Ann Summers CEO: The Heartbreaking Story Of One Of Britain's Richest Women! Jacqueline Gold CBE

The D of a CEO live, my live show, my live reincarnation of this podcast is coming on tour and it's coming to a city near you. There's a link in the description below. Put your email address in and I will email you when tickets go on sale. Can't wait to see you. [music] I know what I've done has been culture changing and I'm super proud of that. All hell would kick loose if that happened today. I was poisoned by my nanny. I've had a bullet through the post. It was so important to me not to feel like a victim. You know, anybody that's listening will not know the crusade that I've been on. I don't really know what to say. Honestly, I feel speechless. Yeah. Gosh, it's it is hard. I was [music] diagnosed with breast cancer. When I spoke to the consultant, he said [music] Jacqueline Gold, she is one of the most successful business women in Europe. She's also one of the wealthiest women in the UK and she's certainly one of the most inspiring people I have ever ever met. Just remarkable. But her road to success is one of the most devastatingly misfortunate, tragic, heartbreaking roads I think we've ever heard traveled on this podcast. Imagine me speechless. This podcast made me speechless. Not once, not twice, but over and over again. She is and has been the CEO of Anne Summers for decades, a company that, if you don't know, is known for popularizing sex toys, dismantling the unhealthy, archaic stigmas around sex, and starting a crusade to make sex a more widely accepted part of all of our lives. But her story twists and it turns. The lessons, the courage, the resilience, the heartbreak, the pain. This should be a movie. You just couldn't make it up. Jacqueline, thank you for your honesty. Thank you for your courage and thank you for the inspiration. I know that it will stay with me for a lifetime. Without further ado, I'm Steven Bartlett and this is the diary of a CEO. I hope nobody's listening, but if you are, then please keep this to yourself. [music] [music] I really hate when um podcasts are quite predictable. However, I've noticed that in my podcast, I've continued to start in a very similar place. And it's I can't get away from it. And the place that I always tend to start is about the person that sat in front of me's early years and how those early years have shaped them. And as I was reading about your story, I actually read that you'd said that. I read that you'd said your early adversity heavily shaped who you are today and who you became and influenced the career journey you took. So, I have to start there and I feel like I always start there. But can you tell me about that early adversity that you're talking about? Yes, I can. Um, I had a really uh unconventional and challenging childhood. Um, my parents split up when I was 12. My sister was a lot younger than me. She was 7 years younger than me. So, it didn't impact her in the same way as it impacted me. Um, I found it it it was quite traumatic. I actually stayed down a year at school because of the impact it had on me. Um, and at the same time, my mother moved in with her boyfriend, um, who sexually abused me between the age of 12 and 15, you know, and that combined with a mother who was overprotective, you know, wouldn't let me or my sister just do anything and play in the normal way. um you know, we weren't allowed to go to sleepovers or parties or anything like that. But then when it came to this abuse, which I believe she knew about, um you know, we were left in the most vulnerable situations, um you know, she was quite a a complicated woman and you know, we were in a a pretty tough situation. So for me later in life, in fact I say later in life, I probably was about 15, you know, finding financial independence was really important to me because that was my escape. H [snorts] it's hard to it's hard to imagine a parent knowing about about that especially as you say one that was so risk adverse was so keen to keep you in the house to not let you outside because you might fall into a dangerous situation but would turn a blind eye to that I mean it you know I've tried to rationalize this myself numerous times because she was she was quite ill in her later years. So I didn't challenge her. I just felt she was and even in her earlier years I just felt I always felt she was very vulnerable herself. Um you know just she she once said to me if I could live in the middle of a field with no one around me I'd be happy. So she herself wanted to be protected in one sense, you know, she she wouldn't even let my sister and I play in the front garden in case we were kidnapped. I mean, it was, you know, totally irrational. And yet stayed with a man, you know, I remember overhearing her on a in a phone conversation with her sister after he'd returned after a year's break. And I remember hearing her say, "Yes, I know he's a bastard, but you know, I I don't want to be on my my own." It was just a toxic, you know, a toxic relationship, a toxic environment. Um, and I and you know, I I have forgiven her. Um, but I feel very sad for for her and and and the life that she lived. Did she ever admit to knowing that her partner was abusing you? No. Did you ever ask her? I didn't ask her, but there were many occasions when I called out for help. Um, and a couple of occasions that she either witnessed or overheard me telling someone, you know, I was told off for telling lies. Even my aunt has later told me that she saw something going on. She told my mom about it who played it down. So there were lots of situations where it was clear to me that she would have known. Do you know much about her upbringing and what might and what um the early sort of experiences that shaped her? No, I mean I I think that I mean my grandmother was lovely. Um, my grandfather was an authoritarian. Um, you know, her sister grew up, you know, perfectly well, but she she was very was was very insecure. Beautiful woman, you know, very elegant, but you're scared of life. And your younger sister, you've got a younger sister? I have. Yeah. She's uh 7 years younger than me. Fantastic businesswoman, great people person and somebody who really, you know, I admire her so much. Vanessa, we have a great relationship and she's funny and engaging and yeah, I mean, she's my best friend. You grew up in the same household with her, but you turn out to be very different people and you're only a couple of years apart because you talked there about at the very start about how just being a couple of years apart in those ear experiences, even if you're in the same household, can create two completely different people cuz they both experienced very very different things because of [clears throat] age. And I I really resonated with that because um like even in my in my childhood, my family became on the verge of bankruptcy when I was um old enough to know what was going on, but my older brothers and sisters kind and also when I was probably most influential sort of easily influenced like adversity showed up in my childhood when I was when I was of like the ripest of ages. Um, and so I'm very very different from my brothers and sisters. And I I kind of felt that from what you said there. The difference between you and Vanessa was just a couple of years off, but um, you experienced very different things in those early years. Yes. Um, I think Vanessa was also a bit more outspoken than me. And I think that, you know, as a child, maybe it was because of the way my mother was and the fact that, you know, for my first um seven years of life, I was an only child and uh I don't know, but I I was very I was very shy. And I remember my mother used to if we went on a beach holiday, she used to draw a circle in the sand, put me in the middle, and I wasn't allowed outside that circle. Um, so I I never really had opportunities to make friends with other children and engage with adults. I was I always felt quite lonely bizarrely whereas I think the second child always you know has it easier in my opinion um as I keep reminding my sister and so you know she just was that much more confident that more much more outspoken so I don't think she was ever you know likely to be a a target I'm not saying she wasn't but because we we we haven't spoken about it, but I think she's less likely to have been a target of of of abuse than I was. Um, you've never spoken about it. Well, we have spoken about it, but I don't think she wants to she just doesn't want to talk about her experience, fine. Which is which is, you know, I respect that. And, you know, and everybody deals with adversity in different ways. Um and you know no matter how successful somebody is or privileged they may be you know it doesn't change you know the the challenges that we might experience along the way and everybody deals with them in different ways and for me it was so important to me not to feel like a victim. I didn't want to feel like a victim. I hate the word. And that's not to say, you know, that other people handle it wrong. It's just for me. I just wanted to, I suppose, gain something from that bad experience, you know, whether it be proof that I can, you know, and actually I've experienced adversity throughout my life. I've I've been quite unfortunate, you know, in that way. Um I you know I lost my son when he was six years old. Um I was poisoned by my nanny. I've had a bullet through the post. So I've had a number of challenges subsequently to the childhood experience. But certainly just going back to that the childhood experience did I believe shape who I am today. I think it drove me to want to go out and work hard. Uh have that financial independence, you know, I was always curious, always talking to people, always looking for inspiration, I guess. And so much of it, and just thinking about that as well, so much of your work now because I've, you know, I've been through your story multiple times and looked at the way that you've made your decisions and so much of it is is centered on that idea of like empowerment and giving, you know, empowering people to be free from whatever their prisoner might be. And sometimes prisoner is society, sometimes it's social narratives, whatever else. But, um, I've really I deeply respect that about you cuz I read there was a day in your story where you confronted your abuser and that ended up being a really pivotal moment. Could you [clears throat] tell me about that? Yeah. Um, gosh, it's it is hard. Yeah. [clears throat] Going back and remembering those periods in time that you you just want to uh park away. But I was 15. I'd been trying to plan how I was going to do this for some time. But obviously you lack the courage. You know, I was a very young 15year-old as well. Um, and I didn't want to, you know, generate anger. I mean he was the rous that my mother used to have. The coercive control that I witnessed made me want to make this as um you know easy as possible. So in my childish way I decided to tell him it wasn't fair on mom. So it was I was trying to I mean is this something we do as as girls? I think girls are brought up to be helpful and to please people please and this is you know I'm sure we come on to empowerment but that was the you know that was the problem. I was brought up to be well behaved and to be a people pleaser and take John up a cup of tea and you know he likes you and this all this type of stay inside your circle. Yeah. Um so for me the best way to handle this was to help him not lose face or not feel bad or so. And he he just he didn't really say anything. He just shrugged. Um, and that was it. It was as easy as that. And it never happened again. But I didn't when I look back or if I was talking to my, you know, young self now, I didn't realize, you know, that I could stand up to him and that I was perhaps more powerful than I realized. I'm disappointed as an adult that I felt I had to approach it in the way I did. But then I forget that that, you know, I am an adult. I was a child then and I was incredibly brave. You know, I could have done nothing. Um, and I did I was able to bring it to an end. Um, and you know, whilst it's very difficult to forgive somebody that has put you through that much pain and trauma in your life, um, as a person, I have to take positives from anything negative that happens to me and everything that I've been through. That for me is how I survive. That's for me how I better my life, how I go on to better things and you know I turn my focus to work and to ambition and being curious and learning different things and then just seeing this opportunity which actually turned out to be a great opportunity to empower women. You know, a lot of people are, well, gosh, you went through that abuse. Why would you go into something like this? But there was an opportunity there. And, you know, fast forward, I mean, I'm 61 now. I was 21 when I started. So, fast forward 40 years. You look 25. [laughter] You say all the right things. Yeah, but you do. [ __ ] it. You're 61. [ __ ] me. I'm mental. That's crazy. So, I know what I've done has been culture changing and I'm super proud of that. I really am. And, you know, I've, you know, anybody that's listening that is 25 will not know the crusade that I've been on for the last 40 years. I mean, it's you just wouldn't believe that you you know what you couldn't do and what you what you couldn't do then, what you can can do now. and the changes and attitudes of, you know, the generations of today compared to the generations then. I really want to talk about that because I know you you had some really tumultuous experiences going on that crusade and I love I love um talking about shifting perceptions and and also we've seen in our lifetime how quickly a lot of perceptions have shifted around like you know equality and sexuality and gender and um the crusade that you you know led I think is is has been a really important one um probably more important than a lot of people realize. Um, I wanted to pick up on one thing you said about you being shy. You know, the what you've gone on to do in your career and life and the crusade you've led is not one that would, you know, one would think would be led by a shy person. The person that I've met today doesn't seem to be a shy person necessarily. To me, seems to be one of conviction and confidence and belief. In hindsight, how did you go from being that shy person that was kind of coddled um at an early age by a mother that was risk adverse drew a circle around you in the sand, didn't let you off the front garden to being the person you are today? What is it that ch what is it that does that to somebody? Um well, I I think there's a few things around this because um I don't think this is exclusive to me. I think a lot of women especially uh experience this. I think well, first of all, I I I might be wrong, but I don't think we're born shy. I think it's our situational environment that creates that. And secondly, you can be shy but still have fire in your belly, which is what I had. You know, I had that ambition and that burning desire. And when you have that passion, you you have to release it. You can't keep it inside just because you're shy. And um I think there were many things that I did. You know, I remember in my very early 20ies holding a conference, my first conference for my army of of um sales ambassadors, which I had about 500 in my first year for Anne Summers. Fran Summers. Yes. And I held this conference at the um Grand Hotel in Brighton and I thought it was a great idea when I planned it because the whole idea is to engage with your teams and tell them about what you're doing and what your mission is and get everybody involved and on the journey and it was sort of you know a few hours before I was going on stage I was thinking oh my god [laughter] what am I doing because this was like [clears throat] horror to me. I had no experience and I was, you know, absolutely terrified. But if you're talking about something that you are passionate about, I think it changes it. It's not the same as doing a best man speech or, you know, getting up at school and doing your first speech. when you're talking about something that you really care about and that you live and breathe, once you get out there and you got that first sentence out the way, I do think it changes you. Yeah. And you know, that's what it did for me. So I I am a great believer that courage comes first and I've always had a lot of courage and I think if you have the courage eventually the confidence will come. Yeah. So yeah from what you said there like the courage is creating is forcing you to create evidence for yourself. Yeah. It's forcing you to step outside your comfort zone and then we all know anyone that's successful knows that when you do great things happen. Yeah. and your comfort zone then expands, becomes [clears throat] a bit bigger and then you step out of then. Exactly. Interesting. Um, so you said there about work and you've always had that drive. When I was reading through your story again, I I heard about you one of the things your mom did allow you to do was to work. Um, and so I was I was thinking about the the relationship work you then had in your life from a very early um from a very early stage. If if work was the place that you were allowed to go to to leave the home, then was it was it an escape from home? Was it like a the place of freedom in your life? It was so freedom. I mean, well, first of all, I can't tell you the countless times I'd asked her if I could go to a sleepover or a, you know, party or just things that normal kids do and it was always no. Um and there was another sort of form of abuse was this they her and her husband had this her new husband had this task mask taskmaster approach to everything they did and it was you know there was no end to it you it's never like you could ever finish the tasks and they were like digging the garden um they weren't like cleaning the kitchen they were like digging the garden bringing logs up. You know, it was very it was manual labor for my sister as well. And it was like these jobs will never get done, so we'll never be able to go out. It's a bit like Cinderella as I'm telling the story. It sounds a bit like that. Um, but she seemed to accept things that were traditional. So, going to work was something or getting a Saturday job is something that people do. So, that was okay. So I couldn't get a bus into Brmley to meet up with friends, but I could get a bus into Westerm to go and work at the spinning wheel as a waitress. So did you look forward to that? Absolutely. And of course there weren't the rules then. You know, I was working at 14 years old. I I worked in a bar at Big and Hill Airfield. I did waitressing. I worked in a hairdressing salon. So um yeah that that was a a release. Did you try and work all the time [laughter] more and more hours over time? Yeah. And actually it compromised my schooling because I I didn't really invest in my schooling. I just wanted to work. So I didn't go to college or university or anything that I expect my daughter will probably do now. Was there um and I would I do want to to to talk about some of these other points around empowerment, but was there any physical and I don't think people think about this enough, but one of the things I've I've got were increasingly fascinated by was the connection between like psychological trauma and physical impacts. So the on our physical health and how the two are somewhat interlin and was there any sort of physical uh symptoms or consequences of that psychological trauma that reared their head. So interesting you say that because I have a stalker um and his mother many years ago many years ago. And and the impact was tinitus. I had tinitus. Yeah. And all through the cuz they they caught them, it was went to trial, they were um found guilty. I mean it was it's another I mean it's a crazy story. It's a crazy story. C can you describe what tinitus is when you get the ringing in the ears but actually I just had this marching. It was a constant marching and it doesn't stop. So when you go to bed you've got you know I had it. Oh did you? So, I know very few people will know what tinitus is like unless you've had it because it sounds trivial. If I say to you, "Oh, it's just like a ringing in the ears or whatever." People go, "Oh, that's fine. Like, I've been to a gig before, my ears have run." But you get like day two into it and I So, I got tinitus for right so I go on Google, what's this ringing in my ears and why won't it stop? And it must have been about 6 years ago, seven years ago. And then you get into day three and you're losing your mind. And I'm on these forums and people are like, "People commit suicide because of because of it." And I I kind of understood why. Yeah. It was like a form of torture. Sleep. You wake up, it's constant. You're eating lunch, your ears are ringing, and there's no end to it. There's nothing you can do to stop it. So, fortunately, you know, talking about my experience with it. One day, I don't really know what happened, but your sinuses are connected to your ears. It's what I came to learn when I had tenitis. Tenitus. And I think it must have been because my sinuses were blocked cuz on day nine of my ears ringing it just stopped and some people live with it for life. Yeah, I mean I was very fortunate. I think I had it for about 3 months and then it stopped. So I was very lucky. I mean some people have to live it live with it. Um, but mine was definitely brought on by that awful experience and obviously the abuse I I I did I mean I had severe sorry to be graphic but severe constipation that um I look back and I think was you know brought on by my own trying to be in control behavior. just remembered as you said that. I remember going to the doctors about it and blurting out to the doctor what was going on at home and the doctor and I said and I'm really worried cuz I've got a younger sister and the doctor said to me, "Um, okay, do you want me to get social services involved?" I Oh, no, no, no, no. Cuz you know, as a child, you think you're going to be in trouble. You think you're going to be taken away from your mom. And she said, "Okay, that was it. Oh, [ __ ] I mean I mean all hell would kick loose if that happened today. I don't really know what to say. Honestly, I feel speechless cuz you just can't imagine an adult hearing that these days and and posing the question to you about next steps. Mhm. Just think that just seems unthinkable. perceptions have changed a lot, haven't they, around sexual abuse and um and and and also victim blaming, which I think was was a was a really destructive habit that society had, which fueled the problem, not having a safe environment to to speak, thinking that you'd be blamed or, you know, absolutely. I think there still are challenges. I don't think this is a problem that's gone away just because we're all more vocal. I did a a a a project recently and just going off piece for a moment, I was quite surprised about consent and I I I did a workshop on consent and uh I think there's a lot that we don't know, we don't realize and I did a a piece around um talking to university students and you know some girls go to university expecting to be assaulted. So, I do still think there is a lot a lot more education that's needed. And maybe that's because I'm the mum of a 12-year-old daughter. So, things like that sort of resonate with me more. I've got to be honest. Um I completely agree and I think as a man um there is a ton of education that we need to understand this topic um from the other side of the spectrum as well because um a lot of my friends um find themselves in a place my male friends where they are like naive and they know they're naive to what consent means. I I really agree with that. I really agree with that and I think that I just think there should be more emphasis in schools. We should be talking about consent more. I interestingly when I did this project I met a trans man and he was telling me that when he was a woman he experienced certain attention, unwanted attention and obviously saw it from a female point of view. And then when he transitioned to a man, he was just blown away by some of the things that he was hearing from a man's point of view. So um yeah, that that was quite uh enlightening and interesting. Those are the conversations we need to be having. For sure. For sure. you um you said that you talked earlier on about how you know hard times shape you and I you know it's clear that from everything you've said that resilience is one of your superpowers. I've I've I've actually heard I've heard that written a few times when people talk about you. What does that mean to you? Resilience. I think that's true. I I I think I am a resilient person. I think um for me the battle is won before the war has even started. So, for example, I was diagnosed in 2016 with breast cancer. I remember my husband and my sister when they were first told the news, I could tell they've been crying and I'm saying, "Come on, guys. You know, I need your support here. We, you know, we need to put a strategy together. We've got to put a plan together because that is how that's my mindset. My mindset has always been that way. There's got to be a solution to this. you know, there's got to be something better that can come from this. It was a brutal journey. Um, there is no doubt about that. Um, but I remember saying things to myself like when I have my next scan, the cancer's going to be gone. And when I had my next scan in the January, it had gone or it wasn't on the scan. I then had an operation in the in the July I think it was uh a lumpctomy and I was told I was all clear and that there was a one 0.1% chance it would come back because I'd had such a good response to treatment. Unfortunately, I was in that 0.1% and it did return a couple of years later and I had a mistctomy. And when I spoke to the consultant, he said it's not curable, but it is treatable. Uh because it's now gone from stage two to stage four, which was, you know, which was devastating to hear. And of course I I immediately said to him, well um you know what are the chances of it being cured? I know you're saying it it's not curable, but we've all heard of people, oh yes, but you know that's 0 0 0.1%. And my attitude is well if anyone is going to be that 0.1% is going to be me because I have to think like that. That's what helps drive me forward and get me out of these situations. If I could have been that 0.1% where it went wrong, I can be that 0.1% where it goes brilliant. And actually, I'm right now in what they call excellent remission. So, you know, I'm still got my am I still have ambitions for more, but I am feeling blessed at where I am. And I think that has a lot to do with with my outlook on life. And that's the learning, you know, when nobody wants to wish this, you know, serious illnesses or life-threatening illnesses on ourselves. But for me, I have to find the opportunity in that. Well, where's where's the good thing? Where's the opportunity? Well, it has made me live a much healthier life. You know, I do appreciate things so much more. You know, I am a different person. I put, you know, my priorities have changed. I love the female empowerment side of what I do and I want to invest more time in that. I think this is far more important to me and I think finding your passion is so so vital whether you are going through health issues or not in everything that you do. That bias towards optimism that you describe like you [clears throat] know it sounds like you could be thrown in any sort of situation and you'd be looking at the as you say like the 0.1% chance of a positive outcome. That's a really really remarkable thing, right? And you've you know you've been the CEO of a tremendous company. You'll you'll be able to look at your organization and see those people in your organization that have that same bias to optimism. When all goes wrong, pandemics show up out of nowhere. They have that bias towards optimism, which is we can. And you know, like it doesn't even matter if we can't because all we can focus on is we can. That's the only choice we have. But you've also probably seen the negative the other side of that, right? And um I guess my question to you is like from what you've seen in your organization and you know even in your life, how important is that? Um and how costly is the antithesis of that? Oh gosh, there's a few answers to that. First of all, in my personal life, the first thing that comes to mind is my daughter. So when she was in junior school, every morning without fail, as she left, I my husband would take her to school and I would say, "I can." And she would shout back, "I know I can." So we did that every morning. And I didn't want her to grow up having the that feeling of lacking in confidence and being so painfully shy. I just wanted to empower her as much as I possibly can. So it was just that was just a little thing I used to do. I think um you know the pandemic is a really good example. I mean I remember I mean at our peak we had 146 stores uh you know over the years obviously more people are going online. we've reduced our our store portfolio and then of course the pandemic. Anyone having leases had to uh negotiate with their landlords and you know we had to suddenly be told that all of your stores had to be closed. I mean I never I can never forget that moment. It was heartbreaking actually because it was like my baby, you know, to suddenly be told that was incredible. And then of course you you're thinking how am I going to tell my teams we value our people so much and this was how are we going to talk them through what's you know the plan because we had to make difficult decisions we had to let people go but bringing those people on that really difficult journey was so important. talking to them regularly, reassuring them, telling them what our plans were, how we were going to get through this. Um, was it was incredible actually. And a yes, we all worked really hard. Everybody worked so hard, but they achieved things I never thought we as a business could achieve. I mean, our sales ambassadors, you know, went from 4,000 to 20,000 in 3 months. Um, because we were doing a fantastic job. Um, I mean, you may say differently, but I think we were doing a fantastic job on social engaging with our customers and, you know, keeping the conversations going and being relevant in what was going on. And you won't be surprised that we completely sold out of penis pasta. Penis. Sorry, one second. [laughter] Take a ad break there for peanut. Penis pasta, of course. Okay. All All the supermarkets sold out of pasta and we were pushing pasta and toilet rolls. We were pushing our penis pasta, which is pasta shaped like penis. Okay. We were doing and still are doing some amazing things. It was a very creative time. Very innovative. Forced innovation. Very creative and innovative. Quick one. On this podcast, I've spent a lot of time talking about how Hule has changed my life, especially as someone that lives a very fast-paced lifestyle that wants to also be healthy and not, you know, reach for convenient food. Having a nutritionally complete um partner in my life like Hule has um led me to being in the best shape of my life, but also has given me high energy, has made me feel good, has helped my mental health. However, this week I wanted to do something different because every week I bang on about the impact it's had on me. I received a DM from somebody this week um from a young man who picked up um some Hule a couple of months ago after listening to the podcast, which makes me feel amazing. Um, and they described to me how having hu and having a convenient alternative to the junk food they were eating has had a tremendous quote tremendous impact on every area of their lives that they would never have foreseen before. Um, and this [clears throat] person has continued to send me videos and sometimes pictures of them on their Hu journey and their transformation. And for me, that is why it's a pleasure to have Hule as a sponsor, a company and a brand and a product that I genuinely believe can help people change their lives and start getting nutritionally complete in their their dietary choices. You started working at Aners when you were 19 or I did. Yes. How did that happen? So, I was working at Royal Dorton. I had no I had no business experience. I had retail experience, but it wasn't, you know, Rald Dawn is a fantastic brand, but it was too quiet and I wanted a much buzzier environment. They offered me management, but I, you know, it wasn't really what I wanted to do. So, I was creative as well. So, I wanted I guess there was that creativity. Um, and I I worked at Anne [clears throat] Summers, which was my father's business at the time. And they were he had sex shops and um a mail order business, which was like literally tearing a coupon out of a magazine and posting off what you wanted. I was only working there as for work experience. And I was invited to um a Tupperware well it wasn't Tupperware it was Pippa but it was sort of like Tupperware style party and it was closed and it was in a council flat in southeast London in Tmsme and I remember driving there in my mustard colored mini. Um I was just you know just these two women invited me. They knew what I did and I was just a guest. Um, and they were showing around the clothes and and then somebody got I do remember actually having to draw a picture of my husband's meat and two veg on a piece of paper on top of my head and I was sort of thinking this is not how I imagined my career starting but it's uh it's an interesting story to tell [laughter] and it was women at the party sort of knew I worked at Anne Summers and said look why don't you do an summers parties we want to we'd love to be able to spice up our sex lives but we're we're too embarrassed to go into a sex shop. And I thought actually this is quite a good idea. So I got some of the toys and lingerie from the from our Tottenham Court Road store we had at the time. Um, I held a few parties myself and uh, and I remember guests at the party sort of passing the product round like this cuz obviously it was switched on and they were sort of excited um, curious but incredibly nervous at the same time. Whereas now, of course, they just want to know what sizes they come in, what speeds they are. It's completely different. Um, but they were having fun. they were enjoying themselves that they were talking about their relationships, you know, they were just being open and relaxed and candid and I just thought this this is something completely different. I've never seen anything like this. You don't even women's magazines aren't this candid. It was that point I thought if this if I go forward with this, it's going to be for women only. you know, you're just not going to get that same atmosphere with with men and also a mixed um group. I just thought women would feel uncomfortable. Uh there'd be other partners' husbands there. You're showing personal product. This isn't this isn't going to work. And I think that was actually one of the best decisions I made. So, of course, today it's sort of like a a female institution, but we had at that time there was, I think, 10% of women going in the stores. And I remember taking this idea to the board, walking down this sort of what felt like this long corridor into this room full of all men, all middle-aged, all in gray suits. Um, and telling them about this party I'd been to and these parties that I'd held and, you know, we we need to do something different. We should do and Summers Summer's parties. I had no business experience, by the way. just all from the heart. And uh I remember one businessman at the meeting, Ron Coleman, he's dead now, so I can talk about him. [laughter] He stood up and he threw his pen down on the table and said, "Well, this isn't going to work, is it? Women aren't even interested in sex." So I instantly thought, "Well, actually, this has got a lot more to do about your sex life than it has about my idea." Wow. Um and you know luckily they agreed to to invest in some advertising. [snorts] So um I was advertising in the evening standard once a week and I wasn't allowed to put erotic parties. I had to put exotic and I couldn't say ladies only because of all the rules. But I used to hold like um a seminar once a week at the Strand Palace Hotel and I'd go up there, meet with people that had seen the advert, probably about 25 people in the room, talk to them about my idea. Obviously, the men I had to ask leave, some would actually get up and leave themselves. They, you know, it was nothing had been done like this before. And I remember I still remember having those conversations. And I remember remember one couple, it was two women wanted to do the parties together, bored housewives living in Chelsea, not the demographic people would necessarily expect. And then all of a sudden, people were popping up, groups of people were popping up in different areas. So I recruited the two girls in Chelsea, I recruited the eight women at the party in Tesme. Then what I would do is I would advertise in those area areas. concentrate the advertising in those areas and it really was self-propagating. Then later when we decided to right, we're ready now to open stores, reopen stores with a through a female lens, it was like a an induction into the brand. So, um, and it still is, I think, to a degree. It's incredible. And something you said at the start there about being naive in business, I thought was really compelling because so much innovation seems to come from being naive. Yeah, I agree. I had no experience, but it that no experience forced me to rely on feedback from my customers, you know, something we don't always do enough of um because I had no choice. and what I saw as a disadvantage actually turned out to be, you know, one of my and the and the brand's main benefits because that's in our DNA now. That's what we do. It's really interesting. I've never heard a phrase like that that you were because you didn't have experience or a ton of knowledge. You were learning from feedback as opposed to like convention. Convention doesn't create new things. It just more of the same. Yeah. And you know, as a woman in business, I was only 21. I was quietly spoken. Not how people would expect a business person to be alone if you like in the sex industry as it was then. I don't sort of think of it that way now. There was so much negativity. So from business people, I would have comments. Um [laughter] I remember one guy owned a chain of um estate agents saying to me, "This isn't going to work. It's just a fad. Give it two years, you know. And I think people were so used to doing things how they'd always done them. And we know that, don't we, when we and I'm moving on a few years and if it's okay to go off piece again, but no worries. You know, when you think of heritage brands like Walworth, you know, doing things the way they'd always done things. That's why I say the pandemic, there were positives because it it forced those companies that have done well to do things differently. [clears throat] You talked about the phase in your business where you started opening these stores. um in that era, you know, if someone was to open a a shop that was perceived as being just a sex shop in my neck of the woods, you know, when there was a huge amount of stigma towards it. Can't imagine people being so happy about that. It wasn't the people. It wasn't if you if we wanted to go into a I mean I'll give you an example of loads of examples but you know Brmley um we really wanted a presence in in Brmley um Glade Center and I actually remember you know I was I went with the landlords and the um the center and you know and they were going right well you know we could do it we could do it if if we change the if you could change the name from Anne Summers and there a a brand bias. There were many, you know, center management that would say over our dead body. And someone did someone send you a bullet in the post? Yes. What the [ __ ] Why did they send you what? Uh God, I wanted to open a store in Dublin. The sales per um per head of parties were higher than they were in the UK. So I knew that um you know there was there was an appetite and we'd found this site in Okonnell Street which admittedly was a bit of a controversial location because it was right opposite the GO building. um GPO and so you know it's where there were you know there was violence and clashes and the Dublin Corporation which is the equivalent of our council in fact they might be called council now um were email uh not emailing me sending me letters you know putting me under pressure not to go ahead saying that they had another location back street but I didn't want to be in the back street I wanted to be accessible so They um in fact it was me. I invited them over to the UK. I just wanted them to see our stores to see that we weren't trying to shop people that we you know we were trying to empower people. We were trying to make it comfortable for women empower women in the bedroom but despite showing them round and they they in the after so during the morning they were shown around by my retail director. In the afternoon, I invited them to a board meeting and their names were Kieran and Allan. Kieran couldn't look at me. He sat he sat there without any eye contact at all. Allan sat right next to me right here telling him every, you know, they were really good cop, bad cop. He's trying to tell me about his sex life. And I said to them, look, you know, it's very clear you have your own agenda. You're not going to change your mind. There's no not much point in us carrying on here. And Allan said to me, his parting words were, "Well, I hope you'll understand that we cannot be held responsible for what might happen to you." Which was a very chilling thing to say. And there was loads of uh negative media because there was all this big hoo-ha about an summers um going to O' Connell Street. And I'd never done any media before and I was uh invited on the Late Late Show which is sort of got a bit of a cult following. Yeah. And um I was, you know, really nervous about going on the show, but the producer took me out to dinner and said, "It's going to be great. You know, it's going to be fine. You, you know, gave me lots of reassurance." So when I got there uh and I was sat in the green room, Michael Crawford was on before me and uh for those that don't know, he was a a legend, iconic um comedian. He I could hear him on stage, you know, he was comedian, so he was telling jokes and the audience were laughing and I'm thinking, my god, what's it going to be like when I go on, you know? So I went on and I sat on the stage. The presenter had a desk. I've sat I was like at the head mistress's office. I'm telling you. I sat there and all the audience were uh you know it was a live audience sort of tearshaped. He did an interrupt introduction and then he then said right we'll get Allan uh to speak first and I'm like gosh they never told me about this that Alan's going to be on the show. Alan from the council from the council stood up at the front of the stage and then starts you know beating his chest telling everyone why there shouldn't be an Ans summer store in Dublin and uh then of course it was my turn and I I just told the story pretty much how I told you about the sales at the parties first of all one woman at the very back at the highest level stood up and she's pointing down at Alan like this don't you dare tell us where we can and can't shop. And it was fabulous cuz once one person did it, others did it. And despite us being served a Rit on the first day of opening, um the Dublin store is now in our top three performing stores and it's also on the tourist bus route. Oh wow. Which, you know, because of that story, which I think, you know, for me is great. Served a writ. A writ. Yeah. So we were taken to court. We won the court case. We got damages uh because they tried to stop us from opening and someone sent you a bullet in the post after the show. Oh, sorry. Yes, the bullet in the post that arrived anonymously obviously a week before I was due to fly out to Dublin. And how did that feel? um very frightening but I just felt I've I've had to deal with a lot of challenges within the business a lot of preconceived ideas to me I felt like I was being bullied and it was actually before before bullying was even a thing it but that's how I felt and I felt so strongly about what I wanted to do that nothing was going to stop me and I Actually, I did get a somebody a security person to meet me at the airport and you know that was but that was about it. That's what I did. You became CEO of an summers in what year was that? Do you remember? I don't but I was in my 20ies still I think really becoming a CEO in your 20ies is not easy [clears throat] especially if you're going to be completely honest especially if you're a woman especially in that time in that era when there is so much discrimination um tell me about cuz I also became a CEO in my 20ies tell me about the discrimination that a woman CEO in that era experiences that I would not know about? Well, there's there's two as always there's two answers to this question if that's okay. The first one is about being there were very few business women. So about being a woman in business, you know that you'd meet somebody uh at a meeting and they would assume that your colleague if they were a man they would [clears throat] start talking to them. So there was that assumption and I think there is a possibility that still goes on now. Um and actually I as you can tell I'm quite I'm only 5' one. I looked younger than I was at 21. And well you're only 25 now. So that's unbelievable. So I was only two then. Um and my managing director was very tall. Although she was a woman she was very tall. So there is this bias that if you're if you're short and female that you can't possibly be running the business. But then I I still have that now. So a few years ago I was speaking I was doing the uh keynote speak at the retail live show and I was I remembered I was interviewing Baroness Neville Rolf on stage um about her role in in business and some of the challenges that we were experiencing that the industry was experiencing and I was just walking the boards basically getting myself comfortable. Some guy came over and he said I've still got I've still not got my slides. I'm I'm looking at him. He said, "I'm I'm on in half an hour and I've still not got my I said I'm I'm speaking. Oh." And then he just walks off as if that's Oh, [ __ ] hell. And And um another example, I've got to tell you this one. I jump on the train at the last minute with a first class ticket. Oh, I've been there. Have you? I know exactly. You know what I'm going to say. Yeah. I'm at London Bridge. All the city boys are sitting in there. The train is full. And I'd just I'd just come down for Sheffield and just managed to get my um connection. I was dressed casual and I said to this guy, "Could could you move over? Uh could you just move over, please, so I can sit there?" He said, "Have you got a first class ticket?" And I looked at him and I said, "You're kidding me, aren't you?" He said, "No. Have you got a first class ticket?" I said, "I'm not answering that." And so he reluctantly moved over and I sat down. But he then carried on and and I'm saying, you know, this is this is sexist. How many other how many of these city guys sitting in here have you asked? Then the guy next to me said to who's on on the other side of the aisle said, "Just show him your ticket. You know, just start arguing. Just show him your ticket." And the woman in front of me was doing this. [sighs and gasps] I'm like, [laughter] "Don't calm me down. Don't calm me down." And that's the problem we need. You know, that's one of when people say it's job done. It is not job done. It really isn't job done. Those are the rare instances where you get to see it. But most of it you don't get to see, right? Most of that um discrimination is invisible. because it will be small decisions compounding against you because of discrimination over decades and decades and decades. Those are the instances where you can go hm [clears throat] that was clear prejudice because that was just me. Um I read that there was a bullying culture and summers in the early I heard that oh for me okay yeah sorry I thought you meant during my not now [laughter] but but that you um you kind of transformed that because you didn't like that. Yes. Yeah. And again, that was before bullying was a thing. So, we have a parent company called Gold Group International, and that person worked in that part of the business. Um, and you know, and he wasn't the only person. There were others and and bullying was um entertainment. In those days, there wasn't the open the open um culture that we have in businesses today. People wouldn't speak up. You know, they they would assume they're not going to be listened to or um but I, you know, I knew it was going on and I thought this is this is not this is not how I want the business to be. So, that was that was actually very very early on. And you have a no sort of tolerance approach to that. Yeah. I mean, I just don't I get to hear about, you know, we're small enough that I get to hear about most things and uh that that's not something I hear about and if if we did, we'd be all over it. I ask I ask all my guests this question. You know, you've built this tremendous business. It's hugely successful and it's really, as you said, it's more than just a financial success because it's been a almost like a social success. It's been a societal success because it's kind of led a um perception shift. It's dismantled a stigma which I think as you've described from the atmosphere you describe at these early parties was like liberating for people to be able to be open and um speak freely about sexuality and sex which was taboo at one point. Um but a consequence of my point is the consequence of business success is um financial success and what role has that played in your in in your life generally as it relates to your fulfillment and everything in between. financial success. I mean obviously financial success is something you know that as a society I'm not saying as a an individual but as a society we recognize as you know one of the elements of success and you know certainly in my younger time that was you know the more sales the more bottom line all of these things were symbols of success that I recognized and I I started the female female empowerment almost from the day I started but didn't realize it. So or I didn't I realized but I didn't realize the relevance of it or the importance of it or how groundbreaking it was going to be. You know I wanted to create an environment that was for women. I could see why I wanted to do that and I wanted women to feel safe. I wanted them to be open. As time has evolved, that passion for doing that has evolved along with so many other things. You know, that to me is what gives me the pleasure more than having nice clothes or or whatever. You know, just the financial independence that I've given hundreds of thousands of women, you know, during lockdown, we had women earning £30,000. We were giving out checks of £30,000 a month. Obviously, not to everybody, but to our top performers. I mean it was like who'd have thought we could be we would be in a position to do that. I mean that's that was fantastic. Sexual empowerment for every woman became something that was really important to me in the last 10 years you know uh 5 years that's that's broadened even further to what we consider to be every woman. You know, our [clears throat] last campaign, for example, which I was at, our Halloween campaign, you know, we had trans, we had an amputee, we had slim girls, we had curve girls, we had models, we had customers, you know, involved in this campaign. And that is what every woman is. And that is something I really love. So yeah, money is money is nice because we it makes us feel secure. Um it it we're able to treat ourselves. We're able to do nice things. Um you know, I feel I've worked really really hard and you know I feel I'm you know it's nice it's nice to have nice things and do nice things and I feel very privileged. But for me, having that legacy, which is far more important to me, that for me, female empowerment is is what I stand for and I want to put my stake in the ground and really own it. I was thinking there as you talked a little bit about the pandemic. Um [clears throat] much of the reason why I started this podcast was to highlight um the the more untold parts of like CEOs and professional people and successful people's um journeys because a lot of it's glamorized these days and entrepreneurship is seen as quite a very aspirational thing to a younger generation who can create you know companies using their mobile phone now. But what was the um if when I say like the worst day in business like what's the day that comes to mind for you? The hardest day. The hardest day was when the Boris Johnson announced that all stores would have to close, retail would have to close. There was no mention at that stage of furow schemes of rates holidays. Um, you know, there was no mention of deals to be done with landlords or what the future held. I I honestly was in shock that day. Yeah, I can't imagine. I can't imagine that cuz I don't work in that industry. just that the prime minister announcing that you have to close your business and not offering any kind of hope. And I you know and I went on I mentioned to you earlier I went on the on the on the retail calls and most companies their their um their level of cash was low. I mean most companies based on what we were offered at that time was you know you didn't have more than 3 months cash so then they of course brought out the sibles loan but and I think it was 80% guarantee we needed that to be 100% guarantee because there were so many so many um companies were refused credit um because the banks were so scared. So that was, you know, you you you thrown a lifeline and then, you know, we we did this for about there was about 9 months of of, you know, constantly being thrown lifelines that then didn't materialize or weren't applicable to you. In those um difficult moments um we turn to our partners in life. you know, they, you know, many occasions bear the brunt of that chaos at home. How's your, you know, talk to me about your home life and how you've as a CEO of a business that's gone through things like that, how you've managed to maintain [clears throat] a healthy relationship um with your husband um throughout all of this because I think I need some advice. [laughter] [sighs] Well, you know, it's interesting as he was asking the question because and and [clears throat] I'm definitely not judging here. I'm just saying that my I mean I I have a wonderful marriage. I have a lovely husband. But when I was going through health issues, you know, let's say, you know, he he wasn't the best. He tried, but it's a very very difficult thing to go through and it spurns up a lot of emotions. And I think there were times that he he was brilliant and times that he didn't, you know, handle [clears throat] things as well. And I'm sure anybody listening would know they've either been in this space or have been in my position. Can I ask cuz I don't want to make that mistake in my life. What what what's um what was missing in terms of I think it's the emotional support. Okay. I think that's what men struggle with um perhaps in those situations because um I and I think he's so used to me being strong. That's what it is. And he said that to me at the time. He is so used to me being strong and resilient as you said earlier. And I was strong and resilient but there was a vulnerability about me because obviously I was having having treatment that was debilitating. um you know and I think he struggled with that. I think having you know at one point you know I I couldn't see I couldn't feel my feet um I was sleeping most of the time obviously struggled with nausea and I'd lost my hair so that is you can understand why anybody would find that difficult but in business when I have business challenges is he, you know, he's remarkably supportive. As many of you know, I'm in the process of making conscious switches in my life. And one of the sort of big switches that's happening in my life at the moment is my move to towards living a more sustainable life. And that's where a brand like My Energy comes in, who, as you'll know, if you've listened to a couple of episodes of this podcast or one of my amazing sponsors, My Energy are the UK's number one renewable energy brand, and they're on a mission to increase the usage of green energy. This is one of their renewable energy products. If you're watching this on YouTube, you'll be able to see this, but if not, um, beautiful little thing called the Zappy. And I've spoken about this device before, but it's probably my favorite product so far, so I'm showing it again. It's a smart EV electric vehicle charger, which simply allows you to charge your electric vehicle from a solar or wind power source. It's super easy to install, and it's super userfriendly, saving you a ton of time and also saving you a ton of money, which is um, a huge bonus. So, if you are looking for a quick fix for your electric vehicle or if you want to become more sustainable, then head over to my energy.com and check out the Zappy on their website to hear a lot more. You talked as well at the very start of this conversation about um the passing of one of your ch children. Um, another [clears throat] sort of inconceivable thing to uh experience. You said at the start you've experienced a lot of like misfortune in your life. I mean, that's right up there with things that everybody hopes will never happen to them. Are you are you comfortable to talk about about that? Um, yeah, I'm okay. So, you you have you had IVF? Yes. Tell me about that process. I I've learned, you know, I've it's it's it's interesting because if it weren't for this podcast and some of the guests that I've sat here with who have gone through the IVF process and that had that process fail for them, as a young man, I would not have a clue about any of that. And you know what? I also wouldn't have a clue about the struggles that um some women face um to become a parent. [clears throat] Um, so whatever you can tell me about that process and that experience, I'd be incredibly grateful for. Well, obviously it's not just women that struggle. It's men as well, which I think can be very difficult for some, you know, for men. I think they find that harder. Of course. Certainly when I went through the IVF, I mean, it's 12 years a 12 years ago now. So again, it wasn't talked about like it is now. And that stigma makes it even more difficult and you know makes everybody involved feel you know there's something wrong with you and it can be so many different things you know and it's I don't think it's just a given that people just fall pregnant and the journey I went on is I did three IVFs in this country everything was if you fall pregnant if you know if we can make an appointment here if we can do that. Everything was an if and felt a bit negative. And then I had to um one of the things I had to do was or we had to do as a couple. We had to see a counselor. I think I I don't know if that's still part of the process, but you have to see a counselor. And halfway through the counseling session, the counselor started having a go at me. What the hell? Yeah. She was saying, "You're very intense." I'm like, "Well, I'm just I'm just hanging. I'm listening to everything you're saying and I'm interested and she was it felt like she was threatened by me. She felt uncomfortable with me. It was just a very negative approach. And then our fourth so we we had a break for about 2 years and then decided to go again and this time we went to San Francisco and everything was when when you fall pregnant when this happens. Oh really? Yeah. We can make this appointment. Call me anytime. No, nothing's a problem. And I just think we are maybe things have changed and you know this was I was fortunate to use a private clinic but there was still this we're very cautious. We're so cautious in in Britain but that adds to the anxiety. Definitely. One might even go as far as saying that reduces the chance of success. Absolutely. We talked about having an optimism bias. I'm totally I'm totally convinced of it. totally convinced and the disappointment every time we failed was overwhelming. You know, there's this blame like who's who's at fault here? You know, it is a very difficult it's a very difficult journey to go on. Very difficult. And the San Francisco procedure was successful. Yes. And I I then found out I was pregnant with twins, which was a shock. Um, I didn't want to know what sex they were. And at my first scan, he just spent a long time on one on one of the the babies. I didn't really notice. It was my my husband that noticed something must be wrong. Um, and afterwards the radiographer said to us, "I'm sorry, but one of the one of the fetuses is uh has a he used words like an abnormal brain, um, a morbid outcome, and I think I can still pronounce the condition, but it the condition that Alfie had was Alo Halo bar Holland press and carefully which is basically he just has enough brain to live and um to hear that well in in fact I didn't think he was going to make the pregnancy. They said he he I was told he wouldn't make 19 weeks, but um of course he did. He he went through to birth and that was very difficult for me because I had grieved for him when he was in the womb. So it was a big shock to me when he was born and I found bonding with him difficult at first. I found um diffic I found it difficult going to the hospital. Um I I was in hospital for a week um before I was able to go home. Um I'd had a cesarian. It was a two-hour it was a two-hour journey and I obviously would take Scarlet with me. Um but that was a very difficult time, a very difficult time for me and he was in hospital for quite some time. And then eventually we had the confidence to move him out of a home, out of the hospital and into a fantastic home called the Children's Trust in Tadworth. And then I think that was when I was able to start to build a relationship with him. [clears throat] But nothing prepares you for that. Nothing prepares you for that. Yeah. I mean, yeah, it's just unthinkable. And you know, as hard as this is to hear, you know, he was born in pain. And to hear your son born crying in pain, not as a any other, you know, that was that was just the worst thing on earth. That the impact that has on a relationship as well, a marriage. Oh god, it's just so many there's so many feelings, right? You know, they say, you know, it it's ironic that the the going through the IVF probably, you know, caused arguments and drove us apart, but when we had our our son and and he was, you know, obviously in hospital and then in at the Children's Trust and with this devastating illness, um it pulled us together and my husband, you know, was absolutely amazing. And I mean, to have a strong person by your side in the worst situation you could ever have, but on the, you know, we did manage to Scarlet was able to spend lots of time with him. We were able to take lots of lovely video footage of him. He was looked after so well there and all of the sensory treatment they they give is amazing and you know now um we have all of of Alfie's memories and you know I've kept a pirates box for him and um you know he's very much part of Scarlet's life even though he's not here. Thank you for your honesty there. it um I think it's just tremendously uh valuable and eye opening and it's a window that into a um a set of life events that few um few are um misfortunate enough to experience but um I'm glad I'm just very uh glad that you find the confidence to give us that because yeah these are things that you know people are naive to unless they go through them and I think a lot of the things that you've talked about day. Um people are naive too unless they go through them. Um so sharing it okay like for me is never going to make me understand fully but I think it gives me a ton of empathy towards um the people that go through those situations. So thank you for that. Um, something else you you you mentioned at the start of this conversation was about a nanny. And I I wrote that down because it was a slightly obscure thing to hear, but I wanted to come back to it just before we we conclude, which was that you were poisoned by a nanny. I've been very unlucky, haven't I? Yeah. Yeah. Um, I mean, this was bizarre. This was bizarre. This is like a movie. I had this nanny. Uh it was when Alfie was uh obviously in the home. So I needed all the help I could get and um I trusted her implicitly with my daughter and I had a really good relationship with her. I liked her. She was a lovely girl um and you know very reliable etc. I also had a lady that used to sort of pop in with and do odd jobs and while I was going through that period without the fee, she would also prepare our meals. So all I had to do uh before HelloFresh and Gust, it's what I had to do to um you know, she'd just make it easier for me. And uh what I didn't know was that she and the nanny didn't get on. And the nanny instead of coming to me and saying, "Look, I've got a problem here. Can we talk about it?" She thought the best tactic would be to get the the cook the sack. So she thought, "I know. I'll start off by putting uh copious amounts of sugar in in in the food after she's prepared it. So, I came home from work and I'm sat there and uh um cooked dinner. Everything seems fine. And we had fish. And when we sat down to eat the fish, the sauce tasted like custard. [laughter] Um but you know the first time it happens you think maybe she acts I don't know maybe she's just used the wrong pot. Yeah. Then the second time few weeks later same thing happened again. This time it was salt and I thought there's something wrong here. Um, and I want I obviously needed to talk to the to the lady that was doing the food. So, that's what I'd arranged to do. But before I had chance to speak to her, um, the nanny was taking my daughter to Blue Water and I'd left my lunch at home and so I called her. And I said, "You wouldn't drop it in for me, would you?" She said, "Yeah, no problem. I'll do it on the way." So she came over, unbeknown to me, on the way, pulled over, poured um screen wash into my soup, sealed it all back up again, then went to the petrol station, sorted herself out petrol for the car. She's got my daughter in the back. Brings it to my office, gets in the lift, brings it up, gives it to me. I say, "Thanks, Allie." Taken it from her. Then she's gone off to Blue Water with Scarlet. So, I didn't know straight away cuz it wasn't until I'd come to I came to eat it at um lunchtime. Luckily, I took quite a large mouthful. And the reason I say that is because I don't think I would have tasted it otherwise. And I spat it out because immediately it tasted of chemical called screen wash can kill you. And um yeah, we I then went into meltdown because obviously she's got my daughter with her. Did you know straight away that she had done that? I Yes. I I it was just instinct. My instinct was she it was her, but I needed to talk to the cook first. But this all happened too quickly. I thought if I ring the police, is she of sound mind? Would you know, would that make things worse? So I just waited for her to to because she was due to come back anyway and dropped Scarlet off with me. And um yeah, when she did um I took Scarlet and um my HR um Gary at the time and uh someone else, my sister actually I think it was um confronted her and what she admitted it. You joking. Not at first. First of all, she denied it, but went bright red. And then they said, "Look, if you tell us the truth, we won't need to get the police involved." So, she just blurted it out. She said, "Okay, I did it. I don't I don't like the cook. I don't like the cook." And uh, of course, I then felt I could do nothing but call the police because this is a woman that is going to even when she leaves even when she leaves me, she's going to get another job doing this where she could do something like this to another family. And and so she was charged. It went to court. She appeared on Good Morning Britain first thing in the morning and was at court in the afternoon which didn't go down with the judge e well with the judge as you can imagine. Um you know trying to get public sympathy and and sorry public sympathy. Yeah I think you know these people don't always see their own wrongs do they? They they it's never their fault. Whose fault was it and have you Um, I think she just she was just trying to put herself across in a in a in a positive way. Um, you know, she wasn't trying to harm me, but nevertheless, she was in a trusted position and you can imagine the the sort of trauma I felt for those few hours. Um [clears throat] and actually afterwards because you know you then are questioning whether you can ever trust anybody again. Um I'm I just you know it's something else that makes you feel vulnerable. Um she you know she kept messaging me trying to get the the court case and of course once it goes through that process it can't anyway. She was uh found guilty. She was sentenced to um a year in prison and she served three months. [ __ ] hell. That is awful. Do you know what I mean? Like potentially killing somebody and um poisoning someone's food. You get three months in prison. [clears throat] And then when she came out of prison, I then um had to take out an injunction on her because I found out that she was trying to write a book about that time. And I mean, you know, how much more disgusting can it get? What a ride. [laughter] It's been very colorful. What are your like inclusive life lessons when you reflect on your own journey in business in life? What are some of the like, you know, the things you'd say to your daughter if you were trying to advise her on the potential roller coaster that life can be as it has been for you? I mean, I try I'm somebody who tries to have few regrets because I don't think there's any great benefit to that. But there are things I definitely would have done differently. Um, I think, you know, I do have courage, but you can never have enough of it. And in certain situations, I always find myself the first one to be daring, I suppose, is the word I'm looking for. Um, I think that's a good thing. I could think that's a good thing in life. I think being engaging is a good quality I'd want my daughter to have, which is why I've always wanted her to be as confident as possible. To always believe that you not only can you be anything you want to be, but you don't have to follow the norm. And actually, it's good to be different. My business pieces would be slightly different actually because I, you know, I think the things I wish I'd done more of are networking. Um, and I I told you about the story about going to San Diego and I guess that's where I was going with that because in America networking is something that people do all the time and in this country at the time I started out it was nowhere near what it is today. Um, and I think particularly for women women you know and you know my husband is a brilliant networker. I mean, you know, wherever he does it, he'll do it anywhere. And, you know, I know when he says, "Oh, I was playing golf again." Actually, you know, he's um he's just natural at it. It's it's part of who he is. But I think, you know, women, it's the thing where you think, I haven't got time for that. I've got to really focus on this job or I've got to finish this deadline or but I have realized as I've got older, you know, every time you walk in a room and meet a room full of strangers, there's an opportunity there, you know, that could possibly change your life. And actually, you were telling me something similar earlier when you were talking about The Apprentice. Oh, right. Yeah. Yeah. Exactly. Yeah. Yeah. So, you know, I've got a basically we were talking about the apprentice before we started recording and um uh Jacqueline, you were on the the apprentice. Yeah. Um and I was saying that I basically got through off the apprentice, the junior apprentice when I was 14 years old, as some of you might know. Um but in the queue, I met a family, the Alawalia family. Um it was actually the son of the Alawalia billionaire. I believe he's a billionaire now, was in the queue with me. got chatting to him Jay Alawalia and although I got kicked off the show and therefore didn't get the 25 grand that I would have got at 14 years old to start my business, he ended up investing multiples more than that in my business and that was just someone that I met in the queue and had great conversation with because we were auditioning together for seven hours. So um and I think [clears throat] that's a brilliant a brilliant example. Yeah, completely agree. Yeah. So um and the people piece that I said to you earlier, I wished I had recognized the importance of you know for me you know people are the success of your business and I wished I'd recognized that earlier. Amen to that. That's the that's the single number one thing that I wish I'd rec recognized earlier. I thought it was about me because I was naive and dumb and probably a bit I don't know arrogant. I thought my business success was about my ability but it was all about the people that I pulled together and the culture I bound them with. So had an idea last week which we wanted to try. Historically we get our guests just to sign the book. But um what I'd like you to do instead of that as well as signing the book is just to write a question and whoever sits in the seat next and it could be anybody, right? Could be someone at the very very top of business, the very top of politics, the very top of sports. Um could be anybody. I'm going to ask them to I'm going to ask them that question. We're not going to we're not going to read it out right now, but next week's episode I will pose them that question. So, whatever question you want to write in this book, feel free. Okay. It's going to be a secret until next week's episode. Okay. Thank you so much. Um, thank you. You know, you're just remarkable. It's quite staggering that you've both gone through so much adversity as you've described and misfortune as you've you've called it. And um yet you are the person you are today. And there's such a huge amount of optimism which shines through when you speak about these incidents. And even you know you're talking about some of some incidents that are just unthinkable for one person to go through in in their life. Just one of those incidents yet you always caveed it with a butt and that was always the silver lining. And I think to have that attitude where you can always see the silver lining or the the lesson or the value in adversity is a remarkable thing that um I think you know will will create as we described with the negativity bias that you saw in the IVF system in the UK can actually dictate the outcome in our lives. And the last two years has been you know the greatest need for an optimism bias I think we've all experienced. So thank you. You've inspired me tremendously. I read about your story before you came here today and I was just blown away. But I was blown away by your success as well as a businesswoman cuz coming into a company at 19 and becoming the CEO and leading it as you have and changing the business and then leading this incredible charge against u you know a male stigma. Um but more broadly a social stigma around sex sexualization and sex and and um and I guess equality. um is just a remarkable remarkable thing, you know, and this is the reason why I started this podcast was to get to meet people like you that would inspire me and I just happened to record it so other people could listen. So, thank you. Well, it's been a real joy. I I I have really enjoyed it. Um and I really look forward to hearing it and seeing it. [laughter] Thank you so much. Honestly, amazing. You are amazing. Pleasure. Thank you. [music] Heat. Heat. [music] Heat. Heat. [music] [music]