Block//45 - Masumi Interview with Patrick Tobler

Sokusumi is an AI agent marketing platform. So, the idea is really that you can hire agents on there that can help you with your marketing. The entire point is that each one of those agents is registered on Cardano. So, they have an identity on Cardano. And then that way they can also find other agents by simply looking at Cardano. >> All of us are going to have an AI agent of our own that represents us us in different ways online, acts on our behalf, and ultimately >> [music] >> communicates, hires, fires, and it's going to get crazy. Greetings, ladies and gentlemen. Welcome. I am the Crypto Crow, and I am here with Patrick Tobler of Sokusumi, who I I had no idea was now you're you're like getting big up in the big ups in the AI world. Uh I'm pretty excited about that. How the hell are you, sir? >> I'm very good. Thank you for having me. It's really nice to talk to you again after so much time. >> It's been quite a while. Absolutely. I mean, heck, you've been you've been active in the community now for I mean, probably as long or if not longer than than I have. Um >> Yeah, maybe. I think I think you were one of the first people that I ever watched a video about Cardano on. So, um you kind of helped me get into Cardano, to be honest. >> Really? >> Yeah. >> I that now that surprises me. I do hear that a lot, but from you I'm shocked. I'm actually kind of honored by that uh because you've become uh well, hell. I mean, my whole game is going through your system right now, and um you've just you've been such a an active member of the community building and and connecting with people and just everything that you've done. And now you are you're you're What is your role with Sokusumi? Tell me a little bit about this cuz I'm I've got I'm going to pull the website up a little bit so people can kind of uh get an idea and I'm going to scroll through while you're talking because I had no idea you were into this right now. >> Yeah, so so Sukusumi is an AI agent marketing platform. So the idea is really that you can hire agents on there that can help you with your marketing. And it's very much built for kind of like web two professional marketing teams from small companies to larger companies. And I think the the interesting part is that I'm not doing this alone. I am one of the founders there, but this is actually a joint venture between us at N Maker and a company called Serviceplan. And Serviceplan is a very large marketing group from Germany. So they're like a billion-dollar company. 7,000 employees, really amazing customers like BMW, Lufthansa, and so on. And and they came to me one day and they said, "Look, Patrick, we want to build kind of like this marketplace for AI agents and we want you to build the technology and we want you to build it on Cardano." And they were really knowledgeable about Cardano, which was quite surprising to me. And we at Serviceplan we're going to build the agents. Yeah. >> I don't know why that's so funny. There's [clears throat] a real company that does a lot of volume and a lot of business and they know Cardano. It's amazing. >> Yeah, exactly. Yeah, it's it's really amazing, honestly. I And I know the the main guy there, he was at the time he was the chief innovation officer and he really thought about this whole like agent future, you know. He said, "Okay, we're going to go into a world with like billions of agents that all need to interact with each other. How can this possibly scale up? How can they send money?" And he looked at all the blockchains and he said, "Okay, I think that Cardano is the correct architecture at its core um because of the eUTxO model and because of the parallelization kind of opportunities. So, yeah, really really cool stuff there. >> Very interesting. How How does this effectively does does this all work on chain somehow? >> Yeah, exactly. So, if you click on the AI Co-workers tab in the nav bar basically um what you can see is that there's a bunch of different Co-workers uh AI Co-workers. So, they are they are basically agents um from different companies. So, this one is Maya, but there's also others from Serviceplan and uh and from other companies and the entire point is that each one of those agent is registered on Cardano. So, they have an identity on Cardano. And then that way they can also find other agents by simply looking at Cardano and by saying, "Okay, you know, I might be a research agent. I'm really good at research. Anna is probably our our most popular one. Um but I might not be that good at, you know, creating visuals or something like that. So, they look up on chain. Are there other agents that offer kind of like visual services?" And then they simply hire them. They just say, "Okay, look, I like this here uh I want you to do this and that." The agent responds and says, "Okay, that's good and fine, but I need you to pay me uh 10 USDM for that." And then the agents autonomously pay for each other and that way can can create like really good outputs actually. >> Very cool. I you know, it's funny because I was working on building something just like an MVP for something like this because I know I know this is where everything's going. Like this is where I you know, I've been messing around quite a bit and um you know, I'm not you or you know, any of these guys. I'm just a a layman's basically that's learning how to get really good with agentic workflows and and things. And I've been building some pretty fun stuff, but nothing that I I share publicly. But, you know, I'm also very interested to see because I I believe identity is going to be like one of the major use cases as we get closer to 2030. I think being able to separate agentic ID from humanoid ID is going to become a real effort and a real challenge because this is only going to continue getting bigger and bigger. And I've I've been making a case, like I just did a video yesterday, I think. I called it like the most important video I've ever done. And it basically goes into a lot of the issues with um you know, how AI is going to change fundamentally everything and how we need to be able to start addressing some of that now. But the the flip side to that is I believe that everybody's going to have an agent. And like I think at some point all of us are going to have an AI agent of our own that represents us in different ways online, acts on our behalf, and ultimately communicates, hires, fires, you know, like there's going to be like a micro gig market where these agents are all just plugging each other, tasking each other with different things. And it's going to get crazy. And I I've been trying to figure out, how do I get ahead of this? How do I build something like that? And now I don't have to because Sokosumi's already doing it. So, congrats on that. How How much competition have you guys been seeing in this market so far? Have you been seeing everybody kind of starting to dabble their toes in the water or you guys frontlining a lot of this? >> Yeah, I mean, I think we we were definitely some of the first to to talk about agent-to-agent payments. Um and and we were really starting early, like before X42 was a thing, before even MCP servers were a thing. So, so 2 years ago at this point. And um And now you can very clearly see that at least the crypto world is really going all in on on this. I mean, uh even OpenAI just released a blog post yesterday talking about agent-to-agent payments. And uh Cloudflare is launching an agent wallet, you know, and Stripe is going really hard at this and uh many others. So, so you can see that the new wave, I think, is like stablecoin agent-to-agent payments. Um But if you actually look at the data, it there's not much there much going on yet. I mean, there's a there's some stuff, there's some meme coins, there's some APIs that are available for agents to pay with. But it's not that much of this like future vision where you really think, "Okay, I have my personal assistant and he talks to yours and they exchange uh money and and create tasks for each other and stuff like that." That's kind of it's not quite there yet. And and we're really trailblazing there. And I think uh that's where it has to lead to um very soon. So, So, yeah. Um definitely a competitive market, I would say, but yeah, we're here to fight and win. >> Absolutely. And do you think that Midnight is going to start playing a role in these kinds of marketplaces in the near future? >> I think so, for sure. Um I mean, realistically, the first few problems that you have to solve with agent-to-agent payments uh and these marketplaces is speed and fees. And that's definitely something where Cardano you know, has to catch up. But even if you look at all the other chains, you're not going to get to billions of transactions with agents uh on any of those chains right now. So, it's kind of something that everyone has to solve. And then, I think the next step after having solved the speed and and fee kind of uh topic, then you can think about, "Okay, uh private transactions." Cuz realistically, if I have an agent um if I have a BMW agent and it's talking to some other agent from another company, for example, then maybe BMW doesn't want that to be public. Even the fact that there are transactions between those two agents is revealing something. Um so so you definitely want to kind of like have private transactions and that's that's basically where Midnight comes in for me. >> Yeah, and I I I can see that's such a great point, too, because I can see Midnight playing a role in making sure that agents are only talking to verified agents within a certain realm or company or interest, right? So that's going to become a real big thing, I think moving moving forward as well. Do you think Leios and like running something like this on on like a Hydra head or something and like, you know, once Leios kicks into high gear, do you think that's going to bring Cardano up to the levels that we're used to seeing with other chains to help facilitate stuff like this on a grander scale? Do you think that's going to help? >> Uh definitely. I think Leios is super important for it. Leios and Paros both are super important for it. Paros for faster finality, Leios for for more throughput. And and I think these two upgrades are really going to make Cardano competitive as a layer one. But I also think that, you know, the vision is much bigger. Even a thousand TPS is not enough for for what I I'm thinking about where every human basically has an agent or multiple and they constantly talk to each other and they constantly send transactions to each other. Um there we are really talking about like millions of TPS. And or more potentially. And that >> It sounds like a use case for Hydra. >> Exactly. It sounds like a use case for Hydra and Hydra is actually a very smart architecture to make it happen. So I'm I'm quite bullish on Hydra for that. We've been using Hydra already. We've been implementing it and working with the Hydra team. Um there's still a lot of work to be done, to be honest, to really make it scalable, but uh the fact that you can just open as many Hydra heads as you want to parallelize as much as you want is just the superior architecture. >> I crunched numbers once. I can't remember exactly off the top of my head what it broke down to, but it I mean, it was something like 80-something million transactions based off of just if every node we had right now was running a Hydra head and you know, I'd have to pull that up again or maybe recrunch those numbers to show people who that needs a reminder because I find it interesting. You know, people give Charles so much flak, right? But like if you think about how he's mapped out the progress of Cardano and now midnight and how all of these things he's designed and built over, you know, since 2017 or whenever they even started, 2016, 2015, right? It's funny how so much of this stuff is now being looked at as this is a big answer for a lot of the issues that we're seeing and growing agentic anything and we're starting to see a lot of these other chains look at Cardano and say, "How did they know this? How did they build for this before it was even a thing?" I I I get curious about that myself. Like did is Charles like a Nostradamus of blockchain or something? Like who who did he talk to to say this is all coming down the pipe and you better get ready and here we are. >> Yeah, it's honestly, it's really interesting and I I think just this like fundamentals first approach that they took back then where they really looked at what is a blockchain even? How can a blockchain work? And they did like research about about these topics and they researched if proof of stake even even makes sense and all that stuff. I think that's just the correct way to do it. Just looking at it from the basics and and then going from there instead of trying to, you know, build the perfect uh system from beginning. And Cardano, I mean, there's many things you can criticize on it. There's definitely been wrong decisions, but there's also been a lot of like really correct architecture decisions. Um so, I'm I'm still happy with the technology. >> Yeah. Yeah, and I mean, you know, things change so dramatically so quickly now as well. I mean, hell, a year ago AI wasn't even really a thing. I mean, it was, but everybody was like, "Okay, cool. I can make AI images. That's awesome." But even the novelty of that started to wear down, and because it's it's almost like this exponential hunger that continues to grow. Like, the more we get used to the AI technology of today, the more we anticipate what's coming tomorrow. And if it doesn't come, we lose interest cuz now we're entitled and spoiled, right? >> Yeah. >> So, it's it's it's almost like this self-fulfilling this this churn and burn of increasing technology. And now everybody's competing to maintain our attention for it. And it makes sense that blockchain rails are I mean, when you're talking about this transition of TradFi into blockchain, then we've got AI into blockchain. We know that AI has been used for probably a decade, you know, in even governmental, you know, use cases, we'll say, right? And it's like now that it's reaching the public and it's it's enabling the public to achieve more and more and more. I mean, this Oku Sumi is like to me, it's I'm kind of I'm just fascinated with all of it. And I'm very curious to see how this continues to expand and grow itself over time because it's, you know, where where do you see this even if like the company like where do you see Oku Sumi growing outside of like is it always going to specialize in just like an internal marketplace between AI agents, or do you have plans on expanding that out further based on where the technology goes? >> Um yeah, good question. I mean the there's always plans and and we're very flexible. So, we go where the technology goes and where the users go, but essentially the we are focused on marketing agents right now. Um, because of this kind of like joint venture with with Service Plan. And we have an extremely good reach into like the European kind of businesses where we can say, "Okay, look, you're already using Service Plan. Um, why don't you try out these agents?" And that's a that's a really good like growth hack for for a startup, I would say, because we get enterprise deals that no one else uh, would be able to get without this setup. And, um, and and if we capture that market alone, if we truly become like the go-to AI agent marketplace for marketing agents, then, uh, I I think that's huge already. And then we can go the Amazon approach and we can say, "Okay, we captured one vertical like how Amazon back in the day captured books first." And then we can expand to other vertical verticals and we can say, "Okay, let's now make the best agents or or agent platform for, I don't know, accounting or whatever it is, you know." And, um, and I think that's that's kind of the strategy. And maybe one thing there to to note, I think um, a lot of the times in in crypto and especially in Cardano, we build too much for our our own little bubble. Um, I mean, you you know that, uh, better than most, I think. In Cardano, we have a lot of talented people, but we're always building for the same kind of, you know, thousand users or so. And everyone is building the same thing as well. We have, you know, 10 DEXs now and back in the day we had like 10 NFT minting platforms and marketplaces, always the same stuff. So, so with So Ku Sumi, we're very, uh, we're taking a different approach. We're really focused on building for the outside world. And, um, and we hide Cardano as much as possible. Like, yes, the platform benefits from Cardano. Yes, you can have like all this cool agent-to-agent stuff and it all happens in the background, but you don't really see it. You don't see a connect wallet button. You you as a normal user just log in and and use some agents, you know? >> The only thing I would love to see and this is something I've been kind of um preaching for a while is I would love to see companies and technologies that use Cardano. Doesn't necessarily have to be like on the sleeve, you know, uh within an app or whatever, but on the websites I would love to see technologies powered by Cardano with the logo. Just so that everybody starts seeing it as these technologies, it's just a part of the branding, right? Um and that's my only criticism. Just I would just love to see that on the main website so that we all know. Like, we don't have to see it. We don't have to feel like we're using it, but all the better if it is hidden within the application and the user experience is smooth. But then, wow, this is powered by Cardano. How did they do this? I didn't think tech blockchain work like that. I'm used to having to do this with my wallet and do that and a seed phrase and all this. So, just just a thought. Now, let's dive in a little bit more into like the actual use, right? Like, I've I've been using Codex. I've been using Claude. Now, I'm using Crock Bot, which to me is amazing. Like, I I can't even believe what I'm what the differences between the three is already like miles apart. Um but, you know, with this being something that's more focused on like the typical end user, let's say I was in I say, "Okay, well, I'm doing a lot of this stuff and because I'm in my own little bubble, you know, maybe I'm hitting roadblocks. I want to grow my channel or I want to build a marketing plan for my company." And even though I'm really good at using AI, I maybe I don't want to focus on this. I'd rather build, right? I want to build applications. I want to build things, and I don't want to have to manage a marketing team to try and expand my reach or to get customers. Can I use Sokosumi to achieve stuff like that? And if so, what are its limitations in terms of its actual like outreach or you know, the ability to touch the world, not just necessarily building applications or workflows that I use to then touch the world? Like how does it all work? >> Yeah, I What you described is exactly what what we've built Sokosumi for. We We basically want to be the tool that you can open and then you can replace whatever part of your kind of like marketing cycle um that you want to replace. And for most of our users right now, it's really the beginning. It's like the research aspect um because a lot of the like professional marketing teams, they spend a lot of time researching their competitors and doing all this kind of stuff. Um and and this can all be automated, of course, with agents already. And we we do that in Sokosumi by simply having agents that are extremely specialized in the kind of marketing area and that have access to a lot of like premium data um that you wouldn't be able to get via Cloud Code or via, you know, ChatGPT or Grok Bot. >> point. >> Yeah. >> Maybe you could get it, but it cost you a lot. All of that that is expensive through APIs. >> Exactly. And you have to first, you know, find the API and then you have to pay for it and then you have to connect it. So, like all that stuff that that most regular people probably wouldn't even be able to do. So, we built that in and then you can basically go from research and you can go to strategy and you have agents that are specialized for that and then you can go from strategy more towards execution and generating visuals. And then at some point uh creating ads, posting the ads, uh observing the ads, posting the social media posts, stuff like that. Or at least >> these agents can effectively access my social media accounts, my Well, maybe email or is that a uh it's own specific email and it actually does the posting for me. It does the actual marketing. It doesn't just put a plan together and say here you go. It it goes to work in doing those things. >> Yeah, we're not fully there yet. So so the posting part is possible but it's not amazing yet. We really focus on the on the fundamentals like Kadena from the beginning to the end basically. But but that's the goal. You should be able to completely run your marketing on autopilot. And um and I would say I would actually compare it to to GrokBot because you essentially start with like a personal assistant that you create um that has access to all your kind of accounts and all your information. But then that personal assistant can delegate work to other agents and these other agents are just registered in the network. And in most cases right now they would be service plan agents so marketing specialized agents. But it could also be an agent from a completely different company. Um anyone can register an agent and that way your personal assistant becomes like infinitely more powerful than any other agent because it has so many >> options to delegate. Yeah, exactly. >> So let's say uh what I'm hearing is maybe if I was using let's just say I'm not a big AI person and I don't have like multiple max plans. Maybe I have a $20 a month Kodex plan or something. So I have an agent. I don't really do much with it cuz I'm learning but I know that I have my business and I want to expand my business. Can I then say hey $20 Kodex agent, connect with Sokosumi and deliver like my social media access through or my MCP accounts or whatever. Maybe maybe there's an onboarding, you know, that says hey, if you're a you've got your little $20 a month agent, you don't have to put your agent to work and learn how to like control the world with it. We've got you. Here's an onboarding prompt that tells your agent how to communicate with ours and delivers maybe MCP access or or CLI access or whatever's necessary to make them all work cohesively together. And then, you know, whatever your agent has access to, our agents can have access to to do a lot of the work for you put together." Is that how it works now or is that like just a cool idea that might help people that are new to it all? >> It It's kind of how it works now. Like, you can do that, but it's not the main use case right now, I would say. Um but, we want to do a lot more of this like bring your own agent stuff. We want to be able to to say, "Okay, you can just put your local cloud code to work and connect it to Sukusumi and then hire all these sub agents through that." And um and we're working on a CLI. We have an MCP server. We have an API. So, a lot of the building blocks for it are there. Um right now, I would say the majority of interactions with Sukusumi is actually coming through uh email. Through email or through WhatsApp. >> Really? >> Yeah, yeah. It's like email is super powerful because im- imagine you work for this like boring kind of enterprise business, right? And everything is already happening through email or through Microsoft Teams or something like that. So, then just giving them the the ability to hire an agent by sending an email to the agent is is quite powerful, actually. So, I would say like the majority, as I said, of of uh messages come through that. >> What if I'm um What if I'm a bad actor? And I'm like, "You know what? I want to have some fun with Sukusumi today. I want to do some inject- some prompt injection through email and see if I can get some of your agents to do some really bad things." What do you have against that? >> So, it a very good question. You can definitely try, and I'm I'm sure there's not uh a 100% you know guarantee. >> [laughter] >> I mean agents are are non-deterministic deterministic, so that's always a risk. Um the I would say the the main point here is that Sokusumi is a marketplace. So, the agents are from different companies and every agent is built in a different way and every agent has their own kind of security mechanisms as well. So, it could be that some agents are super secure, could be that other agents are not that secure, but Sokusumi is just a middle layer. So, we >> So, you're like the layer one and you got all these third parties that could either be secure as hell or not so secure depending on how fast we want it to build and break it. >> Exactly, but of course I mean security is super important for us. We because especially because we have so many enterprise clients right now, so we are working on getting all the you know audits for all the different agents from service plan doing the SOC 2 compliance stuff making sure that everything is built in the most secure way doing pen testing stuff like that. And yeah, there's there's more coming. There's a lot of stuff I can't talk about with but we're really Yeah, I wish. We're looking really >> We'll have to bring you back when you're ready to talk about it all for sure. >> Yeah, I wish I could. I wish I could. There's so many I think the Cardano community that does not realize how many incredible customers use Sokusumi every day and create Cardano transactions every day. So, it's kind of >> Yeah, I have no idea and you can't talk about it in detail. >> I mean I can I can say that we're working on a certification program with one of the biggest audit companies in the world. So, there's only four of them, so you can pick and choose which one which is quite cool. Um >> I know people at CertiK. >> Uh it's not CertiK. >> Oh, okay. >> This is like techno like more like technical audits. If you think about the really big audit stuff, then you think more like, you know, uh, KPMG, EY, PWC, stuff like that. >> Got you. So, let me ask you one more question. Uh, I'm curious and I'm I'm genuinely curious about this because you're doing everything that I was thinking about trying to do, right? But there's no like you've got it. This is you got this on lock already. But at the very least, I'd be interested in figuring out is this a marketplace that someone like me could spin up specialized agents and other things and make them available for hire within that marketplace to generate like potentially a passive income stream for myself? >> 100% and that's actually what we're looking for. Right now >> Oh, oh, you found it, buddy. >> Yeah. This is This is a perfect. I mean >> [laughter] >> we right now most of the agents are either from Service Plan or from us at End Maker and there's only a few from external parties. And and the reason is simply because it hasn't really taken off yet with this whole agent-to-agent economy that everyone is like thinking about. But it's very clear that it will take off and then, you know, we need to have like thousands of agents from different companies very quickly and that's really that's where you can come in. So, please build build a marketing agent that you think makes sense, put it on there, we'll >> Well, I mean >> [clears throat] >> even beyond that, you know, it's like a lot what a lot of people that don't do much with AI yet and what a lot of people probably don't understand is if I'm building an application, for example, I might have, uh, you know, there might be a lot of different API requirements for whatever the application is. The AI doesn't necessarily know how to function with that API data or any of those endpoints until it's done it, right? Which is where skills come in. You you can lock down Okay, well, I've built this, you know, whatever it is, an arbitrage agent or a a trading bot or like whatever, right? And until the agent has been exposed to those things, it hasn't necessarily created resolutions to any of the problems that come up from them. And I've been experiencing this a lot firsthand lately. And so once you've been able to dial some of these things in, well, now you have an agent that's been through it, found resolution to a lot of the problems associated with this system, that system, right? And so now that agent can potentially be very useful and save someone a lot of time and tokens. Some things I've worked on for 3 weeks to finally find a firm resolution with skills laid out so that it remembers what to do when this happens and if this then that kind of equation, right? So now I have agents that could specialize in building bots or build you know, building all kinds of stuff. So because a lot of people would think, "Oh, well, this is a programmer agent and it's AI, it's super smart, it'll figure it out." That's not necessarily the point. The point is how much time is going to be spent solving all of the problems specific to what you're trying to accomplish. And it could be a it's a it's an endless sea of opportunity and the more you have bots that have been exposed to these things previously, the more powerful and and capable they ultimately end up being, which is when a marketplace like this really comes in handy. >> Exactly. And and honestly, you you and me, we're in the top 1% of AI users in the world, you know? Like the fact that we even know what an agent is. If if you really talk to the general public out there, they have no idea. They really like they're still stuck at ChatGPT, maybe they heard about Claude. That's it, you know? Some of them know Gemini because it's on their Android phones, but that's really it. So um so you can do so much if you simply specialize. And and right now everyone is building the same things. Like if if you go on X, you know, everyone is kind of a converging to the same things. There's too many coding agents, all that stuff, but but there's all these other industries that you can build for and where you can say, "Okay, now I'm building an agent specifically for that." And then it can be extremely valuable to exactly those people who would who work in that industry. >> Well, I also want to make another point about why Sukusumi's valuable and that's and I know this from experience as well. I would say at least 80% of the nonsense I see on X or YouTube is complete trash. >> Yeah. >> It's a lot of people pretending to do a lot of things they haven't done. I can tell, Claude, build me this and it will build me something that appears as though it's done and will be successful or get the job done. And then I can spin up a YouTube video about, "Look at what I built in one prompt." Right? Nobody ever talks about like Anybody that's actually built anything doesn't talk about maybe the afternoon it spent to create the 30-page prompt necessary to even get an MVP done with an agent, right? They don't say any of that. They make it all sound like glitz and glamour and look at how easy it is. Just follow my channel and you'll learn, too. And so much of that is garbage. And on top of that, a lot of it's copy-paste from somebody else's video that went viral and did real well. Now everybody's trying to copy it. Nobody really knows what the hell they're talking about. And I've had to learn that the hard way cuz I started watching some of those channels trying to figure out, "Why doesn't this work?" You know? >> Yeah. >> Now you've got agents that'll actually help you get a job done, which will be really beneficial to people. >> Yeah, exactly. And I mean, trying is often better than than trusting others and just following exactly what they're doing. >> yourself and then learn how. >> Yeah, exactly. And and people I think everyone is learning how to code right now with agents, but but it is it does feel really like programming or learning how to program because you still have to think about the problem that you're solving. You still have to break it down into smaller problems. You still have to make decisions. And And it's very hard to actually build something usable without, you know, going through those 30 hours that you mentioned. So, >> I've been looking at it more almost more like social engineering. >> Mhm. Yeah. >> You know what I mean? More than programming because I don't necessarily have to know how to read code, but I do need to know how to talk to my agent in a way that it understands what I want out of it. And that is a process. >> Ex- Exactly. I mean, you're the CEO and the agent, you know, if you had a human that was programming the app for you, um then you still wouldn't understand the code and you still kind of would have to trust the human and the best thing you can do is probably like be let him explain uh the pros and cons of choosing, you know, maybe this architecture over this architecture or this technology over this or whatever, you know? And And And it's kind of your decision how much you want to delegate to the human and how much you want to go into details. So, it really feels like managing a team. And And Sokusumi is built exactly like that. Like we treat agents like humans. And um And we we we also have this uh kind of component in there where you can like for example, we have like a Slack-like interface where you can basically chat to your entire team. Uh at Nmaker, we're 17 people right now and we're all using just that as the main messenger. We don't use Slack. We don't use anything else, Microsoft Teams or so. We just use Sokosumi to talk to each other. But in addition to us in the chat, we also have our agents. And then the agents can talk to us exactly like they were a team member, which is really cool and really how I think the future of you know, like collaborative teamwork with humans and agents is going to look like. >> I've got one final question and and and then I'll let you go, Patrick. This has been a great chat. I've really enjoyed this. >> Yeah, me too. >> The the one I'm curious like what would someone expect to pay? Is the is the cost associated with every agent dramatically different or is there kind of an average like per hour, per day, per token rate? Like how is the how is that work? >> No, it's it's very different because we have some agents that are using the newest best best most advanced models in the background. We have some agents that are using like cheaper models. We have some agents that are focused on on privacy and only using EU hosted models and super compliant and all that. So, it really and and some of the agents have like data access, right? Which also costs money money. So, it really depends on the agents. And typically the kind of like best practice that we we've been trying to enforce throughout all the agents is that they estimate the costs roughly before starting the task and then tell you, "Okay, this is going to cost, you know, like 500 credits or 800 credits or whatever." And and then you can roughly guess. >> So, the entire system operates off of a a credit system like a like a token system. Got it. Like a like a Higgs field or something. >> Yeah, basically like that exactly. And you get like credits every month that you can use and you can subscribe and then you get more credits every month. So, so very simple. What what normal users do not know is that the credits in the background actually equal USDM. So, it's literally a one-to-one kind of >> Okay. >> kind of thing, yeah. >> Okay. Well, we're going to have to stay in touch on this and I'm I'm going to explore the system myself a little bit and see if I can't get involved somehow and um Yeah, cuz I'm I've been a fan of years. I mean, you've been such a proponent of Cardano and the ecosystem overall. Man, I'm very grateful for you and what you've done in the space and we we really don't have enough people like you, honestly. Um and yeah, I'm grateful for you to to have come on and educated me a little bit on what you've got going on. It's exciting stuff and exciting times. And yeah, I mean, you know, until we meet again, my friend, which hopefully won't be too long. We've had a quite a big gap between the the first time and now. So, and for those of you guys joining us, you know, make sure you check out sokosumi.com and make sure you follow Patrick on X so that you can stay up-to-date with everything else that's going on. And until next time, thank you so much for joining us. Thank you, Patrick. Grow your coins and we'll see you again soon. >> Thank you very much for having me.