Brooklyn Talks: Iris van Herpen and Vanessa Friedman

My name is Matthew Akabosski and I'm the senior curator of fashion and material culture at the Brooklyn Museum and I'm joined on stage by ASL interpreters Allison Merkel and Leah Colm Rothman. Thank you Allison and Leah for expanding our conversation tonight. It is an absolute joy to welcome you to our Brooklyn talks celebrating the opening of our special exhibition Iris Van Herpen sculpting the senses. Sculpting the senses which honors one of the most forwardthinking fashion designers of her generation. A pioneer in the use of technologies, Van Herpin transcends conventional clothing norms. She embraces couture artisanship while dovetailing innovative techniques into her practice. The exhibition features more than 140 extraordinary oat couture creations alongside contemporary artworks. Iris Van Herpen sculpting the senses is sponsored by American Express. We'd like to extend additional thanks to the Simons Foundation for supporting tonight's talk. This evening, Iris Van Herpen offers a rare glimpse into her wide ranging career, delving deep into her creative process and the inspiration behind the fashion. In this exhibition, she is joined on stage by Vanessa Freriedman, fashion director and chief fashion critic of the New York Times. When you entered the theater tonight, you received cards to gather your questions during the talk. Toward the end of the conversation, my colleagues Margot and Lauren will appear in the aisles collecting the cards for question and answer. Please look out for them. After the conversation, we hope you'll stick around and explore the exhibition. Ticket holders to the talk have exclusive after hours access and some of the first to experience the exhibition. I'm honored to introduce our speakers tonight. Widely heraldled of as one of fashion's most forwardthinking designers, Iris Van Herpen discovered fashion for the first time in her grandmother's attic where she unearthed a mini museum of garments and costumes that opened her eyes to another decade. trained in classical ballet and throughout her career the designer has been fascinated by fluidity and inang and the entangled art of movement. Van Herpin's vision is guided by the human anatomy and the way the body moves making her off to otherworldly looking designs adored by collectors and clients worldwide. Whether drawing from the intricate web of nature, the structural philosophy of living architecture, or the fluidity of the anatomy of the body, Iris van Herpens, Iris Van Herpens reimagines the body as a site of perpetual transformation. Vanessa Freriedman, who you might remember from her powerful conversation with KZA Yamamoto during the David Bowie retrospective, was named the fashion director and chief fashion critic for the New York Times in March 2014. In this role, she leads global fashion coverage for both the New York Times and International New York Times on all platforms. Before joining the paper, Miss Freriedman was the inaugural fashion editor of the Financial Times, the fashion features director for InStyle UK, and was the European editor of American L. She is the author of Alio Pooie. She is the recipient of the 2012 Front Page Award for Fashion Writing and the 2018 Media Award from the Fashion Group International. I would also like to mention that we've that they've both been featured in recent films starring Anne Hathaway. Iris Iris for her design dress design in Mother Mary if you have a chance to see that great film and Vanessa for herself as herself in the Devil's Prodatitu in a scene filmed in the Brooklyn Museum's Bozark Court. Before welcoming Iris and Vanessa to the stage, I'm thrilled to pass the microphone to John Tracy, program director of the Simons Foundation, who will share more about the organization's essential work. Thank you very much. [applause] Hey everyone, I actually just saw the Devil Wars product. Vanessa totally stole the show, I have to say. It's hard to upstage Merryill Street. Uh I'm John Tracy, program director for Science, Society, and Culture, as Matthew said. Um and on behalf of the foundation, just want to extend a hearty thank you to the Brooklyn Museum for having us tonight. My team's here. They've somehow finagled themselves into the second row down there. What's up, guys? Um we're so pleased to be supporting this event and the brilliant Sculpting the uh senses exhibition. Um, it's not every day that you get to uh speak before two genuine cultural icons, uh, Vanessa Freriedman and of course Iris Ven Herbin. And I know we're all eager to hear from them, so I'll be brief. Uh, the Simons Foundation exists to advance the frontiers of research in mathematics and the basic sciences and to engage the public with the wonderful, messy, inspiring process of science. We firmly believe that math and science are part of culture and that one of the most powerful ways to engage people is to illuminate the ways in which math and science manifest in art, music, design, fashion, of course, and and much more. This core belief led us to launch infinite sums, a national initiative to celebrate mathematics, something that underpins all of science and is a fundamental element of the most beautiful things in our universe. It's an effort to kind of go beyond its practical applications and shift the focus to its beauty and its ubiquity. When we were in the early stages of of exploring how to do this, um fashion was actually, believe it or not, uh one of the first things that came to mind. Um because beyond the surface level or practical connections between math and fashion like pattern cutting or measurements, there actually exists a very rich history uh and a beautiful relationship between designers and mathematicians going back centuries from 16th century mathematicians who also worked as tailor to isake uh and his manipulation of of two-dimensional fabrics into three-dimensional pieces. And of course, there is the truly singular Iris Van Herpen. Someone whose work has forever existed at the intersection of art and science, technology, and of course, math. There are countless examples here. For one, her incredible sensory seas collection uh that draws brilliant parallels between the human body and the ecology of our oceans. features the fractal flows dress, uh the morphagenesis dress, which is a concept studied by the great mathematician Alan Turing. A personal favorite of mine is uh the nautilloid dress, which of course evokes the logarithmic geometry of the nautilus shell, uh which is an of course an indelible symbol of of the math inherent in nature. Shout out to Matthew for that beautiful nautilus sculpture that I saw at the ex exhibition just before. uh the influence of math and and science on Iris's brilliant work uh and on fashion more broadly is is not difficult to find and actually that influence is also not onedirectional. You know there have been many instances of designers giving life to otherwise esoteric or or theoretical concepts in math and science. One of my favorite examples of this is uh comes from Sabode Patiel. He's a physicist who I believe Iris met when she was a guest artist at CERN. Patil was wrestling with this question of of what happened before the big bang. And he noticed that when uh visitors would come to CERN and they would ask him, you know, what did that time look like? And he didn't know what to tell them. He was having trouble visualizing what he called the frothy magma of of quantum foam, uh which is thought to have seated the big bang. In fact, he said that even mathematics had failed to describe it. A few years later, uh, he learned that Iris had designed a dress that was at least partially inspired by a conversation that they had. And when he saw it, he described feeling a ping of joy. Uh, Iris's visual metaphor for quantum foam was instantly recognizable to him and it immediately um sort of deeply resonated. So, a conversation about physics and math inspires the creation of a dress. And that dress helps tell the story of a time before the Big Bang in ways not even mathematics could. A beautiful relationship indeed and a testament to the brilliance of Iris Van Herpen. Again, we're honored to support the Brooklyn Museum's presentation of sculpting the senses and to celebrate Iris tonight. And with that, please join me in welcoming Vanessa Freriedman and Iris Van Herpin to the stage. [applause] Hi, thank you, John, and thank you, Matthew. I am so happy to be here talking with this woman whose work has sometimes bamboozled me, sometimes a me, but endlessly intrigued me. She's really someone who understands that technology is just the great great great grandchild of the sewing needle and is not the enemy of couture, but rather its tool. I mean, speaking as someone who has long believed that the laws of the physical world also govern the fashion world, right? Like hemlines that go up must come down. For every action or trend, there is an equal and opposite reaction. It is impossible not to fan girl over someone who finds her inspiration not in the Moroccan desert or the Riviera, but the great the Large Hadron Collider, right? Like, it's amazing. So, in fact, I actually often think that using the word designer in the context of of your career and your work is kind of silly. And so, my first question to you, Eris, is actually how do you think of yourself? Um, I think I don't really my mind doesn't think in discipline so much. Like to me the disciplines behave quite fluidly. I find it hard to separate art from fashion and from the other disciplines that [clears throat] I work with. So um often people ask me whether I'm a fashion designer or an artist. And I think I'm both and uh we don't have to choose. And I think fashion can really be a form of art. Um, and I'm trying to find that freedom in my work. Yeah. >> Did you ever think about being a kind of more traditional definition, you know, what people would call a more traditional definition of an artist? >> Um, what would be a more traditional [laughter] >> paint, >> sculpture, >> um, the body is really my canvas. I keep on going back to the body always. That's so intuitive to me. And I have a dance background. Uh I used to do classical ballet. So the body is just my yeah my starting point always. And I'm looking for that transformative energy that I've um explored in dance. But I'm trying to do that in materials now. Um and I cannot imagine not working for the body but at the same time I always like to venture into other wems as well. So I've done some things in architecture. Um and I've also been doing some sculpture work which is also part of the exhibition. But the body will always be my canvas and my starting point. >> Why? What is it about the body? >> It's so personal. I think my work is really uh personal and that's what I love about couture. It's art that you actually embody. So instead of looking at a painting on a wall, you go inside uh that work and it responds to your own uh emotions and to your own body body movements. And um that is something that keeps on fascinating me. Um, yeah, >> it's it's interesting to me because I feel like it is actually the body itself that has often kind of >> consider made fashion considered a decorative art rather than an actual art, right? The fact that it's supposed to be worn that it's supposed to be used and somehow not as like pure. >> Yeah. And I actually think I like to challenge that idea because even if you look at the history of fashion, it could have like sometimes it had very um almost like um a transcendental function like a communication tool between us and the higher spirit for example. And I think fashion has so many faces and so many sides. I think we should not forget to look at the deeper meaning within fashion because indeed on one hand it's a product that we use uh everyday life but it's also a form of art or it can be a form of art that um speaks to a much deeper level within ourselves and um when I work on um looks for clients I really like to refer to those creations as portraits. um because I'm trying to express their their universe into my materials and um yeah I I I really think it's the same as a painter making a portrait for someone but then you go inside of it and that makes it so personal and so unpredictable and that's why I keep on going back there. So when you're when you're making something for someone, do you have convers long conversations with them about what they want or who they are? How does that process work? >> Yeah, I like the long conversations to get to know someone. But it of course depends on the person um but the more I know about someone um yeah, the more personal it can get. >> What kind of questions do you ask? Um well usually the people that I work with are um art collectors as well. They have um interest beyond fashion into other forms of art. And I like to understand the other artists that they are interested in or even uh how they understand the world like what their perception on even religion or science is. just um to understand their form of reality because um yeah that that triggers me to um translate it into my materials. >> So you don't feel in any way limited by the fact that you know you have to make say a garment with armholes or you know the ability to sit down. >> Um no because I can take my freedom. I mean um I think there is sort of a ways most of the looks that I'm making are wearable, easy to wear. Um uh but there are also works that I'm creating that are really assured to explore the edges of the techniques or the materials. And um a good example is the 3D printing. When I started working on that, the first ones were still widgets because the 3D printers were really created for architecture and the softness was not needed. But by starting to work with the technology um the companies were also triggered or pushed to um innovate their materials and the printers. So sometimes you have to start working on a technique and have the patience to develop it. So now the 3D prints that we are making are flexible and soft and wearable and if I would have not done the more experimental pieces the pieces that we can do today would not exist. So I really believe in that um patience of putting a lot of time into the R&D because that that ultimately brings fashion forward. >> So so give me a kind of timeline for these techniques. How long would you work on something before it becomes, you know, either commercially viable or even seen? >> Yeah, it's a long time, much longer than people realize because when I was working on the 3D printing in 2009, um the technique was not well known, but actually behind the scenes, it was already in development for about 10 years. So, it takes a long time before something hits industries. And um yeah, then for me it took another I think four years to really get the technology where I wanted it to be and it's still ongoing. Um, still new materials are coming out and um, I spoke today about the 40 printing um, which started about 3 years ago and um, I'm very intrigued by the possibilities of it. But I know that it will probably take another four or five years at least um, before it's refined enough for me to bring it into that very um, fragile space of the body. Can can you explain a little bit about 4D printing? >> Yeah. Um it's a technique in which you can uh program a memory into a material. So uh a material can uh change shape over time for example. And I think it's um it really fits my way of working because somehow I am most drawn to my works when they are in the process of the creation because they keep on evolving and changing and when it's finished then it's almost like as if I don't know something is gone as well. And I think the 40 printing could be that bridge where the look will still evolve over time with you. Yeah. >> When you say the memory is embedded into the material, what does that actually mean? >> Um, it means that you for example can program a sequence of shapes into the material and that means uh because I'm always working on a silhouette and when the garment is finished that silhouette will not change anymore. So with this technique I can design basically over time uh like music is doing as well. So I can think of the silhouette as a start and I can think of other silhouettes where it will go into later. Yeah. Okay. So how do you find these different um kind of techniques and scientists that you're working with? How does you know coming from a dance and then fashion background? How do you then you know move into this world that is really very foreign to most people in those worlds? >> Yeah, I like to do a lot of research. Um some of the some of it is through uh through websites, some of it is through books, uh through exhibitions. Um but also through my network of creatives around me. There is [clears throat] um yeah artists and scientists that will also or even journalists sometimes uh that will write me uh with something they have discovered um and they had to think of me and the other way around when I uh discover something that I'm intrigued by I'll uh send it to others that I think could do something with it. So it's like a creative ecosystem um that is also part of that R&D. Yeah. And what is their reaction when you call them and say, "Hi, I'd like to make a dress out of your [laughter] out of your research." Um, it's getting uh much easier throughout time. I remember in the early years um people would be a lot more surprised um because the collaboration between fashion and other disciplines was not happening uh at all. And um I think now when I approach uh a university or a scientist um they um either they know the work or they research it and they understand the possibilities um more quickly. Yeah. But the timeline is always the uh yeah the the biggest gap because fashion is still moving very fastly and I'm trying to slow it down because I'm doing one um show a year but still in the we realms of science that's super fast. So I'm always trying to inspire them to think in shorter timelines and um yeah that can be a challenge. Yeah. Why why are you still even doing one show a year? You know, why why participate in what is, you know, essentially the commercial cycle of the fashion world? >> Yeah, I think I need it. Um, I definitely need a deadline because I am always changing things. Even the exhibition is a good example. Um, I am evolving the exhibition constantly because I'm changing and if I don't have a deadline, I would just create looks that keep on evolving and changing. So, um I definitely need that deadline and I think the one year show is a good amount of time to go really deep into the new techniques to have the possibilities of um really far out collaborations that need time uh and to also enjoy the process like to um Yeah. And so let's go back now to the sort of beginning of this combination of science and fashion and art. you know, when did that start for you and why did that start for you? >> Yeah, it slowly evolved. Um, I'm not techsavvy or I'm not a scientist that some people think. Uh, not at all. Um, I did the art academy um for fashion. Um, and throughout my studies, I was really focused on learning about the traditional sides of craftsmanship and couture because there's so much to learn there. And even the first two to three years that I was having my own >> [clears throat] >> uh brand, I was really focused on the more traditional techniques. And then it was actually through uh architects that I got to know that were using the 3D printing that I got curious like, oh that's such a different way of working. And I actually got stuck at that point because I had this water dress in my mind that I could not make with fabrics um or traditional techniques. So it was a perfect timing where I felt stuck in an idea that I had and meeting the architects that had a completely different um technique uh possibility. So I started collaborating with them and then um yeah that opened up a lot of new doors later. So from that collaboration I started to collaborate with other people and it slowly evolved into sort of a multiverse of different disciplines. >> Yeah. >> What other breakthrough moments like that have you had? You know like after 3D printing what was kind of your next big technological leap? >> I think it was actually biology. I would say I think another interesting collaboration um that happened was with uh Philip Beasley and also Neri Oxman. Uh with Neri Oxman we really went into the biology uh with the MIT and with Philip Beasley um yeah I I sometimes call him my material mentor um because he works with so many different disciplines at once you cannot even define it as a discipline. Um so yeah that that opened up again a lot of new different ways of thinking for me. Yeah. >> So talking about biology which systems do you feel sort of most attached to in your work? >> Uh it depends throughout time like it changes. I think an important collection to me uh was the woods of rebirth um where a biologist called Merlin Sheldrake inspired me to explore the fungi uh [snorts] world um and the underground networks um and it's really nature's communication system and we know so little about it and we're exploring a lot well we um biologists currently are exploring um a lot uh in that we realm and to me it just opened up a whole new world. Um and also in terms of growing fabrics I think a lot is going to um be possible. were already of course growing the mushroom uh leathers uh but also using the woods of plants to grow textures and textiles or even um the spy material that I've been working with [clears throat] using the fermentation process um into fashion. I really feel there is a lot um possible within the combination of um technology and biology. Yeah. >> So when you were first thinking about this exhibit and putting it together, how much did you think about, you know, what you want people to to learn from it >> because your techniques and your materials are so different from what most people think about certainly I think about I think people in the industry think about when they think about fashion. >> Yeah. Um it was really important for me already from the beginning of working on the exhibition to make the exhibition um not a fashion exhibition. It's a fashion exhibition but it's much more. Um and because there are so many different disciplines coming together maybe there's not even a word for this type of exhibition. And I really wanted to express my universe and my way of thinking. And I hope that when people have explored the exhibition that their perception of fashion has widened and that they see the interconnectedness with all the layers of life around this. Um yeah. >> Yeah. I mean I feel personally having seen it now in this is this second iteration I've seen but this is a fifth iteration right that it's been through. It is like it is an incredibly generous >> experience because it is a little bit like being inside your head. you know, which I think is not is not a place that's often accessible to people just looking at clothes. >> Um, >> how like as it's changed over time, what have you learned through the process of remaking it? >> Yeah, I have been adding elements. Um, one of the elements is the touch samples. I actually wanted that from the beginning. Um, but that m first museum in Paris had some constraints. So I'm really pleased that we are able to do it here. Um because when you touch the tactility of the materials, you understand the works that you're looking at so much better. So I even hope to keep on expanding that. And um the ATO has become a even more personal space um in Brooklyn um for multiple reasons. Um I've been creating a sightsp specific installation and um that really shows the handwork in the atlier uh in real time and I think one of the beautiful parts from couture is its slowness. Um I think there is a big value to find in slowing down the [clears throat] way we uh look at art but also the way we make it. And that insulation really brings you into the atria um quite deeply. So I hope people find that meditative space that I feel and experience in my atria because what I hear a lot when people come to my atria is they have this perception of fashion that people are running around and are in a stressful situation. But that is usually not the case. It's actually a beautiful space of meditation and [snorts] uh so I want also to change that perception um and to give people that experience. Yeah. I mean I think that the touch aspect is also interesting because it is true that often when people see your work you know the first thing they say is like wow that's not wearable or you know how do you how do you move in that or how do you do this because it will look >> hard or spiky or very constructed. >> Yeah. >> And in fact you often told me it was actually soft and wearable and I was like yeah mhm right >> but actually it is. >> I like to play with that perception. Um, I find a lot of inspiration in alchemy and that's like transforming one material into another and we are really doing that a lot in the textures and materials that we work with. um because a lot of the materials that we use are actually developed inside the atier or developed with partners around the globe and therefore I can really uh control the type of movements and I even like to manipulate the way uh a material moves or drapes. So even um materials that indeed people don't have a perception with on how it will behave or move, I always like to um warp that perception. So often things feel very differently than they look. >> Can you give an example? >> Um let's think of one. Um in forces behind the forms there is a 3D printed look uh done with um to Delft like the university in Delft in the Netherlands and it was the first time that we were able to put um a illusion tool inside the 3D printer. So that garment looks uh 3D printed and people have their perception with those materials but it's actually >> [snorts] >> um as soft as a embroidered look that we would do. Uh because the base layer is uh the illusion tool that I use a lot and that behaves like a second skin. uh you don't really feel it, you don't really see it, but it's there. And it's like a base layer of construction. And um that was a big moment for me uh to bring the more traditional techniques uh together with um the newer techniques because in the early uh times often one garment would be constructed from one technique. And if you look at my work now and you will explore that in the exhibition for sure, uh you will see even three or four different techniques merged into one look and um yeah that's giving me a lot of creative freedom. >> Yeah. What's some of the hardest things you've ever had to make >> or tried to make? One of the hardest processes or the most challenging processes was the living look [clears throat] that was done for simpis uh for my latest uh show in Paris and it's uh alive and it's created with a 125 million bilinence algae and the algae respond to the movement of the body and [snorts] it's done with a bio designer called Chris Bellamy and also the University of Amsterdam. And it's even hard to describe that process. Um throughout the process, we've had many moments where we thought this is not going to work. Um because it's such um sensitive and delicate process that no one had any experience with before. But it worked out in the end and I think it's really really special that it is in the exhibition. It's here. >> It's in the exhibition. Yeah. >> Which section is it in? >> It's in the first section. Yeah. >> And how do you maintain it? >> Uh it has a rhythm, a day, a day and a night rhythm. Uh so the light uh is their source of energy. So, um the light uh it's sort of inside a cabinet in glass cabinet and the light is controlled so it can sleep um for 8 hours just like we do. And uh there's also moisture inside the cabinet um because um that's their natural environment. Um that's about it. Yeah. How long does it live? Um well the individual lifespan of a algae is very short. It's a few days. Uh but you can look at it more as a organism as a whole like a beehive would be. Um so potentially it can live for a long time because they reproduce but if the reproduction would stop then it's going to live very short. So yeah, no one really knows. Yeah. >> Did Did you try it on? I haven't tried it on but uh it has been worn by a model on the oneway um and then uh we didn't want to whisk it too much so it yeah it was preserved to go into the exhibition. >> So what happens to a garment like that if you make it? I mean obviously it doesn't go onto a shop floor. >> No. >> Is it does it go to a collector? Well, I'm I'm thinking about it because we don't like it's such a new adventure. Um there are for example clients that are interested in that look, but do we then instruct the client with all the caregiving that it needs? It's something we still have to figure out. >> Yeah. Like >> it's not entirely thought through uh the whole process. >> No, you take your algo to work day. >> Yeah. Exactly. >> Yeah. >> So, in in the process of putting this the exist the exhibition together and then iterating it over time, did it make you think differently about your own work, you know, looking back on it and connecting maybe something from this collection to, you know, an older one? >> Yeah. Um it was in the beginning very um strange for me to look at all the works I've done because it was the first time that I really looked back at things and it was as if I was going through my whole diary. Um, and I realized throughout the making process of the exhibition how important the exhibition space and the museum space is for me. Um because I think it's actually one of the reasons that I decided to one to do one show a year because I think the exhibitions are a very good um combination with the shows because it shows the work in such a different way to such a wider audience as well. like the shows are very exclusive and [clears throat] you definitely feel the energy of the collection but you miss out on the details like the craftsmanship um even the deeper story lines and the inspirations and that's something you can explore in the exhibition so I definitely want to um make enough time to keep on developing the exhibition so that people can explore the work up close and in a more personal way. Um, and it was also the start of making some aerial sculptures just because I was thinking about the spaces and I've been working with all these different artists. Um, I just felt like going into that new adventure. Um, yeah. Um, talking about people exploring things in a personal way, you are actually adding something this time around that is very personal. >> It cannot go more personal than that. Do you want to tell people here about it? >> Yeah. Um, for the first time in Brooklyn, I'm going to construct a new creation live in the atria. So, inside the museum, I'll be working uh on a new design by hand. And I'm also inviting people like visitors individually to join me in the making process. Um it's a very beautiful uh hand technique. Um and I think that's really a way that people can uh literally feel what the process is of a couture garment and they can be a part of it. And um to me it's also about the conversations that happen because this happens inside my atier. I'm working really hands-on with the people there and it's like a collaborative spirit that I want to bring into the exhibition here as well. So, I'm going [clears throat] to record the conversations that happen. Um, and the most inspiring parts of the conversations will be embroidered inside the garment uh at the end. So it really becomes like a time capsule um of this moment in time in Brooklyn and I'm sure that the people will that will join me will also influence or inspire me in unexpected ways. So it might lead to other adventures as well. >> Yeah. And I mean there's so many different elements in the exhibit, you know, your own work, fossils, bones, artwork, furniture. How complicated was the gathering process and the connecting process? >> Yeah. Um, it was one of my favorite parts because I'm always doing that we sit. I'm always working [clears throat] with artists and other people and it was very intuitive. Like when I started working on the exhibition, I already had so many people in mind that we just started to approach people and there was such enthusiasm and a lot of artists have actually created works especially for the exhibition. Um so it was really joyful and intuitive. Yeah. >> Was anybody [snorts] like what do you mean you want my stuff in a fashion show? >> Um not necessarily. I do know that some national history museums um uh what I recall from Matthew had some difficulties understanding that relationship um but mostly it has been very positive. Yeah. Yeah. >> And so what um do is it going to go somewhere next you know >> um we are in conversation with uh multiple museums. Um, we hope to bring it to a few other places in the US before going to Asia, but um, I cannot say anything at this moment. But, um, it will be here until December. So, that's a long time. >> Are you going to be making the garment until December? >> Yeah. Um, but I cannot be here all the time, of course, because I'm working on a new collection. So, I'll be in and out. Um, and I'll just be here as often as I need to in order to hopefully finish it. Yeah. >> How many people work with you in your atalier? >> Um, we are around 20 with the team and then towards the show it gets bigger. So yeah, >> I mean I think one of the extraordinary things about you is that you have, you know, managed to create a life and a career as an independent designer/ artist, whatever we're going to call you. How hard has that been? Um I have made decisions um to keep on focusing on couture where of course people around me [clears throat] would advise me to go into the ready to wear because that's uh the most common way of doing um or having a a brand in fashion. But as I have an artist mind, it's just a very intuitive decision to do it my way. And I feel very proud that I can focus on couture and that is so pure uh in the atier like we create one of looks uh yeah one of looks for people and that's how the whole ettoier is um kept alive and I really hope to be able to keep on doing that uh to show that there are different ways to work in fashion and couture has an important place in fashion as well. Yeah. >> I mean, what kind of sacrifices does it involve doing this all yourself? >> I [clears throat] think the biggest sacrifice is that uh I would like I'm not creative the whole day. Like in my ideal situation, I would be designing and creating the whole day, seven days a week. But that's not the case because I'm also running the studio eventually because um yeah even if you have a team uh it involves so much. So I think that's a sacrifice where a creative director for a bigger brand might have more time to focus on the creations alone. But on the other hand um my biggest luxury in life is my creative freedom. And um if I would go into ready to wear there is a lot of constraints and all the techniques that I'm uh developing would not be possible in that realm. So I I really have ultimate creative freedom and that [clears throat] means so much to me and I'm trying to protect that um as much as I can. >> Yeah. I mean, I think the designers for big brands besides um not having to do the the organizational stuff also probably have nicer vacations. >> Probably. Yeah, absolutely. No, time is definitely Yeah. Um limited for me. Uh I wish there was more of it. Definitely. But I really stand behind my decisions here. Yeah. >> Do do you think it's important to you that you're based in Amsterdam and not in a fashion capital? Um, I think eventually I could be anywhere. Like at some point I had in mind to perhaps move the studio to New York. Um, because the city is so alive and creative and inspirational. Um, there has been a time where I thought maybe to move the studio to Paris, but eventually I always uh stayed in Amsterdam because um I like to be in my own bubble as well. I think fashion is a very important part in my life, but I don't want to always be thinking about fashion. And I think if I would be in in Paris, um I think my world would be much more fashion driven. So I like to be in and out. And I think Amsterdam is a treat sweet spot for me where the city is creative [clears throat] and my studio is there but I can be in and out of Paris. So it's a good balance and that gives me possibilities to also work on the other disciplines and um not to get sucked in into um one way of working. Do do you feel pressure from these different industries to kind of become more, you know, of them essentially, you know, like that the art world wants you to be more like a typical artist and the fashion world wants you to be more like a typical designer, you know, and they don't really understand the hybrid nature of your work. I think um years ago definitely. I think um for quite some years within fashion people have tried to mold me into a more uh standardized uh fashion designer or brand. um within the art world. [sighs] I mean I had the luck that I was working with Mia from a very um from the very beginning actually but I never really felt pressure on that side. Um but nowadays I think people understand um that I need that space in between and I need to fly around and uh No, I don't really feel but I think people have given up that they can um put me in a box. Yeah. >> Yeah. It's true. You you look very kind of fragile and frail but actually you're very strong willed as I understand it. >> Yeah. Yeah. I'm very stubborn as well. Yeah. [laughter] Give give [clears throat] me an example of when someone tried to push you around and failed. H um well the the ready to wear is actually a very good example. I won the unam awards and I got a mentorship from a big group and of course the whole mentorship was about um going into the wedding tour and even the award was supposed to go in there. So I had to do that adventure. Um and to me it was just like going back to school because the techniques that I was able to use with those factories were very standardized techniques even the materials that I used were not possible to bring in that we real. So [clears throat] I did a very few collections and then I knew even um more strongly and deeply that the wood that I had taken is my wood. So um yeah people tried hard to move me into um yeah a a more of a mass production industry. Uh but it just doesn't work for me. No. Have you ever had a moment of self-doubt? >> Definitely. I think it's part of every creative process. Um I think it would be uh yeah it would be impossible not to have that and I think it's actually also the way you move forward. It's really even all the failures. Um I the atria is um a good example of that because we have all the techniques uh displayed there and you see all the ideas that are there but also a lot of the failures in the process. Um, the more you experiment, the more you fail. And I've had to learn that those moments are important. But [snorts] of course, um, at first you try and go against it and you try to do everything perfectly or you try to make your decisions more safely to avoid the failures and throughout time I learned that I need to embrace them and um, I need to let go of uh, control sometimes. Yeah. Can you give me an example of a failure that then led to something else? Um, [sighs] let me think. There's different ones. I'm I'm trying to think of one that is in the exhibition. [snorts] Um, I think actually the early samples of the look that we created for Eileen. Uh >> that's if if you guys don't know what it is, it's the bubble dress that Eileen Goo wore to the Met Gala that also like emitted bubbles. >> Yeah. Yeah. That was a challenging piece and it actually evolved throughout many different years because a very first iteration of it is um shown in the first room in the exhibition um from the Syaku collection and it's made of glass. But as a fashion designer, it's not easy to work with glass. So the very early samples did not work out at all because I didn't want to see any construction. Um so sewing was even out of the options. And how do you create a garment if you cannot sew it? So um we um put a fine layer of silicon on top of the glass in order to create the silhouette. Um but that's the moment where it finally started to work. But all the earlier samples didn't work out at all. And um for the new look that we've been creating um we actually explored a whole new technique um which make the look much more wearable, very lightweight, um much more comfortable. And then together with a Murakami, the artist, we've been able to dissolve the look. Uh so wheel bubbles are coming out of the glass bubbles and there is even helium inside. So the bubbles go up. So it's uh defying gravity. And to me it was a response to the theme this year that was about the body. And uh in fashion the body is referenced so much but often from the visual aspect of it. And um I'm drawn by the anatomy of the body but also the inner workings. And if you look at the body from a scientific perspective um or even atomic perspective um 99.9% is empty space. And that just blows my mind that we're practically empty space and the arrow dress, that's the official name. I know everyone calls it the bubble dress, so which makes sense. Um is a response to uh that perception of the body. Yeah. >> Okay. I have one last question and then we'll go to your guys questions. Yeah. >> Um what's the most exciting new technology beside the 4D printing for you right now? That's a good question. Uh, but I'm working on my new collection. So, I'm working on um two techniques that I'm really uh excited about. Uh, but I'm not going to say too much about it because I want it to be, of course, a complete surprise when it comes out. But it has to do with um electricity. Let's say like that. Yeah, >> that's like my imagination is now like going very many weird places. >> That's good. That's good. >> Do we have the questions? [clears throat] >> I have to put my glasses. Oh, this is interesting. I'm curious to know what your garments sound like. Do you consider auditory reception when you're designing? >> Oh, I love that question. Um yeah, music is a really important part of my process and um also in the exhibition there are soundsscapes created by my partner Salvador Bra and um we are uh already collaborating for 17 years. Um we work in the same building. So when I'm developing a collection, he sees the whole process and as we're um knowing each other so well, he's really able to translate those materials and textures into uh soundsscapes. And um yeah, I think because of him, sound has become such an important part of my process. Yeah. >> And can you talk a little bit about the sound in the exhibit? >> Yeah. Um, every womb has a theme and Salvador has been um, yeah, embodying the themes into soundsscapes and what it does is I think they really slow you down. Um, and that's exactly what I want the exhibition to do. you sort of get into a slower speed into a meditative state. And um every womb has a different sonic experience, but it fits the theme so well that for example in skeletal embodiment, Salvador created these sort of inner sounds of skeletal structures um that are in conflict with each other. I I really feel in that space that you're feeling your own body and uh the cosmic bloom is another example of where we sort of created a sonic universe together because throughout the years we collaborated with a lot of other sound artists and all of these artists have been working together on creating uh the sound of the cosmos and soft has been creating a sonic sense soundsscape for that cosmic blooms. space and you are just transported into another universe and um it's such an important part of the exhibition. So I hope um that people will be somewhat silent when they are in the exhibition to really um feel the soundsscapes as well. Yeah. [clears throat] You spoke about growing fabric. Do you think that the mainstream or fast fashion brands might pick up your techniques as a way to create a more sustainable industry? And can you share any new innovations that haven't been observed by the public yet? Um well I definitely hope of course that um because often couture is a starting point uh for uh brands to um translate those inspirations into the ready to wear and um the techniques that were developing or even the materials that were creating with other companies I don't patent them or keep them for our atrial A I think the more they go around the better and a lot of the techniques and materials are focused on sustainability. So they are either recycled or biodegradable and um there is an amazing um innovation happening worldwide from a lot of different houses um and atro on the creation of these new uh textiles. So I'm feeling very positive on that or at that end that so much is happening. We are not the only ones. Um [snorts] and I feel that's really important. Um I think there is more awareness. Uh definitely and I think for the big brands it's really hard to >> [snorts] >> um incorporate that in all the items but in the smaller brands you see a lot of progress happening. Yeah. Have you actually seen any examples of techniques or materials that you you know created that are now being used by other designers or other houses? Yeah, definitely. I mean the 3D printing of course is very common almost now um in all kinds of um like garments but also shoes and other accessories, bags, even uh glasses etc or jewelry. Um but also the materials the sustainable materials uh that we um like we work with party for the ocean for example and that's an amazing organization that works with so many brands. So um that's another example or even uh the spy company they are doing uh really amazing research into um organic materials and they are also being picked up uh fastly. Yeah. Or the mushroom letters uh they are becoming sort of mainstream and that's really pos positive. Your designs draw from natural elements. So, there are places in the world where you'd like to visit and travel. >> Sorry. I What is the first? >> Your designs draw from natural elements. Like, what what's on your wish list to travel to? >> Um, well, one of my favorite places is Japan. Uh, and I'm going there in August again. And the love for craftsmanship there is amazing to explore. Um, and I, yeah, I'm going there in August to explore nature more. because I've been mostly in the cities, but Japan is really a place for me uh of inspiration and I really want to go to Mexico. I have not been and I feel really drawn to explore nature there. Yeah. >> Do you like do do you do hiking or snorkeling or >> I love hiking? Absolutely. I do that. Um I've been doing snorkeling a bit and I want to do more. Yeah, definitely. Yeah. >> Okay. What are some inspirations or concepts you've wanted to explore for years, but the techn technological capabilities are not yet there to bring your ideas to life? Well, there is a material um that I saw perhaps already 12 years ago, maybe 14 years ago, and it's called the invisibility clock. And I had and I think it's developed by the US Army and I had good hopes that I would be able to work with it but they don't let me. >> No. No. Wait. Did Did you ask them? >> Uh we definitely approached them but never heard back. [laughter] >> Did you approach them again? >> Yeah. I will. That's a good uh reminder. Yeah. >> What would you make with it? >> Um well I love to play with the perception of the body. So if you can make certain parts disappear and um change other parts then you can reconstruct the whole body. So yeah more questions. [clears throat] >> Is there anyone you would like to collaborate with that you haven't been able to yet? Um, that is a very good question. Well, it's not necessarily a person, but I've had NAZA in my mind. Um, and I don't clearly know in what direction, but I do think uh interesting um research could come out of that. Yeah, like it could already start just by talking to certain uh scientists there. Um I have done a collaboration with someone who actually worked for NASA uh but became an artist. Um he's called Kim Kever and he's actually in the exhibition and we've been collaborating on some looks that are in the cosmic bloom sess uh section. But um yeah, I feel like so and NAZA is such a hub for um amazing minds that I'm sure that I could uh find new perspectives to my work there. >> Would you like to send something up into space? >> Not necessarily. I like Earth too much. Yeah. Yeah. [snorts] Um if you were to choose a historical figure to dress, who would it be? >> [clears throat] >> The first one that came up to my mind was Hiro in his bush, but it wouldn't make sense because it's not a not a woman and I I I work for women. Um, but I'm just so in love with the work. Um, historical figures. Um, Mona Lisa, [snorts] that would be interesting. No, like Yeah, there are so many people to think of, but that's one that could come up. Yeah, because we know so little about her. Yeah. >> Okay. So, on this subject of men, um, would you consider exploring masculine forms and armor shells and plating as it occurs in nature? Um well the earliest works in the exhibition are from my chemical crouch collection and it's partly also inspired by uh the samurai constructions like the metal weaving. Um so there's a bit of that in my work. Yeah. Yeah. >> Yeah. I mean I think certainly some of the early 3D printing feels kind of armoral. >> Absolutely. Yeah. Some of them could act like eoskeleton or exoskeleton. Yeah. Yeah. >> Would you consider making clothes for men? >> I sometimes do it um on special requests and uh one example is Jordan W um who lives here in New York. Um but he has a creative freedom to masculinity and femininity and that gives me also freedom in uh what I create. So I feel really drawn to create for him and others that also carry that freedom. Uh but if someone is looking for a more traditional um masculinity then I'm not the right person. No, >> you don't want to make a pants suit. >> No. No. There's uh many people uh doing a great job in that already. Yeah. Okay. I I I am the daughter of immigrants, the first in my family to study design and to go to FIT. My family doesn't believe in my art, passion, and drive to create. What would you say to someone like me who wants to create her own line without the support of family? >> Ah, yeah, that's a good one. Um, [sighs] like I've always um I've made some hard decisions uh throughout my uh brand and they have not been easy and um I do feel that um whatever I do now is really really me and I I think I've seen people around me that sort of along the way keep losing themselves because they are influenced too much by the people around them. And I think you can in life either decide to have other people influence you or that you influence those people. So I think if you uh keep on continuing what you love most then uh I am hopeful that you will actually inspire your family later on with what you do and change their perception. And I've seen that happen with other people like I know artists around me that did not have any support from their family in the beginning but it changed throughout time. So, I'm hopeful that that can happen with you as well. >> Just to follow up on that, can you share some of the hard decisions or one of the hard decisions you had to make? >> Um, definitely. Um, well, one of them was to stay in Amsterdam because it influences of course uh the way I work and with who I work. Um, but another one is to not go into commercial adventures. Uh that is definitely the hardest one that I keep on having to balance. Um but the continuous um decision between art and commerce because eventually um um having a a healthy studio also means creative freedom. So it's a very delicate balance that I uh have to make decisions on all the time like uh who you work with which partners do we collaborate with um yeah it's a hard decision often. How >> how do you balance art and commerce? >> Um it's all based on intuition. Um I think um creativity is very fragile and throughout the the years I've had to or I I realize that I have to protect that um creativity and um therefore I make always long-term decisions and they are very different than short-term decisions And I think a lot of people tend to make short-term decisions. Like everything that I do, I want to have meaning in 100 years or 200 years. And that's a very different decision process than if I uh make something that is just speaking to the time now. And yeah, I think that's always in the back of my mind and that definitely comes from um working within the we arms of art from the very beginning because fashion and art have a very different way about thinking of time. Yeah. >> So when you're thinking about making something that has meaning over the long term, how how does that process look? Like what questions are you asking yourself? Um, it's interesting because it actually requires not to think too much but to be in touch with my subconscious and I discover it. I've mean I've tried different processes in my work. Um but the more I design a look uh out of my mind the more current it is and the more I go into a more meditative state or like I also do some meditation like transcendental meditation the more I am in touch with like a deeper layer um that really comes from intuition and to trust that intuition the more I sort of um and drawn to those works. in many years after because it's as if I'm sort of time traveling then as if I can predict myself in the years to come. So I think the creative process might not be linear at all. So the more I'm in touch with my subconscious, the more I can free myself from time. Talk me through a typical day for you. Like literally what time do you get up and yeah what's what's your routine like? >> My alarm usually goes um around 7:20 7:15. Um I live just outside of the city now. Um, so I go and hug my dog and I go and feed uh the ducks that we have and [snorts] then we go onto a long walk together with my partner. And that's really how like we never skip that. That's so important. That's how we um can slowly move from like a dream state into uh yeah the ordinary reality of the day. that we really take like 45 minutes to an hour for that walk and it's in a bird sanctuary so I feel really connected with nature and uh that always fills me up with energy and inspiration and then we go to the atria and um every day is different there uh I have my creative days where I'm just draping or doing research and I have my days that I'm working with my team uh on the collection and on um things that are coming up like exhibitions or shows. So yeah, that is sort of a short summary. >> When does it end? >> H when does it end? >> Well, I tend to make long days. Um I have my studio day and then usually I go home, I don't know, 7 8 uh make some food and then I often like to do some things at home. I have a small AT there and um I [sighs] like my most creative moments are when I'm alone. I love working with the team. Um but that private space is also really important for me. So for a long time and I cannot recommend that to anyone, I [clears throat] have been only working on my designs in either late evenings or weekends because like the normal hours would always be for a studio. Um but I have to take a bit more creative time. So now it's more mixed. Uh which is much more healthy. Yeah. Do you actually get any vacations? >> I do. Yeah, but I would say the first 12 years not much, but now I uh definitely take them not a lot, but I take them also to share time with uh Salvador and to find new inspiration. Yeah. >> What memories would you infuse into a 4D printed dress? >> Oh, that's a good question. Um, of of course it will be hard to predict because I like to not overthink things. So I think when I have the technology in my hands and when I'm in that moment, in that zone, I'm sure it will influence me uh with a very different direction than I can come up now. Um I really like to explore a technique uh to make it my own and then to design with it. Uh because in the beginning a technique is often instructing you because you don't know it so well. It's the same as a sculpture working with stone or a material you need to work with it for a long time and then that shift happens then you suddenly become in control of the technique. So with this technique, I would do a lot of experimentation before I would even think about what I would design with it. I have a very hands-on approach. Yeah. >> What is the timeline for it? >> For this >> 4D printing, if we're making it something real, you think you could show? Um it of course depends on how it will be developed. Um in the stages where I am not involved. I imagine this to be another 3 to four years at least but it could also be five and then I think I probably need a year or so uh to experiment. Yeah. Rough guess. Yeah. Yeah. And so how how does it work with your collaborators? Because there clearly can't all be in Amsterdam. How much time are you spending kind of traveling around meeting with them? Well, most of it is happening online and that's the great thing about today like um even the exhibition most of it is done through um online meetings and of course in the process also with collaborators you travel to each other um in at important moments to have that physical uh and personal contact but um most of it is I would say 90% of it is done online. Yeah. Yeah. Okay, I have one last question unless there's final questions from the audience. If someone has a little note card they want to wave, >> you can do it. [snorts] >> There's another one. I like the note system. Yeah, >> I know. It's like passing notes in school. >> Yeah. >> When was the first moment you were able to know in grasp you had sesthesia? >> Um, to be very honest, I don't really remember the first time. Um, somewhere I would say 15 16 um and yeah I don't remember the very first time but um I think it's around that age. Yeah. >> Do do you want to talk about what role it's played in your work? >> Yeah definitely. Um so I have a light version of it. everyone or most people have different kinds of senastasia but uh I can see patterns uh when I hear certain music um and I have been using that in my design process sometimes. So when you see the exhibition, you will see a lot of patterning uh not in of course also in the construction of the garments. Uh but I mean patterning in line work um in all kinds like the artworks that I um in the looks um to laser cutting or to uh dying or printing and um yeah some of those patterns come from uh come from music and there has also been a special collaboration I've been doing with um Salvador for my Syaku collection. I collaborated with a sound ball artist from Japan. And um those sounds uh that were recorded um were also used in simatics and simatics is um sort of visualizing sound in met. So that can be done through sand or water and those patterns has al have also been an inspiration for yeah some of the line works in the collection. So even the sumigashi technique is another pattern technique uh that I'm really fond of. Um, it's also a Japanese technique where ink is um placed in water and the water sort of um makes the ink move in a very specific way creating very beautiful organic patterns and um in the first room you'll also find the look that is created through that patterning process. So yeah, in my work I'm always looking for different ways to come to patterns. Yeah. Okay. How do you recommend building relationships with scientists and technology experts? How do you start? How to form relationships? Oh wow. Um that is a good question. Well, I think in my personal experience, it's important to not start with a goal. Um when I get to know someone, I am just uh curious to what that person is doing and whether we could uh test some things out. But I know that it not necessarily has to come to a uh a garment or something um yeah physical in the end. Sometimes even the experimentations and the dialogues are very fruitful for both sides. So um the best collaborations I've done usually start with just a curiosity for each other without having a um uh a thought out sort of collaboration plan because that can be very limiting. you can miss out on actually something much more interesting that you didn't think of and um so I would advise the more open-minded you start the whole process the lesser pressure you put on it as well uh the more joyful it becomes so I would recommend if you approach people to approach them in a way that you just like to explore the possibilities of uh getting to know each other and to do some experiments and then in that process you'll dis Yeah. Yeah. But that's sort of second tier. Okay. I have one last question. Um because we've had you talking for a while now. When you imagine yourself 10 years in the future, 20 years in the future, 50 years in the future, what's the kind of most exciting thing you can dream up that you could make? Um well I I've been working with different disciplines and I just hope that I'll um discover new disciplines that I cannot even think of today. Um I hope to be working in a way in 30 or 40 years that I cannot just I cannot imagine it today. That's what I ultimately hope. Yeah. >> Great. Thank you so much. Please join me in thanking our [applause]