Champlain Housing Trust: Elmwood Avenue Pods Updates

Welcome. Hello everyone out there in TV land. I am so pleased to be joined by Michael Monty U from CHD. >> Happy to be here. Really happy to be here. Thank you. >> Community housing. >> Champlain Housing Trust. >> Champlne Housing Trust. Thank you. >> Yeah. >> So tell me just like give us a you know elevator story of Champlne Housing Trust and how did you become involved? What do you what do you do there? >> Oh, so I am the CEO of Champlne Housing Trust which means I am the chief executive officer. I am um surrounded by uh a staff of of about 155 or so people who are doing a variety of different kinds of things. A core staff of leadership of about eight folks, department heads and and others who have been doing this work collectively for a long long time. I've been working there for about 20 years. Um and um you know pre previous to that I worked at the community economic development office and I worked at uh King Youth Center many decades ago but CHT was started in the 80s as uh doing shared equity home ownership as its principal motivation. It started doing some rental housing trying to make sure that the old north end uh did not become gentrified and that people were not displaced. That was his principal idea is not uh not let's not uh let's not gentrify the old north end. Let's provide home ownership opportunities that are permanently affordable uh forever. So the shared equity model became a key part of the work that was done again got into rental housing and then merged with another group that was doing the same kind of work throughout the three county area too as we were expanding throughout the county and the new organ that was Lake Champlain a new organization became Champlne Housing Trust. So it went from the Burlington Community Land Trust to Champlne Housing Trust. And so now it's got we have rental housing of all types and all sizes and all kinds throughout Franklin, Chin, and Grandal County. And we have shared equity home ownership. Uh 720 or so homes that are in the portfolio, but we probably create um 35 to 40 new homeowners every year uh because people move on to other types of home ownership. Um we have five different loan programs. um doing uh everything from farm workers to mobile home lending that's statewide actually uh to VHIP program from the state and multif family rental support and homeowner support um very patient capital. We have counseling and education for folks to become homeowners or even to sustain their work uh sustain their their lives in rental housing. So, a whole lot of coun financial counseling and education. Um, in the world of um um um multif family rental, we serve special populations. Uh we're building a building now for development disabled folks who uh in uh on St. Paul Street. Um but we'll do also market rate housing. U market rate being much less costly but but basically free from the affordable housing requirements. Um and um a lot of special purpose housing for like steps to end domestic violence. We bought that building, fixed it up, sold it to them for a dollar. Uh we uh have done that a lot with CVO recently, continuing to do that in the future on on shelters throughout both Franklin County and Chitten County. Um and then community centers, the old north end community center, the O'Brien community center, um the legal aid building next door, uh the food shelf for feeding chin further down um across the street uh which was once pathways uh will be another nonprofit use at some point. The multi-gen center or now what is ch space that land underneath that is all part of our portfolio. a couple hundred thousand square feet of that square feet of that kind of stuff. Um, >> do you have a sense of how much when you say that, how much land is in shared equity? >> Um, >> under CHTs. >> I haven't really actually counted acreage. We should go back and count acreage. Um, >> percentage. I think it'd be like interesting to know what the percentage is. >> No, I think that's right. I mean, a lot of it has to do with not all of it is land. Sometimes we have condominiums where we have a covenant that says this this condominium unit has to be permanently afforded. >> Yeah. Let's break that down a little bit for folks because you shared equity is an easy term and to you know full disclosure I live in a shared equity home. >> I live in a CHT home. >> It has allowed me to you know it allowed us to buy our first home. It's my continual home. It was, you know, owned by Fanny Gardner >> back in the day [laughter] and, you know, probably be really mad about it being a shared equity home, but she's, you know, she would also be behind it in a way. >> What's the philosophy behind that and what does shared equity mean? >> Sure, that's good. Um, so the idea is that um um and we'll use today's terms, not when you bought it because that was a while back, but in today's terms, it might cost $450 to $500,000 to both build or buy a new home. Uh new condominium may be a little less. That's unaffordable to 120 130 140% of median income. In other words, you had to be up there in terms of income uh to be able to afford that. What shared equity does is we put money in, public money in, we reduce the price to say $200,000. Now, you um can afford that and your mortgage payment and if you're a condominium, your all the other payments will be [snorts] sort of equal to what the market rent price is. the market price is for rent right now, even below that at this point. But essentially, we bring a subsidy in, we sell it to you a much less price. You get to own it forever. You get to move when you want. Um, you get to give it to your children. Uh, you get to generate all the wealth um that you might have in terms of a low cost because you're not now making a bigger payment. Your payment is mortgage and principal that is more stable. Um, you uh get to make improvements um and you get to move. And we don't ask you every year how much do you make and what about this and what about that. It's yours. >> Yeah. >> When you go to sell, we say to you, okay, time to sell. How much is it? What' you buy it for? When we sold it to you, it was worth 400,000. It's now worth 500,000. We're going to give you a part of that appreciated value. Okay? You're going to keep all the principal and all all the all the principal payments you brought down, all the savings you might have had by having a lower cost, a home, uh, and all that appreciation by 25% and you get to pocket that. >> Now, we then sell it to the next person at a slightly higher price, but again, as an affordable price. >> Yeah. >> So, the housing remains permanently affordable. And what's important about that is that not only you become certainly a first-time home buyer, but [snorts] the next person can become a first-time home buyer. And it doesn't take that home doesn't go from $200,000 because we gave you a big subsidy and is now worth $500,000 which the next person can't afford. that what that does is really stabilizes neighborhoods and stabilizes whole communities and gives everybody in that neighborhood and that community a chance to afford a home. And so when I say we sold for instance last year 35 homes that was not creating any new homes that was simply people moving on >> uh taking their money and buying another home >> equity homes entering and and then we're building new ones uh right now >> building or purchasing market homes and making shared equity And we we do it in a few ways. One uh way is building new. So we built 20 condominiums in Wuski about 5 years ago. We just sold 32 homes in Shelburn uh which we built. Um we're starting construction. We have started construction on 30 new homes at Cambrian Rise. And so we are doing new construction right away on our own. The other thing we do is we do uh we do a lot of work with Habitat. So, we're constantly supporting Habitat in their work, >> providing opportunities for them to build. Everything that Habitat does becomes a shared equity home. And so, we're getting new new homes coming into the portfolio through shared equity on occasion. And we have taken rental homes and converted them. We're more careful about that, but we see some new opportunities coming online. Some of the landlords who have onebedroom, one uh, you know, one unit buildings or two buildings are getting out of the business or looking to diversify out of that kind of just smaller home. Uh, and we're looking at sort of purchasing that and converting them back into homes, which is what they once were. Uh, and so we see, you know, that as a continued opportunity. >> 50 years, 40 years, just passed the >> let's call it 84 or so. Yeah. 1984. >> 1984. Yeah. So, you just passed the 40-year mark. >> Um, and >> the philosophy, like you're sort of alluding to the philosophy of the ne of the organization a little bit in stabilizing neighborhoods, but talk to us a little bit. Right now, we're in this this moment where we hear a lot about housing crisis. >> Yes. >> We hear about homelessness or folks who are living on in the streets without housing. But this started 40 years ago at a time that that that this this conversation was going on then. So what's the organiz what's the organizing philosophy that drives CHT? >> Yeah. So I mean I think one of the things we wanted when we do this is we we try not to simply just build housing. We do try an attempt to sort of build communities and be responsive to a local community. Um and so our our our philosophy is is really to leverage as much of the kind of resources that are out there which are often difficult to leverage. You know it's not you know in the world of world of everything it's if we simply had a bunch of money and could buy a home and sell it to somebody else for less expensive that would be that'd be great. But often enough it requires a whole range of tax credits and other resources and special you know financing and all this other stuff. So it's complicated. So a lot of what we do is fairly complex real estate work. And then what we do is we turn around and say it's this is available to you now for you know um this might sound expensive to some but it's not. $1,100 for one bedroom includes everything. Mhm. >> And when you move in, you move in, you don't have to worry about being evicted if you, you know, there you have a right to be there forever. You uh you have um you have some protections as a result. It's basically rent controlled. You have a uh the ability to move uh somewhere else and ask for transfer to another community. So, you have more rights as a tenant with us than you would typically in the market. And so in that context we're sort of like you know creating commu community and opportunity. So when we have these events we have picnics and we have annual meetings and we have a few hundred people show up. Uh most of them are residents and most of the activity and need discussion is around >> how we could address these issues. These the issues that we have for um right now in terms of homelessness is different than we ever had. So this is this is not a a typical moment. There has been homelessness, okay? Right before the pandemic, there were probably 20 to 25 maybe 30 people who were chronically homeless. Literally, we knew who they were and we had a number. And when we were putting up properties and we were buying motel for a long, we bought about 12 motel and converted them. We would buy one of the motel and move 20 people in. And we actually reduced that number down to like 25, you know, um that whole situation has blown up. >> Yeah. >> Through the pandemic and the level of drug use and uh has created conditions where people are not able to get the resources and support they need in order to be healthy. That's one issue. But second is is that the there was such an immigration and such a pressure on the rents that are in Burlington that they really skyrocketed. If you saw 1,200 >> you saw we saw an increase in people moving here. >> Dramatic increase. >> Oh, >> dramatic increase. People buying homes and simply not even coming here but knowing that they had a home because of the pandemic. People were able first of all because you could work at home you could work from you could live anywhere. >> Yeah. So homes would be uh being bought on a regular basis from people who are simply coming from out of town and saying this is a this is a you know a much better place to live. Remember if you compared yourself living in a big urban area and you looked in Vermont, Vermont had very few COVID cases. Looked as safe as hell. >> Let's buy there. And look, it's cheaper than this big urban area. So we had a lot of immigration, a lot of pressure on the market. Uh that pressure is still there. uh and you know maybe a onebedroom would have been $1,200 five years ago, six years ago is now $2,400 in the market. That pressure is still there. There needs to be more market rate housing built uh certainly in order to sort of manage that pressure, but the amount of the lack of housing that sort of at that level at at least level that is affordable has dramatically increased. Um, and so, you know, we've done our best to increase the number of home units that we we would buy, the rental apartments that we bring online. Prior to the pandemic, we would do 20 or 40 new apartments a year. Now, we're doing 100 200 a year in order to keep up, in order to sort of address the issue. We didn't really have the resources we really needed prior to the pandemic to build the amount of housing we really needed at that point. And it showed up during the pandemic as pressures of new people moving in and as rents going up created conditions where we needed to build more. So we just sort of hit by itself its own kind of the the the market itself for housing got really really really hard. I >> mean these are kind of massive forces that are almost bigger than any of us. It's like what we see downtown is not >> slightly massive forces. Yes. amounts [laughter] of that are bigger than any of us that we're trying to fix on a local scale. And certainly there's been this idea of we can create these institutions that help to create I don't know if you'd call it reform measures, >> but to what degree is what CHT doing like a massive reform or changing the structures >> um of what of how we're thinking about housing and how we're providing housing? I I I think we're both sort of um um playing in the field of traditional um landlord uh but providing opportunity for renters at a at a rate at a rate that is so much lower and which give renters sort of more rights than they typically would that uh every because all of our rental properties are permanently affordable. >> So we're not going to build something for 10 units and decide to flip it >> or sell it to somebody else or raise the rents because we can. Yeah, >> because we can't. We won't. And the idea is for it to be affordable forever. So this So our >> Does that make a dent in other housing prices? Like is at what point does that at what point does that then infiltrate market rate housing? >> I'm not sure how much it does because I think the number of people who we can serve is so dramatic. >> Yeah. that they're not gonna they're not able to reach into the market regular market and they and we really can just sort of build more housing and serve that population. >> The idea of CHT really is to serve as a model for how other communities can approach housing, right? >> I think so. I think so. >> And then maybe think about I mean does CHT get involved in kind of the political landscape around >> um >> so not so much the political landscape. Um, we we we we do get involved in I've been saying this a lot lately, policy and programs. So, pre pre-policy and programs, there's politics. We watch the politics and keep our head down and attempt not to sort of be involved too much in sort of like that debate. But when it get when it slides from politics into what the program should be, what the policy should be, yeah, we will raise our voices and say, you know, uh, out of all of that, what you really need is more more affordable rental housing. You know, what you really need is more structures for treating people. You need better health care systems. You know, what you need is more more shelters. And so we move into this is the programmatic response to the politics of the day >> which is maybe the pods and the motel programs all those things housing. So let's just talk about that a little bit is >> I do want to say one thing much of our rental housing you know um is not a good chunk 20% 25% of our folks are home formerly homeless but a lot of the people who live in our housing are working uh and just just not enough to afford the market. So, I want to be clear that our range of housing certainly in the rental market goes from homelessness to folks who are ready to become homeowners. Yeah. >> You know, and it's a wide range of incomes and a wide range of people and >> and as you said, you can get in on a certain income, but you get to stay there. Yes. >> Even as your income grows, which is really different than a lot of other programs. >> That's right. >> Healthcare programs where once you reach the cliff Yeah. >> you fall off benefit programs where you can't make more money. >> Yeah. So we have a wide range of we're meeting a wide range of incomes and uh we're just we're just not helping uh upper middle class shall we say [laughter] >> unless you're already there >> as unless you're already there. >> So >> um so talk a little bit you talked about the programmatic issue and that you know you get involved in that place. We just had a bill pass that creates the continuum of care that I imagine um >> Oh yes, on a statewide level. >> The statewide level that CHD is going to be involved in in some way. >> And you know why I reached out to you originally was just like give me an update on what's going on with the pod. >> Sure. Absolutely. on Elmwood Avenue, >> which is maybe a public facing um uh example of the work that you're doing. >> Um that's in this emergency housing sector. So just talk a little bit about that. >> Okay. So there has always been a Chitten County Commu continuum of care and it's the homeless alliance and for the last decade and a half or so uh we've had people we've people sitting on it and our current uh director of homeless programs is a co-chair of that. Uh so we're always engaged in sort of that work about how to bring more resources, more support for folks who are homeless. Um, you know, one of the issues that we're uh I'll just say this as an aside, but one of the issues today is a lot of people who are in motel are out today, September 1st. >> Oh, today's the day. >> Today is the day. >> Oh, >> some are some are able to stay a little longer, but most are out. you're going to see actually more people on the street as a result of essentially the um movement away from providing motel vouchers voucher programs to folks who were you know in the motel and you know when we had the motel program during the co you actually didn't see people hanging out downtown because they had a place to live even though it was a motel room and even though it was not let's just say uh fully resourced in terms of services that people needed or perhaps like for focusing in on some of the issues in terms of drug use. It still kept people off the street. They had a place. You didn't see City Hall Park that way. They had a place to go. So the the the really issue the real issue is and what the what the pods was a response to is the attempted to solve that issue. Now what I would say is the pods going on entering its fifth year. You got to give some >> what the pod >> for our for our audience. >> Elman, it's actually the Elman Avenue community. So my folks use Elman community and that's more clearly an attempt to try to make sure that >> this is more than just a pod that you throw people in. Yeah. >> Uh so it's pretty cool. It's pretty interest. I mean from being from from looking at from the outside you go >> where did this idea come from? Who came up with it? >> Yeah. So this is then um the city of Burlington was faced with um uh Sears Lane and wanted to relocate all of those people and the response was from the Weineberg administration is we need to create another place for this to be uh we have a parking lot. What could we do here? the city admit staff at that time said there's this pod idea people living in these small rooms with a larger community center that they go to and sort of shared showers and so uh the city really developed it's on city land developed it and then sought an operator which is us so we operate a motel now and we operate you know uh and we we have facilities which are operated by others doing shelter work um so We sort of said sure we know how to operate this kind of thing and we brought CVEO and community health centers and others into service f to provide services to people. So people come to the pods and they stay we thought they would stay for 6 months and then they would move into other housing. Truth is because of that market pressures we couldn't find other housing for people to move. So people were staying not not um you know just 6 months but they were staying 260 280 almost a year in the pods before they could move into something else. We also because we're low barrier no questions asked. Um we're taking people on who are struggling a lot and frankly we didn't um we had to remove a lot of folks who just couldn't live with other people in the pod situation. A lot of our folks, a good chunk, um, uh, really over time, maybe 25 or 30 folks found permanent housing, but a lot of people had to move out. About 90 or so had to move to other locations, um, be homeless again or to move out of town in some way. That's not a great success rate from that perspective. But in keeping people off the street, basically, we continue to do that. large numbers of folks, 32 34 folks off the street in a place that is uh princ uh safe and secure. Now, there was a big backlash to the pods when they were first created. Oh, what's going on here? This is terrible. >> Truth is is that um the sort of activity that people were mostly worried about happens outside the ponds. Not right outside the ponds. Some of that was happening there, but that that that was banished. And in fact, that was happening because of other reasons, not because of the pods themselves, but the bad activity that people are seeing and feeling and not wanting to happen, the kind of things that are going on perhaps at city hall park are happening outside the pods and happening inside the pods. >> The pods are more safe and more secure and more stable for most people. And so one of the things the initiatives we're talking about now is looking to seeing if we could build this 100 bed shelter which would be low barrier and could bring people off the streets and give people a place to put their stuff and give other people a place another place to hang out during the day. Get them out of sort of the public parks and where they have no place to live. There there at this point the estimate is about 300 people who are unsheltered. And I'm not talking about unhoused in shelters, but unsheltered >> just in the Burlington area because it's closer than 3,000 in Vermont, right? >> I'm not sure what the number is in the Vermont, but 300 or so more or less in Chinton County. That's an estimate. Um it's not a a precise count at this point. And that number, a a chunk of those folks are hanging out inside the park, uh city hall, downtown, and other places. And that's what's creating sort of this crisis of what's going on here and what how are we going to manage it. So, one of the things we're looking at right now is whether is how and where can we create a 100 bed shelter. >> So, you wouldn't do the pods again. You wouldn't do a second pod location. So, we did talk about doing a we did actually have a proposal last fall um which was which involved community health centers, University of Medical Center, Howard Center, CS CVOE and US for a pod community of 120 uh with three separate groupings. First grouping was loaria. Second grouping was trans people in transition to u maybe being healthier. So they had they needed more work. Third was totally sober. >> Mhm. >> And to create a community where there was a center for services and and and more support uh and to create a larger community to sort of meet this current demand that we see right now that's out there that didn't get much traction at the state level, >> should we say, at the upper echelons of uh the state of Vermont. So we stepped back from that. So now the rep rethinking has been okay. So if we're not going to do that, then we'll do a 100 bed congregate shelter. A pod community gives everybody a little bit more space, a little bit more support individually, shall we say, and 24-hour kind of. >> And are you looking at existing buildings that are out there that building? >> Now we're looking at existing buildings and trying to determine where we can put a 100 bed shelter, which is mostly a daytime shelter, which would still have services. We still have health services and medical services and mental health services and employment services but would not be you live here 24 hours. So it's a step back away from this larger pod community that we had suggested. Again this proposal came from not just CHT but it was CBO with its partners and in the community that everybody knows about community health centers Howard and others. Um so the the shelter will be all of those individuals organizations will likely still will also be involved with CVO taking the lead. CHT will probably do the you know the building the redevelopment of the building getting the building ready for that use. Um and that's going to be valuable and and uh probably have a positive impact in terms of supporting people and getting people off the street. And in that when you list off that group of names I think to what degree are the people that are served by this meaningfully involved in any of that planning either through the real world experience that you're seeing what you're hearing from >> people who are unsheltered involved in the planning itself. >> Yeah. Yeah. That are >> not as much. I mean they through the contin of care does some work where folks who are homeless are involved and their voices are listened to. >> Yeah. Uh so in that context, but not necessarily in sort of like all of this other stuff, uh it's more like we know we people need a bed. >> Yeah. >> And let's get them a bed. >> Yeah. >> And let's get them a nice Let's get them a meal. Let's get them a nice place to go to during a day. >> Cuz when I think about 20 folks all living together, >> well, all those stresses. Yes. And it was interesting that you, you know, you acknowledged that, you know, sort of three different >> breaking. Yeah. again. So we have a 32 pod community now. So that would be basically let's say three of those. >> Yeah. >> Uh and one would be this is what you are all working on and yeah you're using so let's sort of just like know that you are and uh let's sort of see if we can get you move into and graduate into the other levels. >> Yeah. >> Move people up. >> Yeah. >> We'll still do that or CVO really will do this work. We'll still do that with the 100 bed shelter. It's just going to be different and not as not as uh there won't be as strong as an opportunity to build community like you said and within each pod where people can be supporting each other >> or moving through pro the processes of graduating and getting healthier and getting stronger. >> Um we we're trying to cover a lot in just a little >> we got so much more to do. >> We have a lot you have there's a lot more to do. Um, and I I'm going to ask you a question that you know, you don't have to have the full answer to it, but um, why are we at this place where we're at today? Why is the conversation about um downtown focused on uh the behavior of people who are um under the influence of addiction or >> under the influence of forces that are beyond any of our control in a large way? Yeah, I think I well I think uh the um rents the rents are high and there's no really available sort of market rent or any other rent that is low enough for people to get into. >> So why do we not do rent control? >> Well, I think rent control uh um we do we practice rent control in our properties. >> Yeah, that's what I'm asking about. >> Let's be let's be let's be clear. Uh, but I'm not too sure at this point. Everything I've seen in terms of rent control in other places at this point recognizes the rents as they are and says you can't increase it by more than 5%. What we really need is more housing at a very affordable place and sometimes more housing that is support providing supportive services and perhaps more housing where there's more treatment involved. So we need a range of for the people on the street who are addicted. >> We need a range of sort of like approaches. Now, let me also say this and um sometimes my friends get upset about this. There are some people who shouldn't be on the street and shouldn't be should be just simply, you know, adjudicated. Okay? There are folks who are breaking the law in a in a serious way. >> I see that I we I'm downtown all the time and when I see sort of the praying of drug dealers in in that community, um it's pretty upsetting. Uh and I think though what happens is that this group of people who are on the street don't don't understand at this point to what level their level of addiction is impacting others. They got each other. They got no place to live. >> Well, it's a public space. >> It can get high >> and it's a public space that is open to the public. >> It is. I don't want to debate you too much about that. >> We're not debating you just like it is a >> it is a public space. What does what does happen and it does have impact is that it does it they are >> at times creating conditions which are very very hard and not just scary but in fact violent to others and I think that that's the issue that >> yeah need to be paid attention to >> it's probably doesn't feel good to be there it doesn't probably feel good to be >> I think I think it's I think it's horrible to be in that state there's no comp there's no compassion there to be saying let's just let that's cool you're free will knock yourself I really do think that compassion would be providing people with better choices, better opportunities for them to go to and get support that they need. >> Yeah. >> Um it has sometimes people have to get there through low barrier which I think is really really valuable. Sometimes people have to go through processes where they maybe they could sign up for whole more serious treatment program. We have such a lack of treatment in the state of Vermont at this point. Such a lack of sort of like support for folks. >> Yeah. And then we're gonna start talking about the cost of health care >> and whether there are hospitals available and beds >> all that stuff already all that stuff. >> So I [laughter] mean >> so it it is >> we need another half hour at least. Yeah >> it does keep going. Yeah. >> Um there you have some notes here. So I want to make sure that you um that you covered uh what you want to cover. I mean, I think for me that that I mean, you can look at those notes, but understanding why community Champlain Housing Trust is doing what it's doing and that impact on the larger community >> and the, you know, at what point that ripple effects structural changes so that, you know, my kids don't have to just rely on a shared equity home that they could choose from any home. That's right. >> To buy that you don't have to rely on shared equity rents and housing that anybody who works here >> in the city >> Yeah. >> can afford to live here as well. >> I mean that's good. I I I do think that um I would say that we still need to build housing of every type. Um, and I think though we need to really have a focus on providing opportunities for people being in rental housing that is affordable and that's what we do and that where people don't get displaced so that they could then save up some money and buy a home. Maybe it's a shared equity home and then after that buy a regular home. So I do think we're part of a very important part of the continuum. There's very few people who start out with going, "Oh, I'm gonna go from this to that big house in the sky." >> There's usually some steps along the way. I'm going to be have a roommate. Now I'm going to get this better apartment. Now I could afford this. Now I want to go do that. We're part of that continuum. And and that's an important part of this community to have that. We need more of that actually to in order to move people off the street. And that continuum also has to have services sort of at the very at this end of the continuum. There needs to be more support for people who um need housing but need supportive services in a very in a decent strong way. So, what keeps you um sane and ticking, Michael Monty? >> I ride I ride my I ride my scooter as me as fast as I can, as safe as I can in as many different locations as I can. No, I let me say this. My um uh the work at CH every day is challenging and there are times when I'm just going, I can't believe this. I can't believe we're doing this. What's going on? and um and I we hit walls. At the same time, I believe in the organization overall is strong enough to be able to be outwardly focused and paying attention and responsive. We're building three and four or fivebedroom homes in Wooki because the African families in Wooki are being displaced. Mhm. >> We're building we're building 10 units for people who are disabled because that community of parents said, you know, you closed Brandon and you didn't provide an alternative. Now those folks have a place to live >> and we're continues to be responsive to sort of a wide range of issues and needs in the community. It's a it's a it's I really love doing the work. >> Cool. >> You know, thank you. Thanks for sharing a little bit with us today. Oh, >> sure. >> And thank you all for watching. Be well. Bye.