Can You Actually Evangelize on the Internet? | Catholic Creator Panel

I often say to myself when I'm watching my favorite content creators on YouTube, I think it would be so much fun if I were like actual friends, like in real life where we could get together and hang out and talk. And that's what is happening today. My dream has come true. We're here at the Defending the Faith Conference at Franciscan University of Steenville. We've had an amazing time and I'm sitting here with my good friends Anna Munley, Emily Denini, and Mr. Brian Holdsworth. My name is Keith Nester and we are going to have an incredible conversation today about evangelizing in the digital age which is something that each of us do to a certain degree. Um but I think before we start let's officially maybe each person can share a little bit about what you actually do in case people don't know who you are or what you do. >> How about that? >> No. No, please. Ladies, I >> I'll go ahead. I'll go ahead. Hi, I my name is Emily Dinany and I run a social media page I guess primarily on Tik Tok and Instagram which is mostly aimed at like fellow Gen Z like myself. Um so a lot of like short form content like one to five minutes um of filming and I do a lot of apologetics content. So really just um defending the faith um you know responding to Protestant objections to the church. I am a convert myself. I converted to the church when I was 17. So, um, yeah, I kind of thought, well, if I converted because of something I saw online, then other people can probably have that same experience. So, that's, um, kind of my mission on the internet. Um, yeah. >> Awesome. >> I feel like any three syllable name has to have an emphasized syllable, but Emily's just going with diny. [laughter] >> I thought it was the middle syllable. >> Yeah. Yeah. It's not. It's not. >> I still don't know what it is, to be honest. I'm only freshly married, so we're My husband and I are still figuring it out to be honest. >> Did you hyphenate in between syllables? >> Yeah, maybe. >> I'm Brian Holdsworth and uh I have a YouTube channel that I kind of stumbled my way into doing uh a background in like marketing and branding and graphic design and wanted to learn videography. So, I started filming things and publishing it expecting nobody to watch it and then people started watching it. And so, now I'm committed. I'm I'm doing that. So much to my my surprise and uh I'm very blessed to have people tune in and it's mostly commentaries that are Catholic related philosophy, theology, culture. Culture is kind of the the center of gravity that everything orbits around. But uh that's that's what I do. Yeah. >> I'm Anna Munley and I reverted back to the faith a couple years ago. And in doing so, I found this renewed joy and love for our faith. I was discovering all sorts of new things and I figured if I didn't know these things as somebody who grew up in the faith was a cradle Catholic maybe other people didn't and I just kind of much like Brian just kind of started posting not really thinking much of anything and it's turned into something beyond me. So yeah, I post on YouTube and Instagram I guess and wherever you can find me. Um [clears throat] but that's that's me. >> Awesome. Well, my name is Keith Nester, if I didn't say that already, and I make content primarily on YouTube. I'm a convert to the faith. Was a pastor for um many, many years, and mostly on YouTube, but I do some a little bit of things on Instagram. And I just love sharing my faith with people. I love talking about the Catholic faith. It's it's just a joy to me uh to and to get to be with these amazing creators here who are now I consider my friends. It's it's just an honor. But I want to ask you guys a couple questions if you don't mind about your journey into this world. >> What were some things that you had to overcome in order to get yourself comfortable with putting a camera in front of yourself and talking to the masses? >> That's a good question. I I don't want to jump in and answer this question ahead of anybody else, but I do want to also say because I already feel awkward about this, but for those of you who are just watching this on video, there's an audience behind us here, too. So, we're we should be talking to each other, but we're also like talking in this direction, not because we're being rude to each other, but I don't know, maybe the people want to just give a little shout to let everybody There you go. So, that's why we're just like looking off into the space when we should be looking at each other a little bit. Um but so okay to your question um that was a a big obstacle for me because so I I started doing videography because I ran a branding business and I had clients who were saying hey can you make videos for us and so I bought all the gear and watched the tutorials on YouTube and and you know had a little bit of a few clients and a few projects but um I wanted to be doing evangelistic stuff or I wanted to be the guy the producer behind the scenes And I wanted to be facilitating something like another word on fire in my dascese. There was a priest in my dascese who was like the preacher guy who I was friends with and we would go for lunch together and like blue sky dream about you know get you in front of a camera and we'll we'll we'll we'll brand this. We'll come up with an episode idea and and a hook and we'll make it great. He'd get really excited but then he would get busy with his priestly duties and not really follow through. And so I had like tripods and lights and everything set up. And in Canada at the time, we were going through, this is generous, but I will say the the debate around euthanasia and assisted suicide, but it really wasn't a debate. It was entirely one-sided. Our public broadcaster, um the CBC, um they would they would cover it, but not in a in a balanced way. They would have experts on who were pro um maid or dying with dignity, right? They would use that kind of language. And so I was out on my lunch break one day and I was listening to this on CBC radio them talking about this and I was so frustrated that they didn't have anybody giving the counter arguments. And so I got back to my office and the camera was there and I literally just like just for the sake of of the catharsis of ranting about it so I could at least hear somebody say the counter arguments, I sat down and I flipped on the camera and I just like let the camera have it for a good 20 minutes. And afterwards I felt really great. But then I was like, you know, that actually wasn't that bad. And I watched it back and I thought, huh, okay, if I tighten that up and maybe script it out a little bit and get a little more experience, maybe I this can be the means that I can practice videography and learn this discipline before I can have my Bishop Baron subject that I can film videos with. And so I continued to do that and I started a YouTube channel just to maintain the regimen to keep myself accountable to like a routine of posting fully expecting nobody to watch it. you know, you like the algorithm gives you the mercy 100 views or whatever. And I thought, okay, that's fine because I just want to be able to practice this. And then all of a sudden, people started tuning in and I had to reevaluate. Oh, so there's actually some potential to this and maybe I'm being called to do this more. So, so I had to get angry in order to overcome [laughter] >> that. Yeah. Anger. >> That is Brian's advice. >> Yeah. Whatever you do. Well, I think it sounds like what you're saying is you had to overcome this feeling that there was nobody else doing what you were doing. >> Yeah. Yeah. Well, and and at the time really Word on Fire was kind of and Catholic Answers to a certain degree, but Word on Fire was really the one who had broken into that space, especially on YouTube. I remember watching at the time Father Robert Baron for the longest time and he would get like, you know, 5,000 views, 6,000 views maybe, but like all of the engagement was hostile. So the like to dislike ratio was almost it was like 90% dislike and all the comments were negative. And he was in there interacting with like it was all atheists at the time. It was the new atheism was the big thing at the time, right? And so a lot of us Catholics were looking at that space thinking like good for you. like I don't want to enter into that like that's brutal, right? But he he was on that vanguard and made that possible I think for the rest of us to to warm up to the idea and to have the courage to actually step forward and do it. So, so yeah, I there was a lot of disincentives I would say to take that chance, especially for someone like me who did I didn't think of myself as the the kind of person who could do it, you know, intellectually or um or or or just in terms of the formation. I didn't I didn't feel confident doing that. So, I had to get angry. I had to lose my cool. And then people thought that was interesting, I guess. Fun fact, when I was this is a here here's you can tell me true or false. When I was two years old, I was in commercials on television. >> I totally believe that. >> Yeah, it's actually it's it's actually true. I was in a Tropicana orange juice commercial and probably something I think it was something else like a kids like crib or something. But um I have an identical twin sister and most people don't know that about me. Um she's like the total opposite of me. She's not Catholic. Um, but anyway, apparently in, you know, the United States, you can only legally have kids on camera for a certain number of time, but if they're identical twins, you get double time. Um, so anyway, I was I was on I was on TV, so maybe that's where it all began. I just like my parents forced me in front of the camera and I just, you know, never left. >> You got addicted, right? >> Exactly. Yeah. Like I was just born for the No, I'm just kidding. I'm definitely not. But honestly, I wasn't really freaked out by filming stuff. What made me more uncomfortable was doing live streams because that's how I actually built my following was I would just go on live streams and ask people, okay, like what are your objections to the Catholic faith? Um, let's have a discussion. And there would be when I first started out, I was like five people. So, man, that was really awkward cuz I was just talking to myself cuz you know those five people, they're not like commenting the whole time. So, it was just me having a conversation like alone in my bedroom. And yeah, it was that I think that was the most awkward and uncomfortable thing. Um because at least in a video you don't you don't have to see other people not not responding to you. You just post it and you're done with it. So >> fun fact, the first time I came across Emily's content was maybe about a year two years ago and it was alive. I was scrolling on TikTok and I saw her on um she was live and I clicked in and she was on her treadmill and the phone was like propped up and she's like walking walking walking walking and so it was about I think the immaculate conception. She had no notes in front of you could tell she was just getting in a workout going on TikTok live and someone was like uh you know explain the immaculate conception. She's like well in Luke D. She's like sweating and she's like having a great time. And I was like, "This girl's a monster. I don't understand how someone can just plop it up and just spit it off." And she was, that was my first interaction. I told her yesterday, I was like, "When I first came across your stuff, I was like, "This girl's a machine. She needs to be debating. She's insane. Look at her just going and like her workout just da." So, >> good job. [laughter] Well, >> what about you, Anna? What's something that you had to to overcome in order to be willing to do what you do? >> Well, uh I I that's a great question. Um I'm a planner, but I didn't plan to do the content that I'm doing. I just kind of started to I think what I had to overcome is as I saw some traction and I saw the comments and you know people tuning in and following along my need for control for the algorithm the comment section what people were thinking. I needed to kind of get over that uh and really approach it in the most charitable way, which for me, I kind of touched upon this last night at the panel, but for me it was just what do I want to be known for? Because that I can control. I can control how I respond, but I cannot control how people take it. I can't control what they say about me. I can't control, you know, it's out of your control. So for me it was getting it was getting over not having control and realizing what I do have control over and then fine-tuning that to for the bigger purpose of you know bringing people closer to Christ in his church. >> That's interesting. You know I think that one of those things with control is we we can try to control certain things that happen with content but once it gets out there then you have no control which can sometimes be frustrating, right? because you think that okay I'm going to do this it's going to lead to this and this is how people will respond and sometimes it doesn't work out that way does it >> never does >> so let me ask you another question um what would you say right now is the biggest challenge that you're facing in what you're doing with your digital evangelization >> honestly I was never a big social media person like growing up Um, so it's just being on social media in general. Like it's it's truly like it is a cross in a lot of ways. Like I wish I could be like my husband and just like be completely off the grid and off the internet. Uh, but I can't. Um, so yeah, I have actually this like nice little tool. It's called br the brick. I don't know if you guys anyone has heard of it, but you basically tap your phone to it and it it can limit any app you want and then you have to like physically bring your phone over to it and and scan it in order for those apps to be unlocked. So that's helped me to like really balance my work and my personal life because I have to be on social media for a living in general. So I can't just get off of it and delete it from my phone. Um, so I think that's just my biggest struggle is like having the apps on my phone. Um, and having to be so immersed in that world when like I wish I could just be offline because I think there's just another dynamic that you get when you're talking to people face to face and interacting with them that the internet does not provide and it can be a very vicious place and addictive place. I mean to be honest. So yeah. >> How >> about you Brian? What's a challenge right now in that you're trying to deal with? >> Probably competing interests. So for anybody who cares to be an evangelist or cares to persuade people in any any meaningful way. And we were talking a little bit about like street evangelization or doortodoor stuff. So maybe we can we can touch on that a little bit more. But when I first started my channel, I was free to talk about anything I wanted because there was really no consequence to it. the um it was the ends in mind were more you know just practicing this this discipline of of videography and the the sort of side disciplines that come along with that that were related to my field. Um but also just my my passion for whatever subject was was coming up. It wasn't even necessarily about my faith at first, but the longer I did it, the more I realized that well if the the deepest well I can draw from is is my faith. That's the thing I can talk the longest about. So it became more about that. But that freedom made it possible for me to see the true ends in whatever I was talking about um clearly and to be merely motivated by that. And those ends being the people on the other side who I wanted to persuade and to draw to the truth, right? Um but that that comes with other incentives like well wouldn't it be better if you could reach more people and persuade more people, right? And so as your channel grows and as your audience grows that starts to become an interest, right? not just the persuasion side but well I also have to maintain an audience and well the algorithm is a factor in that and so we were talk I was talking about with Greg about this the other day is um and I think maybe Keith you were part of that or or it was Anna but we were talking about um like do subscriptions on on YouTube mean anything anymore right and does it mean anything to have 200,000 uh or or even 10,000 if you can get the same amount of views all the time and the answer is probably no subs don't really mean anything anymore more. It's all entirely about the momentum. How many people watched the last thing you you put out there? And and based on that, the next thing you put out will probably get similar treatment from the algorithm. And it it becomes that becomes the the thing that you start to make your decisions around rather than what's the topic I'm going to choose for this week because it's important that people know about this as opposed to what's the thing that people are going to click on so that I can maintain that momentum because if I don't maintain that momentum I'm going to be talking to nobody at the end of the day and I'm going to be persuading nobody. So these kinds of competing interests become these scales that you have to balance and negotiate while still maintaining integrity and again the ends in view um without compromising those ends too much. And that's that's a really difficult thing to discern on on an ongoing basis. I find >> I think that's something that every content creator deals with. >> Yeah. thinking like, okay, balancing that tension between what I feel passionate about or what I'm interested in, what I think and what I want to say, but then you always have that nagging little voice in the back of your mind. Is anybody going to care? >> Yeah. >> And if you think to yourself, no, [clears throat] they're not going to, then you have a really interesting question on your mind, >> right? >> Am I going to do it anyway? >> Sure. >> So, um, what about you? on it. What's What's your biggest challenge right now? >> Well, my my biggest challenge now is the same that it was since Lent, which is my own spiritual life. My social media has gotten in the way. It's almost hindering, if I let it, my spiritual life. >> When I first started, I'm fairly newer, so it's been about a year and a half. Before I started posting anything online, I had this, you know, robust prayer life, rosary three times a day. You know, the the things that I would do that would feed my faith or feed my relationship. And then as I started posting, it's very easy for it was very easy. Now I recognize it. So, uh it's a work in progress, guys. But very easy for me to do the research for a video, feel inspired to do something, post it, edit, engage with people, and then think, "Oh, I prayed today or I did my thing today. I looked at the scripture today. I read whatever today during Lent." I knew that I was in a very dry place in my faith. And when I really reflected on it, it was, well, you're spending so much time prepping and you're spending so much time doing this. My intention was always to help people to bring uh light to the truth that is our Catholic faith. But in the process of doing that, I'm jeopardizing my own soul, my own prayer life, my own relationship. And that was a very difficult realization for me to have. So that's the struggle that I'm still kind of working through is that balance of I don't want to jeopardize my own soul for the sake of leading other souls to Christ because then what good is that? So, I'm find working my way through it. But the content you consume, the content you create, it is not a replacement for your own prayer life. It is not a replacement for diving into scripture. You could listen to whatever it is. Even if it's a video about how to read the Bible or going into scripture or a scripture verse, a Bible study, that does not replace what you need to be doing in your own prayer life. >> So, pray for me. I think it's very tempting in general to avoid the interior life and really like taking an inward look into your soul because when you do that it's pretty terrifying most the time, right? And so it's really easy in general to just, you know, say, I'm going to read this book about, you know, theology and you're learning about God, but you're not really connecting with God or being in his presence and just resting in his presence. Um, and so I don't think anybody is exempt from that. And so I'm I'm glad that you spoke about that, Anna, because I fell into that trap myself for a long time. Um it's very difficult, but um yeah, I think it's important to to keep building that interior life and to not be not to be afraid of looking inward um and trusting that the Lord the Lord has got you, you know, no matter what you find in yourself that might be ugly or scary. I remember in the early days going back to like that time where Word on Fire was the only crew out there and Bishop Baron really the only kind of big name that was out there doing this and I remember seeing he this might have been in a documentary or it might have just been published on their channel but he went to Rome. there might have been a consistry or something going on in Roman time because he spoke to a group of cardinals about this online evangelistic work that he was doing and it was um it was novel and new and innovative at the time again because there wasn't many people doing it and so he was sharing the need and he was trying to persuade you know these these highranking church prelets about the need for us to be investing our resources our manpower into doing this kind of work and I remember thinking Yeah, like I was watching this sort of like this is obvious. Absolutely. He's doing amazing work. And then there was this one quite elderly cardinal. I think he was Italian. He had a bit of an accent and he sort of like at the end of the presentation he raised his hand very humbly and and just sort of looked at the ground and he he objected and he and I don't remember what his particular objection was but he just said something like I think we need to be a little more cautious about this and not all of the um the the boundaries of of of this space have been defined or the implications of this kind of work or this effort or even this technology has has really been revealed to us. So yes, I can understand your points. He's speaking to at the time Father Robert Baron and saying, "I can understand your enthusiasm for this, but I think that there should be some some hesitation." And I remember getting really angry angry like on the other side. I get angry a lot apparently, but I was I was I was sort of frustrated. I was like, "No, why this? Why this this resistance? Why this stubbornness? This is the new public square. We need to be going out there and evangelizing." And you know, some maybe 10, 15 years later, after being in it quite deep myself in those trenches, I'm looking back thinking like maybe we should have listened to that that cardinal a little bit more because I I I personally I jumped in thinking that what could be more obvious than that we have to be using this technology and this medium to evangelize. But with the way that social media has gone since then and the way that this technology and the effects that it has been having on people that have been raised with this technology, I really kind of second guess that a little bit. And so I'm curious to find out from you guys like where's where's your assessment of of this? Can we exploit the landscape of social media and and media in general to produce a greater good or are there are there so many risks inherent in this for us personally? Anna, you've already kind of referred to that. Um, and also for our audience who could be exploited by the apps that they have to use in order to access this content like how what how do you guys assess that? Yeah, I think my fear is that if we focus too much on the online world that we forget how effective in-person evangelization and just connection is. Um, and so I I think I would I don't want to I think your question is great, but I would love to talk about later like what we do, you know, in person as well to kind of use our gifts and not just on the internet because I think, you know, I'm very weary of people that say like they're they're just going to dedicate their time to just doing something on the internet. Um, and then like refuse to ever serve in their parish, refuse to ever um, you know, kind of extend those same gifts to their children or to their family life. Um, and I think that we need to have kind of a a holistic way um of approaching this instead of like I'm just going to be confined to this one particular space. Um, because there's temptations with being on the internet like you know having more fame, not having to deal with somebody confronting you face to face. Um, which can be scary, but also those those confrontations can be the most fruitful sometimes when you actually have somebody facing you um and and talking directly to you. Um, so I think that the internet can certainly be used for good. I think it's good that we're on that space because otherwise it would be dominated by other voices and I think we need to have a response rather than just responding in silence which in itself is still a response. Um and so good point. >> Yeah, I think it's good that we're on that space but I would really encourage people. I am very happy if no one ever knows who I am because they don't have social media on their phone. I think that that's probably they're living a a much better deeper spiritual life than I probably do. Um, so yeah, I would advocate, you know, I think social media has its time and its place, but I would encourage people, you know, okay, you found your faith, you've you've been able to get some great resources. Okay, get offline now. Um, now you know where to look. Now you know what to read and where to go. U, but you don't need to stay on the internet in order to to find all of those same things. >> Yeah, I think that there are things about the internet that are good and bad. And I think that often times we just think about the things that are bad. But when it comes to our content, we have to ask ourselves, how can we be salt and light to that world? What are we bringing to that world? What would it take for us to have a different view of the internet or social media to where we said, "Man, I wish that person had this app. This would really help them in their spiritual life. I wish that they were on this channel or I wish they had this thing like is what we're bringing to it so good that it can overcome the darkness. >> And I think that's something that we have to think about and take very seriously. When I was in uh ministry, we used to ask ourselves a question about the church that we were building. This is back when I was a Protestant. And one of the and and I've asked myself this question as a content creator. If I stop doing what I'm doing, who would miss it? >> And I don't mean like, oh, I I like that funny video or this or that. I mean like whose spiritual needs would not be met >> if I wasn't doing what I'm doing, >> which in one sense can make you have like this inflated self self-importance. But we have to always remember we're not supposed to be pointing people to ourselves. If you're just doing that, the answer is, well, nobody really. But I think what that's kind of helped me to think about is am is the stuff I'm creating already just rehashing the same stuff because that when I think about what's toxic about the internet, that's what I think about. I think it's just this repeated mantra over and over and over of by this you're not good enough, you need this thing or your spouse is this or >> or some viral intrigue of like personality conflict or something like that. >> Exactly. >> And if we don't play into that, if we say to ourselves, hey, all right, I want to I want to make something that can shine light into that world, >> then, you know, maybe we're getting somewhere. But that takes a lot of discipline, I think, because I don't know about you guys, but what I've often noticed is this. The things that I do that I think nail that are the least viewed things that I do. >> Yeah. >> Which is sometimes frustrating. >> Yes. >> I I have a tendency to jinx whatever my last video was by coming home after a day of, you know, working on something and then saying to my wife, I think that's one of the most important videos I've ever done. And as soon as she says, "Don't say that." As soon as I say that, it's going to be it's going to be nobody's going to watch it. But I mean, that's the thing. I I see I see the the metrics on the other side of that. But for all I know, the Lord's going to use that in some meaningful way for a handful of souls that I won't know about, but but God willing, you know, he will use that. So, >> yeah, I can I feel that >> I have a little bit of a these are all very well-balanced answers, and I'm more on the no, it's our duty. Yeah, it's our literal responsibility to be on the internet. Uh much like Emily said, if we are not on there, someone will take up that space. >> Now, I think it takes an incredible amount of discipline to do all sorts of evangelization in person, uh you know, online, volunteer, [clears throat] uh all sorts of stuff. It takes a lot of self-discipline. It takes a lot of uh motivation like self uh what's the word I'm looking for? Like you have to do it. You have to actually put in ambition. Thank you. Uh but I do think and and not everyone is called to evangelize online, evangelize in person. You do it through witness. You can do it through how you serve others. You can do it through volunteering online, in person, whatever. Uh, but I think it is our duty to be on there and um much like you were kind of talking about when like when you log into YouTube when you're creating content, YouTube will tell you, oh video 9 out of 10 less subscribers are viewing this >> and now with an AI chatbot that says here's where you went wrong on that one. >> Do you want to know when people stopped watching? No, I don't. I don't. Um, >> and so immediately you log in and that's what social media is. It's it's meant to keep you on. It's meant to have you really drive your content towards what they're telling you it should be. And so, you know, you log in and you see that and then you're like, "Oh, man. No one no one likes my Mary video. Oh, and then you open the comments and it's, you know, 10 comments. This is exactly what I needed. This explains this. I was just thinking about this." And so, you have to be mindful of that. Um, >> but yeah, back to the original question. I think it's it's our duty. We have a right and we have a responsibility to evangelize, to spread the good news. And whatever that may look like for you is how you need to pursue it. So again, that could just be if you have a devotion to the scapular. Maybe that's just wearing it. And if someone asks, you're ready. You know about it. You're ready to share about it. Maybe it's volunteering. Maybe it's online. Um and yeah, I just think we need to be out there. >> Can I follow that up? Do you guys mind if I have a follow-up question? Okay. Do you think this maybe it's a two-parter. Do you think that the space is a little bit saturated? >> Totally. >> And then by extension, [laughter] >> sorry, >> no hesitation. >> Yes. >> Yes. And you are the problem. No, um, okay. Because we've had already in the short time that this has become more of a popular discipline, we've had some people fall in disgrace and and with much publicity, right? And that's scandalous, right? There are people who who may have come into the church because and I I get told this often, right? Even at this conference, people come and shake my hand and say, "You had a big role in my coming into the church." Right? So imagine you part of your your faith identity is attached to particular personalities. Um and then that person goes down in a scandal, right? What's that going to do to the vulnerability of these these sort of fledgling Catholics, right? Um, so my question is maybe to prevent that or or just to do you think we should have standards? Um, >> yeah. >> And and how how does that get governed? >> I think what you're really asking is should there be accountability somewhere? >> Yeah. You know, because if you have >> both both on both ends, so like accountability, but also like prerequisites to like >> and I I logistically there's no real way I can think of to do this, but is there some way to self- select maybe or >> you will know them by their fruits? Literally, that's to me that's like I feel like I'm talking about the same stuff that I mentioned yesterday. Sorry guys. But it it to me it's up to the the person consuming the content. I think it's it falls on their shoulders because they you know if I'm following someone who is maybe not doing following church teaching or maybe the way that they are explaining the faith is not with charity and love me following them that is me supporting their message >> how they evangelize to others are they hurting others are they helping others so it there's a responsibility there much like how for us there's a responsibility on our shoulders to make sure that we are taking care of our spiritual life because these souls are watching >> what we're doing. So you can't give into the rage bait. You can't give into the algorithm because you're you've put yourself in the in that in those shoes of these people are watching you. They're almost depending on you for whatever it is and entertainment or some sort of like small formation. So I think it falls on on both people. Um but yeah, if again it's just for me the I don't know about prerequisites. I don't I wouldn't much like you. I don't know what that would look like. >> Uh but I do think it takes a lot of discernment for who you're going to follow. Giving a follow is not some little fru like just follow along. It does support their work. So I think it takes a lot of intention with that. Um and a lot of care and thought, careful consideration. I I had people after I don't want to name names here, but after a particular person was caught in unour behavior, I had people in the comments on my videos saying like, "Why aren't you talking about this? Why aren't you why didn't you hold this person accountable?" And I'm sort of like because that's not what my channel's about. I'm not TMZ Catholic, right? Like I I want to focus on teaching and evangelizing. But that does raise a question. Do we have a responsibility as people who are sort of established in the space to hold other people accountable or to even expose? Like that seems like detraction to me on the face of it, but I don't know. What do you guys think? >> Yeah. Um I I have a lot I I mean I'm not a theologian so I'm just going to preface my answer by that. Um however, I think that people tend to quote that verse from Matthew. You know, if your brother sins against you, go to him privately. Okay, but that's about your brother sitting against you in a personal manner. So when somebody is publicly scandalizing others by publicly engaging in something or saying something that's wrong and that's going to lead souls um you know to spiral in scrupulosity or to even believe something that's that's going to send them, you know, down the wrong path, then I think I don't think it's detraction at all um to address that publicly. Obviously, you have to do that with prudence and charity, but yeah. And I I just think in general um I don't know. I'm a big advocate for like if people just got off social media, I think the world in large would be a better place. And I know that sounds so like hypocritical, but like just look at the studies. Like it's very clear. There's a lot of people that are addicted. It's literally like I mean eroding their brain. Like they they um the the rate for like Alzheimer's and just like people who are not able to even have an attention span anymore has declined rapidly. um the reading levels of Gen Z. Um it's it's insane. And so I think um it's almost like you know I'm evangelizing in Vegas or something. That's how I feel like I mean somebody has to be there I guess to help those sinners but like good >> analogy. [laughter] Not that people on social media are sinners. However, I think like it involves like prudence to be like okay I'm in this space that can be dangerous. Um and yet you know I don't want people to stay in this space though personally. Like I want people to get offline. I want them to connect with others in person. I want them to serve um the homeless, to serve their parish community, to serve their families better. Um I think the world would be a better place if people's screen times were a lot lower and they were spending more time with other people. Um yeah, so I would I if you guys have other things to add, I would love to hear that. But I would also want to hear like people obviously only really see us behind a screen, right? So I want to hear like more about like what do you guys do off the screen? Like what is what is what is your life like? I mean share as much or little as you'd like. Um, and also like how do you kind of use your gifts um outside of just the internet? >> That's a really good question. If you guys are eager to jump in, I I mean I can I can contribute something to that, but I'm in that phase of life where I've got kids who need a lot of attention. And so there's not a lot I can do to um actively involve myself in in sort of like parish life or or anything really outside of my work. to sort of like do this work as much as I can, go home, have leisure time with my family, um and then go to bed and and and and repeat. Uh but with that said, um sorry, I'm losing my train of thought now. >> Can I ask you a question? Yeah. How does how is the work how does the work that you do um how does that overflow, I guess, into your familial life? like how um how I guess do you apply what you do at work um and use that for the benefit of your family? Um >> it doesn't really cross over much cuz like our kids aren't online or anything like it's it's a very unfamiliar space for them. Um but it I was very unprepared to go into this space, right? Like I didn't have a background in philosophy or theology. And so once I had people all of a sudden tuning in, I felt this very grave responsibility to form myself more and more and more, right? And so as I do so, I I our kids are homeschooled. So as I do so, I find that I'm almost learning alongside them sometimes, right? Like we'll be reading the catechism at dinnertime or we'll be reading the gospel together for the day, right? As a part of our our daily prayers and I'm like trying to soak up and absorb as much of that as as we're just living the Catholic faith as well. Um, so >> so that's yeah, the the interactions with my kids and certainly my wife as well and how we we raise our family is probably the most applicable in real life sort of space. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. Love that. >> So where this hits for me is it's kind of a weird answer, but I get a lot of people that reach out to me on social media. So to me where I where I think this reaches is in responding to people in real life. >> So I get a lot of emails from people who say, "Hey, I saw this video. I'm going through this thing. I I'm wanting to become Catholic. My wife's against it or I'd have these questions. What do I do?" And and taking the time to actually respond to people and have a conversation with them. I think that's where that crosses over because I know a lot of people who don't want to do that. >> Yeah. >> They they're like, "Don't I don't want to see people in real life. I don't want to talk to my people. I don't want to answer anybody. I don't because I hear about it sometimes, you know, and that's a hard thing because boundaries can can be difficult to establish sometimes." But for me, I felt like I have this responsibility if I'm saying to people, "Hey, if you're feeling pulled to the Catholic Church, just do it." >> Yeah. >> Take the chance. Follow God. And then if somebody reaches out to me and says, "Hey, Keith, I'm trying to do that. I need help." And I just ignore that person. I feel like I'm that Pharisee who heaps a burden on someone and doesn't lift a finger to help. So, I've had to weirdly walk through that because I'm a people pleaser and kind of a workaholic. So, I can get myself into all sorts of weird situations with, you know, people in the middle of the night going, "Hey, can we have a phone call?" Yeah, sure. Hold on. You know, >> wow. >> And >> God bless you. >> I mean, I can't do that. But I've had so many incredible interactions with people over the years that couldn't just be confined to things I say in a video. It was the real life walking through things with people because of the internet. And to me, honestly, that's like become my favorite thing in the world. It isn't like something where I go, "Oh man, I made this video. I don't want anybody to talk to me about it." That's sort of how I gauge success was was this person's life changed by this. And sometimes I'm I'm blessed enough to be able to run into people and it's not just a question of oh yeah I watched that video and it was great but it's yeah we had a we had a Zoom call, we had a conversation and and it was really helpful to me. So, I feel like that sort of crosses over. And again, that could be challenging because sometimes, you know, that's a risky thing to do. And I got a call one time from my priest on a Tuesday afternoon and he's like, "Keith, there's a guy at the parish that's looking for you." And I'm like, "Okay." And they said, "He drove from Arizona because he says, "I have a message from God for Keith Nester. What should I do with him? >> That's your problem. >> I'm like, >> why didn't he email me? You know, >> this dude literally drove from Arizona to to to Cedar Rapids to come find me. And I told him, I said, "Please tell him to send me an email. I'm not going to meet with that dude." You know, but sometimes weird things can happen. And I'll have people sometimes that'll reach out and I' I've made decisions about that like, okay, I'm not going to hear about your revelation that you had from Mary or your personal idea about this and that. Like I I had to get really specific on who I will spend time with. >> And it's only the people that I feel like I can actually help, >> right? >> And me listening to them and their theological revelations isn't really helping them. >> No. >> So, but and sometimes people get mad about that. >> You know, they're they're they're they're hurt by that. But [clears throat] I think that for me anyway, and I wouldn't advise everybody to do that, and man, this is going to sound really bad, but I but I wouldn't advise the females to do that especially, you know, I wouldn't advise you to do that unless it's just like talking to other women or whatever, you know, and I don't do that either. Like I would never meet with some woman, but but um >> there has been some fruit from that that has been really powerful to me. >> Um I could say more about that, but I don't want to I don't want to talk too much about that. Um but I think that's sort of the crossover of our content, you know, when it when it really helps people. >> Yeah. >> Uh I wanted to add just how important for me it is to have inerson fellowship. Uh so during my maybe like two years ago, I want to say I was in the trenches. It was a dark time. Uh, but I really felt this need to dive into scripture or learn more about scripture in some way. And I didn't just want to listen to a podcast. I didn't just want to pick up the Bible and just read it. Uh, and I wanted fellowship with other women. So, I tried to find a Bible study, a Catholic one, and there wasn't one. And, uh, our pastor at our church actually saw it because I posted on Facebook. I said, "Any Catholic Bible studies?" and our pastor saw it, texted my husband, and said, "Hey, tell her to start one." I said, "Oh my gosh, I don't want to start it. I just want to join one." But anyways, long story short, I ended up starting one. And it's every Saturday at 8:00 a.m. we take a break for the summer and we break for we kind of follow the school year schedule. And it has been one of the most fruitful experiences that I've ever had. My faith really did deepen so so much and just that fellowship. And so for me, I talk about it openly. I tell people all the time, it's so important to find that in-person uh fellowship. And it's hard. There aren't that many options at a lot of different parishes. Uh and so you can kind of substitute that with a little bit of online fellowship and you get to know the people in these communities and your audience, but ultimately it's what happens after you log off. So, if the content inspires you or convicts you, but then you turn it off and you roll over and start watching Netflix, like did it really convict you? Was it actually impactful or or not? So, uh that's what that kind of looks like for me. The inerson fellowship, I've met the my best friends through there and yeah, it's just fellowship is so so so important. Uh so that's really needed. So, here's something I've struggled to navigate uh because I just I don't have the natural aptitude for it. Like, I'm a pretty introverted person and I don't have any related experience professionally or otherwise for being the focus of attention in real life, right? Um behind a camera, okay, whatever, you know, barbs and whatever else that comes at me in the digital space, I can kind of just I can log off if I have to, right? But in in real life, um, one of the things I was really unprepared for was finding out that people and people have told me this. They'll say, "I go to this parish because I found out you go here, right? Or I joined through RCIA because I found out you're a parishioner here, right?" And like Keith, I'm really interested in your take on this cuz you have like pastoral experience and presumably training that goes along with that whereas I have none. So, like I'll go to a parish social and find my friends like a normal person and have conversations with my friends where I'm comfortable and it's easy, but then I'm now I'm starting to think like I should go out to the peripheries where I'm uncomfortable because there's probably people waiting to talk to me, right? And to encourage them in being a part of this community and to get integrated in whatever ways that they need to. But I'm just I'm not that kind of a public figure. I don't have again the training or the aptitude for it. Has that been your guys experience? And do you have advice on like how to navigate that at all? >> Oh yeah. So this happened just a couple weeks ago. Um I I was at mass. I I went to a mass on a Saturday night which I normally don't go to and my wife and I went downstairs after the mass was over to have like fellowship time, which I think is important because I'm always barking at people on in my videos about, you know, don't run out of there. make sure you talk to people and I have to practice what I preach. >> So, I think that's number one is if we're challenging people to be more involved in their parish communities or more evangelistic or whatever it might be, are we do are we doing what we say we're going to what we're asking others people other people to do. >> So, I went downstairs and I was sitting with these old ladies. They're not watching hopefully. But I noticed out of the corner of my eye there was this and this was a uh like I was the young guy in this in this group. So you can tell what that means. But >> yeah, >> I noticed out the corner of my eye there was this this girl who looked probably early 20s, >> okay, >> by herself across the room at a different table and she was sitting alone. >> And I'm kind of like, okay, wait a second. you know, we got to make sure that somebody talks to this girl because I didn't want her to feel like she was all by herself. I mean, that has to take a lot of courage to go to mass by yourself, go downstairs, and then be in a room where other people are gathered at round tables and what are you going to do? Just walk up to a bunch of strangers? >> So, I'm sitting there and she ends up coming over to our table and I start talking to her and I I'm like, "Who are you?" You know, what's your name? My name's And of course she says she says, "Oh, I love watching your videos." You know, I shouldn't have said, "Of course she said that, but she said that." >> Of course. >> Of course she did. >> She said, "I thought you were Brian Hollesworth." No, I'm just kidding. [laughter] >> And we had this conversation and she was talking about how she was completely agnostic, went to a Catholic funeral for somebody, >> fell in love with the church, and comes to that church every week. and she says it's her favorite thing in the world to do >> and she loves the people and she's so excited about it and we had the best conversation. But I was determined that I wasn't going to leave without making sure she got to talk to somebody because I've been in that situation too where I've just I've gotten up from tables sometimes and gone over and just said, "Hang on, I'll be right back." and go over and talk to people that are sitting by themselves. Now you go, "Well, >> I didn't get trained in doing that." >> Yeah. you know, and maybe you're not as outgoing person. That might seem a little bit weird. I don't I don't know that you have to do that. >> You know, I don't know that you have to necessarily put yourself in a situation that you don't feel comfortable in, but I think what you have to do is love your neighborh >> and what does that look like for you? You know, I think it'd be different if you were if somebody came over to you and said, "Hey, it's nice to see you." And you were like, "Oh, no." And you ran away from them. [laughter] But I think we just have to be who we're supposed to be in Christ and be willing to do that. But I also think too, we have to think about what do we wish other people were doing? We spend a lot of time, let's face it, on on Catholic media, we're always griping about our parishes. We're always griping about how bad the church is. What are we personally doing to make that better? >> Griping about it. >> Good point. [laughter] >> Yeah. Actually, I would take a diff I take a different approach, Keith, to myself. Um, I'll give an example. I was sitting at a coffee shop with my husband and um I over here it was just us and then this group of men um that were probably in their 20s early 30s and there was probably eight of them um sitting at a table and I was just you know easedropping on them as I do and they were talking about um I because I heard them you know using buzzwords like um orthodox like oh that doctrine isn't orthodox and I was like oh like this is my language right here. So, I'm just listening to them, you know, banter on a little bit, and they were talking about, you know, that church right there, um, you know, they they preach a prosperity gospel and you can't go there. Um, and so I'm like, "Oh, okay. I think they're Protestant." So, I was sitting there for, you know, 10 minutes listening to them and I look at my husband, I'm like, "Maybe I should talk to them." And he's like, "Absolutely not." Cuz he [laughter] he is the least confrontational person ever. He's like, "No, like I I can't do that." And I'm like I just I and I felt, you know, of course nervous as well, but I'm also like I felt, you know, internally conflicted that I'm willing to go on the internet and talk to these people, but I can't do it face to face. And I'm like, Emily, you can't you can't be a coward. So, as much as I was very scared and uncomfortable, um, especially, but I also know, okay, I'm a female and these are all men and I'm sure they're good guys. So, they're probably going to be really sweet to me and then, you know, think that I'm just, you know, just a girl because I am just a girl, but like they're probably not going to be intimidated by my presence. You know, if it was a man, maybe that story would be different. So, I walk over to them um after my I I convinced my husband, "Yeah, it's okay. Let me go over there." Um, and so I went over there and um, I just said, "Hey, like I overheard you guys talking and like I'm a Christian as well and like can I jump into the conversation?" And they were like, "Yeah, like of course." And they all introduced themselves and they were so so sweet. Um, and we ended up having a conversation with them for over an hour and talking about I eventually said they were like, you know, I was like, "Oh, what type of Christian are you?" And they're like, "Oh, you know, I'm I'm Protestant if you know what that is." And I was like, "Oh, yeah, yeah, I do know what that is." And so eventually it came out that I was Catholic. Um and so I started asking them, you know, what are your guys' thoughts on the Catholic church? And we had a really friendly conversation and at the end of it, it was it was so sweet. He asked like, "Can I pray with you guys?" And and he prayed with us and it was very beautiful. But um I really So I think at the same time, yeah, we have to be who we are. Like you know um you can't you can't be somebody you're not. But also like I would encourage people to like push themselves out of their comfort zone a little bit. uh because you never know what fruit can can take place and can happen um if you're willing to just go a little bit outside of what you're normally you know comfortable with. Uh just I don't know how much time we have left. Oh, we're good. Okay. Okay, great. uh to add to that. So um situations like this conference podcasts I went to seek earlier this year uh make me melt into my own skin and it's not very enjoyable for me. I always end up saying yes because I always ask myself is it something that I don't want to do because I am nervous. I actually I think this might be a St. Augustine maybe quote I don't know you you guys tell me the >> sure >> but it's something about uh and where where's my husband I wish he could he knows it something about uh what you fear the most is what you love the most so it's kind of like a >> okay >> something something like that so for me it's like what am I so scared of is it how people perceive you is that why you're scared so for me it's like okay if that's the case that you're nervous to go to seek or go to this conference is it because you're scared of how people will perceive you because that is what you are attached to. >> I'm I'm I'm not saying I am or I'm not, but for me, I'm a very shy person. I'm very introverted. And so, I have to do a lot of self-reflection of are the things that I'm uncomfortable with, am I uncomfortable with them because I'm attached to a potentially bad outcome and I don't want that bad outcome or is it that I'm uncomfortable because it's just not my personality. And so, I've had to kind of discern and figure out like, well, what is it? like which side am I kind of falling into? Uh so I always I go back to when I started veiling. I remember I was so nervous about it and I felt like I was going to stick out like a sore thumb and I remember we went to mass and I could just feel all the eyes and the back of my head. Everyone knew I was veiling and it was such a big deal to me. And the homaly, which I wasn't paying attention to because I was so nervous and caught up over people who, by the way, no one was watching me. The homaly was about pushing yourself outside of your comfort zone in order to glorify God in some way. And my husband nudged me >> and he was like, >> "Hey." >> And I was I was it was such a moment of, "Wow, this is exactly the kind of thing that this does honor our Lord. This is something that for me, you know, it's about reverence and it's about all these things. So that's what I think about. So when I get these opportunities to speak or to whatever, I want to crawl into a hole and I I think I've said I just want to be left alone a thousand times over the last year and a half. But is this an opportunity that I can use to help people or to, you know, maybe spread my message further that can be fruitful for people? If the answer is yes, okay, then why are you scared? Are you scared of misrepresenting our faith? Sometimes, yes, I am. >> I don't want to be caught off guard. I don't like live things. So, this is like day two of live things for me. Uh, but yeah, that's something that for me, I've really had to discern. So, it's like, what why are you so scared? Are you scared of evangelizing in person because of what they will perceive? Are you scared of evangelizing online because of what the response will be? Or is it deeper? Is it different? Um, and I think you have to be true to yourself. Like you said, I'm a very shy person, but I can also be bold and I am bold in my faith. So, >> figuring out that >> balance. I've heard this like um crazy depiction of purgatory, which is like all of the times where we we could have said yes to God and what would have happened if we would have said yes to him and his will. Um, and I think that that that prospect motivates me, you know, because I don't want to get to judgment and and see all the times where if I just would have said yes, if I just would have done that thing um and gone a little bit outside of my zone, that that could have, you know, led to somebody changing their life. I mean, the kingdom of God is like a mustard seed, right? All it takes is a small act of a small leap um and something big can result. So, um, yeah. How does that settle with you, Brian? Because I know you kind of asked a little bit about that. >> [laughter] >> So about like the effects of in person and just planting seeds you mean or >> like so you are like I think Anna me and you are all introverted Keith I don't I don't think you're an introvert not at all >> and so >> you're very outgoing you command the room. >> Oh my goodness [laughter] you >> if I could run away right now I would >> you guys are doing great. You guys are doing great. But like, so I think we would say, you know, we don't have the natural proclivity to like put ourselves out there and really be forward facing people. Like if I could just work behind the scenes, that would be awesome. >> But I also think that's a testament to how the gifts from our Lord actually work. Like my husband's the most outgoing guy. He can make friends with anyone and talk about anything for a long long time. >> He's probably doing that right now. >> Yeah. Joe, >> he literally is. Yeah. He's not even listening. He's just talking. >> Look at him. He's chatting. >> Yeah. I love that guy. [laughter] >> But um yeah, so I always say you should Why didn't you start posting online? How dare you turn your back and not start posting? Cuz then this could be you sitting here, you know? Uh but I think it's so interesting because it's, you know, it's is this what the Lord, you know, is calling you to do? Someone asked me that earlier and it's like I actually don't know because I'm just doing what I think would glorify and serve him and the Lord gives and the Lord takes. And so for me it's like almost like a blessing on the ministry or the work that we're doing that I get the response that I do from people like I you know I you I went back to confession because you explained something that I had you know never heard before. And so to me I'm like okay okay I'll keep going. All right fine. I think there's a dimension of this too in which the Lord glorifies himself by using insufficient instruments. Right? And like I I have no training in rhetoric or public speaking or communication in this dimension at all. Uh I don't consider myself particularly good-looking or you know great on camera. >> Well, thank you. Thank >> I was actually fishing for compliments and thank you Keith. >> You're welcome. I'm the outgoing one. Remember? >> Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. But nonetheless, I said yes in a kind of a clumsy way to a window that was open or a door that was cracked and God did something amazing with it. Right? Like I've never done something in my life where I've deliberately put my hand to the plow, so to speak, and had so much fruit come back from it where I'm just like, whoa, that I was not expecting that. And that for me has been an ongoing discernment in that, well, God, you did this, so what am I supposed to do with that? Right? Right. And there's been an ongoing reluctant yes, I would say to to continue doing that in spite of the fact that it's terrifying for me too in a lot of respects. Right? And day after day, whether it's in my parish or whether it's on something stupid I said and published online, I feel like, oh, I'm just not I'm not cut out for this. But if it is bearing good fruit, you know, it's kind of like David going up against Goliath, right? Like David shouldn't beat Goliath by all accounts, right? If you're a betting man, you bet on Goliath. And yet David wins, right? So if I think if we can be stay humble and think of ourselves in those terms, then God can do amazing things. I have like one quick story just to sort of bridge off of of of what you guys are saying because there was one time where we as a family, we just stopped in at a McDonald's like with all of our kids and we're a bit of a like a scene when we walked in anywhere, right? And so, um, I immediately noticed two people and judged them like superficially based on their appearance. One was clearly a Greek Orthodox, uh, clergyman and the other was a Freemason, biker kind of looking guy, right? So, this this this this Freemason, he's sitting by himself sort of like hunched over his coffee covered in tattoos that are all Masonic, right? So, and it's it's it's explicit. He's got like a badge that's Masonic. He's got a hat that's Masonic. He's got a ring that's Masonic. And I I spotted him from a mile away and I was like, "Whoa, okay, there's a line in the sand there that that we can't be friends based on, right?" And then the Greek Orthodox priest is like, "Well, yeah, we could be friends on some things, but still there's some rivalry there, right?" So anyways, I notice them. We sit down and we're organizing our kids for dinner. And then before long, the Greek Orthodox priest walks over to us, and I'm like, "Why is he coming over here?" And he he goes, and this is early on where I I didn't have many experiences of people recognizing me, but he recognized me and he goes, "I've seen your channel." And this is like months after I did something about Eastern Orthodoxy, too. And he was like, "I really really like your stuff. I'm a former Catholic myself. I'd love to chat with you sometime." Right? And I was like, "I don't know what to do with this. I I walked in here thinking of you as something of an adversary." And now just by virtue of this me being in this space and God using it, there's like there's a connection here, right? And so so that was beautiful. And then as we're walking out, the the Freemason who I was like just terrified of like the aura and everything, he stops us and like grabs me. I was like, "Oh, not again. Somebody else." And he goes, "I'm so inspired by your family. Like it's just such a beautiful thing to see so many kids and they were so well behaved." And I was like, "Thank you." Like, "Oh, we could be friends, too. That's that's interesting." Right? So, so those are just some of the unexpected ways that, you know, God can kind of use us when we say yes in in whatever way it might be. >> Even in a McDonald's, God in mysterious places and ways. I love it. >> Social media, McDonald's, right? Yeah. [laughter] >> What do you guys think, and this is a personal question, what do you think you owe your audience? What responsibility do you have to them? >> I would just say honesty I think is really the only thing that I have to give my audience and that can translate into a lot of different things. For me personally that means I talk a lot about devotions or different things that uh people can use different tools different saints. Uh my whole goal is to have people find something that makes their faith deepen in any way. So whether that's the rosary or a chaplet or devotion or whatever it is. And I had somebody make a comment on my when I post I posted for Lent. I said, "Not doing well, guys. Pray for me." Somebody said, "Oh, this sounds mean, but I'm so glad you're not killing it all the time because I resent you for, you know, you get on here every day and you're talking about these things and all this and you're happy and like, yeah, love your Lord, blah, and then you sign off and I'm struggling and it feels good that you're also struggling." And so that to me made me look at and she didn't mean it in a mean way. She could have probably said it a little nicer like, "So glad you're not doing well." But I I really took that as okay this is it was an eye openener for me. So I think that's for me that's what I owe people is just honesty about hey this isn't I need to take a break I need to take care of me or I'm not doing well or I love this about our faith or whatever. >> Great answer. >> Yeah for me I think um you know I've been online for five years now and I've definitely gone through a lot of peaks and valleys and different seasons of my life on there. Um, and so I think what I learned is like I can't be sitting here talking about the Catholic faith if I am not personally like having a relationship with our Lord and really um, cultivating that. So I think that's what I owe to my audience most is that I'm truly practicing what I'm preaching and that I'm I am living out my faith as authentically and as best as I can um, and not in a fake way of like, you know, God calls us to be as holy as as he he wants us to be, not more and not less. Like I just am who I am, so I'm not going to pretend to be something else different. Um but at the same time I have to make sure that I am you know fostering these virtues and um really stren you know praying and truly you know having that relationship with God. So yeah I would say that's what I owe most. >> I like that answer a lot. I would I would echo No. Yeah. It's pretty good. No no they're they're both good answers. I would I would echo that a lot for me personally. But also if I could add anything to it would be that there's a fine line between [snorts] curiosity and and studiousness. Curiosity is a vice and it is everywhere online and and and you know the internet especially social media exploits that vice right uh what's what's just under the scroll right what's the next thing I'm going to see for for titilation studiousness is about seeking knowledge as a good in a responsible way um curiosity is just about you know what's the next tanalyzing thing I'm going to see right [snorts] um and so we're in that space and I think we have a responsibility to encourage the one and steer away from it from the other uh and and that goes for many other cases, right, towards virtue away from vice and to be fluent in in in virtue ethics and and where we want to help our audience um build those virtues. I remember like I had been Catholic for a long time before I had ever heard of the the cardinal virtues, right? And we were before we came here, we had a layover in St. Paul in Minnesota. And so we decided to go see the cathedral there. And right underneath the dome, there's like four corners of the cardinal virtues like illustrated in in these beautiful mosaics and then with the words like prudence, justice, temperance, fortitude, right? And and I pointed that out to my wife and I was just like even if you don't get catechized well, like the beautiful tradition of our church was to catechize through these sort of great visual uh elements, right? like people came to worship every day maybe if not every week and were were being exposed to the cardinal virtues, right? And so virtue ethics was just massive for me when I started to learn about it and and just such an aid to living well and to being whole and healthy. And so that's that's a passion for me and trying to live it but also expose others to it and steer them towards it and away from the vices that we are susceptible to in social media. >> Great answer. I have one more question for you guys. How do you keep yourself from the hamster wheel of and maybe maybe I shouldn't presume that you've been on this, but I have. >> Oh, well, if I only get to this many followers, then I'll feel like a success. >> And if I only hit this mark, then I'll have this. How do you keep yourself from the comparison to other people that are that are um that have more or are more uh well-known or whatever to keep you from that that unhealthy place of feeling like it's never enough? >> I think for me it's gratitude and like radical honesty because if I look at my Instagram or YouTube and a hundred people saw my video, five people liked it. If a hundred people were watching me right now say something and five of them stood up and clapped, I would feel so I would feel so proud. And so I think keeping that perspective of sometimes the numbers they feel are they feel fake just like arbitrary like 300,000 100,000. It's like h well this guy has a million. No, no, no. A 100,000 people is scary. Uh so that for me, gratitude and honest and I I get sucked into that um as well. I think we all do. But yeah, that's what I think those are two things I think you need. >> Yeah, I think in general it's it's easy to tell ourselves the grass is always greener on the other side, right? Um and so I I echo what you just said. Gratitude I think is a huge one. Just being grateful for what I've been entrusted with in the first place. Um, but also, you know, we're called to be in the world, but not of the world and to be detached from the world. And so, I think that's just something in general that I have to work on, which is like um truly like I I mean, we've kind of already echoed this, but like I like if if my platform was taken away, like when Tik Tok is my main platform and it literally got banned from the United States for like I don't even know, maybe 48 hours, people are like, "How does that make you feel, Emily?" And I'm like, "I'm so glad." Like I'm I mean like I don't feel bad at all. Like good riddance. like if if that's what the Lord wills that it's gone like like I'm I'm totally okay with that. So I think just being content with where God has placed me in my life. Um I think that that is what I have to be happy um with and accepting of because that's where he wants me and I should desire to be where he wants me not where I think I should be. So learning that. >> Good for you. I wish I could say the same honestly. Like I know that's the right answer and I I wish I could be there, but like if YouTube disappeared overnight, I' I'd be distressed by that, right? >> Living though. That's not my full-time job. So you have eight you have a lot of children to >> Fair enough. Yeah. Yeah. Um I I I will say that like again this comes back to sort of virtue and vice for me like like vain gore vain glory, pride, ambition these are these are vices that are all set as snares for us who kind of enter into this space and we have to be very careful about that and I would say almost like we have to impair ourselves against being susceptible to it. Right? So one of the things I do which I recognize is just it's vulnerability. it's a weakness in myself and therefore I have to do this is uh every time I publish a video I I walk away I lock it down I don't have access to any of that information on my phone so that if I want to check my analytics I have to log into my computer open it up in my browser and like deliberately do that I can't just I can't check any of it. Um, and so my my rule for myself is publish it, walk away, don't look at it again until you go have to go you have to go in there to publish again. And that way I'm not like stressing about >> the numbers and and the fame or the lack of fame or just the distress that kind of comes along with that. So that's that's how I avoid the hamster wheel as you said. >> Well, this has been awesome, you guys. I've really enjoyed getting to pick your brains a little bit in this and and learning from you. And I want to thank all of you for watching that are still here. I know you're missing dinner right now. >> Um >> and uh I want to thank those of you watching online. Please make sure you follow all these creators here. Um Brian won't know anyway one way or the other, but >> he'll he'll be locked down. No, >> but uh No, seriously. And also follow Franciscan University. >> Franciscan. >> Yes, Franciscan University. Yeah, guys. I like it. >> So, only follow me and Franciscan. >> There you go. And go to Steenville. >> And go to Stevenville. Yeah. >> And if you've ever thought about coming to a Defending the Faith conference at Franciscan University or another conference, I highly encourage you to check it out. We've had an amazing time here. This has been awesome and we're so grateful for the university to invite us to come and do this. So once again, my friends, thank you so much. This is Anna Munley. I'm Keith Nester, Emily Denini, and Brian Holdzsworth. and we've had a great time with all of you here at Defending the Faith. >> Thank you so much, guys. >> Thanks, guys.