Chris Bowen on co-hosting COP and Australia's renewables target

From the conversation, this is politics with Michelle Graten. >> It's been a year of devastating floods and fires around the world, attributed in part to climate change, a stark reminder of the havoc that lies ahead as temperatures rise and weather patterns change. We're being warned that Australia should be prepared for a significant fire season ahead with the El Nino event set to be the hottest on record. Yet, progress internationally to deal with global warming is faltering and at home, the issue is not as high in people's consciousness as it was just a few years ago. This year, however, Australia is at the center of the international climate talks. It is co-hosting with Turkey this year's United Nations Climate Conference, the COP. And before the COP in November, there's a pre-COP meeting in Fiji and Tuvalu in early October. Climate change and energy minister Chris Bowen is president of negotiations for COP. He joins us today to discuss a range of domestic and international issues. Chris Bowen, firstly to the international scene. The United Nations has just released a report detailing how the world will overshoot the 1.5 degree warming target that was set out in Paris more than a decade ago. Have the efforts to contain global warming already failed? >> Thanks, Michelle. Um, no, that's not the way I see it, but it is a reminder, wake up call, whatever language you want to use, uh, of the need to keep going. And the UNEP, the United Nations Environmental Program, which put that report out, makes it, I think, crystal clear, and I would encourage interested listeners to have a look at it. It basically says 1.5 is now exceedingly difficult. But for every millimeter of a of a degree we go over that the ramifications are very severe for the planet and that we will ultimately need to deal with some clawback uh in future generations to try and uh reduce the temperatures and that's going to the easier that's going to be harder the more we overshoot 1.5 and also remembering that when the Paris accord was struck the world was on track for 4 degrees of warming um now we're down to something you know more akin to 2.8 with the UNFC or with UNEP using that 1.8 figure. So we are making progress but we need to make more. >> Now Australia is co-hosting the United Nations climate conference this year and you're president of negotiations for COP. just tell us how all that's working, what challenges you're facing that lie ahead in the next couple of months as we come to crunch time with the pre-OP meeting in the Pacific in early October and then the full COP in Turkey in November. >> Yeah, thank you for the question. Preparations are going well. Um, it is a big undertaking for both countries. I won't bore you with the details, but you know, there it's a novel arrangement. It's a unique arrangement that we've entered into with Tokyo with them being the physical host responsible for all that goes with that. It's a very substantial undertaking that they're they've got responsibility for. They have responsibility for what we call the action agenda which is pledges and commitments that countries can make that don't need consensus and we have responsibility for the negotiations which do need consensus. So I need 194 countries signing on to things to make them a reality. So that is the degree of difficulty. Every cop is difficult. I've been very involved with several of them now. So I've seen up close just how hard they can be. This one is no different. It will be a very difficult undertaking and it's in the context of a very complicated geopolitical situation and the world energy crisis. But also that world energy crisis has is providing frankly momentum um behind things like electrification and uh renewable energy because basically uh everyone sensible in the world recognizes that renewable energy is reliable and sovereign energy and can play a role in remedying the issues we're seeing arising out of the world's worst energy crisis uh by providing countries with more sovereign capability. So um look it it's a it's an import it's important moment for the country. It's our most important diplomatic engagements this year COP related um and so it's important for Australia as a middle power. You know Mark Ky gave a great speech uh in Davos uh I think earlier this year about the role of middle powers stepping up and Australia and Turkey as middle powers are stepping up. Yet many people see this COP as not one of the more momentous of these meetings that it's it's dealing with the more second level issues. Do you agree with that? And what are the issues that we'll see negotiations on outcomes from? >> Yeah, it's true. It's not one of the cops that's in the 5-yearly cycle that arises from Paris. So that is that is true. We always knew that to be the case, but every cop's important. Um, in terms of the issues, Michelle, there's a lot of momentum around electrification. COP's already decided that we need to triple renewable energy and double energy efficiency. We did that in Dubai. But the next big piece is well, what's currently done directly by fossil fuels that could be done by electricity. Uh, so there's a lot of momentum around electrification. We know the world is not doing enough of that and that's varies. you know in Germany that means electrifying things uh you know high heat processing uh in industrial processes in Africa it means home cooking um so there's a lot of momentum around that and we're working hard on that and how that gets reflected in the negotiations and also because we we are very keen to elevate the issues of the Pacific things like access to finance for small island developing states it's not so much more climate finance because there is a lot of it around now but some of the countries that need it most and that's why We've involved two valu in this for example the countries that need it the most are getting the least because of various hurdles that we want to see overcome. So elevating that and the importance of oceans in both adaptation and climate solutions is very very important to the Pacific family and we're elevating those issues as well. Now, just talking about precop, you've come under some flak domestically, uh, politically because it's been hard to get leaders to precop. Just where do we stand on leaders going? And of course, you can confirm, can't you, that the prime minister will go not just to preop, but to the main cops. >> Yeah. Prime prime minister is very engaged, which is wonderful. Obviously, >> he'll be at both cops. >> Yeah. And the leaders thing, let's just be clear, the preop is not normally a leader level event. You know, this idea that, you know, precops are a failure unless you have the UN General Assembly there is just just really out of keeping with all reality. This is the first preop that any leader will attend uh physically. Um it's we've done that with the Pacific to say well let's try and make this an event where we can get some focus on the Pacific issues by making it to a small degree a leader level event for the first time. >> Um so this is quite you know quite disingenuous for the opponents of the government to set this as the test. Now Touvalu is a very small country. It's the least visited country in the world Michelle like no country has fewer visitors than Tuvalu. So bringing anybody to Tuvalu is a big deal. And as the president of Palao said to me uh a couple of weeks ago, if you get one leader to preop, that's a that's a a major achievement. That's one more than we've ever had before. So we will have some prime ministers and presidents at preop. We'll also have the heads of um the Asian Development Bank, the Grand Climate Fund and uh the adaptation fund, which is absolutely key. These are, you know, these are leaders in the climate finance space. Absolutely key to the issues that the Pacific has asked us to prioritize in terms of access to finance. So, I'm very pleased with the level of engagement. We're going PROP is a sign significant undertaking. There'll be 4,000 or so people there. 120 last time I checked, international journalists had registered, so they're interested. So, it'll get coverage around the world in terms of what Australia's doing, what the Pacific's doing. It's all designed, a preop is designed to finalize the agenda for the COP. So that's important. Uh and to build momentum for the things that we talked about, you know, oceans and electrification, etc. around the pre-op. >> Just in terms of leaders, do you have a number at the moment? Are you still seeking leaders? And do you have any confirmed European leaders? >> It's moving around because obviously some leaders say they'd like to come but are not yet in a position to confirm. So it'll be clear when we're there. any confirmed European leaders? >> Uh, well, Europe's being represented um at the commissioner level who's my counterpart. So, but you know, can I just again, I'm not saying you're doing this, Michelle, but can I urge against a you know, euroentric point of view that somehow um you know, you've got to have this leader there or that leader there will be the leaders that are coming are very invested in the agenda that we're pursuing about access to finance and small island developing states. they'll they'll play a very important role in elevating the issues that we're elevating. And as I said, it is not normally an event. I mean, you could not take many leaders to Tuvalu. I've been to Tuvalu. Um, through no fault of their own, I'm sure not many of our listeners have because, as I said, it's the least visited country in the world. It's not a country which can was never envisaged to be able to accommodate, you know, tens and tens of world leaders. It just couldn't cope with that. And that >> I can attest to that. I've been to Two Villa, too. >> Yes, that's right. Um it's it's a beautiful country. It is in under it is at the front line. It is under severe climate threat. Um you know it is at widest point I think 6 m wide. Country that is in grave existential danger and uh elevating its importance in the conversation. Something I can tell you the tu prime minister is delighted. I mean the touvalu prime minister has said how important he thinks this gathering is and how well it's going. The tuvaloo minister who's in Australia I think this week or next week has said exactly the same. And the Fijian minister has said how delighted she is and how grateful she is. The head of the department in Fiji said I think he said the words extremely satisfied with the level of engagement of preop. So if you have the look at the debate in the Australian media and what the opposition says, it's very different to what the Pacific are saying in terms of how pre-cop uh preparations are going. >> Just before we move on, the United States of course has pulled out of Paris, but does it send any observers to the COP meeting? >> No, they're not COP party. They're not a card party to the COP anymore. So they they're not >> not even observers. >> The Pacific countries have been somewhat critical of Australia for not doing enough on climate issues and and critical for example of our high level of export of fossil fuels. What's your response to that criticism? >> So Michelle, well let's be clear. I mean when you say Pacific leaders, Pacific countries, one minister has said that in recent times. That's Ralph Ranken, the minister for Vanuatu. Um, so I think we should be careful about generalizing or um, you know, sweeping statements. Um, Ralph is a very passionate minister. I I like him and work with him and respect him. Um, he, this is not a new view that he has put. He's put that view consistently over many years. I caught up with Ralph last week. I I don't think he'd mind me saying. He said to me, "One, I'm deeply admiring of what you and your government are doing domestically and internationally. I'm fully supportive of your agenda. I think it's great what you're doing at COP. I think the work you're doing on decarbonization domestically is, you know, excellent." Um, he then said, "It's my role in the Pacific, I think, to push you to do even better." Um, and I understand that and I respect that and, you know, that is a role that I respect. Um, and I said to Ralph, "Well, Ralph, if you want to transition away from fossil fuels, we have to get the renewables built because you can't just take you can't just take the negative side of the equation and say, well, it's all about fossil fuel production unless you're building the renewables as quickly as you can to replace them." And that's our agenda domestically and internationally, which again, I don't think he would mind me saying he understood. So again, I'm not saying that he doesn't hold those views. He does, but I think it's important to put it in context. >> Let's turn to the domestic scene. Emissions have fallen on the latest figures in the year to December, but there are still concerns that Australia might not meet the reduction of 43% emissions below 2005 levels by 2030 and also even more concern that we won't meet the target of having 82% renewables by 2030. How are we going on these two targets? And do you still think we can meet one or both? >> I do I do think we can meet them. I'm not saying it's inevitable. I'm not saying we don't have more work to do. It is always it's always a challenge, but I am pleased with the progress we're making. Uh if you look at the two figures you mentioned, uh 82% renewables, it was 33% when we came to office. It's effectively 50% now. Um we've got more work to do. Um we just saw a wind farm reach final investment decision last week which was very positive big wind farm. Um there are some things Michelle which are going better than you would have envvisaged 12 months ago even and there are some things that you we're facing challenges and headwinds on which I'm very open about. Um >> which are the challenges? >> Well um wind farms are challenged around the world in terms of the price of steel's gone up and because wholesale prices have fallen in Australia that means the return on investment is lower. So wind farms are finding it harder to reach final investment decision as you'd hope or as was predicted a couple of years ago. On the other hand, something like home batteries um is globally significant and is playing a big role in getting us to 82. Uh you know 530,000 home batteries as we're recording uh 15 gatt hours. You know there's that we put in in just over 12 months. There's 9 g hours of home battery capacity in all of the United States. So we put in more in a bit over 12 months than the United States has put in its history. That's going very well. Um wind is going is facing more challenges. So it is a little bit of a swings and roundabout circumstance. We do need to keep the foot on the accelerator to meet the target. One of the things we've done uh Michelle since we came to office is I issue an annual statement at the end of every year and while I als while I issue the annual statement I also issue the projections the forecast the climate change authority report on progress which is all independent it's I would argue I think with some justification the most transparent process in the world for showing the Australian people how we're going and you know I think December's this December's report I haven't obviously it's not finalized because there's some way to go but I I think it will show that ongoing progress with more work to do. >> And you you are really confident about this 82% renewable. >> I believe we can get there. I believe I know it's fashionable in the media to say it's impossible. It is not impossible. Is it easy? No. But can we get there if we keep going? I believe we can. Yes. >> It's not just the media. Some experts would >> Well, you'll get different views, but there's also people who say, I mean, look, it's it's not unusual. There were people who said I remember Judah Sloan writing in the Australian there is no chance in the world we will get to 20% renewables on in the target uh and we beat we got there earlier with the government that wasn't even trying. So it's never the case that this is linear. You know there's a lot of projects supported by the capacity investment scheme for example that haven't started work yet and were never intended to. They're not included in the figures yet because they'll be built uh in the years between now and 2030. Again, I'm not for one second pretending there aren't challenges and headwinds. Of course, there are. It's the most significant economic transition our country has undertaken since the industrial revolution. So, you don't put a glossy brochure out and, you know, everything goes in a linear line. Um, you're going to get some things going better, some things facing more challenges. Now, the latest electricity statement of opportunities makes it clear that we need everything to be on the table uh or everything that's on the table to be delivered on time and on budget to avoid reliability problems when the next coal power stations close in New South Wales and in Victoria. This looks like a high risk set of assumptions. What backup plans do you have? Or don't you think you need backup plans? >> Well, I don't think it's about backup plans. I think it's about uh doing it, you know, making sure it all works, including making sure that you have all the necessary arrangements in place. The statement of energy opportunities, electricity opportunities that you referred to. It's a very good report, Michelle. I mean, this this comes out this has been coming out for years. It always has shown gaps in the system. It's basically designed to show the industry where to invest. This is the most positive issue report we've arguably ever had. It shows shortages further out than ever before and smaller than ever before. It tells the lie to this Liberal Party propaganda that somehow, you know, renewables equals blackouts because the opposite is the truth. Um, yes, it does show that we need to keep going. Of course, it shows that we do need to keep going. We do need the investments in the pipeline to become reality. Uh, that's a given. Like, I 100% agree with that. And um it's the case that the report is very positive, shows a huge pipeline of investment. It makes the case that that investment actually needs to occur. I agree with that. >> So you think we're getting enough investment and are we having to support that investment too much with government guarantees and the like? >> I am I am very pleased with the pipeline. I we need to see more of it reach the final investment decision and the environmental approvals and start construction. But the pipeline of investment is huge. I mean one of the biggest biggest in the world of of projects that have been worked on on renewables around the world and that's very encouraging and we've put in place uh measures to help that become a reality because it is very much in our national interest and that's primarily through the capacity investment scheme, cheap home battery scheme etc. because these are projects which unquestionably are in our national interest for them to proceed. >> Now many communities are still unhappy about the roll out of towers, wind farms, solar farms. Do you think that the opposition that's coming is increasing or decreasing? I >> I think it's important again to see it in context. There is opposition to large scale renewables particularly wind but also solar. Absolutely there is. But there's also support and the opposition tends to get a lot of attention for reasons I understand. But when you got someone who is in a community and they just quietly support a project and that's a good idea, they're not putting in an objection. That doesn't get the attention. Opinion poll after opinion poll shows the majority of Australians support renewable energy, support the transition, including Australians in regional areas. Um and um that's my experience too when I'm traveling through regional Australia. Do I get protests saying we don't want this? Absolutely I do. Um, do I also get stopped by people who say, "Keep going. This is great. We're all for it." Yes. I mean, that happened to me the other day in Goldman. A farmer came up to me and said, "This what you're doing is great. Please keep going." Um, ultimately, Michelle, I think there's a little bit of a misunderstanding in that, you know, One Nation says, "We're going to ban large scale wind and solar, but what about the rights of farmers who want it?" You know what? I trust farmers to make the decisions. And there are farmers right around Australia who are saying, "Well, my farm income is going down. Um, I'm impacted by drought. Why wouldn't I diversify my income by having, you know, some renewable on some of my land? This is a good thing." I think the farmers should be entitled to make that choice. Of course, it's got to go through all the necessary planning and neighbors have got to be consulted, but often and I've had a look at this and this got a bit of coverage the other day. Often when you look at the objections uh that go into new renewables, the most of the objections are many hundreds of kilometers away or thousands of kilometers away. So my view is where you have legitimate community concerns about amenity about impacts on roads whatever it might be that is very legitimate must be properly dealt with by the planning system locals must have their say but you also get people hundreds of kilometers away saying well this is communism and I'm for it I'm sorry that's not something that the planning system um needs to uh be bogged down in. And I think when you see oh there's hundreds of objections well look at where they're from. Again, there is there are concerns in communities. It is legitimate. They need to be worked through, but also there's lots of support and also you do see some organized campaigns from a long way away against renewable energy projects. >> Who's running those campaigns? >> Well, I mean, I don't know. There's there's some organization to it. Sometimes there just people putting their own submissions. And look, they can. I'm not saying they're not entitled to put in submission, but I think the planning system can look through it and say, "Well, here's someone who lives in another state objecting to this renewable energy project, and it's not quite the same as a neighbor saying they have concerns." >> Obviously, everyone has concerns about high power prices in a time when the cost of living has soared in recent years. Can you give us a sense of how you see the trajectory of household and business prices over the next 5 years? >> I think it's it's slow and steady progress. So, it takes time to um roll out renewables. It takes time for that to impact. It's impacting on wholesale prices more and more, particularly batteries. Again, I know I don't people might say you talk about batteries a lot. I do cuz they're very important. But the benefit of whole of batteries is that they're introducing more of that cheap renewable energy at night and at night is when we have the most pressure on prices and that's going to flow through to pricing more broadly and to retail prices. But it does take time. You know wholesale is about 40% of the bill and you know when wholesale prices come down it takes time to reflect in next year's retail bills. I think we're going to continue to see that sort of progress. It's not sort of a magic drop, but the more we build the renewables backed by the storage, the more downward pressure we see on prices, which will be reflected in that four to five year time frame that you're talking about. >> So, without revisiting the $275 figure, do you think that the average householder and the average small business person will have lower power prices in 5 years than they have now? I'm not making political promises but I am observing that we are seeing good progress which will be reflected in bills and there are some things which you know there are there are international impacts which I can't predict you know I I don't know what the international gas price will be for example there's the cost of building distribution and transmission regardless of who's in office and regardless of where the energy is coming from that has to be built but the bottom line is we are getting a lot more renewables in that will have a very positive impact on prices uh coming Yeah. >> Well, just on gas, uh you have a policy for a gas reservation scheme. Uh where is all that up to? And do you think that uh that scheme will be reflected in affordable prices uh when there's so much contentions contention from the industry? >> Yeah, I do. And that's you know, we're doing it for two reasons. One is prices and one is just supply. And on one level, Michelle, this is very complicated. U maybe I'll come back to that. On another level, it's very simple like just keep some Australian gas for Australians. It's it's not a complicated or ownorous ask. I think you know do what you like with 80% of your exports. Sell them wherever you like. Get as much as money for you as you can for them. That's fine with us. But keep 20% for Australians is not an ownorous ask. Now the complexity comes because you know we are doing it in a in a country that's already exporting a lot of gas. There's existing contracts to be honored. There's important trading partners to be respected. So that's where it becomes complex but the the policy principle is quite simple. Now we've put out the principles we are working on draft legislation um which there'll be an opportunity for people to you know put their views forward on. So it's well advanced. >> What's the timetable for that? >> Well by the time we go to air it may already be um out there. So we it's very well advanced and you know it's a good process. Now, we've seen the Conservative parties walk away from net zero and uh Pauline Hansen out with a a coffin that she's u attacking that's supposed to depict net zero. Do you think net zero by 2050 is anymore a realistic target for Australians given the not only the economic difficulties but the political complexities? >> Let me just take a moment to reflect Michelle on the point you made about the coffin. I mean this is a week where Paul Hansen has claimed to have being unfairly attacked. She's taken offense at, you know, comments that the prime minister and treasurer has made and said, you know, um, we need to take the temperature down. The leader of One Nation was literally nailing a coffin with the words net zero on it. Is that respectful debate? Barnaby Joyce stood up at a rally in Wulingong and said, "Send your bullets to Chris Bowen and Anthony Albani." Is that appropriate? Is that taking the temperature down? So, you know, if we're going to have the debate about respectful conversations, One Nation might like to start onto net zero, your question. Well, it is it's the important goal for the world because if we don't if you don't believe in net zero, you believe in a warming world or you don't accept the science. One of those two things. Either you don't accept the science and you believe that 99% of the scientists in the world are wrong. Or you do accept the science. You say that's okay for I am happy to sell out future generations. Now is net0ero is it's a bit like our conversation about the targets earlier. Is it easy or automatic? No. Is it the important vital spur to keep going and do more? Absolutely. Absolutely. So it is it is and politically it's achievable. Again, I mean, there's there's an ecosystem um of voters that One Nation, the Liberals, and the Nationals are fighting over that doesn't believe in it, but the vast majority of Australians do understand the science, do support the transition. Um, obviously, you know, have real cost of living concerns in the meantime. But that's not to say that they don't support the transition and are voting uh once every 3 years to keep going and are voting with their feet every day with 2,000 Australians investing in a cheap home battery for example. >> But even accepting some of your points, do you still think it's possible for Australia to get to this target by 2050? >> Yeah, I do. And again, I I I bring it back to what's 43% important for and 62 to 70 by 2035, which we didn't really talk about. They're all way points on the road to net zero. Now, am I sure we'll get there by 2050, the world or Australia? No, of course not. There's a lot of things that can go right or go wrong between now and 2050. Do I believe that it's important that we keep trying? Yes. Why? Because I accept the science, you know, because I don't deny climate change, which some in the building do, and One Nation does. I mean, they're open about it. Um, and secondly, because the ramifications, you know, politics is what's it about? It's about leaving the place better than what you found it. Um, well, if this generation is not trying to get to net zero, we are leaving the place much worse than the way we found it for future generations. Just on One Nation uh and a more broadly political question, we do seem now to have moved to a point where One Nation having been obviously a massive threat to the Conservative parties is now looking more like also a threat to Labor. Do you think that's the case? And what does Labor need to do to deal with that? I don't think we can take anything for granted any seat or any vote and certainly not my approach and it's not the governments not anony's um so we have to be we have to be um taking every earning every vote and every seat and that's our approach against one nation against the liberals against the greens against everyone I mean this isn't this isn't new for us um and you know we take that challenge seriously I mean I will say I remember maybe last election cycle every podcast you did not with you particularly but every podcast in the building or anywhere else people will put to Oh, it's inevitable. It's going to be a hung parliament after the next election. Labour's going to lose seats. You're going to get a minority. Well, nothing's inevitable. The Australian people will decide that on a on a Saturday in 2028. Um, there's a long way to go between now and then. I would just make this point, Michelle, again on you've asked about the politics and net zero. Yeah, the Liberals have dropped net zero. How have they been rewarded on that? Well, they've lost the seat of Farah. That's their one test. So, that hasn't worked for them real well. So, um, you know, I I fully accept and welcome that my portfolio is at the center of the political debate and will be at the next election and it was at the last election. I'm up for that. It's um um that suits me just fine. Um and ultimately to your answer about what we have to do, we have to keep achieving and delivering. And you look at this government's delivery record, whether it's my portfolio or across the board. I mean, as a Western Sydney MP and resident, I live in Western Sydney. brought my family up there with my wife. You know, the service delivery on things like uh urgent care clinics are massive in my community. The rebuilding of Fairfield Hospital for my community in the Fowler community is absolutely massive. That's the sort of delivery um together with our tax cuts, our free TA, our cheaper medicines um is all delivery that makes a real difference to people. We need to keep going on it and we need to effectively communicate it. You mentioned your portfolio will be one of those at the center of the election. Uh would you be up for the same portfolio next term? Would you be wanting the same portfolio next? >> I serve at the pleasure of the prime minister, but but yes, I do have unfinished business and want to keep going. Just finally, a few months ago, every day we were talking about fuel, uh, its supply, its price, and um, you were of course out every day giving reports. It's faded somewhat as >> I'm still giving the reports, Michelle, now it's just people aren't paying as much attention as they were a few months ago. >> That must be frustrating. Oh, >> not really. >> Uh, so just finally give us an update of of where we are and where you see that going. We've done very well as a country and I'm very pleased with the way the industry has worked with government. I mean, it wasn't that long ago, Michelle, that one nation called for for uh rationing of petrol. Dan Ten said it was inevitable that there were going to be shortages and it was all going to be our fault. He was playing politics. They were playing politics. We had the view that a calm sensible approach would see us through. And that's what's happened. I mean, uh, we have more fuel in Australia today than the day Iran was bombed. You know, you wouldn't have got money for on a bet on that in April. You know, I remember screaming head, you know, you talked before about experts. I remember, you know, experts in the newspaper saying there will be rationing after Easter. It's inevitable. That was never my view. There were challenges and risks, but we overcame those and we have more work to do. I've put a discussion paper out about how we build more fuel resilience because EVs are being taken up in massive numbers, but we're still going to need liquid fuels for many years to come. We need to improve that. We need more in Australia. We're looking at more refining capacity. All that is part of a sensible approach which ensures our resilience as we are transitioning to more renewables. >> Chris Bowen, thank you for joining the podcast. We'll watch the COP and the precop with much interest. That's all for today. Thank you to my producer Ben Roer. We'll be back with another interview soon, but goodbye for now. >> Production by Ben Roer, theme music by Lee Rosie. The conversation is a not for-p profofit media organization. Sign up to our daily newsletter for evidence-based news and analysis, including articles from Michelle Graten, or listen to more of our shows wherever you get your podcasts.