Can a new Secretary-General push the UN into a new, better direction? | American View

All right, here we go. Three, two, one. Now, the annual United Nations General Assembly is just around the corner with world leaders descending on New York to talk through the problems facing the world. But how much of a problem is the UN itself? And can a new secretary general to be elected in the coming weeks or months redirect the institution? We'll be joined by veteran US diplomat Robert Wood, the former deputy ambassador to the UN to get the American view. Ambassador Robert Wood, thank you so much for taking the time to join us here. Uh, you know, the UN is a complicated institution to begin with. You live through it through very complicated times. Can you give us an assessment from the US perspective? Because the Trump administration kind of has this like hate relationship with the UN about where things stand right now from the American side heading in to the UN General Assembly and kind of what what you pretend the future to hold uh for the US UN relationship. >> Well, thanks very much for having me, Mike. Uh look, the US relationship with the UN has always been complicated and uh this particular year I I think the UN is at a very serious crossroads. Uh the US uh government has made very clear that the UN needs to reform. It needs to reform drastically. Uh it has clearly withheld money uh to try to bring about further reforms. Uh and I think uh coinciding uh with the election uh sometime later this year of uh a new secretary general um is actually an opportunity uh because um the UN and I think this is the view of many in New York uh needs to change. Something has to give here. And so for me uh the new se with the election of a new secretary general it's going to be an opportunity for us for the UN to get back into the business of maintaining international peace and security. it seems to have drifted away from that and I think there's a lot of dissatisfaction on the part of countries from the global south from the global north uh that the UN has kind of lost its way and needs to dive back in very seriously into the issue of trying to end and mitigate wars. So again, the US I I think is trying to increase pressure on UN bureaucracy to reform. Uh member states understand the need for there to be reform of the institution. So what it's going to take is to have the right secretary general in place to help drive a lot of these reforms. It's not going to be easy. Uh if it were easy, the UN would have been reformed a long time ago. But I think uh the admin Trump administration is trying to build on the U uh Secretary General Gutierrez's UN80 initiative to try to reform the UN. A good first step, but so much more needs to be done. But I do think uh the Trump administration sees this as an opportunity to push very hard for reform. Uh and again, with the coming election of a new Secretary General, if we get the right person, um we could really make some progress on UN reform. you know, the Trump admin has has not been shy about pushing for reforms internally in the US, outwardly toward the rest of the world. Previous administrations and and you worked in some of them, I mean, did they not see the need for these reforms? Were they more worked on behind the scenes? Was there push back from within the UN that just didn't make these things possible? I mean, why are we at the kind of the point we're at right now? I >> think it's all of the above, Mike. I I think it's just been a uh over the years uh there's clearly been seen by administration after administration that the UN needs to reform uh that its budget was growing much larger uh that it was being viewed worldwide as becoming more and more ineffective. But also at the same time there's been an understanding and I think the Trump administration sees this now as well that there is some utility in the UN that the UN can be used uh to achieve uh not only just certain American uh foreign policy objectives but also that it contributes to the greater global good. Uh the the question has always been how to reform it and how quickly. It's not just an issue of reforming the secretariat, its programs, etc. But it's also member states because you've got 193 UN member states that have their own different visions of what reform should be. Uh and to try to get countries to agree on a set of reform proposals is very difficult. And again, one of the problems, not to defend the secretariat at all, but when you have each every year all of these new mandates being imposed by either the UN security council, the general assembly, uh the trusteeship uh council, it becomes extremely difficult for the team to manage and implement all of these mandates. So there needs to be an understanding amongst uh the 193 member states uh that there has to be reform. They've got to come to some kind of an agreement on how to limit these mandates. Uh but there also has to be a clear understanding on the part of the secretary general and the staff that it's not going to be business as usual. Uh that member states are calling for the secretary to reform itself. But again, I'm I'm pointing you toward what I think is a what's crystallizing as a unique opportunity in the history of the UN where you've got a new secretary general that's going to be elected. a lot of demands coming from various member states for the UN to reform. So, it's a real opportunity. I hope we can all seize this opportunity to make a difference, but we'll have to see how that plays out. >> You mentioned, I mean, the UN has just expanded well beyond what was pictured, you know, tens and uh, you know, 50 years ago, whatever it was. And so, we're at a point now where it handles so many different things beyond peacekeeping. And a lot of the issues that it handles are, I don't know if I would call them pet projects, but limited to certain parts of the world, not really global issues per se. One could make the case at least. I mean, where do you kind of find that balance between simply keeping it a peacekeeping institution and expanding it to the point where there are there are global issues that need to be worked on? Where is kind of that that line between keeping it within its mandate and and just kind of letting it balloon to the point we got now? Where is that cut off point essentially? >> That's a good question, Mike. That that's a real hard one to answer where that cut off point is, but you know, there are the three pillars, maintaining international peace and security, human rights, uh, and, uh, the focus on, uh, humanitarian affairs and to try to find that happy medium. I don't know that we can ever do that. I think because like the US government and many other governments and the UN uh it's the crisis of the moment that occupies and seizes uh the the time of diplomats and secretariat officials. So, um it it's kind of hard, but I think again what I've heard from many many uh governments uh represented in New York is that there has been a move away from the focus on mitigating um wars and solving conflict and the UN clearly the message that is being sent is that we need to respond to these demands. They're growing demands. um the humanitarian uh issues that we face that are many of which are the product of wars um uh have to be dealt with as well. Uh and um it's going to take a lot of effort on the part of a new secretary general to try to lead on some of these issues. Uh because you'll have again you have these divisions uh what's more important is it international peace and security, human rights, humanitarian um issues. uh and I think you just have to find that balance. But again, the UN is a a body of governments and and governments uh have to deal with their political domestic political situations and of course foreign crisis as they happen. So I I don't think we it's going to be hard to kind of find that balance, but I think as you're dealing with these crises um you have to put your emphasis on dealing with the crisis at hand. Um, yes, you have to think long term. Uh, and the UN tries to do that, but again, member states drive the discussions. They drive the focus uh in New York. And so, um, could have stopped earlier and answer your question saying it's complicated and it's a good question, Mike. uh but there is a need for some leadership coming from uh the 38th floor in the UN secretariat and this will be a new opportunity I think with the election of this new secretary general as I've said uh to help shape and lead on some of these priorities. I hopefully I'll have another good question here because sometimes I try to explain the UN to our viewers and they they they like what and I'm giving you one example here because you mentioned human rights and the kind of how it fits in to the broader structure of the UN and how it's still very high on the um the agenda list. You have the secretary general and everybody thinks if they're not following the UN, everybody thinks the secretary general is the boss. He's the top. He's the CEO. But in reality, you have the human rights council which operates in a completely different location and in a completely different structure is largely run by desperates and human rights abusers, dictators. The western democracies have a few seats at the table, but certainly not close to the majority. And the human rights council is essentially not answerable to the secretary general in any way, shape, or form. You try to explain that to people and it looks like their eyes are going to pop out of their heads. Has there ever been a movement to kind of try to rein in and centralize some of these uh uh bodies that kind of operate on on the periphery and and outside of the kind of the um the the the structure of what is typically, you know, an organizational structure? Yeah, of course, Mike. There have been um efforts in the past to try to deal with um these kind of kind of I'd say outdated and u frankly um extremely politically challenging issues that um for example the one that I hear about as I'm sure you've heard about is uh the human uh the UN rep special reperators uh that do not report to the secretary general they report to the human rights council and Francesca Alban whom I'm sure your audience is quite familiar with, who's been uh very been speaking out in a very anti- uh Seemetic way. And that's certainly how it's been interpreted by a number of people uh frankly including myself. Um, and there's very little that the secretary general can do other than to go to the special rapa tour and say, you know, what you're uh what you're speaking from the podium uh and the the way you're doing it is hurtful and it's not helpful to the UN's mission. uh and but that's about the extent of what the secretary general can do because these special rapours are basically chosen uh initially by uh at least a list of names of potential rapours for a given issue um are presented by this regional group uh regional grouping uh and the list goes forward to the president of the human rights council who will then uh take a look at that list uh consult with um you know uh his or uh uh advisers and others and then put a list forward uh to uh uh the human rights council. Uh and so it's it's a real challenge u when you have someone a secretary general that supposedly oversees the the whole UN system but in reality doesn't. Uh and so but how do you get it's hard to get a coalition of voices to say wait this doesn't make sense where you have the secretary general uh who oversees that UN system and and you have a problem like U Miss Albanese and you can't do anything about it uh other than just say you know Miss Alan please stop with your anti-Semitic rhetoric. Um so it's just one of these things that um uh is very difficult to crack. But I think again bringing uh to the public um some of the problems that exist in the UN system and trying to explain it uh in in a very you know straightforward manner is is a step in the right direction and uh the UN is more and more sensitive to public uh uh criticism and and public concerns. So u there is hope that this system eventually will be reformed but until now I think uh we're kind of stuck unfortunately with the way it is. >> Well speaking of the next secretary general who won't have control of half half of the UN. Uh there's a race going on right now and it's kind of in seemingly the middle of its throws right now. A number of candidates uh threw their name uh into the hat. Several have come out pretty scathed so far and on the verge it would seem of dropping out. But there's this kind of informal rotation among the secretary uh general um elections where it it rotates by region. Now, it doesn't always work out that way, but that's the essential plan. That's the way it's supposed to be. And this year, this time around, it's supposed to favor draw candidates from Latin America and the Caribbean. That's supposed to be where the next secretary secretary general comes from, according to the rotation. And of course, the UN has never had a woman secretary general. I I maybe others won't say, I'll say women are usually the general pe better peacemakers to begin with. So many saying it's high time that a woman is brought on board to run the organization. You put those two things together and right now the three leading candidates according to the straw polls that have been taken so far of the security council are all women from Latin America and the Caribbean. It's still far from over though. None of those three have drawn enough votes and support yet to claim victory. So, we could still see um some last minute candidates, some dark horses enter the race. Again, it's a complicated process. How do you see this shaking out? >> Well, Mike, it is a complicated process and there are some very good candidates out there. I I would just correct you on one thing. I think uh there is a male and u who's one of the three leading candidates uh Rafael GCI um also from Latin America. Um look I think again with the UN's future being very much in question uh what's really going to be important here is not whether it's a man or woman that becomes the next secretary general. It's do we have the right the best candidate to deal with the incredible number of crises we have around the globe. uh and uh the the call by as I said earlier by states from the global north and global south for a secretary general to be seized with uh the maintenance of international peace and security. Um this is a a time where we need somebody who's got the kind of track record and experience in dealing with crisis uh around the globe. Um to be somebody who's very seriously considered um as I said the UN's reputation is at stake here. Um the future of the United Nations in general is at stake here and that's why this is such a critical election and I do not believe that we um again we we need to focus on getting the best candidate. Um this is the 81st year of the UN's existence. Um and as I said a lot of people believe that the UN has lost its way. Uh and you've got great power conflict going on at the UN. you have got growing um humanitarian crisis as I said earlier many many wars um we've got to have somebody who's going to take that leadership who's going to work with uh the security council particularly the the P5 who is going to going to show leadership uh in the global south so um that's that is what we have in front of us and and I do hope uh that Um while while I think all of us would agree it it's it's certainly important that at some point uh there will be a woman leading uh the United Nations um that cannot be as far as I see it that cannot be the basis for making uh a decision on who next leads the UN. It has to be uh the person best suited uh to deal with the maintenance of international peace and security. The Security Council is going to be the one that makes the decision in the end. And when you're dealing with the Security Council, you need nine out of the 15 members to agree, but the permanent five members, just as in any Security Council vote, can raise their hand, say, "I veto," and that's it. So, we're back to the same old thing with the Security Council here where you've got the US, you've got the Russians generally on opposite ends. The Chinese usually favor the Russians, you got the French and the British, they don't always agree with the US. And now you're in a situation where when you look at the polling so far of the security council, only one time has anybody gotten the nine votes yet that would have sealed the deal, but it's unclear if they would have cleared the five security council members. Everybody else in every vote has been below that threshold. Could we come to a situation where none of the candidates who have been running all along so far get the requisite support and and we wind up getting a new candidate toward the end that that can can garner the necessary support? I mean, it usually doesn't shake out this way. There's usually a clear early front runner. Not this time around. >> Yeah. Well, look, I think um how this is going to shake out uh is that right now the initial rounds of straw polling and we've had just two and we have a third one coming up I believe on September 18th. Um various members of the council are just kind of sticking out their positions, taking a look at the field. Um they may vote, they may have voted for someone right now that may shift. It depends on a number of things. Um, I do think uh that the current crop has some good candidates and I do think at the end of the day um we're going to we're going to see a secretary general named before uh at the end of the year. Um but you know the one thing the unknown right now of course is how the P5 vote because it's a secret ballot. Um it will only become clear once uh it's decided by uh the security council president to move to what they call the color uh coded voting which basically gives the the P5 they they vote with separate cards. So it's easier to uh to tell um you know how they cast their votes. So this race is uh very much still um uh undecided. Um, and uh, I think for for those of us who think that somehow um, the person in the lead is going to end up becoming the next Secretary General, um, we shouldn't kid ourselves. That is, uh, by no means any kind of a certainty. Uh, and so we'll get a sense after the next round on the 18th as to where this is likely to go. And then I would suspect, I could be wrong, but I would suspect uh that there will be a move after this next round of balloting to move uh in the next uh for the next round after that to the color-coded system. And that may mean that should mean that we are getting closer uh to determining who is actually going to be the next Secretary General. But again, this you could have a situation where after this next round, it's it's not yet becoming clear and uh there may be a call for some to let's open it up further uh and uh because we're not satisfied with the current group. I I suspect you'll have others may that may try to come in. uh but I think there is a real commitment uh to that it's Latin America's turn uh for the uh secretary generalship and I think certainly a number of P5 uh respect that and others on the council uh respect that regional rotation. Um but I do think there will become a as we move closer to decision time uh they will be looking at who is going to be the best uh candidate to take this organization forward given all its challenges uh given the concerns about the future. So and so I do think there will be in a timely fashion a decision made on the next secretary general. Of course, we got the UN General Assembly coming up amidst all of this uh chaos. What uh a week and a half from now uh the UN General Assembly rolls around in New York. You know, people see only the leaders up on the stage. They call it a a high level debate week. It's not really a debate per se. It's just everybody espousing their particular points of view and usually playing to their domestic audiences back home. But there's so much going on behind the scenes at the UN General Assembly. the bilateral meetings, the conferences, uh the different side events, usually uh pushing this agenda or that agenda. H how [laughter] how important is is what goes on not in the the general assembly hall, but everything else going on uh that week. H how important is that to the broader concept of the UN? >> It's critically important, Mike. That's where the real work is done. It's behind the scenes, the meetings that go on, and there are countless numbers of meetings that go on during high level week. really is uh a a a an important time for very serious diplomacy and a lot of serious diplomacy is done there. Um from the podium in the general assembly, yeah, there's a lot of posturing. Um there's also uh initiatives that are launched from there. Um uh there, you know, leaders that come uh and have specific bones to pick with either the United Nations or other states, regional groupings. So uh but that's important as well. But as you said behind this the meetings and the diplomacy that goes on behind the scenes that people don't see that's the critical element of uh UN diplomacy and why high level week is really an important time. It does try tie up traffic in New York City for uh terribly for a week. Um but there is actually real work being done. >> I want to go through a lightning round with you as we have about two minutes left here. And lightning rounds are difficult with diplomats because you're so diplomatic in your language, but I'm going to try. Secretary General Antonio Gutirez finishing up his term at the end of this year. Did he get the job done or no? >> You saying did he get the job done? >> Yeah. Uh uh that's a hard one to say. I think uh history will be the judge of that. He's a good man. Uh but uh a lot of missed opportunities. >> The US, should it pay its bills? >> Yes. How much leverage should it use in paying those bills or does it just know? >> It should use its leverage. No question about it. But I think it needs to be careful how it uses that leverage. And I don't mean just the Trump administration, but I mean future uh administrations as well. >> ENRA is essentially dying [clears throat] if not dead at this point in terms of the funding that it needs to get by. But now the US giving uh millions and millions of dollars to OCHA which has also come under fire from Israel and other countries for publishing misleading data during the war. Is Ocha a good place to park US money? It >> it's a necessary place for us to park our money because it does have tremendous reach, tremendous influence, uh tremendous ability uh to help and experience to try to resolve uh humanitarian conflicts around the world. So yes, >> there are some that have called for the UN essentially to be split off into whatever you want to call it, a league of democracies as opposed to just a world body that encompasses every form of government. Is is is that a workable idea and one that you would push for? Does this this body need to remain together and whole? >> Look, I think um the body needs to remain together, but it needs to be reformed and radically reformed. There's no question about it. And um the US, as I said, is trying to push uh some reforms. Uh but we're gonna it's going to take more than just the US. It's going to take other nations. It's going to take the new secretary general, as I've said. Um but I think this this is what needs to happen right now. Very serious reform, and it's urgent. >> Ambassador Robert Wood, former deputy ambassador to the United Nations for the United States. Thank you so much for taking the time to join us. We really do appreciate it and we will talk to you again next week on American View. >> Thanks very much, Mike, for having me. Greatly appreciate it.