Artistic Autonomy and the Balkans

and then we will open the floor and hopefully we will see you if you will uh will uh want to uh join the conversation hopefully. Uh and uh yeah so um I guess that uh the keynote by Mariana made a great uh introduction to the topic of mobility justice and uh uh so so really uh great kickoff, great starting point for us. Uh so we all understand that mobility is not just about travel, about visas, about uh uh funding, about invitations or uh yeah logistics. It's uh mobility is a lot about power uh and it's about who can be present uh who is allowed to speak, who is allowed to uh cross borders safely and uh whose artistic voice can circulate without fear of uh censorship or punishment and uh but today's focus here is on the Balkans and uh uh we will look at the connection between their freedom and freedom of movement. >> I know it's not your job. >> Okay. Uh and uh so we will discuss how political pressure that were already mentioned in the keynote, economic pecarity and regional inequalities shape artistic autonomy. Uh and what happens when artists and cultural workers actually cannot move uh cannot cooperate, cannot speak freely. uh and uh obviously I think it's clear for for all of us uh even uh from outside the sector that the question is urgent and very concrete. [clears throat] Uh so we heard and we know and maybe we even have our own uh personal experience about the the current situation across the region. Uh and I guess it's not only happening in Serbia, it's happening in different forms even in Slovenia which is a EU member state and and maybe we see a future that similar situation will occur even uh more uh often. Uh so um we see that uh restrictions affect not only individual artists and culture works workers they also weaken crossber cooperation and we heard in the keynote that uh uh we in order uh for for cooperation uh should be a process and for a process we need time and space and uh uh in order to make it happen we need uh resources and support Uh so in order to practice the solidarity that uh was mentioned, we need support on different levels and uh so I'm glad that uh I'm joined by uh two great uh experts, outstanding speakers. Uh I have here Sara Wyatt from uh who is a research director at Free Muse, a very well-known international organization working on artistic freedom. Uh Sara has previously headed Pen International um um the freedom of expression program at Pen International and she has uh contributed her expertise uh to many organizations working in the field of artistic uh freedom and she's also member of the expert facility of the 2005 UNESCO convention on the protection and uh promotion of the diversity of cultural expression. depression uh and she is also expert in the council of Europe so-called free to create creative free initiative maybe she will tell us more later and then harsh is I think an institution in the region uh like >> 20 words here star institution >> yeah I mean yeah that that's the fact so he's like for those who don't know him as an institution. He's theater and film director and the director of SO festival. His uh theater production have been presented all over the world. uh and he created the very famous SO red line uh a public installation of 11,54100 chairs uh uh in central SO commemorating per all the persons killed during the siege. He had he also founded the faro film festival back in 93 and he directed international theater festival memo he's artistic director of the east west center and also professor of directing at the so academy of performing arts and currently uh also very much involved in European festival association as chair of the jury of so-called ea which stands for European festival fund for emerging uh artists. Okay. So let's start. I'm I will start with you. So um actually free news uh is not focusing on living in specific media right uh but uh we understand you know that uh um artistic freedom uh gives us uh a broader lens uh a broader lens for understanding why actually matters and uh from your work can you share with us Um how you see what is the current state of artistic freedom globally or maybe you know what are uh the main patterns patterns of uh repression that you are observing or maybe what are uh some less visible uh forms of oppression and uh so a big question but easier to answer easier to answer because um free News has just published its annual global report of attacks on artistic freedom around the world. Um, free news was founded in 1998 and as its title suggests mainly for musicians but after a few years it expanded its u its monitoring of attacks on uh all art forms. um and it's based in uh in Copenhagen and I myself am based in London and we have a small team of uh researchers covering most of the world not all of the world and we react to and we document we document uh cases of artists and by artists we mean everybody including cultural workers and even really going to the edges let's say of what we see as cultural expression we work for people who have been victimized because of their dress um because of um because of other works that they do which might not be seen specifically as art forms which is actually very much interesting. And the attacks we see come from everywhere. Of course, from governments, but also from non-governmental organizations and increasingly um uh individuals and what we're calling nets, people who don't really belong in any particular country, but through social media attack and vilify um art. Um, globally the situation is I hesitate to say worsening but becoming more complex. We have when I first started out working in human rights back in the 1980s the type of attacks were um against artists and writers and arts were quite straightforward. somebody would write a piece about that denigrating a president, they would be brought before the courts and imprisoned or directly attacked. We're seeing less of that. There are certain countries such as Iran, uh Cuba, China, and closer to Turkey, where we are still seeing um arrests and long-term trials of artists and culture workers. But what we're seeing actually what we're seeing more is a pattern of um other forms of I hesitate to say subtle but hidden forms of censorship less recognizable forms of censorship. A little while ago I was asked by the Council of Europe to write a report on the state of artistic freedom in Europe. And my first response were, you know, if I write that report, it will look very familiar to what we've written year after year. It would be the usual countries if it be Turkey within mass arrest and detention. It' be countries like Poland and Hungary. I'm talking about uh 2020 [clears throat] here. What I'm really interested in is what I'm hearing from artists and culture workers about the other forms including in democracies. And I'm very grateful to the council of Europe for allowing me to extend my research beyond the obvious. So my first report which was published I think in 2022 23 was based on um largely on a closed discussion in Lupa of artists and cultural workers in anonymity for countries including not just Hungary, Poland, Turkey but also Belgium and Norway and the UK and Ireland. And you began to see a pattern of well, you know, I'm having difficulty in getting access to grants to fund or the conditions that are being applied to me in order for me to be able to access the grants. For instance, are um are becoming more more difficult. There was talk about increasing control of cultural institutions, museum, grant making bodies, by government bodies, placing friends of governments within the the bodies. This allowing certain kinds of uh artworks and topics um to be to be covered. And also on top of that there was the um the impact of social media and hate campaigns and how that would make a person hesitate before they might do a certain kind of work or certain kind of of um of uh criticism or critical work. And uh finally and not least the economy. and the economy has shrunk, artists are less likely to take the kind of risks that they might do that might cause them problems with funding institutions with being able to perform their their their pieces on on a particular stage. It's become a more complex environment than when I started out in the 1980s and 1990s. So well I have to start there as well but I know that the Hugh Harrows have got a lot more experience working under a long period of uh of of repression from the youth day under conflict which of course other artists are living on under the moment and the present day subtleties not quite the word. I don't know going to hand to you may maybe just one additional question before we we move to Harris because actually already tackled the topic of self censorship you know like you know receiving less resources means that you really think twice what you say how you say it. So can you maybe like elaborate a bit more on this self censorship and like can can mobility or the possibility of mobility uh reduce self censorship? Can you think if how this can be connected? Self censorship is very hard to identify and to monitor. Many people will not even admit to self censorship. Sometimes it's difficult to know when this is selfcensorship. I was talking to filmmakers last week where we raised the question of is this self censorship or is this pragmatism. So it's very very hard um to know. Um I have heard that um being able to participate in um independent um festivals and venues you have more freedom. Um but [clears throat] uh I've also heard and I I often refer to global uh issues. I was also in Malaysia a couple of weeks ago and a film festival producer was saying that when his his festival was completely independent of commercial funding he had absolute freedom. But when he introduced a commercial fund that's where the censorship came from the funer didn't come from paint it came from the fun being concerned for whatever it was you know their own their own status there as well. So yeah, being able to move out and to participate in other um venues, but I wonder about the repercussions. Again, we've got social media, somebody says something in another country abroad is going to backlash and it's that backlash that governments particularly right-wing governments will pick on pick up on no matter where it comes from, no matter where you said or did whatever. So, as you said earlier, I'm not an expert on um on on freedom of movement, but I would imagine that an artist who's concerned about what they're saying at home is going to be concerned about what they're saying abroad because it will be relayed back. >> Thanks, S. Okay. So, uh uh Harris uh let me bring you here uh in the uh the topic. So when you listen to Sar's overview uh of repression and like censored the self censorship uh what resonates with the realities you think in this region in the Balkans you know uh are there any specific forms of uh repression in the re region that are maybe less visible to international you know uh audiences or you First, thank you for the introduction that is generous. Thank you very much. Also, thanks to guys for the team, you know, we were you see, you know, if you are if you're strong enough, you know, people here uh and thank you for for choosing this this uh uh panel for to to hopefully take part in. We hope you will. Um so uh we had yesterday S and I we shared the taxi from from the airport and had a very very lively discussion you know I wish we could repeat it you know uh because we didn't agree mostly about anything on the basis on the basis that we do agree on the basic practice you know that we do respect uh not only necessity but the deep um um principle to uh artistic freedom and uh everywhere in the province or elsewhere. So um but I I believe that uh we have somehow to remind ourselves all the time that we live in the midst of a massive massive revolution. It's so big that sometimes we can't even really perceive it how how big it is. You know everything changes you know it is political revolution with the wars that usually the revolutions you know bring with with it change it is economic uh revolution it's technological revolution um and this will not um be without consequences for for the artists and for civil society. So talking about artistic freedom, I believe that we need to reconsider and I find that these conferences one of the places to reconsider and redefine what is artistic freedom and what is it for. Uh because artistic freedom is not something that we should take for granted. You know it will be a little bit spoiled by very nice consideration by the European Union of the artistic freedom of Egypt and generally you know by the 20th century but artistic freedom is more than invention you know it is invention uh of the 20th century because for the most part the artists were not free to speak and there was no freedom of speaking. So in today's world when you have the president of one of the biggest probably the the biggest and the strongest power in the world uh says to the pope which is the figure of a greatest authority shut up you actually don't know enough about Christianity to speak about which I don't as you know I don't make any sure I mean that's what he said when the pope is has to struggle for his voice then I think we have to struggle uh better than we do. So the the the long very long history of uh uh the the the banning of people speaking of such we can say in the second commandment 4 years 4,000 years ago as you know you must not reason to take the images and to like them something that we in would not agree today about you So uh then we had to wait for 2,000 years quite a span for the first reform of this amendment when Jesus said um now the second amendment actually is bloodline still this beautiful after all these years. So uh uh in many parts of the world. So uh and then another 780 years before um Nissan Council in which actually the painting of the images of God in this case but images in general uh were allowed. But then another 50 years of struggle against it before [clears throat] it started it became the history of arts in in in the in the in in in the 20th century mostly Europe was in other other contexts. So we see that the history of this banning and then later we have remember [clears throat] Marqueis the sad was for 40 years in the in the prisons and and the um psychiatric clinics because of he wrote the books or yeah he was banned because he wrote the comedies and you know we can we can list a lot lot of of artists who were banned, censored and suppressed in their music expression. Only from the Wan Republic uh in 195 constitution in 1990 we started to uh understand when I say we as the civilization of human race you know started to to to to believe that we have to put this in the documents. But then the first attempt obviously was a big failure because right legally we stated at least about autistic freedom freedom we had someone who used this artistic freedom to become Hitler. Uh so you know we we we see that it is a very very long and complex struggle. You know, until today, most of the countries in Europe don't have uh in the laws anything concerning artistic freedom. France is the big and wonderful exception that with the law from 2006 in which artistic freedom has been protected by the law. So talking about the action that Norman said in in the beginning I think you know that one of the actions and uh actually uh um some people uh led by Mila who was mentioned today he's the director of winner festival um uh he he he leads the action uh for your first European um act of freedom of speech which would be the beginning you know and the great step of the European Union to put in laws the principles that uh at the moment European Union operates on because we don't know if these principles will survive if they are not part of the documents of the laws of European Union it seems impossible to to say okay it's impossible to think that these kind of things will not survive. No, it's possible. Now we see it is possible. Everything is possible. It's possible to change to say okay if you don't give me this I will put you the tariffs and then you will you will you will die and so we see that you know that the things are very very different. So um now than than even few years ago we shouldn't take take for granted that the civil society will survive. We have to make it important to survive because we do believe and we request very proudly uh the fund public funds mostly from European Union or uh our uh national governments or in some cases some private foundations mostly American foundations sometimes interestingly in the film industry from the Dha Foundation which is the foundation of a dictator. So we are a bit desperate now with these about this at the same time we say we have right for this at the same time we say we are the victims. So we more or less for those who make decision uh for those who produce these funds and for those who have power to distribute them we are uh uh we emanate everything what they don't like. So they don't like the victims they don't like those who claim some rights or something you know and we are largely unproductive. We don't produce drugs. We don't produce banks. We don't produce anything useful in this world according to these people. So you know we have to prove that we we are needed. We are lucky to live in Europe. And although we live in Balkans in the Balkans is a kind of special case of Europe but still you know close enough to the European Union or at least part of the balance is in the European Union already and European Union with all the problems. You see, I censored myself. I wanted to say something with me, but you know, I'm super nice. So um European Union um is still the paramount of human rights and this is said right now by the survivor or genocide in the pros that I survived despite the fact that European Union didn't act on time to prevent it. So this is pretty much hard European believer that is speaking right now because I believe that European Union didn't that Europe didn't start with with European Union that uh Europe started much much earlier with its humanistic democratic principles and before all as a as the as the credle and source of art civilization and uh dreams of a better future. >> Thank you. It's a huge challenge that you are offering to us. is you're saying that you know the culture sector should be stronger than the pope himself and uh so and still uh like uh uh you also uh shared with us that there is support needed on different levels like even on the legislative level uh European uh uh can you so actually you think that uh we need legal base that would offer some kind of support uh and also financial you know but it's like everything is limited and do you have any you know wild imagination and imagination idea on how this can be done we have we have heard in the keynote you know about this uh uh solidarity in practice but still we even in Serbia you know it's a huge movement but it's still ongoing you know we we thought that after a few months something will change you And it's so difficult for ordinary artistic practitioners to you know uh living in this precarious condition to really continue the fight if I may say you know so you know how how you imagine this uh support system you know this uh that would enable you know that we secure these values we all believe in >> I [clears throat] don't know if if our distinguished speaker of our keynote is here in front of me. I don't see her because I don't know if I qualify by her words because she said that everything was wrong with the old white men were around. So um well I don't agree I mean I do agree with some but with some white all white men you know that they shouldn't be around but also you know I think there were quite a few in the history that carried the torch of democracy human rights and feminism. So um we the financial sources are not the main thing. This this is something that probably is very much dis disputeable part. But again looking through the history and the recent history including the siege that you mentioned sort there uh we uh we can produce art and we can speak without much of uh financial I don't say that we don't need it we do need it you know but it is not like a precondition you know to to to work and to Um we the laws would be good that would be helpful but we have the treasure which even the politicians are envious about. We have our voices. We have talent. We have ability to articulate meaning in our local communities on a global stage. Uh in exchange uh we can perform on the street. We can play you know in front of the government. You know, I was very very happy, you know, to to see yesterday in in in front of the Bosnian government in S uh there was a performance about uh about uh forests [snorts] which is very surprising for me you know I I don't expect you know such a nice nice thing you know to happen these days. Uh but it did it did happen and you see it two or three uh guys made a nice performance on a small carpet. I saw the picture in front of of the government and today I'm speaking to the international audience about it. So uh we do have this fantastic power and I think that to engage this power to have I mean first of all the civil society has to quit with the victims psychology I mean okay we are they are against us they don't give us peace they don't they should come That's not we are not uh at the psychotherapy. We are in the world which is very cruel in the world that is like a jungle. We have to survive and you will not survive if we go around and complain that we are not treated appropriately. So I think you know this what what uh Abraham Lincoln said in his famous uh get address you know but he said maybe we will not be uh remembered by what we said. So we'll be paying attention little attention will be paid to what we send but we will what counts it's what we do. So I think that the civil civil society has to act very quickly to move from this um jeopardized uh victims to fighters who use their wonderful opportunities, their wonderful talents, their wonderful ideas and to brave the storm and to bring some errors to this struggle and stop complaining. You've given me so many um um uh ideas there and actually yes uh resistance rarely needs money. It usually comes from from my many years of watching it a group of people coming up and saying this is wrong stage of performance stage of protest. maybe where funding comes in a bit later with when people need to start documenting or hiring people to do the the advocacy work. And yes, artist and cultural workers are in an exceptionally strong position. And I know having worked with academics, having worked with media people that you have far more reach than those groups. you have a lot more uh connection with the public. You can get your message across in ways that academics certainly can't for people who um don't engage with that kind of language. Even journalists and journalisms don't reach out to everybody. Um, and that's why it was a kind you can put up protests and prestige performances shouldn't grab the public imagination in a way that a newspaper article or certainly an academic paper and certainly a legal text does not do. So yes, you have a particular strength and I quite agree. I don't think sometime that the um arts and cultural sectors really understand that and um it you were probably wondering what our argument was about in the taxi where it came from was that um I was talking about my many many years of having worked in uh in human rights starting out in 1980 uh when I worked at a documentary film company which then which focused on human rights. ites and the malpractices of uh international uh organ um companies in the Philippines misselling drugs um etc. And then I moved on to Amnesty International and I for some reason found myself in their Asia department and the first thing I was confronted with and we're talking 1984 were the photographs of the hundreds of thousands of the victims of killing field and like a lot of fascism fascists authoritarian organization they chronicled every single one of them. So it was a photograph of every person that was subsequently killed. We were dealing with the Philippines on the market regime and one of the people that we filmed uh in my previous job was shot dead for calling for clean water essentially. My main focus was on North and South Korea. North Korea haven't changed very much over time, but when I was working in the 1980s, thousands of people were being arrested, protested on the streets. Now, in Cambodia, in the Philippines, and especially South Korea, they're not perfect, but they are sort of democracies. And in each of those, there wasn't a violent revolution. It was, "We've had enough." It's the public sitting down and saying, "That is it." I think your response to that was, "We've all Cold War times." And things have changed since then. [clears throat] We're now seeing the west is the one where we are seeing the erosion of democracy and I think that you're quite that you're quite right there. Now going back again to the uh universal declaration on human rights and the other treaties that came out of just before the second world war and were elaborated on and extended afterwards. Um my focus have been on article 90 which is the one that guarantees freedom of expression. Um right from the start the universal declaration itself quite simple. The covenant which is the document that states sign on to their commitment gets a bit more complicated. So if you look at article 19 there you have point one everyone freedom gr of expression. it doesn't mention in the arts and in any any any media and uh article two further to that what we as human rights people tend to sort of push behind us is point three which is the exceptions. So even though a state if asking is uh committing to freedom of expression, artistic expression, whatever, that same article allows for some kind of restraints on things like uh on public safety, on um uh defamation and and others. It's never been perfect. Virtually every state in the world has in its constitution or whatever protection of freedom of expression. I was working on countries which have said torture is illegal and they were happily tortured for whatever excuse. But that does not make me feel that this is the useless piece of of of legislation. It actually strengthens for me. when you go back to the eur the the European declaration on human rights uh that is the the foundation for the European court on human rights which is really very interesting um in that it's uh it takes a long time it's very bureaucratic it can half kill you going through it can take seven years um but if the the judgment sit on the cases really really consider every aspect of They will look at is this really um preach artist of freedom of expression. If it's a case they of look at the right to a person uh right to religious belief is this is this a breach of rel religious belief etc. And you really get a really good and informed debate on a particular artwork. Um there are many sort of interesting stories you know detail that I found really very useful. So final. >> And the final thing of course is funders are also um directly or indirectly uh censorship. Um they will make demands of the grants that make the uh recipients um maybe change their focus or include pieces and that the instrumentalization is of of arts which I mentioned earlier. Um and in some in other reports that I have been involved in for the Council of Europe for EPA, we really explored that as well. These good nature nice usually Scandinavian uh funders insisting on certain kind of elements to be in the grants and then not even touch the bureaucracy. I mean that is another way that you can exclude people who may not have the uh capacity or the will to go through all the many many hoops to order to get funding. Thanks. Actually, you answered my next question because I wanted you to share with us your involvement with the UNESCO 2005 uh convention framework and uh actually asking you about uh the gap between the language of such international conventions and the live reality of partying. So actually you you said there is a gap but you know like uh so so again like there there is a need to have these legal frameworks that would like uh be a kind of a safety net for at least the minimum standard so to say to preserve the the democracy the freedom of expression and so so forth. But yeah, still there is a gap and is there how we can uh you know uh go beyond this gap you know do you have any like additional insight from your practice or experience and currently I thought you reach your point I started really focusing on artistic freedom beyond freedom of expression uh 10 12 years ago and then people said it's an issue there aren't that many artists in prison women which sort of really does not take into account all the other forms of censorship. Um I've been a bit taken aback um by the success of the message and I think success in quote because now artistic freedom is being cited by governments around the world. what I said in the UNESCO meeting every bar government bar China uh said that they respected artistic freedom a lot of talk about where is the action I'm now reaching to the point of saying okay we need to do something it was mentioned earlier the European act for freedom uh artistic freedom which is a group of uh artists and cultural organizations I'm working on putting together um and this will take a long trying to get through EU mechanisms. But I just tell one quick story uh is that about a month ago my my the Africa researcher in free free news happened to be in a meeting in uh at Zalaba and she was approached by the uh special reporter on free expression for the African Union. And uh this woman said to Lisa, "Um, if you can write me up a resolution on protecting artistic freedom in the next over the weekend, I can put it to the African Union on Monday because we had the text there because we know we do have a model. Lisa and a couple of other African um uh arts uh lawyers had very quickly put it together, handed it to the representative the following Monday and it was approved. We don't have that in Europe. I certainly wouldn't take that be that quick. Okay, this is not a binding document. But what's moving on from there and I think we can also do that in Europe is the same group of um of uh arts activists for one of a better word are now putting together what they call a model law on artistic freedom. is a law you know that could be should be adopted by states and because the next thing when you get nice friendly states come to you they say well what do we need to do we can have a model law it works in Africa it'll work in Southeast Asia it'll work in Europe it's all the same basic principles maybe tweak here and there but very very little and we've already got interest I think it's from the Malawian government to look at so we are seeing oddly enough a kind of movement within uh Africa which is um almost uh moving forward faster than it is in Europe. Although I mean I do have some examples and I can do that later of some good initiatives by various states in Europe because France is top of the league as you mentioned but there are also some other very good ones as well and I can save that for later. >> Harris can you add something maybe from the this region's perspective? No censorship. >> Uh no censorship but also you know about this gap between like because you yourself mentioned that you know we need this legal placement that there is a legal base but you know the the reality is far away and you know how we can bring those you know uh theory and practice closer together for theory and reality. >> Yeah. in order to to answer this, you know, I will still jump a little bit out of the region because we are so interconnected and uh and I will give you the example that everybody is uh u familiar uh so uh my heart is bleeding and I'm sure that all of our hearts are bleeding for the artists who were executed executed in uh Iran by their young people Uh and uh we don't know even how many you know uh and we saw for year two years you know thousands of people on the streets including men you know women young women other women you know all women um struggling and risking in their lives you know uh for for freedom and uh their voices uh the is democracy in the world uh used before pretext which was fake. We know now to go to defend democracy and then they invaded Iraq on the pretext to defend democracy. They invaded white you know to defend democracy but they needed some at least some explanation why they went there. After that we never knew anything about the state of democracy in Iran. Now they didn't need any critics. They went to bomb Iran not because to defend democracy to refer in any way to these thousands of these uh killed people or arrested people you know uh but rather they go and say we go there because we want you to do this about the oil about power and so on you know so this is this change that I'm talking about we make the moral laws unfortunately [clears throat] doesn't work anymore in the in the world of the real power. So the declaration is nice, but since it's not biting, even if it's biting, who cares? But if it's not biting, so it's like a like a nice menu from from the candy store, you know. So um uh we have to to invest our lives. I'm not asking less of you. uh Schiller said in one of his plays he said you can't get life unless you invest your life for the cause we do that and I'm saying I'm not preaching I was practicing this I came back from Amsterdam to the besieged s and I joined my colleagues who were already doing some some some some works in art uh uh in 1992 and we worked together with few international people like SA join few who came from Muslim Americans who came you know to join us in this in this struggle on this in this way on this part we could have been killed every second 24 hours a day for 4 years. A friend of mine, a colleague, an actor, he lost both his legs on this. So it's not an I am not spreading any. I'm not saying tomorrow it will be in your cities. I'm not saying this and I'm not not saying this. I am just saying what I'm saying. And in order to prevent bigger disasters, look at this. The artists in Russia are muted. We expect this. The artists in Turkey are muted. We expect this. But they are democracies. They they have the parliament. They are the democracies. The artists in Israel are muted. Well, they are even better democracy. They were they used to be better democracy than than uh Russia and and and Turkey. But now [clears throat] in their parliament, the minister says, "I'm so happy, you know, to to to have this law that we just pass to kill all these conquers. This is what we hear every day, you know. But even this is not the worst. For me, the most worrisome is that in Germany, you cannot say everything you want to say. That is the problem. I mean obviously this is all problems you know that I mentioned but when it comes to the western Europe when it comes to counseling the female writers or the male writers any writers from the book Frankford book fair or uh having a protocol among the cultural institutions what is allowed what is not allowed to be brought to the stage and that's happening in Germany right now. I guess you know there are Germans here that confirmed it. So uh then that that is the problem because that's what what we what we what we talked yesterday in the past as long as there was this democratic ideal in the United States and Western Europe and that was the cold war mentality. We could have said, "Okay, this is horrible what's happening in Eastern Europe and Soviet Union and many countries in Asia and Africa and South America, but we we will bring all these countries and these peoples to the level of the United States and Western Europe with our democratic ideals. Now these democratic ideals started to crumble and if we don't say the standards of these democratic ideals in Europe it's too late for our entire but in Europe then it will be really problem and [clears throat] that's I think that that that civil society um can reinvigorate it in our communities [clears throat] and we have to be really it's most difficult because I guess most of us here are left leading when it comes to the politics. We also have to recognize that the left sucks. You know we have to we have to recognize cuz we do we are hopeless unless we face this mirror and see that we are not better than the old ladies and granny's you know meeting in front of of of their houses. You know we will not do anything. We have to understand that not everybody who is not on the left is our enemy. We have we all celebrated now the victory of a super right politician because we experience one who was super super super right. As we know there is no super left there is no left. small l of last in Europe we are all comfortable centrists I will stop before somebody assassinate you just kidding sorry I love to hear the the the question >> maybe maybe no maybe S can just continue with the discussion in taxing so how you react because I I have a feeling But yeah, you see it a bit differently. >> Oh, I not not at all actually. I think I was just starting with my optimistic view that in 1984 um for instance um torture was accepted by the public as being okay, particularly in the UK because in the UK we had Northern Ireland troubles. We were torturing uh IRA people. Um but now nobody would admit to supportive torture. Yeah. Um women's rights weren't nowhere on the agenda. That has happened in the last 40 years. Um there's been a drop in the number of uh states that have capital punishment. LGBT were even further off the agenda. So I'm just looking at it. You you mentioned earlier it's a longterm case. It's not going to happen overnight. When I hear people saying, you know, we protested and nothing happened. That's usual. Yeah. When I'm working with the UN and I bring artists or others into the UN sphere, I say don't expect anything to happen tomorrow. Yeah. This is a long long long slog. Yeah. So, no, we weren't really arguing, were we? No. >> No. No. We we wanted to save, you know, the life of our taxi driver. We didn't want him to be so desperate in our conversation because I said when it comes to the the the discussion about democracy in the western world we can finish it in 30 seconds by reminding ourselves that in Guantanamo Bay an illegal prison of the United States 24 years after the arrest there are still people not being charged for anything for 24 years and we conveniently forgot it. We forgot 20 we forgot maybe 50 people. It's about 50 people in the Guantanamo Bay because we don't know what to do with it. You know, in the meantime, there was Barack Obama, uh, the president. There was another President, Biden, who we all pretended that he wasn't demented for four years talking about freedom of speech. Even our beloved guardian pretended that Biden was saying, and we all saw that he wasn't. So yeah, I mean that's that's that that was fortunate city park hotel was was there when when we when we had to stop. >> Unfortunately I wanted it to continue and come on. I'm just going to add some really maybe dull pieces. I mentioned earlier that a number of states in Europe are taking actually quite practical action uh in the recent years and this is a result of a study I carried out for the an internal study I carried out for the council of Europe um at the end of last year where we surveyed well we sent a questionnaire out to all 54 member states council of Europe and to my amazement 26 of them responded some of them a bit useless I'm not going to mention any particular countries but I just saw some interesting initiative is you mentioned France. Yes, it has the artistic freedom and importantly not just the freedom to create but also the create the freedom to disseminate to share your work as well. But it also um has bodies that actively track human rights artistic abuses in their own country and it also confidential mailbox that you can report because a lot of people it's um they would feel very uncertain about doing that. Um they're also looking at transparency and governance for cultural projects and it's also obstructing artistic freedom is a criminal offense because yes France is doing very well there in Portugal you have a whistleblowing channel that might be for things like um I don't know sexual abuse uh on a set but it can also include um having your work centered as well. Um you have Spain is evolving a cultural rights plan. Um and I think recognize that cultural rights for fundamental rights. Um and they've got a working group that's looking at the current laws to remove from it any restrictions on autistic freedom. Let's see how that goes. The blasphemy law when I asked my multi friends are now people running around the streets blaspheming against everybody now they've got freedom to do it. No, they've moved on to other things. Um, and also interestingly going back to uh to Malta, it it changed its uh legislation to specifically protect interestingly satire. I thought that was interesting to see that actually into law. And then you've got um you've got a lot of discussion around fair pay and that is kind of linked to the ability to create freely. I'd be interested to see, some of you probably know that the basic basic law for fair pay the title in Ireland which through a lottery of 2,000 artists were given a weekly salary of I think €350 with no strings attached. I'd be interested to see if they they have already reported they feel freer because of course they're not having to do other work. Um but uh I hope they feel felt freer to create quite controversial works. And then of course you have in countries like Norway and Sweden are talking about arms lengths uh funding. I mean I'm quite skeptical of that but you know that's one thing that they wish to guarantee. Um and uh yeah so there are some practical moves being put in place and yeah they can be ignored as well as respected but I do at least feel that when I'm talking to other states I can say well you know Malta did this thing why can't you do that yeah thanks for all these practical yeah talking I mean you kept asking me about the buttons and I kept talking about everything But uh by talking about the Balkans, we are in the country talking about democracy and self-determination. We are in the country that had to change its name because European Union and NATO pressurized it. So this country that was used to called Macedonia, the Republic of Macedonia, now is called North Macedonia. uh and they did it while bleeding expressing their wish to become a member of European family and yes until today they're not member of European Union neither or nature so I think we should work a little bit on criticality >> okay yeah sorry actually I just realized I I had another question for you related to balcons and uh I realized that even my question to you is repeating the pattern. So actually uh feeling that you know like we feel that internationally the balcons are often seen through stereotypes you know and in this constellation you are representing the the region like balcon means you know conflicts, nationalism, crisis, transition and stability. Of course, now this is more global. So, you know, it's not so unique anymore, right? It's all all over. But still, you know, maybe how how you feel this narratives of specific regions affect uh also the mobility and the reception of artists elsewhere. You know, like when when even artists from this region are invited, they are expected to represent their region and you know what the image of this region is outside. So can can you maybe react on that? But you point it right know that there is a big change now you know in the perception uh although you know all of these that you that you mentioned but still you know people are always asking you is it still boring something like this you know uh but I'm not so so so not so I mean surprised by this but before September 11 during the s and the wars uh whenever I was in contact especially not in the area but in some country western Europe um or America uh I was somehow there were three elements that people were so that people saw me through you know three filters the first filter was I was a victim which means stupid that only victims only stupid people can be the victims that was aware of second that I was a Muslim that's terrible and the third one I was coming from a communist country former communist country which is sweet but so old so you know this this was like uh and then you know you have to to go through all these three filters person in order to save so uh when we were saying this can happen everywhere they said how can it happen after September 11 and after this horrendous terrorist Islamic Islamic terrorist act suddenly the idea that anybody can vict be victim became worrying And [clears throat] then now we see everywhere you know that this idea that we can be victims is is more humanized. I would say you know it's less this cold war mentality uh but this this what you say you know that uh this perception of the balconies mainly you know uh in inspired by Rebecca West and her horrible farms which were so romantic uh that that that I mean she was a nice woman But she really misunderstood every but that was the only material that most of the of the of the people who cancelled the western politicians you know you knew and another inf famous I'm sorry you know I'm pointing out as as you are you are responsible for that but Churchill said too much history you know I mean that was that was so so so pompous but so empty you know in Syria many times many times quoted. Um so uh now now uh we see that uh all these countries you know now uh uh that they have half problems in the EU the other half still waiting hopefully we arrive there you know uh that this this uh this labeling of other people is easier in many ways and we know that we know that so how to how will fight it. Uh the problem is that in many ways these stereotypes [clears throat] become the reality and now maybe it's more true about the Balkans what was this stereotype than than before. Uh so I think these kind of meetings when we meet when we talk when we share the taxi when we eat together when we when we have this genuine exchange that that changes everything and that's why I I would like you know always to come to participate to hear as you noticed I I like to to to speak as well but you know I mean I like this conversation I like this passion I like you know when we when we uh go around and see you know I mean you will notice something which really didn't had before that I I was born in I still feel when I come to Macedonia and come to my country. So you know I mean I I really feel always any part of but for Macedonia there is a special emotion you know we always always enjoy here people are so warm so lovely so welcoming you know and and the city was very beautiful and in 1963 there was a big earthquake massive massive earthquake you know and then the whole country of Yugoslavia solidarity. Talking about solidarity, we put the funds together, you know, the city was uh rebuilt and it was nice city and I heard uh about you know the the architectural and changes unfortunately it became inf famous in the meantime. I was coming couple of times but didn't have time to to to to to explore and today I explored more and you can see it is beyond uh architectural uh mistake. It is complete and total architectural and urbanistic catastrophe. It is so incredibly catastrophic that it becomes interesting, you know, transcends the crime of the days against the taste, you know, and it becomes kind of your body, you know, and this architecture, I mean, you will remember Kas who I really love and his his philosophy about architecture and he was talking about junk space that these junk spaces you know uh uh reflect our uh collective mind which is uh poisoned by the politics by advertisements by this and you see here as the example of the junk space you know this city is destroyed architecture True. I mean this horse it is somehow a little bit safe you know but it is destroyed and it is the real scarf face of what happened to the balcon. The architecture of this city is our sus and some 10 minutes ago you kindly reminded me that we should open the floor. So let's invite some more participants to this taxi. You said you'd love to exchange. Uh so so let's uh open the the space. Uh anybody has anything you know to add a reaction, a question, a comment uh you know um after you heard Harness and Sara or maybe also react keynote uh before that. I I thank you. Thank you. I I can hardly see anybody so can I >> think I have two questions. The first is for Mr. Pash. First my name is I'm happy finally. You see I was here I was a high school student during and now I was following your performances and now I finally see you in this panel. I just want to say I'm very happy I finally see you in saw you in person and um I would like to uh first to comment for western civilization like 10 or 15 years ago it could be distinguished because there was a very rich council country culture then and illustration now there's no illustration everybody can speak what is freedom of uh expression and what is uh uh democracy even the mo most undemocratic people in the world the darkest dictators. So I would like to ask you um if you put in a perspective how do you see do you see the transformation of our region in this direction do you think it was so correct that it as it was in for example in rest of the eastern Europe Europe like in Poland then in uh Czech Republic or in Eastern Europe like some of the biggest names were treated like Gintar Grass and the Milano Gandera but here nobody was illustrated and if we take a better look uh like uh 60% of the members of the in Romania they were exor not in Romania in Eastern German in DDR they were members of the before the second war they were members of the Nazi party and they all went vast majority of them went the iron on curtain fell down. They went to Britain. So now there's a big scandal. Uh they they nobody paid attention to this. But now they see they all be became Russian spies. Do you think that uh maybe for this situation in our region the artist themselves are uh the most to be the ones that should be mostly blamed because they didn't do anything about this and actually we see the biggest name in the region they should all be illustrated and how do you speak about this with your students because here in nobody students are not allowed to speak about this with professors. They cannot criticize the gay the greatest writers who were communists. Yes. And who were communists and who who uh had their um uh career uh uplift because they were collaborating with the secret service. They were not frustrated. And those of them that were illustrated during the government of uh Nicolola, some of them really should have been illustrated. Some of them it was a just a political revenge. They're still uh working and uh to be pretty honest, I think the situation here is really depressive in regard of this. So tell me how how do you do you do these questions with do you talk about this with your students and for Miss Sar White I wanted to ask you what do you think about the film of Vanessa Red the Palestinian do you think that was a freedom of expression or it was rather a violence I think it was a violence because it shows a six-year-old child with a machine in its head hand and uh do you have any more of these issues on your agenda in the UN? I think there's a lot of uh this misuse of children and uh uh modifying of the public opinion with violence uh because um I for example I don't think that Iran was attacked for no reason. I think and even Hillary and Clinton the she supported the action during the summer the second one she didn't because of what Iranian representatives says in said in Switzerland that they will bear them with nuclear weapons and >> sorry we are running a bit out of time so to to make sure that there are other comments can you maybe wrap up and yeah >> and this is it and also about Gaza I think the same because I think that is a con consequence of that virus in the on the festival of electronic music with in which about 600 miners were killed or um or hijacked. So I don't agree with this and I I came at I don't see how anybody normal would agree with this thing. Yes. Well, first of all, I think that your first um comment which is really addressed at IS more detail, but uh we in free news are frequently um approached by people who uh maybe come from the right wing whose uh views are abhorrent to us. Um but we still consider each one of those cases on their merit. um we don't just have freedom of expression for one and not for another. So uh for instance we might use something I think it's the Rome principle that's a very useful uh guide as to u around hate speech who is the audience what is the impact what you know who to to really see what the impact of this these statements are. So we might use those kind of frameworks but we do take each one of these cases quite seriously and sometimes you know we get sort of uh we get kickback for it in the same way as we get kickback when we have been supporting uh artists who might have uh been supportive of uh Hamas or accused of being supportive of Hamas. Um it's a really really difficult area and when we do get these questions we do sit down and take it on merits. We don't just automatically assume this person is right or this person is wrong. Um if we don't do that how can we really defend our own rights if we don't at least take some consideration of what uh what the others are affected. I have to say it's the right wing is the one that who used to over the many years complain most about their restriction of freedom of expression most of the time they were talking rubbish but um uh I suppose the other thing is if there is a possibility to respond um if there is freedom on both side to be able to have the taxi argument or the public argument as well is really problematic and actually it's one of the reasons why I'm still working here 40 40 years on because it's the complexities and the difficulties and the challenges of working on freedom of expression issues and even more so in the arts that keeps me thinking pushing and pushing against those boundaries. But yes, it is a very uh difficult area at times to be diligent. Uh and uh yeah, we live in a constant uh uh hum, you know, there's humming humming on all these words, you know, in social media and everywhere, you know, and uh there is a lot of hate speech. It's horrible, you know, and for everything, you know, not only political but for everything. Uh it's it's gibberish most of the times, you know. It's it's just rubbish, as you say. Um there is one that that's one big level you know to be to be avoided you know the other one is more complicated it's what what I would call uh superficial intelligence we have artificial intelligence and we have superficial intelligence superficial intelligence is when you are on the face where you're all correct you sticks. You have all the the the the clicks in the right place. >> But it's not true. There are people that are >> I didn't understand. >> There are people that are destroying. >> No, no. I'm not talking about those people. I'm talking about this phenomenon you know in which you have this um this uh clivism this this idea that we are active if we are they declare something on on social media and that's that's it on the other side you have people who are in in some [snorts] action I'm not looking here you know I'm an artist look Shakespeare was not ever successful He lived in in the kingdom in the monarch. He wrote some of the most worthy place ever. I was never he was hitting the right vortex. You know he was saying the things in such a powerful way that even today they are for us you know our guard and so powerful but uh he even the queen attended his so the artist addressed everyone we had to address every question if we are also politically engaged which artists have right to do. But you know we here it's not a political uh meeting here it's a social society uh civil society uh meeting and talk about artistic uh uh freedoms. >> Let me finish and then maybe we can we can we can I think sorry we only have uh less than 10 minutes so it would be nice to have another uh you know voice. Yeah. >> And you will be able to maybe discuss in a >> excuse me sir. >> May I just make another comment? Firstly I I really enjoyed the keynote address when you it resonated emotionally and it resonated. My name is Andre Lu. from South Africa, the southwest of Africa, which doesn't always get spoken about in this border. So, thank you for mentioning Africa. I enjoyed the there was a quotation that we must not lose the spaces where we can meet, think and share collective imagination together and that resonated really well in my country and in my continent. And then Sarah, you spoke about the the ability to quickly implement change and policy change in the AU and I think on the continent. >> Anybody else or Sah? >> I just wanted to to thank you for for those comments as well. Thank you. Uh yes. Um so my name is Ilich. I I don't have an answer. I don't know if you do, but uh but I wonder if something can be done about that. If uh if the movement and maybe not even a solidarity, but of um of of partnership uh uh in a common struggle can can take hold um in in Western Europe today uh compared to what is happening in in in in connection to what is happening in Poland. >> Thank you. It's a great uh yeah conclusion. So let's maybe think forward a bit and like imagine you know new scenarios of this uh solidarity actions or you know can you maybe uh I mean please react to what Milita uh shared with us but also as a final thought you know uh I think we all are aware of this u you know realities and but you know how how to move from awareness to action you know like how to you know keep the you know the the movements as are happening in Serbia or Croatia I don't know how we can really share support each other on the international level and maybe just to comment like I was like already a year ago the situation in Serbia was already ongoing and I was at the European networks meeting in Brussels and actually I was I'm personally not into social media myself you know but still I was shocked that I was coming from Slovenia. I needed to present what has been happening for months in Serbia to uh very well-informed you know representatives of established European organizations and I felt oh my god it's all over the media but still I feel this bombarding in the media it doesn't mean that you know uh maybe there is an overdose overflow of information which which has the opposite effect talking about keeping us you know distracted and not focused and maybe not reacting properly. I don't know. This is just my personal reaction. Yeah. that Christian can have you uh maybe uh you know comments yeah the final comments you know really maybe concrete forward looking you know like how you know as I said we are all aware about you know realities but let's how can do you imagine a kind of a form of action that will you know see a better future of whatever time What do you think should >> how we can do it together? >> That's you know how to how to uh maybe how to support having time and space you know and ability to even imagine this solidarity. I think that that this conference is one of us means you know for this because everybody comes from different context different uh circumstances in in their countries and uh in their local communities. So it there is no uh one specific way to deal with with everything was going around. Talking about the balcons, we can also uh uh mention that uh uh uh recently few months last summer uh 500,000 young people came to the concert of uh the singer in Croatia who was very openly propagating uh the Gustachi um iconography let's say ideology I I wouldn't I wouldn't go into analysis of this but 500,000 young people means a lot for the country of 4 million people going on so talking about what's going on in Croatia we have to to to have this in mind as well but this is not an isolated case there are many things like this going on in Europe in different countries and also in different shapes you know so um the the problem with the with um uh our uh nice idea about uh listening each other uh understanding what's going on trying to find evolution in all of this is that it's really slow. So all these aggressive actions they are very very quick you know they come together they have very clear agenda they say we will kill all Jews all Muslims all homosexuals and they do it simple that's that's how this this this uh ideology communicates that is our challenge how to be to to to to confront this ideologies and these practices uh at the same time to keep our democratic uh impulse alive and nobody has the answer but you know this conversation is a part of the answer. Thank you. And I think there is another question. >> It's uh first of all, thank you for the conversation. I really enjoyed it and it's very my question is very in this direction too. I just wanted to ask or comment on what's your thought about uh what practices do you suggest or what practices do you already have see worked on uh young people and how uh to make to educate them first. motivate um part of the education anymore or other practices. It's very hard to see uh and to have this open mind of what happened uh was going on and how to make let's say the right decision or to keep my mind open. So um not a lot of things can affected my the courageous act or how I approach with my art the let's say reality or whatever things um to answer that question I um haven't worked with young people I mean define that um but one thing that really struck me is that um that we don't have not known of any modules within the uh within the cultural and arts colleges the art sector on artistic freedom. Um I did run uh some seminars at Goldman College specifically about artistic freedom in broader terms but also specifically um what is happening in the UK and what kind of uh resources where you can go to if you have support giving advice on what to do if you are for instance about to um perform a [snorts] stage play which might cause some problems. What kind of steps can you take to ensure that you still manage to produce without censoring yourself but at the same time talking and listening to the people who may take insult groups and religious groups or pressure groups talking to the police in the UK you can do this and the police have openly said to us we have a problem sometimes uh between the struggle between protecting people's rights to freedom of expression and at the same time protecting public safety. they don't quite know how to do that to have the discussion. So I think that uh the university apart from Northern College should always have at least one session dealing with artistic freedom and also also in the legal sector as well. Going back to the other question, one of the positive sides of the growing oppression in Europe is that there is a growing resilience of resistance to it. So you have some of you might know the resistance now project which brought together over 200 theater makers to uh protest the growing crackdown across Europe. You've got the European uh suggestion for European act and artistic freedom that I I mentioned earlier. Um kind of boring but the success of uh free news over the years is our documentation. my team every day, every note every small instance. There might just be a press release about um a painting being taken down in a gallery in Harrari or something like that. We will note it. And from this we build a global picture of what the trends are. They're not the obvious trends. Sometimes you begin to see something that is a bit strange. And this is happening in in Colombia and it's also happening here and there. Um so documentation and there isn't that documentation in in Europe. Not one central point is I think you do need several documentation points. There isn't going to be one organization that's going to be sort of perfect at all of it. But we need to document and that is quite um it's actually very difficult to get people to pay for but it does require people sitting and noticing and reporting how small it would be censorship. that I think is really important and I think there are moves and organizations that are looking towards that and I think also these kind of meetings I totally agree with Paris are really important particularly when we're talking about the amorphous um issue of selfcensorship and um the less obvious means that arts in particular are being repressed and also how you reach out to other audiences young people, how do you respond to the uh crazy stuff that you get right-wing and extreme left and also with the other attempts to crack down on certain ideas um uh deplatforming elsewhere which is happening across the board. I think I can I [clears throat] can say only about my my experience with my approach to your to your question how to communicate with the with others and especially with the younger generations. Uh when I was young, you know, uh it meant to me that I was very much fascinated by some examples. Um Ellest Hemingway went to the Spanish Civil War. George Orwell also uh Mandri joined as the German joined American army you know during the operations to to to liberate Europe from the Nazis. Uh Anaka wrote the poetry during the Nazi siege of Leningra. I didn't know ever in my life that these people would be my major stars, you know, to lead me in my life in the way they did because I could not imagine that S or my country would win the war and S would be under the siege. And then [clears throat] the Serbian army bes started this four years you know bombardment and sniping and uh now without keeping the the the city without food without medicines without you know it was horrible now and I was in Amsterdam and I came back to the city and I said I will give all my best to to to do now this is my time now this is my humming great time you know and I answer to this so I believe that pointing to the people who had responsibility who took responsibility you know that's that's the way and the young people if they have the talent and interest some of them don't but if those who have they will they will build their own um their own pace their own part there is one wonderful and horrible and wonderful image from uh from London. Uh after the bombing, the Nazi bombing of London, you know, the British library was destroyed. And u then you know the staff of the British library displayed on on the ruins, you know, uh some some items you know from the library and uh I remember the picture the people very nicely dressed you know in the hands. I mean some men were in this picture uh they were coming to the rise and reading this you know and we had also the our national library uh was completely knocked out you know so you know and and people were still were dressing nicely and when they went to the to the cultural events so I think you know this is the the the the the images that we transfer one thing it's very important and that's what I I finish with this. Uh, war seems to be interesting, you know. Looks like a Hollywood movie. It's interesting. It's a drones. It's a It's uniforms. It's a It's a fast. It's a danger. It's a, you know, bullet, you know. It's interesting. Unfortunately, that's how it looks. But the reality is that the war is the most horrible experience one can have ever. And everything what we need to know about the war is in cover my artists and we from the civil society we have to to to transfer the experience of the war so that people don't want to have the war in their yards. >> Thank you. Thank you Harris because I I was thank you very much for this last part of your conclusion because I was already imagining artists you know transforming themsel into soldiers which is yeah not what we want to see we want but yeah uh and so we were we are uh way over time so I would like to thank you both Har thank you very much and everybody for joining us and for sharing with us And uh like uh as we have known already before we started the discussion, mobility is never new. It's uh it can open space for freedom uh protection, solidarity and cooperation. But it can also reproduce hierarchies and uh these hierarchies are between passports, regions, institutions, economies and between those who are visible and those who remain uh excluded. And uh um if we speak about mobility justice, we also have to speak about artistic autonomy. So we today we learned that it's really uh connected and uh freedom of expression and about the unequal condition under which artists are invited or prevented from taking part. Uh so thank you all and thank you also to our reporter Slana and uh thank you all for contributing and have a a lovely day ahead. [applause] Thank you very much also for the for the facilitation. Thank you very much. >> [applause] >> So um as you know in the program so now uh you are free um and I love this country where you can even meet you know in the auditorium first time and after we can move to uh so the second part of the conversation will take place in the MC youth virtual center it is in your program and we meet there and we start again at 2:30 p.m. Yeah. And you can of course uh as some people requested of course our moderator and speaker are here during the two days so you can also continue your conversation. Thank you very much. [applause]