Agrifood with Brian Kithinji | #Entrepreneurship

All right, good morning. Welcome back. # is still in the morning. Now we're going to switch up the conversation a little bit. We're going to talk about agriculture more so youth in uh youth and also giving insights about um what's really in agriculture cuz it's one of the most underrated topics and also one of the most underrated uh career path one can choose cuz when it comes to agriculture most of the I think most of the youth now when they hear about agriculture what really comes to their mind is the art part of it not really the business part of it and how they can make money through agriculture and also talking about agriculture and how now things have changed from the what you are used back in the day from from now then new digital era talking about AI and how it is can be implemented on agriculture and I'm going to talk with Brian Geni who is actually a good he has a research so I want to get to know more about his research on agriculture and also give insights about this topic that you're going to discuss about so my good name is James John # still in the morning can find me on social media James so make sure you stay tuned let me welcome back in the building kibu and good morning >> thank you so much. Glad to be here. >> Mhm. You've told me your ear before I think a year ago. So maybe people have forgotten about maybe they saw you just one day and they say what can you say who is what does Brian do? >> Yeah is a simple person. I am the executive director of policy action initiative. At policy action initiative, we do a lot of research and policy development looking at the structural barriers facing youth in agri food systems but also advising organizations, governments on what actions can be taken especially to solve these gaps and to create opportunities for young people in agri food systems. >> Yes. Now talking about agri food system maybe what um maybe policy initiative that you have mentioned how does it end up even working on youth and also food system across um maybe African studies and also African culture in a general >> you know it's a big challenge because like we said before >> agriculture has always been seen on the lens that you have to go to the field do the hard labor or work in the informal sector whereby you are either collecting the produce from the farmers and taking to the markets. However, we have to change this approach because we realize that uh the production side and the supply chain side doesn't have a lot of money and it's not enticing for young persons. There was this discussion that I was hearing in the earlier segment whereby a colleague was asking why don't we have ad advertisements with young people like the way they have for the colorful way >> and also the billboards. >> Exactly. They should be doing that because it sends a message that agriculture is a good place for young people to get jobs. But now because we focused only on on speaking about the actual farming and not speaking about agriculture as a whole because agriculture has so many stages. So for example even when you supply the produce from the farm you need to process it. Even with the processing you need to market the produce. You need to get customers so they sales. You need to get communication people to be able to to disseminate information about what is being produced. You need to have the nutrition side as well because you don't just eat anything that is out there. You have to know the right thing to eat. So the focus has largely been on the farming side and I think that's where we are missing the point because when you look at where jobs and this is what we've done in our studies before where you look where jobs can actually be created is either in the processing side or in the nutrition side. That's where most of the jobs can be created because when it comes to the processing side you can bring in technologies. We will need digital technologies. We will need all the applications. We'll need to create these systems that can be able to process this food faster. We will boost the manufacturing side because we are going to create machines that are working well. For the nutrition side, we are going to create more jobs because nutrition we know even when you go to public hospitals, we don't get to see nutrition offices working there. So when we understand that agriculture is a whole system and it's not just limited to farming then we are able to look at what are these gaps that exist and what opportunities can be created for young people. >> I'm getting uh just report here. you have authored um a new report designing meaningful youth engagement in food system research and also which is a part of a bigger program called youth in just food system transition. So what what really does it entail about this just before we get into the new technology and also why is agriculture seen as the last resort cuz um I think the mentality is when things don't work out in in in the urban setting let's go back we shall go to end so that's the the >> it's like the way people in the past used to say that every journalist is somebody who couldn't be a lawyer you remember how people had this negative stereotype which is not true as you can tell clearly from your side and everyone here >> so what the youth in food systems transition program that is being run by the include platform. What it entails is that it looks at what are these gaps that young people face, what are the opportunities for job creation and what can governments do in private sector to create these opportunities and the space for young people to be able to accomplish and to grow within the food systems. So the program we conducted studies in Benin, Ghana, Rwanda, Somalia and South Africa. Of course, Kenya was not one of the target countries, but of course, Kenya was well represented because of I was supporting the program as a research consultant, but as well as many research have been done in Kenya before. So, all of this data is to piggyback on what has been done across different countries, what has worked well. And so, with this program, some of the findings that we found out is that access to land is the biggest biggest problem facing young people today. When you go to countries like for example in Somalia and you can see a very expensive territory and you see that only 10% of young people own land and then you look at access to capital as well that there are young people who want to do businesses who want to start their agri businesses but even getting a loan from a bank it becomes a very big challenge the bureaucracy involved so also the access to markets the licenses like for example in Benin there was a very big problem with access to licenses for a young person so yes you and have your produce in the farm but to be able to sell it of course you need those certifications. So that was also a big challenge and then from the youth outside of the studies for that were conducted under the program we also developed a guide on designing meaningful youth engagement in food systems research. So the guide introduces a framework because we analyzed how have how have youth been engaged before in research in policym when it comes to agri food systems and we realize there's a gap because young people are invited for the workshops for the conferences they take pictures but then they're not meaningfully involved when it comes to what the policy entails so like in Kenya we have the national agricology strategy for food systems transformation but guess what the policy does not even talk about young people and what the challenges they face and this is a policy that should guide agricology for the next 10 years. So when you look at policym we decided now with this guide is to show policy makers and even develop partners that even when you support governments in Africa in this case or want to launch programs this is how you meaningfully engage youth and that is why we introduce the four eyes framework >> which is based on intentional that youth engagement has to be intentional that you have to do it with a clear focus in mind not just inviting young people to be part of the process as a checklist it has to be impactful as well the position where you engage young people. So don't engage them at the start, engage them at the end when you are developing the policy or when you are implementing. Meaning that you have to have more recruitment of more young people into these policym positions intersectional as well that you have to recognize that the rural youth and urban youth have differences and it also has to be inclusive that you also have to look at the needs of women, persons with disabilities because they face more structural barriers than any other young person. So that's what the program entails and what was delivered with that. >> Mhm. Now talking about our youth being included in those type of policies. What is the main reason that you can say that um maybe your youth are maybe failing that they are left up in such such a policies making? >> I think the intentionality is not there because when you look at it you know there's this narrative and it's very sad and it's very bad that young people are very lazy >> or young people do not want like they just want to be goons or they just want free things. like they just they just seated somewhere on the streets waiting to be given money and then they go back home have a drink or smoke something and then sleep and then wait for the next day. But however when you look at it when you go today even today if you walk today Nairobi you find who are the people who are doing this work in the informal sector they're majorly young people. So the challenge that has been there is that our governments our policy makers and this is not even just a government problem it's also a cso problem a private sector problem academia problem that they've not gone out there and intentionally brought young people. When you look at universities today, who are the majority of the professors and the researchers working there? They're older people. Where are the young people there? So, how do you have a professor at 60 years doing a research on youth and there are young people who are studied and have masters and they don't have the opportunities? You look at our governments and the representation and this is a civil service itself. Even the PSC acknowledges that 60% of the staff that they have are older people. So if there hasn't been that intentionality to bring young people, there's a narrative that just young people are lazy or just bring them there when you want to show that the program has results. So when you're launching the report, we fill the room with young people, we take pictures, put them on Facebook, on Twitter with a hashtag and that's very sad >> just for the for the attraction all the views. But talking about you know when when you hear about youth now we about young people in generally I think the mentality that comes to the mind of most of the older people is this is the new generation the gen Z generation they have nothing to offer that rather than chaos just to bring chaos in the police make but not really that's not really what really happened but now getting back to the topic you mentioned something about the barriers more so access to land you mentioned something about land land ownership being one of the biggest barriers when you hear about land ownership and also access to land. Um I say how much of a big factor is it really? >> Oh very big factor very big factor because you need land is a major factor for production. Yes I know there are new innovative ways for farming that have come up with vertical gardening for example whereby you can do it in minimal space. But if you want to do large scale farming you need to have land. If you want to do large scale dairy for example you need to have land. If you want to do large scale crop farming you need to have land. you'll have to have land to build the processing facility big over 80% of our country is arid and semi-arried so and we are all congested within below the equator line so for example you go to counties like even in kil alone the m kenya region where you find that most people are living in parcels of let's say quarter acre half an acre maximum so how do you do farming on a large scale so so that's a very big challenge and this is where I think this could be something that policy makers could do in the future if they had the intentionality of engaging young people whereby these large tracks of land that we have in the northern part of the country which are arid remember they have already the water down there the aquifers are there like I remember there was a study back then that was saying Tana has the water that is beneath Turkana can supply the entire country for around 20 years maximum so there's a lot of untapped water aquifers so if we could be able to tap this water bring it to ground and then allocate parcels of land with zero interest loans to young people who want to do farming on large scale. Provide them with subsidies like the way we are doing with fertilizers. Of course, that's a good initiative the Ministry of Agriculture has done. But then also subsidize combined harvesters, structures, seeds as well. Then we incentivize because we have so many young people who are studying agriculture and even those who didn't study agriculture but are interested in doing this. So there's things we could do because we have the land but we are not utilizing the land and the land that is arable that is it's so fragmented and very expensive. If I was to buy land in Kimu we know the rate is very expensive. >> Yeah know it's very expensive to be to get a 50 by 100. So talking about land you know it's a topic that has been most when you about land is most when it comes to money is getting it from your family that's the type of but now we're talking about how to utilize a land maybe you have a a small piece of land or maybe just let's say a 50 by 100 that's the smallest piece of land one can get or can you say the best way maybe for an agriculture a p a person with wants to to start a agriculture business you have seen um this can just give an example about wiki business where they take a go they just make about there's yeah there's a new technology on how to go about it but there's that type of old technology where they take agric they take the the goner they make the also on the side then they plant the the seeds then it actually sprouts and it's a way to utilize the land but now talking about land is a big factor what has been maybe the limiting factor mostly for the youth even to access this type of is it the capital to the capital yeah the capital is because you see even when you do vertical gardening the way with the ga or with the tires or with the bottles the large water bottles for the water dispensers and you cut and you put the soil. >> Mhm. >> It is small scale still because even Yes. It reduces the harvesting cycle cuz you can harvest after every 2 weeks but then it is still small scale because how many how much scumiki can you grow within one bottle or within one tire. So it is only enough for household consumption or probably a little bit just to sell but not much. So the the major challenge there has to be the the financing because today if you wanted for example to to get a loan to start your farming venture you know a bank is not going to just give you money. Of course they're going to demand for the guarantees and you don't have a special facility just for farmers. Like for example, when you look at the big banks, the equity, the KCB, the ABSA, they don't just have a special facility for farmers unless you join a cooperative like for example Kenya National Farmers Federation for you to be able to access it. But then how many people know this information as well? But even if you join the cooperative as well, there's also the challenge of you know, you know, the structures the way they are even getting access to them within the counties because the farming doesn't typically won't be happening in Nairobi. in your rural area. So that's a big challenge. Capital is a very big challenge and I think this is something that we need to have a discussion that we are telling young people to agriculture but are we willing to support them the way we support other sectors? >> That that conversation we need to have support. >> Yeah. Because you can't do it without the the money. You need the money to start because you're starting from bero. You don't have land. You don't have the farm inputs. You don't have the seeds. You don't have the tractors. I mean how do you do it even the border border to transport it for example your own motor bike you don't have access to it you have to buy it or by loan so we need to have that discussion very much about how do we do it for young people >> exactly that's a conversation I think things that really need to be talked about now um I'm looking here I'm looking you said you did the research on Benin so there's a striking finding actually about credit with the youth with access to credit at lower rates of green job employment than those without why why would Why would it be like that? Yeah, because it was a little bit confusing especially when understanding but then you know access to credit changes because when you have credit you are forced to pay it because the bank needs the money back and if you don't pay the money back well you lose one of your assets because the way the system in Benin works for you to access loans and it's typically I think in most countries in Africa and the world is that you need to give you need to have a guaranter or you need to have some an investment for example that is pegged to the loan because you don't have a pay slip. So you you'll find that the young person who's taken the credit goes and puts their title deed for them to get the money back. So it makes them to want to more do more of that business for them to get their money rather than go and join the green employment market because people consider the employment as not giving the returns instantly. Yes, it pays in the long run but you don't get all your money instantly. So it forces them to do business and this is actually a major impediment that we also have to look at that even when we want to give capital to young people to be able to do farming if it goes to we giving them loans then we are blocking them for future meaning that we are making sure that they will never get employment in future. They may never be able to access other government services. Let's say even the affordable housing that has come up by the government. They won't be able to access it or many more services because they have a loan. So we have to find a way that even this financing that when it is availed that can it be given in terms of technical support infrastructure support if you can't give the money straight away I liked the way not is doing a little bit in that it is not a a loan that is pegged to you for a period of time however that should be the model across so if I want to like do farming in Aldor I can go get 1.5 million loan >> but the loan is zero interest for example or I can get a facility worth 1.5 million whereby I'm given 300,000 in cash and then the rest is given in farm inputs. That's better because that now guarantees those young people to join employment and also create employment rather than focusing on only paying the loan. >> Mhm. Don't you think like um it be limited mostly let's say cuz in Benin you you mentioned something about um mostly who the the youth that own the land mostly through inheritance or you mentioned 13% actually 13% to be precise the one that um they have the land so the the bank actually gives it to the ones that have the land ownership they have the the details they have the detail and all that don't you think now it's limiting to to a youth who doesn't have that type of um maybe doesn't have in the capability to give something on even to have the lands to show the case. Okay, I can get this loan if I'm using using um as um my land as collateral. So do you think maybe there should be a different model where youth can be supported actually without being told to okay give give us your land as a collateral so that we can give you this amount of money? >> Absolutely. Absolutely. because that ties you down forever. And I think this is where we can be a little bit innovative in the sense that we know that we have a lot of state land and community land. Even in Kenya, most of the land is classified as either community land or state land is not even privately owned. And I think this is where that if we could have a concerted approach between community elders in the villages and the government as well whereby this community land is rented out to young people and then if you are able to access so for example it's divided into parcels of let's say 1 acre 1 acre 1 acre. So if you're a young person and you get access to that one acre you can go to the bank and the bank and give you a loan. So you are working on the land the land is not technically yours but because you're working on that land you get access to the loan. And then you can purchase the land or we can just do away with the purchasing and be like you will just get for example temporary ownership of 5 years lease 10ear lease so you don't have to pay every yearly rate. That could be an innovative way because also from the commercial side you have to think that there's no way they're going to give loans without guarantee. It will be very difficult because how do they if you for example if today you get 500,000 how will you get your money back? It will be very difficult. So they would have to peg it on something. So I think this is where like the government can step in as a guaranter and say because we giving these young people the land to the farm that that's the best way to do cuz the banks will want to have their money back and there's also the risk that somebody will be given the money and run away just maybe. Yeah, that's I think that's the best way to put it cuz now as much as you're saying we should support the youth, of course we cannot support them without um maybe being the safety of why am I even investing my money? If I give you my money, why will you use this type of capital that I'm providing you with? Now talk apart from now land as a barrier. Now let's get back to now agriculture and technology and look at some of ways that technology has made agriculture easier compared to let's say 20 years 30 years before now compared to now. How has technology revolized um agriculture into somewhere say made it easier and also made it more efficient compared to what we had back in the day. Oh very much. Ah, it's actually a game changer and it's actually the reason why we have >> our income generating opportunities like us because technology has opened so many opportunities in ways people probably may not understand so much especially the older generation cuz you know people think in the older generation that technology is just being on Facebook or Instagram or content creators working with phones but that's not the issue because you look like for example even with the farming itself nowadays there are so many apps that have been developed so many sensors that have been developed whereby you can install a sensor within your farm to detect the pest that are around to detect the temperatures and you get mobile alerts directly on your phones and we have seen even farmers who do dairy install these sensors within their own farms. So there's a bit of sensors there's a bit of applications that have been developed to give agricultural information. So these days if I want for example information on which is the best fertilizer for me to use back in my village in me it's very easy to get that information there apps that have all this data I can also I can also dial there's a certain uh number that has been given by the ministry of agriculture where you can dial and get all that information I can easily visit because of technology I can easily identify who is extension officer that has been allocated to me county for example and go to that person so there's that increase in access of information because of the application. Then now you come to the precision agriculture that is being undertaken because of digital tools. So there are some tools that have been developed that for example in the dairy industry whereby you can know what times to what exact times to milk your cows, what what type of feed and the quantity that you need to give them to maximize. So you can do all these calculations and say I'm targeting for example 42 L of milk. This is what I'm going to do. this is the time I'm going to milk and this exact time is the best. So technology has re revolutionized farming entirely completely on the processing side. We can have a full discussion about it and then of course now on the marketing the supply chain as well has been perfect. Like for example today you can just order food when you are at home. Again that's a benefit of technology. It has created many jobs for young people. So the benefits has been massive completely. It has changed the way agriculture is done. >> Mhm. Now I think you did a research on it in South Africa. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. Maybe talk talk to us through through it. >> So in South Africa the the study was looking at the adoption of technology especially by young small holder farmers and agreneurs and it looked at a how was how easy it is for them to uptake this technology and this is something that the researchers found that it was very easy because the technology already exists. South Africa is quite more advanced especially when you compare even with our own country it's quite more advanced than us when it comes to the development of the tech tech and and these tools are easily available and the comparison when you compare for example using the tools for farming var going the traditional approach you find that the investment margin this one has 60% more return on investment than on the other side so it's more profitable by far it reduces the cost of production and it guarantees more yield and productivity So there was that element. It also looked at the policy frameworks whether they support South Africa. The government has been so much into R&D and investment in R&D and allowing uh young innovators who've come up with systems to be able to register them with the South African board the equivalent for Kippi in our case the Kenya Kenya the Kippi board equivalent to Kipi like the way we have for registering intellectual property the equivalent in South Africa. It's very easy. The process takes almost one to two months for you to complete. You get you get the certification and it becomes yours forever. And then also a companies are willing to invest. The money is also there. So for example, if you have an innovation, it's very easy for a financial institution be it a bank or a private company to be able to invest because they see the returns. So already the external environment supports a technology uptake. So we also looked at are there any structural barriers for example with using technology and does the use of technology also reduce jobs in the informal sector because you know even with young people there are many youth who are not able to work in the formal sector because they don't have the educational qualifications like the rest of us. So we also looked at whether it may be reducing and then we found something that in as much as people say that AI is going to do away with jobs it actually creates more jobs in the informal sector because more production guarantees that there'll be more transporters of the produce. So that was something that we didn't we didn't get to grasp before but then after the study was conducted we were like okay that that was a game changer because we thought that we've always thought that when you incorporate technology in agriculture it reduces informal sector jobs so people in the rural areas will actually go without jobs but then turns out it's the inverse because now you are maximizing yield your productivity has gone higher you have so many of these tools which you need to install which you need to track and you need a human being to do that So when you put a sensor, it needs a human being. You can't just come with a robot and the robot just comes and it that that was an interesting finding that we found out that technology actually increases more jobs in the informal sector than when you don't use technology. >> Mhm. Now talking about technology and some of the ways that moreo the the AI technology I just want to get to know maybe how is it being implemented you know agriculture more so in our country apart from what you've done in South Africa you saw South Africa is more developed in um what we have in Kenya so what can you say what's some of the ways that uh this technology has been implemented in our very own country >> yeah AI is very important and it's actually changing to some extent though we haven't widespread adopted it but there are three ways I would mention that AI is actually revolutionizing agriculture in Kenya although now currently it is in a small scale but in future in the next one two years it's going to explode one is you remember like the sensors that we install in the farms to detect the pest conditions the temperature the pH of the soil as well the water the moisture content >> all this data that the sensors is collecting if you are to analyze it as a human being it's very intensive you may not be able to do Yeah, you have a lot of data set. But then AI does something very important for you. It's able to analyze this data >> in a second and it does that. And one other thing it does is that it can base this data on previous records. Remember that research has always been done for years and years and there's already data like for example if you were to go to Kenya like we are already have data that was collected from the time when the colonialist came and they tried and they pushed Africans from the white islands. So already this data is there. So what AI does is AI can analyze this data based on previous data and tell you these are the changes that are happening. This is what the best action for you to take because the environment is the same hasn't really much changed. So that's one thing that AI has done. is analyzing this data, giving you the correct alerts instantly. Also sending messages to farmers as well because you need a system that can send analyze after analysis of this information, send this information to farmers abruptly and for them to receive in ways they can understand it. AI can do it. AI can even translate the data in or in your local language because already it's inserted. So there's also that element. And then of course the last element is on the data side of course because on the research side for researchers who are in the agri food sector AI has been a game changer as well because it gives you access to a lot of information and and research that has been done that you didn't have. So if I was to go for example to ministry of agriculture or sia which is one of the big institutions for research in agri food systems in Kenya. >> Mhm. It's a lot of work to go through the records to access all the books. Even if I was to do it digitally, it's a lot of work. But AI can pinpoint and say for your case because you're studying Kifi. This is the data set from the ministry exact. This is the data from Kenya National Bureau of Statistic. This is the study that was done. So AI is a very important tool and this is I think we should start teaching AI in school. >> We should. >> You think that's something? >> Ah, we should we should you know people think AI is just chippy. >> Yeah. and and that's not true. >> Yeah, there's way different models. >> There's there's way different model. You can also create your own model. For example, if I can stay at home and say like because I'm doing a I'm doing transcription work, let me create my own AI model that will help me to transcribe audios very fast. So, it has an application everywhere and if you don't adapt to AI, you're going to be left out because the days of just saying you're going to do it manually. You're going to take 16 hours to do a job AI can do in 2 seconds. It's crazy. You can't you can't live like that. You need to adopt. >> Yeah. But don't you think maybe people are going to lose their jobs because of AI? Let's say analysis of data. That was a person's job. Maybe there was a person made to do that. But now I can do it for you in about even 30 seconds or even 2 seconds. Maybe even make a compressed um a table even um a wood PDF about about your farm and all that. Don't you think people there's that type of um maybe insecurity when it comes to to jobs? Yes, there is of course there is that challenge that it will do away with some jobs like the same way that when internet came about and there were some jobs that were that did but it is for people to adapt because access to information is I would I would always vouch for people having more information because information is power without information there's not much you can do like for example if many young people out there do not know that cooperatives are exist in Kenya and they are the best ways for you to get loans at at lower interest for example to be able to have access to extension services to have access to markets these are the best formulas if for example you don't have an AI tool if you were to go to AI tool and say like even charg the basic one and and tell it h I want to start a farming business can you advise me the best strategy to do it will tell you to follow that strategy but if you don't want to use AI and you don't have access to this information you're always going to remain in the dark so yes a few jobs will be lost and these are jobs majorly in the analysis like you've said accounting for example but when you look at the overall good and the potential and the opportunities it has created I think we need to have we we need to mandate AI has to be incorporated everywhere we have to >> yeah cuz um you mentioned something about as much as you're talking about jobs being lost others are creative cuz as much as we using the technology the new technology that means you yielding more you're getting more insight on your form that that means the produce will be even bigger That means you need even more manpower creating more jobs. So it's uh let's say >> imagine just you're sitting with your phone >> and you have you have a farm >> h you've taken a farm you've hired you've rented a farm let's say in bulmet you are planting potatoes there you have already somebody who is doing it for you and you are seated on your phone with your dashboard you are seeing how many water the conditions you are seeing if he's water the plants even it's comfortable it makes everyone a farmer without going to the field that is what we want because you want more food you don't want to import food as a country because you know Kenya currently we import more food than the one we produce. So we want more people to do farming. So how do you want more people to do farming? We increase uptake of AI. You can do farming from your phone wherever you are and somebody else manages and that person else who manages. You've created you've created jobs for the person developing the app checking it well. You've created jobs for the person developing the sensors. AI has to be mandated. If I was a minister AI we mandate AI and they introduced a policy for that as well. >> I think it's a good thing. I'm just thinking about um the assumption that people have about let's say it's the type of soil even the type of place that you are let's say a place like place like the likes of Trukana and all that the semiar place then this place is not good for farming but if the sensors can be installed and can even analyze the type of land the type of pH then can give you on details on which food will will fit your best what the type of soil even this type that can even produce more that means you'll be producing even bigger compared to what we have right now. So, it's a win-win for everybody as much as much as looking as the negative, but the positives are there way way bigger and even way way on the negative side. So, >> absolutely. And lower food prices for everyone. So, you spend less. >> Exactly. Cuz if you are importing foods to to our country, that means the food prices are way higher. But if you are making it on your on your own country that means you have the like giving an example of salt. Salt goes for about 10 shillings because you're making it on your country. Even tea tea bags I saw I saw somewhere um a clip somewhere online where this the normal cich tea in America it go for for about $14 in in Kenya is about 50 shillings. So that's the difference that we have when it comes to exporting and importing food. So that's a that's a key take on on um the the US which what AI can bring to a country. So I think people should consider that more compared to the fear of ah what about what if I do this what if I do this so that that's the >> people have to be told that like even for example university students like when you go to mess the messes that are in universities the prices of food has shot up it's it's not like when you are studying back then 5 years ago like people have to be told the reason why these prices have gone up is because you are importing food the cost of production is high the cost of importing is high so you go and develop a system so that you can produce the food cheaper and the prices go down and everybody wants to we want to spend less on food so that you can have more money for partying as well have more money for enjoying life and we because now for example in Kenya like for example an average household you find that 30% or 40% of your income is spent on food this is crazy like if we could reduce that cost then you have more money for even young couples to go for vacation you create more jobs in the tourism sector like there's so much things that can be done. We need to incorporate AI. We need to >> true true. Now talking about another thing apart from apart from technology. Now gender gender is one of the biggest talks when it come to agriculture like when about agriculture and ah this is a men's thing. This is a men's job. This women should not be involved in this type of manpower type of job. But uh now I think you have seen something different where even women's have even um women are making more compared to what men are making more when it comes to agriculture. What what can you say about our gender when it comes to agriculture? >> Of course there's a gendered barrier in terms of access to land because of inheritance although I know we've taken a a big step especially after the Supreme Court decision that women have equal chance of inheriting to men. But before that and even today there are some communities whereby the the way the structure is they tell you ah no a woman cannot even in my community itself it's really patriarchal. So there's a the issue that for women it's harder for them to access land. But when you remove the land factor, women actually make more money than men from agriculture because there's something about women that the way they are proactive and the way that when they go into something they put all their effort that for men becomes for men it's lesser but also women get lesser access to capital but they have more access to markets. So there's also that. So for a woman, it's easier for a woman to sell their produce because of the environment we've created of supporting women. There are so many opportunities that have come up, so many programs targeted only for women. And we are not saying it's a bad thing at this moment, but in future of course we may look to how do we now also create for men so that young men are not left behind. But for young women, the opportunities in agri food systems are immense. There's so many support programs that have been launched. Yes, the law hasn't reflected in terms of the land access but when you look at the opportunities that are there and that is why women have come up and women are now making more than men in agriculture. So we need to ask ourself >> this divide between women and men is it going to be too large in the future whereby we just have young men in the villages and especially in the rural areas who are just left behind who are poor poor compared to their women counterparts and women have this money have these investments have these markets have these cooperatives only for women that work for them and then the men are left out and then this now also creates a dilemma in terms of security and all that. So we have to be very careful even how we give support to women acknowledging that they were barriers before but we are working to reduce them. >> Now now talking about bar has been um let's say um apart from now the inheritance and all that just want to get to know um having interacted some of them how does it look for maybe a young woman or a young girl trying to get into a Greek business. or it's very it's it's mixed because there's a part of it's very difficult especially if the young woman is does not have access to information on what exist. So if you're a young woman who's out there you just have this idea I want to go and and farm for example maze on one acre or one and a half acres of land. It's very hard cuz you'll have to now try to find access to land. Of course your family is not going to give you most of the time the family is not going to give you the land because you're a woman. They'll say that you're going to get married. the capitalis like you don't own something that that that will guarantee you to pay back the loan. Of course is also the sexual exploitation. We cannot ignore it. We've seen what has been happening even with a fish for sex thing around Kisumu like Victoria whereby women who want to do fishing for example or work in the fishing sector they have to give sex. So there's also the sexual exploitation and there's also that how society looks at women as nah you can't do this just stay around and do something softer like work in a hotel for example or do something softer. So there's all these societal barriers that you are facing. However, why it is mixed is that on the other side, there are so many programs that have been launched by the World Bank, by FA just targeting young women in Kenya. Even I know we have programs done by the Ministry of Agriculture just targeting young women specifically. So, if you have access to this information or you can just join a women led or women own cooperative, then it is easier for you because you have this grants, this money that's targeted for young women, this support. So you can just join a womenowned caparative for example then after that access this grant of course there's also the Kenya women finance the something around that line that is like a large circle for women which gives women like so much benefits compared to we don't just have a circle for men for example that gives you loans at 0.5% interest. So there are opportunities however of course you have to acknowledge that the opportunities exist in a structure or a society that still undermines women compared to Yeah. Yeah. And so we still developing also recognizing about gender equality on all areas. Talking about agriculture, you know, the assumption is woman cannot a woman cannot do what a man can do when it comes to the to agriculture. But that's the way of the past. I think it's about time that we we adopt the new the new things that okay, you should include everybody when it comes to agriculture. That's the way you should go. But now I'm just looking at some you have talked about um the barriers and all that. We talked about um some of the the maybe the technology and all that but now finish up I just want to know what really actually works when it comes to the youth in agri food you know when you about youth in agriculture what does it really entail and also what does it actually work >> for me what actually works based on experience based on experience through our projects and our research is agreneurship >> and agreneurship in the sense of filling the gap between farm to fork >> whereby the produce is in the farm or the produce is in the processing facility and taking it to consumers because that's a there's a very big gap there. So for example when you look at the price that far dairy farmers sell for milk >> and the price that we buy for milk at the supermarket many people don't know like the price is almost two times higher than the price that we are sold. So if somebody could come up with and I know this is something that already is is run by the Kenya dairy board but if somebody could come up with businesses whereby they collect from farmers and take it to consumers especially in the urban areas this is a very big business and I always say that I think this is a gap whereby even when you talk about technology we haven't filled in I know there have been apps apps for delivering food from supermarkets or hotels to consumers but I think many people want fresh produce so if we could be able to develop structures or businesses whereby for young people whereby we hire for example three or four lorries we collect produce we go to Eldor to collect the maze to Nakuya to Naga and we sell it to consumers directly so they have the brown maze not the one that has been sifted to white which has less nutritional value and we sell it at a lower cost there's a market for fresh produce in towns however this market hasn't been filled yet because we know that many people don't have the time to go to like for example uh to go to Mutura to buy food for example or to go to toy market people don't have that time but if you could be able to deliver them deliver it to their homestead and it's fresh food there's that market other than that of course there's also the the the market around there's also the side for financing agri financing and we've seen that I know there are some businesses some startups that have come up whereby they have models for giving loans and giving capital or loaning tractors loan owning uh infrastructure to farmers and it's a good business because what they do is that they take venture capital money from outside then they come they give to farmers they earn an interest for example so that's also and we've seen so many credit facilities come up in Kenya and and the last of course the last business is is >> is on aquaculture fish farming is a very big thing Samaki very expensive in Kenya >> people don't know about it >> people don't know you you go to town even to buy tilapia how much is for the smaller >> for the kilo bro. So uh people don't actually know that's a market that is really untapped in Kenya when it comes to Kenya >> very untapped very untapped and the good thing is that if you could with just around 100 to 250,000 shillings you can be able to to set up your own aqua farm and to be able to do that of course there's a cold chain part and that but then that is where now you have to join a cooperative I always advise young people join a farmer's cooperative you can't do it alone in Kenya the structural barriers are too much alone you cannot but when you join a farmer's cooperative for that specific value chain you are able to do it and you see even with the older generation the way you had Kenya coffee planters union had their own have their own and then within this they go and negotiate so for example you cannot sell tea if you are not outside of the mobasa tea trade auction you can't go and sell your tea in eldor to foreign investors so they've created their own this is not cartel like but it's you have to join the system that is there >> go and negotiate the prices with hotels and set your prices so that you can be able to earn and even when you speak to commercial investors and banks you can be able to access the capital. So for me the last one has to be aqua aqua farming. We have to produce more fish in our country. Yeah. The market is there. People want to eat >> in Japan is one of the biggest market one of the biggest sellers of the of fish. people don't know about but that's just the mentality that people but you mentioned I think you mentioned something about milk and I just remember something that we talking with my co-host the other day I think last week actually where we had the shortage of milk suddenly anymore so how do you come to a place where there's the things happen like in that sort of manner >> I think for milk It's more of a supply chain issue. >> It's not a production issue because like I know from meu for example milk production has been similar. It hasn't reduced what has been there is a supply chain and because the supply chain we know it's controlled by >> it's a whole discussion we can have. So we can have it now but there's a whole discussion because the whole supply chain is controlled by KCC. So KCC determines who how the milk is sold and everything. You know all the milk companies they even bought by Brookside which is so all that milk is more of a supply chain issue and that is where young people that's where the business is because you don't have to do it on a large scale you can just start your business whereby you link >> just identify the gaps you link with daily farmers who are in you supply milk and then you market it as this is fresh milk we are supplying you we have already processed in our facility or even if it's not processed because you can always boil the milk if you're not process And even there's market for raw milk you know like the way Elling Holland has been drinking raw milk. So there is there's a large market for that but this is a gap that hasn't been explored possibly because of the capital needed to start such a business cuz you need to buy your own lorries for example or pickups for transportation and and fridges to store it. But other than that that's a good business gap that can be filled even on a small scale within the towns within your locality. That is a business to be filled. >> To be filled. Yeah. Now, um because of time, I think you're just stopping a conversation uh there. But now, to the youth that has been watching you, maybe someone has been wondering, yeah, I have this capital or I don't have uh any any any capital, but I just want to get into this agro business. I just want to start an agriculture project. Maybe what that advice that you can help them even that you can tell them so that they can be helped even to maybe start their business that they want to start even enlighting that bag. They just want to get that money. >> Absolutely. What I would say is that do not give up. >> Agriculture has a lot of potential. it it is a gold mine in quotes. What you only need is to identify your entry points. So if you are in the village or even if you are in town and you want to do a agri business, the first thing is identify a cooperative that is within your area. Identify an extension officer. Once you have identified a cooperative, join the cooperative. Go there and become a member. When you become a member, you have you will know what are some of the financing facilities that exist. Where can I get seeds, the right seeds at a cheaper price? how how much allocation of fertilizers do I use? Which type of fertilizer? All this information you will get it from the local cooperative or from an extension officer that you've identified. The second thing now is visit your local credit facility. See, can they give you for example a loan at at a lower interest facility at a lower interest cap? Try to speak with your parents. Can you give me a piece of land for me to do? If your parents don't have the land, of course, you can do vertical gardening. All this information is out there online. You can just Google easily how do I do vertical gardening with tires, with bottles, with socks. How do I do it? You can access this information and do it. And then of course, last but not least, knowledge is power. So try as much as possible to read more, to watch more. There are so many programs on TV, even KVC itself, which has programs itself on agriculture. Go watch it. See what other farmers are doing. Learn it and then grow. But do not give up. the opportunities are immense. It is a good venture. It's a good business and I would say it it's one of the few businesses in Kenya that has more potential than >> people actually. But um just to ask you for for my own benefit here person actually came and advised me to start a poultry farming then when you when you put that structure that um that um that the incubators Yeah. the incubators and all that put a fish down there so that when the waste is going down the fish can feed on it is a good idea. >> Yeah, it's a good idea was it is a good idea and one thing even sesa even outside of just putting the fish and the fish the fish pond beneath the incubators. One other thing is you can also use BSF lava to if you have any organic waste from your household come the food waste the avocado pills after eating you can use BSF lava to decompose that organic waste to create f which chicken can eat so instead of buying the chicken feeds then it becomes like a cycle and it's cheaper cuz chicken feeds have actually more expensive and that's why so again you see how the opportunities are there it's the like BSF farming provides that that course you can easily go and roll learn it for 3 days and go and do it wherever you are and this is something that you don't need like a big facility for you to do you can do it on small scale so the opportunities are there and just get the knowledge and you see the opportunities and also the gaps in the market exactly >> yeah amazing conversation thank you so much for coming I think I've gotten the insight and I believe the people who are watching us have gotten a little even uh They have learned a lot from you and also they have gotten to know some of the gaps and also how these gaps need to be filled and also have known about what can you do when you want to tap into agriculture and also want to to make money from agriculture. But thank you so much Brian maybe where can they get you on your social media or any any platforms that you are in? >> Yes, they can just go to our website www.policyactionactionaction.org. We are also on Twitter at policy guild on LinkedIn policy action initiative on Instagram policy action initiative on Facebook policy action initiative. >> Yeah. >> Okay. Thank you so much. Uh you can find me on social media at James John. I had I hope you had a lovely conversation about youth in agri food and also moreo youth in agriculture. If you miss the conversation make sure you go to your YouTube4. We are going to upload the the conversation there. So make sure you don't miss any bit of this amazing conversation. But anyway, we're going to take a short break, but we'll be back in just a few minutes. So, catch you on the other side.