Video summary
Freya India argues that therapy culture has effectively replaced religion for many young women, particularly in Generation Z, where it serves as a secular worldview offering comfort and belonging without demanding behavioral restrictions or sacrifices. She notes statistics indicating that 32% of American adolescents aged 12 to 17 received some form of mental health treatment in 2023, suggesting an escalation from clinical therapy into a pervasive cultural lens through which life is interpreted. This therapeutic worldview pathologizes ordinary human experiences like disappointment or anxiety by framing them as medical issues such as attachment styles or trauma disorders rather than natural emotional responses. While this provides solace similar to religion, India contends it creates a "slippery" version that removes inconvenient demands on freedom and standards of behavior, allowing individuals to avoid the discipline required for genuine self-development. The speaker highlights significant dangers in how young women internalize these therapeutic concepts, often using diagnoses like anxious attachment as excuses rather than areas for growth. She contrasts this with religious backgrounds, citing research by Jonathan Haidt showing that teenagers from conservative or religious families possess a stronger sense of control and better mental health outcomes due to clearer boundaries and living with both parents. India suggests that therapy culture encourages excessive self-focus and rumination, which can be particularly harmful to girls who naturally tend toward it more than boys. This inward turn prevents them from addressing actual problems in relationships; instead of confronting issues like a partner's infidelity or poor character directly, they attribute everything to their own internal disorders, thereby losing the language needed to describe real-world conflicts and shutting down constructive criticism. India draws parallels between this female-centric therapy culture and male self-optimization trends, such as extreme productivity routines involving red light therapy or ice baths, noting that both represent avoidance strategies aimed at maintaining perfect control over one's life before committing to others. She references Oliver Burkeman's *Meditations for Mortals* and C.S. Lewis’s idea that distractions are simply parts of life itself, arguing that the pursuit of a perfectly controlled environment makes relationships seem like chaotic obstacles rather than opportunities for connection. The conversation also touches on how social media exacerbates these issues by creating echo chambers where users co-ruminate over vague red flags in potential partners or mimic symptoms like Tourette's ticks as an identity marker, effectively normalizing neurotic behavior while obscuring the reality of genuine suffering seen in cases like Lee Capaldi’s decline. Furthermore, India critiques how family breakdown and a lack of adult guidance have left young people seeking direction from influencers who commodify relationships and bodies for profit. She points to the normalization of "soft launching" boyfriends on Instagram or treating partners as brand collaborations, behaviors she attributes to girls growing up performing their childhoods online rather than living them authentically. The discussion extends to how modern incentives reward promiscuity and assertiveness—traits once associated with toxic masculinity—as signs of a healed woman, while stigmatizing modesty or emotional sensitivity. Ultimately, India concludes that the current generation is nostalgic for a pre-smartphone era where love was mysterious and community existed offline; without adult wisdom passed down to navigate this new world, young people are left anxious and ill-equipped, forced to feel their way through life with no established rules or archetypes to guide them.
Read the full video transcript
why do you think so many girls are drawn
to therapy
culture oh I think it's a lot of things
um I do think this is kind of a cliche
thing to say now but I do think therapy
culture has replaced
religion um and that's not a new thing
to say people have been saying that for
a long time so Christopher lash was
writing about that in the 70s uh Frank
fudi writes about it really well now but
in recent years since social media I
would say therapy culture has just
escalated um
to the point where I think young women
don't see it as a worldview they just
see that as kind of life so they
interpret everything through this
therapeutic lens so their lives their
relationships their
emotions um and I think it has elevated
to the level of
religion um so you think of you think of
all the kind of characteristics of
religion we just mimic them with therapy
culture so instead of praying we just
repeat our like positive affirmations um
instead of like seeking salvation you'll
go on like a healing Journey um instead
of like you know resisting temptation
from the devil you'll reframe your
intrusive thoughts um and so I think for
young women in particular who are
becoming less religious this kind of
therapeutic worldview has completely
replaced that void what does a
therapeutic worldview consist of what
what what does that mean um like seeing
seeing problems in your
life kind of pathologizing problems and
experiences as something medical rather
than I'm just experiencing this emotion
or kind of age-old anxiety now it's
become a medical issue um so things like
talking in the language of attachment
Styles uh and and Trauma and losing the
language of just ordinary hurt and
disappointment and things like
that and and for some reason this is
giving some kind of Solace or
Comfort order being brought out of chaos
I think it gives the Comfort religion
gives and the consolation of like like
you see young women on Tik Tok saying
things like um like they won't pray to
God but they'll give a request to the
universe and like have faith in that
yeah and so I think it gives all the
comfort of religion but it takes away
the inconvenient parts so the any actual
demands on you or kind of restrictions
on your freedom or anything like that
being held to standards of behavior Etc
so it has what women are craving in
Modern Life I think which is belonging
and Security in something and faith in
something but it's it's a much easier
version of religion slippery religion
yeah yeah how many of these girls are in
therapy do you think a lot um there was
a study recently showing 32% of all 12
to 17 year olds in America have either
had therapy been on medication or had
some kind of treatment in
2023 um in over a single year one third
which is insane
and I was talking to someone about that
statistic and they were like oh that's
great that's amazing and I was thinking
that's a bleak statistic um so yeah I
think there's there's the girls that are
in therapy which is a lot but then
there's also the girls who just like
living in therapy culture so it's just
they scroll through Instagram and it's
all about attachment Styles trauma they
go on Tik Tok and it's like a trauma
informed therapist telling them like red
flags they should watch out for and
stuff it's just like there's the actual
therapy which I'm sure there is there's
useful therapists but there's also just
this culture which is just the world
that they're swimming in yeah so you're
never able to switch it off I think um
alander Boton was sat in that same seat
as you mhm big proponent of
psychotherapy I think trained as a
psychotherapist himself too owns a
school of Life which isn't just a
YouTube channel but a Psychotherapy uh
facility here in London yeah and even he
like the biggest proponent of it I think
would very much say that there is a time
for therapizing yes and then there is a
time to not in the same way as going to
the gym there is a time to train and
then there is a time to recover and I
wonder
whether one of the criticisms that
common that I put to him was uh lots of
people online more old school people
more sort of typical stiff up a type
people yeah would say uh you're not
fixing your past's problems you're
dwelling on them and by dwelling on them
you are ruminating too much there is
some evidence I mean a good bit of
evidence rumination is not particularly
fantastic for you and finding this line
between yeah mate we don't want to deny
that bad things happened and never
alchemize them or transcend an include
them into our life yeah and then on the
other side we don't want to wallow in
them uh but I suppose if you have the
online environment that you exist within
permanently using this language you're
permanently having these structures and
these thinking patterns reinforced and
then it's how you begin to talk to
yourself about what happens offline yes
and then you also have you know
facilitation or medication or
conversations with your friends further
embracing all of that it's you're just
entrenched in all the time yeah well I
used to think and I think a lot of
people think therapy cultures
particularly bad for men because it it
kind of has a female approach to
problems and it's about you know
ruminating and often it's like if you
don't have a female response there's
something wrong with you it's kind of a
red flag if you don't go to therapy but
I actually changed my mind on that and
actually think therapy culture is worse
for women because women ruminate more
they Co playing into the weakness that
they already have or the disposition
yeah if you think of an anxious this
young 14-year-old girl the worst thing
you can tell her is to go further into
her own head to get relief and to think
more about her problems and to kind of
search her life for symptoms you know
that if you told me that at 14 it's the
worst thing I could have heard um so I
actually think maybe some men do need to
do that a little bit more but the
average young girl uh needs to kind of
cut out I wonder
whether therapy language and therapy
culture for girls is what Jim language
gym culture yeah Psalms testosterone
steroids at
17 uh is for guys yeah I think it's a
form of control so it's like it's our
version of control you know if we feel
uncomfortable or feel an uneasy emotion
we're just like I'm going to categorize
that and diagnose it you know that's my
attachment disorder or that's uh my
depression um and I think men do that
kind they have their own kind of
self-optimization Trends and the gym
stuff where that can become like a form
of control um to deal with kind of
uneasy emotions and I think yeah this is
the woman's version of that it's like we
can't sit with it or just accept like a
painful situation so I often think
about so if you look at these kind of
attachment style forums or girls talking
about their attachment Styles very often
they'll describe just a bad relationship
and then they'll say oh it's my
attachment disorder they'll be like he
cheated on me and I can't get over it
because of my anxious attachment and
it's like it's so sad because they're
actually losing the language to talk
about the actual problem that they're
facing because they're trying to get
control because it's a lot easier to be
like oh you know I'm anxious or he's
avoidant then we have a terrible
relationship and I've just wasted four
years with someone it you get the
control through the therapy culture um
so that's where I see it becoming a
danger to girls and young women what's
that stat that you mentioned there about
girls from religious families seeming to
do differently well and now 18 to 25
year old girls are religious at
different levels and stuff yeah so I
think for the first time in history
young women are less religious than
young men now typically women would have
been more
yeah but among gen Z it's men that are
going to church way more than women now
um and Jonathan he did some research on
this showing that he like presented he
looked at a survey of statements and
they were things like I have no hope in
myself I don't believe like really
self-disparaging
statements um and he found that
teenagers without religion agreed with
them way stronger than teenagers who
were religious and especially who were
conservative um and I think there's a
couple of reasons for that I think one
is kind of that external locus of
control so conservatives tend to have
more
um of an internal locus of control so
they feel more control over things
happening in their lives also if you're
conservative teenager you're more likely
to be living with both parents which I
think protects your mental health um and
also your parents are more likely to
have clearer boundaries with you um
which I think is actually very useful
for anxiety um and depression so there's
different explanations for it but yeah
it's a worry because Young women are
becoming less religious and their mental
health is also tanking um so there has
to be some link
there and maybe therapy culture therapy
language is stepping into the void yeah
and also stopping them from perhaps
going back to finding religion hesitant
to say therapy culture is getting in the
way of religion like religion is
necessarily the answer to this but that
it's
whatever better Alternatives could be
including religion are being precluded
by this much sexier uh
newer more comforting answer to
everything that makes no demands on you
as a person that doesn't require you to
follow any edicts or or refrain from any
types of behaviors well therapy culture
I think it probably is getting in the
way in a sense because it's it's kind of
the opposite of religion so if you think
of Christianity it's about
dying to yourself like giving up some of
yourself um to be part of something
bigger therapy culture is all about
going more and more into yourself
discovering yourself and like finding
your authentic so it's the complete
opposite so something like Christianity
I think most young women just view it as
really restrictive and limiting and
something like therapy culture or just
liberal culture in general tells them
that any limit or constraint is a
problem what like well just this sense
in culture now that any obligation is
like an obstacle to your life or your
mental health I think I think that's
just endemic from everywhere we look um
and it's yeah very much the opposite of
what religion tells us which is that
through sacrifice you find kind of
actual fulfillment and you kind of break
free from yourself now we're kind of
told whether it's through feminism or
therapy culture whatever girls are
scrolling through on Tik Tok Instagram
it's like you know things like you think
of therapy culture on Tik Tok it will
say something like don't be a people
pleaser don't be needy um but these
things are kind of the opposite of what
Christianity is telling you which is
like you should be someone who puts your
needs second it's good to be someone who
gives for other people who depends on
people and they depend on you um that's
not the message girls are growing up
with is therapy culture less
pro-social yes I think so well again
you're just going
inwards um and yeah also I often think
of again it's a similarity
between therapy culture for women and
kind of self-optimization stuff for men
because it's like for men if you go too
far that way other people become
obstacles to your like ambition and your
self-d development um so people become
like distractions and annoyances it's
same with therapy culture because then
for a young woman who's really into
therapy culture a man is just like an
obstacle to her healing and her mental
health um so I think if you go too far
in it you can just interpret anyone or
anything as a threat to your peace yes
yeah that's very interesting which is
you know the best kind of relationships
are the ones that make both people in
them better yeah that they enter the
relationship and stay in the
relationship hopefully or if they leave
they leave
in an improved situation individually
yes but I don't think um that's really
getting across to young women I
think yeah that I think what the problem
is is you go on something like Tik Tok
and you have like a traar enformed
therapist who might be interesting and
informative but she's now competing in a
attention economy so she has to create a
video which is engaging and extreme so
she has to say five red flags you should
avoid in men and they're they're things
that are just so vague and um what like
things like well I literally saw one
that said gifts and trips is a red flag
because it's love bombing okay um but
other things like they'll say you know
you're in a bad relationship if he makes
you feel insecure for example by making
a comment about your looks but it's it's
so vague that it's like well anyone's
boyfriend
could be included in that somehow um but
if you add them all together if you're
scrolling through this all day every day
which a lot of girls are the message is
basically like anyone can be toxic and
anyone can be a red flag unsafe yeah and
you're unfortunately girls do co-
ruminate together and it's really bad
for their mental health so whole
ruminate yeah so dwelling on their
problems with friends um
which if you think of something like a
Reddit Forum that is just a rumination
machine it's just like it's there for
everybody to analyze together Tik Tok is
literally somewhere you can ruminate and
then it will start recommending you new
disorders and
problems so it's like it's it's kind of
like the inner world of these young
girls but now getting fed more and more
to them um other people's inner worlds
which can become a sort of oh that's a
nice thought pattern maybe I'll try that
that one on yeah and the most risk
averse neurotic anxious women on there
will get the most traction because
they'll be saying and everybody else is
following along from them yeah so if you
spend too much time on there you will
think that like a well adjusted woman
doesn't need anyone doesn't have any
distraction in her life and feels good
all the time that no one ever threatens
her or makes her feel anxious and and
that's just like a lonely life and any
perturbant from feeling the opposite of
that is not because of her it's because
of some insult that's occurred in one
form or another from the world or from
structures or from a partner or from a
friend or from but the problem with that
is you shut down any constructive
criticism of you like if your boyfriend
has a constructive comment about you if
you are being selfish or something um
therapy culture does provide endless
excuses to kind of twist That Into You
don't need to hear this yeah is a toxic
person you're only like that because of
your childhood trauma he's just like an
[ __ ] but you have like all of these
reasons why you behave that way have you
contrasted this I don't know whether
you've been able to look at it with what
young guys see is there an equivalent
for young guys I I think the only
equivalent I can think of is the
productivity stuff so I don't know if
you saw that tweet recently of the guy
he's like uh this morning routine saved
me so he does his morning routine which
is like super productive it's like
everything it's the red light therapy
and the journaling and everything um but
it's kind of eerie when you watch it
because it's like this is not a
lifestyle you could have with anyone
else around it's so to the absolute like
minute um and you think like this is
kind of a similar thing with therapy
culture it's like we're trying to have
this perfect control over our lives and
like get perfect control before you
commit to anybody
um and then you think of things like
young people not wanting to get married
and have children and it's like well
yeah because there'll be a huge obstacle
if we think that we have to have this
perfect control over our mental health
or our productivity routine um anyone
else is going to seem like chaos coming
into that and so I think young men and
women can both can both go to an extreme
of
those but it's kind of the same thing
it's like an avoidance strategy it's
like I have full control in this
situation and I'm not vulnerable have
you read any Oliver burkman yes I love
Oliver burkman he's great he's
phenomenal did you get his new one
meditations for Mortals okay came out a
couple of months ago one of the best
things that I got exposed to this year
just talks about a lot of this you know
it's very uh self-deprecating very
British some might say yeah uh no I
relate to him painfully
because yeah me too uh he really
sees a particular cohort of human nature
very transparent I think yeah and I
think I have that tendency to see people
as distraction because I'm trying to
work so I'm often like you know I need
to write in perfect silence I need to
have my perfect routine um and yeah I I
read a quote I think it was CS Lewis
saying something like eventually you
realize that all of these distractions
from your life were just your life um
like they weren't distractions at all
and I think it's really sad to kind of
teach young people or just drill into
their heads that they should avoid
anyone getting in the way of their
self-development and their ambition or
their healing because that's life
getting in the way um and yeah it's sad
to see people kind of half-heartedly do
relationships or kind of um put them off
in pursuit of that ultimate control I
think that's a really that will backfire
eventually what are the problems of
excessive self-
Focus um
well I think that I think it's Jordan
Peterson says there's no difference
between like self-obsession and mental
illness in the sense that it's all
focusing too much on yourself not to say
that it's in your control all the time
necessarily but that is what it is it's
focusing too much on your own
problems um and I think yeah as I said
girls are particularly vulnerable to it
and I think it what it does is it blocks
real self-development because you can't
see where you're going wrong because you
have these endless excuses for why
you're behaving the way you are um so I
think a lot of girls think they're doing
self-development and self-reflection but
it's
actually accidentally like
self-obsession because they're they're
thinking oh you know I'm analyzing my
attachment style and I'm thinking about
my trauma and I'm like doing the
work but there's not much actual
self-development going on work being
done yeah and I think it it can kind of
be a trap where you think I'm working on
myself as a
person um and the same with the
self-optimization stuff like I think you
can get so obsessed with stuff like
maybe the ice bars and the breath work
that you're not thinking about trying to
be a better person like it just becomes
there's a couple of traps uh for that
Alex hosi taught me a really really good
lesson as I started to do like little
bits of investing and stuff like that so
sometimes a company will say hey we
we're this interesting company in a
world that you maybe know or like would
you like to put some money in and maybe
come on as an adviser or whatever it
might be and I was talking to him and he
said how many of these calls are you
taking so I don't know you know maybe
had two last week or something he says
they're the most dangerous calls that
you have because they all feel like work
they all feel like business and almost
none of them result in anything and it's
kind of like that upfront it feels like
you're doing a thing which is more
dangerous than not doing anything at all
because it acts as a placeholder it
takes up the parking of what could be
work yeah if you're doing nothing you
would have this big vacancy and you go I
really I really need to setep my game up
do whatever yeah uh you know it's one of
the problems I think that people have
with uh scam supplements uh with
training styles that don't actually do
anything that it the subtext that they
understand is this thing is taking the
place of something that would work and
this thing doesn't work which means that
you're you're getting neither of the
benefits it's kind of like the
highlighter goals who like girls who
have like the perfect highlighters and
gel pens for their exam but they get
like a d because they were obsessing
over having the perfect setup the system
not the outcome yes yeah that is
interesting um I
suppose this self-pity thing gets
wrapped up as empowerment
in a way yeah and that causes girls to
suffer yeah and it's funny because
there's a lot of emphasis on like
um like women walking away from
disrespect and not tolerating any bad
behavior um but there's also kind of
this self-pitying stuff going on so it's
like real empowerment would be very
often I'm yeah I'm not tolerating this
I'm walking away but you kind of you
look look online now and there's a lot
of young women who just ruminate over a
problem so like I was saying before they
might be in a bad relationship and
they'll be analyzing both of their
attachment Styles and thinking about how
it's toxic and talking to other girls
about it rather than just leaving and so
I think sometimes young women like and
me as well get caught up in the
analyzing and not the actual
action and they think all the mental
health stuff is actually empowering them
but I often see it like taking again
taking the language away from actual
problems and rather than everybody
opening up is actually like closing down
their ability to see what's going on and
act upon it in other news this episode
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health.com slod wisdom well all of this
stuff is instrumental there are things
that you do in order to be able to do a
thing yeah the the the mode is not the
end itself yeah and it's the same with
the morning routine thing you I hold my
hands up I would I if not for a slightly
different life and a different algorithm
that could have been me the guy that
went that trended on Twitter I said this
a couple of times but I had an absurdly
long very elaborate routine for about
probably four years three or four years
uh and my retrospective justification
for it is that I had done so little in
the way of self-reflection yeah that I
had you know from 18 to 30 or whatever I
had over a decade of catching up to do
and it could have I could have spaced it
out like a normal sane human and it
might have taken some time or I could
have done Navy SEAL hell week version uh
very intensely and uh get up on the
morning and go for a walk and get back
and journal and do breath work and
meditate and do yin yoga and then prep
my food and and read and then start my
day and I'm like how [ __ ] opulent and
luxurious and ridiculous and
inaccessible all of these things I
understand uh but I had a lot of low
hanging fruit that I needed to get and
then higher hanging fruit too uh but one
thing that I am happy about is that I
never
confused the mode of improvement for the
reason for the Improvement yes and very
quickly looked at ways to apply that
right okay I
um seem to be able to deal with
emotional perturbants a bit better now
after a few thousand sessions of
meditation huh maybe I should use that
and start pushing myself into different
places emotionally uh wow I've learned
some stuff about how human nature works
or resilience or whatever let's see if I
can find some situations that I can
stress test that and see if it actually
works for me or I've got new Mobility
because I've been doing yin yoga for
[ __ ] forever uh maybe I can start
doing CrossFit which I did or a
different training modality or something
else um not confusing instrumental Goods
for the ends themselves uh I think is
very important and it takes the
placeholder the therapy culture takes
the placeholder of something that could
be functional work and very
viciously encourages you to not actually
go out and even try that there is no
such thing as a stress test of this
anytime it gets it's unfalsifiable
anytime it gets stressed it's a an
admission that the very philosophy
itself was correct and that you should
have never encountered this thing in the
first place well I think you view it as
you've said about like the lonely
chapter you view it as like a set time
that has to come to an end yes which is
what therapy should be as well is like a
set period um but the problem is now
therapy culture stuff is so tied up with
identity stuff so you get kind of young
girls who start reading about social
anxiety and they relate to it because
they're 14 and shy and everybody is yeah
and they go on again these forums and
these communities where everyone's
saying um I have social anxiety disorder
and because of that I can't get public
transport or because of that I can't do
this and then they start thinking well I
feel it it's really painful for me so
why would I put myself in those
situations I'm just not built for those
situations um and so that's the problem
with it is there's no end to it because
you can just go on there and then it
becomes part of who you are and again as
you said the second you go out and you
feel intense anxiety as you do as a
14-year-old in like any situation then
you'll think oh yeah this is
confirmation that I have social anxiety
disorder and shouldn't be here um so
yeah I always just think of these things
as like me at 13 and the worst things
you could say to me and social anxiety
disorder is one of them it's
like I kind of needed people to kind of
laugh it off and just say well you have
to go anyway that that's what I needed
like if someone came to me and said well
some people call it a disorder and they
take medication for it and some people
need that I'd be like well I need that
it's kind of like the mental health
psychological Health equivalent of the
misdiagnosis of gender dysphoria among
young kids
yeah yeah that it
it's it's like
um seeing the symptoms as seeing your
personality traits as symptoms which
happens with the gender dysphoria stuff
as well which is like now just like
quirky edgy things about people become
their personality yeah that becomes a
diagnosis so like
before we'd be like talk about some guy
and be like he's always late it's just
something about him you know it's kind
of lovable and annoying but it's his
personality and now it's like oh because
of his ADHD he's always
late yeah that's so funny that's really
interesting to hear to hear the language
I mean even even we do it we do it
around here you know there'll be for
instance does this can have it on yes it
does can you punch in on this dude can
you punch in all right so I'm not sure
how tight that lens can get uh if you
look very very very carefully here
there's a follow us this I'm for the
people listening I'm pointing to the
back of a can of newtonic we've produced
maybe a million of these this particular
version of the can in America follow us
there's the three social icons and then
there's new tonic.com at the bottom if
you look really really carefully just
here you'll see that the Instagram icon
is probably one one mil to one and a
half mil to the left of the followers
and the left of the neonic
docomo mil in from the US um on after
the follow uh I noticed that because I
noticed
things and sent a photo and immediately
immediately after sending that photo him
said the tism strikes again never mean
diagnosed with autism don't think I've
got it hold eye contact with most people
perfectly well even within that there's
something
it's self-deprecating it's mockery it's
whatever but even in that it belies this
like somebody made the joke about uh
Elon musk's Department of governmental
efficiency was less Avengers Assemble
and more Aspergers assemble um yeah so
like even on the guy side of things you
know OCD oh I'm I'm obsessive yeah about
this sort of stuff uh it's it's my like
you know I I mean I am writing this book
at the moment and one of the chapters is
about uh these kind of Tik toks that
girls are looking at about autism and I
literally went down a rabbit hole like
I'm autistic I'm
phly well like all of the symptoms
they're all about shy nerdy girls and
I'm like oh okay this has been me my
whole life just kind of awkward and
didn't fit in and reads a lot and
everything and and I'm like oh God
reading this if you're just like
slightly different from the mainstream
popular extroverted girl you're going to
be
autistic and and it but it's such it's
like it's funny but it's also like oh my
God there's like I can't say a serious
point cuz you're laughing me why is
autism it's like it's it just always
makes me laugh I think it's kind of
charming it's definitely autism holds
like a very unique in the mental
pathology library that we can all take
it's the one that I think is sort of
easiest to throw I see maybe it's
because the autistic people like aren't
registering it but I it's the the lowest
amount of offense seems to be taken by
people misdiagnosing that in some way
and maybe that's because autism in many
ways is a disadvantage for people but
also bestows uh some of what some people
would consider as advantages to yeah and
I I autistic people I've met do kind of
openly joke about it I feel um whereas I
feel like OCD is more offensive to say
oh that was me being OCD I feel like
that's become a bit yeah it's my
suicidal ideation yeah um but yeah it's
funny but it's also like you think of
like a 13-year old girl who really
convinces herself she has autism and
actually she's just quite unique and
quirky um that can be like a lifelong
sentence of thinking you're different
from other people because you're unwell
um a much more pernicious one maybe
would be something which is less serious
of a diagnosis and that everybody
believes that they have which would be
an attachment style thing yes because
it's such
a it's such a defining characteristic of
how you relate to other people the most
important things that you do and to be
able to write off every time that it
comes in Ah that's my avoidant
attachment again Ah that's trigger and
to kind of ignore your gut instinct like
I feel like you can be in a bad
relationship and you have a feeling
about someone um and now you interpret
that as as my anxiety coming up that's
like my attachment disorder triggering
rather than oh they've just said
something or revealed something about
themselves that I should be I'm actually
tuning
into the worry is like young girls
convince themselves they have a disorder
and then shut down that instinct I
suppose also
it denies you the opportunity
to it it stops you from having the
opportunity to deny yourself from being
at the mercy of that thing yeah that you
say that's uh a pattern that keeps
coming up in me I don't like it and I
want to get rid of it yes well it's a
part of me it is me it defines me as a
person yeah I I hate this phrase like
I'm anxiously attached rather than like
I'm feeling anxiety at the moment um and
and also you see on like on the internet
like anxious attachment quizzes and like
t-shirts and like it's become a Jes
Christ a thing to identify yeah and it's
also a community like an online
community of people who all again co-
ruminate over it um but I think it's
actually more dangerous than we think if
you take it too far because you again
you just become blind to what's actually
happening in your life and you're kind
of living by a theory and also blind to
how you can be complicit in causing
these things to happen uh how you could
have self-authorship over stopping these
things from happening yes yeah well if
someone's behaving badly and all you're
doing is like repeating your positive
affirmations in the
mirror it's not going to help you like
at some point you need to have the kind
of confidence to stand up to people and
you're not going to have that if if your
like core belief is that you're an
anxious damaged person 73% of Boomer
males said no matter what psychological
challenges I face I will not let them
Define me 72% of jenzy females say
mental illness is an important part of
my identity yeah bit of an arc I mean
that's just tragic um but I think I
again I can't really blame young girls
for that I just think it's everywhere
now and as Constantin says like if the
incentives are there it's just going to
happen and there are incentives now to
do that um it's almost like now you know
we were saying before like if you're
English and you talk about something
good happening in your life um people
kind of judge you and think you're weird
it's kind of become like if you go
around saying actually have really good
mental health and I deal with things
really well and I don't get anxious
people look at you like um that's kind
of a wrong thing to say like you I think
if you were a girl saying that in school
people would not relate to you as much
so you're just in denial yeah or like
it's kind of a a braggy way to be now to
say oh I handled it fine good for you
yeah
to well done yeah yeah those of us that
have you know grew up with parents that
caused us to have anxious attachment try
be Autistic or something that's actually
a solution I think that more people
should be autistic and that would fix a
lot of problems that we're facing uh
yeah I'd mentioned to you before L
Capaldi um there's a great documentary
on Netflix called how I'm feeling now
highly recommend you watch it I think
it's super pertinent to what you're
doing it'd be great for the book too
yeah U so you have this guy who L and
lots of success and the success causes
him
to uh develop a he must have had a
genetic predisposition for Tourette's I
don't know what Tourette can't catch it
don't think so he must have had this
predisposition in the pressure that he
puts on himself and that's coming from
outside too and the story he tells
himself and the rumination uh causes his
mental health to decline to the point
where he's got this sort of tick yeah
and his should is sort of he's always
doing this it's like whole body is
contorting and uh I think maybe it's two
years in a row now at least one year at
Glastonbury he was he stopped singing he
came out on stage began singing and then
halfway through the song was unable to
continue had to get the audience to help
and that happened at a show at the2 I
think uh which is in the documentary and
then they tried to bring this
documentary into land at the end of 202
or 23 or whatever it's like and he took
6 weeks off and started doing yoga and
stopped eating McDonald's and look at
him now it's like and then the updates
since then are sad that uh a guy under
an awful lot of pressure with a
beautiful voice with really really
wonderful stories to tell uh that make
people feel things feeling so much and
being unable to handle it to the point
where the very art form that he was
built to do he's unable to do on stage
so he like backed away from singing as a
result I haven't checked in but the last
I saw was this summer there was some
festival thing I think that he was at
that he had some trouble on stage again
yeah I mean maybe he had a bug or
whatever but it seems unlikely it seems
like it was probably the same challenge
that he's been dealing with since the
documentary and
um yeah that kind of got me thinking
about the mental health thing affecting
everybody all the way up uh you know
there's not really any hiding from it
and the way way that he goes about it
you know he's very self-deprecating but
he does not he's he's relieved when he
gets a diagnosis in the documentary you
know he finally they say turns out I've
got tourettes uh that kind of makes
sense uh and that thing I was having um
where my heart rate went really high and
I kept on breathing it's like that
apparently that's called a panic attack
it's like ha that's a person finding a
diagnosis not identifying with a
diagnosis well that's kind of another
problem with the therapy stuff is it's
well one it's kind of a offensive to
people like that because I mean there
are literally young women um mimicking
tick ticks from Tourette's tick Tok um
and whether that's Tick Tick Tock yeah I
think there is actually a tick tock
hashtag um but yeah they're they're
picking up tourettes and you know
whether that's conscious or not um some
of them at least are kind of jumping on
that
identity um and then you hear someone
like Lis Cap's story and it's like the
pain of that is actually stopping him
doing what he
loves um but that conversation is kind
of being swallowed up by the
conversation of like young girls
identifying with Tourette's like people
are [ __ ] laughing with this on face
to camera videos yeah again it actually
takes away the language to talk about
people who are actually suffering um
because it's just become so big now that
everyone's autistic everyone's got trets
and I can every time can't not laugh at
it uh is there a new story about why
people are so addicted to social media
is there any more that you've come to
think about yeah well I when I started
writing I was writing about addiction to
social media and Trends and stuff and
kind of um wondering why that was
happening and then I've been trying to
kind of trace it back to think um what
is the actual need that's not being met
here so one of them um I was looking at
all this attachment Style stuff and like
the dating gurus how popular like
relationship advice is on Tik Tok and
stuff um and I was thinking is this
because young people don't have adults
giving them guidance about relationships
so now they go and watch an influencer
who's in attachment expert um because
parents and families aren't getting as
involved in giving advice about
relationships um so things like that
there's a lot of Trends where I think
you can trace it back to adults have St
Ste away from giving some form of
guidance um so you see it with like
relationship stuff on Tik Tok and also
the desperate search for obviously
community and belonging to something is
coming from a real pain of not having
any community in real life like I had
loads of people when I started writing
about social media loads of people would
say to me oh but you know young people
need social media because it's like a
Lifeline like they have their online
communities and stuff and I'm like that
is not a benefit of social media like
that's just an absolute indictment of
where we are in Modern Life like why is
their Community a Reddit form um so we
can talk about social media addiction
but I think you have to kind of strip it
back to
what why young people are so obsessed
with it and what is missing in their
actual life what is everyone searching
for or missing yeah because when you
meet people who aren't on social media
or don't have like ridiculously high
screed times um they usually have a lot
of their needs met in the real world
which just sounds like an obvious thing
to say but it's true and I think the
more you find yourself in a fulfilling
relationship or you're happy with your
job you don't feel as much as a of a
pull to scroll endlessly through Tik Tok
all day um so the fact that young people
are spending like six hours a day on
their phones
is is not just because social media is
addictive it's because there's nothing
more addictive in their life or like a
reason to stop rolling through it um and
so I think sometimes I can get caught in
the Trap of like complaining about
social media whereas social media is
just filling the gap of whatever was
stripped away
before yeah it's not necessarily that
there's even nothing more addicting
there's nothing more compelling yeah
what else what else is there that's as
fun to do that's that uh offers
everybody the same uh yeah I mean you
know I left my old Life Of Night Life
three years ago is and um that kind of
felt a little bit like exiting Bitcoin
at 100K or something and being like why
that was kind of selling at the top
because there's some crazy stat about
how by
20 36 there'll be no nightclubs left in
the UK n yeah so the I think it's one a
one a day or one a week or something is
closing at the moment wow across the UK
just
that night clubs are not only competing
with brunch and with restaurants and
with Lane seven and with Top Flight
darts and with those ball pit [ __ ]
places where people get to take selfies
it's not just competing with other
inperson events and other community
based events pickle ball or whatever
it's competing with Netflix Amazon Prime
is it because everyone's autistic and no
one's going clubing the answer to every
question is either it's only one of two
things too much or too little autism and
I vote that it's too little and we need
more but yes I think um you you must
have seen this trend the other day this
like uh like slug life thing where
people just want they I'm not going out
I don't want to do anything uh it was a
huge substack article that oh there was
one about yeah like rotting in beds yes
that was it yeah yeah
um yeah like I think it was about being
a loser and how it's like an English
thing again being a loser has become the
way that you introduce yourself and talk
about yourself oh I don't have a life
like yeah I don't go anywhere I don't
have I don't have any interests no no I
like Netflix yeah I don't boyfriend no
no no no not for me no yeah I want I
would ruin my 7 p.m. bedtime I don't
know where that's come from but I
think I think it's probably social
anxiety and then people come up with all
of these kind of romantic ways to talk
about it so they're like oh I'm just an
introvert who enjoys my own time or I'm
like working on this big thing so I
can't go out clubbing and stuff and they
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guess even relationships have been
infected by social media the boyfriends
of Instagram trend has been around for a
while but uh has Maybe escalated well
have you seen like I read an article the
other day maybe I want to kill myself it
was about it was about like soft
launching your boyfriend on Instagram
please tell me more so it's about
telling girl so this young woman
wondering how should you announce to
your followers like not influencers like
I'm talking ordinary young women how
should you announce your boyfriend
should you do a soft launch where it's
just like his arm or should you do like
a full
reveal like but it's kind of messed up
because it's like this is like
introducing a brand deal or
something um like literally viewing our
partners like
products like yeah how do we how does
this play in the Optics of public life
someone said to me the other day or they
commented on my subst article like a
relationship is now just a brand
collaboration like two personal Brands
coming together wow that's good and then
posting it online that's really good
yeah soft launching well I've I've seen
people talk about the hard launch which
is just a couple photo that happens out
of nowhere yeah well so you have all of
that you have like how do you manage the
relationship on social media but then
you also have how social media affects
the relationship so like the boyfriends
of Instagram thing like it's kind of
funny that boyfriends you know when you
see like a guy literally on the floor
trying to get a good angle of the
girlriend there was a I went to Gilly te
in uh Bali it's one of these little
Islands about 5 years
ago and there's a famous Beach Club
that's got a swing sort of out in the
water and it's gorgeous the sunsets
because it's so close to the equator the
sunsets in the summer at 6:30 p.m. and
in the winter at 600 p.m. 12 hours of
daylight and it just [ __ ] wobbles a
little bit like that MH and
this this girl wanted to get a photo of
her on the swing but she wanted to catch
the sort of sun bouncing off the top of
the water and I remember
like watching this guy and she was
saying no no no you need to get lower
you need to like get sort of lower down
closer to the water this dude's sort of
chest shoulder to neck to F and by this
time it's C it's the C so it's not being
gentle with him so he's like trying to
take this photo the phone's out of the
water he's getting splashed I remember
thinking like that really better be
wifey because that's a big ask well also
I I just always think who is it for if
your boyfriend is right there like it it
does get to the point where you're like
posing in a bikini and your boyfriend's
taking the pictures of you it's like is
this for Instagram because I I don't
know it just it's it's such a strange
thing that's become so normalized it's a
little bit of an indicator I mean unless
this is
your new album cover or whatever for
your PO slam poetry or some [ __ ] that
you do M there is a little bit of like
surely the person that you're trying to
impress the most is yeah the one that's
taking the photo so what does the photo
need to be taken forless it's for
private collection but it's it's become
so normalized that like when I wrote
about boyfriends of Instagram people
were replying like oh but you know I'm
trying to get memories and stuff uh and
like I had a picture he's not in it yeah
there was a picture of like three girls
in bikinis and three guys all on the
same Beach all taking pictures of their
girlfriend and people were defending it
like oh they're allowed to have memories
like what a memory of you in a
bikini like but I actually I don't think
they're lying I think that's just how
normalized it's become it's like well
obviously if you go to the beach you do
a photo shoot um and I always try and
express that to people like you think of
an influencer and how her income depends
on taking pictures and everywhere she
goes she has to get content um ordinary
women think like that now most people
have it in the back of their mind I
should be getting a social media picture
or this is a good moment or this
landscape would get really good clicks
like that's how they think um and I I
don't think some older people realize
that
young girls are behaving and thinking
like their
influences all the time is that an
aspirational thing is that just that the
power users of Instagram and Tik Tok
behave like that because it's their job
which means that the people who are not
they they have none of the same
obligations feel like they should behave
in the same way or is there something
more going on is this aspirational is
this that people hope maybe I get picked
up by a modeling agency I think a part
of it is that but I think another part
is it they started doing this when their
brains were forming as young girl they
started capturing their life as they
went and they I don't think they can
conceive of just living and existing I
really think it's that ingrained of like
their entire childhood was having a
childh childhood but also performing and
marketing and managing it all at the
same time um and then like when you try
and get out of it like when I deleted
Instagram years ago uh that lingering
was still in my head of like maybe I
share this online or maybe this could be
good photo opportunity and it's it's
really hard to not to kind of unwire
that and now if I go to an event and I
don't take a picture young women I'm
friends with will be kind of confused
like I say I've been on holiday and I
have no evidence of it it's confusing to
them because that suspicious about
whether or not you actually went on the
holiday it's kind of weird um and I
think there are genuinely young people
who go on holiday to get pictures for
photos who even get in relationship
ships for the photos and who are quietly
living their life for
Instagram in ways that people don't
realize has become that
intense what do you make of the
contribution of family breakdown to this
of that you mentioned before about that
sort of lack of guidance people looking
for a little bit of guidance um maybe
filling the void with entertainment that
typically would have been taken up by
family what what role does family
breakdown have here I think it's linked
to what I was saying about yeah looking
for relationship guidance it's like um
well you look at something like mental
health Tik Tok um people are sharing
like their really deep trauma and
turmoil and problems um and you can't
help but look at it and think are you
close to your family like this is the
kind of thing that you talk about with
your family it's what your family is
there for and now you're telling
strangers on Tik Tok um and then you
look at the statistics of the amount of
gen Z who aren't living with both their
mother and father I think it's I think
in the UK it's over half of children by
14 don't live with their mom and dad um
and so they don't have a feeling of
belonging at
home and then you stretch that out to
they don't have any sense of community
their Community is a Reddit Forum or
Instagram like I growing up had no sense
of what a local community is or like
neighbors knowing each other it's just
is really foreign to me and I think a
lot of gen Z they don't have a
conception of it Beyond like an online
community or like the LGBT community or
something that is the limit of community
they know so their family falls apart
there's nothing really to catch them
there's no neighborhood of adults who
are
there um then you add that they're
becoming less religious they don't feel
that they belong to anything bigger than
that they have no faith in anything
bigger um and so the feeling of
loneliness is just so intense um and I
was writing recently about how I think
that actually one of the biggest drivers
of behavior we see among genz is this
abandonment fear and
feeling um because their families fell
apart because they don't have Community
because they don't belong to anything
bigger um they feel constantly alone and
if you look at the kind of symptoms of
Abandonment if you look at like
attachment Theory like real attachment
Theory not the Tik toks but the like
Mary answorth studies and everything um
it shows like people who are abandoned
they're really hypers sensitive to
criticism they have very low body image
and
self-esteem um all of the kind of
caricature of genzi all of the traits
are like to do with this feeling of not
belonging
anywhere um so not not to say that it
explains everything but I think families
breaking down and not having a sense of
belonging
really messes people up and I think a
lot of gen are kind of carrying that
around and then looking for it in places
so they obviously they're going to spend
hours on Tik Tok where people are
talking to them and talking about their
problems because they don't have
anything resembling that in real life um
and so yeah I think a lot of the things
we kind of laugh at young people for as
being kind of narcissistic and um I
guess selfish and kind of we cringe at
them having these crazy screen times
it's like what else is there yeah is
there a lack of moral direction or adult
guidance or something yeah I think um I
think in the modern world like adults
they view everything as like imposing on
their
children so we we kind of became
suspicious of anyone who's authoritative
so we think they're being controlling or
like oldfashioned so adults kind of
politely stepped back and kind of allow
children just to become themselves and
act the way they want and sounds
virtuous yeah and you know there's
obviously an element of that that's
important in parenting um but I think
what happened is parents stepped back so
they just became like our best
friends um then religion retreated away
from public life then communities broke
down um neighbors stopped knowing each
other and then if you're an anxious
young person uh there's no one that
there
and we got rid of anything that was like
more substantial guidance so I think if
you think of therapy culture today a lot
of people think oh if you're an anxious
young person you have more advice than
ever like you have all this guidance but
I actually think modern culture has very
little to say to anxious young people
because we got rid of anything more
substantial because we thought it was
judgmental so you can't tell someone how
to live their life or what to do uh we
got rid of anything to do with God or
religion because that was superstitious
we stopped appealing to moral character
and telling them they should improve
themselves and be better because that's
also judgmental and you know claiming
that there's a right and wrong and all
that we have left is like these endless
empty like platitudes of be yourself you
do you you know best you know adults
telling that to young people
who I think are craving some Direction
like there's no clear Milestones to add
hood anymore to follow and so they look
to the adults and the adults are saying
you know best um and of course you feel
anxious the the anxiety gets
worse that lack of guidance is I don't
know I I the the equivalent for the guys
is pick your favorite podcaster or
YouTuber or Fitness bodybuilder of
choice and looking up to that okay well
it's the missing patriarch that I yeah
didn't have or didn't have a long enough
or didn't understand this world and I'm
going to surrogate the that to this
parasocial online relationship but then
it becomes someone who doesn't know you
so let's say you have a relationship
problem like you're a young woman who
has met someone um and you're not sure
about him the average young woman will
now go on YouTube and turn to the dating
experts and the attachment style yeah
and get the guidance from experts
because they don't have adults in their
lives who know them intimately you know
because people are different like people
need different advice in different
situations and I think it's a real shame
that adults who kind of intimately know
girls and young women and can give them
advice in like a community setting have
stepped
back and now of course they're all on
Tik Tok asking each other like oh you
know he cheated on me is this a problem
because we weren't exclusive is that a
red flag is it and it's like we need
some adults in Our Lives who Clearly say
I think this person's bad for you um and
suppose yeah everything it's great that
we have instant frictionless access to
all information from experts that maybe
even more expert than our parents would
be ever and trained and all the rest of
it even if they're legitimate and
obviously there's a lot of room for
illegitimate yes experts to sneak
in but it is still self- diagnosis and
it is still self- treatment from that
you know if you're learning from Tik Tok
there is no part of hey why don't we why
don't we sit down why don't we yeah I'll
I will give you something as opposed to
you will learn from this thing and then
go and have to work out what that means
and apply it and not be able to ask
questions and not be able to regulate
with
anybody and not have it contextualized
even remotely yeah and your mom isn't
trying to get views on Tik Tok so she
doesn't need to speak for your mom
doesn't need to exaggerate and kind of
keep you looking at her Channel um you
know I I think that's the problem is
there are genuine experts who can help
but they are also subject to the kind of
pressures of the algorithm a lot of the
time and so they're kind
of I guess dumbing down what they're
saying or make or presenting symptoms of
autism as as vague as possible to try
and uh so as many girls relate to it as
possible you had this breakdown uh one
of the main causes of unhappiness in the
modern world is a culture that presents
other people as obstacles heal faster
alone work better alone find Freedom
alone it's such a lie loneliness is not
empowerment is loneliness uh
pedestalize Tik Tok yeah I think again
from all different angles so it's like
the mental health stuff
obviously you will feel better alone in
some ways because someone you don't have
someone challenging you you know if you
do actually have problems from your
childhood um to do with say your parents
I don't want to say an attachment
problem but it is an attachment problem
just the wording has been completely
ruined but if you do have that you kind
of need to be with someone to work on it
because if you're single you're going to
feel great because there's no one kind
of triggering you and making you feel
anxious and
abandoned um so you do need someone in
your life in in that
scenario um so yeah loneliness then does
seem like it's extremely attractive
because you feel better when you're
alone the same with the productivity
stuff I think it's just the message
that's missing for both young women and
young men is like it's actually okay to
depend on someone and to need other
people like humans have always needed
other people and Define themselves
by their ties and obligations to other
people and now we're kind of like no you
can you can be self-sufficient enough
and driven enough and healed enough that
you're okay
alone and I think that's really quite a
strong message for young young women
here which is like the worst thing you
can be is needy like do not ever need
someone and and the worst situation for
you is to end up with a guy that you
need like that's just you need to avoid
that all costs and it's it's a really
sad message because it's like is that
not love to need someone and they need
you and it's kind of a beautiful thing
um to rely on someone and have someone
who's dependent on you and actually a
lot of the actual attachment research
shows that have you heard of like the
dependency Paradox tell me um that
couples who are more dependent on each
other become more independent in their
lives so there was like studies showing
that um I think they got couples to
do like games or puzzles and then they
had to fill out a survey of you know how
much do you respond to your partner's
needs um basically how dependent are you
on each other and the ones that were
more
dependent didn't want to hear like I
think it was the clues or the answers
from their partner they wanted to do it
independently and then they followed up
and they found that the the couples more
dependent on each other had met their
independent goals six months down the
line why do you think that is what's the
proposed mechanism because it's it's
like the original Mary answorth
experiments where the caregiver leaves
and kind of measure how the child
responds you need like a stable secure
relationship to feel confident to go and
explore the world you need to have like
something to hold on to to step off um
chaos in both domains is scary yeah you
you need like something to fall back on
and I think that's a big reason why Chen
Z are incredibly uh risk averse and not
resilient is because we don't actually
have a foundation to fall back on so if
your parents are
divorced um and you don't feel that
sense of belonging you're not going to
step off into the chaos of the world
you're going to hold back and you're
going to find relationships threatening
you're going to find words traumatic
you're going to be scared by it
because the ground is like crumbling
beneath you so you can't step off it um
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what have you learned it seems like
you've done a good bit of work on the
attachment stuff at least in terms of
research what have you learned about
what's uh real and what's bunk from that
well I think I think it's real that
obviously your childhood impacts your
adult life I think that's just plain to
see
um and I think it's real that you can
kind of play out in relationships that
aren't to you know so you however your
parents responded to you you'll then
take that into an adult relationship
that seems very obvious but I think
where people go wrong now is they forget
that like in the original um attachment
uh experiments and and the book attached
it's quite clear that it's it's not a
bad thing to depend on someone and it's
it's not a bad thing to be attached like
we are wired to be that way whereas I
think now where it's going online is
like um you have a problem if you're
attached like if you if you're a young
woman who kind of dreams of having a
romantic relationship and really wants
to depend on someone now we view you as
like weak that there's something wrong
with you if that's your ultimate goal
because we've had it drilled in so much
that dependence is a problem um and so
you see all these people online saying
things like oh you know I'm anxiously
attached because when my partner feels
sad I also feel sad it's like isn't that
just like loving someone you know you
are affected by their emotions or
they'll say things again like oh um I
always put their needs first so can you
train me out of being like a people
pleaser and it's like we used to just
call that love and you know that was a
trait that we treasured in people people
who put their partner's needs first and
obviously that can go too far but I
think the problem is now we only
pathologize
dependence and we glamorize
Independence and we never say yeah that
being dependent on someone having a
long-term relationship doesn't mean that
you lose yourself you can actually find
yourself through that um but I think
girls in particular young women in
particular have just been told yeah the
worst thing in your life is to need
someone to jenz have a lot of
abandonment issues in that way yeah I
think I think that's where it comes from
and that's why it's especially tragic
because you have a lot of young women
for example whose families fell apart
and then they grew up thinking well I
just want to have that myself I want to
have a loving relationship and a
family and then they kind of get told
whether it's through therapy culture or
some of the feminist stuff online you
kind of implicitly get
told um that's a problem like if you
again if your dream is to depend on
someone you should work on yourself you
need to work on your self-love you need
to believe in yourself more you need to
be healed alone and um you think of like
a normal thinking feeling young girl of
course she wants to be in a romantic
relationship and of course she wants to
depend on someone in some way it's
completely
natural um but I think you have young
women thinking oh I need to get to a
position where I'm confident completely
confident alone I'm Healed alone I don't
have any anxiety um then I can allow a
partner in but I don't see that as the
way that people operate um and I think
there's a lot of girls now punishing
themselves for being emotional and
sensitive and wanting a partner and and
wanting to depend on
someone because now the the image of a
strong independent woman is is someone
who doesn't depend on anyone and who
doesn't get emotional doesn't get
jealous doesn't care and so you you also
have two contradictory messages because
you have therapy culture saying to girls
open up more and more about your
problems you know be more emotional um
tell everyone how you feel but then you
also have strong independent women don't
care you know they never get emotional
and if they do get an emotional it's
trauma or an attachment issue and it's
like that's a really cruel thing to
teach emotional young girls and
confusing because it's
like of course they feel that way
because they're human but now they're
being told that that's yeah a medical
issue or something that they should heal
I saw you tweet kids as young as nine
are addicted to porn girls as young as
13 are using fake IDs to post explicit
content on only fans a third of those
selling Nudes on Twitter are under the
age of 18 yeah can you unpack that
please well I think that's again a lack
of adults um stepping in um I have this
Theory I've been thinking about of like
everyone just accepts now that that
parents are overprotective so there's
like the helicopter parenting and the
coddling
of but I think like parents are weirdly
they're not protective enough but
they're also codling so they're like
coddle their children but not put up
proper boundaries or guard there's like
no rules um but they're over involved
overbearing in all the wrong areas and
totally absent in all of the wrong ones
as well so now it's like the only danger
is like physical Danger
it's injury so parents protect from
injury but they don't protect from
something
like their daughters being online and
posting try trying to get on only fans I
mean Jonathan height talks about it when
he says kids are overprotective in the
real world and
internalize this messaging of I
shouldn't get involved you know it's not
my place you know you think of dads now
I think dads are less protective than
they've ever been because they they
can't care about what their daughter
wears or where she goes or who she dates
because that would be backward you know
it's her right to do
that but then you look around and you
see girls doing that you see um girls
like selling themselves online to
strangers and I think what
accidentally happened is feminism pushed
this idea of like girls and boys are
just as strong as each
other and then that led to people
thinking Al so they don't need girls
don't need extra
protection which killed chivalry but
also killed fathers actually protecting
girls um because the problem is not like
women are weak it's that girls are
vulnerable but now we think oh we should
all step back let girls do what they
want um a lot of baby went out with B
Ward yeah and now you see lot of
chivalry went out with patriarchy yeah
well we we killed good authority we just
killed all authority and so now you have
young women like demanding that their
universities protect them and demanding
that the government step in and like
staring at someone becomes a harassment
on the tube because they don't have we
degraded the authority of men they
trust like good men and hopefully like
their fathers and brothers um we just
said oh all kind of protection is
patronizing and we don't need it but
then you leave girls completely
vulnerable and looking coddled and loved
but actually completely unprotected
there was a great tweet I saw about um
telling men telling all men to stop
being so pushy doesn't work because the
men who don't need to hear it will take
it to heart and the ones who do need to
hear it aren't going to listen yeah
yeah I mean I I can't remember where it
was but there was this like scheme um
some young women ran on a train where
they had these cards I don't know if you
saw it where it said like it said like
I'm being harassed right now where you
hand it to someone and so you could go
into I think it was like the tube
station you could go in and ask for the
cards and yeah it's like someone ising
me yeah there was all different ones I
can't remember what they were but it's
like in that situation what is that
going to do and it's that is actually
the patronizing thing um and to expect
that to protect
girls but we find it offensive if a man
steps forward and tries to help a girl
out I think it's we've yeah we've just
thrown it all out and forgotten that the
part of the feminist message is right
that girls are
vulnerable um but unfortunately it's
just led to a situation where we're like
oh vulnerability means weakness so they
don't need protecting why are girls
under as young as 13 using fake IDs to
they do people want money is there a
status thing associated with this yeah I
think it's the status thing I
think girls are now growing up with
influencers being their aspirational
figures as we said um I think it's
something like 70% of genz girls aspire
to be influencers or just genen Z in
general thought you're going to say only
fans no okay um but if you look at
influences over the years they've
evolved dramatically so like when I was
13 I would be watching like Zoella or
someone who's really wholesome and
didn't really have the same incentives
of the algorithms back in the day didn't
really have the same competition
certainly didn't have like monetization
of her content um so she wasn't kind of
exposing herself or talking about these
weird therapy friends or anything like
that you can just gradually see over the
years how it's escalated who are some of
the more
extreme Zoella equivalents now or if you
don't want to throw names out you can
come up with I can throw a name yeah the
woman Tana
monjo mjo yeah so she's like a really
popular influencer
who talks about only fans like
it's like like there's nothing dangerous
about it for young girls or nothing to
be worried about and she'll she has an
audience of very young teens probably
pre-teens and she'll just post with all
the things she's earned from only fans
so all of like the designer bags and
stuff um on her podast she'll talk about
being on only fans
and um I think talking about
commodifying yourself like it's
completely
normal that is what girls are growing up
with so they're seeing influencers
commodify themselves in general but then
commodifying their
body um and also having the nerve to
call that empowering um you don't think
it's empowering no well how can it be
empowering to even on Instagram offer
your body for judgment and then put your
self worth into the ranks and reviews
that Stranges give you you're turning
yourself into a product effectively so
this talk of objectifying young women
you know that is turning yourself into
an object on
display um which I think is quite clear
to anyone who's not grown up with it but
I I don't judge the
ordinary young woman for thinking that's
attractive because that has been her
Role Models throughout growing up and
it's escalated slowly so it went from
Zoella to now only fans versus Bonnie
Blue Zoella to Bonnie Blue yeah the Mark
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SL modern wisdom why is it that pretty
much all of the examples of toxic
masculinity from the past uh promiscuity
sexual
entitlement hyper Independence are all
traits that are now regarded
as boss girl yeah feminist power I don't
know I think it might be like a Revenge
thing um I I
think I think young women react to the
very worst traits of some men by
thinking I'll just do it back and that
will give me the power so they're
like uh maybe they've had a string of
relationships where the guy has kind of
slept with them and then left or
something and then they think yeah I'll
just do that to the next guy or um you
know they look at the men doing that and
think well they seem very confident and
happy so that's that's the way to go um
I think it's like a defense mechanism of
some kind and also I think they're
probably also the traits that get you
popularity online so if you look at
tanjo or some of these
influencers uh they are promiscuous
they're quite masculine they're quite
aggressive in their speech because
people who talk assertively and in
Extreme Ways will just suit the
algorithm you know if you're like a
reserved timid young girl you're not
going to be the top influencer on
Instagram so I think those traits get
rewarded and then they're what girls are
scrolling through all day every day and
they're like oh my favorite influencer
is really like vulgar and promiscuous
and she's super assertive path to
success yeah and that's again that's the
model of like the healed confident woman
who's not held back by negative emotion
or worry or jealousy or any of these
things assertiveness is confused for
self assuredness or wholeness
completeness fixedness well also
promiscuity is
like well I often think now if you're
like a reserved young woman who's modest
you're now shamed maybe not explicitly
but implicitly people will think there's
something wrong with you because they'll
be like oh no you are beautiful you
shouldn't be so like shy about guys you
know you shouldn't worry about sex you
know it's fine like people will reassure
her
now as to like that look at her as if
she has a problem that needs healing
rather than she just is modest um and I
think that's what tends to happen is you
look at promiscuity becomes so popular
and
normalized and then we stigmatize the
girls that aren't interested in that or
aren't that way um so yeah I think if I
think if you are a young woman now who's
who holds back in that way it's kind of
like if you're introverted and people
come up to you and say what's wrong you
should speak more and it's just like
sometimes it's just who you are um so I
think it's the incentives again you're
almost punished socially if you're
modest and shy and and not super
assertive and masculine because people
think you've got your like healing work
to do you need to become more confident
and like sexual and like get rid of all
your reservations and like repression
people think you're just like a
repressed person rather than everybody
should be tanim Mojo whatever she called
like she's she's like released herself
of all her kind of traumas and burdens
everybody is Tanner at zero yes and you
just need to try and get back there
yeah is there a wistfulness for times of
the past there sort of nostalgia for a
better time I don't know when it was
maybe before you were born maybe when
your parents were around or something
yeah or I don't
know slightly older generation
would have that kind of wistfulness
American Dream Etc yeah what do jenzi
think of the current moment do they
think that it's liberating because it
seems like there's two things going on
at once that life is horrible and
terrible and I have anxious attachment
and maybe autism yeah and
also I'm fully liberated to be myself I
can be whatever I want to be I can go
boss my way through promiscuity and sell
my body on only fans and make loads of
money and I don't need no man yeah so
which one is it I know there's like in
anxxiety among young women but also this
really loud I don't care message um I
think I think young people in general
are very nostalgic for a
time they they haven't known which is a
time before smartphones and social media
so if you look at like Jonathan height
again he did a survey recently and found
that a lot of jenzy wish things like Tik
Tok and Instagram never existed which is
kind of unusual you don't really get
that with any other ventions like he was
talking about the bike and like um the
hair dryer like it's really not that
level of I'm I use this all the time and
wish that I
didn't um and I think there's a lot of
that ambient feeling among j z of like
longing for a time for example When Love
wasn't like reacting to someone's
Instagram story or swiping on Tinder um
you know some young women have never
experienced love before it became that
uh like the mystery of having a crush on
someone and falling in love like now you
just you can't wonder what they're up to
you just kind of skip through their
Instagram story or look at their
Facebook profile and it's all listed out
there so I think there's a real feeling
of like disenchantment with the modern
world where it's like everything has
become so
commodified and cheap and there's like a
Nostalgia for a time maybe that didn't
exist but everyone tells me the '90s
were way better so I'm just going to
assume they're telling the truth but a
time before phones and the internet and
the commodification of everything became
so
extreme um because now everything I I
try and explain to people like the very
concept of things has changed so
friendship for my generation versus
friendship for my parents generation
friendship now is like your friends
online you maybe have a snap streak that
you keep up you pose for each other's
Instagram uh you don't really
necessarily hang out as much as you used
to there's not really again friends
don't give each other guidance or tell
each other what to do because that would
be rude and toxic um and so the the
definition of friendship has changed in
this herea the definition of Love Has
Changed of flirting
everything um
which is why like you can talk about
kids being on screens and it's kind of
sad but like the actual truth of what's
changed is insane and the fact that
young people are anxious and can't cope
with it is not because they have a
disorder it's because they're the first
to try and feel their way through a
completely different world yeah with no
rules or strategies or archetypes or
stories with a generation that can't
relate doesn't relate you've just them
how to use the iPad yeah what are they
going to be able to teach you about how
to handle this yeah and that's kind of
why you can't blame them for not giving
guidance because the world moves so fast
there's no such there's no wisdom
anymore you you can't pass anything down
so now you just have to keep up with the
kids it's irrelevant as soon as it
leaves your Labs yeah and I know you
have adults like talking like teenagers
and using the same social media
platforms being informed of the new
trends which has always been a thing but
now now it feels like adults go to young
people to get guidance about the world
um and that makes young people anxious
because they're like where are the
adults telling you what to do that's a
very good question Freya India ladies
and gentlemen Freya I love everything
that you're writing it's really great to
see you go from strength to strength I
think it's really important stuff where
should people go they want to check out
everything that you do my substack is
just fre india. co.uk uh it's called
girls and yeah that's just where about
girls and young women and hopefully I'll
have a book announcement soon exciting
cool I look forward to it thank you
until next time bye thank you thank you
very much for tuning in M tasty
interesting conversation with Freya
there how about Lise Perry also here
also very tasty also very
interesting dig in come on