"Bitcoin Will Go To ZERO If This Happens!" - The Future Of Currency | Peter Schiff vs Raoul Pal

got all these ETFs now, that they're in it, they've been promoting it, and they've been touting it. There's been Bitcoin commercials now for years. I mean, the top advertisers on cable TV are crypto companies. I mean, they're pumping and pumping and pumping and pumping and spending a lot of money to try to con the public into buying this stuff. And so, you know, they've suckered a lot of people in, you know, but that there's a limit to how much longer they're going to be able to do it. You can't do it forever. The bottom is going to drop out, you know. And as far as the NASDAQ, look, you know, yeah, I mean, there's a lot of liquidity, there's a lot of inflation, it's been driving uh tech stocks higher. I'm not short these stocks. I mean, I think the market could go up because I think the dollar's going to go down. But at least in the tech stocks, you know, a lot of these companies are real businesses. They may be overvalued, but they have some value. Uh they're generate They're You know, you mentioned a lot of companies that you say have networks like Tesla or Apple, but they make a ton of money selling products, right? They They You know, I got a lot of Apple products myself. Apple is earning a lot of money. You know, you can argue about what the price of the shares should be, but you can't argue that there's a valuable business there. Uh but with Bitcoin, you know, there's no business. It's nothing. It's like, you know, in in in sales that, you know, they say, "Sell the the sizzle, not the steak." Well, in Bitcoin, there is no steak. It's just sizzle. It's And that's so it's all being hyped up. It's not certainly true because the people who mine it get given block rewards. So, they get paid to mining it, you make some money. Sure, I'm not talking about Bitcoin mining could be profitable for now as long as I can sell it above the cost of mining it, but that that's that's different. creates intrinsic value. It's as a business. See, Peter, it's the same as oil mining. If the cost of production is above the price of the asset, people don't mine. And so supply is reduced, or in this case, that the amount of hashing in the network, either the security of the network gets reduced. to Bitcoin, the supply has really is very little to do with mining because almost all the Bitcoin have already been mined. So, the question is with the 19 million odd Bitcoin that exists right now, forget about the couple of million more that they can bring on stream over the next few decades. The question is with the 19 million that exist or whatever many haven't been lost, is do people want to hoard them or do they want to sell them? And if they want to sell them, is there enough new demand to buy them? If not, the price crashes. What happens if China sold its gold? Oh, the price would crash. then they're buying it. the Fed sold their gold? The price would crash. needs it. This is not an argument. 10% of the all gold supply is used for industry. So, if a central bank comes in and dumps their gold like the UK did, dumped gold. Central banks have dumped gold before. Now, and it gets bought. It gets absorbed in the market. The price went down. And so, maybe the price of Bitcoin goes down when people sell it. No that's what markets do until you find the clearing price. It's normal. I don't see why it has to go to zero. One of the things that I've learned, you know, over the years with Bitcoin is it is like a religion and people believe in it the way they believe in a religion or a cult. And when you get to that type of mentality, there's no rational argument that you can make. I can't I can't logically try to tell somebody that there's no god if they believe in a god. I mean, it's a belief system that you have and it's almost impossible to to entertain uh that you might be wrong, right? So, and you know, so you believe in it, believe in it. I mean, there's nothing I can do about it. I mean, uh and if if if you end up losing a lot of money, you lose a lot of money. And the problem is, you know, some people that lose a lot of money can't afford it. The best thing about Bitcoin is that most of the people who are going to lose a lot of money are young and they got plenty of time to earn it back and it's going to be a valuable lesson that people learn that they can carry into their older years, the memory of all the money they lost in in Bitcoin. Could it possibly be you that learns the lesson? I don't think so. Okay. I mean, may maybe I'm wrong. Maybe Warren Buffett is wrong. Maybe a lot of smart investors, you know, maybe we all got it wrong and and and you guys got it right. I I don't think that's the case. But, you know, I suppose anything is possible. What would have to happen for you guys to reverse your opinion? So, Raoul, what would have to be true of Bitcoin down to zero for 10 years, 100 years, whatever before you give up? Peter, same to you. What what would have to be true for you guys to reverse your opinion? For me, simply, if people stop using the network. If if there's less activity on the network, people start becoming disinterested, then it's shown that it's store of value principles erode. It would be the same with gold. And that's one of the reasons gold has been somewhat lackluster because there's been less adopters of gold in a new digital world. So, it's not done as well as it would have done historically in the kind of debasement environment that we've had. So, if I were to observe in Bitcoin itself, forget all the other crypto, and I'm no Bitcoin maximalist as you all know, um if we saw that people were using it less, there was less activity, less value was being transacted, less new people were joining, you know, the Bitcoin network, i.e. having wallets, then I would say, "You know what? There's something wrong here." And is that persistent over time? If it's persistent over time, then the network may not work. And we've seen many of those things happen in the past. There's a possibility that happens. I don't think it's the highest probability, certainly not this decade. Could it happen after that? Of course possible. Now, why don't you worry about that during the bear markets? Because so for example in 2022 was a great example is um the market went down 70 odd percent, 75%. The number of active wallets in crypto went up 22%, uh 42%. So adoption was still ongoing while price went down. Activity was less. But then we're saying, okay, so if we step back and we hear, oh, governments are going to build on blockchain rails, CBDCs. All the banks want to put assets on blockchain rails. We're hearing gaming companies want to put these metaverse gaming experiences on blockchain rails. We're hearing I was at the world's largest one of the world's largest commodity trading firms in Switzerland last week. Speaking to their one of their senior ag agricultural commodities physical traders. I'm like and she's an investor in my digital asset asset management company. Um and I'm like, are you guys using blockchain? Surely you should be solving supply chain. She goes, oh, we've been using blockchain since 2021. So we're doing eight I think of the world's largest agricultural commodities houses are putting their letters of credit their shipping their um the the all of the kind of transit proofs, the supply chain, and the settlement all on blockchain. So going back to your question, Tom, when I see this and I see the price of Bitcoin down 75% or the whole crypto space down 80%. You say, I have to ask myself, is adoption stopping? Or is just this a cyclical factor that's driven by the business cycle? And until I would see otherwise, unless these things go away, then I can only assume that tomorrow is more digital than today. And tomorrow, more people will use blockchain technology than they did yesterday. Simple as that. Peter, what would you have to see for you to change your mind? I don't know, it's going to be tough. I mean, obviously, it hasn't been changed yet. I mean, I've been watching Bitcoin from a few dollars a token to 60,000, right? So, price obviously isn't going to do it. Um you know, the whole time I've been observing Bitcoin and and and in involved in interacting with the whole community, and I've seen it grow, and I I I, you know, I I've, you know, seen more and more people uh you know, believing in it and and and speculating on it. But, what I haven't seen is a use case. You know, people make a big deal about, "Oh, Peter Schiff, you know, Schiff Gold, we accept Bitcoin." Well, we started early on with uh working with BitPay, uh where we enable people to take their Bitcoin through BitPay, and BitPay just lets you sell your Bitcoin kind of point of sale and get dollars to buy gold. Uh but I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I Everyone assumes that while somebody buys gold with with Bitcoin, uh but they don't actually buy it with Bitcoin. They sell the Bitcoin, and then they buy the gold with dollars. But, you know, I remember back in 2017 when Bitcoin kind of popped on everybody's radar for the first time because it kind of went from obscurity, and it had that big run to 20,000 from, you know, under 1,000. All of a sudden, people start talking about it. A lot of companies started to announce, "Oh, we're going to we're We're sell products in Bitcoin. We're going to accept Bitcoin. And there was like a rush of that. And that all went away. I mean, nobody today is talking about how they're taking Bitcoin. I mean, the only company AMC, the movie the the the the meme stock for a while stock they they they said, "Oh, we're going to take Bitcoin at our theaters." Just part of the the mania. You know, that stock is down like 99% you know, since that I got hyped up. Uh uh Elon Musk uh announced at one point he was going to sell cars for Bitcoin. And I don't know how many months later he pulled the plug on the whole thing and said, "No, we're not doing it anymore." But so, we haven't seen that adoption. It hasn't It hasn't uh become any more of a currency than it was when it was first created. That's a very fair thing. It hasn't cuz the problem is it keeps going up. So, you're disincentivized to sell it or it's very volatile, right? It's not very good as a currency. Well, it's not very good at the main thing it was designed for. But and and I remember when I first heard about it, when I first heard about Bitcoin the way it was sold to me was, "Hey, you can circumvent all the AML requirements. You don't have You get out of the banking system. You can transact anonymously in private. And you're And you don't have to worry about the government spying on you. You don't You can be out of the banking system." I got into it for an entirely different reason, which is as Dan Tapiero would call it, it's the security truth machine. It's the value of the ledger. It's the value of having a new way of creating trust in the world. In a world where trust is broken. You don't know how much gold the Federal Reserve has, right? This is a trust problem. We've got the same trust problem with the futures market. I'm going to channel the comment section right now and they are all saying Peter Schiff is religious about gold because Tom asked a question, "What would need to be true for you to change your mind?" And you've spent the last 5 minutes telling us all the reasons you won't change your mind. I I well, I'm not talking about gold. I mean, gold's been valuable for thousands of years. It's not like it's up to me to decide. that. What what would have to be true for you to change your mind about Bitcoin? If the answer is nothing, that is religious conviction from where I'm sitting. I've been given the same answer for you know, for 10 years. What will prove me wrong about Bitcoin would be if Bitcoin replaces the dollar, the euro, you know, as a uh as a currency. Uh when I go to the grocery store and not only does the grocery store accept payment in Bitcoin, but all the prices are in Satoshis. But do we do that with gold? Like that's a valid comparison. Have you Have you gone to the Have you gone to the supermarket with a gold bar No, because gold No, all right. No, but gold is not being used as money right now. It's being used as a commodity. It's being used as a metal. Bitcoin can't be used as anything. So, it it has to be a currency. It was created to be a currency. So, let me see it function as a currency. It hasn't done that at all since it was created. You're applying a different set of standards, my friend. No, I'm not. It's like It's like you're also asking me, "What would it have What would have to happen for me to believe that Santa Claus is real?" I don't know. You know, I mean, you're asking me you know, it it's a fake asset. It's phony. I I can't imagine what could happen to convince me that something that isn't is. You know, it's the the the more question is what gets you to stop believing in it because you're the one that is that believes in a fantasy. I live in reality. that. His answer just to recap is that the energy in the network adoption usage would have to go down. Very finite, totally understand. But you in your defense just gave a very concrete answer. I don't know how worried about that, but I what I'm trying to do so I'm just trying to paint a sense of what the base assumptions are that build your guys' world view. Uh with that answer, Peter, I it's very helpful. Um I come back to your core thesis is if it isn't real physical tangible and does not have real physical tangible use cases, then it it will never cross your threshold. It could be into It doesn't have to be physical to be useful. But, Bitcoin doesn't do anything. All All All it is is a is a speculative vehicle that I can trade. I can Yes, I can hold it and I can sell it. But, my ability to sell it rests on the the the the fact that somebody else wants it. And why would somebody else want it? Because they think they can sell it. And they think they can sell it at a higher price. If they think they can sell it at a lower price, they're not going to want it. So, the demand for Bitcoin is a function of the fact that everybody expects the future price to be higher. But, the minute you no longer have that expectation for an appreciating price, there's no buyers. There's nothing cuz there's nothing you can do with it between the time you buy it and the time you sell it. And so, it just goes down. There's no reason to own it. I am very much not trying to convince you. I simply want this position to be understood. You can still reject and say that it doesn't work for you, and I'd completely understand. But, um I think one position that's worth putting on the table would be that I look at the economic situation that we're in right now, and I say I need a flight to safety. Um so, I have invested in gold. That That is one potential flight to safety. I have unease about that because I have a thesis that the every new child born now is going to believe in digital things more than physical things in in this case. Now, I could end up being wrong, and over time that that will be in the wash. But, again, just just trying to be understood, not trying to be convincing, um that the use case then for someone with that belief set becomes that if there are only 21 million there will only ever be 21 million, and people keep losing them, so that number's actually deflating, now I have a place that memetically people believe in, that I can I can buy and hold that. I don't need the price to be volatile. In fact, with my personality, I would rather it was not volatile. And now, as it matures, there's no volatility, or at least low, there's a place for me to um park my money that cannot be inflated. Now, I feel good. Buying Bitcoin today at 60-odd thousand dollars a Bitcoin, do you think that's safe? Do you think that's a safe place for your money? Do I think it's safe? No, I don't think anything is safe in a short time horizon. On a long time horizon right now, it feels the safest. But even if even if in the short run it can go from 60,000 to 20,000, you still think it's safe, even though you might need to sell it when it's 20,000. Well, so again, I I I don't consider myself a a a partner in this debate. I'm merely trying to steer it. So, I just want to make sure that that that idea is understood. Again, reject it is fine. Just trying to place it as a thing to be understood, because I think this is the core thing that breaks between again, you guys' archetypes. That's where I think this breaks is when I look at Bitcoin, and now I'm just speaking about Bitcoin, I see a That's That's an inflation has that hedge that resonates with me, because I believe in the same thing that Raoul has to believe in, which is the network effects. Just memetically people believe in it. And then I ask myself, is tomorrow When I say is tomorrow going to be more digital than today, I mean, will people have a baseline understanding of the world as a digital place or a physical place? I think they will have a baseline understanding of the world as a digital place more than a physical place. Now, that that may have horrendous knock-on effects. I'm I'm not even speaking to that. I'm just saying I think that is where it's going. Maybe you're right, maybe you're wrong, but regardless uh buying Bitcoin is not safe. It's it's highly speculative. You're speculating on a bunch of things that you think might happen, but you're not playing it safe. Nobody should operate under the delusion that I'm buying Bitcoin cuz I want to play it safe. You're you you know, you should not put any money into Bitcoin that you're not 100% willing to lose, all of it. So, if you're say yeah, this is risk money. I can lose every penny that I put into Bitcoin, and I'm okay with that. I mean, I hope I don't lose all my money. I hope it goes to the moon and I buy a Lambo, but if I lose it all, I'm okay because I got other resources that I can fall back on. You know, that's how you have to look at it. You can't think that oh, I'm going to put up my money on my all my money in here cuz it's real safe. Yeah, I I think that's a very very fair point and is exactly how I look at it. Um so, just to put a fine point on it. So, uh for you to change your mind, it would have to become uh a currency that replaces the dominant currencies in use today. Yeah, it'd have to achieve some kind of scalability as a medium of exchange, unit of account. And yeah, eventually the volatility would obviously have to go. It'd have to stabilize, you know, you know, at some price it could gradually rise, you know, over time slowly, you know, depending on, you know, how much inflation there is uh in other currencies, but maybe no other currencies, maybe all the other currencies go away and all that's left is Bitcoin, right? That's all That's all we have left. There's no more euro, there's no more yen. The US government wants Bitcoin. Bitcoin is how you pay your taxes. Bitcoin is If you get a welfare check, it's it's Bitcoin. That's what you get, right? If If this all this happens, then I guess I was wrong. Um but if all it is is a speculative vehicle, if all we have is more ways to bet on the direction of the price, uh then nothing has been proven. And yeah, the price could go up. Could it go from 60,000 to 100,000? It could. But it could go from 60,000 to 10,000 or a lot lower. And my question would be and I'm sure if Bitcoin falls today from 60,000 to 20,000 or 10,000, all the people who have been telling me how great it is, they're they're not they're going to be saying the same thing. They're going to And they're going to be saying, "Well, don't worry. It'll come back. It'll come back." Well, maybe maybe not. Maybe it won't come back, you know, maybe it Maybe the next time it really drops, it'll just drop again. There's no way to know, you know, they always say past performance is no a guarantee of future results. So, just because Bitcoin has come back in the past doesn't mean it's going to come back in the future. Do you do speculative investing? Do you have a portion of your portfolio? Yeah, I mean, I do. I mean, I've been buying That's what I said. I bought a lot more gold stocks this week. I regard that as highly speculative, but I bought I bought them. I thought I think, you know, I think they're cheap. I think I'm going to make a lot of money on my gold stocks. We'll see. Uh but I know I'm speculating. I didn't buy I didn't buy any physical gold. I did I bought I bought gold stocks. Now, when I buy gold stocks, I own some physical gold because the gold mining companies have gold in the ground. They haven't mined it yet. So, as a as a stockholder, I have a share of that unmined gold. Okay, as uh for both of you, as spec when you're speculatively investing, do you look for volatility or do you avoid it? Raoul? If I'm speculatively investing, I'm looking for volatility with a risk-adjusted return I think is in my favor. Obviously, we get bets wrong, we get bets right. That's the idea. So, you you look for a strong trending asset with some hypothesis that is relatively provable over time that should continue to drive the asset, whether it's the Indian stock market, a technology company, or Bitcoin, or even gold. Volatility is something you want if you're a trader. I mean, if you're trying to trade a lot, I don't try to pick the bottom. I don't try to trade. I don't try to When I talk about speculating in an asset like a mining company, I'm not looking for the volatility. I'm looking to buy something that I think is cheap. But I'm also hoping that there's a catalyst so that in the future it will become expensive. And so I want to buy something when I think it's cheap and not a lot of other people want to buy it. And I I want to hold it till I think it's expensive and everybody wants to buy it. And I may be wrong, right? I'm making a gamble cuz I'm betting on things changing. I'm betting on whatever exists today, whatever perception people have, that those perceptions are wrong and they're going to change in the future. And so I don't care about volatility. I mean, I just want to buy. I want I care about price. I want a low price. Uh and um and what I like about the gold stocks is nobody really owns them. There's just a handful of people that if you if you look at the major uh you know, holders, institutions, endowments, pension funds, hedge funds, they own either no gold stocks or just a tiny amount. But most of them don't own any. In fact, I I joked on my podcast, you know, there was the Nvidia's increase in its market cap in a single day basically exceeded the entire gold mining industry in one day, just the gain, not the market cap of the whole company, just the increase on that one day. Uh so it's a tiny little segment of the market that has the potential to be a lot less tiny, you know? And if that's the case, you know, I I can make a lot of money in these stocks. Meanwhile, I do get some dividends. A lot of my gold stocks are not my best dividend payers. I mean, but I get 3 4% dividend. So I collect some interest, some income on a lot of these gold stocks. Uh but I'm giving up some income cuz I get better yields in other investments, but I think there's a lot of potential for appreciation. I recognize I could be wrong, in which case I don't get the appreciation, but I think, you know, some of these stocks can go up five or 10-fold. Some of them, the smaller ones, could go up 50 or 100-fold. So, I I I think there's a lot of uh upside potential relative to the the downside risk in these stocks. So, that's why I'm I'm buying them, but I look at them as speculative. If you had a time machine, you could go back in time and buy Bitcoin 10 years ago, would you do it? Of course. I mean, I'm not an idiot. Well, first of all, if I had a time machine, I could do a lot of things. I, you know, uh and I I you know, I'd be the you know, but of course, look, you know, yes, do I regret I mean, I remember when I was sitting at my desk, my studio in Connecticut, in Weston, and a guy working with me on my campaign, they were showing me Bitcoin. And the guy was like, "Look, just buy some." You know, what the hell? And I looked at it, and I don't remember if it was under a dollar or over a dollar, cuz I can't remember. But I remember it was like 2010 when I looked at it. And I remember I thought about it. Yeah, should I could I mean, I could throw 10 grand in it, 50 grand. I don't know. I thought about it. And I didn't do it. I was like, "Ah, you know, this is ridiculous. Well, what am I you know, I I I I just I I I went away from it." But I thought about it. I I thought about all the odds, and I I I didn't see this kind of bubble potential. I mean, I thought, yeah, maybe it could go up, but I just didn't want to deal with it. Now, obviously, do I wish I had made a decision to have thrown 10 grand, 50 grand, 100 grand into it? Sure, yeah. I mean, it'd be worth hundreds of millions, assuming I didn't sell. But again, I don't know what I would have done had I made that decision. Maybe I would have put it all on Mount Gox, and then lost it there, but I don't know, maybe some of the Mount Gox money is coming back. Um I don't know what I would have done if I had bought it. But yeah, clearly, I mean, I I mean, I wish I'd have bought it, but, you know, I I would even if I had bought it, even if I would have bought it, I wouldn't have told other people to buy it. I would have had to kept quiet about it because I never believed in it. So, I would have bought it just betting on other people being dumb enough to buy it and pay a higher price, right? I I wouldn't have bought it because I actually believed in it. I would have bought it because I believed other people would be would be foolish enough or greedy enough to buy it. So, I would have had to kept it quiet. I couldn't have like encouraged other people to buy. So, I would have I I I So, I think publicly I I wouldn't have had a different you know, I would have been singing the same song. I just would have made a lot of money if I would have if I would have bought it. So, you don't think there's a remote chance you might have been more enthusiastic about it had you have bought it been involved in the community, made some money attended some of these conferences, saw what's going on with the technology. Could it have been a different Peter Schiff and it could have been Schiff crypto written on the wall there? I think there's a chance it could have been and maybe you missed it. Well, look, I like to think that I have integrity and that I would have had the same outlook, but is it possible that had I bought it like so many other people did might the fact that it went way up might I have decided that rather than being a lucky gambler, I was some kind of a genius and I I I I maybe operated under the same delusion. I mean, it's possible. Look, you know, there's you know, power corrupts so maybe money corrupts or it distorts your perception. I mean, it's it's easy for me to see the bubble when I'm not inside it. So, maybe if I was in the bubble with you guys, maybe if I was a crypto billionaire, maybe it maybe maybe that would distort my perception. So, maybe I would be maybe I would be out there, you know, just as crazed as you guys. Peter, in what world do you think it's acceptable to insult asset holders and think that's a normal thing? That they're idiots, they can't see it, they're speculate it. Why is Why is that becoming an acceptable way of interaction? I don't do it to Apple shareholders. Well, I mean like Also, I mean it's not It's not So, there's a there's a some sort of psychology around gold that it feels like it's being threatened. And that therefore there's an attack. There's an attack going back. I mean, it's kind of strange. Well, I I look, I talked to a lot of people during the 1990s who were in love with various dot com stocks and they all went to zero. I talked to a lot of people who thought they would get rich owning their home and multiple homes during the the the real estate bubble. And so, I know the psychology and and the way people act when they're trapped in a bubble and they can't see it. Now, there were plenty of smart people that owned these stocks that went to zero. There were plenty of smart smart people that owned real estate. So, I'm not saying There There are some really smart people, I mean, intellectually smart, high IQ smart that own Bitcoin. I'm not saying they're dumb. I'm just saying they're making a mistake and their judgment is being clouded by the money. Uh they can't they Everything is going to be obvious in hindsight. See, a lot of the things that I was saying when I was warning about uh the housing bubble and the subprime market, a lot of the things I was saying in 2003 and four and five and six that were being dismissed, all of a sudden people were saying the same thing. Oh, yeah, of course. Yes, yes, this that's the Peter, are house prices higher or lower than they were then? Are technology stocks higher or lower than they were? a lot A lot of them went to zero. It doesn't matter. Most of the dot com stocks went to zero. Yes, if you bought Amazon, if you bought, you know, uh uh know, uh uh you know, if you bought There are some stocks that made it. But if you bought pets.com or the globe.com, you lost everything. There were a lot of stocks. Most of them went to zero. You just need to know the Nasdaq. It's an index and it has the top 100 technology companies. So the bad ones get dropped out, the good ones survive, and you made an enormous amount of money by backing technology. But you're saying that people were stupid to buy technology in 1999. talking about individual stocks that I'm talking about people where they they were cult-like You would have picked the stocks better than those people, for sure, cuz you saw it was all a bubble. the Nasdaq the Nasdaq went down from 5,000 to 1,000. So it went down 80% and the only reason it didn't go down 90% was because the Fed slashed interest rates to 1%. 15x. It's up 15x. It's up 15x. know where it is now. It's another bubble. So let's see where the let's see where the next bottom is. You know, I mean it's not I mean we're going It's a serial bubble blowing. It's the same inflation that you're talking about that is driving these asset bubbles. I'm not I'm not denying that that happened. You know, and I own I own some stocks that are in the technology that have gone up 10 I don't I don't own none of these stocks. I I have some. So out of interest, what value do you get out of owning your gold? What is it that it does for you? Gold Gold Gold is a small part of my portfolio, physical gold, but it's a it's a store of value. It's a safe haven. It's an insurance policy. It's it's I I look at gold Against what Against what, Peter? Well, when you ask me, why do I own gold? You should say, why do you own dollars? Why do you have dollars in the bank account? Why do you have euros or yen, right? Why don't I just spend all my dollars and buy assets, buy real estate, buy stocks? See, gold is liquidity for me. It is an alternative to the dollar, to the euro. It's not an alternative to real estate. It's not really alternative to stocks. Uh it's an alternative to to the dollar. So, what are you most overweight in? Do you think your your savings um mainly in real estate or you know what how how do you think are investments. Savings can be in gold, but you real estate would be an investment unless it's my you know my primary residence or something, then it's more of a an investment you're speculating in going up, right? Cuz that's what an investment is. Well, an investment would have an income component. So, if I have real estate, I got rental income. If I own stocks, I have dividend income. Uh so, my my my investments are generating a return. Um you know, if you're speculating, you know, you're you're betting on the price going up. is Amazon an investment? Well, Amazon pay a dividend, right? So, I'm confused cuz it sounds like it's a bad investment Well, Amazon has earnings. So, it could pay a dividend if it wanted to, but it's reinvesting it. do, but it doesn't. That makes it okay. Okay. But But you're asking me, do I think Amazon is a good buy? No, I don't. I think Amazon is very is overpriced. It's obviously been overpriced for a long, long time, you know? And and and and that hasn't stopped it from going up. But I do think that there is a major decline in Amazon's future, whether it happens in nominal terms or in real terms. So, nominal terms would be the dollar price goes down. In real terms, the gold price goes down. But one of those two things is going to happen. I don't own Amazon. I mean, I I'm a I'm a good customer. We buy from Amazon every every day. So, I know they you know, there there's definitely value in that business model. The question is what's it worth, you know? What's the what should the price be? And I think the market has been overpricing it for a long time. If you like that clip, check out the full powerful episode here, and I'll see you there.