Ancient Greek Wisdom Every Man Needs To Hear - Donald Robertson

dude I love every time that we get to speak I I adore all of your last books and you've done a new one about Socrates why would anyone want to think like Socrates why would anyone care about this old dead white guy or whatever he I I love Socrates I I love Marcus aurelus but Socrates is like the next level you know I really am excited to to be able to talk and and write about him and stuff Socrates was I'll tell you why this is going to seem like answer right there's Eric Clapton right and guys like that and then there's Jimmy Hendrick right Eric Clapton's an amazing guitarist but Jimmy Hendrick to me anyway sounds like he's from another planet right Jimmy Hendrick took his guitar to bed with him he woke up in the morning strapped his guitar on and fried eggs wearing his guitar he went to the lav Tre wearing his guitar right psychologist call that time on task like he was constantly practicing and stuff like he was obsessed with it Socrates reminds me in that solitary regard of Jimmy Hendricks because the way he's described to us is he's a guy who abandoned everything else and just spent all day every day discussing what he considered to be the most important questions in life with anybody the the greatest intellectuals that he could find in the uh in the Known World prostitutes uh politicians uh slaves you name it everybody from all walks of life so he had he was like the Jimmy Hendrick of philosophizing like he never took his guitar off he was constantly doing I can't imagine someone in modern society spending that amount of time really analyzing the contradictions in someone else's thinking so Socrates to me is a kind of a unique individual and it it comes through we don't know there's this thing called the socratic problem that we don't know but we should acknowledge at the beginning that we don't know for sure how closer representation Plato's dialogues or the other sources that we have are of the real Socrates but I think his character comes through to some extent those dialogs are probably semi- fictional like they're embellished a bit but the real guy kind of shines through to some extent and he must have been an extraordinary individual he's somebody who has a tremendous capacity for thinking outside the box for spotting logical contradictions and he said some of the most radical things in the history of Western philosophy not only that I see him as the Godfather of modern self-help and self-improvement psychology or the great great granddaddy of cognitive behavioral therapy so as a a psychotherapist a cognitive behavioral therapist you know I I Look to Socrates as somebody who stands at the very origin of our tradition but also I think in some ways we've kind of gone asay in ways that he warned us about so by going back and looking at what he originally said I think we can figure out maybe and see beyond some of the mistakes that we might have made along the way you mentioned there uh maybe historical Gap uh with regards to what we know about him how we would have learned about him how do we know anything about him sort of what are the scraps of material that you've been using to write this book well the most famous thing is that we have Plato's dialogues there are like 36 or 37 of Plato's dialogues most of which feature Socrates prominently and it's generally assumed by Scholars that Plato changed his approach throughout his career early in his career he wrote a more literal description of Socrates probably embellished a bit as time went on he starts to use Socrates more and more as a mouthpiece probably for his own views like Plato's famous metaphysical Theory the theory of forms probably wasn't something that Socrates ever actually said socrates's way of doing philosophy seems to be more kind of homely down to earth more focused on applied Ethics in daily life basically so we have those and and you know Plato's dialogues are just incredible you know Plato was also a genius and so we have the writings of a genius about another genius basically you know some of these texts are the most profound and moving pieces of literature in in the western Cannon and you know I seldom recommend books to people funnily enough unless I know them very well but my one exception to that is that I think everybody should read Plato's apology because I think it's a Masterpiece and it only takes a couple of hours to read as an a say so we've got all that stuff and then we have Zenon another student of Socrates and his dialogues are less well known but we have a bunch of like 30 or 40 dialogues shorter ones more Down to Earth from xenophon as well um then we have this really weird thing which is a play by Aristophanes which is a satire ridiculing Socrates that was written and performance during his lifetime and we learn almost nothing from that or it's hard to tell anything from it because it's a caricature but it tells us that he must have been pretty famous during his lifetime for people to have you know ridiculed him caricatured him like that and then we have What's called the anecdotal tradition which is like basically a bunch of little anecdotes and quips about Socrates said this Socrates did that that we tend to find in later authors so they have more dubious reliability but altto together all this stuff tells us something about what we could frame as the literary character of Socrates so Marcus Aurelius and other subsequent thinkers that followed the subsequent to Socrates would have known of herly through these writings so we could say what's influencing them is a character of Socrates that was passed down by other writers and there's a big question mark about how closely does that correlate to the real guy we'll never know why was he so influential well the the ancient answer to that question is that he was the first he wasn't the first philosopher he wasn't even the first philosopher at Athens but they used to say that he was the first philosopher that brought philosophy really down to earth and applied it to Everyday matters kind of almost making it into a psych therapy basically he would talk to people about the nature of love he would talk to Generals in the military about the nature of Courage you know he would talk to priests about the nature of piety he talked to his friends about the anger the most kind of hely dialogue that we have is in xenophon and in it Socrates um has a conversation with his teenage son lample because lles is really upset um about his mom nagging him and Socrates helps his son to kind of reframe this overcome his anger towards his mother right so that's probably the most kind of downto Earth example of a Socratic dialogue that we have so that's kind of what he was particularly known for doing but also so he took the method of dialectic or philosophical question and answer H turned it into his own trademark method called the Socratic method and really began to ra much more radically and thoroughly question the assumptions about morality mainly that people around him were making and that made him a controversial figure you know he was like dynamite you know some people were almost addicted to being questioned by Socrates they found it incredibly liberating experience other people found it embarrassing uh humiliating and they hated him and they went after him so it wouldn't be overly simplifying things to say that Socrates asked too many questions rocked the boat upset some powerful people and we all know how that ended for him he was made to drink Hemlock what was the existing philosophical world that he entered into you mentioned there that he he wasn't the first philosopher probably by broader categories but he's the first one to bring it down to earth what was what was the uh state philosophically of the existing World well the two main philosophical traditions that preceded him and there were others so it's a little bit more complex but the ones that are most relevant to him is the first philosopher at Athens was a guy called anex agaras who came from the Greek colonies um which would be on in Ionia which would be on the on the coast of turkey basically so when we talk about Greek philosophers but we're often a bit confused about where they came from they didn't all come from Athens many of them came from from Greek colonies that were much further a field so anex agis was what we call a natural philosopher all these it's you know the famous thing about Socrates is we refer to everyone that came before him as presocratic that's how influential he was you know like pre he's the before Christ he's the before Christ of philosophy yeah so the natural philosophers are kind of in many ways precursors of of of modern science they try to explain things broadly speaking using physical descriptions you know they were interested in very interested in astronomy very interested in physiology and that was a great thing for Athenian culture and Greek culture it was also very controversial because they challenged traditional superstitions so people would think that thunder and lightning was caused by zeist and the natural philosopher said we reckon it's caused by clouds rubbing together or something like that you know earthquakes are just a natural phenomenon and things and that had a a surprisingly big impact on society just as an aside there's a famous anecdote about how Pericles the the most influential most powerful Athenian Statesman at this time um was about to set sail with his Fleet um on a military campaign and there was an eclipse and his crew were cing in fear and they refused to do very often the Greeks would aband particularly the Spartans known for this by the way they would abandon battles because they were concerned about uh bad Omens and so on empirically supposedly explained the natural philosophy that he'd been taught by anex agis and he said look this is just something passing in front of the Sun as if I put my cloak in front of your eyes but it's further away and much bigger and he convinced by giving this down toe naturalistic explanation he managed to convince his troops to set sail like and so it changed the outcome of battles basically that's how kind of dramatic it was but at the same time it also upset a lot of people and so anex agas was also placed on trial for impiety you know long before Socrates so there was anex agis and Socrates thought this philosophy though doesn't teach wisdom he said anex agaras um didn't really understand anything about the nature of justice and Injustice so when he was placed on trial supposedly he was a Broken Man as a result and we can contrast how anex dealt badly with being exiled uh and then subsequently sentenced to death for impiety and how Socrates famously exhibited courage uh in court and stood by his principles because he prepared himself to understand Justice and Injustice from a much more profound philosophical perspective um so there anx agress and many other natural philosophers that Socrates had studied and then a bit later we get these guys called the sophists and their name implies that they claim to be wise they claim to be to have expertise and the sophists taught young men oratory and rhetoric um they were kind of like self-improvement gurus in a sense but they also taught people how to become successful politicians and confident public speakers and they were the first one was protagoras who Socrates knew personally um and questioned and this seems to have been a key moment in his career but Socrates basically thought the sophists were far too concerned with just winning arguments and they'd sacrificed the truth so they would teach you how to win a debate in the assembly right but socrates's concern to put it very simply was he'd say how much time have you guys spent trying to figure out what's in the best interest of society or what's just and what's unjust like zero time but you spend all of your time trying to figure out how you can convince other people what's just are in their interests before the assembly now this is a very simple argument but weirdly eily it kind of applies today like you know so people get into politics because they want to influence Society you know but how many politicians seem to have invested that much time and effort in trying to figure out what's genuinely in the interests of individuals or Society Socrates says it would be like going to see a doctor that' never spent any time studying medicine I don't bother with that like you know I'm just really good at writing prescriptions but I don't know like you know what's actually good for your health you know so politicians all they're concerned about is winning debates like you know influencing legislation but s he said could you explain what Justice is or explain to me what's in interest of society and when he asked him these questions they like I don't know I haven't really thought about it so the this was his concern with the sophists it was all about appearances and they sacrificed truth but he had a kind of LoveHate relationship with them he he liked to kind of hang around them you know he thought they said some interesting things but they didn't really think deeply enough about what they were saying I guess another part of it that's I think is very relevant today is that Socrates found that the sophists would give speeches and they would teach people maxims a bit like watching a YouTube video or or getting kind of rules for life from from Modern self-improvement experts right and Socrates thought that was basically too passive like he thought there are no rules that are going to apply across every situation in life basically what's much more in your interests is learning how to think for yourself and to be able to question things and spot exceptions to general rules and principles so that's a harder it's a more kind of a less tangible concept for people but so that's where the Socratic method comes in Socrates thought we need to learn how to think for ourselves question things more deeply not just kind of memorize these phrases that we're getting from this office do you think it's kind of ironic that one of Socrates fundamental principles is that you must think for yourself and your book is called how to think like Socrates how to think like Socrates which is how to think for yourself nice and nice and circular there I love it it's a it's a bit of a so it's a bit circular but if you learn to think like Socrates you'll learn to think for yourself so do we know how Socrates got into philosophy if we got any idea about his upbringing or history or introduction if he's this sort of you know gamechanging world renowned everything before him was not and after him was just a replicant of of what he said before like what was his what was his come up story we kind of have several bits of evidence there so like sometimes the evidence is a little bit contradictory or it's a little bit vague so you know in telling his story we have to make some assumptions we have to iron out some contradictions and stuff because the ancient text a little a little bit messy in that regard so the most famous explanation he gives is in Plato's apology where he says his friend chiror went to delie which is a few days walk outside Athens in the mountains this incredible place that's like something a of the Rings and there's a great famous temple to the god Apollo there and you could ask questions of the Pia the Priestess of Apollo she sat on a bronze tripod supposedly inhaling these fumes and she'd go into a trance and the god Apollo possessed her and spoke through her right and Chiron who was another philosopher a weird dude who people compared to a bat to respect her he was I imagine him almost like a kind of goth or something like he he was a bit of a F but he was socrates's best friend and he went to the he was known for doing kind of eccentric things so he went to the the delic Oracle and said uh ASA is any man wiser than Socrates and it replied no man is wiser than Socrates Apollo the god Apollo replied no man is wiser than Socrates and so the weird story in the apology is that Socrates found this ult to accept and see he went around grilling the wisest people that he could find to try and find evidence that there was indeed somebody that was wiser than him because he didn't believe that no one was wiser than him but he found that when he asked great philosophers and Statesmen often they contradicted themselves so he thought they can't be wise they believe that they are and the sophists literally called themselves wise men but often on when they were questioned they they the things they were saying were full of contradictions and fell apart and so Socrates thought well look I come to the conclusion that paradoxically I don't know much either but I'm neither do these guys and I am wiser than them by a hair's bread because at least I know that I'm not wise whereas they falsely believe that they are wise right and so the central thrust of his method becomes puncturing this kind of intellectual arrogance or SE sometimes it's called double ignorance so Socrates thought ignorance isn't a problem because I might be ignorant about medicine but if I know I'm ignorant about medicine I might be motivated to go and consult an expert right I might not know how to fix the engine in my car but if I go and see a mechanic I can find somebody that maybe knows better than me but if I believe that I'm an expert on engines or I believe I'm an expert on medicines and I'm not really then I'm in trouble because I'll be guided by my ignorance to make lots of mistakes so Socrates thought this is one of our biggest problems in life a bit like the dun and Krueger phenomenon like that we believe that we know things that we do not in fact know so he found that his method was almost like a therapy for curing people of this intellectual conceit so that's a story that Plato tells but he must he also says that he he did study philosophy prior to that maybe for decades he'd been studying natural philosophy and learning about from other philosophers but his trademark method developed at some point in his life as a result of this weird incident where the Oracle proclaims that no man is wiser than him I how much do you think he would have spent his time playing this game of poking holes in other people's hypocrisy ignorance uh like shallow rhetoric that isn't sort of foundation philosophically if he hadn't stepped into a world where the sophists were kind of the number one band uh available the time that's really hard to say I mean I always feel like we almost need this office to have Socrates you know he's very much reacting to them I mean maybe he would have developed his method in response to the other the natural philosophers but it really seems to be the sophists that Inspire him in a way because he's so concerned and one reason for that is that the sophists have a lot of influence over Athenian politics and Socrates was friends with some powerful political figures and so although he wasn't really directly involved in politics himself I think he was very concerned about Athens and what's missing what from the platonic dialogues and from Zenon although they refer to historical events and they refer to important figures I think people still when they read Plato get the feeling that Socrates is just walking around in Pleasant Groves and sandals kind of pontificating about things and they don't visualize him as uh a heavy infantryman who fought in at least three major battles of the pipian war they don't imagine him as someone who survives a terrible plague they don't see him at the heart of Athenian politics surrounded by these key figures like these senior Statesman and living through one of the most epic wars in European history the pipian War lasted 27 years you know and under a dictatorship the 30 tyrants that took over Athens so his life was incredibly you know dramatic basically and his philosophy is shaped by I think all of these things his experienc as a soldier living under different political regimes including a kind of dictatorship that you know that was really brutal of political purges where people were just rounded up and executed um all of these things but definitely the sophists Lum large in socrates's influences and his partly because he's concerned about them having so much sway over the Athenian assembly and the political decisions that being made how would you describe the main principles of his philosophical worldview well as we've said I mean the Socratic method the the core of what he's doing in a sense is more about the process so some people in the ancient world would have seen wisdom or the goal of life as being the acquisition of knowledge like you know having a bunch of opinions that are true basically and Socrates thought that's not real wisdom though that's just kind of learning stuff passively real wisdom is more like a cognitive skill right so the goal of philosophy I think for Socrates is more of a process that we engage in every day of Our Lives learning to think and question things more profoundly you know he said the unexamined life is not worth living you know he thought the goal of life was to examine your life continually every day it was like an ongoing process of personal development in a sense never really ended so the core of his philosophy I think is the actual method of his philosophy and he does have doctrines in a sense often he doesn't State them but he seems to be kind of arriving at them um so for example a famous one is in Plato's Republic in the first book uh Socrates asks for a definition of justice and his friends say well Justice is helping your friends and harming your enemies right this was a cliche in Athenian culture it comes from the military world where you'd be helping your Military Allies and punishing or attacking your enemies in Warfare but it was also applied to civilian life as well and Socrates questions us from a number of different angles but as a far as I recall in the Republic he doesn't specifically State what the alternative conclusion would be he just kind of implies it whereas later philosophers Plutarch for example explicitly says Socrates believed that Justice consists in helping your friends but also helping your enemies by turning them into your friends so the goal is basically to convert enemies into friends not just to kind of punish or harm your enemies Socrates was concerned that if we try to harm our friends from a particular point of view first of all we're missing out if we try to harm our enemies first of all we're missing out on the opportunity to convert them into allies or friends and secondly we might kind of end up making them worse enemies like by punishing them or harming them in a particular way and actually that's kind of what happened to Athens you know the there were certain more kind of aggressive hawkish political leaders that took control of the Athenian assembly and they committed genocide um and this really led to Athens downfall because Athens potential allies no longer trusted them and turned against them like so their regime collapsed they had a catastrophic military defeat in Sicily that can be seen as the consequence of this kind of more shortsighted more more aggressive attitude towards other states so you know Socrates does have these doctrines and there are many many other ones that people derive from what he's saying but we should be a little bit careful about making them into roles that are too rigid one of his nicest ones you know that's a little bit different for instance is Socrates according to xenophon Socrates repeatedly said um that we should eat to live rather than live to eat you know he thought people in general he thought people were too much duped by appearances so they were too much swayed by short-term pleasure and pain and he thought we should think more carefully about whether something is actually good for our health or not rather than just whether it tastes nice or you know doesn't taste nice we should be thinking about the reality of stuff beyond the appearances another one of his little sayings that's quite well known is that we should be as we wish to appear like he thought again we're we're misled into focusing too much appearances we want to appear confident Socrates said it would be better to actually become confident if you want to appear confident if you focus too much on Faking It Like or the appearances that that can kind of lead to a more superficial approach it could be misleading it you could get sucked into deception of other people it would be better for you to actually become confident um people came to him saying Socrates how can I make myself seem like a good friend and socres said it would be better to become a good friend in reality I'm feeling a lot of this sort of tension between practical and Abstract especially stepping into a world where it's this sort of rhetorical device people getting Toast Masters or improv or comedy speech coaching in this way but they're not actually assessing the underlying motivations of why they're doing this particular thing and uh you know he's got that uh we are what we repeatedly do Excellence then is not an act but a habit so even in the um highlighting of the importance of action he's even taking it one step further and talking about the repetition of action yeah I mean Socrates felt like we were constant we were constantly confusing appearance in reality that's I guess a recurring theme of his philosophy and he felt the sophists were all about appearances in completely neglected reality right so you know he's always challenging us to look Beyond appearances but using reason hey in a sense Socrates thinks we're kind of lazy you know and he's always kind of encouraging us to question appearances and use reason to think a little bit more deeply about things I'll give you a really cool example of that that relates to something I mentioned earlier um I mentioned lample getting annoyed with his mother Socrates at the beginning of the conversation asks his son whether his mother um really cares for him and whether she's made many sacrifices to help him and lamp's actually admits quite easily say yeah my mom's like dedicated her life to helping me when I'm sick my mother nurses me like she spent all of her time raising me she's done everything for me but SOC she just really annoys me when she's nagging me like I don't know how I could possibly put up with it and Socrates uses this amazing analogy um that just it's one of my favorite things that he says he says in the theater when you're going to see a tragedy being performed for example do the actors not really say things that are much more vicious and insulting and hostile than anything your mother ever says and lle says well yeah of course they do but you don't understand Socrates they're just acting it's not real right that's the difference and Socrates says but you just told me a few moments ago that you believe that your mother doesn't really mean you harm but fundamentally she cares for you right so sometimes she might seem really annoying but in general she actually cares for you a lot and what he's encouraging lles to do is to kind of look beyond the impression that he has of his mother in those moments and think more about her personality as a whole in a more rounded and complete Way by using reason to think about who who is your mother really you know what is what is the Rel nature of your relationship with her really it's more than just a nagging like that might be part of it it might be something you don't like but by focusing only on that and putting it under magnifying glass you exaggerate your anger um but if you think about her personality as a whole then it becomes just one small part like and it becomes less upsetting maybe you become more able to tolerate it you mentioned it a couple of times assume that somebody hasn't heard about the Socratic method before what is it how's it work so it's in some ways It's tricky to Define and in some ways it's easy like there's a lot of nuance to it and Socrates doesn't sit down at any point and say hey let me just explain my methods to you briefly we instead what we see is example after example of him using his method in various different ways so we have to kind of infer how he's doing it um but basically what he tends to do is to ask people to define a concept and it's usually a virtue so he'll say Define piety Define courage Define Justice and typically it's something that's very relevant to them so he's not just like we would in academic philosophy now analyzing Concepts you know for the sake of it he talks to military commanders about the nature of Courage for example because it's something that they're already taking for granted in a sense in the conversations that they're having so you could also say he's digging deeper beneath the conversation and questioning the underlying premise or assumption so you guys are talking a lot about courage but what is courage how do you actually Define it the whole conversation is based on that and then he you normally think of exceptions to the rule that they've given it's the most famous examp example is when he's talking uh to lacky and nikus to Athenian generals they Define courage as standing your ground and remaining in formation in the face of the enemy and that's because the Athenians depended to a large extent on their hop lights their heavy infantry which Socrates was one and they had to fight in the fanks formation right and so your their Shield each soldier's Shield would protect him but also the guy standing to his left and if you broke formation Not only would you place yourself at risk but you place the soldiers that are fighting alongside you in Greater danger as well by doing that so they had to really drum it into these guys that they had to remain very rigidly in formation for this PHX strategy to work and Socrates says okay that's a good definition of courage but it's too narrow right because what about during a tactical Retreat like you break from the fank formation but you can still exhibit courage you're no longer standing your ground in the same way though what if you figh in the Cavalry and then you have to charge into the middle of the enemy rather than standing your ground but the Cavalry exhibit courage you just have to Define it differently though he says what about the Spartans they fight in fank formation but they also sometimes charge into the enemy like Cavalry do we but they're renowned for their courage so you wouldn't say that they lack courage you'd have to tweak your definition a little bit so he starts this conversation going usually by creative thinking and being able to come thinking outside the box and coming up with so he you know again like he's not following a formula here as much as using a skill like he's thinking right and he's coming up his brainstorming examples what about this what about this what about this right it's like he's saying yeah but okay courage could be standing your ground but what about this what about this scenario what about in civilian life you'd have to Define it differently and so he constantly challenges the Lo to the person he's speaking about to revise their definition and think about it at a deeper and deeper level and he doesn't always arrive at a clear conclusion often he doesn't his dialogues often end in aaria in Greek which is the term that we use to to mean a sort of confusion or bewilderment right so people walk away and some people hated that but other people would walk away from it thinking I kind of feel like I know less now than I did at the beginning of the conversation but in a good way because maybe I was too rigid in my thinking and I was assuming that I knew things that I didn't really understand at least now I realized that there's more to Justice than helping your friends and harming your enemies or there's more to courage than just standing your ground and remaining the falling formation and maybe I've kind of spiraled closer and closer to the center of the meaning of these Concepts so in the process of doing that he'd often point out contradictions in people's thinking um he said what you're saying now is seems to clash with something you said a few minutes ago so he was very sharp at noticing this and you know I think one of the ways that that can help us today actually is there's a particular type of contradiction that Socrates would sometimes point out a moral contradiction I'll give you another example where he where he's talking to a teenage boy an adolescent boy there's a guy called kobis that comes to him who's the son of one of his best friends kryo and kopa says Socrates could you introduce me to some people that would be really good friends to have in Athenian Society he's asking him for help networking weirdly right and suy says sure like how would you define a good friend and C says well they'd come and visit you when you're sick maybe they'd lend you money if you're broke maybe if you're being a bit out of order they take you to one side and gently kind of explain to you that you should change your behavior and stuff like that so quite easily he's able to kind of Define what a good friend is but then Socrates says well how many of these qualities do you exhibit yourself and cus is like well I not many like you know zero I don't know like so Socrates says haven't again haven't you got this back to front you're kind of asking me to present you to these people as if you would be a good match as if you would be a good friend to them but they're bound to figure out if you don't have any of these qualities and then they won't trust me as a Matchmaker of friends you know and they're going to lose faith in you as a friend as well you should have come to me and asked me how you could become a good friend yourself right how you could improve yourself so you're exhibiting a double standard you're applying one standard to other people in terms of friendship but a different standard or no standard to yourself um this is a kind of moral hypocrisy if you like so often Socrates is drawing people's attention to the fact that they're exhibiting moral double standards and we do similar things in modern cognitive therapy as well sometimes people think philosophical ethics can be quite subtle and quite nuanced and it often is but you know in many cases we can make moral progress I think just by not being Hypocrites you know the one thing that the majority of people agree on is that you shouldn't contradict yourself morally you know and if you're saying one thing and doing another like if you're applying a double standard most people agree there's something wrong there like and it's reason that helps us to spot those contradictions and attempt to resolve them so there's a simple way I think that many people can make in progress in terms of morality and self-improvement just by questioning their own standards in the way that Socrates teaches these young men to it seems like that's the consistent Trend or theme or perhaps outcome of this Socratic method which is discontinuity inconsistency hypocrisy um poorly clarified underpinnings and Foundations and definitions of what's going on uh but yeah I can also Imagine That simply by asking questions and continuing to refine you may avoid untruths and perhaps by avoiding untruths move yourself closer to truth but it's very much a a sort of do it yourself paint by numbers Socrates isn't coming in and saying well this would be a better approach he's saying I think there may be a problem with this so can quite imagine why people could find him annoying because he's basically just permanently poking holes in everything yeah yeah yeah but I think there are number let let me kind of explain what he's doing I think from a different perspective from a more psychological perspective right and in doing that I'll maybe make its relevance a bit more apparent to Modern self-improvement so there's a body of research in modern Psychotherapy and psychology and in the field of coping and stress that there we can analyze different coping iies that people use to deal with stress right and these are the strategies that you find in self-help books and self-improvement books right so maybe breathing exercises relaxation technique cognitive therapy positive affirmations positive visualization even things like avoidance just running away from the situation you know or accessing other result social support getting someone else to help you in a situation or things like that there's like lots of different ways that you could potentially cope with anxiety depression stressful situations right but no one of those coping strategies works every time and the people that exhibit the most emotional resilience and are most able to recover from anxiety and depression are generally found to be the ones that have something we call coping flexibility so they're able to choose intelligently between whether to confront a situation assertively or whether to back away from it and resign themselves to it with emotional acceptance a little bit like saying knowing when to pick your battles and things like that you know uh or knowing when it's better to distract yourself from pain or discomfort and when it would be better to to address the cause or when it would be better to confront it and adapt to the experience and learn to accept it you know and by questioning I mean what we do in modern cognitive therapy like often we'll find almost with every client you'll find that they have coping strategies they've just made up themselves or coping strategies they've got from the internet or from self-help books right and many in many cases they'll be using these maladaptively in a way that that's contributing to the problem and making it worse usually because they're doing them too rigidly or they're using them as a kind of subtle form of avoidance that's actually contributing to to the problem and so one of the first things we might do is what's sometimes called a functional analysis so we'll get people to very carefully way up the pros and cons of the strategies they're using and this kind of thinking things through so cognitive therapy technique is similar in some ways I think to using the Socratic method to question your definition of justice for instance or Socrates would also um I'll give you an example of a specific technique that kind of blew my mind when I read it in xenophon and Scholars like classicists never mention this because like you know as a psychotherapist looking at the socratic dialogues I notice him doing psychological stuff that a philosopher or classicist might not even you know like register so there's a bit in zenor where Socrates speaks to another young guy um in a shop in the agura and this dude is a a self-help junkie as we call it today he literally has a collection he's got the finest collection in Athens of self-improvement books he says he collects the maximums of wise men and he's trying to improve his character so that one day he can become a a great Statesman and he wants to understand the nature of morality or Justice and Socrates questions about the definition of justice and quickly shows that he he doesn't really understand it it's contradicting himself and this guy thinks well I've been reading all these books and trying to memorize what they say but when someone tries to get me to explain the meaning of these Concepts I just kind of fall apart because he's never really thought things through very deeply he's just parting stuff he's learning passively Socrates draws a diagram which I immediately recognized because we do it all the time in cognitive therapy he draws two columns right probably in a wax tablet or something right and at the heading at the top of one column he writes Injustice and at the top of the other column he writes Justice and he says I want you to kind of brainstorm definitions of what's Justice there you want to be a just individual right and brainstorm examples of Injustice so for Injustice he comes up with things like lying um or uh stealing um stuff like that right obvious examples of Injustice and then Socrates does exactly the same thing that we mentioned earlier he brainstorms exceptions he said okay lying what if you're an elected General and you're lying to the enemy in order to deceive them in a military campaign is that unjust or would you consider that to be just under the circumstances and so this young guy euth ademus is his name he says well that's different that's an exception right soes says what if you're a parent and you're trying to give your kid medicine but they won't take it unless you hide it in their food is that Injustice or would that seem like it's just he says well that's different as well and then Socrates uses another example that's really well known in for LA he says what if your friend was suicidal and they come to you and say where did you hide my dagger like would you lie to them and pretend that you don't know or would you say oh I guess I have this over there you know take it um and he say well that's different as well these are kind of unusual circumstances so SES says well maybe then there's more Nuance to this idea that Justice consists in always telling the truth and never lying like you seem to think that there's more to it than that there's other perspectives right and and this technique of drawing two columns we can literally do it on coping strategies to get people to think when would you practice mindfulness and what might be the pros and cons of doing that when might you try to fake it to make it and when might that be a bad idea right when might it be a good idea to always speak your mind to other people and be assertive and when might it be a better idea just to keep your mouth shut why in some situations and know when to fight your battles and so on and it's cognitive flexibility and coping flexibility the ability to view situations from different perspectives and the ability to choose intelligently between different types of coping strategies that really constitute in the same way that I said before that wisdom is more like a skill rather than just a bunch of ideas or opinions that you could hold I think that to some extent that's missing from a lot of self modern self-improvement literature and the risk is then that people get techniques that work in some situations but then they carry on using them rigidly in situations where they're no longer working they're backfiring I'll give you an example right my any Tech any self-help technique is going to backfire in some situations mindfulness is some techniques are more robust than others mindfulness is a really useful strategy it works really well right but for instance clients who have health anxiety and are constantly scanning their body for symptoms like oh I've just noticed I think I noticed a weird sensation of my chest right practicing mindfulness in some cases could actually just exacerbate or heighten their their focus threat monitoring for symptoms basically and paying too much attention to every slight twinge in their body right social anxiety like we know that one of the main correlates of social anxiety is height and self- focused attention so in fact many self-help techniques that people try to use in social situations actually increase their self- focused attention right so people with social anxiety will typically do things like trying to stand up like tall and straight in their back and look people in the eye right because they feel like that makes sense and it should make them more confident but what they don't realize is often in heightens their self-focused attention and naturally that contributes to social anxiety and it also increases their cognitive load so they're more likely to kind of feel awkward because they're trying to walk in true gum at the same time right but getting people to think about the pros and cons of these different strategies when might it be a good idea when it might it potentially backfire is there a good way of doing mindfulness and maybe there's a bad way of doing mindfulness in some situations that's the wisdom that allows people the ancient philosophers used to also say if you could give somebody a the problem of teaching moral precepts or like coping strategies you know would be that if you give a piece of advice a maxim to someone who's wise they'll use it wisely but if you give it to someone who's foolish they're probably going to use it foolish ly right if you give coping strategies to somebody who's severe anxiety they're they're more likely just just to turn it into a form of avoidance if you're not careful the the people who have the most severe problems are the ones that are most likely to misuse the type of strategies that we get in self-help books basically so I what's often missing I think is this meta skill if you like or being able to choose between strategies and figure out their pros and cons which is actually one of the first things normally do in cognitive therapy yeah very prophetic by Socrates to be able to see that out front what was the or organon organon that's one of parle's books isn't it yes yeah remember so yeah so I saw I saw that and this sort of interesting pivot toward what you see with these two different people that one is focused very much on what seems to be practical but then there's this begin of a trajectory toward philosophy being involved in politics philosophy being involved in sort of statesmanship uh with logic cicis deduction ethics stuff like that um why did Socrates not get involved in politics during his time or did he how much did he yes and no like generally speaking he didn't get directly involved in politics there was one incident where he was elected to a kind of a committee overseeing a trial um and Socrates took a principled stand supposedly in a situation where the mob were kind of Bing for the blood of a bunch of Athenian generals that were on trial um and he almost was executed as a result of doing that but after that I think uh he said that look if I was to get involved in politics I'd just end up being killed you know because uh you know the the stand that I would take would just you know in Athens at that time like he I one of our sources suggest he his thinking was he just wouldn't last very long and it would be more constructive of him to kind of critique politics from the sidelines as it were rather than trying to get directly involved did you not say do you not say something about Roger Stone was there not some similarities between him and Roger Stone I think there's some similarities and differences between him and Roger Stone what it's funny know rogerstone is one of these people that have published books on rules for it's called Stone's rules like his book and some of them are the opposite of what Socrates would say like Roger Stone I think it's fair to say is a man who would probably characterize himself as being quite fixated on the idea of Revenge that comes through pretty clearly from his book um he at no point in in his book does again does he ever really discuss what he thinks is in the interest of society like he spends a lot more time discussing how much he hates his political opponents um and how he uses Politics as a means to get back at them interestingly um I guess he has what you would call A a small C like a a very cynical attitude towards politics it's very different from the way that someone like soes would have seen it um and Socrates I think would be a Critic of this idea uh that revenge is a a rational motive for us to have um so there are something there there you know I try to have an even-handed approach to understand again like weighing up with pros and cons I looked at drone's book and I thought other bits of this that kind of make sense in relation to ancient philosophy and other bits of it that seem like they might be the opposite he says one of two things about resilience I think his phrase is turning chicken into chicken soup or something like that is the way he puts it very artsy yeah he has this idea um that we should adapt to adversity and develop emotional resilience which kind of sounds a little bit like the stoics but what's missing from I guess he has some ideas about emotional resilience but he doesn't have he doesn't seem to see any connection between that and social virtue for example like or uh justice like he sees politics I think in through a much more makavelian lines as far as I I can tell well how would you summarize uh what Socrates believed about what a good life consisted of or how to achieve a good life did he talk about that yeah I mean again the first thing he would do is apply like for example when he's talking to that guy ethod Demus he asks him that very question but he encourages him to think it through for himself right so ethod Demus is this young dude that's been reading loads of self-improvement books and he says okay like so what is a good life H actually youa says where is the first place that I should begin applying philosophy incidentally and so says here like the first thing you should do is start by asking yourself what the goal of life is and what constitutes flourishing or you di like so basically what's good for us and what's bad for us in life and youa says well okay so stuff like you know Noble birth wealth status you know having a nice house like being healthy having lots of friends are all good like generally people think that that constitutes good fortune and flourishing in life and then Socrates basically goes through the list and says but each one of these things things could potentially be bad there's another dialogue by Plato where he provides a much clearer counterargument where he says okay like so let's start with wealth is the easiest example well in the hands of somebody who's wise and virtuous would allow them to do more wise and virtuous things but if you give a big pile of money to somebody who's foolish and vicious it's just going to allow them to do more foolish and vicious stuff right and the same would apply to status and actually most of these external Goods as they're known in a sense are more like practical advantages or opportunities that you have in life what really matters is is how you make use of them whether you use them wisely or whether you use them foolishly so then doesn't that suggest that the only thing that's intrinsically good would be practical wisdom or moral wisdom yeah um because how you use other thing even the disadvantages you have even poverty and sickness might be used well by somebody who's profoundly wise right they might develop more resilience as a result they might learn from the experience for instance um but somebody who's foolish and vicious will use even every advantage in life badly yeah so it's by this kind of questioning method Socrates gets his interlocutors the usually young adult young men um just embarking on adult life basically to realize that the things that most people assume to be the goal of life like reputation and material success and stuff like that aren't really intrinsically the most important thing in life but what matters more is your ability to use these things well which is something that they tend to have neglected and not really discussed and so Socrates says that's what we should be talking about how do you use these things well and so the goal of Life of flourishing would consist in a kind of practical wisdom or moral wisdom and also in the realization that the prevailing values of our society are kind of back to front and the things that everybody has led to Value like consumerism and celebrity culture and all that kind of stuff is those are misplaced values basically isn't it interesting that it's the values of our society talking about this thousands of years ago and them being the same values that everybody is still being swayed by now I wonder about that you know I think there's got to be a reason for that and I don't pretend to know exactly what it is but the dent philosophers had some answers I believe that part of it is if you imagine when you're born as a child you're kind of a blank slate to some extent and you know you you start interacting with adults before you can even speak let alone reason and so you you just em emulate what you see other people doing as a small child and I think it partly comes from the fact that we model our values on other people's behavior so as a child growing up you think you take a look around you and you think what's all this meant to be about you think well everyone else seems obsessed with money and property and Status like so you just kind of naturally fall into that if you're not careful we are the progeny of uh Socratic societies culture eventually just a few thousand years down the line we're we're yeah like we're I think we're just a product of the the fact that we can't really understand each other deeply I think is the problem that we're basing our values and just observing other people's superficial Behavior so for example we might see you as a little kid you might see your dad working really hours and earning money you know to to kind of pay off the mortgage and stuff like that and if you're not careful you might think I guess I guess working hard and earning money is like is what life is all about but your dad might think well I'm doing that to care for my family for example like because I consider being a good father like to be what I want my life to be about so we don't necessarily observe the values that are driving other people's behavior internally we we we I think so we we fall into trap I this is my belief but over and over again because we are not able to see inside people's hearts like we end up with a superficial understanding of their values right and it's only over the course of Life as we develop the ability to reflect on our values and question them more deeply we start to think why are we doing all this stuff why why am I buying a house why you know why am I working long hours like it's for something deeper like it's in order to be a good person and a good parent and a good husband and stuff like that and I think one of the things that can help us achieve that realization and question the prevailing values of our society is uh death like you know because many people I think for whatever reason on their deathbed when they look back over the course of their life think was it really is it really worth spending your life just trying to earn as much money as possible was that what you know in retrospect my life have been about you know was like writing a bestselling book or something like really the most important thing or does it that seem trivial in retrospect when you know like you've only got a few days left to live or something like that but I mean if you're lucky maybe you have a brush with death early on and survive and it changes your perspective and it liberates you from these assumptions that we all have or sometimes when you're bereaved like you know I lost my father when I was quite young and I think to be honest that really shook me and made me kind of question what's the point of all of that CU I saw him um he died of lung cancer like he was bedridden for about a year so I had about a year just to observe my father dying slowly and think he seemed to be going through this process of questioning what his life had stood for and so when I was like 13 14 years old that kind of made me think GE I don't want to end up like that like at the end of my life thinking maybe I've spent my time and energy in the in the wrong way so these things and also sometimes I think having children and looking at your kids and thinking what you want for them and what values you want them to have if we approach it in the right way it can help us to gain some insight and start to question what our values are but if we don't do that we just look around us think everybody's obsessed with money and fame you know we end up entering into the rat race chasing around after that then one day you end up in your deathbed and the doctors tell you you've only got you know a few weeks left and you think you look back on and you think what a huge waste of time a lot of that was like you know maybe I've got like you know millions of dollars in my bank account but it's not you know you can't take it with you like you know does I really do anything that worthwhile in retrospect so that's why ancient philosophy is kind of obsessed with this question I def the other thing that could help us would be reading about philosophers who contemplate the problem of our own mortality like that's why Plato's apology is so influential because it depicts Socrates standing in court knowing he's about to be executed can you tell us the the story of the end of Socrates life what happened what was the buildup why did it occur it's slightly long and convoluted story um for some reason like he was brought to trial charges um were brought against him so in Athenian law other citizens could sue you and he was brought to court under charges of impiety and corrupting the youth what impiety like that he didn't believe in the traditional Gods basically and these are standard charges that were used against intellectuals basically you know there was nothing new about if you were like if you were too clever other people in Athens would say you're corrupting the youth right and if you question things excuse for Politically Incorrect blasphemy yeah you're you're you're you're engaged in blasphemy as well if you're starting to question you know some traditional religious ideas and stuff like that so it was kind of like stock charging away there are many reasons why uh some people think Socrates has had certain political views he also had friends that became controversial in Athenian Society um and so his association with certain influential figures might have been part of it and it might also be that he went around humiliating powerful people like he went up to politicians and said can you define the nature of justice and they'd be like I don't know like and that made them embarrassed and it made look stupid in front of their fans and followers and stuff and so they wanted for all of these reasons I mean socrates's execution was overdetermined like there were multiple reasons why people wanted him dead and some of it was propaganda like there were there was like I mentioned earlier there was a play about him that caricatured him so Socrates in the trial says a lot of you guys there were 500 people in the jury and he says most of you will know me mainly through this play like it would be like you you trial by media right so I've never met most of you but you've probably seen this play that makes me out to be this horrible corrupt pseudo intellectual right like a charlatan and stuff so that's what you'll be judging me based on and he stands up he was meant to Big for mercy in court he stands up in one of the first things he says is he refers to his military service and to paraphrase he basically says I went out and fought in these battles and faced death on behalf of Athens to defend the walls of the city and you guys told me that was honorable now I'm standing in court facing death because I believe in the practice of philosophy is a way of improving the people that live in the city what's the point in defending the walls of the city if the people that live in it are corrupt right so some of you think this is ridiculous that I'm willing to risk my life in coure but you praised me for risking my life in the military and this is actually much more important to me right is how he kind of starts off his defense in a in a way and then he goes on to talk about how he's not afraid of dying and all this kind of stuff and he kind of reasons that through but he doesn't beg for Mei he he's very Unapologetic in Plato's apology and uh and so the jury condemned him to death because of what zenfon called his big talk in cour like he was uh he was just they thought he would bring his family in and he would have them weeping in front because that was what was normal but right from the very beginning of the trial his family weren't even present so he made it clear that he wasn't going to beg for mercy before he even began speaking and he basically gives him a lecture on philosophy he carries on in court doing the very thing that he's on trial for in the court right like everything about Socrates was paradoxical but the other argument again there's many different aspects he's such he's like a peeling the layers of an onion back the other thing zenfon says Socrates was like 7172 he's pretty old for society and you know the kind of implication in some of the dialogues is he he thought well I'm starting to lose my faculties maybe I'm getting older becoming more of a burden to my family he'd reach a point where he thought rather than trying to kind of just keep extending my life indefinitely well him in Decline I'd rather go out with a bang and make this huge statement and he became a martyr for philosophy but say what you will about Socrates it worked in the even we're still talking about him and uh he became an icon to generations of young philosophers that followed him because they do you think he'd be less impactful if he hadn't died in that way 100% like he would still have had some impact but I I mean the most famous thing about Socrates in the ancient world is Plato's apology and the way that his Noble death uh when epic tetus the famous stoic philosopher who was teaching like 400 years later right so you know like that's Socrates is ancient history to Epic tetus he's the most famous quote from epicus the most famous quote in all of stoicism is people are not upset by events but by their opinions about them but no one of quotes what he says next in the following sentence he says for example death is not intrinsically terrible because if it were Socrates would have been afraid of dying and he wasn't right so this is an important argument that you find in Socrates but it's really highlighted in the stoics which is you know we use a similar kind of strategy in cognitive therapy if somebody's depressed or angry or frightened by something one of the first questions you'd normally ask is does everyone else feel the same way about it I mentioned lample is getting angry with his mom Socrates says does other do other people all find your mom unbearable or do other you know to certain people view her differently Socrates himself for example viewed it very differently he got nagged by his anthropy but it didn't really bother him right so one of the first questions we ask in cognitive therapy are are other perspectives available right is this the only way of looking at things or you know might you potentially see it differently epic's main example of that he goes straight for the jugular right he says we're not upset by things but by our opinions about them like even when it comes to death some people aren't scared of dying actually you know loads of people aren't scared of dying right um so there are many people I've found it's one of the weird things particularly younger people often find it inconceivable that someone wouldn't be afraid of dying but a lot of elderly people are resigned to their own death because they've been bereaved many times and maybe they've had many Health scares and so over the space of decades and some cases if not all you speak to elderly people and they say I've got I've got over it like you know I've had years and years to get used to the idea of dying so you know it doesn't really frighten me anymore more some elderly people are terrified at ding but others are surprisingly resigned to it Socrates again 7172 facing his trial he's an older guy living in a society where there's not a lot of medicine you know I think he's he's a sort of dude that was perfectly resig he lived through many dangerous it's it's hard to imagine how many brushes with death Socrates had had right I mean they tried to execute him I think about three or four times Al together under different political regimes you know he was involved in battles where thousands of people were killed around him and he lived through a plague you know that that killed tens of thousands of people in Athens so he was a guy who was well accustomed to the fragility of his own existence right I mean we live a very sh very very sheltered existence by comparison to that um but it's interesting that epic tius goes straight for that example look at he's he has Plato's apology in mind he's like you want to to know what it means to realize that it's your opinions that shape your fear look at the example of Socrates and how he was unafraid even of being executed in court that's your Prim that and that was that that was the Cardinal example um to Young philosophers in the ancient world it's wild to think of somebody so steadfast in their beliefs especially given the fact that almost all of their career was spent highlighting hypocrisy so it would have been odd Curtain Call had he have at the final imagine how much more tarnished his entire philosophical career would have been had he have done the pliable begging for mercy on the floor doing you know it would have it would have changed an awful lot I think about how people perceived his work in the cryto which is one of the dialogues that takes place when he's in prison he's in prison for about a month awaiting execution and his friends say listen we could just bribe the gods really easy and get you out of here and stuff he talks about this fact that it would be and it would make him ridiculous in his own eyes like if he now behaved in consistently with his values you know and that seems more I mean allegedly in the pho which is the the last dialogue chronologically when Socrates is drinks the actual Hemlock his they bring the poison to him and his friend kryo like his childhood friend who grew up in the same suburb of Athens as him kryo says to him um some people don't drink the poison straight away I mean I think you're actually allowed to have a final meal he had lots of friends around him when he was being executed if you can imagine that that was the norm yeah it was like a party there were like I suppose there were about 10 or 20 people that like so they come and visit him every day in in the prison like weird kind of scenario but they all gathered around and his family came his wife brought his kids he had a baby like his what we're told all we know is Zan zanth was carrying one of the children so Scholars think that kind of implies that it was a baby or a toddler Socrates still got it at 72 71 72 years old yeah so they say you don't have to drink it right away and he says it would seem ridiculous of me and I feel ridiculous in my own eyes to kind of try and eek out another you know half an hour he's like I I've been here for a month waiting to drink it he goes what am I going to do with another half you know like so that was his supposedly his thinking was I'm ready like I've prepared myself for this i' I'd just I'd feel like a coward and it would seem inconsistent of me and ridiculous if I was like yeah yeah you're right maybe I could leek out another hour or so before I have to drink it so I'm ready to drink it like I've been sitting here for a month getting ready to drink it like so the thing uh you've mentioned the stoic a couple of times I'd like to talk about his sort of enduring influence on them and links between the two but but the first person that comes to mind for me is sen somebody for whom uh proclamations and fantastic contributions to thought and philosophy and stuff were replete but in his private life when the rubber met the road so to speak he was much more malleable he was playing these sorts of game political games and and and backbiting and and sucking up to people and so on and so forth this is controversially yeah siic has always been a divisive and controversial figure in some ways he he could be compared to Socrates Socrates had a friend and possibly a lover called alabes who was you know one of the most influential Statesmen he was appointed the commander-in-chief of the Athenian military at one point the most senior Statesman in Athens like almost like an emperor over what was evolving in what had evolved into an Athenian Empire and he was like one of socrates's best friends and closest Associates so his relationship with alabi is like trying to get him to be a better ruler and stuff is a bit like senica in his relationship with Nero but senica I mean it's it wouldn't be some people we'll find this controversial but although we think of senica as a stoic philosopher he was famous primarily as an author not as a philosophy teacher he probably didn't teach that much philosophy to Nero he mainly trained him in rhetoric so in some regards senica was more like a Latin sophist than a philosopher the sophists often quoted philosophy like they made speeches out of it and things but they didn't attempt to live in accord with it and the way that the stoics or Socrates did so senica is somewhere in between it may be that towards the end of his life he embraced philosophy more fully I think earlier in his life philosophy was more something he used to become a famous author he became famous by writing consolation letters using stoicism to people that had been bereaved that were wealthy influential figures he was like a self-help Guru to the rich and famous in uh Roman society and that's how he ended up becoming an adviser to Nero so he was a figure that really was compromised by that in a number of ways he was Nero's right-hand man Nero was like a despot a um and he also wrote speeches defending Nero in the Senate um and trying to I mean ridiculous like thing like saying that he was virtually a philosopher king and that he his hands were unstained by Blood and all this kind of you couldn't really imagine Socrates saying no I mean Socrates never sullied himself in that way um there's a guy the Marcus aurelus is ret teacher um we have his private letters and Marcus is talking to him about Sena we don't see what Marcus wrote unfortunately we only see uh fronto's replies fronto can't stand Sena and he died you know a few Generations earlier but I think it's partly he doesn't like his writing style but he says looking for Perils of wisdom in senica's writings would be like someone grubbing around in the bottom of sewer trying to dig a few silver coins out of the filth right which is a kind of what the kids they call a sick burn right that's only something that another sophist could have come up with right is a as an insult but I think what he means is that Sena in in Rome would have been known more than today for his political speeches defending Nero and we have a couple of examples of those like we have on clemency for example which is this letter to uh Nero that was probably made public that kind of puts Nero in something of a pedestal also tries to improve his character and teach him more clemency or Mercy but at the same time it Praises him as a great ruler like which is ridiculous he was a tyrant and at the same time that Sena was defending Nero and propping up his regime there were other stoics that were fighting against Nero and opposing him in the Senate they're called the stoic opposition and several of them died or were exiled defying uh defying Nero epic tetus who was kind of on the periphery of this because epic tus kind of came from the Next Generation but he was a slave owned by Nero's Greek secretary a guy called epaphroditus who was perhaps also Nero's bodyguard uh according to One Source he's certainly very very close to Nero um epicus idolizes the stoic opposition and never mentioned Sena once so he clearly felt those were the the stoics from that generation that he looked up to and and Sena was seen even by all stoics at the time as a guy that had maybe compromised himself morally what is the truth that we know about whether Socrates was really ugly or not that's actually a contested Point there's a really cool book that came out recently by Armand dangu a classicist um who wrote a book called Socrates and love that I really like that's kind of speculative biography of Socrates and he claims that soes was probably not as ugly as he's made out to be and that particularly younger in life he may have been quite a veril and attractive guy but I mean socrates's friends describe him as walking like a pelican having eyes like a crab having a face Like a Torpedo fish and and uh being balding and po bellied so and he looks like a SAT as well we're told like one of those kind of goat uh F pan or whatever so those are his friends right that and so I guess it's partly the Athenian culture they were kind of ribbing him a bit and stuff if you go to Athens today there's a a famous statue of Socrates a modern statue of him outside the University where he's incredibly buff like I mean he definitely looks like he's been lifting weights but that's a modern representation of him the ancient sculptures we have of him are this little pop bellied old man you know that's more of a kind of what seen as a bit of a presented as more of a comedy character almost so yeah he makes fun of it in zenfon Symposium Socrates jokes and he says that I think if we had a beauty contest I would win it and everyone kind of rolls about laughing at this it seems ridiculous to them but he then it leads into him having a ation about how they Define Beauty and uh you know he starts to question whether you know beauty is actually something that comes from a person's character you know and he thinks he he says he's confident that he would win on those terms but his friends still think it's a bit ridiculous of them they thought Zenon Zenon to his credit says you know you learn more about Wise Men by seeing them at their Leisure I believe that's how he begins the Symposium it's a a drinking party and he presents SES as is this guy who's quite witty and humorous right so he says things where he he Socrates was the type of guy that would say something to you and you think is he joking is he serious and the answer is yes and no like he's kind of joking and serious at this he's kind of both joking and serious at the same time often I feel was the I can't remember who it was from that era of philosophers I seem to remember a story of one of those philosophers complaining that every time they went to dinner or had a party uh the people got too drunk and one of the solutions to people getting too drunk would be to reduce the size of the cups if only we could make the size of the cups smaller was that Socrates yeah I think that's in zenun Symposium if or it might be in Plato's Symposium like in one of the symposiums like he says he Rec and they do it he says he asked them to bring out smaller cops and he says if we use small we could moderate our our drinking for getting too drunk ruining the quality of the conversation he says alcohol I think this is in zenonos he says alcohol is like watering a plant he goes if you don't give it enough then it kind of shovels up and dies like but if you give it too much then it it wilts and it goes this is the effect that I think wine has on conversation at a dinner party you've got to find just the right level so that people loosen up and you have a so he wasn't completely in favor of abstinence he thought if you the right amount of wine was conducive to a good philosophical conversation and a dinner party didn't he stand in one place for a day at one point well don't we all no not normally no no I know I do but no he he stood for 24 hours he's we're told from Sunrise one day to Sunrise the next day and puta in the middle of a battle no well not in the B like while they were besieging the city where in the north of Greece he we're told that he just froze and the other some of the other soldiers camped beside him overnight because they were kind of like is he going to is he really going to stand here all night Barefoot like in the cold like they like they were having BS on it or something and they watched him and he he in the morning I believe Plato says that he said a prayer to the Rising Sun which may have been associated with god Apollo one of the themes that runs through the dialogues is soc's association with the god Apollo there's a debate about whether Apollo was associated with the son that early I think he was like so it might be Socrates saw the sun as an embodiment of the god Apollo who's the kind of the patron God of philosophy and it was the Priestess of Apollo who said no man is wiser than than Socrates and it was outside the the Temple of Apollo that says G TH or know thyself which is you know this I statement Max that became a kind of theme for the Socratic method in a way it was pursuing self- knowledge but he was in a habit of Plato tells us he he used to regularly just freeze and meditate going a TR what's the can you dig into the know thyself thing yeah I mean it comes up again and again in different dialogues I'll tell you something really cool about it there's a dialogue that I think is authentically attributed to PL to but other some Scholars have question it doesn't matter in a way somebody wrote it like thousands of years ago so there's a dialogue called the first alabes that's about Socrates having a a dialogue with this great Statesman I mean alab someone said recently on Twitter they should make a a movie about alabid he has one of the most dramatic and colorful and exciting you know lives and he was socrates's you know companion Socrates saved his life in battle you know I mean honestly you could his life is so cinematic it's like it's huge epic adventure story now in this dialogue Socrates questions whether alabes is competent to become a political leader a Statesman he proves to him by questioning that he doesn't really understand anything about the nature of justice but he should and then this leads into a conversation about G no thyself and Socrates said h s alabes you know what do you think it means and he's like well I mean I would think that I know myself but you know so says well it's not just like knowing the name of something it's about really understanding it he goes this is how I understand it and then he says often you get these remarkable metaphors or images in ancient literature and this is one of my favorites Socrates says that self- knowledge is like an eye that sees itself right it's the eye that sees itself he said it's like the God said that you instructed your eye to see itself when he says that the Mind should know itself and he says Al how can the eye see itself and Al is I like in a mirror like and Socrates says well done so how would the Mind know Itself by analogy and they'll is like I guess you'd need some kind of mirror for your mind like I don't know how that would work though and Socrates basically implies because he's often a bit vague about things he's he's engaging this question and answer method and just giving a lecture so he basically implies to alabes that engaging in philosophical dialogue or ation with other people is a mirror for our own soul and he understands that we're biased I mean he was again way ahead of his time in this regard so and by the way this is another problem for modern self-help right so there are many problems with self-help one of the problems with self-help is the self part right the person in a sense the person least qualified to help you like is your because I don't know if you've noticed that there's actually research that shows this right I'm going all over the place sorry but the I interviewed recently a guy called Igor grman who you should speak to right he's a professor at the University of Walo who does research on the nature of wisdom right and he has research that shows that confirms the suspicion that we all have that we're much better at giving other people advice than we are at giving ourselves advice right this is a sensitive subject for psychotherapists right because all we do is give other people advice and stuff but if you go to psych conference and walk in the door you would notice immediately that it's full of some of the craziest people you ever meet in your life like saying being able to give advice to other people is not reliable evidence that you can give advice to yourself yeah but over time I think if you approach it in the right way and I think it has something to do with empathy right if you identify with your clients in a sense that you you put yourself in their shoes and you empathize with them you might to put it very simply start to think maybe I do some of the things that they do too right maybe by helping them to see through their own mistakes and to troubleshoot them I could kind of indirectly learn something about myself right but we're better at giving other people advice it has been proven by Professor Gusman's research than we are giving ourselves advice and Socrates seems to realize that this is partly why he thinks engaging in philosophical dialogue about the most important questions in life as he puts it it is so important um this provides the best mirror like he can imagine for learning about our own soul our own mind and coming to to know ourselves knowing our strengths and weaknesses or our limitations and so on there's another technique that he kind of uses I think that Professor Gman has done research on it might be worth mentioning because I know people are interested in this uh Prof Igor Gman based on his observations based on his research did a study um and there there are several studies like this where they asked people to keep a journal where they describe they have two groups and one group describes their relationship problems and so on and you know attempting to to resolve them in the first person and the other group do the same thing but in the third person so rather than saying you know oh I forgot my wife's birthday and she got really upset with me and I don't know how to make it up to her like I would say Donald forgot his wife's birthday and she became really upset with him so on the third person right as if I'm giving advice to another person right and they found so they said what happens if you make yourself do this and by they call it distant self-reflection so by keeping a journal in the third person they found that people exhibited measurably more wisdom in the advice and the the solutions that they came up with for themselves now Socrates does something a bit like that he doesn't talk to himself that much in the third person but usually in the second person he engages in imaginary or hypothetical dialogues quite a lot so for example he imagines arguing with the laws of Athens at one point in the crius and the laws of Athens say you know start criticizing him and questioning him so they say he imagines that the laws are saying to him Socrates you're contradicting yourself in this way and that way and so on and you're mistaken about that's right but that's just an opportunity for him to critique himself in the second person and by name so with greater objectivity basically and actually recycling some of the skills that he's honed by critiquing other people and applying the Socratic method to them in in real like in the flesh dialogues it sounds to me like this guy is infallible he lived the philosophy everything that he said was done with virtue very very accurate where are Socrates biggest we weaknesses philosophically in your opinion oh there there are many um I mean I told you he's like Jimmy Hendrick right so some people might look at Jimmy Hendricks and they might think well he's not you know maybe he's not like the technically the best guitarist that's ever lived but there's no there's still something kind of really unique about him right there was only ever one Jimmy Hendrick like there's nobody else really that kind of sounds exactly like him and so Socrates is I mean mean the odd thing is that many academic philosophers will disagree with most of what Socrates says right and they'll often think that his arguments are incomplete the there are gaps in them that they're not very convincing and I think even Socrates realized this but the those dialogues weren't written necessarily to persuade people that they should agree with him they're more like teaching AIDs that are designed like an assault course for the mind so they're meant to train us to be able to Think Through puzzles from different perspectives right that's why I said you know what we learn from soes MO is the method and he kind of implies certain really interesting conclusions but they're often very radical conclusions it might be worth mentioning some of them see so people usually most philosophers disagree with them but they there's one of the ancient dialogues has Socrates saying when you talk to a wise person it's like being bitten by a small insight like a mosquito or something right and you might not even notice when it happens but then hours later or the next day you suddenly start to itch in the spot where you were bitten and so people would say that's what it's like when you talk to Socrates like he'll say stuff and you think that's a stupid argument soes doesn't it's not really convincing it doesn't make any sense and then 10 years later you're still thinking about it and it's kind of bothering you right but for instance one of the other things I I I wrote about my book because again it's very interesting in relation to Modern psychology Socrates had this radical position that uh Injustice harms the perpetrator more than it does the victim and he repeats this quite a lot so people you might people who read that think that's that's a hard view to accept but no one ever forgets it anyone that reads the platonic dialogues decades later we think remember Socrates kept going on about this idea that acts of Injustice harm the perpetrator more than they do the victim in court he said you guys that are putting me on trial and convincing the jury to sentence me to death unjustly or harming yourselves more than you're harming me epic tetus had quotes him at the last sentence of the inidian he says anitus and meitus the two guys that brought him to trial can kill me but they cannot harm me which is like CRA you know crazy that's hardcore no first of all the guy that believes that like hats off to him like you know no wonder he was resilient do we agree with him I there might be a case for it but it's an extreme like you a bit like you know an extreme version of stoicism basically nevertheless in relation to Modern psychology I think there's a lot we can take from it so there's a body of research that shows that people who suffer from clinical depression tend to have high levels of perceived Injustice right and we also know that anger is linked to depression and anger is also very directly linked to the perception of Injustice right so how could our philosophy of Justice affect emotions like anger and depression well if we agreed with Socrates right that our own Injustice does us more harm than the Injustice of others then maybe we wouldn't become as depressed when we perceive Injustice in the world around us we might still object to it we might still defy it but we might respond to it differently emotionally like Socrates was Fearless in coure because he believed that the acts of Injustice being inflicted on him couldn't really harm him because they they could take away his property like his reputation and even his life but they couldn't harm his moral character and that was the most important thing to him on his deathbed he'd think did I maintain my Integrity throughout life you guys can't take that away from me only I can do that to myself right now what's true in anyone's eyes whether even if they don't go as far as that time and time again what you'll find in therapy when you're working with people who are very angry um for instance is that their anger usually just at a practical level does them more harm than the things that they're angry about right maybe not in every single case but do I I struggle to think of a case where that's not true like and virtually every client I work with when we sit down and go what are the consequences of your anger how do because and the one reason for that is that anger by its very nature impaires our ability to think about the consequence is that's why angry people act impulsively right it's well known there there's a large body of psychological research so that shows surprise surprise angry people behave impulsively but they do that because they're not thinking straight and they're not able to really think through and we up the consequences of their action they tend to think very short term we all do when we get really angry um we we're not we don't become really good at at nuanced social problem solving when we're angry generally it's like you know we become a kind of blunt instrument and that's highlighted by the fact that very often angry people a day later or weeks later regret what they did when they're angry because now they're not angry and they're thinking about the longer term consequences and The Wider impact of what they did so maybe some guy gets really angry he tells his wife to shut up and he gets what he wants maybe she does shut up right in the moment so it seems successful makes him seem powerful and then she divorces him right so destroys a relationship right I mean to caricature it a little bit but often what we struggle to do is kind of think about the wider impact right and think the about the longer term consequences of anger and particularly in terms of relationships where it's complex anger impaires our ability to empathize with other people and if it when we get angry we tend to engage in what's known as hostile attribution bias so we usually think of people as acting just out of hostility towards us rather whereas normally if if I say oh why did that guy not send me a Christmas card this year right I might I might go well there probably a bunch of possible explanations for that right maybe there's several reasons depending how you look at it you know whereas if I'm angry I think just because he's a jerk that's why he did it right out of just pure hostility right so we tend to have a very monolithic and simplistic understanding of other people's motives when we're angry but that makes us rubbish at social problem solving you know anger is really bad for you know maintaining any kind of healthy relationship so by its very nature it it means that we've tend to underestimate the negative consequences of it so in therapy it's easy to go you just sit with people and you draw a little list and you go you know what are all the ways in which anger is harming your physical health your mental health your relationship with other people the other weird thing about it anger tends to spread so if I get angry I could be watching TV and get really angry with some politician that I don't like you know and then I turn around you know and I snap angrily at my cat right now my cat has done nothing right but it's not even involved in American politics in any shape or form right but because I'm annoyed with some politician that's on the news or whatever I'm now also you know by associated I'm just annoyed with my cat as well because I'm in an angry frame of mind you know and maybe I'm going to be about short you know my wife might say what do you want for dinner you know and I'll ask me later right because I'm annoyed with you know some uh so-called politician right um so anger harms our relationships even with the people that were not initially angry with you know we get angry with our perceived enemies but we end up taking it out in our friends as well if we're not careful so people massively underestimate the negative consequences of anger like and so usually in therapy what people find is yes anger your own anger is doing you more harm than the thing the politicians said on TV or somebody not sending your Christmas cards or the thing not maybe in every case but and really for practical purposes in the majority of cases that we end up dealing with so he was Socrates took it way further but nevertheless there's something really interesting about the point that he's making I speaking of anger and frustration I seem to remember you saying that you thought it would be impossible to write this book think I did think it was impossible why um I really did I I thought it was impossible to write it uh because I thought Socrates was too complex a character the pipian war is really annoying um there's like something like three 00 Greek states were involved in it it went on for 27 years so the politics of it and the history of it are so complex right I thought how can I summarize that and condense it into a book and have the life of Socrates as a philosopher have some discussion of philosophy and philosophical dialogues and have some Modern psychology and fit it all into 50,000 words it just seemed like it would take you know three different books right but then I don't know how exactly I changed my mind but what what I realized was that I could maybe I think what I I did was I gave up trying to attempt a more academic history and I I said from the out say I'm going to approach this like I'm writing a movie screenplay and so it'll be a kind of dramatized version I'm going to make it as close to the historical sources as I possibly can but I'm going to have to take two characters and points and combine them together for Simplicity I'm going to have to massively abbreviate some of his arguments and just give like key selections out of them and I'm going to have to figure out ways to you know to kind of simplify the the history of the pipian war so you know I I'm kind of surprised that I managed to compress all of that into one book but I you know I thought very long and hard about how to do it like and you know there was a lot of planning that went into it I I think I put four times as much work into this book as I put into the proceeding like how to think like a Roman Emperor is it well I mean you're you're looking at secondhand sources uh very little direct I mean even with that I I learned this from uh from you as well that even when we think about Marcus aelius and how much information we have about him because you know we've got his direct writings and he was an emperor and you know prestigious and stuff like that but even with him because he didn't really do that much wrong there wasn't that much writing about him he didn't just he simply attract insufficient drama so then you think okay we have this guy of whom there are significantly better recorded people from history and he is the well recorded version compared with the new book I'm about to write which is this bloke who I've got like basically wire Taps of like ancient wi Taps and that's the best that I can go on yeah there's really frustrating things but like for so so this thing about going to delie and the pronouncement is is presented as a key moment in his life we've really got no I we don't know for certain when it happened right so for instance we don't know if it happened before or after other key events in his life and then it would change the whole narrative so with things like that you just have to go we could write an academic history where we argue about the possible dates but in order to write a movie you'd have to go we have to pick a date got pick one it could be like one of like maybe three different you just got to choose one and go with it in order to be able to tell the story and and that's I guess that's what liberated me is I just thought it needs to just be approached like we're writing a graphic novel or did you did that as well you're a man of many literary uh Pathways now I take some satisfaction in that like you know there some auth thought are just write the same book over and over again and I didn't really I don't know that I did this deliberately it' be like an actor that just plays the same kind of characters over and over and then you've got other people that do lots of different things but I look back at the books that I've written that you know um although I did actually write three books in a row about Marcus aurelus they're they're all different genres like one's are more of an academic history one's a self-help book one's a graphic novel so I if I look at the books I've probably written about eight books they're all they're all quite different from each other like I I feel like I kind of stretched myself I mean the pros cons of that or sometimes when you stretch yourself and do something you haven't done before you can kind of fall flat in your face and maybe you figure out it's not your fory or whatever you know but the positive side is that that's how you grow like you know by taking a chance and and doing something that's you know something you never even imagined that you'd be doing I think that was part of it as well I kind of thought it's too difficult to write a book like this about Socrates um and I thought what you know as I get older I'm less afraid of making mistakes you know and I thought what's the worst that can happen maybe I'll just mess it up and the book will be rubbish or something like you know I thought yeah I think I'd rather just try have a go at doing it I think the other thing that swings it for me is I really always approach it with this question in mind I imagine that if I could go back in time and kind of give the book that I'm writing to my 17y old self for when I was 15 or something like I think what would I want to write in a book that I'm giving to my younger self and you know would I be kind of ashamed to write a book and then maybe we go okay we pick one of these dates for when the pronouncement was made at Delia oh damn we got it wrong you know like so maybe the chronology is a little bit off or something like that or there's some other debatable historical point would my 17-year-old self care about that or would he just think I don't really care like if there's one or two details that are debatable the story is really awesome and it kind of gave me a it's interestingly very Socratic to go about things like that okay how how can we apply this practically how useful is this what and it's also very uh aelia in to debating about what a good man is versus being one well sometimes people ask you you know how'd you go about writing a book right and I don't think I've ever said this in my podcast before but like funny enough the answer to this is kind of weird right there's a bunch of things I do that are quite specific like one is that I write the audio book first right um so when I'm writing a book I'm not writing a print book I think I'm writing an audio book and as part of that I'll read it aloud a lot and I'll pay somebody like a local barid or something like to come or one of my friends friends or whatever like to come over and I'll give them a case of beer like you know and I'll pay them whatever per hour and I'll give them a big print out of the manuscript and I say read the entire thing to me right it takes I think last time we did it it took 12 hours like I've got a video of the aftermath where like sliding out of our chair you know like we got like some snacks ped up we we I think it was 12 hours Maddie um I think was the name of the my friend's friend that came over and read through the hole of how to think like a so like Socrates I think I did it several times because I wanted to know what it sounded like as well as reading it on the page but the other thing I would do is I normally work in the library and I would sit with a timer and I'd practice a meditation technique for 10 minutes called the Benson method where that's well known in Psychotherapy so I just repeat a word over and over and I try and notice that I'm doing this voluntarily but there's also intrusive automatic thoughts that pop into my mind so I try to become clearer about the differentiation between what I'm thinking voluntarily I might just I normally just say the number one um or I count down from 10 to zero over and over again on each out breath like one one number like 10 nine eight and then start again like because then if you're counting in your mind attention wonders you're more likely to notice it because you broken the sequence right and uh I'll observe I'll think I'm doing this voluntarily I'm counting voluntarily but if I suddenly think about paying my taxes or something I'll go that's an automatic thought I choose to think that I just pops into my mind so I kind of trained myself to become more aware that distinction then for 10 minut I would imagine that I'm in Academia platinos in Greece like I wrote about at the beginning of the book and imagine I'm talking to Socrates right and the first thing i' would always do Chris is shake his hand right and it took a qu surprisingly long time for him to get used to that like I think it seems kind of I always remember like you know my imaginary Socrates like in my mind he I insisted in shaking his hand but he thought it was a bit weird at first right and I would say to him like I'd ask him lots of questions right about anything that was kind struggling with in the book and what I generally found any of the history stuff his opinion what you know I'd be like trying to think we need to kind IR on this out and get it accurate and stuff and he would always my imaginary Socrates anyway would always be like who cares you know it's like I don't even know why you know he he seemed to place surprisingly little importance on getting it historically accurate and he said no there's just focus on telling the story of the literary character of Socrates in a way that people interested in the philosophy that's what actually matters right you know there are other books that you can go and read where people try and argue through the evidence and you know try to get to truth I've been thinking about something not too dissimilar a little bit more generalized but I think what you're getting at as well which is this odd split on the internet that we have at the moment um one is Extreme credentialism which I call experts only uh if you don't have the requisite background a lot of the time you're criticized for what you know what do you know you're not a dot dot dot psychotherapist psychedelics expert Sports and physio person whatever whatever you're pontificating about and um the reason I don't like it is that it's gotten rid of I think uh what Oscar wild called the Oxford Mana which is uh the the ability to play gracefully with ideas and it seems that very much the Socratic method is that and then on the other side you have this sort of over romanticization of the Renegade untrained uh sort of um orthogonal thinker so we have these two worlds and and you can kind of deploy them uh to whichever you need in order to make the other side seem stupid so they don't have the credentials or this person is a a flame wielding truth Warrior yeah they did it outside of the establishment that's how they actually really know what's going on but there very there's a large number of ways where unless you have a completely Stellar academic career it's unfettered by any kind of controversy or falling short at any time it seems to me that that bar is unreasonably high for most pretty much everybody to get over and on top of all of that it makes for a much less interesting world because nobody's allowed to play with ideas outside of their domain of uh credentialed competence see you are thinking about it in a more Socratic way because you you're the very fact you're going well can I see it from more than one perspective and there's pros so the role that you always have to be qualified will maybe there's some exceptions to that right and you can easily think of examples of great thinkers in the past that that that weren't qualified they were Outsiders or talented amateurs or whatever but on the other hand having zero qualifications in certain subjects clearly in some cases just leads to Dun and Krueger effect and people making school boy errors that are just like almost cringeworthy like if you you know about the subject um I mean like the most obvious example of that I think is the internet is absolutely a wash where with uh people that can't tell the difference between causation and correlation and medical research like but like newspapers and magazines have like exploited that confusion for Generations but now it's become like a much bigger thing on the internet so like understanding kind of like basic medical research methods like you know it not getting confused about that like does lead a lot of people to make basic mistakes right basically to misinterpret if you don't know like during the pandemic every five minutes people were waving around research studies and stuff that had never they didn't have any medical research right so they they had no idea what the stuff they were reading actually meant and over and over again they're kind of like just making the kind of mistakes that you would get taught not to make right so there's there are problems that happen um and there are people when they discuss ancient philosophy that make errors that an academic philosopher maybe wouldn't make but yeah I don't think there's a conclusive answer to this but you I think we just need to be aware I think the best thing is just to kind of be aware of what are the pros and cons in the same way that you know for any self-help technique just at least sit down and make a list of what are the strengths and weaknesses of this what's a good way and a bad way of doing it so you've got slightly more nuanced understanding of it not like just a kind of rigid understanding but I think in generally you know this thing about amateurs versus experts is similar like there's pros and cons to it just knowing what those are is perhaps the main thing I I mean I can tell you over the years i' I've I'm friends with and know many uh well respected academics historians classicists philosophers um you know and I guess my attitude has changed a little bit from my experience over time um sometimes there are people that are incredibly highly qualified in the subject and say stuff that's Bonkers like that's you know the other experts in the fields just think they've lost their mind like you know that again they're making mistakes that a first year student would fail a assignment for for doing right I mean it's weird when you see that but it happens a lot like you get books by people that are professors of philosophy or psychology or whatever and you think a first year undergraduate student would get lambasted for saying this stuff is crazy like but so you know it they're not the most highly credential people are often not experts and there's there's also a a well-known problem with expertise um like there's actually statistical research that shows that s like review narrative reviews of medical research that are done by experts in a particular field tend to be unreliable so normally you'd think this guy's like a one of the most experienced heart surgeons in the world like so he's written an article reviewing all the research it should be authorative because he really knows what he's talking about but experts are often biased and they're particularly prone to committing the cherry picking fallacy so they just pick out studies that support their pet Theory whereas professional statisticians that don't have any skin in the game will just look at what all of the research says and be really you know cast a cold eye over it you know and they're saying No this is what the the research actually shows this guy's just telling you what half of the research says you know because it supports his P Theory and experts in a field or if you want to put it another way people that are really invested in certain theories that have been doing it for a long time can be biased right and so their their version of things could be quite distorted but um I think the the other difficulty I wanted to mention to you in terms of this idea of getting information from experts and you know becoming kind of passive rather than depending on our own reason there's another piece of research that's very influential in in state-of-the-art like modern behavioral psychology which shows there's a problem with something called R governed Behavior so if you get two groups of participants in a study and you teach them how to solve some you give them you give them a puzzle they have to Sol like pressing three buttons in a particular order or whatever and if they get it right they get reward if they get it wrong like maybe you know they get some punishment or buzzer goes off or something like that they lose points or whatever right and in one group you just give them oral or written instructions let's say this is how you uh solve the puzzle the other group they have to figure out through trial and error right this is phase one of the experiment in phase two so they do it repeatedly in phase two the rules that govern success change without telling them right so they have to adapt basically you create a circumstance where they have to adapt one group have been verbally given the rule or solution the other group had to figure out through trial and error the group that have learned the rule verbally will keep trying it even though it's not working whereas the group that had to figure it out themselves will adapt much more quickly so we call this insensitivity to environmental change right and the reason it's really important is that's exactly what people who come for Psychotherapy are doing they're usually using some strategy that's not working and so the puzzle is why do they keep doing it when it's clearly not like why do they keep yelling at their Partners when and when they and they keep their relationships keep breaking up as a result surely like after a while they'd kind of figure out this isn't working out for me and they'd start to adapt and change so what is causing the rigidity in the their behavior and one of the explanations is that when we learn a role from other people passively like or sometimes even if we get it from a book or something like that it we tend there's a tendency an established tendency to overextend it and apply it to rigidly and that that can cause problems Donald Robertson ladies and gentlemen dude I love you I love all of the work that you do every time that you bring a new book out I'm super excited have you got any idea what you're working on next I know you've got your sub St and stuff like that going well i' I've written a bit like famous philosophers and stuff Chris but I mean all honesty the the thing that's I sat down and I kind of thought what if I could only write one more book you know what do I really really really really want to write a book about and I thought I want write something that I really feel is going to benefit the maximum number of people so what one of the biggest problems I think people have and it's something we've talked a lot about today you know for that reason because it's kind of on my mind I want to write a book about the philosophy and psychology of anger right because there's it's one of those areas where there's a huge Gulf between stuff that we actually know from psychological research we know loads about anger but most people aren't told about any of the research so you know and anger plays a huge role in politics and on the internet we've got like s trolling and cyber bullying and so much kind of aggression on social media and so much kind of hostility and aggression in politics but none of us are looking at it and thinking oh when people get angry like their thinking becomes skewed like for example when people get angry it's well known that they underestimate risk so when you're really angry you tend to expose yourself and other people around you to more danger than normal right we know loads of things like that about anger right but no one most the majority of people aren't aware that the research tells us all this kind of stuff so to them anger is just a feeling like it's not something that changes their thinking and you know if that's what anger does like how does it affect the electorate how does it affect the behavior of politicians like there are measurable problems that it would cause so I think there's a lot to be said we've got some great like senica has an entire book called on anger you know and it's we can easily compare all of that ancient philosophical literature to what some of the psychological research says today so I think people can benefit a lot from working I call Anger Management the Royal Road to self-improvement because most people that seek self-improvement like anxiety and depression are self-blaming emotions right uh so people that are anxious or depressed tend to seek self-help or therapy but angry people don't seek therapy typically because if I'm really angry Chris I think you need therapy buddy not me right so like angry people avoid self-help instead so you know that's why you could go online and you see kind of self-improvement communities like the manosphere for example in some cases and there seems to be a lot of really angry people yet they're talking about self-improvement have I don't know if you noticed that a little bit yeah I mean I certainly know that um anybody that's ruminative uh in the depression or anxiety world uh they've considered every six ways to Sunday different solution they come up with I don't know that many angry people uh I think I'm uh I tend to try and avoid them or maybe they hide themselves from me I'm not sure you well you know if you read the comments on YouTube videos and things like that angry angry people there's a lot of angry people social media Don where should people go they want to keep up to date with all of the things you're doing well they can find me on substack like that's probably where I mainly put stuff and my website is just Donald robertson. name um and then yeah like if they look me up online I'm involved with a nonprofit two nonprofits one's a modern stoicism organization which is running stoic week at the moment and then the other one is a charity or nonprofit that we founded in in Greece called the Plato's Academy Center where we're trying to raise funds to create a conference center adjacent to the original location of Plato's Academy so those are the two things I'm interested in people want to check those out as well I need to give them a bit of a plug Chris but uh as always you know absolute pleasure cuz you're exactly you know when I'm writing books it's kind of guys like you that I kind of Imagine reading them you know like I can see how passionate you are about these subjects and you know like I I hope that I it's it's reassuring to me that you find this stuff interesting you keep coming back on you write you you write something and we'll sit down for two hours and talk about it every time it happens I want to do um I want to do an episode with you a primer on CBT so maybe in the next sort of six months or so we'll we'll find a a time slot that works and really want to try and just do a 30,000 foot view the biggest principles the biggest learnings and lessons my specialism was always always what I used to train therapists and I would always say that I was a techniques guy right so I was really interested in classifying different psychological techniques and comparing them and training we used to train people and gather data and all of these scripted exercises that we had so I love teaching people and I feel like when we do when I do interviews and things like that the one thing I'd love to do more of is just say to people this is how you actually do this visualization Tech this is technique this is how you do this meditation technique like let's go through a bunch of them and show you how to actually I would absolutely love to do that and I think uh you know the more I haven't really been exposed properly to that much CBT which is I I feel increasingly embarrassed about it's like this sort of elephant in the room uh that I get the impression much of the stuff that I consider as being sort of self-discovered wisdom that I'm all proud proud and sort of follow myself for I'm like if IID just read enough CBT i' would have probably come across this already all of the biggest realizations seem to have been arrived at by CBT in one form or another so I'm looking forward to maybe having the uh uh egotistical veils ripped from my eyes about my own beautiful ideas instead and uh yeah we'll do that one next Don I appreciate the hell out of you uh thank you very much for today thanks man it's been a pleasure I really enjoyed it it's good to see you again and you thank you very much for tuning in if you enjoyed that episode there is something else you will absolutely love right here go on give it a tap