Are Sails the Future of Cargo Shipping? - DTNS Weekend

Welcome to the Daily Tech News Show weekend edition, gratefully provided to you by supporters of this show. On the weekend, we talk about topics a little bit more in depth. I'm Dr. Nikki. I'm the science correspondent for DTNS, and I'm here with a very special guest today to talk about cargo shipping. Uh, in kind of in reaction to a news piece that came out last November, the world's largest cargo sailing ship, the Neolino Origin, embarked on its maiden voyage across the Atlantic. And this is a cargo ship that also has sales. And we're noticing that there's a trend of wanting to reduce the carbon footprint of shipping, cargo shipping specifically. So, I brought on an expert. Um, Jim Acrimans is here, but also known as my dad. Welcome to the show. Uh, I brought you on today because you know a lot about ships and so we we want to hear about what you have to say. So, hi. >> Hey, thank you for having me. >> Of course. Uh, can you share some of your like qualifications with the audience? Like what do you do and why do you know so much about ships? I guess. Well, I used to be a marine engineer. I'm now retired. So, I've worked at sea for about 30 years and uh also did some construction projects of new new build ships and yachts um with the idea as well of um not um trying to reduce our carbon footprint. And that's the last project I did, a hybrid propulsion vessel. >> So, you've worked on a large sail motor project before, starting from idea to blueprints to actually being on it while it was moving. Um, how did that go? As much as you can talk about it, and you know, did that work out? >> Yes, mostly it worked out. It was a super interesting project with um some really brilliant ideas as far as um saving energy was concerned. So yeah, it was a large uh sailing yacht, the largest sailing yacht with uh carbon fiber freestanding mast, so no rigging. Um some huge sails, but only ma main sails. And then the idea was that the vessel uh under sail would obviously uh save a lot of fuel. And one thing that didn't work out too well was that under sail the the u the propellers there would some drag would would be created on the propellers because of the forward movement and then that would make the propellers rotate and they could then generate uh energy and >> and that part didn't work out >> and that part it did work. The problem was is that that that the ship consumed so much energy that the idea of completely sailing without um using hydrocarbon fuels uh just wasn't uh wasn't wasn't working because of the um the the consumption of electricity on board. You still had to run uh generators. However, it did save a tremendous amount of fuel. Can you give us an idea of the length of this ship generally to compare to this cargo? So the the Neoliner is 136 m long and normal cargo ships are about over 400 m long. Um where would you place your project in that size range? >> Yeah, this ship was 146 m long. >> Okay, so bigger than the Neoliner. Yeah. 20 20 24 m wide and had a displacement of 12 and a half thousand gross tons, which is tremendous. >> And not for shipping, just for fun, right? >> Yeah, it was a motor yacht. Yeah. >> Do they sail assisted motor yacht it's called? >> So, yeah. Okay. So, sail assisted. So, they're they're not like you said, they're not mainly sailing. And these sails, they go up and down automatically with motors, right? Do they still use the sails while they're sailing or do you think they're mainly engine propelled? >> I don't know if you know, but >> uh when the conditions are favorable, they use the sails. Yes, for sure. And >> uh it saves a lot of fuel. >> About how much do you have a percentage? >> Uh it depends. It it completely depends on the weather. It depends on the direction in which they're going. What about a max percentage? >> Well, the vessel could probably sail as far as propulsion goes by itself, but then you'd still have to run a a generator to provide electricity for the for the hotel loads as they call them, air conditioning, lighting, uh kitchens, washers, dryers, all that stuff. >> Okay. Do you do you think that this technology can translate well to cargo ships or is it just a gimmick? Like you you know we talked about this this news piece of this um the the neoliner. Do you think that that's worthwhile? Like from your professional opinion? >> Oh absolutely. I I think it can provide tremendous fuel savings and it's a relatively small investment. uh all relatively speaking of course depending on the size of the vessel that the the size of the sales needed and it's estimated to that it could save between 10 and 20% of uh annual fuel consumption which um then you could have your return on investment within between 7 and 10 years >> and it's worth it >> as like a personal thought do you just think it's like cool engineering wise like as far as the tech goes I don't know how familiar you are with it but tell us about that. >> No no there's obviously different types of sails such as the flattener rotor. There's uh composite sails that are uh retractable and foldable because they need to be otherwise they get in the way of uh u the uh loading and unloading of cargo. Right. But that's all been thought about and that that there's some amazingly smart people working on this and uh it's definitely uh something that um is is finally um uh getting interest from the uh big shipping companies. >> Yeah. And I, you know, I mentioned that this this uh test vessel kind of is almost a quarter of the size of a normal commercial cargo ships. Do you think we'll get like 400 meter plus cargo ships with sales at some point or is that not scalable in terms of like weather or just how big those sales would have to be um to move that kind of volume? >> No, I think uh it's very well possible and uh >> Wow. Cool. it uh it's all relative to the size of the vessel. Obviously, calculations have to be made and as you said it it has to have a certain weather resistant maximum uh wind speeds and stuff but uh these sails and it's all fully automated and they will retract by themselves if the wind speed exceeds a certain number. So um it's it's all scalable uh to to whatever size is required. >> So what do you think is holding them back from doing that now? Is the technology not quite there yet or is it investors or maybe people don't believe in it? Well, it's um this this uh sailing or uh um renewable energy uh um assistance has been going on for a while. The problem is more um first of all regulations. So the the IMO is now really requiring >> uh new marine organization. >> Yes, international maritime organization. Yes, it >> was close. as part of the the United Nations. there's 176 uh member states and um now u a new law will be voted upon that uh uh new build ships have to meet um certain showing at least that they're making an effort in reducing their carbon footprints and uh existing ships um might have to meet certain emission standards which means retrofitting them with modern technology and uh >> do you have some examples? >> Yeah. Well, me meaning examples. >> Oh, so you just mentioned like retrofitting. Um is that like fuel filters or adding a solar panel on deck or like what are we looking at in terms of the technology? >> No, no, I'm I'm specifically talking about sales. >> Okay. where it's now been proven that uh a ship obviously it's every time these ships come into port they lose money because they're not traveling and they can't be uh picking up cargo and stuff like that. So there's a company I believe it's in Norway that is building um prefabricated uh masts and sails that can be uh installed on a ship within 48 hours or something. Uh, >> also retrofitted to pre-existing ships. >> Yeah. And that's very very low uh downtime. >> Yeah. Wow. >> And and so and then they'll be able to save once once the installation's done, they'll be able to save up to to 10 20% uh of uh fuel consumption. And so that's interesting for them because uh obviously that saves a lot of money. Um >> I suppose that only targets a certain category of ship since they're like prefab >> well it it if the study is done say a ship orders this kit of uh sales then somebody's going to come and measure and based on the ship's characteristics and their normal traveling route um they can then do a study uh make a proposal the owner accepts the proposal and uh is willing to pay the price. And then this is all pre-fabricated in a factory and then when the ship is in port, they will then try and install this uh sailing kit uh as as quickly as possible with the least amount of downtime. >> This is wild to me. I feel like we're we're going back to like the pirate ship sailing times. Um so, but we we've talked about sailing. Do you think that's the best form of alternative energy um in terms of you know cost or are there other ones that might be better like solar or hydrogen or other ones? >> I don't I don't believe solar is practical just because the the surface area required for >> to generate that kind of energy >> uh is just insufficient on any ship. It's all obviously relative. The bigger the ship, the more horsepower is required. And >> I guess you're trying to reduce drag by having a narrower ship, but then that less room for solar panels. So that doesn't really work out, >> right? So um there's another study which is obviously controversial but um very uh mini miniature uh nuclear reactors are being studied now >> uh for um as far as you know it's a great idea as far as emissions are concerned because it it is zero emissions. >> Yeah. Uh but um >> zero carbon emissions. I don't know if we count the nuclear waste or not. >> That's the thing. The nuclear waste uh is is is a problem. >> But I don't know. Nobody knows. Well, it's not that nobody knows. What is more important? Is it to reduce carbon emissions or um being not have nuclear waste >> waste or the you know possibility of like exploding? >> I don't know how dangerous it would be. I guess we're pretty good at that since we >> that's the that's the thing >> with this mini nuclear reactors. the the the idea would be to um as a containment zone uh it would be the ship itself. So >> Gotcha. >> whereas obviously nuclear reactors are have been in use by the Russian uh Navy and the American Navy and Russian ice breakers. you know, it's been in in use for for many many years uh so far without any major incidents, although there is a >> that we know of submarine stories that we could dig up. Um so as long as the uh the containment area is the ship itself then they're looking now at um the problem is that no port will would accept a ship a nuclearpowered vessel because the it's too dangerous in case of an accident >> and I guess we we talked about for uh leisure vessels something similar for hydrogen that the problem was not necessarily running on hydrogen but ports accepting hydrogen fuel vessels, right? >> Yeah, there is a a hydrogen built powered vessel which is a combination of hydrogen and diesel fuel. >> Can we tell the name of that one? >> Yeah, that it's actually a Bill Gates developed this project and the the vessel is called Breakthrough. It's been sold in the meantime. I don't know who the who the owner is, but that was the first um build hydrogen vessel. The problem is the the the regulations for safety regulations for for that type of vessel weren't fully um haven't fully been developed yet. So >> again, to try and load hydrogen um first of all, infrastructures don't exist. It's a large quantity of hydrogen. Um the the at the moment crew is not allowed to be on board while hydrogen is being loaded. >> That's problematic. I assume >> it it can only be uh loaded uh from um a a uh a contained area. It's it's very very difficult. And so >> so maybe not the f the future is maybe not hydrogen. Are there any other alternative sources that you think have promise or that maybe people aren't talking about enough? >> Uh yeah, I believe um that uh well there's a combination of things that could make um that could reduce uh emissions a lot. So there's heat recovery. Uh there's some solar in in some instances. >> Heat recovery. Oh, heat recovery is um there's a lot of heat generated by machinery uh on ships whether it's exhaust >> I know that because of how sweaty it is in the engine room on board >> right so uh engine exhaust systems uh cooling water which gets heated up because it's used as as a cooling uh media um u there's numerous uh other things the heat of of the engine itself self, for example, and there is equipment now where you can you can absorb that heat through a cooling media or or a heating media. And just to to keep it in simple terms, um the fluid goes in on one side of of this uh machine and electricity comes out of the other. And >> sounds great. >> Yeah. Um I I can't tell you all the the details because it's um >> anyway so that's one form. Another form is um methanol or a green methanol rather or green bofuel. Mhm. >> So the idea is there that um with bofuel for example um the the idea is that that that you are net zero um CO2s. So um the the the the bofuel that's created from a plantbased product whether it's corn or whatever um absorbs enough CO2 that when you are actually burning it um the the amount of emissions equal equals the amount of um CO2 that's absorbed by the plants while it's growing. >> Oh cool. I like that idea. Uh net zero means >> great. >> So um >> yeah, go ahead. >> And um with methanol um it it produces very little emissions. Um but you know it also has its inconvenience where where methanol is very corrosive. So it's hard to retrofit on a ship. It'd have to it would have to be a new build >> new build >> type vessel and it's um it's quite the materials required to build um fuel holding tanks is very expensive. It's mainly stainless a certain type of stainless steel uh obviously not to be corrosive because that will cause other problems. hydrogen sorry green hydrogen because there's no point in producing hydrogen >> uh with hydrocarbons because the amount of hydrocarbons required to produce hydrogen doesn't make sense. So it needs to be green hydrogen. Um, and the problem with hydrogen is that it's the u the the hydrogen molecules are so small that um they would seep through conventional steel. So again, it needs special materials um because steel is too porous for hydrogen. And >> that's wild. I never thought about what material is it that can contain it out of curiosity. Um I believe it's a special type of stainless steel again. Gotcha. Okay. So there are options. Um you kind of came up as a traditional sailor like zero hydrocarbon like an actual sailing ship person. So is the sailing part the most exciting part or are there types of tech that you know just to wrap up that you're really excited about or you like to nerd out about or you just think are really interesting or you want to mention? >> Yeah. Yes. I I was very interested in this uh flattener rotor which >> Oh, yeah. >> The one that didn't work. >> Well, no, it does work. The problem was it was invented in the 1920s. So, it's not new technology. But the problem is that after the 1920s between the 1920s and later on um uh especially after the war I think oil became very cheap and also the commercial or industrial diesel engine uh made its way up the ranks and uh started um ships started retrofitting uh steam turbines for u for diesel engines because oil was so much cheaper. uh and and easier to uh to to use I suppose. So um that flattener rotor uh fell fell out of um popularity let's say and um and so the diesel industrial diesel engine took over or marine diesel engine took over and now they've revived the flat rotor and um it's quite an amazing >> the project that you worked on the first one to kind of bring this back recently. No, no, not at all. It's just some some reading I did and u and then uh watched uh some videos on on how it works and it's super interesting. Um it's it's not pretty, but uh it it definitely uh works as a propulsion method. And again, it's all relative to the size of the ship. The the bigger the ship, the bigger the the flattener rotor. And >> did I maybe I missed this? Is this the one that that creates energy as as you're running or am I are we talking about something different? >> The like reverse propeller thing. >> Um, no. It's a it's a big cylinder that's standing. >> Please explain the flner rotor to us. Sorry, I thought we were talking about something else. >> Oh. Uh, no. It's a big um cylinder that stands vertically like a mast on a ship. And they do need a small amount of energy to uh to get it spinning. But once it starts spinning um the the vessel actually starts moving because of the magnus effect that it it creates uh while it's spinning. It is important to to have the wind from the right angle. So it's more a a system that's >> so like creates or it sustains momentum. >> Yes. It's It's like a sail. It creates a low pressure on one side and a high pressure on the other because it's spinning. >> Cool. >> Yeah, >> I like that. Seems very steampunk or like sci-fi to me. Okay, >> it is. It's amazing that Mr. Fletner obviously invented this in the 1920s. He he was a brilliant engineer. >> Um, okay. My last question, unless I've forgotten about anything that you want to mention, my last question would be, you know, if you were to build the next, you know, super green perfect ship either for leisure or for cargo, what would you how would you propel it? >> Oh, that's a great question. Uh, thank you. I I would I would use a a number of different uh different things and and obviously sails is is one thing that that can be retrofitted on on most commercial vessels. Um this flatner rotor is interesting, but it depends if it's a regular route where you always have the wind coming towards the side of the ship. Um that would be an interesting thing for example for fairies you know that that do regular routes uh always the same direction. >> Yeah. >> Um with um having the wind on the side one side or the other port or starboard doesn't matter. >> Um that would definitely be um a thing. I think uh uh um hydrogen at the moment is is is just not it's a too dangerous >> kind of scary. Yeah, I wouldn't be comfortable like sleeping on a hydrogen boat. >> Yeah, the rules aren't clear. Um, batteries is possible because the battery technology is is developing very very fast and and batteries are already being used in certain small fairies that don't have to to do very long distances. So basically they're charging the batteries when they're uh with shore power. So when they're plugged in to the dock. >> Um but for long voyages uh I think sales is probably um the the most interesting and it will never be for a super tanker or a or a large cargo ship. um it it will only >> not 100% >> contribute to fuel savings and not not 100% uh zero emissions. But on the other hand, there are a lot of um emission uh reduction technologies out there which the IMO is is going to make hopefully uh mandatory uh in December 2026 >> soon >> because well they were supposed to vote vote on it last year but the Trump administration unfortunately asked him to delay it for a year. >> Okay. So, >> so we'll know more soon. >> Hopefully, um, this year in December, it'll be u it'll be voted on and and it's a specific set of rules that applies to new build vessels and existing vessels obviously will have different rules. There has to be a balance between um emissions and uh companies um ability to to be able to invest and and get a return on their investment. >> Okay. >> So um >> it's a very vast field and and it's very complicated. So we're just touching the the tip of the the iceberg here. >> Iceberg. I think that's a good place to leave it. I think I mean I don't know. We don't talk about shipping often on DTNS, so it's good to just dip in a toe and and see. I don't know how many more ship puns I can make, but rock the boat or something. Anyway, >> um yeah, so that gives us a good overview and you know, listeners, if you have comments about it, please write in and let us know and I'll I'll text my dad and ask him what he thinks. Um, you can find more about DTNS at dailytechnewshow.com and DTNS show on socials. Uh, thank you so much, Dad, for coming and giving us this info. Um, for me, you can find my infer information at nicolakrians.com and the same handle on blue sky. You probably have heard by now I've started a new show with Wu called Technical T. Our next episode is going to be about eponyms. So, please come and check that out at the beginning of the month and we are technical. So, thank you for supporting the show at patreon.com/dtns. We will be back with regular news episodes on Monday. And until then, have a great weekend. The DTNS family of podcasts, helping each other understand. >> Diamond Club hopes you have enjoyed this broker.