Can Pulsed Red Light Therapy Really Produce 3X More Collagen?

So today I interview the founder of Mama, Biv May Sanderson. Now this interview is amazing because we go deep into pulsing, not just not just regular standard pulsing, but we go into intelligent micropulsing. This stuff, it blew my mind. I didn't even know it was a thing. And Bev knows a lot about it. She's looked at the research. She's built products around this technology. So look, if you want to know about pulsing and red light therapy and the benefits it can bring, then this interview is for you. But not only that, we look at serums. We look at how you should be using serums when it comes to red light therapy. We look at designing the best red light therapy mask. And we also talk about the Mesama Aura, which if you'd have seen my review, I liked, but there was some things I didn't like. So, we talk about that at depth as well. Let's get into it. And again, I promise you, you'll learn something from this. So, enjoy. I'm affiliated with some of the companies mentioned in this video and I will earn a commission if you buy through my links or discount codes. Products were provided to me free of charge and all opinions are my own. This is not medical advice. Bev, it's amazing to have you on the channel. I'm so excited for this conversation. You know what? Let's let's just let's go straight into it. Pulsing. It's an area that I looked at briefly years ago. wasn't too let's say impressed in regards to the science or my understanding around pulse light for red light therapy applications. You I know are a big believer in it and you've spent a lot of time you've published a lot of articles. Why what's convinced you that pulsing actually matters rather than just being another marketing fed that some other companies are using to sell products? Yeah, I mean that that is such a great question to kick off with. I mean my my love affair with with pulse light started from a conversation that I had with the German researcher Andre summer. He was the guy that wrote that paper originally around red light and green tea a powerful duo in skin rejuvenation. I reached out to Andre Summer because uh we started as a skincare brand, you may be aware of that, Alex, and we have a a green Roy Boss serum that got picked up for use with red light therapy. That was on account of the the paper that Andre Summer had had published. And in that conversation with Summer, he said to me, "Are you using pulseed um LED therapy?" And I said, "No." Um you know, should I be? Tell me more. and he explained to me that they're using pulse light in their research studies and their research um some of their research is around anti-cancer drugs with one of those cancer anti-cancer drugs being green tea or EGCG the active from green tea which you know has many parallels with green royos. So he explained to me when you shine the red light on the cells, the cells expand. And then when the light goes off, when you're pulsing, the light goes off, the cell contracts. And what that does is it creates a breathing effect in the cell. So expands, contracts repeatedly like this. And when it contracts, any micronutrients surrounding the cell get sucked into the cell. So they use it as a drug delivery system. it actually improves the bioavailability of the active ingredients. So he said if you use that with your skin care it will help uptake the active ingredients in skincare and improve the efficacy of your skinincare. And I thought well what a fantastic reason. So [gasps] you know that for me sold me on using pulse LED. We weren't even producing LED devices at this point. But as time went on, a lot of customers who were using our serum said to us, "What red light equipment do you recommend and do you have your own?" And there came a point when I thought, "I really want my own equipment." You know, the two are such a great pairing. Um, so the very first product that we produced was our pulseed LED panel and we incorporated the pulsing based on what Andre Summer told us. But in the meantime, I've done so much more research on on pulsing. You know, why is it important? What else can it do? And when you look at it, I mean, I can understand why you felt that initially, oh, it's not that important. Because I think a lot of people kind of made that conclusion because it was introduced for lasers on the basis that lasers can generate quite a bit of heat. So, they needed the pulsing with a laser to make sure that you didn't get tissue damage. Now, clearly that's not really going to apply to LED. LED does not, you know, provide a lot of heat. So, you don't need to worry about that. But when you start looking at the research, um, and there's a fantastic, um, comprehensive review that was published by Hashmi in 2010 that takes in more than 30 science papers on on pulsed light as a delivery system and compares it to continuous light. And they they really conclude from that paper that it does have very distinct properties. You know, it's not just about light delivery. It's kind of like a stimulus plus the signal and it has a [clears throat] very distinct impact on the cells. It goes beyond this kind of helping uptake ingredients. What they found was that they they looked at so many studies in this Alex. It was anything from wound healing to bone formation to transcranial you know photobi modulation and they found that they got improved clinical outcomes when the light was pulsing compared to continuous wave. So you know we're looking at things like improved um faster wound closure you know more structured colliden when it's laid down which is massively important for anti-aging as you'll appreciate. um bone formation accelerated, cell proliferation accelerated, ATP production was greater than when using continuous wave alone. So a lot of it comes down to this sort of oxidative stress. You know, as you'll appreciate, when you use red light, you get ATP produced, but you also get a burst of free radicals. And if you're using a continuous light stimulus, then over prolonged exposure to red light, you get a buildup of these reactive oxygen species. And that is the critical point because it's those ROS that actually impact the efficacy of your device and slow down the um the bio stimulation over time. So this is the bifphasic dose curve which I think some of your viewers will be familiar with. I'm sure you've touched on this previously. So what it looks at here really is what happens when you have a continuous wavelight stimulus. So initially you've got not you know no response because you've got a low dose and then you get to a point where you've got it's basically what we call the Goldilock zone isn't it? The bit that's just right in the middle. If you've got too much then you get into where you go over this threshold and then you get diminishing returns. So this is why you know if you're using an energy mask and you're using continuous wave and they say to you use it for 10 minutes ideally don't go over those 10 minutes because the dose is already calculated and if you go beyond that effectively you won't get a better result you could get less of a result. If you use an LED device for too long effectively you can go into this inhibition. So those very processes that you're looking to stimulate the ATP production the cell proliferation those start to slow down. Now that doesn't happen with pulse light. When you use pulse light, it's a different situation. The reason being is what's happening here is you've got this buildup of reactive oxygen species. When you switch to pulse light, then the light is on when it's producing ATP and um some free radicals. And then when you switch the light off, it uses up its ATP reserves and those free radicals dissipate. So effectively the curve becomes extended. So this is the effect that potentially you get when you're using pulse light. That goldilock zone is extended. So it increases the efficacy of your red light device. You can use it for longer and it's still producing ATP and driving that cell proliferation. So I love that about pulse light. So I thought that was really interesting. You know, when you look at how it impacts that bifphasic dose response, it makes total sense why pulse light potentially can give you this this better outcome. It's worth noting that there's there's so many different parameters, you know, because pulsing isn't just like on and off. You can have different frequencies. You can use it at 10 hertz, you can use it 100 hertz, or you can use it at, you know, over a thousand hertz, which is effectively micropulsing. But that study, you know, that comprehensive review that um Hashmi put together in 2010, I think was was really compelling because out of 30 studies, the majority of them showed that pulsing was bringing a benefit and there was a range of different parameters used within that. And I think as you know, as the science has moved forward, there's just more and more researchers now incorporating pulse light in their research. So like Choy, you know, he published a paper in 2025 on on wound healing and he's using pulseed LED in that and it it shows how it really improves how that collagen is laid down the the sort of restructuring of the extracellular matrix which again you know because I think mostly about anti-aging I'm sure you know for panels you think about general wellness more than anti-aging but it's it's fascinating I just think you know pulse right across the board is is fantastic Fantastic. I mean the general consensus, you know, because people say, well, why does it, you know, have that effect? We we know about these free radicals and those reactive oxygen species and how that potentially impacts it. But the general consensus is that everything in biology is rhythms. Everything is cycles. So, you know, cells need periods of rest. They need these recovery periods. And that's what the pulse light gives them. If you give them this continuous light stimulus over time, potentially the cells become overwhelmed and they don't respond so effectively. If you give them these brief recovery periods, it allows cells to absorb photons, process them, reset, and then respond to the next stimulus that comes in. And in doing that, it's a little bit like interval training for cells. They just perform better for longer. And I think you know there's enough evidence out there's this growing body of research that pulse in its own right becomes a parameter. So you don't just look at wavelength dosing pulsing is also a consideration a huge consideration >> which is um the last thing I want to hear. It's already conflicts enough when I'm trying to uh quantify these products and wavelengths and protein and frequency of use and treatment times and I'm like oh gosh now there's another metric I need to uh unwrap >> there is there is another metric it's exactly that yes >> I actually want to go back a little bit I I've jotted down about five or six things I I want to unpack here based on on um what you covered but I think it's important to define or or explain pulsing You briefly did it before, but a lot of people, someone watching this when they think of pulsing, they may think of flicker or they may think of literally like a strobing light, right? And yes, that is pulsing. But you mentioned Hertz and pulsing can be visible, but a lot of the pulsing is invisible, right? So for someone new to this, maybe they have a bit of understanding with red light therapy, they're not too sure about pulse light pulsing, how it works, what actually it is. Can you just give them a quick, you know, 30 second overview? >> Absolutely. Yeah. So, pulsing is effectively intermittent light. So, the stimulus of the light is on and then off. It doesn't have to be on and off equally, but let's say it is on for 50% of the time, then off for 50% of the time. That's what we call a 50% duty cycle. I think you'll find that pretty much every LED device out there that uses pulsing has got a 50% duty cycle with the exception of aura which we'll come on to. There are these different frequencies that you mentioned. So if we use a frequency of less than 100 hertz potentially that's visible to the naked eye. So the lower the number the slower the pulse. So within our LED panel, our pulse 40 panel, we use different frequencies of 10 and and 30 Hz, 10 20 and 30 Hz. All of those pulses are visible to the naked eye, which is exactly why we say when you use pulse 40 panel 100% you must wear goggles. Okay? Because as we said, pulse isn't just light. It also would send messages to the brain through the retina. Now, they use pulse light to treat Parkinson's, but you know, we're we're looking at skin rejuvenation here. We're not trying to treat Parkinson's. So, if we're using pulse light with our our panel that is visible, you need to wear goggles. You're just treating your skin. Now, we choose those lower frequencies because we can with the panel because first, we want we actually want you to see the pulse with a panel because if you didn't see it, you wouldn't wear goggles. You probably wouldn't realize it was there. And it is important to wear goggles because we don't want you to send messages to the brain. Okay. >> If you're wearing an LED mask, it's kind of the opposite. You actually don't want the pulse to be visible. The um irradiance of the mask is lower at the outset. So, you're not working with high intensity bright light. Secondly, it's not directed into the retina. So, it's within um an irradiance and dosing that is safe for eye health. So there's no need to wear in fact if anything you know you're probably going to get benefit for IEL. Um so there's no need to wear uh goggles or any kind of eye protection with an [clears throat] LED mask in general and you don't see any strobing effect. It's invisible because you've gone over 100 hertz. Then you can go into micropulsing which is anything over a thousand hertz. So it's very very high frequency. But you know we'll come on to why we use that with Aura. >> Yeah. Okay. So that was great. So when I looked at pulsing years ago, now I should mention there are some products in the market that have literally have clinical studies showing their efficacy and I've used them. I've reviewed them. Great products. One example is Vite, right? This is a transcranial PBM device. It's using pulsing at 10 hertz or 40 Hz. Now when I looked at pulsing years ago, years and years ago, I saw the research I saw the benefits of the resonance effect you know like where you're you're pulsing that light at the gamma alpha rates and the brain what's the word entrainment I think it is right so right so that mechanism even though using pulse light is different it's a totally different mechanism to what you're talking about here in terms fictively integral training not necessarily >> but entrainment comes more into play with aura um and the intelligent micropulsing where we are looking to you know it's designed to align that external rhythm with the internal rhythm of the cell the cell's response to light so entrainment comes into that um with prana or our pulse LED panel it's just the pulse the effect of the pulsing in general not necessarily entrainment because intrament would imply that one rhythm is following another. But there is evidence I mean again going back to that hashmir report it talks about um how certain frequencies of pulsing might align with um iron channels. So they don't know all the answers Alex they don't know whether it's aligning with biological frequencies or whether it's you know due to other effects. >> Okay. Yeah. And that's true for so many things in the red light therapy space. Full stop. You know, in terms of I mean I was at a PBM event two years ago with all the top researchers. uh Michael Hamlin uh James Carol was there not necessarily a researcher but you know they're big in the space and I did a few like quick 15 20 minute interviews with them and I always asked or touched on mechanisms and everyone had different explanations and there was some that like James Carol for instance say like we we simply don't know there's still so much we don't know >> exactly yeah they're hypothesis really aren't they um I mean another thing that came up was you know we talk about the release of nitric oxide from cytochrome C oxidase and um one thing that's that's been mentioned is that when you're using pulse light it creates these multiple events so that nitric oxide is released oxygen binds again you know nitric oxide is released it's it's that um so it could be that it could be iron channels it could be entrainment with other you know brain waves when you're talking about the transcranial definitely the the 10 hertz aligns with with brain waves so they use it for that So there's so many possible explanations, but entrainment is potentially part of that. >> Okay. And then you touched or you explained how the pulsing effect allows the cell to have a brief reset, a brief recovery period, right? How brief? I mean, you're talking 100,000 hertz, right? That's that's very rapid. Is that is that enough time for for a cell to recharge so to speak? >> Yes. [laughter] So um I think you know when you're using pulsing in general you're definitely giving cells these kind of reset periods but when you get into the microscond domain you're you're kind of fine-tuning it even further. So that's when you start to kind of mitigate any wastage between here comes the pulse and you know the cells responded to that um oh it's sitting around waiting for the next one oh boom you know the next pulse comes in with micros secondsonds and because because cells are microsconds you know they're not milliseconds so that's where I think you get the advantage when you start moving from traditional pulsing you know sort of 10 40 100 hertz into this microscond range >> okay yeah interesting because I know like you used the interval training analogy and I've done a lot of interval training over the years with sports and stuff and I know at some point you know a 10second a 5second rest period it's like meaningless right you you may as well just continue doing the sprints or whatever it may be it's the thing is though it's just so hard it's such tiny time frames you know like micros seconds it's it's hard to understand and appreciate it I guess Yes. >> Yeah. But if you're looking for this synchronization, you know, that's where the intelligent micropulsing really comes into play because it then aligns what the cell is doing and well the pulse is that external pulse is then aligning with the internal cellular frequency if you like and then driving this greater efficiency because you're mitigating any wastage between the stimulus. >> Right. Yeah. Now you've mentioned this term a few times now so let's unpack it. Intelligent micro what is it? >> Yeah. So, I mean essentially we've talked about you know the need for these recovery periods. Um what intelligent micropulsing does is it precisely times the delivery of those recovery periods and um it looks at the natural response cycle of the cell and it it kind of like it prods the cell. So it gives it a number of pulses. Um so the cell goes oh okay I'm going to respond you know. Um and then it gives it a chance to process it and then it gives it a nice little recovery period and then it does it again. You you know respond. So it kind of prods it several times, gives it a chance to rest and prods it again. And what they did you know there is research behind this. So it's um if you if you look at the research it was done on human fibroblasts and the researchers used various um pulse patterns. So these are different pulse structures, you know, several pulses with defined pulse width, defined pulse interval, defined pulse sequences. So how many pulses in a in a train, defined pulse interval, how long is that gap? So all those different patterns were were tested and they found that specific pulse patterns in the microscond domain outperform standard pulsing and continuous wave. And it's taking that concept and then putting it into our aura Mars. So we didn't, you know, invent the science. We built around it. We precision engineered around this because what they found with these, you know, precise pulse patterns that specific pulse patterns produced more collagen. And as you'll be aware, you know, LED masks, they're there to drive collagen production to make our skin firmer and more youthful. So taking these precise pulse patterns and then engineering that into the light delivery system, you know, potentially increases collagen production. They found that these specific pulse patterns outperformed other conditions tested by producing up to three times more collagen. Now, you can't ignore that. You know, when when I read that paper, that was kind of my Eureka moment. I went, I got to take that and put that technology into beauty tech. You know >> that study is that the virlet study say 10. Yeah. >> Okay. Yeah. So they were using 16 nanometer red light 8 jewels over centime squared dosing. Yeah. Collagen production. Okay. So that was an in vitro experiment right? Cultured human fiberglass individual. Yeah. Okay. How confident are you that it translates into meaningful skin outcomes in humans? I mean you can never be 100% confident but you know it's it's a concept and uh I think the science itself was really really compelling you know how this light delivers delivery system impacted collagen production so you know why not if you've got a continuous wave example in there and it's underperforming compared to these specific pulse patterns why would you not want to incorporate that specific pulse pattern to give yourself an advantage >> yeah no fair enough and then so how difficult was it from a technical side of the side of the equation? How difficult was it to build this into the mask? I mean I know like to start with you you've got to find I mean you >> you you've got to recognize that all LED equipment is is really you know produced in in Asia. Um so you're dealing with you know a different language to start with. So, you've got to find the right manufacturing partner to work with. And you know who we work with, Alex, and they're the leading manufacturer in in Asia who produce many of the LED brands that we, you know, know and love. And the CEO is is Dutch. So, [laughter] that makes um, you know, communications so much easier um to to say, "Look, this is this is the concept. This is what I want to do. Can you do it?" I I went and visited the um the factory, had many conversations with them and plus zoom calls beyond and it's it's a very slow development process and and testing um many iterations. So this has been a labor of love for two years to actually develop and you know produce this this mask and I've developed it from the ground up. Not just the engineering side but the whole aesthetic and the and the fit and all of those things and I couldn't honestly couldn't have chosen a a better manufacturing partner to work with. Was it easy? Absolutely no it was not easy. Um, but they have an an amazing engineering team who know their stuff and and they can talk on the same level. You know, if I tried to do that with other companies, I don't think I would have got there in five years, let alone two. >> So, this is the aura mask that you're referring to. Yeah. The your recent. So, a lot of panels these days will have a custom pulsing option from one hertz through to a th00and hertz, I think it is, maybe 2,000. So, when you say you'd like to use a a panel that's got standard pulsing, what do you mean by that? I mean, is there a standard number 100 Hz or something? >> Standard pulsing. Um, I mean, you've got many panels out there that are using 10 hertz and 100 hertz. I'm not aware of many that do micro pulsing in the thousands, but if you've got some, you you're the expert in the panels, Alex. So, [laughter] >> there are some I'll be real quick. There are some panels that at least on the box uh they allow you to go up to a th00and hertz or thereabouts. I've never tested it. I don't know if they're accurate because yeah, that's that's very fun. So yeah. Anyway, but uh yeah, so standard pulsing video would be >> standard pulsing. What I'm talking about is a 50% duty cycle. So the light being on and off for 50% of the time. So we refer back to the intelligent micropulsing for a second. What you can see is you've got these specific pulse structures. So it's quite a complex message. It's not just on off on off for equal amount of time. You've got this pulse duration and then a pulse interval. Now they're not necessarily the same width, but it's just represented in that way here. And then a big gap between these pulse trains. So when I referred to standard pulsing, basically it would just be on off on off. So think of it a little bit like Morse code, you know, uh standard pulsing is is just simply dot dot dot. Yeah. Whereas um intelligent micropulsing is is a complete message. It's kind of dot dash dash dot dot dot dash dash you know it's kind of like that sends a very complex message to the cell that the cell wakes up recognizes responds and then is ready immediately for the next one. >> Okay. And so when light is pulsed that's going to impact the amount of light the amount of light energy delivered to the tissue right because as we just saw there's periods where it's off micro seconds but still that must impact the energy output. So does that impact how you come up with your treatment protocols? Does it impact is this accounted for even in the studies in the research like hey we're delivering 8 jewels over centimeters squ squ squ squ squ squ squ squ squ squ squ squ squ squ squ squ squ squ squ squ squared now we're pulsing so that means we need to run the treatment time for 50% longer is that incorporated in the research and do you account for that in your product design as well >> I think that's a really great question Alex um so one thing to be aware of with with pulsing is that you can safely increase the peak power um because the light is on and off. You know, it's not the same as sort of treating the skin continuous. So, if you've got sensitive skin or you're melasma prone, potentially you would deliver too much energy to the skin. With peak, because you've got these cooling periods in between the pulse, you can safely increase the peak power. So, that's what we do. So according to the duty cycle, we increase the peak power of the pulse so that you get the same dosing over the same treatment time. So we do compensate for that in aura. >> So is there anything else related to pulsing that you want to share? Maybe something I've missed. Um I think we've pretty much covered it, Alex, but um in my research I did come across this image which I thought was really interesting and a fantastic comparison between the impact of continuous wave um LED and and pulseed LED. And this was one a study that Barlay did on crest syndrome. So that's kind of um sclerosis where you get thinning of the blood vessels and um fibrosis you deposits of collagen and then calcium buildup in the skin. If you look at this image you know this was a patient that was treated over 13 weeks. On the left you can see that they were treated with continuous wave and there isn't much difference in the calcium buildups in the arm and then on the right hand side you've got the pulse wave and the reduction in the calcium deposits was really significant and I think that was just such a a powerful image to kind of demonstrate the potential difference between continuous wave and pulsing with LED with the same parameter. So this was 940 nanometer um LED used over 13 weeks. So do you firmly believe that the benefits that red light therapy can produce on the body can be heightened improved using pulsing like it's not just collagen >> categorically I I really believe it can you know it's when you think about bio stimulation in general you know we're looking to get more ATP production aren't we regardless of application we want more ATP we want more cell proliferation in general whether we're looking at you know wound healing repair in general. And going back to that bifphasic dose response, we can see the impact of prolonged stimulation with continuous wave relative to what happens when you use a pulse light emission. you know, you get this ability to kind of dissipate the free radicals between those pulses and that drives a more effective biological response and you know greater efficacy for whatever application you're using it for. There will always be studies where pulse doesn't give you an advantage. You know the science is never 100% and I think we have to make that you know clear to individuals. Um I think there were a couple of studies around neurological applications where it didn't work so well. So maybe something with um you know with neurons it didn't work so well. But who's to say it's still relatively early days but I love that more and more researchers are jumping on the the pulse LED bandwagon using that in their studies and they're using it for good reason. Alex. >> Yeah. So look I will be honest with you. I um you've sparked the interest uh I'll take a deeper dive into this myself because it has been a long time since I did look at the research years ago and I didn't even look at some of the stuff you know the the um intelligent micropuls I I mean I wasn't even aware of it so I I like I have to I have to take another deep dive into this and yeah um some of these studies you you've mentioned I want to I want to have a read and and pull pull up the data and seeing what's uh yeah seeing what's been said out there in the scientific community and I will do that I will do that uh I'll do that for the community I'll do it for you and share share our reports I know you have a lot of amazing resources over on your website on this topic so look if yeah if anyone wants to take a deeper dive uh definitely head over there I'll put all the links down below um look I think we've done a pretty good job covering covering um pulsing at least for now. Maybe we should do a round two in a year or two after I have a better understanding as well. Uh that would be cool. I want to move on because there are a few other topics I want to touch on. Let's talk about a radiance and masks and testing. Now, uh recently I I published a review of your mask, which by the way, um I I put that on and I was like, "This is this is cool. I I was comfortable. I love the control system. I was like, if I designed the mask, it would be just like this. Um, it was, yeah, design-wise really, really good. The one issue I had in terms of my review, anyone that's watched it will, yeah, it was pretty evident was my takeaway was that it was underpowered. Now, you and I have had a lot of back and forth around this, and I've enjoyed that. Uh, it's it's been a learning process for me. Sorry to interrupt, but if you've found value in this, hit the like button. Also, head over to Light Therapy Insiders and jump on our email list because we put out a lot of red light therapy content that's even better than the content on this YouTube channel. Links are all down below. And what happened is I take I use a spectrometer, a Hanel spectrometer, and I take a bunch of readings across this masks when I test masks. I I've been doing it for years with panels. panels work really well because it's a square rectangle, flat plane, nice and easy. You just take a lot of metric, a lot of readings, and you get an average. Of course, with a mask, a lot of the masks these days that are contoured like your your or mask, um it's hard to get the readings. The other thing is masks are worn typically on the skin, right on the face. So, what happens is you get a really high reading right above the LED, but then a really low reading when you move away from the LED. And then my average came in on the lower side. I mean, there's a lot of masks out there that are a lot lower. Um, and then what I do is I take that average radiance figure and I use the default time that the mask is running, which the aura was 6 minutes. I do some basic math and I get a figure which is your dose the amount of light energy delivered to the skin and that came in again on the lower side. Now you and I have talked about this uh you hats off to you. You have done an amazing job sending your your mask off to various labs not just mine. And I know you've taken a really deep dive into understanding what's going on in terms of how the LEDs work, how the power's delivered, how companies are testing them, but more importantly what the end user needs because it doesn't really matter like what the numbers are. It's it's whether it's going to work or not. So that's the context for for someone that hasn't seen the review. Do you want to share any insights or ask me questions? >> Absolutely. I think it would be be good to delve a little bit deeper on that. So, you know, firstly, thank you, Alex, for sort of giving us the heads up on on your your findings because then it allowed us to go away and do that independent testing. Um, so we shared with you the integrating sphere testing um which for your viewers gives us a a total radiant flux, which is basically the radiance of the whole mass, isn't it? And as you say, you then use math to to calculate the the figures of dividing the um total mask irradiance by the area um of the total mask or by the area of the LEDs themselves and then come up with those two figures. Now the issue with that is whilst you said to me it's kind of gold standard, you know, this integrating sphere testing, it can only be gold standard if kind of everybody's using it and there is an agreed protocol. Uh and that's kind of where it falls down because you know in theory the only measurement that you get from that is the total radiance flux you know the overall figure. Once you start breaking it down you can't then make comparisons to other masks because no other mask has actually done that test published the results and then broken that figure down which includes 100% of the white space doesn't it? You know which you wouldn't get if you were using it with a spectra radiometer. So, um, I did go back to Mike to sort of try and Mike from Light Lab who who did this independent testing to sort of ask him, well, what does it really mean and and how does this compare to other LED masks that you've compared um, you've tested? And, you know, clearly Mike couldn't reveal other brands that he's worked with, you know, for client confidentiality. What but what I found really encouraging was that Mike did say to us look of all the masks of all the LED masks that we've tested they fall into two groups you know low power higher power of those two groups aura falls into the higher power group so I found that very encouraging and it's probably the only comparator that we can really take from integrating sphere testing to be fair because as I say there's no other shared published data from other LED masks where you can directly compare it. So probably the better comparator is the spectro radiometer results which I sent you and I appreciate that these probably did not land with you in time for your video review that you did. So those are you know landed a few days subsequent to your recording. Um, and in talking with PIO, who are a light photonix company in in France, who are specialized in in spectro radiometer meetings because Mike couldn't do that testing for me. There's there's a really critical point which I think we we need to need to flag. So when they they they stress very clearly that the device needs to be calibrated so that the the entry optic that's the aperture that measures the light is what they call overfilled that basically it is smaller than the LEDs that it's only measuring the LED. Yeah. And so they calibrated to do this specific test they calibrated their spectro radiometer with a 4 mm aperture. Now when they did that the radiance radant they got was 52.7 m per centime squared. So actually higher than you know even the product specification that we work to. Um, by way of illustration, they then redid the test with a 9 mm aperture. So, they increased the size of the um the entry optic so that it actually flooded over the size of the LED. When they did that, they got a reading of 10.8 mwatts per centimeter squared. So, it shows the difference that you get. And you know as you've already flagged Alex the problem is there is no standardized protocol in the industry. They also stated that if you take the spectro radiometer that you're using which is a hoper color he said the entry optic for that be is 10 mm which explains precisely why your reading again would be even lower than the 9 mm aperture reading that they got. So you'll get these different readings. But what it did show to me was that you know the 52.7 mills was above what um our brand manufacturer works with. Um again it shows that you know aperture is the key factor. So their aperture would fall between the 4 millimeter reading where they got the 52.7 and the 9 millimeter reading where they got the 10.8 because we get 26 mill. But what's most important to me is that, you know, we're working with a a leading manufacturer who works to ISO 13485, which is the, you know, the the quality standard for beauty tech. They share the data with us for every production run and it's within the tolerance limit that we need. So regardless of how the device is calibrated, we're hitting that target every time. Now I think the other thing that you raised which is quite an important discussion point is you mentioned that you kind of maybe prefer a panel because it kind of then diffuses the light and you get this more even light distribution and what I wanted to raise is that the silicon is a really really important part of the LED device that white space isn't completely dead space. So when you're using, you know, it's really the difference between contact LED, an LED mask, and non-cont LED, a panel, when you're using contact LED, that silicon serves a purpose. So the light goes from the LED, hits your skin, and a lot of it is reflected. When it hits the white silicon, and it has to be white silicon, ignore any brand that uses black silicon, that's ridiculous. Um, white silicon, it reflects it back to the skin. So what you get is photon recycling. So the dose that you measure in terms of a radiance or a radiance that you measure, it's not just that that you're getting, Alex. And that's the difference between an LED mask and an LED panel. You know, this one you get far more photon recycling. You'll get a little bit of that if you're maybe sat three inches away from your white panel, not a black one. >> [laughter and gasps] >> So notice that misama's pulse LED for pulse 40 LED panel is white not black for that reason photo recycling is important also the other element is what we call optical coupling and this is why the fit of the mask is so so important and again you know you mentioned oh I don't know whether I prefer a mask sitting a few centimeters away from the skin and get better diffusion of that light absolutely not you know it's about we we used AI technology to really map out a female face. Yes, apologies. It doesn't fit your chin strap doesn't fit you so well. It is engineered for a female face. Um, and the reason for that is we want to optimize optical coupling. That is where as many LEDs or silicon touches the face as possible. And this is to do with it's very scientific. It's to do with refractive index. If you take the refractive index of the silicon or an LED, it's around 1.6. six the same or very close to that of skin. Wherever you've got an air gap, you've got a mismatch and so you get light reflection. Where you've got optical coupling where it's literally touching, you lose nothing through reflection and light scatter. So 100% of that light energy goes into skin. So LED masks are very different to LED panels and bring those additional benefits of photon recycling and optical coupling if they're a good fit. Yeah. And I think it's also important to point out the obvious difference as well. A mask you can be walking around the house vacuuming, reading a book, a practical application. Um, and I I always touch on that as well. Uh, it's it's crazy because there's just so many different variables. Like I've been reviewing panels for years and like I mentioned earlier that's tricky but then it's so simple compared to a mask because it's it's just a rectac panel. Um the other thing I I think I touched on maybe I didn't but I need to touch on I know I have in the comments is light scattering. Like there is a school of thought out there that it doesn't really matter if there are hot spots, you know, like a lot of light is delivered here and not over here because when the light hits the tissue, it spreads, it scatters, it's absorbed, it's, you know, and that it makes sense. I mean, I've looked at some research on it. I mean even uh photobomb modulation radiation where they're just shining light on you know veins arteries literally there's a company that sells an IV you know you you put a fiber optic >> into the blood you radiate the blood and that's shown to be beneficial right so and the benefits are across the whole body not just that one particular blood vessel so we know that that's that's a mechanism that's happening which again like maybe you only need five, six LEDs, you know, one here, one here, one here, and they're powerful enough and they're right on the surface of the skin and boom, it's going to work. I >> I do think the distribution of LEDs is important as you stressed. You certainly want good coverage and I prefer LED to laser delivery because it is non-coherent light, so it spreads out. So, you do get, you know, that coverage sort of in between the, you know, the white spaces as well. Whereas a laser is coherent, you know, it's light direct. So it is a you know there's always going to be a compromise isn't there and every individual product whether it be a panel or a mask has its own merits. >> Yeah. No agree 100% agree. And I just want to say like there's so many complexities to it all. Uh at the end of the day though people the the good thing is we know red light therapy works right like it's there's thousands of studies on it. There's so many like user case anidotes on online and stuff as well. It's like you're looking at the the the fringe like, "Oh, is it 5 minutes or 7 minutes? Is it 6:30 or 650?" Like, you kind of I mean, it's what I have to do because it's what my channel's about, right? It's it's not just red light therapy versus, I don't know, like a sunscreen or a particular serum or something like that. But it it it's crazy. It is a little bit crazy. I I a takeaway from this process. I actually think I I think that if you do one test because the problem is no not no company's doing all this testing, right? So that's why hats off to you because you've gone out and you've done all this and you're sharing all the data which is awesome. So a consumer can actually look at the figures, they can look at the studies and they can come to their own conclusions. Even if you have the numbers like you said and you understand them, it still doesn't mean you can figure out okay cool this is how I should use it because the science is not settled on dosing anyway. I mean it never will be. That's how science works. But literally like you have some professors saying look you should have a dose of X and then another professor coming out saying no it should be 5X and you know it's such a confusing space >> depends on application doesn't it? Whether you're targeting superficial tissue skin or whether you're looking for heat tissue. Doing isn't um isn't just fluence. It isn't just irradiance times treatment time. Doing is about that the fluence. And then in addition how is that light you know how much of that light is getting into skin. So that's where we go beyond you know what's the radiance figure and time is it by the treatment time to get fluence that then takes into account you know how close >> what kind of skin contact do you have and what is the delivery mechanism for the light because our intelligent micropulsing technology isn't just working on irradiance it's working on it's working with biology. So, how do you factor all those things in? >> You can't. I mean, well, I can't anyway. It's Yeah, it's And then you've also got things like skin tone, skin color, um moisture levels on the skin. Like all of these things actually, as you mention skin color, um you know, we're a really inclusive company and we recognize that a lot of darker skinned individuals have have shied away from red light therapy. When I say red light, I mean red and near infrared. Um, and it's largely because they can be prone to melasma. And so, you know, we actually configure our mask so that you can isolate the wavelength. So, you can use red only and near infrared. And I've done a bit of a deep dive on this, Alex, and come up with, it's only theory, but in terms of who should use what and why. And we do recommend that dark-kinned individuals if they are melasmaparap prone that they work with near infrared only because it's that longer wavelength that then bypasses the melanin rich epidermis and kind of works from the inside out without triggering pigmentation on the surface. So they can do that, you know, with Aura or with Prana. But the beauty of doing it with Aura is that you press the button and and go and you know that the treatment time's already been extended. Um, and it should in theory give you the right dosing. And I know you know we talked about dosing and we we state this nine jewels on our website which is calculated from the radiance of 26 mill. But if you even if you take the data from PIO you know working with that um irradiance of 52.7 then their dosing comes out at around 18 jewels. So you know either or you're delivering sufficient light energy to that target tissue. >> Yeah. and and the benefits. I mean, we've looked at skincare benefits uh from looking at dosing and for the ideal skincare benefits and the range it's not like at 3.5 to four, you know, the range is massive. It's like three all the way up to 20 something. Even beyond that, you're still seeing benefits. It's not that you you have to be perfect otherwise you get no results. Which is why >> it's an optical window dose window. For me, one key takeaway from all of this is I would like to try and come up with some form of standard standard for testing mask at least for for my reviews. And I think the integrating sphere is probably look, I just did an interview with Mike the other day and he said there is no one standard. Like you need all sorts of things. You need to see the full picture to to get the true result. But I thought if you could use an integrating sphere, it will show you all the light that's being delivered, right? And then you factor in, you know, LED placement, how many LEDs, and you can kind of, you could then even use software to determine the area of the mask, and then you can do a rough calculation and be like, okay, cool. It's putting out X. We know this is the amount of powders delivered. We know this is the size. Okay, we can get a rough idea. Anyway, so well that's cool and I I appreciate all the insights and you know I appreciate what you've done and I will be doing an updated mask uh comparison hopefully this year 2026. I'm working with Mike to try and figure out how we can do this >> own what you're trying to do with setting these standardized protocols but it is extremely challenging. I mean our manufacturing partner also has integrating sphere and they did their own tests and depending on how you position that mask it it completely changes the result and I think it's very difficult to standardize it. You might be able to get Mike to standardize it for, you know, um, for all the masks that he tests, but then to get another independent laboratory to position the mask in the same way. You know, where it is within the intubating sphere, which way it's facing completely changes the result. And that's very, very difficult to control. So, I think the intubating sphere testing is interesting, but I don't know how repeatable it is lab to lab. Whereas the spectra radiometer, I think providing it's calibrated and the even if they just calibrate them differently, but they they actually specify what the aperture is, that would be a step further forward and that would probably be more comparable data in the short term than trying to establish integrating sphere testing standards. >> But then my understanding with that radiometer reading, it's a snapshot, right? It's one point. >> It is one point. Yeah. However, you take that into context with as you say the number of LEDs so the distribution of LEDs but on the point of number of LEDs Alex um >> when you you discussed story you mentioned that we have 155 dual core and then therefore you know contains red and infrared therefore 310 LEDs strictly speaking the LED contains it's double core it contains the red and the near infrared so if you're looking at the number you know an LED can contain a number number of wavelengths and number of cores and that might be four different light emitters different colors. So if you had a mask that had red, amber, near infrared, blue for example, they wouldn't necessarily very unlikely to all be on at the same time. So if you're saying something has 600 LEDs, it may actually be 150 um you know four core le um LEDs, not 600. And I think when you're doing the comparisons, it would be good to just literally look at the number of LEDs and the number of cores within that for a more a tighter comparison. And may I may I mention about wavelength and our choice because you did say I don't know why they haven't include amber or um deep infrared. >> Yeah, of course. >> Okay. >> Yeah. Yeah. I love that was one of my questions. So yeah. >> Yeah. So we in in terms of what wavelength we put into the mask, it's it's actually tied to the 510k license of our manufacturing partner. It's not as scientific as perhaps you would want it to be. So with Prana, for example, our manufacturing partner has 510K license for 660 nanometer red and 850 nanometer near infrared. So we work with those two wavelengths. With Aura, our manufacturing partner has 510K license for 630 near infrared and 830 near infrared. So, we work with those two wavelengths. I don't use amber because they don't have 510K license for amber and I'm selling into the US and US is our biggest market. I don't use deep near infrared through choice. It was offered to me through um for aura. However, I'm for me the science is not validated. I mean, that's a a conversation for another time, but I'm not sold on um deeply infrared actually giving a better result for light penetration because you lose a lot of the efficacy with that longer wavelength being absorbed by bulk water in the skin which reduces the efficacy. >> Yeah. No, I look going into this upcoming mask panel uh mask comparison, not panel, sorry. Um, I've learned a lot since I did my last one. And I've learned a lot since I built that review template out. So, I'm totally overhauling it. Like, clean slate, back to the basics. And I suppose I have to be careful with what I say here because I haven't even started doing it yet. But yes, I I personally, it may change, but I personally for skin cosmetic aesthetic benefits, I I I I wouldn't use or I wouldn't develop a mask that has, you know, 1060 in it. I I actually think a big reason we're seeing a lot of it out there is purely marketing. Like look, we've got this and this and this and this and we've got this as well. Um and that's just how the world works. Uh I wouldn't use amber in a panel like for my training benefits and recovery. I don't see that. Would I include it for um masked skin? Maybe. still still on the fence with that one because there is some >> but do those benefits actually bring us anything in addition to red and near infrared that's question whereas red and near infrared have complimentary but distinct benefits they work at different levels whereas amber it's going to do what red and near infrared already do but possibly to a lesser extent. >> Yeah. No, and that's yeah that's what I was going to say like there's research showing it's beneficial. However, a lot of the research also shows the same paper shows that they had similar benefits or maybe slightly less with just 630 for instance. So, look, it's yeah, it's it's crazy. And then blue, that's just for your acne. I mean there is a little bit of I think uh Scott Kennedy from light path LED you know talked about how blue can also help some other mechanisms and all of that but primarily when it comes to skin you know if you don't have suff from acne then it's not really necessary and of course I wouldn't be using the blue wavelengths in the power radiance figures and all of that because that just throws things off >> with aura um you know we were more focused on more mature ladies um and they're typically not at that stage of life where acne is an issue. You know, if they're looking to to treat acne um as a younger individual, then we would just direct them to Prana, which is probably more the the right price point for somebody who is, you know, introduced to LED at that point. >> I'm conscious of the time. I do have a few quick fire questions. Well, they're quick questions, but you answer them as long as you want. Uh the you mentioned, you know what? You mentioned Proner. Why don't you give people a rundown of all the products you sell? what their use case is, you know, why someone should buy one over the other. >> Yeah, [snorts] sure. Um, well, I mean, my first love was the LED panel, which is our Pulse 40 panel. I think for anyone that, you know, we're starting out with LED, it's it's a great choice because, you know, not everybody is comfortable with something touching their skin, which I certainly wasn't at the beginning because I have rosacea and so you that was quite alien to me. I still go back to the panel periodically because of the additional, you know, hertz um frequencies that it offers with pulse and also when I'm doing micro needling because then I want non-cont LED. I don't want anything touching my skin after, you know, putting needles into my skin. So, if you've got incl clinic treatments, something like the pulse 40 panel is perfect. We moved on to Prana because our community were were asking, you know, for an LED mask. And I think it was a fantastic entry point for us and also for consumers just looking to start out with LED. It gives you red and near infrared together, the two wavelengths we discussed earlier. Plus, um, you've got blue in there, so you can target acne should you wish to. It is a wraparound, um, mask. It's a silicon mask, so it's it's super lightweight. It's actually half the weight of the Prana. Um, so sorry half the weight of the aura. Although you wouldn't really notice the weight of aura because it's so well supported. But um, Prana is not a cordless um, mask. It has a controller, a handheld controller. A lot of our community prefer that because they can see where they're up to on their treatment time. They can customize it. It's standard pulsing. It pulses with a 50% duty cycle on, off, on, off, but that's not visible to the naked eye. It's operates at 100 Hz invisible. So, really simple to use and that's a great starting point for anybody. Um, retails at £265. Um, I always forget the dollars, forgive me. Moving on to Aura, it takes what we've done with Prana up a level. We're moving into cordless technology. We're moving into a 3D contoured fit. We've talked about the importance of skin contact for light delivery. And it takes pulsing into this new generation of intelligent micropulsing which is looking to align with the way that your cells naturally respond to light to create greater efficiency and a more effective biological response. >> You have a lot of experience in the skin care serum space. A question, should people use it with the red light therapy treatment? Should they clean the skin, put it on afterwards? What do you recommend? I mean earlier you talked about how delivery of the was it the Royos? Did I say that right? >> Royos. Royos. >> Robos. Yeah. >> Was improved with polyine. So obviously you're putting it on before. >> Yeah. You're a human. >> Yeah. The two complement each other. In fact, we've just got FC testing back on our pulse 40 panel which shows that when you use when you pre-apply the Green Royal serum, it improves outcomes by 31% relative to just using the panel alone. And the panel alone was uplifting um you know, skin rejuvenation by more than 15%. So, you know, there's some hard data behind that. And I I love that the two together just it shows how they work, you know, um they complement each other in terms of their their action. There's a lot of science behind the Roy Bossing Green because we work really closely with the Nelson Mandel Institute on research collaborations. Before I even launched my summer as a brand, we looked, we compared the green roy boss extract to green tea and the data that came back from that was so compelling. It just inspired me to launch misama as as you know, the serum initially. And as I said, Alex, that got picked up so close, you know, so quickly for use with red light therapy. Um, which then took us on a entirely different journey, um, which I love. So skin care, you really do need to hydrate your skin before you do LED because when the skin is hydrated, it creates a more even canvas for the for the light. So the light is absorbed better when your skin is hydrated. Antioxidants have a a special role. You know, they help to buffer um free radicals produced by LED. that's not so important with pulsing because as you know the pulsing already does that element for you but royos in its own right actually um improves the health the mitochondria um it also drives glycolysis that produces all those other elements that you need the building blocks for cell regeneration so it has so many comp complimentary actions with LED >> uh Viv it's been a great conversation it's evident you know a lot about this topic, especially the pulsing I have learned a lot and hopefully all the viewers have as well. I really appreciate it and again uh I appreciate the back and forth with we've had over the last few weeks and months. Um it's it's raised my understanding on this topic and it will influence you know what I do going forward in terms of reviews and testing. So thank you. Uh I am looking forward to yeah getting this out and I'm sure a lot of people will benefit from it. Where can people uh find you? Is it misama.com? nissamo.com takes you to the US site. If you're in the UK or EU, it automatically redirects you. >> Okay, awesome. Well, thank you very much and happy birthday. Enjoy your birthday in a couple weeks time as well. It's a big one. So, I hope you celebrate properly. >> Thank you so much, Alex. It's been a pleasure. Thank you.