Become Unstoppable: The Man Behind The World's Top Performers - Dr Steve Peters

your first conception the most famous conception that you had originally uh publicly at least uh was the chimp Paradox if if people aren't familiar with the chimp model how do you introduce them to that I'll try and keep this thing to put I'm glad that 30 years now so uh yeah I'm getting old very old uh and I as a young doctor um I suddenly started realizing I was talking to two individuals in therapies where and again I'm making this very black and white uh one of the two individuals I talked to was very rational and Common Sense and would engage me the other was highly emotional and usually very irrational and distorted in the weather perceiving things themselves the world of the people but I could get the one that was irrational to become rational by talking and going through things so that intrigued me that I had two people in the room and some people they were close some people were miles apart so then turn into neuroscience and looking at the brain there are circuit trees in the brain that are just automatic that outside of our control and as a psychiatrist obviously as a doctor I'm learning also the therapeutic background we have as a base so go right back to Freud and you think yeah he was a genius of his time and he recognized the drives and the instincts but what can we see now at the 1990s was the functional Mi scanners came in and now we see actually these parts of the brain they're not just drives and instincts there's an entire system that thinks and interprets and makes these interpretations without permission and makes decisions without permission often based on the drives and instincts so you have this amazing machine that's trying to run our lives at the same time as we're trying to impose our values and the way we want to run it so I was intrigued with this so you mentioned wait at the beginning and I often use that as the best example how many people get up in the morning saying today I'm going to eat healthy the right amount and at the end of the day they say again it hasn't happened you know and they were they were saying why is it that this is happening because it's crazy and then they attributed to willpower whereas the newer science teaches something different it shows that there's an entire system based on Survival which thinks and decides and it's also impulsive and it looks for instant gratification so when you're offered something you like say Donuts or peanuts and you think I've eaten enough this system says no no we've got a little bit more because it doesn't see what's coming so I was intrigued so I spoke to omitted Specialists the great apes I'm I'm very much an animal lover so as part of the great tips the humans are one of the five um what they said to me simplifying it was the looking at the gorilla the orangutan and the bonobo they think their brains operate differently to us but the chimpanzee doesn't it's the same it's the same thinking interpreting emotionally based system so I started looking and I started recognizing watching chimpanzee behave in human there was such similarities however when we turned to rationality and logic we change that behavior and we become very different so what I discovered of sort of light bulb for me I'm sure others have discovered it what what I really for me discovered was you've got this inner chimp system that we've inherited alongside you as a human and we've all got it and depending how strong it is or how we learn to manage it is how often it will present and that became more and more prominent in when I was working with individuals to said you didn't think that that is the chimp system now that got published uh in 2018 to show the chimpanzee and the human have the same kind of thinking systems which separates us from the rest of the Apes um but by then I didn't want to wait that long because I think it was blatantly obvious I know we have to give evidence so I started using it on my medical students I'm at Sheffield medical school and at that point as undergraduate Dean I was working a lot with youngsters between 18 and 23. so I started explaining you do have this chimp system um they loved it they really got this they said I can recognize when I'm in chimp mode when I'm in human mode and they started send teachers there so it became part of what I did with them and we'd talk about what are the drives that are strong in your gym because the chimp brand is unique to the person again so it became an entertaining way of starting to understand what you're sharing your brain with this incredible system which thinks and acts for you with a major backup system so when I started doing this simplified Neuroscience the students were not keen on the newer sides because it was too complex they kept saying make it so it's practical which I wanted to do so they all started giving their chips a name uh and this went on for a good 10 years before I effectively got catapulted into the Limelight with sport uh which was a side track um and then it became public and it just went a bit viral and you know I started meeting people saying they asked me the chimp man I'm proud to say I'm the chip man but I think the key for me was I saw transformation of people who started recognizing the difference between themselves and the Machine so that's why I called it the chimp Paradox and I wrote the chimp Paradox uh probably over about four years trying to refine it I didn't want to get it wrong so I put out when I thought as close I can get it to explain this is your brain and how it works there were I kept being pestered to go into more detail and that's why it took me 10 years to actually think okay do it again so I rewrought effectively and called it a path through the jungle so a path of the Jungle is more with it's got the evidence base the research behind it um I know in America the gym Paradise didn't take off and I know I was criticized because there was no evidence so I thought they're right to say that so I've now given 400 references and I'm pleased to say it was assessed by Cambridge Neuroscience department and they said it's spot on so there is a right upon Kevin's University's website for those who are academically interested to say that they were saying that yeah this is an amazing model and it's very detailed uh to link it to Neuroscience why would it have been useful in our past to have this very reactive uh set up inside of our minds it's still useful now um when we look at I'll talk in terms of the model when you're using the human circuits the transmitter systems and the speed at which they conduct are relatively slow so when we think rationally we think steadily whereas if something dramatic happened where our life is at risk we need to think quickly and act impulsively almost instinctually so the chimp system can do that for us so in a serious emergency it will know what to do so it generally uses fight flight freeze because that's what the amygdala hands to it as part of that system that's running so if you were say with someone who suddenly drew a knife instinctively you'd know what to do you know whereas if you had to think rationally the little split seconds could cost you dear so but you can imagine this in many circumstances where there's an apparent danger we act very instinctively and our machine takes over and it's pretty accurate so it's not that it's a bad system at all and people gave this my inner chimp bit and I'm in one of the elite athletes I once said how do I kill my chimp and I'm thinking you've really not got this because my chimp system is my best friend because as long as I understand what he's trying to tell me what is the ways communicating then I can use that and work as a team and the there's evidence strong research evidence on this that when we use a logical basis to our thinking and an emotional instinctive intuitive basis it works best on their own it don't work as well so I keep saying the chimp's the best friend you've got hence the paradox uh you know but you can make it your worst enemy if you're going to start saying you know I hate myself I hate the fact I ate too much I hate the fact that I lose my temper that's not really very helpful at all the approach is wrong you need to for my opinion you need to be saying if I'm getting annoyed what is this part of my brain trying to tell me you know why is why is this evoking this emotion I mean what can I do to stop this and that's what I started doing with patients back in the 1990s I started applying it in my clinical practice uh and I'm pleased to say I got some amazing results um I don't attribute that to me I don't I think the person is the one who gets the results they get insight and they they worked with me all I can do is help them and catalyze what their understanding is but the people who grasp and understood themselves and the way the machine was working and got the chimp and what I call a computer on board they started saying it's life-changing it's really changed me because what they're doing is saying I'm now in charge of the machine and they're making it run and using it when it kicks a bit to say what is it you're doing and they say this is great and that's what I tried to do I said it's a different approach I know it's a bit a bit out of the box but I wanted it based on Neuroscience because that's my academic background as a as a professor in in Psychiatry I'm Neuroscience based it seems to me that there's broadly two buckets of people that you've worked with you've sort of worked with the human mind at its best and the human mind at its worst as well what is different or are there many fundamentals that are the same for trying to get Chris Hoy to be in Flow State during the Olympics as they are trying to deal with somebody who is highly dysfunctional uh and who doesn't really like the inside of the texture of their own mind do you have different approaches when it comes to that or is it broadly the same physics I said beginning which I know people can get frustrated with me because I do a lot of these like magazines or they tell you might say give us five tips for our viewers or and I can't do that so I often warn people don't ask me because I I can't do that because it does boil down to uniqueness so I can only talk about people I've worked with who've gone public and say please you know use me if you want to so we're going to use I'll use Chris Hoy I mean he's I've known Chris 20 years now and it was an absolute pleasure and privilege to work with me he's a real gentleman so when I met him he was in a great place he's never had any emotional you know disturbances in life of any catastrophic kind so he's a very even balanced very rational man but what Chris said is I believe uh he's insightful that if I work with you you can explain how my mind works and I'll be able to get focus on the track for the event I want to do so why did his work with him and said tell me what your thinking is now what is it you're trying to do with this event what would help what wouldn't and we worked a pattern out how he we plan a mental program for his event so clear that it's purely on what Chris did with me but what I found is his chimp is a gentleman too so the chimpin Chris is so close to Chris that you don't get these outbursts you just don't get them but Chris would always tell me I know the difference so even when he said when I go emotionally based there's a risk so we did a lot of good fun work uh incredibly good I call them students I'm a mentor um great so he's one extreme of a balanced individual who said how do I optimize or get better up while I do whereas probably the most popular person I work with Ronnie O'Sullivan who came to me very dysfunctional and has a really large chimp and Ronnie says tell the world everything I'm not going to do that all I can say is a fantastic guy that I really like and get on with we've worked together now over 10 years and his chips very active Roni himself is subjected to this so he's trying to learn how to manage it so Irani as a human being is very very different to his chimp so I can see even in interviews when Ronnie's answering oh and his chimps answering um and so with him it's more perfecting the skill but I can say that I've worked in 10 years and it's a privilege and he's great fun um that over those 10 years as he approaches the world championships in snooker which is won multiple times um each year he's improved and and that's a really key point for working with people that all of us can get the skill some others are going to pick it up very quickly so I've worked with people who've transformed themselves within weeks months they have light bulb moments but they put a lot of time and effort in whereas other people it's really tough to get the skill you know it's no different to say learning to sing we can all sing but some are brilliant to start with and get even better and some of us struggle uh but we can still improve of it and emotional skills to me are exactly the same you have a starting point I don't know what potential people have until I work with them so I get someone who can start a square one in a really bad place and end up fantastic in a great place I actually saw someone this morning and I've worked with on and off over 10 years and she's in an amazing place now but didn't start there but really worked on it and increased the skill to it's great to say that how should we best understand our emotions okay because I know what you're asking is is great uh however I just say you'll get frustrated with me however it's like saying teach me Italian if I can't speak it and teach me in the next 10 minutes you think where do we start you're very basic stuff so I think the answer for me this is only me to best understand this start going steadily it's not a promotion but it's why I wrote a path to the Jungle because I think it takes you through 27 units so it says start and build up so you learn things gradually you practice them so I give exercises so again one of the early starting points is understanding the difference between you and your your brain working if you can see the difference and you recognize I know who I am now that in itself can lift self-esteem phenomenally because you stop muddling yourself up with a machine that's overpowering you so that concept is not as easy as it sounds to grasp you can get it logically but when you the day you actually get it conceptually you can't go back you suddenly realize I've been hijacked or I'm being sweared by a machine not me and I'm very different to that machine so that's the starting point then you go on I would then go on to emotions and say can we start seeing them differently can we see them as messages that are coming from the chimpa computer system to give you an alert or a question you know so anger for example not every time but anger can be that you've not processed something from the past you need to go back and process it it's still underpinning the way you're approaching the world of people however it may be nothing to do with the past it could be current belief systems that I can't deal with life if it doesn't go away I think it is and that can create anger the next one can be unrealistic expectations of other people or yourself and that can create anger uh it can even be a feeling of rejection so you're going into relationships or meeting anybody every day with the defense position and that will lead to a potential angle which is more of a defense mechanism so you can see anger's just an emotion for me the the emotions not too important the fact you're getting a message is what's important so anger despondency frustration that's what your chimp brain is choosing to use and some of them use the same emotion to alert you and it's non-appropriate emotion so I would start saying let's look at emotions differently and let's understand the differences between them and that's why I spend two units I believe in the path through the jungle to try and say look really at the very early stages let's understand what's happening here before we go on to start perfecting things like values and communication let's understand what our emotions are you mentioned about how self-esteem can become degraded if people are unable to um work through this conflict that's that's going on inside of them why is that or how do you how do you conceptualize just self-esteem as a topic and do you see this uh this tension as one of the most common or one of the common reasons why people's self-esteem can become a little bit eroded I think for me that the main reason people have low self-esteem I'll give the example you give up eating uh we could use it for angle could use it anything is if the person says I'm going to set off today and I know my values all right I'm going to treat people with respect I'm going to remain calm and collect because that's who I am then they're defining themselves and they're saying that's me setting off if they now go out and overeat what they're now saying is not I'm a greedy person or I'm a weak will first that's now so derogatory and causing self-esteem to drop and that's not scientifically accurate that's not accurate what is accurate is to say I've set off with the intention of doing the following and now this system has now impulsively started eating now before we get people's who are listening saying us good excuse It's non-excusable you're still a hundred percent responsible you can't just go that I'm a chimpy too much I don't accept that all right I say oh no no you have to manage the chimp so you can't get angry with someone and blame the chimp it's not a excuse Bloom that's what I say is your job is to say apologize and then say okay this is the difference in esteem I know who I am what I can't do is manage the machine well and all of us struggle with that what I need to do is learn to manage the machine up skill on it and that could take me some time that means you know who you are still and you're not muddling yourself up with a machine and starting to come up with silly interpretations such as I'm an angry person there isn't an angry person unless you really believe that's who I want to be which is nonsensical so I do rebuke people I'll ask when I'm working with they come in and say I got really angry this week and I said no you didn't unless you're telling me that's what you want to be and then they'll say no no I don't want to be angry and I say in other words You've Got Hijacked so let's look at Why You Got Hijacked and let's give you the skill to manage the hijack and calm the chimp down so it is subtle but it's I don't know if you can grasp what I'm saying I'd have made it clear absolutely yeah yeah it's what's what's interesting is this might be the wrong word almost like a depersonalization of you who you are at your core and things that you do the things that you do okay yeah the word is dissociation uh you're dissociating you're saying to yourself this is me and now I've got this chimp machine uh along with a computer that this machine in my head so I'm now going to go forward but if something happens and it provokes that and it overtakes me I'll now present to the world my chimp all right present a mixture of me in the chimp and the ideal for me is to always present yourself to the world but get your chimp and computer as well because they're not bad things you know our chips could bring color to our life so if we have a chip that's got a sense of humor which they do have because our sense of humor is in the chimp system not in the human all right so the chimp will bring us mirth and humor that's why the chimp believes something we say that's why punch lines work and then it realizes that's ridiculous and it causes to laugh so there are actually three different circuits they're being all based in the chimp system so if we didn't have that we probably would be pretty boring yeah because it wouldn't let we wouldn't laugh so you're saying let's get on board but you're the person who says these are my values these are my beliefs uh this is how I want to behave in life and that you set out so I work a lot on that with people and say now we know who you are don't worry if you get hijacked and you presents something different to the world just recognize we've got work to do and we're going to learn that skill and it it will happen you'll always get chimp hijacks tell me if I Rumble too much because I get asked a lot about do you have a chimp and I my chin wrote the books you know it decided to collude with me because I think was tired of telling me uh but as a young man yeah I experienced a lot of anxiety a lot of frustration a lot and I I couldn't work this out but as a psyche I'm thinking well you need to work it out you're the person who's going to be helping people you can't be that it's hypocritical so I can't help myself but then I realized that yeah like everyone else I have a chimp most of the time on how to manage it and it's on board and he's my best friend uh so for me one of the things I do is be sarcastic with it I don't know why my channel finds that funny so if something upsets my chimp system and I experience frustration or whatever I do say to the gym can we just answer the question do you want me to be upset for an hour a week the rest of our lives and for some reason my chimp gives away immediate laughs and things okay it's got get a life get this and we're okay but I've worked that out that that works for me 99 of the time there will be a time when my chimp hijacks me and then I have to say okay I Got Hijacked because I'm no different to anybody else so but I need to learn again which everyone does what are my trigger points so trigger points for me where I know I'm vulnerable to losing this management at the gym would be bullying seeing someone intimidated my chimp comes straight in and so I have to be careful in situations where I say okay I've got it let me do the daily if you don't speak it seems like a real art form to be able to integrate this the the chimp with the human mediated you know in the middle and that chimp human computer relationship seems like a very delicate dance because as you say if it was just um raw rationality and pure cerebral horsepower and cognition all day it would probably remove an awful lot of the color and a lot of the joy as well from the things that we do and it is I think a lot about about finding that balance I've heard you talk about ghost emotions what are those yeah yeah sometimes we learn learn a behavior and it doesn't belong in real time so a simple example is we can get a bad experience of say public speaking now that would evoke most people's chips to start getting anxious so the computer will always come to the rescue if you look at what beliefs and memories you've got so we can tamper with a computer we can't do much with the chimp it's it's the nature of the animal we have to manage it the computer we can tamper with but let's have a bad experience doing public speaking it's very likely I've learned to become anxious so when I stop myself and why are you doing this it's a learned behavior it's a ghost emotion it doesn't belong there and it's not actually what I want to experience or indeed should be experiencing so ghost emotions are something that hang on inappropriately they can be because we haven't processed but it can just be a behavior where you think let's change that behavior so I find a lot of people carry emotions and it's just something they've learned to do so you can desensitize them to situations and and ignore the ghost there's a difference the reason I brought that in is and again this is the devil in the detail some emotions are scars they're not ghosts and it's very important to get the difference between them so when I work with people if you've got a scar say you went through a really bad breakup um most people don't come out on scarred um so you've got some scarring from the relationship breaking or whatever it is um and you can't process it so I keep saying to people sometimes I always try and process it and you can do it maybe the later stage but a bit more process it's a scar and there's a different way of dealing with that so we have to have we we deal with that Not By ignoring it by actually managing it so it can be to talk it through again because that helps us even though we know it won't resolve it it will actually take pressure off so some scars obviously the world I'm in we mentioned sport but I work a lot with your public uh and generally speaking the people I meet are not in a good place so I do work with a small number of parents who've lost their children and that must be excruciating and it is for them and my Approach I know other people might have a different approach um is to say to them it is an emotional scar it's not something you're going to get rid of it's not something you'll ever even come to terms with I think it's something you've got to manage you know and and accept that there will be some terrible days ahead but there'll be some good days but it's that's a scar for me so I don't try and remove it because I don't think you can yeah it's very um it's it's the more detailed that you apply to looking at the inside of your own mind the more that you realize there are very subtle nuances between different things whether that be the ghosts or the scars what do you mean when you talk about stabilizers of the Mind yeah sometimes the mind can become emotionally up and down so I'll try and give a simple example to bring the point home let's say that let's say I I do a lot of public speaking and let's say that I go to an audience and I'm trying to get across everything I do and it doesn't come over and I think I'm not getting there today I'm fumbling with everything I do um I might leave that hole in my chimps unstable because it's saying you know you didn't do a great job there and maybe I I made a joke that was near the knuckle and it was meant inside our cousin to make them laugh and it didn't come up and I think oh gee I probably offended someone so my children would beat me up for this or try so I stabilize My Mind by saying to the gym hang on you did your best you live by your values it's not that you didn't try you know you did everything you could you got it wrong all you did you weren't on form today which no one can be every day so get a life and then I will bring perspective a week from now and I'll be is even bothered the only person I'll remember is you you know so perspective is a stabilizer of the mind and so a lot of people for me it's a massive one so again you hear people commonly saying will this matter in an hour in a week and a year and for a lot of situations it really most situations doesn't matter so that's an example of one stabilizer of the Mind I love broadening time Horizons like that and it's something that I found myself really poor at doing uh in my past that the decision that I was making right now was going to be the decision that I would have to live with for the rest of my life that this purchase of a car or this move to a new city or this change of a house or this makeup or breakup of a relationship or whatever it would be it's like when you realize that most things are time bound and most things are subject to change in future it helps to release a little bit of the pressure and the same thing can occur for public speaking or a bad podcast I do a bad podcast I'm like well I've got two more to do this week and in a year's time there's going to be 150 more released so you can't have a good podcast every single time that you do it and it helps to release and relinquish some of that Obsession I think that we have and the pressure that we apply to ourselves and I think you're demonstrating when I start working with people to say let's look at what we mean by this chimp system what does it work with what can't it do one of the things it can't do when our blood supply goes into the chimp system which is the orbited frontal cortex just above your eyes when that lights up it cannot gain perspective it struggles with perspective so and it can't bring reality to a situation because it's very emotionally based the way we see things so if you have your bad podcast it struggles with this it starts catastrophizing um and you it wants to go over and over and over it doesn't actually want a solution it just wants to get rid of the problem and there's a subtle difference whereas if we can train your brain to move to human mode this is what I'm doing by my computer coming to the rescue saying as a human being I've got rationality and saying you know and I've got values so you bring in which the human system does which is the top he had we see that light up you now bring perspective in so but the complexity of the brain is that the human can't take the Chimp on if there's a fight between these two the chimp will always win because it has transmitters that can actually annihilate the human from functioning so we get hijacked literal emotional hijacks where people act out and they can't do it um and people say well that means I'm doomed because my Gym's always going to win but this is the subtlety because I've explained in the books that uh the way the chimp works it knocks the human out but it must necessity though says turn to the computer and scan which we see it literally scanning the computer and getting advice uh beliefs experiences intuition it gets masses of information within a split second which then advises the Chim which it has to follow what to do so if we program our computers well that's the secret of managing the mind so we program them so that when the chimp knocks us out our computer takes over and manages the gym so there is a way around this it's not Doom and Gloom but if you don't program the computer and keep it running then the chimp will definitely take control a couple of words that you've been using a lot throughout this conversation that I want to dig into values beliefs drives what how do those fit together how do we know what our true drives are Etc drives are innate compelling um emotions feelings we get they're biologically driven so there's a drive to eight and everybody has that drive so it's exceptional not to have an eating drive all right most people it's extremely strong because it's a survival drive it's Common Sense there's a there are lots of drives there's a derived for security so and it's where you turn to fulfill that drive so we talked to teenagers who'll turn to their peer group for security and we've explained that's got uh traumatic results at times but if we turn for security to our environment that will help the chimp but not necessarily the human our humans turn to security by looking within ourselves and our resources and what we think we can manage in life so a human for security doesn't go on the environment it may help but it won't help in overall the chimp will look on the environment but get in the right environment but that doesn't help with the mind so you can often get a great environment what The Chimps do the humans still agitated saying I don't feel so other drives uh the sex drive is very powerful and obviously that leads to a lot of difficulties with a lot of people because they can't manage it and the chimp can take over see if there's nothing in the computer we're getting to difficulty so drives are compelling things that get us out of our seats with doubt was having to do anything they just make us move first is a drive the drive for first there's lots of them the drive to be with the people if you move on to beliefs these are now what your experiences are or what you've been taught so a belief for example again I'm taking extremes um let's say I believe that all people are good and they're nice I'm leaving myself very vulnerable to those that I know will take advantage of me so I'll be taken in I'm naive if I have that extreme belief if I have the extreme beliefs that all people are not to be trusted that can have repercussions of me feeling very isolated and not trusting someone so I don't get any depths of friendships or interpersonal relationships so you have to look and say what are your beliefs so if you have a belief which I push a lot uh that the one in five release and that's based more on reality under the research that's given that about one in five people love you regardless all right they're pretty deluded really because even when you're not in the right they'll still believe you all right one in five people criticize you regardless unfortunately they're often the most vocal so unfortunately the social media these are the main bulk of people coming out and that's really sad that we have one in five people who are quite acrostic and three out of five are reasonable decent people are where you're up on what you do so they're like if you really Anonymous but they probably won't if you're not so if you have that belief that one in five people you need to be wary of because and one in five people don't get flattered and misled but three out of five learn who the balance ones are if you want soundboarding so if you're going with that belief which I believe is the correct one but that's my bias then it means I'm constantly assessing hang on is this someone I trust or is this someone who's gonna just flatten me and or is this someone who's balanced and will challenge me appropriately and then make me stop and think hey I'm on them I have a point so beliefs are something that guide you but they're quite strong because obviously these are what I call the Gremlins and the autopilots that if these but you try to do something in a belief stops you then that can be a positive influence or a negative so even sensible beliefs like don't skate on an icy pond you know especially if it's thawing you know that's common sense so you have that belief because you are distorted or you've experienced it so that's beliefs beliefs you have millions of beliefs some of them are very strong and some of them are not that influential but we form them generically and we form them specifically for circumstances um values are really important to me the reason I push value is when I started doing this work 30 years ago and creating this model of the Mind as I was going to use for my patients um and again there will be people who disagree with me I'm only given you what I believe and what's experienced over the last 30 years the only thing that gave peace of mind which is different to happiness so peace of mind is knowing what your values are and knowing at the end of the day you've lived by your values so I worked on my values and I found no matter what happens around me whether I get criticized misunderstood misrepresented these things will disturb most of us at the end of the day I can look in the mirror and think have I lived by my values and if so I'm at PACE with myself it doesn't matter it's uncomfortable but I can live with it because I'm I respect myself so when I looked at this and did it with experience with patience everyone said once you know your values you're almost immune you start realizing that's what's going to stabilize me and give peace of mind so it's very important to know how to find values and what they are and not model them up with things like what's valuable to me that's not about you so I was trying to say once you've got your values then you can measure which I ask people to do demonstrate your values in action every day because that will bring you a peace of mind thinking I did the right thing in your experience where do most people go wrong when it comes to working out their values sitting down with a piece of paper or doing some exercise online or whatever what are the do's and the don'ts when it comes to defining values for most people very nice confusing it because if you go online and say what's a value you're going to get a lot different definitions so I had to say well what am I talking about so the people I work with I try and agree this is the definition of a value and then at least we're on the same page so I'm going to go with what I've created as a definition but a lot of other people have got a certain definition I agree with them so a value is immoral belief that you hold something you think is what should happen a decent person which is going to be me I'm going to live by this decent value or this belief which is going to be acted out with a behavior so for example like they can be subtle let's say which many people do I want to respect everyone because if I normally disrespect someone I feel bad I lose my peace of mind if I unwittingly disrespect someone and then realize it or get told that will unsettle me so I need to know how do I measure respecting someone so for me I would put down number one is I listen to someone I don't have to agree with them but I give them an audience I don't attack them I listen and what their views are I listen to their views and I I believe personally for me that's showing respect so if I wanted to say let's just check on respecting people I'm gonna have a week where I actually say how many times did you dive in without listening well how many times did you stop especially in an emotional discussion how many times do you stop and say I want to actively listen to what they're saying understand it I don't have to agree or understand it and respect that value or that belief so that's an example uh what people do is they muddle things up they say things like uh my car you know that's not a value because there's no Behavior it's what you're saying is valuable to me I really get a lot of pleasure and enjoy it out of my car but that's not going to be bringing you peace of mind all right it may bring you happiness so and I like to work on happiness separately to peace of mind a lot of the exercises that I've seen online looking at things like core values do work you come up with answers with things like uh curiosity Adventure self-development self-care it seems like a key part of your definition is that it is there is an action there is something which is it's going to influence your behavior and how you show up in the world um yeah certain things like curiosity uh become very nebulous and difficult to Define uh you know they're they're like um intrinsic parts of your personality or the bits of you that you enjoy or respect but when it comes to creating like enacting that it feels like there's a little bit more of a difficulty going on there is there anything to say about that about uh some of them yeah yeah I mean I get your point I think for me uh curiosity comes under what I would Loosely call is the drive for stimulation um so some people the stimulation will be just gone on a computer game but the brain is satisfied with that whereas for many people it wants difference it wants new experiences it wants to see what would happen if so we know that some people are more prone to saying let's test things out let's and some people are wanting to achieve something so I always put under this uh heading of stimulation and again most of us have got something we want as a stimulus but it canning be as straightforward as a social group it doesn't have to be you know I'm going to learn a new language or I'm going to get to a new level on a computer game and so I try and explore that with people to say what are you doing to give stimulus to both you're human and your chimp what is it they both want and what's going to satisfy that and again I think there's different drives for the human and chimp so I work out because some people are much more terrible and say I'd like to have a discussion group like you know reading a certain book and going in the club and discussing it with others that's a nightmare uh the stimulation could be just being part of a group that supports a football team but you're looking to see some people get stuck and they don't have any and then they'll say things like I feel dissatisfied and it's hard when you don't know which way to turn um I do um I love animals I've got a lot of animals around me I've removed some from the room in case I make noises while we do this uh so I rescued some animals and um I know some people discover that so I've had people I've worked with and they've said once you get an animal not for everyone uh suddenly you've got this responsibility this interaction this you see the animals World differently and it's they use that as displacing care onto the animal and they get great satisfactions that's one example so I would explode with people what you're calling curiosity I'd say stimulation the drive to get stimulation and experience yeah that's very interesting uh I think I probably need to revisit uh my what I've deemed core values perhaps erroneously uh it was maybe three or four years ago when I put mine together and in there were a lot of things I actually can see as stimulation two of them were curiosity and adventure and they're things that I like to do but I'm trying to run them through a more fine filter which is okay how does this inform the way that I behave in the world and I don't know if they necessarily give me Guidance with regards to that so I think okay let's do some therapy hit me hit me there's only there's only a million people watching so it's fine cool that's fine it's not really therapy it's just saying if you ask me to look at this I would try and get it so we understand that the blocks we're working with so we're looking at your values as being something if you buy into this as peace of mind and things that a moral behaviors that you think I should do the following you know respect people uh help people I don't know what your values would be and now you've asked something different you've said I've got this drive uh where does curiosity come in I put that under one of your drives and say clearly it's important to you so let's look at how you're going to get mental stimulations through those drives but you're moving on to different areas again when you're looking at things like happiness because if you're saying that it clearly drives overlap so happiness is something that most people search for it's an odd Oneness because I know when I started writing the books I was told that oh happiness of what people want and I had a little bit of difficulty because I don't search for that I'm not saying I don't want it but it's not a big feature in me I'm content to be peaceful you know um but I'm not someone who searches for this great happiness and you know I'm just happy to be just okay every day that's satisfying to me so I'm a little bit odd that way um but if you are saying not Steve I need this I want stimulation but I also want like fulfillment because I'm expecting your Curiosities leading somewhere you know so I would be saying to you let's look at what you're trying to get that fulfills your chimp brain which is a really good thing to do that gives you a great feeling and a wellness and it may be excitement adrenaline it may be satisfaction but I have to say what are the words that are appropriate for what you're trying to achieve it could be all of them because then we can start understanding what is you're doing but I have to say I have to be careful because otherwise you get so analytical you just get on with your life and I'm saying just be spontaneous but if you're finding that you're not feel fulfilled that's when I think let's analyze let's see what we can look at in the blocks What's missing so you're right when you're saying you I'm not sure you define them clearly and therefore you won't be using them to Advantage yeah I think that's accurate I think that functionally it sounds it sounds nice and they're definitely things that I enjoy but when it comes down to sort of what functional utility does it give me it can I look back on my day look in the mirror and go I was curious today therefore I feel at peace with myself there are many many more things including respect for others which is a really great one from you that I think would more highly influence the peace of mind that I have you've mentioned it a couple of times I want to dig into this this tension between peace of mind and happiness and and what's what's going on there yeah they sometimes don't go together you know it's like let's say I have I've got stuff let's say I've got a member of stuff who's really not fitting in the group and we've got me I haven't just in case any of my stuff are listening I haven't got anyone but if let's say I did and I thought you know the team are not gelling and we've got this person who's not fitting in with our values or they're not they're just trying but they just don't work well then I know that the right thing to do morally is to grasp them up and go and see them and say look it's a mismatch you know there's no negative in that sense it's going to be difficult and they may they may get I've had this in the past they may attack me and and say all the things in the world you know you're meant to be this caring person but I'm thinking it's for the good so I would leave that I wouldn't be happy you know I'm not saying I don't want to be happy by the way but I wouldn't be happy but I'd have peace of mind I know I've done the right thing and in the long run they may not like me uh and I've nothing good to say about me but I know in the long run it's for the best for them on the team so there's an example where peace of mind and happiness don't go together um and it can go the other way I could be happy about something uh but not have peace of mind because I think actually you didn't do the right thing you know so overall I'm gonna end up feeling not so good I'll think yeah it's a superficial happiness I was gonna say do you think it seems to me that happiness without peace of mind is more difficult to achieve that peace of mind acts as a a tarnish that can that can kind of color and Jade any experiences and that the happiness will inevitably be more fleeting or more fragile yeah I haven't done this so just in case people think oh but obviously it's part of my job um I've examined all the doctors and medical students because that's my world uh um I'm with the Royal College and you know I want people to pass I don't like to fill anybody and so if somebody's bored or anything oh they don't really really deserve to pass I haven't done this uh my happiness would be to pass them but I wouldn't have peace of mind because I think you know at the end of the day you were wrong you shouldn't do this but I might think I know there's something so much and then I'll justify it rationalize whatever I'm sure they'll learn on the job and I'm sure they'll be fine and I've got but that's rationalizing so you can see there's an example where somebody might lose peace of mind but actually feel at the time I'm happy because I'm past them because if I don't I'm gonna have such unhappiness so sometimes we compromise our values which lead to us having less of a peace of mind and I'm not saying it's right or wrong I'm saying it's something people have to decide on yeah that's very interesting you brought up your work with medical staff you've just done this new study or you've been you've completed and now published a study on burnout and well-being I think amongst nhf nurses and maybe doctors as well to talk to me about uh sort of burnout as a concept it's kind of a buzzword at the moment I think a lot of people maybe do feel that they are overwhelmed with workload and stimulus and I don't really have time for myself and I feel like the past maybe I was like more peaceful or things were slower and then burnout as a concept and then Let's Fold in this new study and what you learned from your time working with the NHS then yeah I was with NHS for 20 years so uh it was great time um Bernard again it's defined differently but I think it's Common Sense what we mean it means you suddenly feel like you don't have the energy anymore you get up in the morning you need to dread it so for a doctor for example let's go back to my experiences I would do outpatients twice a week and if I'm starting to suffer now I was thinking I can't face it I just want to get through this uh that's a sign of burnout whereas normally I'd be getting keen and enthusiastic to go and see them or or thinking you know if I get the slightest headache I'm just gonna for an insect and you get signs of burnout so there's a number of them anxiety put asleep but it's generally this feeling of I just can't do this I can't do it I'm overwhelmed as you pointed out so with that in mind when I did the chip model which just took off and then uh it's very humbling because obviously it was meant to be just for medical students to learn the new science when liter model did take off I wanted to go back to my roots and I worked uh we did a series of workshops I called it skills for life and it's emotional management and understanding yourself so it's based on a part of the Jungle and we said we'll take we took 80 GPS from a county nearby uh and we I said and we'll run eight workshops and we'll see whether this affects your health uh your communication with your staff your burnout your sickness rates and that was just a pilot run I did and it worked fantastically again credit to the GPS and the staff who were working with the GPS they worked on it and they said it did make a massive difference so as a doctor obviously I'm bringing out this model which is semi-fun but serious I want to know it actually works otherwise it's fraudulent um so then I took a study with 200 teachers and went into the schools and was trying to say let's have a look at you we had three cents to study and again it's only a pilot run with teachers in York Birmingham and Cambridge and and that was just again just a pilot run so we did it roughly and ready and the feedback was really really encouraging so I didn't actually do the next study because clearly I can't do my own assessment so it was taken out of my hands by an independent research group and I was not allowed to do the teaching bit I was put to one side which I accept and I think that's right and they underwent these series about workshops and then they did analysis which is published in the journal for mental health uh and it showed a massive reduction in Burnout a massive reduction in health issues um and a General Health questionnaire was used uh to show that The increased Health was marked so we were excited by that obviously I'm over the moon uh the nurses were brilliant in engaging it brilliant but they took it seriously because obviously their front line and the stress on them is immense and and amazing it was done under covid we had to do it online because and they all were brilliant to say we keep going and the feedback was great so we're now undergoing another group I'm not involved independent researchers are doing 200 doctors um and again I do a lot of talks to medical staff because this is my world and I'm more familiar with the medical organelle sport um so it's very encouraging so we run this for the public as well it's not just academics or and it's just to say if it resonates with you then you can do this and see what you think and the general feel is it now the research has published and analyzed that it it does have an impact I was wary that it wasn't like something a flashy in the pan because obviously a lot of therapies and they see it they don't hold so we did go back to the GPS months later without warning and say give us another feed and found it held which wasn't surprising because what I'm asking people to do is approach life differently and once you do that you more or less keep doing it but you do have to maintain I do say to people five or ten minutes a day is all I ask to maintain these and learn to get your mind in order before you leave the house in the morning that's that's what I'm after what do you think it is specifically about your approach that is assisting with the symptoms of burnout or targeting even the root cause of burnout and overwhelm Maya I think genuinely I think it isn't the model per se I think it's the person being able to understand themselves and start looking after themselves and start understanding things like I mentioned trigger points uh recognizing anxiety rather than not seeing it so um we give teach them about subtle signs of anxiety Then recognizing how to detect things like beliefs that are not helping so we're challenging a lot of things but it's all about the unique person empowering them and giving them the tools to get the life and be the person that they are that's what it's about so when you do that which will include practical things like communication skills assertiveness but learning how to communicate with your human side of the brain rather than the chimp brain which is emotionally driven and can often cause more problems so it's a big overall of looking at you I think that's why it's working because the person makes it work they have to decide I can't decide what works for them yeah and as you've sort of emphasized today because we are so idiosyncratic and because our drives and our genetic predisposition and our life experiences and the ways we've dealt with pastorama and all of that are so unique it needs to be something which is sufficiently scalable and each person presumably individually finds their own flavor of this and that resonates with me because I'm more of an angry chimp person or my chimp and my human are Chris High rather than Ronnie O'Sullivan right and that's why I say I can't I say this to people only you're gonna discover all I do is help you and catalyze where's Claude and suggests but I'm gonna have to ask you to do the work it's not me that does the work I I do my bit but again I'd say at this point you know it doesn't resonate with everyone it's not for everyone um and they're a fantastic therapies out there my job along with everyone in this field is to say just try and get the best out of yourself and quality of life so you know if people go for mindfulness CBT these are excellent therapies they're excellent models to work with I mean I'm an academic so I like evidence-based however if people go for things where there's no evidence as if it works for you I'm not arguing right all I'll say is be very careful that you don't get fooled by something particularly someone who you know is giving you stuff that's gonna work in the short term and then find your collapse down so it's got to be something solid there's plenty of stuff out there to resonate with have you found a particular cohort of people that the chimp model Works particularly well or particularly poorly with that's a good question and the answer is no because it's whether that person gets it I mean some time ago when I very first started doing this I was asked to do a brief television series which was with some women I got four of them and they asked me to teach them to ride a bike because I was with cycling at the time uh but that to lose weight and learn how to manage their mind so it was a bit of a funny a fun series I did I loved it the women were brilliant they were brilliant great fun to work with but it was interesting that the the Chipmunk bubbles are almost in paused upon them I mean they knew who I was at the time it was some years ago well one of them didn't resonate with it at all and I was happy I said no I can talk in different terms but she had a moment where she'd be she was doing some Sport and um she'd gone after sport justifying while she was getting a takeaway um and she knew she was on telly and she said I sat outside the takeaway and I said I deserve this because I've worked hard I've run off a lot of calories and then I said to myself you're on a television program you're meant to be losing weight and then she rang me and said I've just found my chin you said it was bizarre I was talking and I'm thinking who am I talking to so sometimes the penny has to drop where you think I get what the Neuroscience is but it doesn't happen for everyone and I that's what I'm saying find something that resonates with you so who works with it is the person that resonates so my younger student is three or has was three who got it and would talk about his naughty chimp um the eldest person that's come to me that's actually said this really works is about 80. um and what he was he was quite annoyed with me saying why didn't you write this six years but I was a little boy at the time I didn't have any knowledge yeah yeah but I've had a lot of people who are which is very humbling to me they're in their 60s and 70s saying ah if only I had known this so they're the vehement you must bring this to schools but I don't want to impose it I think someone has to resonate so there's a danger of him pausing and that that's the last thing I want to do it's got to be empowerment rounding out that conversation around sort of burnout and overwhelm you spend a good bit of time in the new book talking about robustness mental robustness and resilience big buzzwords you know a lot of the guys that I've had on the show people like David Goggins who's this Ultra endurance athlete Joker willink who wrote a book uh about discipline equaling Freedom um a lot of discussion about mental resilience and robustness um what what is interesting do you think about or what have you learned about your conception of resilience and robustness compared with maybe what what most people don't understand or get wrong about it again your definitions are so vague if you start looking there are so many different people saying this is what robust and says so I had to do the same I had to say to myself Define it so if people are following you they say okay if we use that definition I see what you get going to so I Define robustness as having a plan so we can all become robust it's like getting a toy for a child and saying we've designed it for the child resilience is handing it Auburn see if it works so resilience is where you go out of the work into the world and say right so I would have a mental strategy and plan to deal with my trigger points but when I get out there that's being robust I'm ready to leave the room the second they get out now its resilience is the skill to stay robust is to stay in that same strong position so I think robustness we can all get to but being resilient is a skill and I think that's where people come unstuck because they start beating themselves up instead of saying it's a skill that means you've got to acquire it and maintain it but also some days you you get it wrong like any sports person uh for me managing my mind is a skill and every day I've got to work on this so every day I do every day I have usually around four points in the day where I do a quick check and say right can we just make sure I'm in human mode make sure my beliefs are back in place make sure I understand get perspective um that's what I do very briefly it can take a minute five minutes but that resets my mind so I'm resetting so I think resilience is something you've got to work on and know how to use your skill but it's not easy so that's why when I wrote the pass of the Jungle I was saying I'm going to show all the basics so you know what how how things work in your mind what resonates with you what doesn't so you can do the exercise to get yourself in a great place by the end of it you've now got robustness and you've got some ideas on how to become resilient and that's why I did a bit of troubleshooting at the end to say these are the common things that I find people say it's not working for some reason you know Ronnie O'Sullivan did say as he also he has permission to sell anything I've worked them about two years and he rang me one morning and he was very much in gym mode and distressed and he said it's not working it's not working I quite hard and I said to him have you done the work and he said no so I said okay I'm gonna put the form down ring me when you've done the work so I'll put the phone now uh and it rang me about three four days later and I said how are you doing he said brilliant I said why I said I did the work uh you know so the answer is simple there's no different than anything else you've got to do the work and the work is making sure your values are in place making sure what we did the stone of life not mentioned with all your beliefs in place uh and what the rules of the way the world works you know these are the truths of life um and then also put in place a perspective plan so when he did that he said yeah it's working again so the answer is when people say to me it's not working is I always ask have you done the work and sometimes people need guidance because they'll do they really try hard but they're trying hard on the wrong things and then you've got to say hang on can I just adapt that I'll modify this and so a little subtleness and then they go ah okay I'm off again that's why I call my team the mentors because they're there not to instruct they're there to Mentor you to saying oh let me help you there's a glitch here and challenge things so you can work it out yeah the uh tendency that we all have to complain about results we're not getting from effort That We're Not Making is yeah very very pervasive and I see it I see it in myself if I start a new training program or switch my diet up or try and do something different with my bedtime routine it's like you've done it for three days one of those days you didn't do it because such and such a thing happened or you were away from home so yeah it's one of the things I'm getting here and it's interesting there's almost like a a philosophical underpinning here you know your own personal philosophy about the way that the world is and obviously we we experience the world through the texture of our own mind it's the only way that we have to experience the world even experiences from other people still get filtered through our own mind um yeah and yeah it does there is a a sort of almost like a Whimsical philosophy uh undercurrent that I'm sensing through through some of the stuff that you're talking about making sense of the world around us yeah I didn't want to be restricted when I did this to saying right I mean obviously I've been taught very well with philosophical models and medical models and psychological uh but I did want to restrict people I think it's what people want to do with it and make of it I'm very much uh Keen that they have empowerment but I still will challenge things I'll challenge beliefs people hold because if I think that's holding them back beliefs about themselves particularly or all of the people of the world um but I will yeah I think there is a philosophy underpinning it but it's your philosophy and I think sounding boards we use friends to do this all the time we we say something they'll correct us I'll say oh do you really see it that way so what I'm doing is doing that with hopefully the Neuroscience behind it to give that push but I want to take you back something said because um on the thing it doesn't work one of the commonest things I get and this is an example of why it doesn't work sometimes if you do work for a few days and then you miss a deal to you can go backwards depending on what you're trying to achieve so I'm going to give sleep as an example I ran sleep clinics a long time ago and people say to me I just have terrible sleep and one of the general rules of sleep is that you it's a it's a learned behavior so although there's all these circadian rhythms they're actually secondary to learn Behavior so if we get you to learn a behavior of sleep then your brain will start to follow this and your body will the Circadian rhythm is obviously powerful but it's not as powerful as habit so I work with people who say right and I say go to bed whatever time it is 10 o'clock wake up seven o'clock and that's your sleep and they'll do this for say I'm making this up five days and then Saturday come and say oh well we're late on we went home at one o'clock and then got to bed and I slept in till 10. and the rules I'm being very black and white the rules are simple for the next three or four days you finished you can't do that with a brain so none of your sleep's gone out until about Wednesday or Thursday so now you try again and you say well I'm doing what you said but that's the subtleties no you didn't you have to stick to it Saturday Sunday as well now I know some people get away with it because we're variants we're not all the same but the general rule is once you do that you're finished it it won't accept this destruction of sleep so again I'm trying to point out that sometimes there's subtleties in the way the mind works and it's the same with emotional stuff which is why I pre-program things about four times a day because my experience for me is if I don't then I get minor chimp my son my team might say major chimp outbursts and then I think gee and I have to come around and say okay sorry about that let's start again right but if I prime it about three or four times get it back in tune I tend never to get one what a really consistency yeah what I really appreciate about uh your approach and what you've gone through today is a real uh humbleness or sort of a a lack of ego or at least an apparent lack of ego around needing to be right and I think that it's a very strong signal of trustworthiness that it's just I want people to be better I want them to have a better relationship with themselves people that are around them I want them to have more peace of mind and live a more flourishing better life you have an approach that you believe in but if there are other things that people do I think it's it's a very um refreshing way in a world in which everybody is trying to prove themselves to be right and prove their models and their worldviews and their books or their courses to be yeah no but the the reality is that none of us are always right and that not everyone will resonate so I'm not it's very nice to say it but I don't say it's humble I think it's been rational that you know there are plenty of other models that people have said this is much better or this I don't get this chip model uh so I don't think it's necessarily humble and I think on the eagle thing to be fair like a lot of people um who are in medical um an Allied sciences and philosophies and all this and where we're practical and therapeutic therapists we're there to help people we get kick hands out so in a sense you're feeding your ego because but it's only about for you to think oh that person really did well so I thrive and I think it's nice too on people doing well so to me you know seeing someone suddenly saying I've really got my act together or achieved something like Chris Hoy did you feel thrilled that you're saying I had a little bit of a part in that see Steve you're you're even humble in your horribleness which is unfalsifiable I'm Gonna Keep On I'm gonna keep on accusing you of it no I really I really do like it and I think the the idea of the mind having this hidden metric right the fact that our Peace of Mind our happiness the fact that we're living in alignment with our values we don't see it day to day in the same way it doesn't appear on a scale in the same way and I'm fascinated by how people sacrifice hidden metrics for observable metrics so uh let's say let's take um Peace of Mind and money a lot of the time people will sacrifice Peace of Mind in order to get money because it is so difficult to see and I I really think that one of the things that appears to be happening here is trying to make that hidden metric a little bit more observable by checking in by seeing where I'm at by reflecting on what I've done well again I guess I'm a Doctrine a scientist at heart and I like to measure things and so I do like people to see that progress because we also know our chimp brains like to achieve as our humans do so I do push this to say let's get a skill to measure things even happiness you know we've already talked about it um but I asked people not to give me a scale of five out of ten because I don't think that really helps because one minute they're one one minute they're nine what I do is I say things like tell me five things that will make you happy and they're like simple things so it could be uh having a cup of coffee uh going for a walk with the dog or it could be going out with friends for a meal so what I do is say right I want you to measure how many times you do that in a week because we know that if you do those things the chance of you being happy go up so I measure indirect so I often don't measure directs I think what's going to influence you to get what you want so I'm quite keen on happiness lists I go on about them because again because most people do want to be happy I do want to be happy I've made myself into this kind of weird person but but I'm saying peace of mind for me I have a peace of mind list yes but but I think happiness lists I think are really important and I like to divide them into instantaneous because that can make a difference to our chimps maybe not our humans so for me a cup of coffee is right at the top of the list I'm an addict so if I if I want to get happy I'll grab a coffee and think I'm happy now I even use that as a emotional blackmail on my chin so if I've got 50 emails and I've got to do them uh and my gym doesn't want to do emails right but I know it'll benefit people so I'll say you don't get in coffee till we do 10. I have no idea why but it will do 10. so we both do 10 and then I get coffee so uh and it works for me so simple there's an equivalent you may have seen this in some of the the training sessions that you've either done yourself or observed but uh in CrossFit especially you will have a time-bounded workout and the coach will be stood at the front of the room and you'll be your heart rate's at 180 and you've got the taste of metal in the back of your throat and you hate the coach and the workout and gravity and everything and the coach does this thing every single CrossFit gym on the planet does this the coach will shout from the front of the room careers get back on the bar three two one jump on the bar and there's something about that countdown and it's like someone's literally put their hand inside of you and made you do the thing that they were going to do and the the idea of like you're not getting a coffee or you're not going to go for a walk or you're not going to do the whatever um there are like these little bugs or features perhaps in the code that we have that's running our operating system and sometimes you can just inject yourself at the right Point together you can learn to do it it's the same and people say to me I work with the British swimming team um for a while and uh the the biggest thing for them was getting out of bed in the morning because they said it's like four o'clock starts and it can be hard and so some of them struggled and again it's the same principle of saying don't think just block the chimp because that's what's stopping you you want to get off it's only the chimp brand that says stay in bed or we could have five minutes more of and and it's irrational really because you sound need to get up that's where the alarm's gone so again it's it's quite powerful to learn to block thinking and just say no I'm not going with that I'm acting um and that's basically what you did with your Chris get going through so you're not thinking anymore you're just acting so what he's done effectively you know scientifically is turned your computer on as a behavior it's neither chip nor human that's got on the bike it's the computer that was taken over and said it's irrelevant how I feel it's irrelevant more emotions there's an action needs doing and here we go so he's used to trigger point for the computer and that's why that will work but you can learn to do that for yourself which is what I've done I get my computer to take over and my children because okay okay we'll get coffee soon Steve Peters ladies and gentlemen Steve I absolutely love your work I love your demeanor I think that I think it's very very good and no matter how humble you are I think that you should uh you should continue to do the things that you want to take all of the praise because it seems very very well deserved what should people do Beyond uh the books but those as well if they think that they want to get even more information if they want to start working with somebody on this what is it that you guys offer um I mean they can work things out from the books that's a path to the Jungle is much more explicit with exercises to try that hopefully would resonate with people and it goes through the science and there's lots of references 400 plus they can look up uh we run a small company and we do do workshops for teams or individuals I do a lot of fun stuff as well so we have a sports conference coming up in October I'm going on the Dracula hunt back to North Yorkshire at Whitby uh and we're gonna do a fun I'm going to teach at the beginning of it set them off uh I think there's a team bill for my team they loved it so I thought let's open it to the public so I'm doing that in October as a weekend retreat so it's fun but it's team little fun um finding Dracula's coffin and then I do a Christmas conference so we do do public conferences we have an annual conference every May where I don't do all the speaking even please you know my team get up and do it but we have the team available to do workshops and they can join what we call the troop which is on online it's free I just got on the chip management website and I do a one-to-one thing which at the moment I'm following a pass through the jungle to try and uh give people something to work on practically and there's a community though go on discussion boards so if people want to join in and they're resonate they can meet like-minded people which is what I'm trying to set up it's working I hope fantastic Steve I really appreciate you thank you thank you so much for inviting me if you enjoyed that episode then press here for a selection of the best clips from the podcast over the last few weeks and don't forget to subscribe