Caffeine Connect - David Rambhajan - Strategic Framework for Government Contracting

Good afternoon everyone. Matt Feldhouse here for another episode of Caffeine Connect where we sip coffee and talk business. This is our monthly series where founders and business leaders share their stories, their insights and expertise with our community. You, our Patriot Boot Camp program is generously supported by ESPN. A big thanks to them for making this forum possible. Join us for real talk, actionable advice and inspiration to fuel your business journey. Today we're joined by David Rambajan, founder and executive adviser. After my brief intro, David will take the lead. I invite you to write any and all questions that you have throughout his presentation into that forum Q&A section, and we'll be we'll make sure at the end to save plenty of time to dig into all those. All right, let's get into it. David has extensive experience in the commercial construction industry, celebrating over 25 years in business. He is the sole owner and president of Industria Construction Services, a corporation providing general construction and professional construction management services. David and his firm have consulted on many municipal and private projects. Past and current projects include work for the US Army Corps Engineers, the Department of Navy, General Service Administration, Port Authority of New York and New Jersey, the Federal Bureau of Prisons, the Department of VA, O'Hare and Midway International Airports. His firm is a graduate of the SBA 8A small business development program, and participates in various small and veteranowned business programs. David obtained his bachelor of science degree from the University of Illinois, a certificate in project management from Depal University, and is a graduate of the Kellogg Management Institute, Kellogg School of Management, Northwestern University. He has also completed programs in project management at the Graham School of Business, your university of Chicago, construction management at the management institute, University of Wisconsin School of Business, and construction quality management with the Army Corps of Engineers. Wow, David, this is a mouthful. You are educated. That is for sure. But not only is he educated, he has also served his country. He enlisted at the age of 17 and served eight years in the US Marine Corps. He remains active in several professional and civic organizations. He's a big supporter of small and veteranowned firms, hence why he's here. He allocates time as an adviser to mentor and support fellow entrepreneurs. He resides in Parkidge, Illinois, with his wonderful wife, Anita, and two marvelous children, Raj, who's 18, and Alyssa, 16-year-old, and their dog, Buddy. Everyone needs a buddy. David, we are so excited to have you and everyone uh really pumped to welcome David. The floor is yours, my friend. >> Hey, thanks Matt. Appreciate it. Thank you for having me today where I could share some information. And uh as you're reading that, I'm thinking let's stop already and get started with this information. You know, as you're reading that, a lot of that information and a lot of that stuff that I've done with the schooling part um was really to learn. But I'll tell you that looking back at everything over 30 years, um, you know, I tell people don't confuse school with education, right? Because the most I've learned is through my experiences. So the school was good to learn some practical things, but the experience is what taught me. And so for over 30 years in business, the last 15 years of my business is when I scaled. Prior to that, I was just like everybody else, hustling, trying to figure it out, trying to understand success and build something great. And I'll share some of those lessons learned today. So, thank you again. Thanks for what you guys do. A lot of people don't know that there's so much great support out there. And DAV, I'm a lifetime member, is a great organization, and these kind of programs really help small businesses continue to lo learn more and do better. So, I'm going to jump into the presentation. Should I go ahead and share my screen? >> Yes. Yep. All good. >> Okay. Okay. So, let me know uh once you can see it. >> You're good to go. See it loud and clear. >> Okay, great. So, I'm going to go ahead and jump in. One thing I do want to share is this. Today, I'm going to share some information on how I was able to grow and scale my business. Often when I share this, I talk about three major things. I talk about small business programs, right? So what are these small business programs? What are these diversity programs, veteranowned business programs? The second thing I share is how I was able to leverage joint ventures, teaming, and partnership. How was I able to work with other small and large businesses to help me grow and scale my business? But the last thing I speak about is a little more of a strategy. You see, searching for success, searching for those opportunities, which all entrepreneurs and are always looking for. I still think there's something around the corner that's going to accelerate something fantastic, but it's really some basic things that we actually know, but I'll share again to make sure that we're focusing on things that matter. So leveraging these lessons and leveraging uh these mental models that I'll talk about allowed me to generate over 250 million worth of revenue with my construction firm. So I'll go ahead and jump in. The first thing I talk about is certifications. So early on I felt wow once I get the certifications I'm going to get opportunities. And I really believed that. That's where I was at that time. And if I could make money by being certified, I would have did very well because I went out and got every certification. But that didn't allow me to get the work, right? That didn't give me work. It just meant I can participate in the program. So there are many certifications out there, but really understanding and learning about them help me to leverage them properly. So we know that certifications come from different areas. You know, private organizations like McDonald's has a diversity program and they may have in that program that they want to buy from veterans. The rules in their program may be different than the federal program or the city, county, and state even throughout the country because everybody's program is their own. But you'd like to learn which programs fit for your product or your service. But these are the areas that I have seen different small business programs. Some of which might fit for you, some don't. Federal turned out to work really well for me. You'll see me leaning a little bit more towards federal. Uh but I did do uh city, county, and state and also some private. So when we look at privates all the way to the to the right here, right? These are private health organizations that make up their own rules. In fact, if you were a supplier to McDonald's, you could be doing a 100 million a year. Well, in the federal, that's not a small business anymore, right? So, you may or may not be a small business based on whichever owner program you're looking at. So, kind of be aware of that because sometimes I'll have people say, "Hey, we're womanowned. Can we do this? Can we do that? And I'll always ask, well, who's asking because it depends on that owner's program, how they work, right? So, we have different rules. To the left, you have municipal, city, county, and state. I'm in Chicago, but things I did in New York, I couldn't do in Chicago's program. So again, be cautious that you're looking at these programs where you may be able to participate or get certified in and thinking you're aware of what you're able to do. You see, to me, this is a little bit of a game and I want to win. So in order to win, I have to understand the rules. So the first thing I do now is if I'm looking at a particular program, I go through and understand all the rules and that comes into strategy because there are some rules that maybe you agree or don't agree with, but that's the rule that you may be able to leverage on your behalf. The federal programs, there's five small business programs in the federal sector. There's the small business defined by your NAKES code and either your revenues or employee size. There is womanowned business. There's the SBA88A small business development program. There is the service disabled veteranowned business program. And there's the hub zone program for um certain economic development areas. At the time, I was certified in four out of the five. And what's interesting about one of the rules is if you were in a city and you were uh let's say minority and veteran or womanowned and veteran, you were both. You could only apply dollars towards one or the other. And I get it. First of all, the rule is the rule, but I get it. They want someone else to be able to utilize that. On the federal, they get a dollar for dollar for every program you're in. Now, if you're a contracting officer and you're going to hire somebody and they're four out of the five small business programs, for every dollar you contract to them, you get $4 worth of requirement to meet your goals. Again, we don't have to agree or disagree, but understanding these rules allow you to manage growing your business and communicating with the contract officers. How do you learn all this? How do you become better? Well, support organizations, of course, we're here today at DAB. There's support organizations across the whole area. In my city of Chicago, I remember uh and I see that you could spend several days a week attending an outreach program for small business, for a new project, for one of the small agencies, and excited for opportunity, we'd go and we'd attend these programs. Well, that's taking away time from building the business, from getting the work, from delivering the work, from building the foundation and the systems and the processes to run your business. So, it's another cautious thing that I learned over time is be careful where you're getting your support and what you're going for. The federal government provides grants to organizations around the country to help small and veteran businesses. And if you've heard of the term Vbach, VBOC, you can check in your local area if there is a Vbach. You can also check if there's an Apex center, APEX. These centers are federally funded and offer support to small businesses specifically one on-one for free. Some are better than others, okay? So, don't get discouraged when you see it and maybe they're not providing you the support you may need. Keep looking. Go to the next one. And I think nowadays you may be able to go outside of your area to consult with other V-Box or Apex centers in other markets. Of course, as I have referenced here, the SBDC is also another grant program that's out there. And again, all of these from municipal to federal to private are support that's out there today. Listening in on this is support. Let me not forget you got a little ADHD here. It's going to kick in. So bear with me. But today you are here taking out of your valuable time to learn something. And I hope today something does resonate with you. But knowledge not applied is worthless, right? I talk about the many books I read as I was building my business and self-help, but really it was shelf because I would take those books, I'd get so excited and I'd put it back on the shelf and I'd go back doing the work I was doing. Today, I'd ask you to take a note or two, one or two things that maybe um inspire you or fit for your business to take some action because if you if you come today and listen, that's great. Appreciate it. But the action you take on something that's shared, a note that fits exactly for your business is what's going to make a real difference. So, these programs, how do you put it all together? What I share is to look at who buys what you're selling. Who buys what you're selling? You don't want revenues. You want profitable revenues. And believe me, I've been there and I feel it. We've got to put food on the table. We've got to pay the bills. So, I need to get work. But be careful getting stuck in revenues that have you forever being an employee of your own company. At some point, ownership means allowing that business to run. So, you own that company. There's nothing wrong with being an employee of your company, but you also want to have retained earnings. And I've seen that and I've challenged people to be aware of it. I no person with 100 employees has no retained earnings. So 100 employees makes a lot of revenues, makes some profit, pays for everybody's salaries, has a great entertainment budget, and on the surface it looks fantastic, but it's a fancy job, let's say, and if that fits for you, that's great. But be aware. So when you're planning, look at how you can profit from the revenues from the buyers who buy what you're selling, right? They buy what you're selling. You just have to get in front of them. You have to bid. you have to get an opportunity versus trying to sell them something you have. It's another way of looking at it. Also, make sure that before you put the energy in there, if you qualify for these certifications, that you actually go after the certification, once you know that it's something that's going to help you with your business. And of course, as you push on and manage it, that you ensure what's the goal of that certification. I was certified as a hub zone and I ended up not renewing it because it wasn't bringing value to my business and it took time and energy to keep it renewed. Let's jump ahead. I'm going a little bit quick, but there's a lot of information here to share and then we'll answer some questions here at the end. Partnering. Partnering comes in three forms. Sometimes you'll subcontract some work to somebody and that's fine. Especially in the federal, you can subcontract to large businesses. I wrote the word affiliation because you want to be aware again of the rules. You see, the rules allow you to subcontract as much as 90% to another large business if you want to or small business. But if you're doing it consistently to a large business, the federal government may may look at that and consider whether or not those two companies are affiliated, meaning you're overly reliant on that large business. So, be aware of that. Teaming agreement takes it a step further. A teaming agreement will say, "Hey, this is a formal agreement where we're demonstrating the relationship between me, the prime, and my subcontractor, and we've strategized to work together to go after this contract. And that is allowable. even if they're helping to provide bonding capacity or financial assistance, you're allowed to do those things, which are great opportunities on the federal to go after work and start to grow um some past performance. And then joint venture is a new entity. It's a separate company that's put together by two companies. And if your company is a veteranowned company or otherwise diverse, you want to be 51% of that entity. There's a lot that goes on with doing any type of partnering or joint venturing. So, let's talk about some things to consider. Are you eligible? Okay. Does the project that you're going after or the owner that you're working for allow the arrangement you're having? In the city of Chicago, they will not accept a joint venture as a diverse entity. But the federal government, if you are 51% of that entity, that entire entity now is, let's say, veteranowned. So, be aware of the regulations because there's a lot of things to consider. But I do know that this is one of the things that allowed me to gain extra profitable revenues. The other thing is be clear as to the roles and responsibilities. Um especially if it's a joint venture, this is a marriage and you want to be sure that you want to be sure that everybody understands the expectations and the commitments that each person's going to have. as well as on the eligibility ensuring that the um 51% uh small business is handling the financial control and overall decisions that the SBA will look to make sure is occurring in that entity. And then take your time. A lot of times I've seen it uh jumping into a partnership and going after work and it goes south. It's a lot to clean up and it's a lot of energy to start a new entity with a whole new EIN and put it through SAM and get it all going. But there are benefits to these partnerships. You're hedging the risk with another company while you're learning. You're able to obtain past performance and that allowed me to help fuel my growth. So for these type of partnerships, make sure you really consider how you're going about the partnership and you ensure you understand what the rules are. And some of those you can go to the support agencies and or do a little more research online to make sure that everything fits. That planning is so critical because it'll ensure that everything runs smoothly later. And as you execute it, again, make sure that you think about it. A lot of times they'll jump into this type of relationship and things go south and now you're doing cleanup. And this is not what you want to be doing with your time. As much as people might say, "Well, I know them. They're a great person. They're a good company." Everything should be in writing, right? Most issues don't arise because people are bad. It's because there's a miscommunication, a misunderstanding of what they thought you were going to do and they were going to do. And as you push forward with any type of relationship, make sure that you understand what's the long-term goal, what's the plan, what do you want to do with this entity. Right now, I believe, and it changes over time, that if you do have a joint venture, from the date of the first award of that contract with the federal government, you have two years life on that joint venture. back when I was more involved um maybe six, seven, eight years back after the first award, you can only win two more jobs. So, they allowed those joint ventures only to have three or maybe five jobs. But now, it's unlimited projects, but within a two-year period, that joint venture cannot exist on forever. So, understand what your goal is. That was a lot of information and I did share with uh Matt and uh Suzanne that we will go ahead and share these slides later. But what I want to jump into now is more of a strategy. You see, I believe everybody's capable of doing great things. There's nothing in any of my credentials other than experience that allowed me to hit targets that exceeded my expectations. And so I'm going to share a little bit about that. And for those of you who are familiar, um, in the Marine Corps, I ended up doing something what I thought was pretty amazing. I was, uh, at boot camp at 18 years old, and we fire our weapon at distances of 300, I mean, 200, 300, and we qualify at 500 yards. Now, when I look back at that, I think, how was an 18-year-old able to master hitting targets consecutively at five football fields of length? And I look back at how I was able to accomplish something. And I remember we started with the target, right? We were focused our energy. We couldn't speak unless we're spoken to. and we just eat, sleep, and drink rifle mastering that weapon to be prepared to fire on the range. And that was in a matter of two weeks. That was crazy. So, I tried to apply some of this to my business, understanding what my target was for my business, focusing my energy, and you can make mistakes, you can have big risk, so making good choices as well. The way I ended up looking at it is there's definitely these distances and targets that I have for my business, but I had to make sure I was starting at 200 yards. I think uh naturally many of us want to achieve something great immediately, right? We want to know is it the red pill, the blue pill, do I do real estate, do I do NFTTS, what am I doing today? How can I make some money? How can I grow something? Well, we still have to start at 200 yards. And too many times we rush forward to 500. And if I did try and shoot at 500 when I was on the range, I would have been discouraged and I would have given up because I didn't pass my 200 and 300 yard line. So I think about that. The other thing I think about is have a clear understanding of my return. What is it I want? What is this business look like? What does this wonderful life I'm looking to build look like? Have clarity and work backwards from there. and then put all my energy or my resources, time, skill, money, relationships towards focused hitting that target while maintaining manageable risk that fits for me. You see risk, I remember my wife having to sign the bonding documents and she said, "What's this for?" And I said, "Well, if we fail on the job, you know, they have the right to take everything up into including our home." That was risky, but I did manage it. I still felt as I was growing my business that I was missing something and I always look for something quick and easy. I still do. What's that gamechanging shortcut or that secret VIP group I have to be part of? Well, I again will share clarity bought me back to this know where I was going and have this clarity for my goal. Apply my resources properly and manage my risk. What this led me to do is to strengthen my foundation for building my business with all the noise, especially we have now. We're pulled in many different directions and we want to just keep going to these shiny objects. So, I focused, but I realized there's a few more things that happen at boot camp that allowed me to do great things. And that was my mindset. They broke us down and they said, "You're capable of more." And I know this is a soft subject. It's not a a a hard uh technical item, but knowing that you're capable of doing more and believing it and opening up your mind to different opportunities really helped me learning about those constantly. I don't stop, right? So, I was able to uh take apart and put back together my weapon within seconds. And that's because we kept learning everything we needed to know about the weapon. And then I stayed committed. too many times I wouldn't stay committed and I'd go try something else. I am an entrepreneur. I've had several businesses and I would always jump to something else. So staying committed is important and it builds this strong foundation for growth. This allowed me to go ahead and build my business and push forward so that I could hit targets that I didn't believe I could hit. So what's next for you? Where do you start? Hey Matt, could you chime in? How are we looking on time >> right now? We have about 34 minutes left, though. You know, we want Q&A to have the last 10 minutes. So, I guess more like 24. >> We do have one question, but of course, I'll save that for the end. >> Okay. Okay. Yeah. Everybody, please put your questions in. I'm glad I had you chime in because I don't know what my laptop computer is saying but it looks like we had like 10 minutes left and I'm telling myself David talking too much which my wife will tell you I do. So this page I'll spend a little more time and then we'll break here Matt for questions. Um if you don't have questions uh I can still believe me share some more thoughts to help uh those who are listening uh with their businesses. So one of the big things is and this happens with all of us in our mind. We see great things and we want to accomplish it and we're seeing this big accomplishment. But where we need to put our focuses today, the small steps, the actions we take. These this is stuff we know. This is like a broken record. But what are you sharing? This is basic. The truth is though, we need these reminders because we don't do it. What we do is we try and check off our list. let's get stuff done and we keep pushing but we don't often work on that deep foundational strength that's going to carry us to that next plateau. So spending time on things that matter and I can control. So today was a SBA open forum for small business changes that are being suggested at the SBA which are not that great and a lot of small businesses aren't happy about it. You know, at the end of the day, we'll speak up. We'll say what we feel, but there's certain things we can control and we can't. So, I have small businesses that I know that are thinking about options for pivoting if a lot of these changes go through. So, be aware what matters and what you can control because our mind will often have us getting this dopamine hit from just checking off busy work. And I'm guilty still of doing it, right? And I've been practicing for a while. So those who haven't been practicing as much might not even realize that every day is filled with busy work and we never get to those foundational uh uh projects that help us build moving forward. So what is the strategy? It's not the strategy. It's your strategy, right? What is it you're going to do for what you want to build? And I say yours and you so much because we get these structured ideas in our head of what success is and what we should be doing. You should be doing real estate makes more money. You should be doing this. This is what the government's buying. Let's make it real simple. The open market is buying everything. Let's make sure that you are excited about what you're selling, your product or service. And it's not just because this is what I should be doing because if it's something you like and enjoy doing and you're good at, you'll do that much better at it. People have said to me, David, uh, couple years, a few years back or during call, you know, they cut back on federal spending. Are you okay? I know you do a lot of work with the federal. And I said, listen, I'm a small business. I'm a speck of sand on the beach. when the tsunami comes in, I kind of way this way and I'm right back. I did a YouTube talk uh uh recently where I said last year the federal government gave to small businesses $740 billion worth of work. I just need 20 to30 million. That's what I'm trying to get. And so too many times we change our direction because of what's going on in the market. The first thing I talk about is make sure that whatever you're doing is going to give you that return on that investment, right? Are you putting what I call the three Rs? You're putting your time, energy, and skill, your resources to hit this return, the target, while you're managing your risk. You have to look at it and make sure it's going to make sense. many of businesses, you know, because as entrepreneurs, our excitement clouds our judgment, have pushed forward with something that when I actually, you know, lift it up and look at it, I'm like, Jeremy, show me the money. Where is this coming from? I don't see how you're going to raise these profits that you're looking to get to grow this company. So, be critical with yourself, but better yet, get somebody who's going to be critical on your plan. You don't have to agree with them, but being comfortable with criticism will help you grow. So, make sure that your plan makes sense. The other thing I share, of course, is be where you're at and then build upon it. I still make these mistakes, but I remind people to start at your 200 yards. And it's not exciting. It's boring and it's work, but you have to do the research. You have to do the planning. You have to get the certifications. You have to build that brand and make sure it's putting that time in that it's focus on that target. You know, I've climbed many ladders over the years with different businesses only to realize as I get to the top, the ladder's against the wrong wall. You want to make sure that the planning is in there as much as you can and that you've been challenged and you've shown other people what you're doing because in this silo of excitement, you think everything's great. You can't you can't I sometimes say you can't read the ingredients from inside the bottle. So to you it looks great but let other people look at it. Understand your strategy. You know construction people will say hey we deliver projects on budget and on time and with great quality. That's a given. What makes you different? How are you going to set yourself apart? You see, work is not work to me. I wanted profitable work. And I kept learning where was the what's profitable work? Work that allows me to make a margin, fair, good margin after I pay everybody and all my suppliers and vendors. And it also has good cash flow. Some of our municipal projects here uh might be the same for you in your market get paid in 90 to 120 days. That alone, cash flow is king for small business. How can you do it? The federal government pays within 30 days. I received a check once in the office early on with the federal and I didn't know what project it was for. My office is like, "Hey, what is this for? I don't know. This is more than we were supposed to get paid." And I remember calling him back. What a wonderful time. And I said, "Hi, I'm just checking. The number doesn't look like it's balanced. I just want to make sure what it's for." and she said we were a few days late. That's interest. You're paying me interest if you're over 30 days. Unheard of in the municipal market, right? Wait to get paid. The other thing I talk about from a marketing perspective, an intention perspective is realize how you sound in what you're doing with excitement. We talk about what we can do, but the target isn't hearing what we're saying. When I go into a meeting, I understand why I'm there and what needs to be said because I know what needs to be heard. So, I don't speak with intention. I speak from reception. See, intention has me going in and say, "We're a great contractor. We need an opportunity. We've been in business. I have these accolades and these awards. Let me get a job." But I think about the people on the other side of the table. They've heard that a hundred times. So I make sure I my my message is not only based on what they're receiving, but what they need to hear. All I need in the first meeting is for them to look at each other after I leave and say, "Nice guy. I like that guy." Everybody's going to be qualified. Let's say I don't need to talk about that too much. Just understand what they're going to feel and think. Speak and act with reception versus intention. And lastly, be a sharpshooter. Right? Some of the things I share, these mental models have a little more intent in them, right? You're not just being busy, but you're thinking about what you're doing. These allowed me to grow my business, and hopefully some of what I shared today will allow you to grow your business. Um, I put my uh contact information up here. You'll see there's a a little um uh note on the bottom of the slide says sharpshooterlife.com. If you use the QR code, you can connect with me on LinkedIn. I have a um free group that I have where I share information about being better and doing better. So, feel free to reach out, connect, and um I hope that something I shared today will help you to go ahead and continue to either start and or grow your business. That's a little bit of a mic drop there, Matt. >> Awesome. No, no, of course, David, we we appreciate it. You know, someone getting into government work, this this stuff is important. Uh we're going to backtrack a little bit because I think this question came a little bit in the earlier stages. So the question was posed at 152. So uh it's about you know 20 something minutes ago or so. But they're asking so after what what's the next steps after that 2-year period expires? Do you start all over? >> And I'm not going to lie, I do not know the context of when this was added. So Paul, if you are still on or David, if you know exactly what he's talking about with I know what he's talking about. Perfect. >> Yes, I think he's refing. do let us know in the comments or however you communicate with Matt if I'm hitting it on point here, but it's in reference to the two years I said that you can have a joint venture. You see, all the certification programs that are out there um you renew them on a fixed basis to maintain your uh small business program. But the joint ventures currently, now this could change tomorrow. I mean, things change all the time, but currently it's my understanding that when you set up a joint venture, you've got a large business and a small business. Um, well, first of all, you cannot set up a joint venture with a large business unless you are in the mentor protege program with that large business. By the way, I did that with a large business and it was fantastic. I'll talk about that if we have time here. But the joint venture between two small businesses that are getting together to go after work, that small business could be a $10 million business and your business is $500,000 business. You set up that joint venture from the date of the first award under that joint venture. You have two years for the life of that joint venture. And so I've had many adjoin ventures over my tenure. And what I did is when I knew it was going to be expiring, when I hit that third, I mean that second job for me, if it made sense, I'd set up the next joint venture. And literally, you'll see it as I share this. I'll say sharpshooter joint venture. That's the name of the LLC, right? The next one will be sharpshooter joint venture 2, sharpshooter joint venture three. There are people who have five, six joint ventures over time. We had with our large firm under the ADA program under mentor protege we had uh uh four different companies we started over a period of six years. So that's what you do. You'd start up your next entity if you still want to continue to bid on projects under that joint venture. Okay, >> awesome. I'm just seeing a comment here. Let's see another question. Yeah. So, you know, from someone, you know, reviewing this as an outsider that maybe hasn't done it, trying to think through if you're having to renew every two years, it could seem discouraging. Um, you know, is the paperwork that you need to do not that difficult? Is it after you've done it a number of times it gets easier? Or is that just one of the burdens that you have to face to do this? cuz you know I I don't know when you think of government work or just you know filing your taxes or something it's difficult it's stressful so is that discouraging or how would you respond to that yeah there are a lot of things that are discouraging so let me not tell you it's easy that it's a lot of paperwork and setting up an entity uh takes time and energy and uh some people have an attorney do it but I did everything on a sho string and so I would file for my EIN I would uh set up an LLC uh and I'd managed doing that and I set up a checklist. So the second time I had the checklist ready. The third time I had the checklist ready and I just went through it. I was able to set up entities within a week. And so it does take time and energy and it is a little frustrating. But by the way, keep in mind this is just one strategy joint venture. I mean you as an individual can just go bid work as a prime. Yeah, but David, I don't have the the the the capacity. You could still have a um a subcontractor. I literally had projects that were, let's say I had a $3 million project. I had one subcontractor that did the whole job. Listen, there are rules in the program. Know this, the more you understand the rules, the better you can play and then you can win. That's what I did. I did things and people will say, "Well, how'd you do that?" I don't mind sharing, but this is the rules. You can do this. Let me give you a quick example. Uh, Matt, $3 million job. It's for service disabled veterans set aside. And you are a prime. I'm a prime. I want it. And I have one subcontractor doing the whole job. Well, David, how do you meet your self-performance goals? It's a rule. You have to self-perform a portion. In fact, in construction, it's anywhere from 10 to 25% must be performed with your own staff. How'd you do that? Listen, I don't agree or disagree with any of these rules. I disagree with a lot of them actually, but I just want to follow them and figure out what I can do. I remember calling the uh contracting officer one time and saying, "Hey, I know that currently uh contracts are provided for service disabled veterans, but you have a lot of veterans that are certified with the SBA. What does that let them do?" And she knew what I was getting at. I was speaking with reception and I said, "What I'd ask you is if I give a subcontract to a veteranowned business that you allow that to go towards my self-performance." and she said sure we will because it's the right thing to do right so latitude within the rules to meet requirements help you and again you can as a as a general contractor if it's a service type uh work that you're providing um let's say it's accounting work you're providing or some consulting work 50% must be self-perform but again let's say you can perform 10% but not 50 you hire and it's set aside for veterans You hire a small business or a large business to get through 50% of the contract. Then 40% you hire a service disabled veteran firm that has capabilities. This is not going through the motions. This all has to be capable, right? Doing the work. 40%. Then you do your 10%. That's all allowable. And again, once you understand what's allowed versus what's in your structured ideas of your experiences or what you heard, which hey, by the way, what David said this, David said that, check everything. But once you check it, you'll understand that there's some opportunities to have strategies that let you uh win some of this work. >> Awesome. David, we we have another question that typed in. Um, so this one is from James. So as a senior PM that has worked under CM owner rep not at risk contracts in the private sector for over 20 years and a few years of experience in city council in city county work on time and material not to exceed on call model. And now I want to understand if I could offer my individual PM/CM owner rep services via the type of programs you are discussing. >> Can I do that as an individual or do I need to realistically do under a partner company? >> Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Okay, James, make sure I understand. Thank you for asking the question by the way. And everybody put your questions at whatever time we have left. Don't be shy. be be be um you know just this is time for you so so take advantage of it. Uh thanks Matt. So so um all your experience and capabilities are part of who you are and part of your business. The the federal government um through small business programs uh you have to be an actual business. So an LLC. So if you had an LLC and it's a single person it's you. That's fine. That is your business. The federal government does have hiring preferences for veterans, too. So, if you're talking about going to work and provide your expertise, the VA will have a preference to hire a veteran to be the representative for the federal government when, you know, I land a $10 million job. They're hiring people like you to oversee that on their behalf. So, that that's one thing. The second thing is when there's a hundred million dollar job and a very large business is building a big branch of the VA in some part of the country, they need to have a small business program to include small businesses currently and you calling up and saying, "Hey, I can be part of your team. This is my experience." Yes, you can get an opportunity like that. And yes, watch this. Now hopefully this hits center. I want a job and it's an estate that I'm not at. My last project was a $12 million design build in Minneapolis. I'm in Chicago for the VA, right? If you had an LLC and it was just you and you had capabilities of managing that $12 million project, I might hire you as the be on the team to be out there to be on our team for two reasons. you're capable and I don't have a staff member to go out there at this moment. Number two, if I hire you as a veteran, it goes towards my self-performance. See, so you've got to understand how you're coming. That's that whole reception versus attention. Intention is you want to take your expertise and bring it to market. But if you understand how the market sees you and what the opportunities are, now you can phrase it properly. If you call up any general contractor, any general contractor doing government work and you tell them your capabilities and they're a veteran, it's a little bit of an edge for them. They want to have a veteran on the team and they can subcontract work out to you. So, there's different ways you can get at that work. James, hopefully that gave you some insight there. And then, Matt, should I should I stop sharing? I I think I left that up long enough for people to try and get the uh QR. >> Yeah, you can stop sharing. No worries. We'll again we'll get out to everyone that has registered and attended. We have all your emails. We'll send that out on David's behalf. Um so we appreciate that. David, another question. >> Sure. >> So you gave a lot of great information, but it could be overwhelming. So where do you recommend someone start if they're wanting to get into government work? Like what would be step one? >> Yeah. Yeah. Great. That that's a great idea. So the first thing is this. How much time do you have? Right. What that means is there are people who are running their businesses that need to have revenue right away. That's an unfortunate place to be in because in silence planning takes time. And if you hear that noise of, "Hey, you got bills to pay. Let's go. You got bills to pay." It's taking away your focus. I've even told some people, "Hey, I'm an entrepreneur. We hustle, right? Especially military people. We hustle. Let's go. We're going to get stuff done." So, go drive Uber. You got to keep paying. You don't want to rush to the game because you're gonna trip. Don't rush. Put some planning into it. The first planning is what business you looking into. What business do you want to do? What product or service fits? Now, I get it. I've said it earlier. Do something you enjoy. Do it's all work. I don't enjoy. I enjoy sitting on the beach. Are they buying that? No, they're not. But something that you have an understanding of. I don't have a degree in architecture or engineering. I just immersed myself in construction because as a kid I had all the Tonka trucks and I loved construction and my life led me in this direction. But know that you're going to get into this product service. Of course, the second thing is know that the market's going to buy what you're selling. Hey David, I love basket weaving. Okay, I don't know how many baskets you're going to be able to sell to be able to make those margins to someday sit on the beach, right? Let's be realistic about it. So, the first things first is look at the market. Nowadays, we have AI. If you know how to use it properly, challenge you to look into how would this fit? Who buys? What does the market need? People will say, "Well, I do this because the market needs it." The market needs almost everything. The federal government buys almost everything, but what's going to fit for you? Fit for you for you're going to enjoy doing it and building it. The market's going to absorb it. And the third probably most important thing is you can make a profit on it. If I don't get all three, I'll challenge you and say, "Where are you going? What is the purpose here?" And by the way, challenging you to shake you up a little bit, to make better choices, to build a stronger foundation because, oh, you're so critical, Dave. Okay, best of luck. How's that sound? Right. I don't have the answers, but I'm going to try and shoot holes through your plan to make sure it's strong because again, our excitement as entrepreneurs often clouds our judgment. And also use I'll add this one more thing Matt also use these support programs like uh the V-bach will uh a lot of them will be able to help you and you can ask the V-Bucks you can ask the SBDC's and the Apex centers in particular for federal can you tell me how much of this does the government buy so leverage getting the data to support what you want to do >> that's a good point I mean as much time as you can put in in the front end and be proactive and well researched in almost any endeavor it for your benefit. So I could see someone thinking ah working with the government uh isn't there a lot of bureaucracy isn't there a lot of red tape. Have you found that to be true David or or how do you deal with with all of that stuff when you're when you're dealing with government work? >> I'm wondering if I told you to ask that question because that's such a good question. >> That talented David that is why I'm in a position. So, so when I was doing city, county, and state, city, county, and state work in Chicago, a lot of politics, a lot of paperwork, a lot of bureaucracy, and I thought somebody said federal. And I'm like, federal sounds like a big word. I don't know what that is. And it's more red tape and more bureaucracy. Farthest from the truth for me. What do I mean? You know, hard work is hard work, but you want you want to get work. You want to be able to deliver that work, and you want to be able to get paid. I wasn't able to get paid as quickly in the city, county, and state. I wasn't able to get permits as quickly, city, county, and state. I often ran across personalities um in Chicago that we have to deal with. You're gonna deal with personalities everywhere. But I'm gonna tell you the federal allowed me to bid. There were no friends. I mean, you know, listen, relationships are deep everywhere, but on the federal, for the most part, you've got to be a little bit better. You've got to fall in line. The contract officers are holding to the rules of the federal regulations or the the the veteran regulations. So you have a fair opportunity just you as a person trying to bid on perform on and grow your book of business with the federal government. And the most important thing is let me tell you something. Getting paid in 30 days is great. I didn't settle for that. I ended up getting paid sometimes in two weeks. Two weeks. They would accept our credit card payments for some small projects. We do credit card. We do purchase orders. We do contracts, multiple award contracts, but I dug in deep to really understand the payment process back in the day and I maximized my return on that investment by getting paid as quick as we can. What does that do? It trickles down. Which subcontractors want to work with me? The ones that are getting paid in uh uh 60, 90, 120 days or the ones who are getting paid within 30 days? And so that empowered me to have better subcontractors working for me, which in turn allowed them to perform better on these jobs. So, so the general answer is there is bureaucracy on the federal, there is paperwork. You're going to learn the most acronyms. Well, if you're in the military, you know there's acronyms everywhere, but a lot of acronyms, but it's all achievable. It's all reasonable. nothing that I have uh credential-wise allowed me to do it. I started at zero and I learned and then I I leveled up each time. >> Awesome. Sorry. I always like to go off so that people can, you know, focus on you and David appreciate all the valuable life lessons. Um that's why we bring experts like you that have been in the hot seat that have done you know all the things that our entrepreneurs our innovators want to do and are excited to do. We want to bring you in to be able to share so that they can learn from that. So uh everyone we have a couple announcements here. Um, one of those, so Caffeine Connect, many of you might have received a survey regarding what do you want 2027 to look like with Caffeine Connect? Do you want these to be longer, shorter? Do you want it to be actual podcast style, educational, informational? So, there should be a QR code that we are going to provide in the chat here and it just takes about 2 minutes. This is really helpful for us to understand how can we help you. What is it that you want to see in 2027 from Caffeine Connect? We're really open to switching it up and we just want to make sure that we're hitting the mark to provide what you guys need best. So, please, if you get a chance, uh, you know, take that survey. It's very quick and this is how we're going to be able to adapt. We are continuing to do these. So, if you go to our website, which is patriotbootcamp.org, there's going to be a portion at the top that says join our community, that's going to get you to subscribe to our website in our newsletter, so that then you can get all of the updates of who our next potential guests are, what is the topic, etc. You can also so uh follow us on all of our social medias, whether it's Facebook, Instagram, and LinkedIn. We like to post content and share updates there as well. And lastly, you might have noticed if you go to that website, we have an open cohort. So, our winter 2027 cohort is now accepting and has been accepting applications. That's going to be here at our uh national headquarters in Erlanger, Kentucky. So, if you're flying, if you're not in the local area, CVG airport is where you'd fly in. And that's going to be February 17th to February 19th, 2027. Like I said, we're really excited to continue these Caffeine Connects. For all of you that cannot make it or maybe are not in the right uh stage of your business to attend a boot camp, these Caffeine Connects are an excellent way to stay educated, to still get a lot of the content. And many of these presenters that we bring on are the same people that come to our Patriot boot camps and present in person. So whether it's marketing, funding, government contracting, whatever it is, we have a whole slew of topics in there that you can choose from and watch on your own. Everyone, David, first off, I really appreciate you joining and sharing your knowledge with us. Everyone who watched, thank you for joining us today. Good luck and uh let's build