An Immigrant’s Story of Coming to America, and Thriving (Journeys of the Mind)

Hello, this is Carl Aerman, host of Journeys of the Mind under that at the broader rubric, Think Tech Hawaii. Today we want to welcome Hugh Deen Wyn who is here to talk about the immigrant experience, but the immigrant that's been very successful. And we do so because there's all this talk about immigration today and um unfortunately you know um uh some immigrants are not being treated that well. So the question at the end of the show that I'll be asking Hugh so you can get prepared for this uh is you know is the American dream still possible uh for the immigrant coming to Hawaii. So Hugh welcome very much to Journeys of the Mind. >> Thank you Carl. It's very much of an honor for me to be here. Thank you. >> Okay. And I I have to say, you know, at the beginning that he's my friend. So, this is a pleasure to do this show. So, Hugh, uh, describe your experience in coming to the United States because I know that you, um, have, you know, great stories and I also know that you have some pictures that you want to show. >> Sure. So, um, I was born in Vietnam in, uh, you know, in in the time of the war in Vietnam. And so when the war ended in 1975, you know, uh our family were not political. So we were like not really like bothered that much by the new government, but unfortunately, you know, the war may have ended with the United States and the civil war may have ended, but there was continual warfare with, you know, our neighbors. you know uh in Cambodia the Cameroon Rouge came to power and uh there was warfare there on the border of Vietnam Cambodia and then China invaded Vietnam in a in 1978 because you know China was supporting Kouge and so it created a lot of uh fear in my family because um you know my mother and my father both of the youngest siblings died during the war right and And in 78, you know, my brother turned 18 years old and he was drafted into the army. And so my mother didn't want him to go to war. Uh, you know, and you know, my mother was born in 1930s. And all she knew her whole life was warfare, you know, with the with the French and the Japanese, then, you know, the American and then her, you know, her her youngest brother died. And so the decision was made to leave Vietnam by both. And there was a huge exodus from Vietnam in the late 70s and we were part of that. Um and uh we left by boat in 1979. >> What was that experience like? I mean you know I mean for most Americans this is a I mean you know we have the symbol of Ellis Island and we also have you know for those of us who came originally from Europe but what was it like? I mean what was it what was that boat experience like if you can remember? I don't know if you were too young but you know uh uh why don't you describe that for us? Now, I was 10 years old at the time, so I remember some of it. What I've done over the years is that I uh I interview my mother and my sisters. So, before my mother passed away, I you know, interview her and ask her what she remembered. And I did the same with my sisters. Uh and so my memory is what I remember, but also what they told me, the videos I watched them telling the story. So, um it it was semi the date. We know the exact date. It was May 1st, 1979. And we know that because my sister told me it was, you know, Labor Day, you know, that was the the May day, you know, in in in that part of the world. And that night, the way we got out was my father was a fisherman, so we have fishing boats. And our boats were like built by our family. It wasn't like most of the people who left, they purchased tickets on boats. We were lucky that you know my my family was uh you know owned boats. So my father made a boat you know originally for fishing but he customized it to go on the trip. You know we loaded up the boat with water and food and putting two motors in the boat as opposed to one just to prepare for the route. But it was scary you know it was illegal to leave Vietnam as you know at that time. And um if you were caught leaving, you will be, you know, incarcerated. You know, uh think back of you know, the East Germans trying to get out of Germany, you know, there was no wall, but there was the ocean. So, you know, we had to get out of the water and uh we left by by boat at night. Uh and uh of course, but that was just the beginning, right? The hard part was uh heading south. We were trying to get to Thailand, but we couldn't get there. Um we were attacked by pirates three times. So that that night we left and then by the afternoon or the next day we were chased down by a pirate ship you know and they would come and board the boats and they would uh rob and steal everything we got. You know my mother hid jewelries and you know diamond pieces whatever we can bring with us cuz you know there was no way to move money out of the country. you just convert whatever money you have into jewelry. Well, the pirates knew that and that's why they were targeting all these Vietnamese boat people because of that. They rob us with a lot of stuff we had. Um, but that was just the first one. Unfortunately, uh by the next by that evening, there was another one that chased us down, robbed us again. And then the next day, another one came and by the third boat, it was very very bad because um you know, we didn't have much to steal to rob. So, they were angry, you know, because we were like trying to outrun them. And I remember because you know, my father was the the captain. So I was in the that room, you know, with him. I can see, you know, they were chasing us down. They chased us down for like a couple hours. When they caught up with us, especially the third boat, they were angry for like well, we made them chase for a long time. When they got to us, there was not much left. So they they uh I remember remember that one the most because as they were leaving, they rammed their boat into our boat to sink our boat. they were just angry because you know we made him do all that and our boat was just almost like you know uh tip over and I I remember that experience and and um yeah so it was not to the next morning we actually got to Malaysia because we couldn't make it to Thailand we and Malaysia that's where we can go uh and uh but Malaysia wasn't the end of the story that was actually it got worse than Malaysia um so when I go to Malaysia Yeah, the Malaysian authority did not let us on land. They kept us uh on a boat and it got worse in the sense that, you know, then the Malaysian authorities robbed us. You know, I remember how uh there was one night where um not just our boats, but there other Vietnamese boats as well who were near us. They was they would ask the men in our boat and men in the other boat to climb up their these are navy ships. So I remember these these rope ladders they have to climb on this really really tall. I mean we have these small little fishing boat and they would climb up there and they were beaten and they were robbed again by the Malaysian authorities now and these are like official wearing you know uniforms. And I remember one night uh one of the men came down from the other boat. They just dripping in blood right because um the Malaysian authority didn't didn't I guess get what he wanted. I don't know. Um my father was not beaten up. He was he didn't speak any English there. They kind of left him alone. But uh it was worse in the sense that you know being robbed by pirates is one thing but this is like official government entity wearing uniform during this and and we were kept there in Malaysia for like 3 days and then what happened was that so this is May in in 70 in 79. We didn't know at that time what what the Malaysian authority were doing that time was there was so many Vietnamese boat coming to onto Malaysia they were pushing the boats out to sea right first rob them then push them out to see and we were just caught up in that um but they be they be to be fair you know the Malaysians you know some of them would robbed us but being human beings some of us some of them also fed us you know some of the soldiers they they they felt bad they would like sneak and give us food and drinks too. So, so some would beat us and some would give us food and water. So, you know, humans are like that, right? Um, when you go on these experiences, what you see is, you know, us humans, Carl, you know, we are like the worst animals, we are the best animal, right? And you see it all, right? And what happened was that after being kept in Malaysia for like two to three days, um, they would they tow us out. They're using Navy uh Navy ships and so uh that was bad because I remember where so they tow our boat and we were on the left side. Now behind us there was another boat a Vietnamese boat with like just men was like a tiny boat with like nine men on them like a tiny like a canoe almost I wouldn't call a boat. To our right, there was another boat, much larger boat. And that boat has maybe 40 to 50 people. And of course, the Malaysian Navy, they knew this is illegal. So, they were going like full speed ahead, right? And we were like tiny wooden fishing boat. And we were like swaying back and forth, bobbling behind their propeller. And so, I remember I was my my father. He said he's very worried because we're not going to he couldn't hold the boat together. He was afraid it was going to sink. And then that night, yeah, the boat to the right, it sank and they wouldn't stop, you know, they kept going. I remember we were yelling and screaming. So, so finally my my father cut the toll line, right? And then we cut the tow line of the smaller boat behind us and that was useful. The smaller boat was more maneuverable boat. So they went back and they rescued people and um it was all dark. I don't remember seeing too much. I I I I can hear it though to this day the sound you know but um those men the small boat behind us well canoe they went back and they save about 20 people or so so they put all those 20 people in our boat so our boat has 22 people now it's like 40 people we were like overloaded now so then yeah so um the Malaysian Navy ship finally stopped they went back and they tow us again and they kept going Right. It went going and by the next day we got to we saw on the horizon this little speck of land. You know when you're in the ocean you see nothing but like sky and water. It's a terrible feeling, right? So in big ways one minute you see nothing sky, next minute is nothing but water, right? So when you see land mass you're like oh my gosh, you know like we're safe. It's that that kind of feeling. And that was Indonesia. So um Indonesia is made of thousands of islands. So these are Indonesian islands but they were pretty close to Malaysia and so that's where the Malaysian uh ships were dumping people like get out of Malaysia and go there to Indonesia. That's what they did and we were part of that. you know, I know um as part of your story, you eventually made it and you were living in a um kind of a refugee camp and if you could talk a little bit about that and again, if you have any pictures you'd like to show us, uh please do so whenever you feel comfortable. >> Sure. So um yeah, so we got onto Malay, Indonesia and um we bounced around island to island, you know, for a while um because Indonesia wasn't prepared for any kind of influx of, you know, refugees and and they don't have the infrastructure for it. So we bounced around for a while. But um yeah, I can show you some uh uh I guess two photos. Let me share this first one. This photo of is the boat. Now, this is not the same boat that we left Vietnam with, but our boat was similar to this one. It's a similar fishing boat. And that figure in the middle, that's my father. Okay. So, this is again not, you know, during the trip. This is beforehand. And we have several fishing boats. Uh this is one of them. And so, uh was about um about 40 ft long, maybe 8 ft wide. So, uh that's that's the side. And so, you can imagine 22 people was fine. But with 40 something people, it was very dangerous. It's hard hard to keep afloat, especially we've been tow so so fast. And so, uh, yeah, that's what our boat look like. >> It's amazing that your dad made the boat, too. I mean, you know, for most of us, that's an incredible feat. >> Yeah. He didn't do it himself. I mean, you know, we we were okay family. So, was him himself and other people, you know, and but he, you know, it was you do everything on your own those days, right? So, he didn't do it by himself. He had help of course we had this was a nice boat actually you know sea fairing uh was meant for fishing of course and so uh but yeah that's that's the boat and that's him back there and uh you know this photo is very precious because during the pirates attack we lost almost all our photographs you know when the pirates came they dumped everything into the ocean and you know they they were just trying to grab whatever can grab and very few photos survive and this one of the few photos that survived my sister was able to hide these somehow and and so I'm very grateful for her to have this photo. So we were in uh Indonesia for a total of about let's see we got there in in May of 79 and we were in Indonesia into December uh into actually January and so uh there was not much food at first you know we was you know just on empty sand and my father you know hiked up the mountain to chop down woods and he built his bed so we can sleep so he wouldn't be sleeping on the sand. Uh but we you know got in contact with the the authorities there. Eventually we were led to uh other islands and the UN finally arrived and I remember they were UN officials who came and we applied for uh you know uh immigration to the US. And let me next show you the photographs. So these are refugee photographs. So um on the bottom right that's me. Okay. So on the top left that's my father. Top middle is my mother. To the top right that's my oldest sister. Next thing is my sister. Now my brother you notice that his photo is different. So I neglected to tell that when we left in se in May 79 my brother has already left on his own. Remember he was being drafted the army. So we paid him to leave before us. So he left like in February or March before we did on his own because you know we didn't want him to go to Cambodia to to fight the Kir Rouge. So that's why in the photograph you not it's different. Uh so he he end up in a camp in Malaysia. They did let him on. Uh and so that's why he he looks that photograph looks different there from the rest of us. >> Tell us now about you know the refugee camp by the UN and then how did you get to the United States? So in a refugee camp, you know, at first we were just bouncing from island to island. You know, again, you know how I was saying how humans are terrible. The humans are wonderful, too. You know, we were fed by the local Indonesian people. My sister told me a story where I was so hungry. One point I was crying and then some little girl saw that and she ran home and, you know, talked to mom and dad and they brought food to us to eat because we didn't have any place to sleep. There was no food to eat. So we were we found many generous people like that. Uh at first you know we didn't have much to eat. So when the UN came I remember they would give us like you know like one bowl of rice and couple cans of sardines and that was like for the family of five and so there was not much to eat for a while and so people fish if they can. Uh the good news is water was not a problem you know because Indonesian islands a lot of streams so water is not a problem but for a long long time there wasn't much food to eat you know uh so I kind of felt bad because I I remember there was still so little rice so we make porridge out of it right and so I remember my father I didn't know at that time he probably didn't eat very much he let me eat first you know and thinking back now you know I I didn't think much of him but he would do and he would I know he was hungry. I was hungry. It got better at the end. But um you know initially it was hard. So when the UN came, we applied for you know to go to the US. Most people apply to US. Some people go to you know France, Canada, Australia. US is the most popular country at the time. Uh eventually we were approved. Um my brother got to got to US first. Remember he left separately. So my brother got to Chicago. And so once we made contact with that um we said you know we want to go to Chicago and so they they prioritize family reunification. So there's a family member in the US already in Chicago that was it we would go to Chicago and then uh we waited around we moved around so many islands I don't remember how many island like four or five different islands. So eventually we uh were taken to Singapore for the final health screening. And so um from Singapore it flew straight to uh the US and we landed in uh in San Francisco and it was February 1st, 1980. And I remember that date because what happened when we got to San Francisco apparently despite all the paper they lost the paperwork they lost track of like lots of paperwork. And so the reason I know that um I guess I can say publicly um my they they made my my birthday my like my legal birth date is like the date I arrive in the US cuz they they just make up that well oh you look about that age okay that's your birth date and for my youngest sister they flip the numbers well okay if if Hugh is Janu February 1st my sister is January 2nd because of that so that's how I remember anyway my final destination was um uh Chicago. So from there we flew to Chicago and uh of course being February in Chicago it was cold and we weren't prepared and I remember we got to the airport and my brother was there and I guess no one planned or something we were like we we didn't have like winter clothing you know and I remember uh you know leaving the airport and my brother told me okay when that door opened like make a really fast run to that taxi okay and so we I remember I ran there like freezing cold and then we you know and a taxi ride to the uh to the apartment. My first memory was this, you know, this in February, you know, in cold weather, all the trees are shredded and you know, they they don't have leaves. My first impression in America, wow, how come in America all the trees like no leaves, they're dead. All these dead trees in America, but they don't fall over like to me, right? No leaves mean you a dead tree. I never seen trees without leaves before. That was my first impression of America. Dead trees. How long did you stay in Chicago with that in that windy city as Carl Sanberg would say? And uh you know how long were you in Chicago? >> We were in Chicago for two years. You know we were uh living in Chicago from 1980 into 1982 and uh we left to uh New York City because you know that was during a bad recession in the US at the time. There was just no jobs you know uh it it was difficult. My brother had a job in a factory but uh you know but it was not you know good paying job and it was just really cold. It was difficult. So my sister got married and then uh uh his family lived in New York said come to New York you know it's not as cold and there are jobs to be uh had in New York and so we moved to New York and uh the jobs that we did was my mother worked in you know near the sweat shops in New York. it was still there in the 80s, you know, going to the garment uh factory in in Queens and doing the clothing, you know. Uh she did that and my father found a job at working in a laundromat in in New York. Uh and so uh we we we did that and uh uh yeah, so we were in New York and I I went through med school and high school in New York and and and college. I went to college New York as well. >> Let's stop there for a second because you know New York public schools are considered some of the best. And can you describe the your education because you know this is one of the wonderful things about public education and so uh tell us about your education in New York. >> When I think back now you know I've gone on to get you know my my you know bachelor degree my bachelor degree but I would say um it was my high school my public high school in New York that really transformed me. Uh, so New York City has public schools which are both like you go to a school in your neighborhood but also schools that are I guess they're called magnet schools where the schools are spread around the the city and anybody can go there. You don't have to live in that area. So I went to one of these uh I guess magnet schools and um and and I didn't know at the time I went there because the first high school I went to was in kind of a scary neighborhood. I want to get out of it. And I knew a friend who knew a friend and he said this school is safer that go there. So I did it. It turned out it was the high school for the humanities. You know I I didn't know that. So the focus on humanities not not science. >> Was it Styverson Hugh? >> It's called Townsen Harris High School in Queens. uh not not not one of the better known one but um it was a school that started out in the really one of the earliest public school system in the country in the in the mid 1800s actually and it shut down during World War II but it came back in the mid 80s and I was actually the second graduating class and it was steep in the humanities because there was you know other school for the sciences already you know you know there's Bron Science and uh Brooklyn Tech so they want to have a school for humanities and you I didn't know the time. I remember I I I went there as a as a a sophomore and so I remember that first year the theme was uh uh the paradox of mankind, you know, like heavy in humanity. Second year was the transcendentalism, you know, things like that. And my my best teacher was uh I I always remember his name was Dr. Leonard Gap Gapleberg and he was my social study teacher and he was my philosophy teacher and I think he's probably the reason why I chose to major in history in college. I just was so loving history and trying to understand people. Uh and so yeah uh that was really transformative more than anything else. It was my public high school in New York. I'm listening to you and I'm thinking about, you know, relatives and friends and not not in my generation but two generations ago and especially after the Holocaust and, you know, you know, having boats turned away, not pirates, but having boats turned away and uh this experience of the New York public schools where many people would end up going to City College and making their way and being very successful um in the Jewish community, but you know, several generations before your generation Um, so it's it's a real it's a parallel universe, but this this public education story is, you know, one of the best and so, you know, I thank you for sharing that. And then, you know, I know this about you and you're never going to say this unless I bring it up. But then you went to an Ivy League school because you you studied hard. Can you tell us about that? So after high school, I went to uh Cornell for for college and uh you know uh it was a great experience and you know now to be an Asian male to major in history is going against the stereotype as you know when the Asian male idea you assume you go to engineering or science or a doctor and and surely most of my Asian friends would I was like the only Asian male who major history and I I really like that a lot that my high school really changed me. I want to learn and I think going back to my immigrant immigration story. I think I mentioned history because I want to understand like why did this happen, right? I mean I my experience is not unique as you know. You know, this episode you talk about the immigrant story. To me, the immigration story is like the oldest story in in human history, right? Because think about it, right? All of us human migrated from somewhere. Well, unless you're still in Africa, right? We no matter who you are, we all start out in Africa at some point. And the history, the history of that is immense, right? All the suffering, the push, the pull. Um, I think history helped me understand that. It helped me understand who I was, why things are. And I can tell you why uh it's important is because so when I was at Cornell, uh I did work study and I was lucky enough that my work study job was off campus and so um Cornell is a small I mean Cornell is a big school in a small city, but there's a there's a big program to help refugees in Ethan. This is upstate New York, Ethan, New York. And they started out having refugees guess, you know, from South Asia, Asia. But guess what? This was the early 1990s. And there was a wave of refugees, refugees coming from the former Yugoslavia in the early 1990s. Yugoslavia was breaking up, right? A horrible civil war between, you know, the Croats and Croatian and the Serbians and I mean, it was a horrible war. And so there was a new wave of refugee coming to America, right? no more from Southeast Asia, but coming from Europe. And so I was part of the program to help those Bosian refugees in New York. And I love that job because I didn't speak the language, but when those kids were telling me like they were getting bombed and getting killed and trying to escape getting out of Yugoslavia, I can relate to them, right? And so um the story I told you in the beginning of the episode is very particular like my experience but all us humans have experienced migration and it's never you know easy uh and so uh anyway it's all tie tied together for me you know uh understanding people so that that was a great experience. I'm very happy that I was able to help those refugees and get to talk about it today. I remember my grandmother and her two sisters talking about, you know, because they were they were the children of immigrants and they were my my my grandmother kind of put on air. She, you know, was talking about how she always lived in Manhattan. And, you know, her her sister Ruthie uh said to her uh said, you know, um oh uh and Ruthie was a a teacher at Stson. That's why an English teacher at Stson. So that's why I wanted to bring that up. But um she said, you know, Ethel, my grandmother's name, uh you know, we we came from Brooklyn and Harlem originally, you know, cuz it was like she was kind of putting out of errors. But going going back to your story. So Hugh, tell us how you uh uh came to Hawaii and then um also you know after Cornell and how you you know how you got a job and you know I know you worked at Shamanad but I want to uh not spend too much time on Shamanad but I want to ask about a particular part of something that you did which is really interesting. >> Now after Cornell um I was uh uh I received a fullbrite scholarship and uh it was for one year in Singapore. So the arc was you know in 1980 I was in Singapore as a uh you know a Vietnamese refugee. So by 95 I went back to Singapore as an American fullbrite scholar right. Um so after that I came to Hawaii because I knew a professor at uh Manoa. So I want to get my master's degree here. So I came to Hawaii because I liked it. Um uh and so that's how I I end up in Hawaii because of master's uh graduate studies and came here and you know my thinking was of course you know I'll stay for a couple years and go back to New York but then I met my wife here and I stay so that's why I'm here. >> You know I met your you met your wife you know at the at the reading at the University of Hawaii you know a while back but um and of course I see her when you when your family walks in in Monoa. Um but it's interesting that you know you now live with your um your wife uh and your um in-laws and of course your um father-in-law fought um in Vietnam and you know you know and and you know he too but he came as an immigrant and he came as an older man. So you know I was thinking you if I moved to a country where I didn't speak the language it would be harder to absorb the language the way you do. I mean, you speak the king's English, Hugh, so you know, I mean, like my wife, but you're not a Roosevelt graduate, so there we go. But anyway, um, but Hugh, tell us about um, you know, I know briefly about Shaman, but then you got in really, um, interested in a project where you helped develop the quarter, the new quarter that we have, and I think it's for Hawaii if I'm not mistaken, but I don't know. I could be maybe for, you know, Illinois or New York, but, you know, uh, tell us about those things. >> Sure. So actually it was exactly 20 years ago in 2006. Um the state of Hawaii was uh up for the the United States government US mint has a program to have the 50 state quarter. So you know on the on the quarter you have the eagle. So there was a program each state can design their own quarter. So the first state to do that was Delaware. you know, Delaware was the first state, you know, to ratify the constitution in 1887. So, so Delaware uh went first in 1999 and so the Hawaii quarter was going to be minted in 2008. So, two years beforehand, you know, the US Treasury Department reached out to the state of Hawaii and the other five state, you know, Alaska, the 49th state backward. And so the governor at the time, Governor Linda Lingo, you know, uh, uh, issue an executive order to, uh, establish a commission to design the quarter for the state of Hawaii. And at that time, um, I was with the Vietnamese American Chamber of Commerce. Um, uh, and so the the program was managed by the state of Hawaii Department of Business, Economic, uh, Development, and Tourism. So they reached out all the various you know chambers of commerces you know like regional ethnic and also other entities. So there was a total of 36 commission members. I was one of the 36 commission members to design the quarter to make the recommendation to the governor and uh a voting member too and it was interesting. I can tell you more about it. >> Do you uh by chance have a picture of any of that or >> Sure. >> Uh because that that's a really interesting thing that you did besides being an administrator at Shamanad. So Carl, so in 2006, you know, I was part of that commission and so what we did was we the commission uh publicized the that the state is looking for design for the quarter and um the commission took you know inputs from the public as well as our own you know uh thoughts and we come up with five designs. There's one that's cut off in the photo. Sorry. But you can see how um if you look the other one that did not get chosen on the left, that's the one with the surfer. Do you see that? >> Mhm. >> Then there's a hoola dancer there. And then there's another one with King Hame statue but with diamond head. Okay. And the one on the right, the big one. That was the one is finally chosen. So the commission, you know, looked at it and uh that's the quarter you see today, right? The one that you see on the right. Um I took this photo because I wanted to keep it as you know the history guy right I want to document it. I believe these are in the state archives or somewhere. Now one thing I want to note about this is that uh if you look at the quarter what is unique about the Hawaii quarter was this. So we narrow down to these three. These are the three finalist. You can see a better picture of the the other finalist. Um and then uh these are the notes that we took like the commission has to make a recommendation to the governor right and so we want to tell the governor why did the commission decide this is the one that we should pick for the state and these are the notes that we were like talking through each other and uh number four number five is interesting um three four and five you know opportunity to educate Hey, we want the quarter to educate the public and the world about Hawaii. You know, number four, diversity expressed in native language. This is fascinating and this might be a good uh trivia question like maybe a question for Jeopardy. Do you know that until this quarter came out in 2008? So the commission met in 2006 2007 you know the governor picked and it was the next year 2008 that was minted and then become you know circulating the Hawaiian language on this quarter is the first time in US history where a US currency note or a coin had a language other than English or Latin. Prior to this there is none. So we knew that right the commission knew that we want to be different and we didn't want to say aloha we want to say the full state model right the full Hawaiian language and that distinction holds you know where first time ever in the US currency that's not English or Latin now in the early 1900s the US mint did have currency and coin in Spanish for the Philippine territories but those were like used only in the Philippines territory it wasn't used like the whole country. Uh so this distinction is unique to Hawaii, right? And it was not my idea to put in the Hawaiian uh you know language there, but when I heard about it, I was I push it very hard and not just to make it tiny, some make it like make it prominent like stands out and that was something that I pushed hard and one of the thing I'm proud of is that maybe had a role in that make it so prominent and big in history. Now the following year in 2009 the quarter from uh uh from Puerto Rico and Guam and uh Samoa had other you know they had like Spanish and Chammoro and and Samoan but Hawaiian was the first language other than the English and Latin ever in American US currency to circulate and uh that's something that maybe not many people know >> and you know and it's obvious that there are three languages there. There's English, there's Hawaiian and there's Latin. kind of a perfect place to wrap up because you know here's this young immigrant boy who comes to America. He goes to wonderful schools in New York after horrendous experiences coming here and you know makes his way makes his way to the Ivy League you know uh gets a fullbrite goes to Singapore and then um after all this you know produces something that is good for his state and his country and you know you know this is the role that immigrants have played in the United States traditionally forever and you know it breaks my heart when I see these ICE agents um really mistreating um immigrants and killing them. I mean it's really you know a um it's a sacrilege and it's something that you know I never would imagine in my lifetime in the United States. Um so here's the question that we will end with and I promised you this you and I'm coming back to it. So is it still possible in the United States for an immigrant to come here and fulfill the American dream? Um or is it you know I want to give you some categories. It's possible but extraordinarily difficult. Um because you know you're you're um and this is not an easy thing to do. I'm not going to diminish the tenacity that you and your family had to have but I mean is it still possible? Is the American dream possible for the immigrant in America now? >> Believe so. Yes. There's always challenges Carl. you know uh the difficulties now that immigrants have to US is actually not new right think of the Irish who came to America in 1800 right you know the Irish family they came to us and they were like you know discriminated remember how stores signs in New York has the signed na no Irish need applied classified ads in New York Times clearly said nenina no Irish I mean they were discriminated you know because they were they were poor they were Catholic and the established Protestant didn't victim. It's nothing new, right? Uh historically, immigrants always have a hard time, but it's still a land of opportunities where, you know, if you work hard and be disciplined, you know, put in the work ethic, it's still a land of opportunity. But how else you explain why so many people are still trying to get in, right? And of course, our government now put all these effort to push people out, right? Like why are not people clamoring to go into say Russia? Why the US? because the opportunity is still there. It's never easy. Uh different time, different people. It's never easy to move from one place to another. Uh but the opportunities are there. I think there's always new challenges for sure. I think it's harder now in the sense that a lot of time I think human being we're not so evil in the sense of being like racist. It has more to do with the US overall. People don't have as much confidence in our society to absorb the newcomers. You see in Germany too, right? When Germany was doing well economically, they welcome the immigrant. Now Germany is not doing so economically push out the immigrant. So it's not an American thing. It's a it's a very human thing, right? But I believe yes uh it's still a place with great opportunities and uh I I feel lucky that we're here. Uh and so yeah, humans are wonderful people too. They're not we're not all bad car. We are great great people too everywhere. I will leave you with the last word and I'm going to ask you a question to do it. So if you had to give advice to um someone who is um coming from you know an immigrant family today of of any immigrant because you you mentioned that you know in the Clint in the Clinton administration there were all these people coming from the fragmented Yugoslavia you know for most of the reasons because the Serbs were being pretty cruel um and uh you know and committing mass murder. So good that the Crowates came. Um so what would your advice be? What would your advice be to you know if you saw um a uh young person coming and by the way I I have to mention that the fact that you sent your daughter to Punoho so that the cycle is being fulfilled and more so you know already already gainfully employed and she went to your alma mater too from what I understand. Is that true? >> No no she didn't go to Yeah. >> Okay. uh >> but she was a college graduate and I just wanted to make sure that you know the the the cycle is still turning and you're you're being very successful and your family's very successful. So, but what advice would you give to a to a young uh a young boy 10 years old who's first coming to the United States? What advice would you give him? >> Education is the key, right? In in any society, whether you're immigrant or not, education is a great equalizer. Now, my mother and father emphasize education. make sure that you stay in school and learn and uh just learn as much as you can. Uh but you know with immigrants you don't have to tell them you don't have advice. They they're motivated right from from the Irish to the Italians and to the Bosnians to the refugees from every you know Africa they're just motivated already. They don't need advice. They just they just see the opportunity. They'll take it and all people do that. Hugh, this has been a delight and um it's good to hear what you went through because, you know, people need to know what it means to um cross the border and come to the United States, whether that's from the Pacific Ocean or it's from, you know, uh South America um or it's from Europe or um other parts of Asia. And um the real beauty uh of the story is highlighted by your leaving Singapore and then coming back to Singapore um in two different phases of your life. To me that's and of course I I have such a great admirer of of of Singapore as a nation. Um but it's really uh truly um unbelievable. So, I just want to wish our audience um a huh ho and um we're very grateful to have uh uh Hugh Deen Wyn uh be our guest today at Journeys to the Mind, which is part of the overall framework of that great organization, Think Tech Hawaii. Aloha everyone and thank you. >> Thank you.