Church & Ministry Administration | Lecture 12 : BC310-CMA-20260922

Okay, recording is on. Good morning everyone. Welcome to the class. Who has the mic? Yes, please pray and we'll start. >> Heavenly Father, we thank you Jesus for this beautiful morning time. Lord, thank you father for giving us this class to learn your word and about the church administration. Lord open up our hearts Lord so that we can apply your words in into our hearts and that we will use for the future ministry oh God and through pastor you speak to us Lord I pray we submit this class all the students into hand in Jesus name Lord we pray amen so today we start a new chapter it is on church staff management Lesson number seven. I have uh shared the PDF and sharing that online now. [snorts] So this is a very important area in any church or ministry Christian ministry. How do you u oversee? How do you manage the people who are working in the organization for the organization the church or Christian ministry right it's very important um at APC we have three groups or three categories uh some are staff some are consultants and some are volunteers right staff means these are people who are full-time working for the church. H uh they are paid a salary. Uh and they also have other benefits as staff like they will have health insurance. Uh they will have um what is called as PF employee uh the provident fund that means we contribute for their retirement the savings. Um uh they have paid vacation leave every year. So these are benefits for people who are staff. Consultants are people who [clears throat] are paid hourly. That means uh they're not the same as staff. They can they're working for the church. They get paid but they're paid for the hours they work. Uh the flexibility is they can work from home or they can work from you know wherever they are but they don't have any of the other benefits. They only get paid for the hours of work and in most cases we tell them you have to work minimum 20 hours. So staff they have to work at least 40 hours full week 8 hours every day 40 hours every week. Okay. Um staff sorry consultants uh any number of hours but at least 20. So consultants will usually be people who you know maybe they can afford 10 hours of work 20 like some hours of work they can do uh for what we need. So we say okay that that's fine but they can also if they want they can work up to 40 hours if they want um but it's up to them. Okay. Volunteers are they just do free uh free pre you know of their services so they don't get paid but they also have to be overseen guided etc. Right? So we have these three categories of people um uh uh that are serving in the church and we need to oversee all of them. So everybody works together right? So staff, consultants, volunteers will all be working together, right? The responsibilities are different, right? Volunteers, they they just voluntarily giving their time and so on. So at APC, uh our staff, we have I think about I don't know the exact number but uh right now I think we have 35 full-time staff. 35 people who are full-time staff in Bangalore. Then around the country that is our outreach pastors. They are pastors of churches in different places. Many of them are also uh not many all of them are outreach pastors. Plus in some cases they may have an assistant like you know somebody else with them. So in some cases there will be the pastor plus two people uh or there'll be the pastor plus one person. All of them are also supported by our by ABC here. So 35 people here and outside I I'm thinking maybe uh 14 or 15 people I don't something like that I don't exact number. So all these people are supported by APC. So 35 plus uh 50 people h 50 people are being supported by APC. Then we have consultants. These are people like I said who are working hourly or they may work on the basis of like uh we have consultants in Bangalore doing different things. Uh they are paid hourly. So plus we have uh our translators like these people who translate our books into different languages. Um uh some we work some translation work happens through an organization a translating agency. So they take care of it all but in order because we want our work to go faster. We also work directly with translators. We send our books for translation. So they are also coming under consultants because they will do according to each book they get paid according to the work they do. Again I'm sorry I don't know the exact number but um I think there are at least another 35 consultants right um uh around that range you usually so we have 50 plus 35 means about 85 people who are being paid uh on a monthly basis by the church uh 35 of them are consultants who get paid for the work they do and then about 50 people are paid because they are like staff by the church. That's how we are. Then the volunteers again here we may have between 350 to 400 volunteers. That means they're voluntarily serving. No, some of us like our worship team people in I think there are 60 people in the worship team all of them are serving volunteer voluntarily except for the worship pastor he's full-time pastor but the others are volunteers so they will get rostered in different places they will go they will give some time every week serving as volunteers like that so many people you know like a welcome team ushering team book table team setup team a lot of people. Then there are those who go for catalyst, those who go um for [clears throat] campus surveys, lots of youth, many people, life group leaders, all these people are serving voluntarily. They're not paid by the church, but for them they're serving the Lord. They're giving uh uh some of their time, some of their skills to serve the Lord. Okay? So that's how it is organized. But we have to take care of them, right? Uh we have to keep everybody together and that's what we want to talk about in this [clears throat] lesson. How do we uh you know how do you work as an organization? Uh most of what we're talking about in this lesson has to do with the staff, right? But then later on we'll talk about how can staff and volunteers work well with each other because sometimes volunteer will blame the staff. You didn't do your job. Volunteer staff will blame the volunteer. Hey, you didn't come whatever. No, but we don't want to have that. We want volunteers and staff just to work together as a team. How do you create that culture? [snorts] And for the most part I think at APC everybody's working well together. We've had problems you know over the years different times there will be different challenges and we have to address it but for most part you know people are able to work together whether they are staff or volunteers they all work together and so on. So how as an organization how do we work you know how do we manage the people? The first important thing is the hiring process, right? So when we want to have a person join [clears throat] us either as a staff or a consultant, they go through a hiring process, right? So we don't say, "Oh, come you're my uncle, you're my cousin, you're my sister, you come and work." We don't do that. Nobody gets any special treatment. Everybody if you want to work for the church you have to go through the same process right so if you see in sometimes and I'm not making fun but I'm just pointing this out sometimes in some churches or organizations they put people in places because he's uncle he's auntie she's auntie like that because they're family they put them all but that is not a good thing right u if you if you want to have a proper organization you have a process Everybody follows the same process, right? So we have a hiring process. So first thing is we need to identify the need that is in the organization. What is what is the role that you're trying to fill? H example pastor. Okay. What pastor? Worship pastor, youth pastor, teen pastor, children's church pastor or uh oh we need somebody for catalyst or somebody for this. You have to define the role right you can't just say come join then what am I supposed to do anything you want no you have to have a role what is this person going to do so that is very important that's where we start right we identify that there is a need to find a person to do this kind of work so once we identify a role we can also describe the skills that are needed by that person for that role example worship pastor then obviously they need to know something about music. They need to know something about singing and songs all that. We can't put somebody who doesn't have music you be worship pastor and be full trouble for everybody [laughter] right so obviously for that role uh we had to that person has to have certain skills for that role right so once you have you identify the role then you describe the skills and what we do is we write it down so we have a role description so and and like I I pointed this out earlier on our church website [snorts] apcw.org/guidelines /g guidelines we describe all the different roles that we want to if you write it down it's very clear then we announce it like it's put on our website so again we're making it open to people whoever wants apply fine right but of course there are criteria you know that means uh for this role this person must have these skills h uh and then sometimes some experience may be needed you know uh uh and so on, right? But as a preference, we always like to bring take on people who are part of our community. H why is that? Be because the church is not some organization you just come and go. No, the church is really uh sorry this this this this organization we're talking about the it's actually an expression of the community. I mean it's people in the community who are saying I want to give my full-time to work and serve right so we give preference to all to people who are part of the APC community or from our Bible college that is our preference we get rums from all over India every day rums will be coming uh from people all over India they'll apply for different things are always coming of course we will screen it we'll look at >> [snorts] >> uh and we so but the preference is we want somebody part of the community or who at least will come and become part of the community because this is not just a job it's a journey we are making together right we are making this journey we we have a vision as a community and we are going toward that vision so it's not just a job you come work for two years and then you find another job and go it's not like how in a corporate you know they're working for a salary then they keep finding a job and keep moving it's not that this is a journey right so uh it most almost all the people who are working with us have are part of the community or they become part of the community right uh there will be some exceptions where some roles like for example the translators who are translating our books that's not needed you can be wherever you want they are in different parts of the country they translate and give to us it's Okay, that's not an issue. So there are some roles um that it's not necessary to be part of the community. It's okay if you're doing you wherever you are you do your translation. Um but here in the office here in Bangalore uh and the team here uh the preference is given to those who are part of the community right uh so that's something uh we look at then when people send us the resume uh the resume is screened like so we have HR that's uh Phoebe uh she will look at the resume she'll screen it to see if so that's the first step so we have an interview process bottom of page 27. Um, she will review the resume. Does the re resume indicate that this person has the skills that we are looking for? Right? Do they match? Right? Or at least uh in some cases we take them, we train them and so on. So we look at do they have the skills? Do they interest? uh she will uh if that that is there uh it identifies the candidate and then there's a phone screening so we'll talk on the phone or something they're here in person they'll talk they screen like okay uh if it is a English speaking role can they speak English their written skills communication all that the screen um then in many cases there is a practical test right okay Yeah, especially if it's media, IT, something in that area or like for catalyst, you know, Selena will say you go and do a class, I'll watch you like that, you know, or she will tell them to do a class online. Uh or tell them to write or if it's for children's search, can you write the curriculum? So depending on the role, there is an assessment that is done, right? So the resume is there, resume screen, uh there is an assessment. So there'll be some sort of a practice just to evaluate their skills uh in relation to the role. Okay. [snorts] uh then in some cases there'll be in-depth interview that means um [snorts] uh especially for higher roles the I will do the interview uh where it'll be like two three hours just um in depth trying to assess their skills you know because some roles are very very important like if you say accountant or um head of operation these kind of so it'll be like fully grill them ask them really difficult questions you know why you want to know right because you're going to hire them uh they have to do the job right you can't just say oh he's my friend so I take him we don't do that right so that's an in-depth interview especially for important roles um uh so so that's that this whole assessment interview uh in-depth interview happens um then uh we also have a group interview that means if it's a pastor then the rest of the pastoral team will interview that person because we want to make sure everybody feels comfortable with this person, right? Or if they're joining a team um then if especially if they're going to be a senior role, the whole team will interview them. Do we want to see everybody's happy with this person, right? So there'll be that group interview and final round they'll meet me and then we will make a job offer. So everything is in right give them all right. So this thing we take seriously. Why? Because this is we when people join we want them to do work do good work and um if you hire somebody and they don't do well it's quite a difficult thing you know how what do you do right how can you either you help them or then you have to dismiss them all those problems are there if we hire them and they are not doing their job properly sometimes it happens we make mistakes uh But it's better to avoid that. So do a very detailed thorough interview. Be confident. Now we will never find a perfect person. There is no perfect person. Right? So there is nobody who's going to fit a role perfectly. But you have to have a certain cut off criteria like okay if they're 80% there it's enough. Right? You're not going to find a person 100% perfect to match as it a role but okay at least they're close enough. 80% they're there. We know there are about 20% gaps which um they maybe can learn uh maybe they can acquire the skills we fill the gap but if the gap is like if they're only 60% and there's 40% gap that mean they don't have all these other skills then maybe better not to hire because how will you fill the gap somebody else has to do the work right so we have to see you know can the at least 80% do the job okay that's good enough you So we'll never find a perfect person but uh we try to find see at least they come close to um what we are looking for right and then we always uh make the offer in writing and I remember once I was speaking to one pastor there was somewhere in North India I was ministering there the pastor came and said see pastor um we hired one lady in our church to work in the church admin. But sometimes she'll come at 10:00, sometimes she'll come at 11:00, [clears throat] then she'll go off at 3:00. Oh, I don't know what to do. Then I I said, "Okay, before you hired this person, did you give her a letter saying what time to come, how many hours she has to work, uh how many events she has to be in the office? Did you put it in writing? No. No. I just said join. [clears throat] See, then this is what will happen. If you simply said join the come and work, but you didn't say what time to come, how many hours to work, uh you didn't put all that in writing, they will also do whatever they want. No. So now there's a problem, right? So always better, right? So we we we have a very formal hiring process. We have our staff guidelines. We have a offer letter. We have the role description. We send them three documents. The offer letter which says this is your role. This is your salary. This is your starting date. Uh the staff guidelines. This is an HR document. All our um our policies in that document. And third, there's a role. This is a role that you we are hiring you for. So you read all the three documents, you're comfortable, then you sign. So that way there is no doubt what that person is going to be doing, what is expected, what is required from that person. Right? So that's why we we put everything in writing. You got it. So all these sample documents are there in APCW. Guidelines you can take it and use it. Now some other some things that we do. Any questions so far? Oh, you're not paying attention? Yes. Nobody's sleeping. Okay. All right. Uh I'll send some more things and then I will take questions. So when we are hiring people, what are the things we look for? Right. So this is on page 28 here. One is motivation. Why are they applying to work for ABC? Why do they want? Um so they have to fill up the form application form. Then they tell us why you applying. Some people say oh I'm looking for easy job. I want to just relax. I don't want stressful work in like how it is in the corporate. Then it's the wrong reason because when you come here here also you have to work. Some people think oh I can uh I I will work for church. It is very easy. No church you here also you have to work 40 hours. They are also you know we expect you to uh do you know produce results. It's not like just because you want something people think have idea oh so easy to work aram so they just relax and no it's not like that that's a wrong wrong understanding of church you know that here also we have to work hard right so if people think like that um that's that's uh the wrong reason to apply to work for church right uh other things we do is we check for their skills and calling Right? Do they really feel called and passionate for the work they're applying? Right? They shouldn't be coming here. Oh, my father told me to apply. [laughter] That's not the right reason to come and work for church. You should be wanting to work for church and in the ministry, right? Or oh, I was just sitting at home. I had nothing to do. So, I thought I'll do something. That's not the reason. There should be passion. I want to do something for God. Right? Um we also check their work history. What have they been doing before? Right? So for example, if somebody's changing their job every year, every year they're doing something different or once every two years they're changing job, then we will hesitate to hire that person because it's an indication that hey after two years they will also go. They'll be here for two years they'll go. there is there really by the time they learn and we invest in them uh it's time for them to go right so we look how they have been working in the past what has been their history if they're changing jobs very frequently then that's not a good sign uh another very common thing I do when they come and speak to me is uh I give them a blank sheet question what I do is I say see I'll give you a blank if you were given a blank sheet You can do anything you want in life. There is no limitation of money. No limitation. Blank sheet. You can do whatever. What will you do? Right? So you all think about it. What your answer will be, right? If you could do anything you wanted, no limitation, what you will choose to do, right? cuz that that that makes you think right what what would I really like to do with my life if there was no limitation right uh so that usually we tell us what this person really likes to do you know [snorts] uh and that's a question we usually ask like I said we also have practical assessments we give them some tests or uh related to their uh role Then uh we also ask questions that will indicate if they have some wrong character traits. You know for example I say we'll ask what was the most difficult situation you handled in your previous company and then say my most I had a very bad boss and they start complaining about the boss or I had a very bad colleague and they give you full bad details about the colleague then it's like hey okay you know no environment is perfect but you don't go and complain to somebody else about you know don't talk bad about your boss to somebody else, you know. Um, so we look for these character traits where maybe they are, you know, they they they they gossip, they speak bad about others or they not they don't get along with people because when they join the team, we have we all work as a team. We have to work with so many people. So if we don't have the skills of working with people, then that's a like a uh it's not a good, you know, indicator. >> [snorts] >> or some u um dangerous attitudes that they have. You know, they think like they know everything or they're not willing to receive input. Um these are all dangerous attitudes and we we avoid hiring such people. Um some red flags meaning warning signs. For example, if somebody comes late for the interview that means this job is not important. you know, so we give a time 3:00. Do you come here by 2:50? Sometimes I come late for class. I'm sorry, but that's I try not to, right? I try to be on time sometimes. Yeah, I I do get late. Uh, but for an interview, if you come late, at least for APC, unless there is there has been some rapture or something in between, there's no real reason. Don't even bother coming you know like because that's the first thing if this job is important you'll take it seriously you'll make sure I remember once I fixed an interview for some I forget the role this person was working for another Christian organization he had applied to APC we had said the interview 4:00 3:45 I get a call from him pa I'm just leaving I will be there I said don't Don't even bother to come. Don't bother to come. I won't do your interview. Because if 4:00 is your interview, is your responsibility whether you're in heaven or hell, doesn't matter where you are. [laughter] It is your responsibility to show up here before 4:00. That's it. If you cannot come here 4:00, there has to be a valid reason, right? uh and uh if you know you know like some serious reason some big accident happened or something other than other otherwise no excuse so don't bother to come you know so we take that very seriously right then when you come and like when a person comes to the office how does he treat he or she treat our staff now some people have come they speak very rashly to you know our uh the person who's sitting at the front desk they speak very harsh. Uh they then forget it. We will not hire them because they don't know how to be kind. They don't know how to treat people respectfully. We don't want such people. Right? So even that is important you know like when they come and how you speak to other people in the office that's important like as mentioned if they speak negatively about past employers or past experiences uh if they are very judgmental crit critical about other denominations. So we also don't want people who are criticizing other churches, other denominations. No, don't criticize. Of course, there are different churches, different denominations and uh we know we all don't agree on everything. But why criticize them? They're different. They have different opinions. Okay, leave it. But the moment in s during the interview, they start criticizing that church, that pastor like this, that is not needed in the interview. That is those are things we shouldn't be talking about. So but people do all those things. Um then simple question I ask sometimes you'd be surprised. I'll ask them question what do you know about APC? People are sitting in front and some of these people sometimes they have big experienced people they applying for big positions. They have not done their homework. They don't know anything about APC. That means they have not made the effort to prepare for the interview you know and I've had people who apply like for big like head of operations head of operations are very most like you're going to manage the whole organization ask a simple question what do you know about ABC the stumble that means it didn't take even 15 minutes to go through our church website because on our church website everything is there Right? If you take 50 minutes, you'll get to know, oh, this is the organization. These are the ministries, this is what they're doing, this is their statement of faith, everything is there. Right? So, they have not made an effort to prepare for the interview. They just want a job. Then immediately my mind's okay, we won't we won't hire a person like this. No, they're not taking this seriously. You know, they're just coming for a job. No. So, simple question. What do you know about APC? Many times people will be surprised they don't know anything just applied somebody said send your email they send money so they not done their homework you know um sometimes they appear they appear disinterested about the role so it's okay you know what do you know about this role that you applied for but you sent your resume for this role at least you we've made the effort to put the role description describe what you But they have not made the effort to read it and understand this is what is expected of you. So they are very um or if you if they are vague in their responses, they're just covering something up. They're not telling us clearly, you know, what they did, etc. So uh these are all things that we look for in the interview process. You know that we want to hire good people >> [snorts] >> uh people who are part of the community and who understand these things. let's take this seriously uh and so on and u also I'm saying and a family members must be interviewed so even if somebody's already working and uh their family member wants is applying we don't say oh you're so and so's husband or so and so's wife or uncle or whatever come come no no no everybody's treated as an individual as a candidate same interview process no preference given nothing right so actually family members apply we make it more difficult you have to really come prepared >> [laughter] >> because there has to be that seriously that you are really good, you want to work here then. So we don't just simply um do that. Yeah. So I'll just um uh so we also do background check. So we look at their social media. What have they posted on social media? If they put all things like you know all bad things sometimes happens, right? They applying for church but on their social media they're putting all kinds of bad things. Hey we we can't hire such a person. So we do background check look at their social media what they've been doing because uh what they put on social media. Yes it's personal but it reveals who they really are. Um as opposed to just the resume. resume looks very nice but what are they doing you know outside especially for church that becomes important because you can't be working for church and then putting picture with beer and [laughter] people say what is this this person's working for church but he's getting drunk here all those things it it impacts us right as a church so we have to look at those things um before we can uh make a job offer and finally of all these things okay we will make a job offer. Okay. So, let me just pause here and take any questions so far about just you know how we go about Oh, were you not able to see the PDF online? I'm sorry. Did I not share it? Yeah. You able to see? Okay. Fine. Thank you. Okay. Yeah. Let me pause here and take any questions. Um so far to what we have spoken so far on uh how we go about you know bringing people as staff or consultants. Any questions all online any question? Yes please ask. So if the person is joining as in staff or uh consultant pastor so is there any time period that you should compulsory work for a while then if you want you can leave like few people they join for uh few months then go for their needs maybe >> so we don't we don't do that uh you know so one is we don't want to control people's lives right so like some companies will have a bond that if we give you a job you have to work two years and so on. Uh we don't do that, right? We but we tell them up front and we ask them what are your future plan and so on so forth. So we check that before we make the offer, right? If they say I want to work only six months and leave. We may offer, we may not offer depending on what the role is. But we ask them, you know, what's your long-term plans etc. And uh as long as we have that discussion, it's fine. So we don't put it we don't make anybody sign a bond or anything. Um and uh you know it depends on the role some role it's fine if uh they only want to work one year and leave it's okay if that's if it's such a role example catalyst right because it's based on an academic year every year uh you know school year change so if somebody says hey I'll just work for one year that's fine right for a catalyst because summer holidays there are no classes like and then again only starts up only in June So uh uh in June a new team we can form a new team. So depends on the role. Uh to answer your question we do not put anything make and force anybody to stay. We make that decision before make the offer. You know if they say I can only stay for one year and it doesn't suit our requirement then we won't make the offer right because we'll say no we're looking for somebody who will work with us for at least three years. Right? because by the time we train them uh they'll for them to get ready uh it'll take some time right so we won't even give them that opportunity if it's okay for us that they are staying only one year then it's fine right now what we have realized is we can never control but anybody right somebody will join us maybe with the intent of staying but something happens in their life where they have to change that decision maybe uh they get married and then they have to move right so they were planning to stay here but now because of marriage they have to move to another place or they have to change it's okay we can't control it they also didn't know that was coming uh so it's okay you know we uh we we adjust to that uh but we prefer we will have the conversation before we make the offer we will ask you how long do you think you in work and depending on the role we'll tell them you know we like somebody to stay and work here 3 years 5 years or even long term we prefer longterm because uh then they really grow with the organization so on uh and then it's okay but again if somebody wants to leave in between it's fine we work through the transition so on >> please ask >> so uh the the the resume which you're getting it directly goes to HR or it comes to you pastor or or the HR should confirm first or >> you so all resumes go to the HR uh I also get a copy but I don't see it like I don't I I usually don't see it because it's the HR's responsibility so the person who sees it and screens it is Phoebe so she's the only one who will like really screen it look at it she'll see if it matters no not she will not respond to every resume because you cannot there's so many resumes are coming. She'll just screen them. She'll screen everyone only if it matches the role then she will get in touch with the person to screen do the screening only after the screening is done and she feels the person is satisfied then she will send it to somebody you know who who's who is responsible like if it's for member care it'll go to pastor Jay Kumar if it's for Cathol it'll go to pastor Selena if it is for whichever But like you know it'll go to them because they will do the interview. In some cases um if one of our pastors sees somebody that they want to engage um especially in pastoral roles then they will bring that up directly to me and say hey I think we should uh hire so and so or I will have a conversation. example um our youth pastor. So maybe I shared this with you. Last year uh Pastor Sam Matthews, Sam Matthews was our youth pastor. He had already finished four years and so it I felt it was time to change for him to become an assistant pastor at South. So last towards end of last year I started talking to him. I said, "Sam, next year we'd like to change your role." Like you move from being youth pastor to being uh assistant pastor. Who do you think will be good to be the next youth pastor? Let us train that person up for the next 6 months before we change. So I'm asking him directly. Um then so we discussed different people, different names. uh we thought about different so he already knows the youth right and here again we're looking within the community because somebody who already knows how youth ministry is happening at ABC if you bring somebody from outside uh it could be a little difficult culture all of those things so finally after we discussed uh different people we decided on Jonathan Tony uh finally then we spoke to Jonathan are you interested in becoming you pray about it. No, we're not forcing. No, no, thou shalt become you pastor. Nothing like that. You pray. We are planning like this. You pray, you come back and tell us, right? Um then he took time, prayed and so on. Then we said, okay, this is how it's going to work. Six months of preparation again. Then we gave him the option. Do you want to join staff full-time or do you want to work as a volunteer? whatever we have all the options for him. Um so then he came he said he wants to do it as a volunteer for some time all those things. Similarly for teen pastor right the same way Joshua Manola they [snorts] had finished four years as teen pastors and so again I spoke to them earlier this year like okay you know we would like to give this role to somebody who's young uh whom and then we discussed different names out of that I really felt Alan who grew up in at APC so he grew up through children's church everything he grew up so he understands what children's church is like what teen in church is like so he knows the goods and the bad the good and bad. So again then we spoke to so in certain cases we are not going through this normal resume process but we are selecting somebody we already know from the community whom we have seen for many years they've grown up here they have been working here they've been serving as volunteers so you know Alan for example has like I don't know maybe last five six years he's been serving as a volunteer Yeah, in teen ministry, youth may already serving uh but now we have to see if he feels God has called him to take this role full-time. Same thing with Jonathan. He's been part of the youth serving all these years, you know, as a volunteer, but do you feel called? So, we have the conversation. So, we already know the person. We know they have the skills. We know we can see something in the call. Now it's a matter of them making the decision and then in especially in pastoral roles we tell them to go through a Bible college right so that's why you know like so many different people uh who are now pastors or assistant pastors whatever they've all gone through our Bible college right because we want them to have some sort of that training even though they've been volunteers for many years we still tell them please go through Bible college sorry what was your >> [laughter] >> I was saying something. I hope I answered your question. Anyway, >> uh resume. Oh, correct. Thank you. So, to answer your question, Phoebe sees the resumes, but the reason I brought these examples up is sometimes we don't go through the normal resume because we know these people over time. Same thing with Bible college students, right? uh we see them when they're with us for last three years. So if we feel that they fit uh we make them an offer but for Bible college students very important is we we must not we must make them check with their pastor because uh many times not all but many times um they a pastor or some church or some organization has sent them to study here. So we uh we don't want to upset that. So very careful with Bible college students, right? If a pastor or a church has sent them uh because they want them to go back and serve. So even if the student says I want to stay here and I want to I say oh you check with your pastor [laughter] you know because your pastor sent you here or your organization sent you here or so you must check with them cuz they sent here so that they can go back and we don't want to disturb that. So we have to be respectful even though we may like the student and we know the student is very good uh we have to be careful of this. I think yeah but if all that is clear then we you know we take some of our Bible college students are working with us and that's how it happens right um questions online you have a question >> yes first I have two questions one is the first one is >> I hear you >> um let me make sure I had to just change Let me just make one change. >> All right. Can you speak now? >> Hello. >> Okay. >> Yes. Pastor, I wanted to ask you two questions. One was before hiring, how what is a good way to um put out that you are looking for someone especially when you're just starting out? I understand that, you know, now that as a church is established, you're looking for people in the community. It's easier to kind of advertise that you're looking to hire. How would someone go about doing that in a good way? And the second question is once you've hired someone and you've seen, okay, they're prayerful, they have integrity, all of that stuff, but over time other aspects of their character start to show that don't necessarily reflect what you thought was integrity. How would you go about managing that and dealing with that? >> Yeah. Yeah. Good, good questions. So first um especially when you're starting out it will usually be word of mouth you know or or somebody you see directly so example all the early people who joined us example pastor jkumar um pastor selena so pastor jkumar was I I just saw him I'd gone to a uh I was invited to speak at a conference uh over there and And I I met him and I just felt that he had a very strong call to be sorry in worship. Very strong call in worship. Uh and also um he at that time was working in in a in a corporate job which means uh and we were looking for somebody to do administration. So in that case I saw the person I know we had a need. So it was a direct offer like would you like to join us as administrator because he was already working corporate that area plus he had a definite call of God. So that's something you're seeing. So it's like a direct that's one way right you talk to the person uh you see the person you say hey I have a need you you have a conversation but no pressure like even that time I said you pray and you think about it and you let me know right so he he came back and said yeah he's open to joining for him it was a big change but so that's one way that you if you see somebody they match the need you have a conversation let them make a decision in pastorina's case we had a need and I just put the word out. I told people like our staff was very small, three people. I told her, "Hey, we have an aid. Can you get the word out like can you find somebody you know some if somebody is interested who matches this, we're looking for somebody to head this children's program. Um can you?" And then one of our people working for he knew about Selena. He got the word and then Selena sent the resume. So it was more like word of mouth and the resume came and uh there was a good match uh for the role that we're looking for and so uh I think either you know you see the person and directly second it's word of mouth and nowadays because you know we have social media and um uh website or even you know Instagram page or so on so it makes it a little bit more easy where you can put an a little announcement out on uh uh social media page uh whichever platform you're using and say hey we're looking for this role send in your resume to this right and you can describe what the role is so in the early days you can you can do something simple like that and but again I think very important is to write down the role and what would be the requirements for that person so that you can interview the person make sure they fit right the second question is uh those kind of things do happen that is after we hire a person we've done the best in the interview. uh sometimes things didn't surface right and this has happened also at EBC after we hire the person we find problems it now this could happen 6 months later one year later whatever maybe they don't have the required skills maybe their attitude goes bad you know then we address it so there we I will talk about this next time we have a three strike rule that means we'll give them two warnings And if things don't change, then we will have to dismiss. Right? So example, if they're not performing well, we'll have one conversation. Hey, you know, you're not doing your work well, you don't seem to have the skills. They may have done well in the interview, but after once they start working, we seeing gap, you know, please improve. You need to do these things. We're giving you three months or whatever, you know. So then we another review. They do well, it's fine. They don't, there's a second warning. uh and even after the second one they don't change then we have no option but to dismiss. So it could be their performance, their work or it could be attitude, something wrong, you know, a character issue, it could be uh behavior, conduct, those kinds of things. In most cases, we give them one or two warnings. In some cases, there's no warning, you know, especially if it is a serious misconduct, right? uh if for example like I said like if it has to do with money it has to do with people of the opposite gender like that it's an immediate termination because it's already stated that you know you cannot violate these code of conduct right but if it's like oh I got angry with someone or you know there's a thing we give them warning one two so three strike rule means you got two chances if it happens a third time then dismiss yeah [snorts] I will discuss more on and uh we continue. Thank you. >> Thank you. >> Thanks.