Brené Brown: The Algorithms Have Forced Us Into A Hidden Epidemic, This Is The Only Way Out!

You are the single most requested guest. And let me tell you, this has not been easy cuz we went to some hard places, but I don't think we'll ever talk about anything more important than this cuz it's not fear that gets in the way of us being brave with our lives and our work. [music] It's the armor that we reach for to self-protect when we're afraid and how [music] that armor moves us away from love, connection, and our values. And [music] the hardest work is being aware of what is my armor when I'm afraid. Is that automatic? Oh, no, it's a training. So, let's start with that, then. Brené Brown is an icon whose world-leading research in shame, vulnerability, and connection >> has inspired [music] companies like Pixar, Google, and the US Special Forces >> to build stronger leaders and help the everyday person unlock their full potential. Ready? Is vulnerability important? >> It is if we want to be brave with our lives, but we were raised to believe that vulnerability is weakness. >> [music] >> Like in my family, we were allowed anger, but sad was not an option. You needed to be tough. So, when I get scared, when I [music] feel anxious, disappointed, I'm just angry. And so, when you're raised without vulnerability, it'll put you in jeopardy. Like you want to know what vulnerability is? Joy. Joy is so vulnerable [music] that people choose to live disappointed rather than to get excited about something and risk getting sucker punched by disappointment. Like there is no courage without vulnerability because courage is the willingness to show up and be all in when you cannot predict the outcome. Wow, I've never thought about that before. But you can develop skills. Like it's skills, that's courage? >> Yes. We've taken 165,000 people through this work. That included how to build trust. >> And I've heard about your marble jar theory. Could you explain to me what your marble jar You look at how excited you are. I know. So, this is how we teach trust to the most senior leaders in Fortune [music] 100 companies. It's awesome. I see messages all the time in the comment section that some of you didn't realize you didn't subscribe. So, if you could do me a favor and double-check if you're a subscriber to this channel, that would be tremendously appreciated. It is the simple, it's the free thing that anybody that watches this show frequently can do to help us here to keep everything going in this show in the trajectory it's on. So, please do double-check if you subscribed and uh thank you so much because in a strange way you are you're part of our history and you're on this journey with us and I appreciate you for that. So, yeah, thank you. >> [music] [singing] >> Brené. In order to um understand all the work that you have done and the perspective that you have on the world and also who you are as a anomaly in many respects, I think it's probably important that I understand your earliest context. Where you've come from, what shaped you. I'm stuck on a Am I a Am I an anomaly? I think of course you're an anomaly. Of course you're an anomaly. It that that should be of no surprise to you. I mean, if you look at your outcomes, your outcomes are anomalous. So, one would assume that there's some form >> [snorts] >> something that made you an anomaly. I would say that I'm a fifth-generation Texan. Mhm. I came from a fair amount of dysfunction. Parents doing the best they could with what they knew. Both coming from really, really, really tough upbringings that included, you know, poverty, addiction. And so, probably a lot of the stereotypes you would think about fifth-generation Texan, tough, don't cry, we were allowed a very small continuum of emotions were approval, you know, were approved, which were pissed off or okay. Like anger was okay, but no, you know, couldn't be sad, really. Or vulnerability was not a thing. Vulnerability was weakness and scary and put you in jeopardy. I felt like a real outsider at home and in school. But I was really good at reading people, reading situations. I think my I I think a therapist somewhere along the way said Yes, that's hypervigilance. Mhm. You're hypervigilant. You know, I can see everything around me and everything that's going on. I can connect things very quickly that other people don't see. And there was laughter and there was love, but there was a ton of unpredictability. I was going to say, isn't that typically what creates hypervigilance is some kind of need to be that aware when you're young? Yeah. Yeah, I mean, I think yes. Being fun-loving was very valued in my family and being tough. These were the values. These are These are on the parental scorecard. Mhm. This is what got you an A. If you're fun, easy, you can, you know, shoot straight, spit far, fish well, like really, drive fast. And so, those things were very valued. Athleticism was very valued. Um But those fun things could turn really hard very quickly. There was a big pause there. 4-second pause as you >> Yeah, I could just picture it. Like it's fun until it's fun until you've got a parent ejected from a game for being so hard. And that was your father? >> Yeah. How he is really hard, then, if he was ejected from a game. Oh, yeah. Yeah, yeah. There's a photo I saw of you and your siblings where you're clutching your siblings. And I think you referred to it as you could see there was a certain fear in your eyes. Do you Do you know the photo I'm referring to? Am I on a couch? You're on a couch, is that >> Like a yellow velour couch like from the '70s? >> Yes. Yeah. I think about that picture. I like that picture, but there is definitely I definitely had a protector role as the oldest. I mean, code name Sister Superior. It was jokingly, but it wasn't joking. Like if things got hard between my parents and they would get involved till fights, I would go get all my siblings, put them in my room. I'd go downstairs and handle it, you know, like I was definitely the protector. Physically volatile fights? Um on occasion, but more emotionally volatile. Screaming and shouting? >> yeah. Same with my parents. Yeah, just loud. As a background in my whole house for my whole childhood was just screaming. There was a Yeah, we had a lot of screaming and there's a certain Like if you grew up with screaming, hearing screaming through a wall, Mhm. you [clears throat] know that sound. >> Mhm. Do you know that sound? >> Mhm, of course, yeah. Oh my god, it's my whole childhood. Yeah. >> Seven nights a week of screaming. Yeah. And so, yeah, I'm sorry because I don't like to hear that about your childhood and I don't like to know that about my childhood, but there was a lot of screaming. And so, I think hypervigilant, protective, responsible, with a dose of be very [ __ ] careful because I will protect my siblings. And and how did that change your model of love as a young person? It must have been cuz I mean, I obviously feel the same way about about my situation and um I think the lesson I learned was that love was like a prison cuz it was my mom doing the shouting and my dad was the prisoner and he wouldn't respond. So, this you got a woman shouting at him for 6, 7 hours a day and him sat there like he's a like inanimate object looking at the screen. And I remember thinking, "Oh, okay. So, if I get in a relationship when I'm older, then I'm going to be a prisoner to a woman. Okay." Doesn't sound Doesn't sound appealing. And if he moved to a different room, she'd follow him. So, I avoided relationships like the [ __ ] plague. I did well until about 27. >> [clears throat] >> And then what? And then someone got over the wall and corrected to some of the evidence. They got over the wall? >> over the wall somehow. Yeah, Steve got over the wall. Damn it. Well, that's your part of not me, just for context. >> No, not Yeah, NOT YOU. >> [laughter] >> ALTHOUGH YOU'RE DOING A HELL OF A JOB RIGHT NOW. Um you're like you've crossed the piranha-filled moat that I like. Um but the drawbridge is like I'm see I'm just see I'm going to see. My Steve My Steve definitely definitely got over the wall. Um but it was like game game recognizes game. He had a wall. Oh, okay. >> Yeah. And so, we had long conversations about our walls and and slowly through those conversations, we just those walls crumbled with each other and we've been together now for 38 years. >> Wow. Yeah. Um hardest thing I've ever done in my life. Bar none, dude. Nothing has been harder. When I started dating Steve, well, when we got married, 6 months after we got married. This is, you know, you you said for you love was going to be being a prisoner. Mhm. And having to just shut down to survive. >> Mhm. Right? >> Run away. Don't confront it. No conversations, no fights. >> No. No. Um for me, 6 months after we were married, I went to go see a therapist and I said, "I cannot do this. I've got to get out of this marriage." And we had dated off and on for 7 years before we got married. And I said, "I got to get out." And she said, "I could The This is hard. I I could see how this is not working." And I was like I had a twinge of defensiveness about Steve and I said, "What do you mean?" And she said, "He likes you so much more than you like you. It must be terrible." I was like, "Fuck you, MAN. YOU'RE FIRED." >> [laughter] >> I WAS I WAS SO I I thought, "What?" That's what I do. So, if you I'm going to give you one of my tells. If I do a really high-pitched "What?" That means I'm That means I'm looking for my purse and I'm get I know where the door is. Um I I I I just kept thinking, "What do What do you mean?" He said, "It's got It's got to be very comf- uncomfortable to be with someone who sees you and really knows you and loves you so much when you have not found a way to see you and love you so much. It's got to be disconcerting." What an [ __ ] man. Like, wow. And it was true. I had to get to this point where I was like, I Maybe I should like me as much as he likes me and then make a better decision about whether this is going to work or not. When you grow up and pissed off or shut down are your two emotional opportunities. Like, that you know, in Atlas of the Heart, I write about 87 emotions that I think are important to understand because the limits of our language are the limits of our world. When you have two buckets, then everything must go in those. And in fact, in our research over the last 15 years, we found the average person can accurately identify and name three emotions: happy, sad, pissed off. Mhm. >> [clears throat] >> And so, in my family, sad was not an option. That was weakness. So, you could be pissed or okay. So, when I get scared, when I feel grief, when I'm anxious, when I feel disappointment, when I feel anguish, I'm just angry. There's two sort of outstanding question marks in my head, and they might be the same answer, but it's You said earlier on that you didn't fit in at school or at home, and I didn't understand why you didn't fit in at school or at at home. And then the other thing that's sort of a question mark in my head is the therapist said to you that you well, asserted that you didn't like yourself as much as he liked you, and I wasn't clear on what made you not like yourself. I wanted out of where I was raised. I wanted to leave everything I knew. And so, I always felt like an outsider. I didn't I didn't want to do I mean, I wasn't popular. I wasn't dating a quarterback. That was a dream that my my parents and their parents and their parents, you know, you were you were a Bear Cadet and you dated a quarterback. And you got a farm. So, at I felt not cute, not popular, not understood. And then at home, I wasn't easygoing. I was ang- I was anxious and and always ready. And the point about self-esteem, which the therapist would have highlighted about not liking oneself as much as Steve liked you, where did that come from? Or is that related in some way? Oh, cuz my parents parented with a very big a heaping dose of shame. Oh, okay. So, if you accomplish something or you don't accomplish something, you're made to feel bad about it. >> Yeah. And a ton of it was about appearance, being fun, appearance? Yeah. Yeah, like, you know, big blonde hair with hot rollers, the higher the hair, the closer to God. You needed to be tough and strong and throw on a baseball cap and get somewhere really quick, low maintenance, and you needed to be a beauty pageant queen. Do you remember them ever being critical of your appearance in a way that has stayed with you? Oh my god, yes. I mean, I think not just them. I mean, like, I think having young girls and young women keeping them from developing threats to their self-esteem is not just a parental thing. It's like it's It's like asking them not to breathe because the air is poison. Like, it's like every message from everywhere, you know, the fashion magazines, you'd read them and you'd think, "Wow, I don't I don't look like this. How am I going to look like this?" You know, and you'd lather yourself up with baby oil and you put lemon juice in your hair, you put tin foil under your chin, get as much skin cancer as you could cuz we didn't know, you know, like, you you'd We all wore jeans that you had to put on with pliers with for the zipper cuz they were so tight. Appearance mattered. This is Texas, baby. You go off to university eventually, and not a straight line, but eventually you get into university. Not a straight line. Mhm. That's the sweetest thing you've said to me. Um I graduated from college when I was 29. Well, so you become a research professor in 2001. >> [clears throat] >> And you've been a research professor and many more things um ever since then. You get your PhD in social work at the University of Houston, Texas between '96 and 2002. And really for the last couple of decades, you've focused on research, understanding people. Obviously, there's so many more strings to your bow in terms of like media and podcasting and authorship. But over those since 2001, we're in 2025 now, just over two decades. My first question is um how has your perspective on How has the world changed in those last two decades in your view? Unions would say before any great progression, there is a regression. And I think that when you look at various admin- I know you have a very global audience. When you look at administrations, political administrations across the world, and you look at how power is being used right now, it will tell you a lot about what they're afraid of. Mhm. What What is that face? We're going to have to pause it. >> I was thinking about a conversation I had recently with my my best friends. It must have been this weekend. Yeah, it was this weekend cuz it was my friend's birthday in Manchester, the UK, so we flew in. Um and we had a conversation about how the leading political narrative at the moment, this might be adjacent to what you were saying, but it's the way I interpreted it. The leading political narrative at the moment that seems to be getting people elected is if you say those people with that skin color are the reason for the pain and anguish in your life, it's actually the people below you that are coming over the border or crossing the the English Channel on dinghies that are ruining your life, and it seems to be like a really effective narrative to 100%. empower both in the US and the UK. Like, the central narrative that is swaying elections it seems at the moment in the UK and the US is those brown people on that boat or coming over the border are the reason for the pain in your life, and it seems to work, and that seems to be the thing getting power. So, that's kind of what ran through my head when I heard this idea of like power and what you're scared of. I actually think I inverted it to if I can tell you what to be scared of or find the thing you might be scared of or whatever, then I get power. But maybe it goes the other way, too. I don't think we'll ever talk about anything more important than this, to be honest with you. That's why I thought your response was so interesting cuz you you you may if I was going to like do the text box above your face, Mhm. it would have said, "Well, holy [ __ ] That's interesting." Because we when you use power, especially power over, cuz there's multiple kinds of power. There's power with and to and power within. So, people that use power with and to and power within work from a belief system that's completely different. We believe that power is infinite and can grow when shared. People who use power over work from a belief system that power is finite, like pizza, and if I give you any, I have a deficit. So, it's got to be hoarded and protected and not shared. Power over is really important to understand because when people are using power over, they're definitely letting you know what they're afraid of because that's what they're focused on. And they're tapping into, and I think this is absolutely true, if you give people someone to dislike and blame for their pain, and they look different than the people who are voting, you [clears throat] will win 100 times out of 100. If you say, "I see your pain. I can tell you exactly the source of it, and I can fix this for you. And [clears throat] the source of it is going to be easy to see. You're not going to see yourself in them." Mhm. So, that narrative that you were talking about, it is a full circle. People in power use power to address issues that they're afraid of. They gain power by leveraging fear and giving people an enemy. That's how this works. It works like this I mean, I spend 95% of my time in organizations working with C-suite leaders and senior leaders. This This is how it works in organizations, how it works in political, you know, how it works in faith communities. This is how power works in general. So, power over is a very specific kind of power, and it's especially dangerous because in order to maintain it, you have to engage in periodic bouts of cruelty towards vulnerable populations. You have to remind people what you're capable of. So, there's four types of power you you you speak about in um Damn, you [clears throat] have that in your notes? >> in Strong Ground. Yes. Why are you surprised? I don't know. It's It's four types of power and leadership you speak about. There's the power over, which is controlling or exploiting and there's power with finding common ground and building collective strength, power to which is giving others agency and recognizing their potential, and power within which is honoring differences and self-worth. So, as a leader of a business, if I were to be successful, are you telling me that I need to stay away from power over and adopt another power within this list of four? Yeah, I think what we've seen be very successful over time is power with, power to, and power within. So, collaborative power, co-creation power, self-awareness, metacognition, knowing yourself, knowing how you think and learn. So, power with and power to. Power over is excruciatingly difficult to maintain. We're not neurobiologically hardwired to stay in fear for very long. So, if I work for you if I work for you, and you're using power over to lead me, you're threatening me with my job, you're threatening me with consequences, you're threatening me with demotion, one of two things is going to happen for me neurobiologically. I am either going to just become numb to it. It's not It's not going to be able to You're not going to maintain I can't maintain that constant level of fear. It's just too demanding. >> [snorts] >> Just physically demanding. Or I might get hyper normalized. I might just like this is This is what I work in. This is like crazy. This is it, you know? But every now and then you're going to have to do something that demonstrates to me how chaotic and cruel you can actually be. Like you're going to have to engage in periodic acts of cruelty to remind me that the fear is real and to put me back in it. And so, one of the things you're seeing right now, I mean like we in in the US, the deportation and immigration issues. This is not a president that has, you know, tightened his belt on immigration more than other previous presidents. But we've never seen masked people grabbing people off the street while children hold on to their legs screaming, "Mom, mom, mom." We've We've never seen that before, right? But we've had other presidents probably exceed the deportation numbers that we're seeing. But we've never seen that level of cruelty in display. That is a real display of cruelty as a reminder of who who holds power and who does not. It also makes me think of relationships when you're talking about you know, how people are controlled with power over. A lot of people talk about like sort of narcissistic relationships or abusive relationships where they don't feel like they can leave or you know, they don't leave and they end up becoming acclimatized to the treatment. I'm a big systems theory I'm a systems theory person. I think in systems theory I was trained in systems theory. I think if you don't understand systems systems theory, at least if you're leading an organization right now, you're going to fall behind because the complexity inside and outside of organizations is such that we need a framework to understand how all these individual systems are bumping up against each other. Like you you probably bump up against a hundred systems a day, right? >> Yeah. And so, what I would imagine, the story I would make up about your success, cuz this is true of any systems theory, is in order for systems to thrive and grow, they have to keep permeable boundaries. Meaning they have to allow feedback to flow in and out from other systems. Mhm. >> [clears throat] >> To be aware. So, I'm just going to give you a very good example. I'm very excited about the female the experts you had on Mhm. around menopause, women's life. I mean, I'm so excited about that. Mhm. Like just to be honest with you, like Mary Claire is my doctor. Oh, really? Yeah, yeah, yeah. Dr. Haver. So, um what is interesting is the systems that just that podcast bumps up against. You know, and the systems that would be sending feedback that hey, this is not for me. I'm not clicking on this. I I've shared that first one with a hundred people. >> [laughter] >> You know, because there's a reality to our lives that is uncomfortable for people. But those are your partners and your moms and your, you know, and your bosses and it's real. And I can guarantee you this was happening with the dudes. Yeah. Like it'd be a gazillion dollar whatever is over a trillion, gazillion. I don't know. Um but just thinking about that one podcast and the systems that you're touching. Health, women's issues, um family systems are affected. Like that podcast hits 20 systems that I can think of in my head right now. >> Mhm. >> [clears throat] >> The divorce rates of people of women in their 50s and 60s. Mhm. I mean, right? Yes or no? >> Yeah, 100% yeah. Right. So, a healthy system has permeable boundaries, meaning feedback is flowing in and out all the time. What happens when the world gets complex is we start not wanting the feedback. The complexity is too big. So, we start shutting down those permeable boundaries. Well, what happens to a system where the boundaries are no longer permeable? It atrophies. And in the in the process of atrophying, the system becomes self-referencing. Are we good? We're great. Are we right? We're right. Are we on target? We're on target. Because the boundaries of the system is are no longer craving outside feedback even when it's tough. And in businesses today, the geopolitical realities, the market changes, AI, I mean, it's crazy. Mhm. And so, our predisposition to shut down uncertainty and complexity is the biggest threat to the systems in which we work and live. The self-protect, close the wall, put up the drawbridge, fill the moat with piranhas. We just don't have that luxury. We've got to keep the the boundaries permeable. We've got to keep learning, guessing, unlearning, relearning. One of the added complexities is the rise of algorithms. And And actually, when I think about algorithms that are powered by AI, they're going to be even better at knowing what you want to see so that you spend time so that you consume more adverts, which means probably the best thing to show me is either something really fearful or to to confirm what I already believe. >> 100%. An algorithm that was doing the opposite probably wouldn't be an enjoyable experience for the average human brain. It would cause too much dissonance, too much discomfort. >> But great for democracy. Great. Yeah, fantastic. But terrible for for running a business and selling ads. So, any company that takes that approach will go bankrupt. This is why TikTok I think have been so successful is the algorithm is I don't use TikTok. It's I have a TikTok account. I don't have the app on my phone. But um from what I hear is it's so unbelievably addictive. People describe it to me and they're like, "Oh my god, it's so addictive." But this [ __ ] is the devil. Yeah. Yeah. But it's people are driven by incentives, right? And you know, your your share price is going to tumble and you're going to be fired. You're going to lose your your status and your power if you don't do that. I'm playing devil's advocate. Obviously, I'm not saying >> No, I No, I agree. What do you think the solution is? And what responsibility do the bros who run these tech platforms have? It's complicated. Well, I agree. I'm not looking for an easy answer. Go ahead. Hit me. Well, and I just think it's complicated because what what an objective party would say, who's just looking at the incentives of these groups of people, is if they don't do it, then China will. So, even with AI now, you know what I mean? I'm like I've sat with all these experts and I keep hitting up against this wall, which is okay, if we just banned people in the United States from pursuing this super intelligence strategy, then Russia and China get there first, then the United States, unfortunately, are going to end up being China's French bulldog. And actually, I can't refute that. I go, "No, you're right." Cuz we would you'd have to literally lease the technology off them. It will be so powerful and give such an economic advantage that you will have to lease it off China. So, you're like, "Okay, I guess Sam Altman does need to crack on." Or else So, it's complicated. >> I mean, this is where I end up every time. I mean, look what happened with TikTok. China made an algorithm. It was unbelievably addictive. The United States have just had to buy it off them. Because they were scared that the data was going to be used against the United States. It's a prime example. Like China were like, "Fuck it, we don't care." Yeah, right. >> Yeah. And they made an unbelievable algorithm called TikTok, which just captivated, you know, the youth are all just like losing their brains. So, I don't know. I don't know. It's tough. It's rough. Spiritual crisis. Yeah, I mean, you just laid it out. You just laid it out. We're emotionally dysregulated. We're distrustful of each other. We don't trust ourselves very much and we're disconnected. I can't give up on people, though. I'm not built that way. Like I just believe that we are more good than greedy. You know, I I was in conversation with Trevor Noah at an event. And I mentioned this term that I I was really excited about And he challenged me on it. And I said, I think what we need is cognitive sovereignty. We need to wrestle control away from the algorithms and decide what we consume, what we read, how we think, think critically. We need to think about our attention and our focus as commodities that people are after. >> Because they're after them, right? >> Mhm. He had an interesting point though. He always has interesting points, don't you think? >> tough to to talk to Trevor because he's so he's always got an interesting point. >> He's always got an interesting point. Damn it. Um and he's funny. But he said, "No, we need less cognitive sovereignty, Brené." And I'm like, "What do you mean?" He goes, "Everything's about the for you page. Everything's for you. We need communal sovereignty." He's like, "You know, the whole problem is that your for you page is completely sovereign. You intellectually and spiritually" I'm I'm I'm paraphrasing what he said. I'm sure it was like funnier and better looking, but um but he he and then then I was trying to think about like I guess maybe that's not the right term. But let me let me tell you what scares me the most. I'm in I'm in some weird rooms because of the nature of my job. I'm in rooms where the people who run these platforms and own and you know, that own the CEOs of these business and the founders are in these rooms. And I hear them talking and I hear things that are so misaligned that it panics me. So I hear someone say, "Hey, you know, tech billionaire, what what should my kids study? I'm worried for my kids." Well, they should study coding, physics, you know, and then 5 minutes later as if that answer didn't happen, someone will say, "To what do you attribute your success? I mean, deeply when you think about it." And the same person will say, "My deep philosophy and the Stoics." And so then I'm thinking to myself, well, which is it, dude? And then I then I start to extrapolate from there and wonder if there is a thinking class that's emerging where they're like, "We're going to read philosophy and we're going to read the liberal arts and we're going to study history. And the rest of you, just keep scrolling. Don't worry about the big words. Well, we'll handle all the big words for you." Like it's like when they asked Steve Jobs, "Well, your kids must love the iPad." Steve Jobs said, "My kids don't have an iPad." And then his biographer who spent time with his family said, "He wasn't kidding. There's no technology. At dinner, they're talking about art and history." Mhm. The hardest chapter I've ever written in my life of any book was the chapter on grounded confidence in Strong Ground. What is the set of skill sets and mindsets that I think we're going to need to future ready and future proof ourselves to be leaders moving forward? And I think what was hard about it was the complexity of it was probably a combination of 30 different mindsets and skill sets. And when I was done, you know, for commercial reasons, someone on my team immediately said, "Jeez, this is like a if you can train people in these things, this is really this is like really important." And the first thing I thought was [ __ ] that, my kids. Train train schmain. I get it. It's important. Like we'll we'll we'll we'll develop some instrumentation, measure it. We'll train folks in it. I think it's trainable, it's teachable, it's measurable. But really, I want this for my kids. I want my kids to know systems thinking. I want my kids to know anticipatory thinking, situational awareness, temporal awareness. I want my kids to have this complex set of skills. Do I want them to have jobs one day where all they're worried about a shareholder value? Really, no. I want them to own their mind, own their intellect, own their attention, and own their focus. I want them to read. I want them to understand history. I want them to develop pattern recognition skills cuz these are the skills of the future. I want them to be able to hold the tension of nuance and paradox when everything in their brain is saying, "Pick one, pick one, reconcile. I'm uncomfortable. Pick one, reconcile. I'm uncomfortable." That's neurobiology. In those 20 in those 20 years of your 20 plus years of your career, what have you been exposed to from a 30,000 foot perspective? Like what what are the the wide range of reference points that you draw upon to be the person that you are today? And you know, cuz you've had you it feels like you've got a very wide range of references. Clearly, you know, you're you're someone that cares a lot about history. That comes through in your answers, but I'm wondering in your career like what are what are the experiences that you've had? Have you been working directly with patients? Is it aca- academic reference points you're drawing upon? Yeah, um no one's ever asked me this, which I've been grateful that no one's asked me. Um so what a pain in the ass, but um because no one's going to like the answer. I'm excited about the answer now. Everything. Like every single thing. Um yes, I you know, I love history. Yes, I read academic papers all the time. Yes, I wake up in the morning and I read because of the nature of my work, I read The Wall Street Journal, The New York Times, Bloomberg, The Financial Times. Like I yeah, I mean I I I read and a lot, but there's a chapter in the book that was one of my favorite to write on the transitions home from work. Mhm. And how how how tough they are. And how if you're like me, you've had a very frustrated partner look at you more than once in your life and say, "Hey, I know it was stressful. I don't work for you. Change gears." Yeah. Have you ever had that? >> No comment. No comment. >> [laughter] >> Yeah. I use a metaphor in that book in this chapter of a lock. And how did that come to me? Because I was reading the book series The Rivers of London. And in that book series, there are two gods of the Thames. And the Teddington Lock is where out right outside of London in Teddington is where custody changes for them. So I went to the Teddington Lock cuz I was interested. I met the lockmaster that runs the lock. She gave me a 3-hour lesson that day. We let narrowboats through the Thames. I learned how lock works and that's the metaphor that I use to talk about the research on what do we do when we spend all day locking in, hyperfocused, compartmentalizing, getting [ __ ] done. And then instead of going home to our partner, when we get home, we spend 30 minutes in the garage on TikTok cuz we can't bear to go in. So why do we do that? Because we need a lock through period. We need time to go into a chamber metaphorically, change levels, let go of where we were, lower ourselves to the rhythm of what we're doing now. Cognitively we'd call it cognitive and domain shifting. And we need time. So I looked at the lockmaster at uh Teddington and said, "This should just take you a long time. Can we get this chamber filled up a little bit quicker?" And she said, "Locking through takes what locking through takes. If you rush it, you risk capsizing." We get home and then we walk in the back door and it's like, "I can't find my shin guards. I think I left them on the pitch. Where are my goggles, Mom? Oh my god, you didn't sign the permission slip. I had to sneak into the zoo." You know, and you're like, "Take me back to work where I'm the boss of everything." You [laughter] know. So where do I learn those things? Well, cognitive and domain shifting come out of psychology. Gemma, the lockmaster at Teddington, there's wisdom everywhere. I put it together as your stories and metaphors. I mean, another thing in the book. I mean, I'm standing on the sideline at DKR, the University of Texas Longhorn football stadium. Um and I'm standing with Emmanuel Acho. Do you know Emmanuel? No. Yeah, he's great. He played for the Longhorns. He played for the NFL. Now he's a writer. So I'm standing there and we're watching the game and I look at him and I go, "How would you define pocket presence?" And pocket presence is an American football term. So do you know American football? Okay. So I'm a quarterback. I'm going to get the ball and I have to throw the ball or run the ball or hand off the ball to get the ball down the pitch, down the field, right? >> Mhm. >> [clears throat] >> And when when the ball is snapped and the ball is put into motion, there's about 1,200 lb of really angry people trying to drive me into the ground. The people that are protecting me from those defensive guys are called my offensive line. Mhm. And the way they [clears throat] do it is they form a pocket around the quarterback. And the quarterback uses that time to decide where am I going to throw the ball? Am I going to run the ball? And pocket presence is the ability of a quarterback to use the on average 2.8 to 3 seconds he has to read the field, understand where the defenders are, and make a decision. And so when I asked Emmanuel Acho, "How would you define pocket presence?" He said, and I want you to think about this in terms of your business. The ability to read the field without seeing all of it. And trusting your team well enough to make a move even though you can't see everything. Mhm. What are the skill sets you need right there? One, temporal awareness. You got to know how much time you have to get rid of that ball and get it down the field. They they say Tom Brady, who played for the Patriots, is any of this ringing a bell? >> Yeah, I know who you mean. Great. Tom Brady. They said his pocket presence was so good, he could tell where his offensive linemen were by the vibrations through his his cleats on the field. So, temporal awareness, situational awareness, what's going on, anticipatory awareness. Think about a great football player. Right? Think about Masala. You don't kick the ball to where the striker is. You kick the ball to where the striker's going to be. Mhm. So, anticipatory and situational awareness, right? >> Mhm. Pattern recognition. Have I been in this situation before? Do I know how to, you know, where is the goalie in the cage? Where are they standing right now? Like and so I'll take my inspiration from sports all the time, which is why there's so many sports metaphors. Right? Mhm. >> [clears throat] >> I think there's not a better sports a better metaphor to describe work right now than American League Football. One of the things that um perhaps is is throughout your work is this idea of connection. I did a mushroom I did magic mushrooms with my girlfriend a couple of years ago, the first time I've ever done it. And um the message that came through for me was it was about connection. And that word has had a fond place in my heart ever since. It's been really, really important. And we live in a society that's more lonely than ever before, more disconnected in many ways, as you described when you're referencing the spiritual crisis that we're living in. This word connection, what does that mean? Does it mean on an individual basis? Does it mean me having friends and relationships? Is that connection? Is that the type of connection I should be looking for? Or does it need Do I need to like Do you think people need to ladder up further to their city, their town, their world, to the community, to something bigger? God. What What does connection mean in this context? >> Yes. I think the answer to that question is yes. We're neuro- neurobiologically hardwired to be in connection with other people. And in the absence of connection, there's always suffering. Always suffering in the absence of connection. So, I think I mean, just how we're built, mirror neurons, you know, our ability to sync up neurobiologically when we feel connected and are hearing each other. So, to me, connection is the ability to be in a relationship where we can both give and receive, where we feel seen, heard, believed, valued. That is that human connection is really important on a micro level, one-on-one with other human beings. I think a sense of belonging and a sense of place, and I don't know that that necessarily needs to be a location, but a sense of being a part of something bigger than you, I think is also important. So, love and belonging, connection, irreducible needs. I I think spirituality I define spirituality is being inextricably connected to other people by something bigger than us. Maybe that's love, maybe that's God, maybe that's fishing. Like I I you know, it's different for other people. For me, I'm faith is one of my values and I'm a a pretty serious God person. Um I'm a pretty deep person of faith. I guess I would ask somebody, "What is that thing that transcends difference? Political difference, ideological difference, race, gender, you know, belief systems, class, what is it that brings you to a common humanity place?" Like for me, it's God. That's it's a big challenge. Cuz like I I try to work from an ethos where I try to find God in the face of everybody that I meet, even if I want to punch you in the throat. I try to like Like like that's my thing. In some way, I'm connected to you. Mhm. Whether I like it or not and whether I like you or not. And when you talk about belonging, it's interesting in your book Braving the Wilderness, which I think the question's kind of summed up by the subtitle here. The quest for true belonging and the courage to stand alone. This appears to be a dichotomy or a contradiction. Mhm. To belong, but also to stand alone. >> Mhm. Why are both of these important? Why is it important to belong? What does that mean? And And why is it also important to stand alone? Cuz I don't think you can truly belong to anything or any or or any group if you don't belong to yourself first. True belonging requires us to be who we are, not to change who we are. That's fitting in. Fitting in is the greatest threat to belonging. Mhm. Which takes us both back to our childhoods, right? >> Mhm. Yeah. Fit in. Fit in. Fit in. Fit in. The problem is that that chameleon kind of skill set means that in order to fit in, the first person you betray is yourself. We've got to be able to stand alone. And that's what's happening right now in the world. I mean, if I if I look back at Braving the Wilderness, that was maybe the only prophetic book that I think I've ever written. Like that Like Like that I don't think I'm profit like, but man, did I call what was happening in terms of the big sort into ideological bunkers, where we are going to get to a place where I don't even know you, but I'm going to call you friend because we hate the same people. And you over there, I actually do love you. You're a family member of mine. But I'm not, you know, because we don't believe in the same things, you have no meaning in my life. Like it's like we have gotten to the place where ideological bunkers, and those are so dangerous cuz here you and I like let's say let's say that we have the same belief around immigration. Um so we're going to flip this table over and we're going to get behind it in our ideological bunker and we're going to be like, "Yeah, we're right and these guys are [ __ ] crazy and [ __ ] y'all." You know, and then one day I'm going to turn to you and say, "You know, one thing I'm wondering about is how are we going to solve the problem >> [clears throat] >> with the folks coming over in the dinghies from France? Cuz I don't think we're going to be able to go without solving it because we do have an employment issue and a housing crisis." And then you go, "You're out." My My care for you, my connection with you, completely dependent on you not questioning anything we agreed to back here. Well, that's counterfeit connection. What's real connection? Like I got to know what's going on in your mind cuz your face is like We got to play poker. We got to put that on our agenda. >> [laughter] >> What are you thinking? I was just thinking about being a podcaster and I sit here with all types of people. So, I had Kamala Harris sat here >> Mhm. uh 3 or 4 days ago and I'll have someone on the right sat here. You know, and then I'll have maybe Michelle Obama, then I'll have Jordan Peterson, then I'll have the opposite of whatever Jordan Peterson is. And I was just thinking about how um how that's also kind of made me feel like I don't belong because that is quite rare. There's probably not a podcaster on Earth that has had both Michelle Obama and Jordan Peterson. No. Yeah. And then Kamala Harris after that. Like I didn't manage to scare Michelle off. I didn't scare Jordan off. And so you get you kind of get attacked from both sides. Oh, I mean, look, if you're not if you're not getting threatening [ __ ] from the far here, the far left or the far right, if you're not getting both, you're not doing your job. >> Amen. Yeah. >> Period. But it's tough. Oh God, it is heartbreaking. >> Yeah. It will break your heart and it will remind you of why standing alone is on the front of that book. Mhm. Because what it will do it is it is Winnow the right word? It will narrow your belonging, your true belonging, down to a very few people. >> I mean, I completely understand how it happens that a podcaster like me will end up picking a side because there is safety in numbers. Well, cuz there's an ideological bunker cuz we flipped the table over. 100% At any point, you know, when the left attacks you, I'm like, "Wow, the right looks pretty." When the right attacks you, you go, "Oh, the left looks pretty." Because standing in the in no man's land is is not the place you want to be. I know I'm never going to succeed in this. Like I know I'm never going to succeed in converting people converting people to be nuanced and to not get viscerally angry when I have someone on the show who's on the right or viscerally angry when I have someone on the show who's on the left. I'm already aware that when the Kamala episode comes out, it's just going to be a bunch of people that didn't listen and within the first 3 minutes, the comment section's just going to be [ __ ] you. >> Yeah. And I'm like part of me is trying to win that war with my audience, where they too will just listen. And I know that you don't agree with the person, but can you just listen? Cuz that's what I do, and it's not some act I'm putting on. It's not like I walk out there and I start but I I'm right-wing in my kitchen or left-wing in my kitchen. Genuinely, the brain where my brain works is oh, I see this this good in this individual. And then I meet someone else who's on the other side and I say oh, there's a couple of points of good that I agree upon I agree with them on this. That's how I am, and it feels so weird. Because when you go on the internet, you don't find yourself being compelled by either side entirely. No. No, and I think it's really confusing, and the only limit I have really is I am not probably going to have a conversation with you. If your beliefs question my humanity. Okay. That that's going to be my line. That that's going to be that's going to be the line for me is going to be if you're cruel or name-calling Yeah. or if your core beliefs about who I am Mhm. >> [clears throat] >> or who other people are are dehumanizing. I I I can't I can't that I can't do because now I've betrayed myself in order to make a political point about nuance. Yeah. Because that because you know dehumanization is a really interesting and hard thing. When you study when you look at the research of people who study dehumanization and you we talked about earlier with the with immigrant populations. There is a circle of moral inclusion. We are not built we are not hardwired to hurt each other, to kill each other assault, rape, beat. It's not we're not wired for it actually. So, in order to do that you you've got a person here inside your moral inclusion. In order to be okay with that, you've got to push them outside of moral inclusion to be morally excluded from somebody you see as human and worthy of moral inclusion. And the first step to moral exclusion moving people out of a safety zone where you don't do horrible things to them the first way to move people out is language. throughout history as long as people have lived. So you hear people in this administration calling a a community of immigrants an infestation. The same way we would talk about animals or rats. You know, and so my only limit to hard conversation is if you're operating from an ideology where women are dogs immigrants are illegals. You know, if you're operating from that place of moral exclusion you are too dangerous for me. But other than that, I'd probably be willing to have a conversation with anyone. But I can understand why people pick sides. I tell you what, it is lonely. Yeah, that makes sense. Yeah. It's nice to hear that. It's really nice to hear that that that is um Yeah. We've talked about it quite a lot, me and Jack um who's been producing the show since the very beginning. Uh we've we've talked a lot about how we understand the temptation to pick a side. And actually, one of the greatest compliments a journalist has ever given me is they wrote in the article, and this wasn't a journalist that liked me, they just said um we're unable to ascertain which political party he is part of. I thought that was a great compliment because I mean >> it means that That's that's a journal that's a journalistic ethos. I think they would want to pin me down and say he's [ __ ] they'd love to say I'm right-wing or Yeah. something else. But they said um in a not very nice piece they'd written about me whatever, they said that he we're unable to figure out what side he's part of. And I think that's a compliment because it's it's true and it I think it allows me to do my job better that I don't have too many preconceptions when I meet people. I try to meet people for the first time. Which I enjoy. I think you're pretty good at that cuz you are insatiably curious. Mhm. It's it's lovely and terrible. Why terrible? It's terrible for an avoidant. I found this out recently. I've known it my whole life, but I found it out recently cuz I had a conversation with someone. If someone's I think if someone's uncomfortable with vulnerability, then I'm like their [ __ ] worst nightmare. >> YOU ARE. >> [laughter] >> WHICH IS INTERESTING CUZ I DON'T EXPECT YOU as super vulnerable. Really? Uh Maybe not. >> Carefully optimistic vulnerable. Yeah, that's probably Like like you're you're cognitively a believer Yeah. >> and trying to move the rest of you to it. You've got the journalistic ethos of equal opportunity insatiable curious guy, right? >> Mhm. What do you think the responsibility is of someone who has a platform? Mhm. to vet or understand the credibility especially when it comes to science or those kind of things of what their guest is saying. I think that we the school of podcasters haven't really we don't have the um the ex the training that journalists do. So, we're almost catching up in that regard, especially if you become a big podcaster because you're kind of held you're held at a in a different level. So, more recently, one of the things we do is we we've hired a I mean this recently was a year and a half ago. We hired a PhD who does exactly that, who after this comes out will go through everything that you said and then put on the screen things that were not within scientific consensus. But that in itself is a decision. Yeah. Yeah. It is a decision. It's not a choice without consequence either. No, some people don't like it. What led you to that choice? When your podcast reaches lots of people you're forced It's kind of going goes what I said earlier about the political stuff. You're forced to really get clear on what you believe and like what matters to you. And one of the things that matters to me is that the stuff we put into the world, we feel like it's helping people even if it's not nice. And it kind of goes to something that I read in your work, which is like our objective isn't to be nice, it's to be kind. Oh, yeah. And so, for example, my convers- the conversations we have about AI, like I'm well aware that that's not going to necessarily make you feel great. But I think the avoidance of discomfort in in through history Oh god. hasn't led to great places. So, like if you think there's a bus coming, I can you know, it's I can pretend there isn't, but if I think that there might be a bus coming and if if experts in are telling me there's a bus coming, I think we should have a conversation about the bus coming. And actually, me having that conversation, I get messages all the time which is like please stop talking about this subject. It doesn't make me feel good. I'm very anchored to like what my my my job is here, and I think it's we can push people further towards uh we can we can create progress through honest conversations. So, when the podcast got bigger and you get more and more you get attacked more for any any of your guests that you have on, you have to get clear on what matters to you and what your job is. And so, one of the things I thought is actually when we have these conversations, I want them to be as accurate as they possibly can be. For the listener who might be confused cuz it's a confusing world in this new world of democratized media. So we do that. >> I really respect that. I just want to say um I don't think that that choice is the easy choice. What is the easy choice do you think? The easy choice is I'm going to let you say whatever you want and I'll let my listeners sort out if it's real or not. Mhm. >> [clears throat] >> And I'll take no responsibility for the credibility or the facts that are being presented. Mhm. Um what I think is interesting about what you're doing is it just seems like a very solid approach where I'm a big believer in science. You know, I'm married to a physician. I'm a social scientist. Like I'm I'm I'm not going to be the golden child of this administration when it comes to science for sure. Like I have a I love science Mhm. shirt that I wear with a DNA scarf. So, like I'm I'm like I'm very real about that. I also don't think that everything that we see that is projected as peer-reviewed clinical trial, you know, I think challenges to that system are also important. I think science cannot be a self-referencing system anymore than any other system can be. So, to have people that have different opinions or new opinions Mhm. on but to let your listeners or your viewers know that this is not an opinion where there's a lot of a data collected or that this is a controversial opinion is respecting people's cognitive self-determination. I I just think it's a it's it's an interesting way to do it. I just I I think I launched the podcast and it became very big during COVID. I got you. Yeah. And so Houston is home to the biggest medical center in the world. Like in the world. And I live in the medical center area. In the beginning there were just, you know, it just there never stopped being funerals for physicians and people working on COVID. And so to hear on podcast that it doesn't exist. Yeah. Or that you can use, you know, Windex or you know, like some [ __ ] like that. I I just started to and then I got into a little dust-up around it in my own situation. And so I'm always interested as we enter this world in platform and podcast responsibility. It is a it's a slippery slope and it's um >> Berry. And there's no there's no perfect outcome. Like you don't want to go too far either way, right? You don't want to like have the government get involved and tell you what truth is or >> Right. But you also don't want to stray into um conspiracy land and um Right. >> away from science because you know. There are things that are knowable. Yeah, there are things that are knowable. But >> Yeah. But I don't know. I I I just think it's an interesting question for this time and I think it's an interesting question when you have a platform that's powerful. And I think if you're doing the best you can to make decisions based What What is the question >> [clears throat] >> that drives your decision-making? For me? No, like just in general. Yeah, I got yours. You want you want to you want to help your listeners and you want to do good. Yeah. Um that's a different thing than downloads. You can do both. You can do both. But if your only filter Well, oh you you'd go for [ __ ] total conspiracy. Yeah. >> Right. Right. Right. Right. Right. So I just think it's I just think it's an interesting question. I don't have an answer. I just know that it's an important question. Yeah, and you know what? I'll be honest so as um I mean we're not journalists we're not journalists here. So we don't really understand the rigor and I've got a lot of respect for journalists and the the effort they've put in to understand the journalistic method and all those things. I feel like we're somewhat catching up. We didn't this podcast went from zero to 70 million people a month in 4 and 1/2 years or something. Hard. So and we're just [ __ ] holding on. Like me and Jack didn't run a podcast before. So I didn't run one before and so we're now catching up and part of the part of the way that we're shaped is with feedback and you get lots of feedback. Don't have this person. I'll never speak to this person again. Don't know. And you kind of get back that stuff off but if there's any ever anything that actually feedback that actually isn't contra- contradiction that does test your own mission or your own values, then you listen and you will you know you can start to innovate and one of the things that we thought was smart was to have the pop-ups on screen which everybody is probably familiar with by now. And it's a balancing act. We don't want to completely discredit everything that a guest has to say but we also just want to give context. And that's kind of context what they're saying. If something's ridiculous we'll just remove it. Like if something's absolutely we will not publish the episode is probably a better way of saying it. We had a couple of episodes where people said some guest said some things which were just absolutely [ __ ] crazy. You don't need a PhD to know that you can't exercise by lying on the ground. Like I think this one guest had said to me that you can build your muscles just by laying on your back or whatever and not doing anything. We just didn't publish the episode. >> I can just say as a PhD that I have attempted that. Yeah, it doesn't work. And it was FOR JACK [ __ ] >> [laughter] >> I THINK JACK MADE A GOOD POINT. I GIVE YOU A PHD on the just laying still. Yeah. No, I think that I respect the approach. And it's >> one of the reasons I decided to come on. Cuz I respect the approach. We're not perfect but we're trying. And it's tough, you know. >> That's the thing that you're walking a path. The world of business looks entirely different today than it did 15 years ago. Back then building a brand meant having huge budgets, warehouses, office space and lots of lots of staff. But now you can start a business with your laptop, an idea and the right tools and I would know more so than anybody else because that's exactly what I did. Shopify is one of our long-standing sponsors on the show and they're a brand I often refer people to when they're starting their businesses because it's a tool that contains many more tools within itself. And when you're starting out everything is everywhere. It's messy and it's confusing so having everything in the same place is incredibly useful. Shopify puts store design, payments, inventory, shipping and even AI tools all in one place and you can sell directly from your website or on social media, essentially wherever your customers spend their time. It's truly a brilliant business tool. So if you want to give it a go, head to shopify.com/bartlett and sign up for your $1 per month trial period. That's shopify.com/bartlett. On that point about me and vulnerability is vulnerability important? Cuz there's a lot of performative vulnerability taking place in the Is is it an important thing for my health, happiness my future to be a vulnerable person? Well, let's define it. Um vulnerability is the emotion we experience when we have when we are up against uncertainty risk and emotional exposure. So vulnerability is what I feel. It's the cringe. The awkward, the thing that I the emotion I feel in times of uncertainty, risk or emotional exposure. So it was really interesting because I had a hard time helping people understand because there's we are so raised to believe that vulnerability is weakness that it took a trip to Fort Bragg working with special forces to ask soldiers a question. Give me a single example of courage in your life. One example that you've witnessed or you you yourself have done. One example of courage that did not require uncertainty, risk or emotional exposure. No one could answer it. Finally a young soldier stood up and said three tours. There is no courage without vulnerability. So is vulnerability important? It is if we want to be brave with our lives. If we if we want to be able to manage ourselves in a way that's values-aligned and courageous, we have to be able to reconcile how we feel when we're uncertain, at risk or exposed. I mean and really weirdly the next week after the trip to Fort Bragg, I was with the Seattle Seahawks, the football team, NFL team. Asked the players give me an example of courage on the field or off that did not require vulnerability. They said that it's not possible. There is no courage. Like if you're doing things in your life in your work and there's no risk, no uncertainty and no exposure, then they're not brave. If you know how it's going to end that is not courage. Courage is the willingness to show up and be all in when you cannot predict the outcome. Courage is saying I love you first. >> [snorts] >> That's you you want to know what vulnerability is? I love you first. Have you ever said I love you first? Uh I'm not sure. Yeah. It's been a while. >> But it's hard. It's you know. >> So I need to give context. It's been a while since I've been in that situation. Well, you had to go first. Yeah, we're not going to go first here. Yeah. I mean there's this great story that I tell about I I gave a talk here. It was actually in LA and afterwards a kid came up to me. He's probably 22 or 23 and he said, "Can I tell you a story about your work and how it's really changed my life?" And I was like, "Sure." And a kind of crowd grew around and this is like the last time I ever got penned like not being able to exit a stage because it was such a traumatic It wasn't traumatic but it was like he said, "Well, I was dating this woman and I was so crazy about her. So I took her to eat to our favorite restaurant and I waited until the dessert came because we love this chocolate volcano and I ordered it and I said, "I love you." And she looked at me and she said, "I think you're awesome. And I think we should date other people." And then she Ubered home. And so I was like, "God damn, this is the worst story I've ever >> [laughter] >> This is not a good story." And he said, "So I got in my car and I drove home and the whole way home I just kept saying to myself over and over, [ __ ] Brené Brown. [ __ ] Brené Brown." I'm like, "When does this When When's the turn on the story, you know?" And he said, "I got home and I walked into my apartment and I pushed the door open and both my roommates were wired in and they were on their computers and they looked up and said, 'Dude, what's going on?'" And he said, "I told her I loved her and she told me I was awesome." And one of my roommates looked at me and said, "What the [ __ ] were you thinking? That's not how it works. When you are going toward them, they go away. So you're always kind of going away so they come toward you." And he goes, "Oh. Oh, no. No. I don't want to I don't want to be that dude. I was daring greatly." And he said both of his roommates just got teary-eyed and went, "Right on, man. Right on." Like there is no courage without vulnerability. How can you say you're brave if you're not putting yourself out there? So many people have been through things which have made it very, very difficult for them to be vulnerable. I was speaking to someone yesterday who was cheated on bunch of attachment issues in their early childhood. And funnily enough, when I was talking to her about I was asking her questions about cuz I'm very deep personal I just carries over into my personal life. I was asking her questions about the things you know she'd been through and whatever else. She just shuts down. And she told me that she she um >> [clears throat] >> What were the exact words? She said that she finds vulnerability to be a form of intimacy that she tries to stay away from because she needs to really really really trust the person before she opens up. And I think this is a trend you see across a lot of people they they won't open up enough to form a connection because they've been hurt before by opening up. And it feels too scary to do that. And that results in them being single, alone, unhappy, so on and so on. Yeah, I mean I think there's there what you said was so loaded with so many things. So first of all, there's there there there's this very interesting relationship between vulnerability and trust. And how does that work? And people always ask me what comes first, trust or vulnerability? Do I trust you first then I'm vulnerable or am I vulnerable first and then I trust you? And I think it's a very slow stacking. We get to know each other. I share a little bit. I don't I don't share Hey, nice to meet you Steven. Here's my darkest horrible most painful trauma, you know, cuz that that is actually that kind of litmus testing is actually a form of armor. I'm going to throw something at you that our relationship in no way has been built long enough to hold. You're going to go away and I'm going to use that as verification that vulnerability is dangerous. Like That's litmus testing. Mhm. Let me prove to you that you're not trustworthy. Na na na na na na na Oh, I see you're backing away. That's what I thought. I'm backing away because we haven't built a relationship that can bear the weight of this story. Can we start Can we start small? Okay. Vulnerability, trust, vulnerability, trust, vulnerability, trust. Mhm. >> [clears throat] >> I think I get in that in my work we call that like the smash and grab. Like I'm going to I'm going to hit you with something really big and then watch you go away and use it as evidence. Mhm. Yeah. And it takes a really skilled person to say yeah, I'm really I'm taking in what you told me. I want to be respectful and honor that. And I don't have a way to file it right now cuz I don't know you well enough. So I appreciate the share I mean we also call it spotlighting. So like if I had a military grade spotlight that they use in the wilderness. I work with the military a lot. And I I picked it up and put it in your face right here. What would you do physically? Uh That's what that's our reaction to too much vulnerability too fast. Yeah. Like yeah, I don't know I don't know you. Yeah. Um So you're talking about the slow stacking of courage and of vulnerability and trust. And then you're also talking about that when >> [clears throat] >> when we've had a lot of hard things happen to us, I think this is where I really believe in the democratization of coaching and therapy that a lot of times we have to work with people. Like we have to get help to be able to open up and take off some of the armor that we put on because sometimes that armor that we put on is freaking survival. I mean and you want to start adding you want to start adding variables like race, gender, like you know, any anything where there's social systems also at play. That's survival. Like telling me right now at my career like hey, you should be vulnerable with your new team. And and talk about your previous failures, you know. Well, of course I could do that and I would do it and everybody would clap and they'd think man, she's so brave. And take the new person who's a young black woman or the new first LGBTQ person on a team and say hey, tell tell every Don't tell anybody [ __ ] Develop trust first. Develop uh see how how trust your own instincts about the accountability of this group to hold themselves accountable for their behavior. Like vulnerability is not more necessary for any of us than anybody else, but certainly more difficult for other for for some people for sure. And I think what's hard about that, what's so painful, probably the most painful part of my career is that regardless of why the armor is on, without vulnerability you cannot access the experiences that are the most meaningful in life. Love. To love someone is to be vulnerable from the time you wake up to the time you go to bed. You know that, you're in a relationship. To love is to be vulnerable, right? >> Mhm. >> [clears throat] >> And have you ever buried someone you loved? Like I lost my mom 2 years ago. Like my kids it's like having your heart live outside of your body. Like to love is to be vulnerable cuz it's to risk grief and losing. Belonging is vulnerable. The most The most vulnerable human emotion? Joy. Joy is so vulnerable that when some of us get close to it, we dress rehearse tragedy to prepare for disappointment. Like it's so vulnerable that we don't even let ourselves feel joy because we're so afraid someone's going to rip it away and we're going to get sucker punched by disappointment. Yes or no? Like people choose to live disappointed rather than to feel disappoint risk feeling disappointed and get excited about something. You know, it's like the first time my kids shared with me when they were young, certainly not the way I was raised, but you know, I I really really want to make this team, Mom. And I said I want to pause you for a second and tell you how brave it is to talk openly about something you want so much when you don't have control over whether you get it or not. I want I want it for you because you want it, but regardless of what happens, I admire your courage for wanting something and sharing out loud that you want it. Because if you don't get it, I'll know that it was a crushing blow. But that's so great because I'll be here for you when that happens either way. So we And I And I'm really I'm a really I'm I we call it foreboding joy. That joy is so good we're just waiting for the other shoe to drop. And people who have trauma histories are really like that. Like for me cuz of the way I was raised, when something good happens, I'm like oh god, now what's going to happen? Statistically, bad shit's going to roll around any second now. And it's interesting cuz the group of people that we researched, the only group of people that could take that You know, there's a bodily quiver, right? Of vulnerability. Do you have you felt it? >> Yeah. Yeah. The only people that can really lean into joy consistently are people who use that vulnerability quiver as a reminder to be grateful. To be able to practice gratitude in that second. So gratitude is a huge enabler of joy. Is that automatic or can one train that? >> No, it's a training. Oh [ __ ] no I had to I mean standing at my front door watching my 16-year-old daughter walk down the sidewalk with her boyfriend in high school and get in his truck for for prom, right? And I'm standing there and I'm like oh god. And you know, what am I worried about? You know, prom night. Like car wreck, right? Of course like I when I tell the story the military's always like pregnancy. I'm like no no no no no, car wreck. And so I just remember staying there and she gets in and and I'm staying next to Steve and Charlie my my son's, you know, at this time he's 10. And I'm like I'm so grateful. I'm so grateful. I'm grateful for this moment. I'm grateful that I'm a part of it. I'm grateful that they did the corsage and the boutonniere over here. I'm grateful that I got to help pick out the dress. I'm so grateful. And Charlie goes looks at Steve, what's wrong with Mom? Um and Steve goes, she's she's practicing gratitude. Let her do it otherwise she's going to be on a crazy train. It's going to be all hell and you know, like cuz part of me wants to say oh god. Oh god. Like so beautiful and so joyful. And get in your truck and follow them right now. If he's speeding, I want to know about it. If he's not stopping fully to stop sign, follow them until this date is over. You know, that's that's what I want to do. Cuz I'm afraid. Cuz that that joy of that moment was just too much for me. Too vulnerable. It appears you've overcome various traits of old Rene Brown. No, I'm overcoming. Overcoming? No, I'm not over I I not overcome. Have you overcome anything? Yes, a belief that I will overcome anything. I've overcome the belief that I have overcome the belief that I will ever arrive. I am grateful for the skills that I have that are new skills that keep me more aligned with the person, the mom, the partner, the leader that I want to be. But I I am mindful of all the I try to stay very mindful that I am scary when I'm scared. That I catastrophize very very easily and that's painful for everybody around me. And I don't need to be liked. I just need to be myself. Like But those are things cuz I will I will sit down like 2 days ago and like, "Oh my god, it'd be so freaking easy to be liked here." I was like, "This will be This would be a piece of cake." And I'm like, "Shit, I don't do that anymore. Bummer." 2 days ago? Yeah. Out of what? Just with a group of people that I knew what it would take to be liked. And you made the choice to >> Just to be myself. >> Yeah. Why? Because now the person I'm going to betray last is me. Yeah, I hope I see you again, but not that important. Some people might find that somewhat demoralizing to know that they they too might never cure parts of themselves that they're desperate to change. I think people, you know, they often come to podcasts like this or read books like yours looking for solutions fixes to not liking myself, to the way that I react to my emotions. They want to fix it. Cuz if they can fix it, then they can be happy. I don't think that's in the consideration set. For a very beautiful reason. >> [clears throat] >> That if we could fix it and never have to wrestle with it again we would be so short on grace for other people. That we would be tyrants. So, you think it it creates a form of empathy for others? Yeah. I mean, like I'm not going to I have like really serious boundaries. I'm a very boundary person. But when I see someone behaving a certain way, I was like, "Uh, my [ __ ] sees your inner [ __ ] right here. I get I get it I get what you're doing. I'm not going to tolerate it. I'm going to set a boundary around it. But I'm not really judging you for it. It's just that behavior's not okay right here." But you like yourself now? Yeah. I do. I I Yeah, I do. I do. I can I can I can I think I can say that pretty I like what I'm becoming. And for anyone that doesn't like themselves, what what work has had to go into getting to the point where you like what you you're becoming? I think the hardest is maybe one of the biggest findings of my research over the last 25 years is it's not fear that gets in the way of us being brave with our lives and our work. It's armor. Everybody's afraid. It's okay to be afraid. What's dangerous is the armor that we reach for to self-protect when we're afraid. And how that armor moves us away from love, connection and our values. And so, I think the hardest work is for me constantly being aware of what is my armor. What am I What am I grabbing for when I'm afraid? What am I grabbing for when I want to protect my sense of self-worth, my ego? Like and and how heavy that [ __ ] is. You know, at some point I had to wear it. Because that was survival for me growing up. But this is the big This is the big developmental milestone of middle age, which you are squarely in train. Which is kind of when the universe grabs you by the shoulders and pulls you really close and says "I'm not [ __ ] around anymore. I gave you gifts. Choosing not to grow into them is not benign. There's a consequence for that. And your armor is getting in the way. You're grown-ass person now. You have different choices. Let go of what doesn't serve." And that is the big milestone, I think, that we have to wrestle with in midlife. What no longer serves that's preventing us from growing into who we want to be. And is that where vulnerability comes into the picture? Oh, for sure. Cuz all the armor all the armor is about vulnerability. It requires a huge amount of um I was going to say self-awareness. Yes. >> That some people just don't could probably never accomplish. I mean That's why I think metaphor is helpful. I mean most of us can understand if you back me into an emotional corner what are you going to get? Like as a leader, I know my armor, perfectionism, micromanagement. I get super intensive. I get recklessly decisive. I know my armor. And my team knows my armor. I think my armor in my personal life, especially when it comes to my kids, when I get when I feel vulnerable is control, control, control. Take over all the chess pieces. But that's not a good idea. It's not possible. Hm. It's just It's just pretend. That's called anxiety. Like pretending that you can control the chessboard of other people's lives, let alone your own, much less other people's lives. But I think I do it out of fear. Is fear the opposite of courage? Or is it? No, I think the opposite of courage is armor. Armor, okay. I think the opposite of courage is self-protection. To be courageous in this context, whether it's as a leader or in another environment, you talk about these four steps to courage. You talk about it in Strong Ground. Yeah. This was research that emerged like 15 years ago, and I was really really nervous cuz I'm a grounded theory researcher. I'm a qualitative researcher. So, a grounded theory is only as good as its ability to work new data. So, you develop a hypothesis or a theory based on data. And then as you collect more data, does the hypothesis hold? And, you know, this we collected that data pre-pandemic. You know, pre pre a lot of things. And so, I was really worried about the four skill sets of courage, which are identifying and understanding your core values. I would love to do this exercise with you sometime. Um two, understanding what gets in the way of you wrestling with vulnerability, kind of owning it and moving through it constructively. Three, how to build trust and how to become super important trustworthy to yourself. Self-trust. Because one of the first casualties of failure or disappointment or setback is we lose our our ability to trust ourselves. Our ability to make good decisions. Our ability to take care of ourselves. And the last one, which is my favorite because [snorts] it can really I've seen it really change an organization is how to get back up after failure and disappointment. How to reset. How to be how to manage your own bounce when hard [ __ ] happens. So, those are the four skill sets of courage. Again, evidence-based observable, measurable, and teachable. We've taken 165,000 people through this work across 45 countries. Collected data on all of it. It's so exciting. And it withstood all of the complex changes over the last 5 years, including AI. Organizational because this is where we do our work. I don't I'm not a therapist or clinician. I don't work with like families or individuals. I mean, I have a therapist, but I'm not one. Um so, I think you can develop skirt courage skills. The the third point is braving trust. Yeah. And I've heard about your marble jar theory. So, I've got a jar of marbles. >> that. Um could you explain to me what your marble jar You look at how excited you are. I know. Um so, this comes You know, where where is where where do I get my information? Ellen's in fourth grade, my oldest. She comes home from school. Mhm. The front [clears throat] door closes. She slides down the door into a heap sobbing. I'm like, "God, Ellen, are you okay? Are you hurt? What's going on?" She says that something hard happened. She shared it like very confidentially with one or two of her friends during recess. When she got back to the classroom they had told everybody in her class, all 30 kids. Everybody was laughing and pointing and making fun of her. And she said, "I will never trust anyone again." And my response immediately to my in my mind was, "Damn straight. Not [ __ ] person. You trust your mama, and that's it." Like that was my response. But again, that's not the right thing to do, right? You want a kid who can develop trust with others. So, I said, "Trust is really hard." She said, "I don't understand it." And her teacher at the time, Mrs. Bockum, had a mar- a marble jar. And when the team when the when the class would collectively make good decisions, she would put marbles in this empty jar. And when it got full, they'd have an extra recess and party. Mhm. And [clears throat] so, immediately what came to me, cuz I'm describing trust, which is a hard concept to a fourth grader. I said, "Trust is the marble jar." She's like, "What do you mean?" And I said, "Every time you share somebody something with someone that's confidential and they don't share it, they get a marble. Every time you build trust, when you want to share something really private and personal, you look for a friend whose jar is full of marbles." "Do you have any marble jar friends?" She's like, "Not the ones I shared with today." And I said, "Who are your marble jar friends?" And she said, "Hannah and Lorna." And I said, "Tell me something they do to earn marbles." "Oh, well, like if I get to my tray late at lunch and there's no place to sit, Lorna will scoot over and give me half her seat and then we just share one seat and I can sit at the table. And then the other day when I had strep throat, Hannah was worried about me. So remember her mom called and said, 'Hannah's worried about Ellen, why wasn't she at school?' But then the biggest thing that Hannah did was the other day, Oma and Opa, my parents, my mom and her her husband, came to my soccer game and Hannah looked over and goes, 'Oh my god, your Oma and Opa are here.' And I said, 'Why was that a big deal?' And she goes, 'Because everybody's divorced and remarried and I've got eight Yeah, four sets of people and she remembered their names.' And what was shocking to me is that Ellen was conveying that these marbles were being earned on these very small She knew my grandparents' name. She gave me a seat to sit at. She checked on me when I was missing school. And so it made me start thinking about the literature on trust. So I immediately go to the Gottmans. Have you had the Gottmans on here? >> Oh, twice, yeah. Yeah, I mean just like yeah. So I go to the Gottmans' research on trust and I read right off the bat where Gottmans say, "Trust is earned in small moments every day." He tells a story. It's my favorite story that he tells and I've had them on my podcast and I've done blurbs for their books and written forwards. They're just great. So he tells a story about how he's also a mystery lover like me. He's on the second to last page of his mystery. He's like, "Oh my god, oh my god. Who did it?" And he jumps up to go brush his teeth and he gets gets walks to the bathroom and he sees his wife crying and brushing her hair. He's like, "Shit. Don't look. Everything's good. Just go to the bathroom and get back in your get get back to your book." And he's like, "That's a sliding door moment. I can I have a choice in that moment to build trust and stop and say, 'What's going on?' or to build betrayal and pretend like I don't see her hurting." "So I stop. I take the brush out of her hand. I start brushing her hair and say, 'What's going on?'" That's a sliding door moment that we have all the time, right? And so to me, trust is built slowly over time, a marble at a time. And that's how That's how we teach trust to the most senior leaders in Fortune 100 companies. The trust is the marble jar. It's earned. Leaders believe and you're a leader, so you know you know the temptation. Leaders believe that in the middle of a crisis, you know, you put the numbers together and there's a fever dream in the United States and there's new tariffs and you wake up and you know, you're you're you've got a revenue line that's in crisis and then you can just look at your people and say, "Hello everyone." This is like back to the the uh executive presence. "Trust me. Here's what we're going to do." And it means nothing to people. What matters is a leader that walks past you in the morning and says, "Hey, good to see Steven. How's your mom's chemo going?" Marbles. Marbles. Then when the crisis happens, you don't need to say, "Trust me." You just need to say what's on your mind. They trust you. The other thing I think uh is often plagued my mind is as a leader, sometimes you say things and those things can't happen for whatever reason, things change. >> Right. And um And I think leaders sometimes think that trust is always being correct, always predicting everything correctly, always being right. No. Trust is Man, I think we had nailed this. I thought this was how this was going to happen. We were wrong. You've been [clears throat] working your asses off for 6 months on this and I've got to deprioritize it today standing right here in front of you. But I'm not going to [ __ ] you. You've been working your ass off on a priority that literally does not exist today. Hm. I want to stop and say thank you. I saw what you were doing. I want to be completely transparent about why the priority has shifted. And then I'm going to ask you for the same level of work on the new priority. Yes or no? Yeah, and then the blame and responsibility often rear their heads. That's right. >> For for better or for worse. >> Go like this. My eyelash or something. I know. One marble. There you go. Oh. Yeah, [laughter] is that a marble? Yeah, that is. Yeah. Yeah. Cuz you didn't have to say that, you know. I think that sometimes people say you've got some [ __ ] on your shirt. I'm like, that's thank you so much because it would have been much easier for you not to point out the boogie on my face or whatever, you know what I mean? I don't trust somebody that doesn't do that. So I guess it is [clears throat] a marble. Hm. Someone said to me a couple of weeks ago on the podcast, they said, "I trust people who say things in public that is against their near-term interests." And I thought, "Hm." Oh. Oh, I That's [laughter] good. That's That's like a That's like a That's a Right? Yeah. Yeah. It's a good metaphor though, right? Mhm. Mhm. The trust in the [clears throat] marble jar has been very helpful for us. Mhm. And let me tell you, there are behaviors This is plastic. There are behaviors in relationships where you take this whole thing and just slam it on the ground. Cheating. I think that's an obvious one. There's one that's more has a more ragged edge of grief and distress than even cheating, which is just slowly disengaging. Emotionally disengaging. >> Yeah. Mhm. Yeah, gosh. That's a ragged That's a ragged-edged break on that marble jar and it just happens over time and every Yeah, the the other people think that they're nuts and it makes them question their own judgment. 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So it's time to join the 100,000 companies that are already using Pipedrive by going to pipedrive.com/ceo now. I did something at 24 years old that has had a profound impact on my life. I set myself the challenge of posting every single day on my social media channels. And at the time, I was doing it to grow my following, but it had this profound impact on my life and two remarkable things happened when I did that. I managed to learn faster because every single day I'm capturing what is happening to me and trying to distill it down into something that I can share with the world. But more remarkably, it led me to building a following of many millions of people and that's the basis that I used to launch the Diary of a CEO. And that's why I want to tell you about our sponsor today, Adobe Express. They are the platform that I use to make all the posts across my LinkedIn and across my Instagram. It's a couple of clicks and you don't need to be an expert and that is why I love using it because I'm not an expert in graphic design. It's accessible to use for all of us, even if we don't have the technical prowess to design great things. So if you want to start compounding both your reach and your knowledge like I did at 24 years old, then head to adobe.ly/steven and get started with Adobe Express. That's adobe.ly / Steven. You have been in a relationship much longer than me, but we share a lot of similarities in many ways. I was wondering if um if you were to give me any relationship advice that might hold my [ __ ] together Mhm. over the next 30 years. I mean, you could give me so much, I know, cuz I've seen I've seen so much of your incredible I've actually stolen so much advice. One of the things I stole recently, which me and my girlfriend talked about, was sometimes I'd come home and I'm on like 10% and I heard you say this. >> Oh, yeah. And I just I don't communicate to my girlfriend that I'm on I've got like 10% left. >> Yeah. And then she you know, she might want to try and work through some [ __ ] Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. It's going to go bad. Yeah, it's going to go bad. Yeah, let's not do this at 1:00 a.m. No. >> [clears throat] >> And I saw you talk about how you communicate, you vocalize what you have left in the tank to give context to the person. I guess it's to create some empathy for both of you, but I've stolen that. But is there anything else that um you think might help me over the next 30 years to have a good relationship with my girlfriend with all the risks that you see? I'll just start by saying I think therapy, couples work, is like so incredibly powerful and helpful. I think the Gottmans' work is really like we read the Gottmans' work together sometimes. I think I think that's helpful. I'm surprised you were willing as someone that struggles with vulnerability. Oh, yeah. No, for sure. Well, you you weren't No, I was willing. Oh, really? Okay. >> Yeah, yeah, yeah. I I struggle with vulnerability, but I really respect humility in people so much that even if I'm not feeling humility, I will fake humility and be like, I need help. And then I'll say, [ __ ] this is real. This is hard. This is They say, got my number? Like, how >> [laughter] >> I damn. Hey, they just call the thing a thing. They hurt my feelers. Um but I I guess the biggest thing is that not neither Stephen I nor I had any modeling of what a healthy relationship looked like at all. And I think one commitment we made is to just keep showing up. I think these are the three commitments. Keep showing up. Don't buy into the [ __ ] that it's supposed to be easy. It'll be the hardest thing you'll ever do. And ask for help. And that's not There's no I wish I could give you like a Here's the secret to it. But the secret to us is we keep showing up. We know it's not supposed to be easy. And we get help. And the help being you turn to him and ask for help or external >> Well, we Well, we get external help, but we read. We try new things. Um we try new tools. We just we don't ever want to be done learning and trying to be better for ourselves and for each other. And that's a lot. I mean, 38 years together is not just like the slow roll movie of a life and a family, but we've buried parents. You know, we've gone through illnesses. We've raised, you know, kids. We've We've gone through different seasons in our own lives where we were not synced at all. It's really, really hard. But it's I'm more proud of it than anything I've ever done. Cuz my setup for success was zero. You've buried parents. Yeah. Christmas day? My mom died on Christmas day after my sisters and I were there at her primary caregiver for 4 years with dementia. 4 years. I wouldn't wish that [ __ ] on the people I hate the most. I know I try not to hate people, but I God gives me grace for it on occasion. But um I would not wish that on anybody. You know, there's the reality of it, you know, she gets there, there's an accident. You're showering your mom. You're bathing your mom. Mhm. You know, and she knows just enough to be humiliated by it. Mhm. But this is life. Like this is This is caregiving. You know? And it's a tremendous emotional, physical, mental weight that falls primarily on women who are also in the workforce. You know, thank God I had two sisters, so there's three of us. Um but and many people have very Many people have zero. It's like you and your PhD research PhD researcher. I have resources. A lot of resources. And I think it almost killed me. You know, and so It almost killed you. I mean, yeah, it it to lose someone that you love like I love my mom in bits and pieces in chips and bones in, you know, like that is you know, and then there was a day when she just got incredibly, incredibly cruel. Like my mom was the fulcrum. Our family changed on her back. Like she was the first person to go to therapy. She left my dad. She got us into therapy. She worked three jobs. She She changed everything. She talked about the long history of addiction in our family, you know, on both sides, everywhere. She changed our family. And so to say she was like, you know, somebody who I respected and revered like was is an understatement. And you know, and we did so much healing work around kind of how she showed up as a parent in her marriage with my dad. And so then the one day I went to go take care of her and I saw that thing that hadn't seen since I was 14, you know, and I'm 54. You know, and it literally like I couldn't drive. Like it brought me physically to my knees. Like Like my husband had to come and get me. And I don't like I can't I can't talk about it without getting emotional cuz it's not like I blamed my mom cuz she's in the middle of this disease, you know? But it was like I I didn't see her for 2 months after that. And Steve kept saying, I I said, I can't. And he's like, you got to you got to heal from that. I mean, just imagine being dropped back in a worst-case scenario situation when you were 13 or 14. And then, you know, you're just like, I can't I can't. And, you know, my sisters were like, I got We got We got this. And then they'd go through a period where they were like, I can't right now. And then I Okay, I got it. But Steve always had it. Steve was like, I got the diaper. I'll take him to dinner. I'll meet with the doctors. Like, that's partnership. You know what I mean? That's partnership. How did you How did you deal with the grief? Well, don't send me your hate mail, [ __ ] but you know, when she died, it was nothing but relief. I've heard this I've never not heard that from someone that had a parent with struggling with dementia. Absolutely. >> It was complete relief. I mean, the day before she died, I think we had a really important time with her. And I'm sure she is, you know, playing dominoes with Ann Richards and Molly Ivins and great other female Texas politicians. Um Democrats. But um cuz my mom was very radically political, but uh the window of grief was just years of There There was, you know, very early on there was no calling her to say, oh, Charlie got a really cute date. Let me show you the homecoming pictures. Or hey, Ellen, you know, got into her master's program. That that all just went away. Just every week. And so that's why, you know, the whole the whole Strong Ground book, there's a there's a sentence in the in the first chapter that said, I have a sticky note on my window on my mirror in the bathroom that says, I'd rather be the oldest woman in the gym than the youngest woman in assisted living. Mhm. Because I do believe in the connection around exercise, you know, dementia. And I I took care of my grandmother with dementia with my mom. And my mom and my grandmother made a lot of different lifestyle choices than I've made, but the whole Strong Ground metaphor is that I went to go see a trainer. And one day he looked at me and he said, he called me Brown. He said, find the ground, Brown. And I looked down and I said, okay. And he goes, not the floor, the ground. Take your feet, push in to the ground. Use your mind to connect with your body. Push into the ground and then tell your mind you're going to be using [ __ ] lats. And I was like, okay. So I did it and I felt them. And I started whispering every time I would do a weightlifting thing, strong ground, strong ground. Strong ground. An unbelievable unbelievable book. So if we we didn't cover everything in this book today, which is a great shame, but hopefully we'll speak again in the future. But it's the lessons of daring leadership, the tenacity of of paradox, which is something I was keen to talk about, and the wisdom of the human spirit. All of your books are amazing. You said it earlier on that someone called you a wizard when you were younger. That's exactly what I think you are. I think you're a wizard. Why? I think you're a wizard. You have a unbelievable pattern recognition, understanding of humans. You have so many wide reference points that it appears to be magic to a muggle like me. We're out I had a time in the team and we're going to run through the door if I'm not careful. But we have a closing tradition on this podcast where the last guest leaves a question for the next guest, not knowing who they're leaving it for. You actually know this person. Is you? I know the next guest? No, you know the one that left the question for you. Oh, got it. But they didn't know it was for you. Dear beautiful and highly intelligent next guest, what are you optimizing for right now? Strength and longevity. Mentally, physically, spiritually, and emotionally. Strong ground. The lesson The lessons of daring leadership, the tenacity of paradox, and the wisdom of the human spirit. You are You are I was trying to think if there was any others. You are the single most requested guest um and you have been on the show for for a long, long time, for three or four years. When we ask people who they want me to speak to, they say your name. And they say your name because of these the incredible work you've done through your own podcast, which I'm going to link on the screen and below right now, but also through some of these incredible books which have changed people's lives. If you're unfamiliar with Brené's work, um I think people will understand after listening today how much they're missing out on. I'd highly recommend you go and listen to Brené's podcasts, um but also to check out this book Strong Ground, which I'm going to I'm going to link below. Um also Dare to Lead. I think all of um all of the leadership team in my office reference Dare to Lead so often, which is an incredible book about Brave Work, Tough Decisions, and Whole Hearts. You make the most beautiful artwork. I consider these books to be artwork again because they pull on so many different reference points to make something that feels so original. And you've helped so many people. The fact that my audience have demanded I speak to you for so long I think is testament to that. And um you're a wonderful human being. And actually one of the things you've inspired me to be is myself. Because that's exactly what I find you to be. So, thank you so much, Brené, for your time today. It's deeply, deeply appreciated, more so than I could say. And I think you're a wonderful human being. Please come back again soon. I will. I have enjoyed every minute of this. I would say it has not been easy cuz we went to some hard places together, but [clears throat] it's been meaningful. Thank you. Thank you. >> [music] [music] [singing]