Cardiff Agreement | Cytundeb Caerdydd: Rhun ap Iorwerth and John Swinney | Full Press Conference

uh Prinhound Da uh Bab, good afternoon uh to you all and thank you for joining us. And it is a real pleasure uh to welcome uh the first minister of Scotland to the Welsh government's headquarters here in Cardiff uh today. If I may, at the outset, I would like to uh express my sympathy with the prime minister uh on the sad uh news of the death of his father uh today. I know I speak on behalf of John and his government too in sending our heartfelt condolences to Andy Bernham and his family on what is a very very difficult day for them. This is the first visit of its kind uh by the first minister of Scotland uh since our governments here in Wales came into force in May. Another first is the fact that Scotland and Wales are now led by governments who believe in the potential we have to thrive as independent nations. Scotland and Wales are on different constitutional journeys, but we share a belief that the people of both our nations should be able to decide their own future. In that spirit, this new agreement sets out areas of shared interest on which we as first ministers and our respective governments will collaborate in the coming years to strengthen democracy and improve outcomes for those we represent. Today, we have signed an agreement that reflects that shared outlook and sets out how our governments will work together in the years ahead. This isn't about legal obligations. It's about practical cooperation on the issues that matter the most. We believe to the people we serve. We will work together to tackle child poverty and the cost of living to build a stronger, more sustainable economy and to address the climate emergency. will also work on things together that shape who we are as nations, our language, our culture, our media, and our sports. We're already seeing uh that partnership in action. Kunnel uh our new pilot uh in Wales to support children in low-income households draws directly on the success of the Scottish child payment. That is exactly the kind of practical shared learning that this agreement will build on. We also share a commitment to strong, accountable, devolved government and to a relationship between the governments of these islands built on trust and mutual respect, not least when it comes to UK funding arrangements and the operation of devolution itself. [snorts] These common endeavors are rooted in the belief that the relationship between all governments of the United Kingdom should be underpinned by trust and mutual respect. The United Kingdom in its current form is unjust and unsustainable. We will use every opportunity available to us to press the case for greater fairness for Wales and Scotland in areas such as the fiscal framework and powers over our constitutional future. This agreement represents an important step to work towards those ends together. I'll now hand over to the first minister of Scotland, John. >> Thank you very much, Re. And good afternoon, ladies and gentlemen. First of all, let me associate myself with the first minister's comments about the death of Roy Burnham, the prime minister's father, and express on behalf of the Scottish government my sympathies to the prime minister and his family at such a difficult moment. I very much welcome the opportunity to be in Cardiff today and to have the opportunity to sign with the first minister of the Cardiff agreement uh as a representation of the cooperation that I want to encourage between the Scottish and the Welsh governments. We find ourselves in a very different political situation now with the governments of Wales and Scotland led by first ministers who believe fundamentally in the right of their own peoples and Wales and Scotland to decide their own constitutional future and for that future to be an independent future. We take our own decisions about the steps that we advance. But fundamentally the coop the opportunity for cooperation between our two governments is strengthened by the political perspective and outlook that we both represent. We have taken forward an agreement which is in essentially has two key elements about it. The first is to encourage the engagement and cooperation and collaboration between our two governments in every respect in relation to policy formulation in the meeting of challenges that we we both face and [snorts] about ensuring that we act to promote the interests of our countries in exercising their own responsibilities. But secondly, the agreement represents an opportunity to cooperate on some specific policy areas and perspectives. And the first minister has set out a number of those possible areas, particularly in relation to child poverty. For example, where the eradication of child poverty is the absolutely central commitment of my government and the program for government that we set out to parliament just a week past Tuesday. It demonstrates the centrality of that commitment. We support that commitment with much wider steps on boosting the economy, on taking climate action, on improving our public services. And all of these issues are issues in which we can collaborate and cooperate and learn from each other as we take forward our policy agenda. So I look forward on those in terms of that outlook and in terms of the substance of government to cooperating with the Welsh government. There is of course also an important dimension about how we as devolved governments interact with the United Kingdom government and on certain issues such as in the postrexit environment the implementation of the internal market act we can see real damage done to the scope for decision making by the Scottish and Welsh governments because of legislation of that nature. So there is a ready opportunity for us to work together which is anchored in this agreement to try to overcome obstacles of that nature which we will endeavor to do so. So I look forward in that spirit of cooperation and collaboration to working with RE uh with the Welsh government in taking forward issues that will be of mutual benefit to the people of Scotland and the people of Wales. >> John, >> thank you. >> Thank you. So yes, this agreement gives us, I think, a clear structure to take a number of different strands of work forward. We'll meet at least once a year to review progress and agree our shared priorities with regular contact, not just between us, of course, but between our ministers and officials in between. But now we're happy to take questions uh from you, our friends in in the press. And I'll begin with Elena, her story from PA. Hello. Um, can I ask you both just to reflect on the significance of today? I mean, we've had two press conferences in which you've talked extensively about about the union and what that future looks like. Mr. Swinny, you've said that the signing of this agreement is an important moment in the history of devolution. Do you see today as I suppose the beginning of the end for the UK or is that something that you feel was already set in motion? >> I think this is a a very very significant day. I described it this morning as a pivotal moment because of the political change that the uh the engagement we had this morning represents across the United Kingdom. And I think what this agreement is about is about deepening the cooperation between Scotland and Wales as distinctive countries exercising our own responsibilities. But I suppose what they represent is a foretaste of the cooperation that would exist in different constitutional structures. I want to see I simply want Scotland to be viewed as an equal country equal with other countries and the necessity to work in partnership with other countries is a fundamental opportunity. So to me today is an absolutely landmark day in charting us on a new course which is about ensuring that the potential of from my perspective Scotland and I'm sure also from the perspective of the first minister of Wales an opportunity for Wales to thrive as an independent and distinctive community. And I look forward to advancing that agenda uh doing it in cooperation and collaboration with others. uh because the necessity uh to work in that collaborative spirit lies at the heart of all the work that we're taking forward. And if I could say that I I do believe this is a a day of historic significance. Um the result of the election in in May in Wales and the and the change of of governments here and the fact that we have first ministers from um the SNP in Scotland and and indeed um Jinfane in in Northern Ireland. These aren't just stories for our nations. This reflects a change in the story of the United Kingdom. And what we are able to to do is express me uh for the people of Wales and John for the people of Scotland. Our our wish that that we have a a new sense of need to reflect the ambitions of the people that that we uh that we serve. We want to work positively with the UK government, but I will always be focused on Wales. John will always be focused on Scotland. But I firmly believe that we are sending out a very strong message that there are common ground between there is common ground between us which helps us make the case on behalf of both of our countries for a new attitude from UK government towards the constituent parts of these islands. Colin uh of STV. >> Have you sought any advice from John Swinny on getting a budget? Uh I uh have been fortunate enough to have known John for some time and I've have I've have always made it my business to uh to take advice from somebody who has shown such effective uh leadership in in government in Scotland and it's leadership that I I very much admire. uh we uh in [clears throat] Welsh government now of course look forward to a uh a uh budget process here where it'll be about building cooperation building hopefully consensus across political parties because ultimately we are here to work for the people of Wales in all that we do and I very much take learning from the fact that the SNP has made it its business to uh work on behalf of all of the people of Scotland over the years >> and and I should just point out for for for for completeness that we still have to get a budget through next year and we don't command a majority either in parliament. >> We turn to Gareth Lewis at BBC Wales. >> Thank you. Hello again both. Um question for Mr. Swinny to start off with. Do you back the Welsh first minister's calls for reform of the Baret formula? And for Mr. Apiworth, what is your stance and how do you respond to to what Mr. Swinny is about to say? I think what is you know the financial arrangements across the United Kingdom vary um by constituent part of the United Kingdom and uh we all have to put forward the issues and the interests and the perspectives of each of our countries and that's exactly what we do in the negotiations and discussions that we take forward on financial issues. I'm sure that is exactly what the first minister of Wales will do in relation to the agenda for Wales. Obviously, um there are uh we we're at different stages of responsibilities. We have different um different financial arrangements because of the different powers that we have and it's important that um we each promote and assert the interests of our own communities. And that's exactly what I will continue to do for Scotland. M I make it my business always to stand up for Wales and make their case for uh financial fiscal fairness for Wales as as as John does for Scotland. The key thing is here is that neither of us believe that the question of the funding of Scotland or Wales or indeed regions of of England for that matter should be a zero someum game for the the Treasury. In standing up and making the case for Wales, I I never think in making the case against against Scotland. I wish John well in doing what he has to do as a first minister of Scotland, but there are fundamentals that need to be addressed by by the Treasury. Yes, we will make the case for more funding, fair funding according to need. But there are flexibilities that Scotland already have that we would dearly like to have in Wales. So calling for, you know, the arrangements that Scotland have right now as a minimum to be handed to Wales is something that is important to us. Again, an example there of the learning that can help the people of Wales working together as two governments. Hish Morrison from the National. >> Hi both. Um John [snorts] Swinny, Andy Bernham's laid down the gauntlet to you and said that effectively he can ignore demands for India F2 as long as there isn't clear consensus for one in Scotland. Can you set out what you're going to be doing to make those demands in ignorable for him and for uh Reapor? Um, do you think that today's declaration in the Cardiff agreement will boost support for independence in Wales? And do you think that Wales could beat Scotland to independence? >> I I I don't think Hamish that what you've said is is what the prime minister has actually said. What the prime minister has actually said is that the there there has to be demonstrable desire for a referendum on independence in Scotland. And I think that evidence is with us just now. I think it's evidenced by the fact that for you we have in the Scottish Parliament today the largest number of independent supporting members of the Scottish Parliament in the history of the Scottish Parliament. And in addition to that and in this respect there's there's a rather helpful uh graphic in a BBC article that I saw today which shows that in most of the recent polls there is that independence is the preferred constitutional option of the people of Scotland. So on the basis of what the prime minister said to the House of Commons uh last weddednesday which actually should not be a particularly exceptional comment that he made to the House of Commons on Wednesday. It should be an absolutely natural comment to respect to reflect the democratic wishes of the people of Scotland. And I think that is that's what we have just now Hamish. That's what I intend to continue to assert to ensure that we uh we we use the pressure that we can we have and can apply to make sure that the democratic wishes of the people of Scotland are respected by the United Kingdom government. And I think today's events are just another element of how we advance that argument. M from my point of view we celebrate uh today what we have in common and recognize at the same time that we have different stories as uh as nations. Both of us have similar ambitions for our nations but we um uh we are on uh different trajectories potentially or different time scales of trajectories. Scot the people of Scotland will decide on on their future. And the key thing for me is that the people of Wales will decide and must decide on the future of Wales. We can see the direction of of travel in Scotland and in Wales. The journeys might be happening at different paces, but you only look at the opinion polls this week and the and the sheer number the majority of young people who very much are enthused by the idea of becoming a normal independent uh nation and forging our way uh in the world in in that respect. And I think they will be excited not for the question of independence itself but for the question of our ambition for what we can achieve as a nation in that we are looking to work with another government that has a similarly high level of ambition for um for uh the people that it serves. In terms of a race, I'm not interested in a in a race between Wales and Scotland. I I trust the people of Wales uh on this one and that's that's behind my politics and the principles that that that underpin >> [snorts] >> uh my uh my thinking around our constitutional journey and to Adrian Masters ITV. >> Thank you. Are you using your offices of first minister as cover? Um, as first ministers, unlike being party leaders, you represent people who don't want to go on the journey that you're talking about. Is it an appropriate use of your office and your office's time to be here today promoting that? >> Uh, everything that my um government does is about seeking better outcomes for the people of Wales. It's about getting to grips with child poverty and the cost of living, which is why we have already uh agreed today to undertake work together on how we can uh assess what are the steps are that could be taken to help the people of Wales and Scotland on that key uh issue. Um we are interested in how we improve public services. We are interested in how our governments operate from day to day. Another very important part of that is our constitutional story and how we can learn from uh each other on our distinct uh journeys as nations. I think it's really important for the people of Wales that we look always outside building relationships with partners looking for opportunities for shared learning. And that is precisely what we're doing here today. I I don't think anyone would be at all surprised having listened to what I said during the election campaign that I've got an interest in advancing the arguments and the opportunities to deliver Scottish independence. So it lies at the heart of my government's program. It was at the heart of the election proposition I put to the the country and I won the election. So I'm simply advancing the mandate that was given to me by the public. We'll go to H Griffiths BBC. Um in response to this morning's meeting, we were told by Downing Street that Andy Bernham believes on focusing on easing the cost of living rather than constitutional debates. Has he got his priorities wrong? Can he really do both clear died at the moment? And what apart from the child poverty payments which is something in your manifesto being what new are you both doing to tackle the cost of living? >> So for example I I referred a second ago to you know early work that we want to be doing building on this particular agreement in identifying those areas of of common ground on what we think UK government could do differently around energy cost for example helping with the cost of living. You know there are measures that we can take in our own governments. John can talk about his you the child uh child care uh policy the most ambitious anywhere in the UK is a important part of that is around the cost of living and uh uh and uh and tackling uh poverty. So I agree with um the UK prime minister that we need to always be focused on helping people in particular through this you know this crisis that is still dripping far far too many families and communities around the cost of living. our constitutional um uh ideas absolutely around getting better outcomes for uh for the people that we serve. So all of these issues are intrinsically uh intertwined. This is about better outcomes for the people of Wales, which is what I have made clear hopefully is the core mission of the government that I lead. I I I don't see the the cost of living issues and the question of independence as in any way different issues. I think they're part of the same set of challenges that we're wrestling with in terms of the economic opportunities and prospects for people in our countries. And I think the the the judgments that have been made that [snorts] could be said to affect the independence argument, let's for you let's for example take the issue of Brexit, um has had a huge and damaging effect on the standards of living of people in Scotland, Wales, England, Northern Ireland. So the the the the issues that we are wrestling with don't have this sort of abstract concept of cost of living. It is a product of economic decision making economic and social decision-m within our society and I see it as inextricably linked in terms of the specific interventions to help people with the cost of living challenges. When I set out the government's program just a week past Tuesday, um I announced and we delivered it last Monday, the significant expansion of a two pound bus fair cap in Scotland which is designed across the west central the west central Scotland which will significantly reduce the travel costs of individuals, help with the cost of living, help to enable more people to access employment and we committed to doing that in our first 100 days and we did and we're now [snorts] going roll that out across the rest of the country. It's in place in the Highlands. In addition to that, we've just rolled out some further measures on the delivery of flexible child care to help families with the cost of child care and to provide more wraparound support to enable parents to get into employment. So, there are practical tangible things we're doing within our existing powers at the present moment. But in addition to that, there is obviously the context the context of the economic environment in which we're operating and which decisions taken by the UK government on many of these questions have an effect on the uh the the the standards of living of people in Scotland. >> Will Haywood. >> Uh thank you. Just a question for the first minister of Wales. >> Um thank you. Uh you say that Wales and Scotland are on different journeys. Uh the SMP is very clear that they want independence for Scotland. Uh, how is Wales's journey different? >> I think it's different in terms of its time scale. Um, Scotland already held a a referendum in in recent years. I I have argued the case that we're not in the place yet to hold a a referendum. that that doesn't take away from my firm belief that we have to if we want to truly unleash our potential as a nation um take um responsibility for you know designing our own uh destiny. Uh I have always believed that but as I've made clear many times why would we expect the the timing necessarily in Wales and Scotland to be uh to be the same? We have our own history. We have our own future. What this agreement does, of course, is find that common ground. Commonality on independence is our belief in our in the people that we serve. Our belief that we need uh to be working together to unlock our our potential. Um but but you know this is as much about um emphasizing the positives of working together as it is recognizing that actually we have our own stories to tell and that I am held accountable by the people of Wales. John is held accountable by the people of uh of Scotland. All I would add simply will is that um the you know my priority is to make sure that I turn into reality the outcome of the election and the parliament that has been elected and the parliament that's been elected in Scotland has the largest number of members within that parliament who support the holding of a referendum on independence and I want to make sure that happens during this parliamentary term. Bronwin, I can't see you. Bronwin Weatherby, uh, LBC. >> Thank you. Um, can I push you on on what Adrian asked? Actually, Mr. Swinny said he wasn't using his office as cover cuz he campaigned on independence and was given a mandate based on that. But you spent your campaign saying a referendum would be off the table for this term and that independence would not be a main focus. Is that not still the case? And what would you say to those who lend you their vote in May trusting your word on those points? >> Um, I I I I think most people who voted by the company know what where I stand on on independence. Um, they also understood what I meant was that this wasn't an election about, you know, taking independence forward in terms of a of a referendum. But I I invite you to read this uh this uh agreement. a an important um agreement I think in the story of Wales, Scotland and the UK. It is about getting better outcomes for uh for the people that we served. And I think what the people of Wales showed uh in the way that they voted in May was that they believed that the party that I lead, the government that I now lead um is serious about getting better outcomes for for Wales. the constitutional question whether it's now on taking control of policing and justice, taking control of our natural resources, the questions of standing up for Wales on uh on financial arrangements, fiscal uh fairness, HS2 rail and making sure that we get the money we owe. That is all wrapped up in what uh my government represents. And it is also a government that has made clear always that it would be outwardlooking, looking for best practice, looking for common ground with other partners. We happen to have in Scotland a partner that we've long had a good relationship with and that I am determined to build upon in the in the coming years that involves the practical questions around public services, around poverty, around the cost of living. And absolutely intertwined in that is that question of do we have the powers to take the decisions that we have in all those uh areas. That's what this is about. That has always been my politics. >> I think the only point I would add is that there is an opportunity for us all to to to essentially reflect on what's the central point in this debate which is about the right of self-determination for people in our countries. And that's the point for me which is the one that is inescapable in all of this discussion. And the people of Wales have as much right to determine their own future as the people of Scotland have to determine theirs. And I simply look to have that respected by the UK government. >> It's a pretty fundamental principle for us both. Um Simeon from the FT. >> Thank you. Um you know speaking of you know Berm's devolution agenda with with respect to that have you got any individual common demands in terms of new economic powers that you would like to see devolved to your administrations. Thank you. >> I I have spoken about you know the the the positive approach that I will uh take to the new UK prime minister in knowing that he understands the power of of devolution to Manchester. that's that's his context and and he uh I I've spoken with him about how I [snorts] want him to understand what devolution means to Wales because it's really important that a UK prime minister recognizes the difference between between a region of England and a nation be that Wales or or or Scotland. You economically we um we are busy as a Welsh government now setting up a new development agency for for Wales because we need new thinking on on the Welsh economy. We've talked about having the productivity gap with the rest of the UK. We need the tools. We need the fiscal tools from uh from UK government. We need, you know, the fair funding needed. We need the HS2 consequentials so that we can invest in the kind of infrastructure that drives better productivity, that drives a stronger economy. There's a host of matters that we have made clear are on our agenda as a as a Welsh uh government. But we move towards in the coming weeks a economic council uh where we as as first ministers will come together with the UK prime minister. We will be looking in the context of this agreement on highlighting those areas of commonality and they are absolutely about making sure that we have the powers right here that we are empowered through our parliaments and our governments to make solid decisions on the economy on behalf of the people that we serve. whilst of course expressing that I want communities to feel empowered. I I'm always a communities focused uh politician, but the devolution plans for for England do not uh translate directly uh into into something applicable for Wales and neither should they because we have our own government that wants to empower communities and wants the powers to do so for the sake of the Welsh economy. Um the prime minister um made a for me fundamentally reassuring and very very important commitment to me when he came when we spoke on the phone on the evening sorry the morning after he was elected as prime minister h and then when he came to see me in the first week in office that whilst he has a very clear agenda about devolution in relation to England he would respect protect the settlement in Scotland and work with us. He wouldn't legislate over our heads in relation to a devolution agenda. And I very much welcome that commitment that the prime minister gave me. He gave the same commitment to Rene as well. And I think it's a really important commitment about respect. I think the flip side of that also is that um I think that commitment comes out of respect for the devolved settlement. So therefore legislative measures like the internal market act to me run contrary to the spirit of the devolution settlement. So I hope the prime minister might reflect on the you know the inappropriateness of having measures like the internal market act. But what the prime minister also said and this is will be part of some of the ongoing discussion that we have is that he is open to considering how further devolution of responsibilities to the Scottish Parliament and potentially onward to other public authorities in Scotland especially local authorities might help the growth agenda and I'm very very keen to engage on that question. Now some of the areas where that could be helpful um will be in relation to migration where we know that in Scotland we have a challenge about the size of our working age population. Greater flexibilities on migration would help us in that respect. International students being able to stay in Scotland for longer. For example, 20 years ago, we had the fresh talent initiative which allowed international students to stay in Scotland for longer um with the consent of the UK government. That would help our growth agenda. There are fiscal flexibilities that would help us to attract further investment into Scotland which could be deployed to us. There are measures in employment support and resources that go with that that would help us to complete some of the propositions that we put forward around about trying to activate people who are economically inactive but to get into the labor market and these are powers held by the UK government. So I I'm involved in a very engaged process with a number of stakeholders in Scotland about some of these issues which would be resolved within the existing constitutional arrangements if the devolution agenda goes further than in the prime minister's mind than it currently does and that's obviously something that we will engage constructively with the UK government to take forward. >> Uh thank you Williams TV. Um, the SNP and Shinfane are each demanding a referendum. You've ruled one out. If Westminster's days are numbered, as you put it today, why aren't you demanding one for Wales? Isn't it just because you don't think you'll win? >> I I I struggle sometimes to to to think why why um it it's difficult to understand that we are on different different journeys. I and I I am quite open in that I don't think now quite is the is the time to do it. The direction of travel is very very clear. We have now up to 45 years old, you know, age group after age group saying, "Yes, we want Wales to be independent as as I do." But I still firmly believe that the time scale is set by the people of Wales. I trust the people of Wales to set that that timeline. As a political leader, what I want to do is to use my influence as much as I can to persuade people to engage with the questions of what kind of future we could have as a as an outwardlooking uh independent uh nation. That is an ongoing uh process. Scotland is at its uh stage in in in that journey. Wales is at ours. I have no question about the direction of of travel, but I think it is is healthy [laughter] and and healthy in in the context of of this agreement for there to be recognition that we have different stories and different timelines, but very much a shared ambition. Uh I think uh let's go to Dan Davis, BBC, Mr. Swinnie, do you think or what impact do you think your visit here today and these agreements will have on politics in Wales? Could you be furthering the course, the cause of Welsh independence? SNP. My um you know the purpose of of my visit has been to um earlier on today draw together cooperation amongst three political parties that um share a a perspective around the constitutional question and believe fundamentally in the right of their peoples to decide their own future. I you know I make no judgment on that issue in Wales. I'm simply here as an advocate of the the power of self-determination and the right of self-determination for um the the people of Scotland and uh as expressed by the first minister of Wales for the people of Wales and in relation to the Cardiff agreement that we've signed this afternoon um my hope is that that leads to good and substantive cooperation between our two governments that helps to enhance the lives of people in Scotland and Wales and that as a consequence the the merits and the benefits of self-government are ever more visible to to to people in the the country that I lead and in the country that the first minister leads My August. for gander. for good afternoon. Um as you mentioned uh Ten uh you will be meeting again both of you in the National Economic um council with Andy Burnham. Um regarding that because there have been reports that Andy Burnham could look to directly send funding into local authorities or regional authorities perhaps an indication of his the way he views evolution through sort of the English prism. Um, if that was the case, would you both um actively reject that um pot of money if it if it circumnavigated Welsh government and Scottish government? >> I I it it's a good way of putting uh the question. It's about looking at the evolution in Wales from a from an English uh perspective through an English uh lens. uh as the first minister of Scotland has said uh previously today, we have both been given uh assurance uh directly by the UK prime minister that there will be no uh attempt to bypass devolution to undermine either the Senate or Welsh government. I will take uh him at his word. That means uh setting the basis for positive discussions about how we can empower uh Wales and we'll be taking arguments forward to the economic council about how we believe that could happen in a Welsh context from my point of view and in a Scottish context from Johns. >> Um the prime minister said he won't do that. So I'm going to take him at his word on that. >> Um and finally, Antelo Guerrera from La Republica. Hello. Uh, thank you very much for for this. Um, um, a question each u, Mr. Swini, on Europe, what is the main motivation for Scotland to rejoin the EU? Is it just the economy? And do you think that EU will be happy to welcome you as an independent country? And for Mr. Y um has the presence in the down street of Andy Bernham who is a northerner who has constitently uh fought against the concentration of power and money in in London in fact emboldened the independence of you all in recent months. Thank you. Thank you John. And on the the European question, you know, there's a very there's a number of different aspects to this, not least of which is the very democratic question that Scotland voted emphatically to remain the European Union and was dragged out um against our will. The benefits of taking part are significant in relation to economic opportunity and to trade collaboration. Um there are countless organizations in Scotland that have essentially changed their focus because they the quite simply the obstacles to trade are too significant to to to to to trade and there are obviously other um advantages. I talked in one of my earlier answers about migration and international students whereby we have benefited very significantly from the movement of individuals who've been able to uh provide to contribute to the Scottish economy as just one example. So I think there's a there's a whole variety of different areas where I think collaboration would be significant not least and also you know we we we we we have that ability to pursue um you know research endeavors with a number of our higher education institutions which is a significant opportunity for the development of new business opportunities. If I might just give a little sentence in relation to your question to uh to to to rene I I just think there is a logic in the prime minister's view about the concentration of power in white hall and the inadequacy of you know he said he's m he's made comments like Westminster isn't working well I I agree with them I have come to that conclusion a long time ago so I think there is a helpful direction of thinking in what the prime minister is saying about the the need to make sure that power is vested close to people where they live their lives and that to me is a strong argument for Scottish independence. >> I'll comment on the European question too. I am firmly pro- European and firmly believe that the vote 10 uh years ago was damaging to the interests of Wales. And I will make this point that when it comes to cooperation between uh Welsh government and Scottish government, a shared view on how closer integration uh with the European Union is in the interests of the people that we serve is something that we will want to pursue as part of this uh of this agreement. On the question of um the new UK uh prime minister's uh view of decentralizing power, I I do take um a positivity from the fact that we have a prime minister that talks the language of wanting to uh bring power closer to uh the people and I genuinely believe we can we can build uh on that. I [snorts] think what we uh need to uh see happening is a deepening understanding of uh the prime minister on what devolution means in the context of nations like ours and it is very different to English uh regions. So there is something that we can build upon and as John said um to hear um a UK prime minister say uh that Westminster isn't working which is is something that I have said for a very very long time suggest that we might in some ways have common ground on on finding uh the solution to getting it working. To me, of course, ultimately I want us to have that uh redesign of the relationship between us in these islands, which I think would be in the interests of all of us uh in these uh in these islands. Can I thank you for your uh questions and thank you to the first minister of Scotland uh for being with us uh today and uh have a good rest of your day. Thank you.