main thing is okay They're announcing a women's conference. That's all. That's the thing. How you come up with that video announce it's up to you. You be creative. Yeah. So they have the freedom to do that. So like that I'm just using as an example. But like that different teams they can be creative. Yeah. They have the freedom to make their decisions. Of course don't go off in a tangent. Suppose they actually show two people hitting each other. I say, "Hey, that's not allowed." You know, we don't want to promote violence through our other prioritize. No, no, no. That's not allowed. Right? We don't want Yeah, you can be creative, but don't go off in a wrong direction doing something right. That's wrong. Right? So, uh there is creativity, room for creatin. Number three, um the u the organization must be such that when people are put in certain places, uh we can leverage we can give them uh the opportunity to work on their strengths, right? Then they can use their strengths in the roles that they are given, right? uh and uh there is this this right match that there uh that they put in a place where they can use a strength. If they're put in a place where they don't have the skill, that means we're not doing something proper. You don't put them in that kind of a situation. Um number four, uh departments and units all the ministries department should function the way they're doing uh as they should. So that's a good organization interaction should be very simple and easy you know so um example if the youth ministry wants to have a youth camp they need money to run the do the youth camp simple our thing is hey you have to you prepare a budget email it to accounts and copy the pastor finished they'll review approve it. Done. So it's not like you know 25 steps very simple youth pastor and we have somebody who handles events. So youth pastor sits with the person who does the events. The person who does the events will take care of all the booking of the venue and all whatever is needed for the event. The youth pastor has just to take care of the spiritual say. He says this is I want it for these three days. Um this is the theme of the conference all that. I need a place for about you know 300 people. The person in charge of the events will do all the work. Do the budget. Uh youth pastor looks at it. Fine. Send it to for approval. Done. You know, so it's a very simple thing. Working across units and ministries. Keep it very simple. Interaction is very simple. And number six, uh kind of leads into that point. Keep it as flat as possible. You know, so I just given a simple example here. Suppose person A does the work and sends an email. Okay. And ultimately that email has to reach person D right. But if we are saying hey uh in order for this email to reach person D you person A you send it to person B. Person B does nothing with it. Just forwards it to person C. Person C does nothing with it. Just forwards to person D. Person B and person C are not adding any value to this thing. It's a waste of time. All these person B and person C is waste of their time. And also for person D to wait. Where is the email? Oh, it is stuck with person B. Where's the email? Oh, it's stuck with person C. They're on vacation. So it won't come to you until they come back. It's a waste, right? So simplify it. If person B and person C are not adding value to the whole thing, take them out of the out of that process. Just person A, you do your work, put your email, send it straight to person D. Done. Work is finished. We have saved time. We've saved their people's time. It can happen fast. Right? So we have to think like that right. Sometimes by mistake uh we may have designed a structure and a process that involves person B and C. It's okay. Correct yourself. Take it out. Nothing wrong you know. Okay. So we don't need that. Let's change it. Make it simple. That's a simp is an example where and you'll find these kinds of things very often in an organization where people are doing something but not adding any value. It's just a step in the process that adds no value. We should take it out. It's not not serving anybody any good, right? Um so u we designed to ensure checks and balances to minimize waste, you know. So example going back to the example of a youth camp. Uh okay youth pastor gets very excited. He says I want two LED screens. I want all these big things. He puts in the budget sends it. But somebody has to check otherwise simply money will be wasted. Right? So when it comes to me when it goes to the accountant we we'll be looking at it. So look at so you ask the question do you really need two big LEDs? Why do you need that? How many people are coming? 300. Ah, one LED enough. 300 people can see. So, take out one. You know, you might say, you know, 30,000 rupees you might save, you just take it out, you know. So, like that there has to be checks and balances and especially when it comes to money. Yeah, there's the accountant there. It's her responsibility to check everything, you know. Uh, and we have past records so we know for the same event what we did last year. So we can use that as a reference and I will also check uh anything big I don't check the small things big that's it but if there's any big expense I have a quick look you know hey if anything looks unnecessary I'll say please take it out why you want why do you want to waste right so while the ministry head will initiate the request there are checks and balances that makes we check everything so that money is not wasted or people's time is not wasted and so on. So in an organization the structure should have these checks and balances otherwise things could uh be wasted. Uh number eight is the organization flexible enough to implement new strategies and accommodate changes. So when we design our organizational structure we should be able to move very fast quick decisions and move fast you know um I'll share some stories maybe next class from point number eight where you know especially during covid time uh things are very difficult uh we had to close down services all of that we closed on Bible college send the students home how are we going to conduct our classes now uh and we had to quickly adapt to online learning, e-learning and we did it within uh a few weeks everything we moved online and students were studying with us like from wherever they were because during covid everything was closed right uh so I'll share that more details on that next class uh where for way we need to be able to move very fast so we need a structure that will allow us to uh respond quickly. Right? So, let me stop here. Keep the next few minutes for questions uh from in the with the class or uh online. What we're talking about is organizational structure. How do we structure the organization behind the ministry uh and what are some things to look at when we're designing the structure? And there's more to cover but any questions on what we have spoken today so far? Yes, please use the mic. Any mic u so others or students online can also listen to your question. pastor. So, when you're the uh leader of the organization and you have a God-given vision and you know his vision for each ministry that you're doing, how do you delegate well without micromanaging and trust that you know God is working in those people? Of course, he will, but also you you want things done a certain way, but you don't want to control either. >> How do you balance the two? Yeah, that's a it's a very good question and it's also a very challenging thing, right? So, first of all, you know, how do we delegate that area of ministry and then how do we make sure it's going on fine? It's going on the way you wanted it, right? So generally what happens here at ABC is uh in most cases I uh I start that area ministry in most cases uh in some cases for example I would not be able to do it like worship or performing arts or I can't go and dance on the stage those kind okay I don't get involved but in other areas right I would be involved like I would starting it. I'm setting the things in place and while I'm doing that I'm also uh training people like you know getting them involved so they can do it get the experience exposure then out of all the people who are being involved uh I'll see okay this is the person who can carry it forward right so in most cases it's like that I'm actually involved and then we put people together and then at the right time we hand it off you it's okay now you run with it. Uh a lot of things have been put in place and they probably have been involved in that ministry for some time so they know how it works so they can take it forward and improve on it and so on. So that's one that's generally how it happens. If it's something that I cannot do myself then it's total dependence on the person whom uh we bring in right that's I'll explain that a little bit but this would be the normal approach uh where I'm involved in it the person comes in takes up and takes it forward the way we continue to uh be involved is one is especially with all the pastors ministry leaders I meet with them oneonone regularly right So uh I would have conversation sometimes it'll be casual like just where we are just on a corridor just have a but it's a way of keeping in touch asking how things are going sometimes be a formal meeting I will schedule a time meet me in the office we'll sit and talk you know otherwise it'll be just a casual conversation but we are keeping in touch on how things are going they'll ask questions how do I do this how do I do that I share so there's this ongoing uh informal and formal uh discussion on those areas of ministry. Then we do have a formal system of review which happens every 6 months. That means now in many ministries areas of mercy we I ask for data reports monthly reports. That means the pastors will be sending me reports on what is going on in their areas of ministry with data with numbers you know um I'll just give example like uh Bible college okay how many students by language online e-learning etc uh is everything going fine then planning for the next semester all those things so these are all real data that we look at on other counseling how many counsel uh so we have a team of counselors how many people came in for counseling this month by month you know every month I get a report so I know if the numbers are going down that means like okay somebody's not doing their work you something's not going on right so that's another way so there are these informal conversations there are these formal meetings but there are also these reports that come in uh from weekly reports to uh monthly reports. For example, every week Monday, I'll get a an email on the attendance all locations. So I'm looking at it so I know that hey things are going if if something is dropping or something not going well I'll ask the question why what happened you know so I'm seeing a weekly report so these reports help you know keep in touch um so these are some ways by which we keep and then I also observe and I ask questions so if something is I observe something is not okay then we'll sit down and have a serious discussion you know and um yeah so so that's how we keep in touch on each area of ministry so if it's an ministry where I have no experience example would be worship or uh like uh this performing arts and all that so then I fully delegate I first is to get the right person in right so example let's say we want to do a production Christmas production okay Uh the person I will go to is Su like because he um has experience in in in in doing these musical productions. I'll go to him. I'll say su here's the idea. We want to do a production for Christmas. Uh we'd like to do it on this thing. Uh here's my thoughts, my ideas, but you come up with your ideas. So he's the main person. I can give some little idea that I have but he's better because he's done it much more than me. So I'll let him come. So but he'll come with the idea. We'll discuss uh he will work on the script. I will only review the script for theological correctness not for the actual thing you know just to make sure that we are not saying anything wrong but otherwise the script is his he come up with idea because he knows all these things. I don't know. I only check for that. Uh just make sure we're not saying anything wrong and then please take it forward. Okay. Please come up with a budget. So uh in in in areas where I have no experience, uh my only thing was to pick the right person, somebody who's got that experience and then interact with them uh in the decisions that need to be made. Beyond that fully, they will be fully in charge. I I don't get involved in other than just checking you know so before the production happens I might come and see the rehearsal okay it looks it looks so good if there's something bad like somebody's saying something wrong I say hey so you know just tone that down a bit or because you're thinking from the audience perspective right you're thinking from how does it impact you those kinds of things you can give feedback on the actual details he only will know right same thing with worship ship uh because I don't understand music I will only just oversee guide make sure people are okay those kinds of things right so yeah so that's how we start we delegate and uh oversee the ministries and so on yeah >> good >> yes >> so when you're just starting out you don't have the luxury of you know seeing many people in a team and then picking someone who's excellent. You kind of have to depend on maybe one person who you're training and then of course you have certain expectations over that person and then there's pressure. So how do you kind of manage that? Like is it patience that we just wait and continue or explore other options? >> Yeah. So I think the the the philosophy there is uh use what you have and within the constraints of what is available. So for example when we you know and if I go back in time and think about you know performing arts back in time uh our very first performing arts coordinator was Miriam Miriam Joshua uh and she was very good in dancing this um you call it um choreography and uh yeah those kinds of things she was very good in that so that was all we it. So, Miriam, get a few people, teach them how to dance. That's all. So, we didn't do any big uh production. No, that's all we had. That's all they they could do. They could do the the choreography, the dance. Okay. You get the people who are interested. You form the team and it'll last for 3 minutes, 5 minutes. That's all. So, it's a very short thing, but that's all we had, right? Uh that's all the team was. Okay, fine. Be happy, clap, celebrate God. So we start with that. Um uh we you know that's was that was all we had in the beginning. Uh one person who knew how to dance, he taught a few others. Uh had a small team, they' come they play a song and they will dance. That's it. So the productions all came later, you know. So idea is start with do with what you have go with that and then over time things will grow over time you can do bigger things you know so that's yeah okay u bell is gone uh thank you everyone we'll continue uh this uh and get into the details of organization structure and all that next week thank you >> thank you sir So thank you sir.