A Masterclass in Improving Your HRV - Dr Jay Wiles

HRV is kind of like the new hot girl in school. Everyone's real interested in her, finding out where she's come from and what she can do and who she likes. Assume that I know nothing about HIV. What is it? What's it measure? >> The funniest thing about this, Chris, is that let's say circa 10, 15 years ago, like we would have never been having this discussion. And so for someone like me who is early to the game in the field of heart rate variability because I was exposed to it let's say 15 years ago when I first started doing mostly clinical work. Uh now everybody has access to this like it's in because of the advent of wearable technology. We all have accessibility to something that you used to have to go into like let's say a specialized academic clinic in order to receive. So I worked at the Department of Veteran Affairs as a resident and so within that context like I was exposed to it because we utilize three lead, six lead, 12 lead EKGs. And so it's these are 30,000 50,000 60,000 pieces or dollars worth of equipment. And so within that context, it's great to see now that we can all obtain this data, but the problem is is that nobody actually understands what the hell this thing is. >> It's a cool new metric that nobody has a clue what it does. >> Yeah, indeed. So the way I like to explain heart rate variability is first by giving a broad definition of what HRV actually is and then I like to backpedal a little bit because I think that the definition that I'm going to give is probably a little bit too broad and heart rate variability in of itself is actually quite nuanced. So when we think about HRV or heart rate variability and I'm going to say HRV probably for the rest of the podcast because heart rate variability is a mouthful. HRV is the single greatest non-invasive proxy that we have for measuring the adaptations of the nervous system. HRV is a signal. It's a window into how the nervous system is responding at any given time or the time we're actually measuring it. And so when we think about HRV, I want people to think about adaptation, to think about resilience, and to think about flexibility. Those are probably three words that I'll use quite often within this context. So if it's looking at the adaptations of the nervous system, I like to backpedal a little bit and I explain what we mean by nervous system because I think a lot of people they hear this word nervous system. It's kind of like one of those cool catchphrases and terms that people use in the health and wellness sphere right now that I don't think people actually fully grasp and understand what it is. So maybe it makes sense for me to explain the nervous system a little bit. Okay. So when we talk about nervous system, we're talking about a massive signaling highway. And when we think about a massive signaling highway, we think about nerve endings that are running throughout the entire body. So all the way from the brain and spinal cord out to the periphery of the body itself. And it's all about communication. It's all about sending signals and messages to and from the brain and the spinal cord out to the body and then back up. So ephrant and apherrant signaling. The nervous system is not just in one location or in one area. So a lot of people when they think about nervous system, they think about what's going on within the brain. That's the central nervous system. So the central nervous system is the brain and the spinal cord. But there are also other signaling highways. One being the peripheral nervous system which is a larger umbrella term that people use. But within the peripheral nervous system we have the sematic nervous system and the autonomic nervous system. Sematic nervous system is all voluntary. So it's movement, coordination, muscular contraction. Whereas the autonomic nervous system is all about involuntary or at least we thought it used to be all involuntary. And so that's this is things like managing things like your respiration, your blood pressure, heart rate, digestion. It's all kind of under autonomic or automatic control. So what does the autonomic nervous system even do? Like what do what do we need it? It's a threat detection signaling mechanism that we have built in from an evolutionary perspective. A great way to think about it is that it's constantly scanning our environments, receiving internal cues, external cues, and making adjustments to our physiology so that we can maintain balance, maintain homeostasis throughout the body because we don't want things disregulated in one way or another because that can cause pretty significant dysfunction from a mind body perspective. So, it's all intended to say, "Hey, let me zone in on which way I need to adjust. Do I need to move blood pressure up? Do I need to move it down? Do I need to increase heart rate up and down? And it's kind of like this back and forth communication highway that we have. When people think about the nervous system, they think about it being either like the stress response or the relaxation response. And it's actually a bit more nuanced than that even. Because when we think about the autonomic nervous system, it consists of two different branches. The sympathetic nervous system and the parasympathetic nervous system. The sympathetic nervous system is what most people see as the fight orflight or freeze response. And I actually think that that's a bit of a bastardization or overgeneralization as to what the sympathetic response is. I actually think that to conceptualize the paras or sorry the sympathetic response. It's much more of a way that we mobilize energy. So if we think about mobilizing energy, why would we need to do that? we would need to mobilize energy in an effort to evade perceived threat or even potential viable threat. And then on the other side we have the parasympathetic nervous system. So when we think about parasympathetic nervous system the way I was taught about this in graduate school is parah is like a parachute. It helps to bring us down. The whole intention behind the parasympathetic nervous system is our rest digest or relaxation response. But again I like to think of it more as a way of conserving energy. So mobilizing energy, sympathetic nervous system, conserving energy, parasympathetic nervous system, and we have both of those kind of working together uh not just antagonistically. They're not just like this seessaw where we turn one on or we turn one off. And that's where a lot of people get this wrong is that there's a misconception that I turn on my stress response and I can turn it off or I turn on my relaxation response or I can turn it off. It doesn't work that way. It's not a seessaw. They actually work together. And so kind of taking a step forward now to HRV and kind of how this relates to everything is that we can actually gain insight or window through a biometric which is heart rate variability which actually looks at that autonomic nervous system and whether or not it's actually making true adaptations and is resilient or is it lacking in flexibility and potentially causing us some significant harm. Why would the distance between heartbeats be a good indication of all of that stuff? Why is that an indication of why is that the canary? The nervous system is having to respond to millions of processes at any given moment. So, it's having to make adaptations at any given moment again to keep us in that state of homeostasis. Otherwise, we become disregulated and we experience what's called alastatic load. In other words, our nervous system can't keep up with all of the input. It's it's basically too much. It's too taxing. And so therefore, when we look at heart rate variability and the distance between successive heartbeats, and I think that actually probably I should offer that definition now and explain why those distances relate actually to dysregulation or regulation of the nervous system. It gives us insight into is it making those fine-tune adjustments and adaptations. So let me back up now and explain heart rate variability from a definition perspective. And the way I like to explain is through the huristic of heart rate that most people understand. So for instance, Chris, you know, if I were to look at your, you know, a wearable that you have on, let's say with your Whoop, and I open up your phone and in your phone I see that your heart is beating at a rate of 60 beats per minute. So we take some really easy math here and we say, okay, so if your heart is beating at a rate of 60 beats per minute, that's one beat that's occurring every single second. And so therefore, we're approximating that across a 60-second window, your heart is beating once every single second, 60 beats per minute. Easy math. Is that actually what's going on? And the answer is no. The heart actually doesn't operate like a metronome. When this starts when the heart starts to operate like a metronome, that's actually when we run into some struggle, when we run into trouble because the thermostat is starting to adjust to say there's a lot of chaos that's going on right now. I need to kind of like hone in back in and regulate the system to kind of a consistent constant beat because I've got other things that I've got to attend to. There's threat that's kind of within my environment. So what we'd actually say is that no, the heart during that 60 minute or 60-cond window that we were looking at wasn't just kind of holding a nice even beat. Actually, it was going up and down and up and down. And if you look at a heart rate of someone just kind of at rest at baseline right now, it kind of looks a little bit chaotic. Like it doesn't actually have a nice little sinosodal pattern or rhythm, it actually looks quite chaotic. And that's because there are many processes that are occurring in that time that it's causing your heart rate to speed up and to slow down and to speed up and to slow down. And so with that, across that, let's say, cycle of speeding up and slowing down, the time between successive heartbeats, which is what we're looking at with heart rate variability is shrinking kind of as we inhale. So that time is going down, down, down because heart rate is increasing. And then as we exhale it's going longer longer longer. So the space between successive heartbeats is actually elongating. [snorts] Now the difference between those heartbeats. So when we look at what is the amount of time and we look at that in milliseconds. So for instance we wouldn't say like there's 1 second or 1.2 seconds in the world of heart rate variability research. We would say there's 1,000 milliseconds or 980 milliseconds. That variance tells us something about the fine tunements that your nervous system is making to adjust to its environment. And [snorts] when it's having a really hard time adjusting, then we see that variance start to decrease. So it may go from, hey, I'm in a really perfectly relaxed mode and my heart rate variability is 100 milliseconds to it may actually start to shrink pretty pretty substantially when we're experiencing stress because our body's having a hard time adapting. So when you say it's a a heart rate variability of 100 milliseconds, that's the swing, that's the distance between shortest and longest. So it depends on the metric you're using. This is actually kind of a misconception that people have with heart rate variability is they think that it's a singular metric when indeed it's not actually a singular metric. It's a whole compilation of metrics. So there's generally around 12 to 15 HRV metrics that people use. I know it gets comp it gets complicated. We don't need to make it over complicated. It it explains whether you are making the distance between heartbeats longer or shorter and how much of that occurs across a given time period. >> Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Exactly. So, and and that variance that occurs between heartbeats. Uh the reason that's so incredibly valuable and so important for people to understand is because as we examined whether or not your nervous system is truly adapting to its environment, we can take that number and plot it across time and see whether or not it is changing or is it staying the same or is it decreasing. And this is again another misconception that people have is they believe that heart rate variability is this metric that I should always see going in an upward direction. it should always be progressing in an upward direction when in fact and this actually comes from my really close friend his name is Dr. Marco Latini, Italian researcher, brilliant in this space. He actually says that a good HRV is actually a normal HRV. It is a HRV that doesn't change across time very much. So, it's actually one that remains stable. And we can get into that if you if you want, but HRV is a metric that shouldn't just be taken out of context and looking at just what is it right now, but what is it across time? >> Is a high HRV always good and is a low one always bad? If I had a dollar for every email I got asking that question of whether or not, you know, my HRV is good because it is said number or bad because of said number. I'd be a very rich man right now. So, I would say that this is a little nuanced. High HRV is good, but it's only good when it's relative to you. It's not good when we're saying, "Hey, I want to compare my HRV to someone else." That's actually where we can get into trouble. High HRV as it is relative to you could be good. That could be a sign of adaptation for you. So let's say Chris for instance, easy math, your HRV typically is 50 milliseconds. So if we see that across time that number is going from 50 to 60 to 65 to 70, well relative to you, that's pretty good. But I may look at someone, you know, else whose HRV is their baseline is 100 milliseconds and over the course of time it's actually gone from 100 to 90 to 85. Well, the absolute value is still much higher than yours, but I would say that you're showing way better adaptations from a nervous system perspective than they are. So high isn't what we're aiming for here because this is not a it's not a metric of virtue. And I think that this is where people get into a lot of trouble. They see whoever health influencer posts their aura or Whoop score on their Instagram page and they've got a heart rate variability score of 150 milliseconds and like [ __ ] like I've got mine is like 25. And that's when I get the email like am I going to die? Like am I going to have like some cardiovascular issues or panic attacks that are going to cause me to die? And I always say hey let's pump the brakes. Let's pump the veagal break here and just relax for a second. Like what's most important here is not looking at whether or not it's high or low. It's looking at stability across time. And one metric that's not used very often, but I use this a lot with my within my clinic. So I work with a lot of pro aletes, you know, ranging from individuals in the MLB, NFL, Formula 1, etc. And one of the metrics I use for them with recovery is actually not looking at just the daily absolute value score that you might get from Whoop or etc. I actually look at a number called HRVCV, which is the coefficient of variation of heart rate variability, which is a long-winded way of saying from day to day, how much does your HRV vary? So, we look at it across a 7-day window. Is it varying significantly, indicating that it's having a hard time adjusting because it's going up and down and up and down, maybe due to stress, overtraining, overreaching, or is it nice and stable, indicating that the nervous system is always rebounding? It's always doing what it should do. So, I know that's a long-winded way of saying is high good, low bad. The answer is yes and no, but mostly no. >> Right. Why why do certain people have different HRVs to others? Because I've got a whoop team and on my whoop team is a bunch of proathletes and I have a weightlifter friend whose HRV I've seen in the 200s 210. I've got a professional cricketer friend is is regularly in the 150s. And then there's me and the rest of my degenerate friends that are kind of scrabbling around in midlife. >> There are a lot of different factors that come into play here. So you have to think about a couple things. I think the biggest thing are what are the non-modifiable factors that influence heart rate variability and then what are the modifiable factors because I think that we place a lot of pressure in a day and age where there's like so much I guess biometric hypervigilance. We place a lot of pressure on ourselves to have certain metrics meet whatever our standards are. Typically, they're pretty arbitrary standards because people are just like, "Again, I saw somebody who had a 200 millisecond HRV. I probably should have that because they're a pro alete." We're comparing apples and oranges here. We're using the same metric, but we're comparing two different physiological symptoms uh presentations. So, let's talk then about first non-modifiable influencers because I think that that's the one that people need to hear more than anything. The first one's age. Like age is one of the primary uh non-modifiable factors that we see within the literature. Like if you go and you look at the literature that compares normative values across longitudinal time in these in these studies, we see that there is a distinct negative slope. And one of the things that's happening is that generally around ages 40 to 50 or so or even like in the mid30s, we start to see a pretty steep decline in baseline heart rate variability. This is due to a lot of reasons. I mean, we have things like uh autonomic efficiency is reduced. So, the ability to kind of like actually handle stress is reduced likely due to compounding stress and we're just, you know, disillusioned by like all the stuff that we've experienced in life. The second is like vascular stiffening. So, as we get older, we actually know that we have vascular stiffening whether it be due to things like atheroscerotic plaque buildup or like the hardening of arteries like that can occur. So, we see this steep decrease. The great news though is that even though we see declination in HRV across kind of the longitudinal studies in regards to age, we actually know that the ceiling for HRV isn't reduced. And so what I mean by that is that just because it declines doesn't mean that we can't increase it and doesn't mean that there is some ceiling that it's like, okay, when I once I hit 60 years old, I'll never get over 30 milliseconds. So that's the good news. So age is one non-modifiable factor. The second one would be genetics. And I guess given kind of advances in technology like crisper and stuff, people might argue that you can now influence this aspect. But I would say that currently with what we have, we cannot influence it. It's just genetics. Like some people are actually just born with a genetic predisposition towards lower heart rate variability. So when we look at twin studies on hereditability of these genes related to cardiovascular structure and nervous system structure like we find that there is a pretty moderate to high influence of genetics on HRV and kind of as a as a story like I see this all the time with my my proathletes actually like I'll have a pro alete come into my clinic and I'll have one come in who's an Olympic sprinter who is in the best cardiovascular condition that you could ever imagine. V2 max like out the roof, but his but his actual HRV is like in the 30s, 40s, and then I'll have another guy like an NFL, let's say, lineman who maybe isn't in the highest degree of cardiovascular shape, but it's still in good shape to be able to take on all that they do. And genetically, they just have a high predisposition towards HR, high HRV, and it's in the 150s, 160s. And so, it's like, okay, is one healthier than the other because one has a higher HRV versus low HRV? And the answer is is that we have no evidence in the literature to suggest that that HRV should be seen that number absolute value should be seen as a longevity metric. Before we continue, I am a massive fan of reducing your alcohol intake, but historically non-alcoholic brews tastes like ass. You don't need to be doing some big reset. Maybe you just want to crack a cold one without feeling like garbage the next morning. Which is why I am such a huge fan of Athletic Brewing Co. 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But if I was able to experience their HIV or experience their nervous system, do you have anything that indicates that the guy at 150 and the guy at 30 would experience their nervous systems differently? Because what you're saying here is what matters is you relative to you over time, >> not you relative to somebody else. And the reason that they have that set point is because of a lot of things that are non-modifiable and modifiable. But even those things taken into account, would their experience of their nervous systems be different? Would the guy at 150 be more likely to be able to come back down after some sort of high arousal state? Is he going to be more likely to fall asleep more quickly? Or is it literally just all contained within the system? And they're completely uncomparable. >> Yeah, the the answer broadly is no. their experience. If you were to jump into say someone who has a 200 millisecond, 250, 300 millisecond RMSSD value in their HRV baseline reading overnight, you wouldn't necessarily inherently experiencing anything different purely just based on that baseline reading. Now, that person may have really strong, let's call Barrow reflex gain or a really strong adaptive nervous system to stress because maybe they've been training it or some other things are influencing their ability to be resilient in terms of a nervous system perspective. You may notice it then depending on kind of your baseline level of stress and anxiety, but just purely based on feel. No, it's kind of like I I think this is kind of analogous to uh blood pressure, right? So if if if you were to have let's say a standard blood pressure of 120 over 75 and then you were to hop into the body of somebody who has like say a 145 over 95, you wouldn't necessarily experience it just kind of at baseline a difference in feel. And so that that's kind of synonymous or I guess I would say analogous to to HRV. But if you got somebody who's got a very welldynamicly trained nervous system to adapt to stress and so their inherent physiology, knows what to do when it encounters stress and almost does it subconsciously, you might experience that especially if you had a high propensity towards things like anxiety, stress, even depression. >> Interesting. What about the modifiable ones? Well, let me let me mention one more non-modifiable because this is another one that I get to pick on females about. So, so there's there's >> We don't do enough of that on this book, though. >> Right. Exactly. Another another tall white guy coming to pick on females. >> Uh men uh so sex differences is the non- mindful again another one that we can get in trouble. [laughter] >> Sex differences. The we know from the literature men typically have a higher average heart rate variability than women do. Um, and actually 6'5 guy here, taller guys typically have higher heart rate variabilities and actually uh lower resonant frequency rates of breathing. I'm sure we're going to talk about resonant frequency rates as well. >> And this is just a a sex difference that we see. And one of the main reasons is that women as we know go through a 28 day cycle. And so because of this ministration cycle that or menstrual cycle that they go through, [snorts] we actually know that different phases of their cycle uh can influence different hormonal expressions. So mostly stark drops in things like progesterone and in uh estrogen especially during like the late ludial phase can increase sympathetic drive and reduce heart rate variability pretty significantly. So when you average that out across time we see that women's especially pre menopausal women their HRV tends to be quite lower than than men's. >> Okay. Modifiable. >> Yeah modifiable. The biggest one is cardiorespiratory fitness. So we actually know that when someone increases things like stroke volume, when they increase or lower blood pressure, and especially when they lower their heart rate, resting heart rate, that this [snorts] can indeed increase baseline heart rate variability. I never say that HRV because we should say what HRV like is useful for and what it's not useful for because this is not like a catch-all metric that can be used for everything. I actually think it's best used in conjunction with other metrics. So it's kind of like a piece of the puzzle as opposed to the full puzzle itself. >> Cardiorespiratory fitness. So as VF2 max increases, we know that resting heart rate decreases, stroke volume of the heart increases. And so therefore we actually see heart rate variability improvements. And this can be and this can range. It can range from pretty significant changes in baseline HRV to not much at at all. I I don't like to set it as the goalpost. So it's like hey I want to raise my HRV then so therefore I should go get better cardiorespiratory fitness. I think we're thinking about it in the wrong way. It's a bit bit ass backwards there. I think it's hey let's increase cardiorespiratory fitness because we know it's great for health wellness and longevity and also great for mood and mental health. And then the byproduct of that is that we'll see typically HRV in increase. >> Uh the other one is chronic health conditions. So we know that people who have chronic health conditions like cardiovascular disease, diabetes, chronic pain, those all significantly lower heart rate variability. So the one thing that I would say is that if you were battling with any of those kind of conditions, and it probably doesn't even need to be said, is that working on kind of managing those is going to be a significant way to move heart rate variability in the in the right direction. And then the last one which is probably what I'd argue and I'm a little bit biased on this and is the most important is just overall stress load. Like if you are someone who is like the typical person in today's day and age especially Americans is that we are freaking stressed all the time. And this chronic buildup of stress over time then results or equates to a nervous system that becomes way more rigid, way less adaptive. uh we're not able to actually have these things that we encounter in a day-to-day basis bounce off of us as easily. And so therefore, we kind of retreat to just kind of this chronic state of stress where we're on high alert scanning the environments for threats non-stop. And that has a negative a net negative compounding effect on us. And so I think that if there's anything that people could do is just creating better adaptability to internal and external stress. >> Okay. What doesn't it measure? What does HIV not measure? >> Yeah, HIV is not a measure of direct stress. I think a lot of people will think of, oh, I see HRV and that's how stressed I am, right? >> And so therefore then I should >> Well, you did just say something that sounds a lot like HRV would be a direct measure of stress. >> Okay. Well, let me I can I can backpedal a little bit and and say what I say there. So, and and I think you're talking about me saying how do we improve it is by helping >> if you are more stressed, therefore over time your HIV is going to decrease. Yes. Therefore, my HIV has gone down. I must be stressed. >> Right? What I should what I should say is that when I think about stress, I'm thinking about the psychological construct of stress. And so, there's physiological stress and psychological stress. And both of them actually manifest in the body the the the same way. I don't look at HRV and say like, so for instance, if I put a strap on you and I said, "Okay, let's measure Chris's HRV right now." And it's a singular reading. Now, I know a good bit about your HRV, but let's just say I didn't know anything about your HRV and I looked at that data point. What could I tell you about your stress response? The answer is I could tell you basically nothing. One singular reading outside of any context in regards to HRV isn't a signaling window to me telling you I can see how, you know, on a on a spectrum how stressed Chris is. >> I can't gain that. Now over time I can say HRV is showing me how well you adapt to stress, how flexible you are to stress. Not how stressed you are, but how adaptable to stress you are. There's nuance there. So there's a difference between those two. So I can't just take that absolute value and number and say, okay, I'm at a 50 milliseconds this morning when I took my HRB reading and so therefore like I know that I am stressed. And so when people try to tap into that as a hey I'm going to use that as the guide it sets them up for disaster because then we have this nasty unwinding like self-fulfilling prophecy of people looking at these data points and especially without context just looking at singular data points and then using that to drive decisions because one reading of HRV should never be used to drive decision-m >> okay it seems to me at the moment that our ability to measure HIV is significantly better than our understanding of how to influence it. We've been given a ton of really great tools and you can wear your Aura or your Whoop or your Apple Watch and it will give you this reading >> and yet almost no one really understands what it is. It's kind of a complex metric. It's not superbly simple. It's taking you half an hour to kind of deconstruct what it means. Uh, and I think if you were to ask most people, even whoop wearers, your HIV, if I told you that you needed to increase it by 5% next month, what would you do? >> Uh, sleep more. Maybe they'd say something like that. Um, I know that it's to do with stress, so I'll try and be less stressed. >> Whatever that means. Um, maybe I'll try and become fitter or something. but directly influencing HIV and sort of what the constituent parts are. So yeah, at the moment it does seem a lot like people have got the ability to detect it but aren't yet able to influence it. [sighs and gasps] >> Yeah, the I want to give credit where credit's due. It's like these wearable companies. So fill in the blank Whoop or a Pyison Apple all these great wearable companies that are out there that people are leveraging. I think I heard like the last stat was like 40% of Americans I think or maybe like even close to like 50% >> form of a wearable >> have some form of wearable. So we're all getting this biometric data. The problem is and so much frustration starts to arise when people wake up and they say well I have this data point here that's supposed to drive some level of self-awareness but it's not necessarily driving any type of action. And I think that's where people can get frustrated. So you tell me that my nervous system is disregulated. you tell me that my sleep is poor, but now what do I do about it? So, in that sense, I think that diagnostics have really uh kind of outpaced the interventive side of what we can what we can actually do. And so part of me is like, well now I think it's time to bring to the light like things that people can actually do that have been proven within the cy scientific literature to help you make these adaptations to the nervous system so that we can again take all the great data that we get from wearables. we can leverage that data but then use it kind of in a way that's applied and actually if one of the things I like to say is that HRV is best used in an applied real-time setting and I think that's actually where most people don't have uh an understanding and and then therefore probably not an appreciation for HRV as much as they should because they've never used it in an applied realtime setting. You wake up the next morning and your Whoop gives you a score of what you had last night and you maybe you can work out that you did something yesterday. I mean, if you had a a beer before you went to bed, okay, there we go. That's associated in my journal or whatever. >> But yeah, you're right that everybody has this number that kind of appears and feels almost at the mercy of it. I It's down again. I guess I I I guess I'm not doing something right. But the ability to intervene um isn't as educated. Okay. So, one of the things that we've kind of hinted at is that there are ways that you can state change and ways that you can trait change. So, there are sort of immediate acute ways that you can intervene and then over time there is a adaptability side to the nervous system. What is it doing longitudinally across the months, across the years, across your entire life? Talk to me about the difference between a state change and a trait change in this context. >> So much confusion arises because people think or they ask the question to me all the time. It's like well is this breathing strategy or meditative strategy just going to affect me in the here and now? So more of an acute transient change or is there actual evidence to suggest that if I consistently practice this then I'll have more trait or longitudinal changes. So state changes are things that are occurring transiently. so happening right now. And then trait changes are things that are actually occurring across time that are building a more robust system. You can think about it as more of like if we fine-tune the engine of a car over time. So maybe we know that there's a little bit of some, you know, some I'm not a mechanic here, but you know, maybe we know that there's some creeks and some things that are going wrong. We hear the belt, you know, kind of like not working in its proper way. Can we fine-tune it over time so that we can create a more robust engine that maybe one day we create this car that we're working on over time to create more of like a race car or something that can actually perform at a really high level. So, we know that things like breathing is is probably the single greatest lever that we can pull maybe aside from focusing on sleep that breathing is one of the greatest levers that we can pull towards state change, but it's also a lever that we can pull more towards trait change. And we have really great studies and evidence based uh that that that I use to kind of base my claim here. State change. What is happening when we are let's say engaging in something like slow pace breathing or resonance breathing which we know is an effective strategy for shifting and regulating the nervous system. We start to create this internal environment. we start to distinctively change our physiology so that it experiences a position of safety, a position of security. I always like to kind of share the story. It's like it would make no sense that if we were in [snorts] face of a viable threat, uh let's say the mountain lions chasing us for us to stop and take a moment to do some deep breathing because we need to execute and mobilize all that energy. The sympathetic nervous system needs to be firing on all cylinders. We need to have that parasympathetic withdrawal. We need everything that we can to get out of that or fight in that environment. So, when we take the time to slow our breathing down, we're sending direct physiological signals up to the brain and and to the central nervous system that says, well, the only opportunity that we would want to utilize this strategy is when we're in a safe and protected environment. And so therefore from a physiological perspective all of these dynam all these things start to dynamically change and we can get into the dynamics of what's occurring in the physiology if you like but all of these are happening so that we can calm and rest the nervous system in that moment and that then results in that experience of relaxation. However the and that's great acutely like we want that big meeting coming up that you have to speak with investors. We need to be able to downregulate the nervous system and and change that state really quickly, reduce anxiety, improve mental acuity, etc. But that is only going to last for so long. So, how do we build a robust system that then starts to translate into basically all areas of life and where we're not having to consciously think about regulating our nervous system. And that is where trait change starts to take place. And that can only come from consistent practice of resonance breathing of any other type of meditation whatever it may be for nervous system regulation. And the interesting thing or the the analogy I like to make about this is like it's like going to the gym, right? It's like I can go into the gym right now and get a really great bicep workout, get a really great pump and it feels excellent, blood's flowing in the muscles, great great day. But then if I don't ever go back to the gym again, it's like, well, I had that nice, great workout that was a great state change for that period of time, but I didn't make these adaptations. My muscles didn't get stronger because of that. They didn't get larger because of that. The nervous system works in the exact same way. So, it's like when I do a lot of these practices that I'm sure we'll get into, I think about me every single time. It's like me going to the nervous system gym. And every breath that I take, that's like a rep. It's like every time I do 10 minutes of this breathing practice, that's like a workout. And I know that as I compound workouts across time, the research has demonstrated that we actually experience more longitudinal or trait changes or our our nervous systems ther starts to actually dial in the direction that we're training it. And that's when we can and that's when we've made a nervous system that's flexible and can handle a lot of the things that stress that that life throws at us like stress. A quick aside, do you remember learning about the mighty mitochondria back in grade school? Here's a quick refresher. It's the tiny engine inside of your cells that powers everything you do. But here's what they didn't teach you. As you age, your mitochondria break down. That's what can cause you to feel tired more often, take longer to recover, and wake up feeling like you're never fully recharged, no matter how long you sleep. 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Let's say that someone's about to go into a meeting and they're feeling nervous and they do some resonance breathing. How quickly does their nervous system actually adapt? Not adapt, how quickly does it respond? A lot of it depends on how long they've been doing it and how consistently. But let's say, let's take it from this person's never heard of resonance breathing. They've never done a single resonance breath. And I know we have to unpack what resonance breathing actually is, but let's just say they've never done it. Okay? [snorts] They their nervous system will begin to respond. So veagal firing the tenth cranial nerve the vagus nerve will begin firing almost instantaneously. So within seconds they'll start to make these really beautiful oscillations in their heart rate. They may be small initially but within seconds it starts to it starts to respond. Funny thing enough is that the parasympathetic nervous system so again the parachute brings us down the relaxation response works much faster than the sympathetic nervous system. So be surprising given that you think someone fires a gun or a lion comes at you, the sympathetic would turn on very quickly. You're saying that the opposite is true that the parasympathetic is even quicker. >> It's even quicker and it's so so it's not to say that the sympathetic nervous system isn't fast. It's really fast. However, the parasympathetic nervous system is much faster because when we think about the vagus nerve, which is our wandering nerve, it intervates basically every part of our body and sends communication up to the medulla in the in the brain, which is like basically a control system of our central nervous system. It responds immensely quickly and one of the fastest ways that we can shift that state is just breathing. So with for you within a single breath you can actually start to enhance that veagal activation which is a pretty incredible feature that we have as human beings is to be able to use something as simple as our breath to adapt that quickly. >> Well because you can't go to sleep right now. You said one of the other ways is to work on sleep. I can't sleep right now. >> Yeah. >> But I can breathe right now. >> Yeah. You can breathe right now. And the thing is too is that you can do it in a controlled environment where nobody's watching you and you can be using a device or an apparatus. Great. You can do it that way. But you can also do it, you know, in an environment where there's plenty of people and no one's really knowing that you're sitting there regulating your nervous system. I've been trying to do it here, you know, since we've been talking is just slow the pace of my breathing down because as people probably hear, like I tend to get quite excited and I can talk fast. So when I slow my breathing down that can actually increase my overall mental acuity and then therefore >> why does it increase mental acuity? >> So that probably takes a little bit of time just to explain the science behind this and you can kind of like slap slap me if we're going like a little bit too much. >> Keep it simple. >> Okay, we'll keep it simple. So our body has a natural blood pressure regulation system in it called the barrerow reflex response. The barrerow reflex response is essentially like cruise control for your blood pressure. It's always trying to kind of dial up and dial down whenever it needs to based on what it's seeing in terms of physiological change. That barrerow reflex mechanism is what bridges the gap between our autonomic nervous system and our cardiovascular system. So it's kind of that bridge or pathway for communication [snorts] when our barrerow reflex is not working like it should. So let's say we're experiencing some nervous system dysregulation. What happens within the barrel reflex mechanism is [snorts] that it essentially will identify changes in blood pressure and then immediately it will try to overshoot to course correct because it basically is like I'm on high alert. I'm going to send the signal to the to the nervous system that we need to really course correct. It's like a great example of this is like the older cars with like cruise control. When they first came out with cruise control, they were like really crappy at like actually doing what they were supposed to do. So the speed would modulate like 5 to 10 miles an hour and then the engine would just like abruptly like shift and would overshoot. Now we're going 5 or 10 miles over. Whereas like the newer cars, they have better barrel reflex gain because a mile an hour over and it adjusts nicely and smoothly. So you can imagine that when your nervous system is disregulated and you're having all of these overshootings of blood pressure that are occurring, it causes a lot of different dynamics in terms of how we feel. Increased heart rate, blood rushing kind of to places really quickly. Like when blood pressure goes up, you may not be ne able to necessarily feel it if you don't have a high level of interosception or feeling of the body. But if you do, then you can kind of notice how it impacts mental acuity for the most part. So why does it impact mental acuity? Is that that barrel reflex response when it becomes quite disregulated, it changes basically like blood flow dynamics and veagal firing dynamics which can cause that stress response to become quite heightened and almost like unruly and uncontrolled which basically will start to flood uh our nervous system to think that there's a threat that's that's within within kind of like distance of us. And so therefore, our mind is now trying to pursue all the different ways to kind of fight or flee and get out of there as opposed to kind of like locking in getting into this nice deep flow state where blood pressure is really nicely managed in the way that it should be. >> So if you think that there's a line over your shoulder, now is not the time to remember the speech that you're trying to present in 20 minutes. You're not recruiting your mental faculties in order to be able to do that. You're busy worrying about this like imaginary tiger. >> Yeah. And the problem though is is that the tiger may be all all the people in front of you. Am I going to embarrass myself? Am I going to get into a situation where I don't land the deal or I don't say things the way that I'm supposed to? And so now it's all this. It's not a viable threat. It's a perceived threat, but it's having the impact on your physiology and your mental acuity like a viable threat would. >> Okay. How about actually changing the underlying nervous system adaptation? Then we've talked about kind of the state change. What about the trait change? How long does that take to actually get someone's nervous system to adapt and move over time? >> Yeah, this is all going to come from the literature on resonance frequency bio feedback. So resonance frequency is kind of a long- winded way or a very kind of complex way of saying is that we can modulate our breathing like the speed of breathing which is frequency kind of how fast we breathe to create physiological resonance in the body. The resonance from a physiological perspective is when two or more systems are oscillating at the same speed. So they're working in synergy with one another. They're oscillating at the same rate. So when [snorts] we do something like resonance breathing which was coined by a a guy named Paul Lair out of you know Rucker Medical School who found that breathing at certain paces and for adult humans this is generally from four and a half breaths per minute as to high as six and a half per breaths per minute when we breathe kind of within that range and we can pinpoint specifically where our resonance frequency is through through some different testing. [snorts] When we breathe at that rate, we start to align what's called our respiratory sinus arhythmia, which is as we inhale again, heart rate's going up and as we exhale, heart rate goes down. So it creates this beautiful kind of like sinusodal pattern. We align breathing and respiration or respiration with heart rate. And then we also align that with our barrerow reflex mechanism that I was referring to just a second ago. [snorts] When you do one single session of resonance breathing, you can start to make those initial adaptations at about minute 6 to 12. So sweet spot is probably around minute 10 or so from the from the literature. when you do that consistently. So in the research studies when they've looked at different cohorts where they've compared that type of breathing, resonance breathing, they've generally found that breathing at for 10 minutes at the resonance rate around four to six days a week actually led to trait changes of the autonomic nervous system in as little as four weeks and as much as 12 weeks. So kind of like split the difference about 8 to 10 is when we really see people start to make those changes. >> What was the mean change? Do you know? >> And when you say mean change >> average what was the average change increase 5% 1% 10%. >> And are we talking about heart rate variability? Yeah. So heart rate variability is one of the things that they were looking at. So low frequency power which is which is basically like how much veagal output how strong the signal of veagal output. So we saw that change by a magnitude anywhere from I mean we'd see it go anywhere from 50% to as much as 300 400%. >> That's during the session. >> Yep. >> Yes. However, baseline changes which we're actually looking at more of like fine blood pressure changes that are occurring. So that's actually more the sign of is someone actually making a trait change which is as we breathe is blood pressure following very specifically like a fine-tuned fork with your breathing. If it's not then we have what's called low barrerow reflex gain. The nervous system is having a hard time keeping up. It's that cruise control example. Really hard time adapting. But when we have high barrow reflex gain which comes from all of this consistent training of HRV bio feedback or resonance breathing [snorts] then that fine-tunement then results in our ability to adapt quickly and that quick adaptation then results in blood pressure moving at an instant when you tell it and very smoothly when you tell it. So low frequency power and HRV can increase significantly as well. But high frequency power is another one. So at resting baseline, we're actually looking at changes in what's called high frequency power. And we see that that can change in order of magnitude anywhere from 20 40 50%. >> I I don't think I'm fully up to speed on what low frequency power and high frequency power are. >> So we when you are looking at your Whoop score every single morning and you see that number that is HRV, it's in milliseconds, we call that a time domain indicy. A time domain indicy is exactly as it says. It's just looking at the time difference between successive heartbeats. We can take the data which is all those raw intervals between heartbeats. So all those time intervals and we can apply some mathematical equations and algorithms to it. Something called an FFT or a fast foyer transformation which is essentially when we take those data run it through a prism and then get the component rhythm values of that. Best way to explain this because that's probably very confusing is to think about this as being analogous to an EEG. So I put electrodes all over your head. I look at your brain wave states and the amount of signaling and power of that brain wave and I get this raw EEG. I can take that raw EG and I can filter it and start to get the component rhythm rhythms of your of your brain wave state and how strong they're responding. Alpha, beta, theta, gamma, delta, and so forth. We can do the same thing and look at characteristics of your cardiovascular system. uh we just call it something different in in in the HRB world. It's just three bands that are typically looked at. It's the very low frequency band, low frequency and high frequency. So when you're breathing at a slow paced rate, so you're doing HRV BOF feedback for instance or resonance breathing, you start to create these really long sinosodal low frequency oscillations of your heart rate. So the peak to trroth differences between your heart rate start to change significantly. Mh. So maybe at rest your heart rate's just going from, let's say, 60 up to 63, 64, 65, and then back down. >> Now we're going from your heart rate's at 60. It's going up to 75, 80, 90 even if you have really strong barrel reflex gain. And then it's dropping and it's going well below 60 to 55, 50, 40, 45. >> So that's low frequency power, these real sinosoidal large scale changes in the in in the heart rate. So when we see someone that has a lot of power in the low frequency band, we typically know that they're breathing at a really slow rate and that's an oscillation that's occurring that's in line again with that barrow reflex response. And then high frequency power is what we call the respiratory sinus arhythmia band. So at rest when you're not breathing at a slow pace, most of the power should be in the high frequency band because that's where kind of just the normal breathing oscillation should occur. So when we look at high frequency power, we know that as someone becomes more attuned to resonance breathing, that number increases because your vag nerve is what is driving the power there. >> Even though you're not directly training the high frequency stuff, low frequency work impact the high frequency. >> 100%. Yeah, >> that's I mean it's good that it is that way or else you'd have to do high frequency training too. You'd have to do two different types of training which would be annoying. >> Yeah. And you can kind of bookend it. Like a lot of companies like who are doing bio feedback will bookend it where they're not doing training but they're doing like pre-post analysis. So they're looking at okay when you start the session what is your time domain indices and low frequency you know high frequency band look like and then you do the session we look at all that data in terms of frequency domains. And at the end of the session, we look at that data and we say, okay, from pre to post, what was the significant was there a significant increase in high frequency power at rest. And then across time, we actually start to look and plot, okay, baseline high frequency power has gone from, you know, whatever it's 10,000 milliseconds squared be really high. We'll go 2,000 milliseconds squared and now that's when they started the BOF feedback practice. They've done it consistently for 10 weeks and now at rest it's at like 6,000 milliseconds squared worth of power. That tells us that that delta of 4,000 milliseconds squared of power indicates that there was indeed actual entrainment of the nervous system across that period of time. >> This episode is brought to you by Shopify. Look, 2026 is the year that you're finally going to launch that business you've been thinking about for ages. Because, as you've heard me harp on about, making a to-do list for the thing isn't doing the thing. Telling people you're going to do the thing still isn't doing the thing. But here's the good news. Shopify makes it unbelievably easy to actually do the thing. They make it very simple to create your brand, open for business, and get your first sale. They've got thousands of customizable templates, so all you need to do is drag and drop. You don't need coding skills or design skills, can manage things like shipping, taxes, payments, all from one simple dashboard. And when it comes to converting browsers into buyers, they are best-in-class. Their checkout is 36% better on average compared to other leading commerce platforms. And with Shop Pay, you can boost conversions up to 50%. Shopify takes all of the messiness of running a business off your plate so that you can focus on the job that you came here to do, which is designing and selling an awesome product. And right now, you can sign up for a $1 per month trial period by going to the link in the description below or heading to shopify.com/modernwisdom all lowercase. That's shopify.com/modernwisdism to start selling today. Okay. Talk to me about BOF feedback, resonance, breathing. These are terms people probably haven't heard before. What is it? >> Resonance breathing. Oh, here's the one thing too that I'll mention and uh in an effort not to be too much of like a contrarian kermagin. Who like that alliteration there? Uh in an effort not to do that, I will say that I think that there's been a bit of a disservice and that resonance breathing in and of itself has not seen the the daylight yet in the health and wellness sphere. And I'm glad that we're having this discussion and bringing it to light because I honestly think that as far as breathing strategy goes, it's one of the most overlooked forms of or interventions that we have for dynamically shifting the nervous system. >> Well, everybody does. Most people are familiar with breath work. >> Yeah. >> Almost everybody has done some form of it. Even if it's just they use Waking Up with Sam Harrison, he tells you to take a breath in and a breath out at the very beginning. Something like that. all the way up to they've gone to do a breath work class. They've tried Wimhof. They've done holotropic stuff. Maybe they've done slow paced breathing. Maybe they've done box breathing 555. Maybe they've done some some other version of this whatever is the 7383 circle or whatever. Um but this is kind of taking it to a bit of a different level. >> Yeah. What we don't have in the literature is that those other breathing strategies that you used and this is again I don't want to push back too hard on this whole field of breath work. I do have some gripe with the general field of breath work that I can talk about but I don't want to be like I don't want to overindex on saying like all of it's bad. I just think that a lot of it's just been people have taken way too much advantage of it. The one thing that all those breath work practices that you mentioned don't have are robust studies demonstrating trait change. They just they're they're just not there. At least to my knowledge. Now, I'm more than willing to wave the white flag if that comes out and be a, you know, proponent of those types of strategies. If we see later down the road that they indeed are effective not just in changing people's state change, but are actually like going to change people's inner workings of their nervous system adaptation. Well, I think a lot of people when they're doing breath work in that manner, they're not even necessarily thinking about the trait change to their physiology over time. A lot of people are using breath work as a state shift. In fact, I think State Shift is one of the biggest breath work apps and uh they're using it to get themselves more energized and alert or calmer in the moment >> or they're using it to bypass a few blocks in their psychology to allow them to access emotions that maybe they've been struggling to deal with, to do some kind of a release. uh to work with a practitioner to help them through kind of the level zero of the psychedelic >> pyramid uh includes you using breath work to kind of just alter your experience of the world a little and ah I I I feel a bit different about talking about that problem now or the [ __ ] that relationship stress that's been weighing on me for a little while it's it's come out and I've not been able to stop it and that felt cathartic or whatever I don't think most people are thinking about this is a a real physiological hypertrophy training for my vagus nerve uh input. >> Agreed. Agreed. And there's nothing wrong with that. So just to be clear, I think that if someone is utilizing some type of proprietary novel way of nervous system coaching or breathing or you know breath work, they're doing it because I want to have this state change. I want to experience some relaxation. >> I just want to be relaxed for an hour. >> Yeah. Totally fine with it. Now, are they going to necessarily experience the continued downstream effects? Maybe. But we don't necessarily have the research to suggest that many of these more novel practices do indeed have these longer term trait changes. I mean even something that like is being talked about a lot today in the health and wellness sphere in terms of breathing which is the physiological sigh or cyclic sighing doesn't necessarily have the robust research like definitely doesn't have the robust research that resonance breathing does on longerterm longitudinal or systemic change in the nervous system. would not surprise me that for the people who aren't huban pill the [snorts] [sighs and gasps] that sort of big breath in top it off and then blow out through typically pedal lips. >> Yeah. >> Um who how many times you doing that to think oh yeah if I do this twice a day it's two breaths dude like it really is the time and attention sufficient to do that. Okay, your disclaimer about the potential problems with the [ __ ] world of breath work are out. [laughter] Talk to me about resonance breathing and bio feedback. What is it? Why does it work? How do you do it? >> Yeah. So, BOF feedback was discovered back in the '60s '7s and it was initially discovered by a lot of Russian physiologists who were actually studying space exploration and trying to get the Russians up to space. And so therefore they were looking at well how do we ensure that we get these uh astronauts in the best physiological shape that we possibly can. And so they just started measuring everything. They said we're going to measure every single metric that we possibly can. And then they came across and said well actually now that we measured it and we have seen because this is when they came across heart rate variability that there these there's these interesting characteristics of people's nervous systems that I think we're looking at when we look at HRV but we don't really know for sure. The only way to test that really is to start introducing different interventions or start introducing different things that we see you know in real time are actually moving the needle in terms of people's nervous system response. And so then back in the ' 60s7s uh researchers here in the US started to team up with these Russian researchers. They said okay we see that there dynamic aspects of the nervous system that we can measure here. We also noticed that when people breathe, something kind of weird happens with their HRV. Something weird happens with all these dynamics, but we can't fully explain it. So, we should start to put it to the test. So, they started to say, well, what if we manipulate that thing? What if we manipulate things like breathing? Can that then change how the nervous system responds in real time? And then later on, of course, the research says, can it respond uh can it start to respond that way in baseline to where people don't have to consciously move the needle? And that's where HRV bio feedback was kind of like discovered. And the word resonance breathing kind of like we were mentioning earlier was something that was coined because we saw that again we're aligning these physiological mechanisms of breathing and heart rate and also our blood pressure regulation. When we can align all of those things at the same exact time, we start to create this beautiful symphony, this beautiful pattern, this great relationship. We start to see that instead of just the throttle of the gas pedal, so that sympathetic nervous system being kind of like modulated on and off and the brake pedal being modulated on and off just kind of at at random, if you will. And by random I mean because of physiology we actually start to see that you can use breathing to do the break in and out. So kind of like flutter the break in and out at will and so resonance frequency came along when Dr. Paul Lair said okay I see that there's these fixed characteristics of this barrel reflex response of this breathing response on heart rate and respiratory sinus arhythmia. let's see what happens like when we introduce this as a training protocol. And when they started to introduce this as a training protocol and they published many studies on this, they found that well not only are we changing someone's physiology, but people are now saying, well, I feel a lot less stressed. I feel like I'm adapting better. I don't feel like stress is kind of like running over me as much as I can. I feel mood lifting. So less of that like negative emotional veilance there. And so BOF feedback has been around for quite some time and many companies have tried to introduce BOF feedback in a way that's consumerfriendly. But the problem is is that there's always been so much friction to doing it and again like we've been talking about it for a while. It's not an easy topic for most people to understand. So what does it then require? Well, you got to pay a clinician. It's really expensive. They got to use all of this like hardcore software and gear. It becomes quite difficult. >> [snorts] >> So, how can we just make this accessible to everybody? Well, these technology companies came out and said, "Well, we'll just use kind of like everyday sensors. We'll use like wearables or a chest strap, like a like an EKG chest strap, and then we'll just have you like breathe at this with this pacer in and out. You'll be able to watch your heart rate variability in real time. And then over time that will then indeed result in improved autonomic flexibility, better emotional and stress resiliency and and so forth. So HRV BOF feedback is a tool that we use. It is an intervention tool. So as opposed to just looking at HRV as a data point where it's actually using HRV in real time to guide the changes that are occurring in your nervous system. So bio feedback being biological feedback in real time >> detecting something coming from the body and then telling you to do something with your breathing in order to maximize that big wave of high heart rate on the inb breath and low heart rate on the out breath. >> Yeah, that's that's correct. Yeah. Why why can I not just do some sort of assessment in a lab uh find out what my resonance frequency is? How many breaths per minute? I've done I've done this with with with other other um wearables. And then it says I think mine is uh 4.5 breaths a minute and I think that that's split as 4.9 seconds in, 7.5 seconds out with 0.5 on either end or something. Um, I can just do that and then once I've got my frequency assessment done once, go in like going in for a blood pressure check or getting my teeth done. Go in every six months, find out if my frequency's changed. I don't know whether it does. Why can't I just Why can't I just do that? >> Yeah. Yeah. So, you're saying go do that and then utilize it as an intervention or >> just count count to five and then count down or or um make a track on chatt that gets me to breathe in and breathe out at that sort of a pace. Is it does it not lock in in that kind of way? If I found my frequency, is that not always my frequency? >> Yeah, it's a great question. The the answer to this is that you could 100% do that. Like you could actually go into a clinician and have them run the full, you know, 12 to 15 minute pole layer protocol, get your resonance frequency rate, tell you kind of like here's your inhalation, exhalation ratio, the timing, and you could do it by yourself. Like you could 100% do that >> because the intervention is in the breathing itself. It's not in the data. >> However, what I think is huge here that goes missing is that it's only as good as if you actually do it. So you actually have to be practicing it. And so many people have a hard time with getting into the habit and discipline of doing something like slow pace or resonance breathing without having a high degree of accountability. Um it's it's so you could you could do it. I haven't met a lot of people that have been that successful and me saying here's your resonance protocol like you whatever go time it in your head and and go do it. I just haven't seen it. Well, this is why guided meditation practices have become so good at keeping people's compliance. >> Yeah. >> You do waking up. I'm using this new one. Uh somebody Shuckman uh Alan Shuckman maybe Ferris put me onto it. It's called The Way. >> The way really cool, lovely single path, an actual path that's sort of drawn out and I thought it was really really fun. So I'm I'm doing that and I've meditated thousands of times. I'm like I'm done with unguided for a bit. I want someone to hold my hand as I go through this. So, I think that you're right. And dude, I mean, I I'm asking you questions that I I'm interested in, but I already believe in the answer to, >> which is you got me on to resonance breathing >> almost a year ago now. And I was using some arm strap thing with a induction charger. And then you sent me out an ohm lamp, which for the people that are listening, there's a lamp in between us on the table. And I told Hubman about this in November of last year, and I I'm completely sold. I think that resonance breathing is probably the next big wave of intervention that we're going to see. We've seen breath work, although it hasn't really, apart from Wimhof, it hasn't fully broken through. If you would say, what's the go-to meditation app? You'd say like headsp space or calm or waking up. What's the go-to breath work app? You go maybe Wimhof or something. So, some breath work has, but as you've kind of identified, it's good for some things, but the data behind it isn't necessarily there. And >> well, it's also getting it's also getting kind of like lumped in there with a lot of woowoo practices right now, unfortunately. Like a lot of people are seeing breath work. It's because so many people's are they're hanging up their shingle and they're saying, "Look at me. I've got this new proprietary best in the cla in-class nervous system coaching breath work practice for you and this is kind of the path for you." And then when I see it, like I was at a conference a couple weeks ago and I they had a breath work practitioner who was up on stage and she [snorts] was speaking about how and the audience was kind of like jing along with it. So maybe I just don't I'm not spiritual enough to understand it. But she kept saying things like with our breathing we create these new realities and holograms of oursel that we can then manifest and then fill in the blank. And everybody's kind of like shaking their head and I'm back there like what are we talking about? Maybe I just [laughter] No, dude. I'm sorry. I'm sorry. You're just the most clinician clinician that ever [laughter] did clinician. It's It's Everybody has been to one of these seminars, at least in Austin, Texas. Everybody's been to them. A lot of people listening in the UK, they're like, "What the [ __ ] are you talking about?" >> Um, I get it, man. You breath work kind of bridges the gap between the psychedelic esoterica. I'm off to do Iaskar in the Amazon people and a business guy that's a bit stressed. Yeah. Or a pregnant mom that heard that breath work is good to sort of chill her out and is this blue collar as they come. Yeah. >> And these two groups of people meet >> at Third Eye Meditation Lounge here in downtown Austin or at Suka Yoga on Alto Street or whatever. And you, it really is a bit of an oil and water situation cuz you're seeing typically the practitioners that have dedicated their lives to teaching it are the ones who have gone down the esoteric rabbit hole a little bit more deeply. We got a great friend Aaron Alexander from the Align podcast. >> I love Aaron. >> Aaron's Aaron's great. >> Yeah, >> Aaron is doing a lot of breath work coaching as far as I can see in Miami at the moment I think. And uh I haven't seen I haven't done any of his stuff live and he's kept it he's pretty sort of evidence-based, but I've seen some of the [ __ ] hats that people wear who attend those classes. I'm like I I know who you are from that [ __ ] hat. [laughter] I can tell I can tell there's too much there's too many [ __ ] corks hanging from it. You've got too many beads on. >> Um and that's fine. That's kind of their >> thing in their world. But I understand them. It's it's good when you talk about functionality or I guess um how do you say like felt sense of interestingly resonance like I resonate with what that person's saying and that speaks to me in its persona and narrative and mythology and arc right it brings these characters to life we manifest our reality out there strength and resilience and your better self and vibrations and higher and all that stuff >> doesn't necessarily show up in the data and that is what your world is and I think in the same way as we had even though there's been a lot of push back uh a revolution in lifting where evidence-based came through what does the science tell us about the rep range and the pacing and the loading and the frequency and the rest and so on and so forth the same thing is now happening when it comes to breathing >> yes >> and I don't know of any data apart from the stuff that comes out of resonance breathing that says this is how you breathe in order to enact a trait change over time. Everybody that's tried to when you were a kid and you would breathe in and out really fast, you go, "Ah, I feel a little bit lightheaded." Great. You've just done a state change like congratulations. But in order to be able to get to the trait change, and this is where making claims about holographically manifesting your new vibration reality come into conflict with a little bit of the data. So, uh, >> yeah, I think I I'm I've been doing some form of resonance breathing, low tech and slightly higher tech now, um, for a while. But you are right that the consistency thing is so tough and I think that's why what you guys have done with M and like I said I I mentioned it to human and he he completely agreed that he's like this sounds [ __ ] fantastic. >> Um to be able to give people a way to access pretty advanced tech that what you'd have had to go into a lab to do probably only a decade ago. >> Oh yeah. And it would charge you an arm and a leg. It was it was like I was mentioning before when I I was a resident at the VA. We did this within a pain clinic that I was working in. So we're using using bio feedback and they were very forward thinking. But the people who understood that world world were the clinicians and the academics. And so accessibility to something like that well that was only to veterans. But even in more of like a standard clinic it would cost you so much money to be able to go do that because the clinician it would cost them a lot of money to do it. And now we have accessibility to do it like readily like we made obviously M so that people could have it live anywhere in their environment and do it at any time but also it serves another purpose. >> Do you want to explain what it is? Cuz I I I [ __ ] fell in love with it, dude. And I think it's so cool and thank you for sending me one. It's in kind of still in dark mode. People can keep people can pre-order the the lamps or whatever. But it it's still pretty stealth right now, which I thought was even cooler cuz it made me feel like I was getting access to the new >> Batman utility belt before it was actually uh fully out. But I've been playing with mine and it replaced what I was using previously. Um but yeah, I guess explain kind of what it is that you've done because I think it's really cool. Yeah. So, we are, I guess, in still in a bit of a dark mode because we won't be shipping out anything until the the latter half of this year, probably early Q3, so in August or so. Uh, but for now, we are taking pre-orders at M.health. But the lamp in and of itself, so I like to think about this as we were trying to reduce as many barriers as we possibly can that caused friction for people not to not do it. So, for instance, like with all the other stuff that you used before, you had to have the device that you put on, whether it was a chest strap or or an arm band, wristw wearable, open up the phone, make sure like for the love of God, please Bluetooth connect, right? That was the problem. You had to make sure all and there was all these friction points and when something went arry, >> then it's going to lead to what? It's going to lead to disregulation and then attrition. So, you're like, throw it in. So, it's going to meet the graveyard of all the other wearables that you have in your shelf. So, and then the other component too is that what are you looking at the whole time you're doing BOF feedback on a phone >> watching your phone and how much do we need to really disconnect from our phone nowadays? Like we're so inundated. When I think about my phone, I don't associate that with something that is intended to help me downregulate and relax. >> That's why I can't read, dude. I was on a plane and I had the book that I wanted to read. Dan Jones just put me onto it. It's called A Swim in a Pond in the Rain. [ __ ] sick. So, it teaches you how to read Russian literature. So, there's a single page of a short story from Czechov or some other sort of legendary Russian writer and then it explains how to do it and I hadn't downloaded it on my Kindle and my Kindle couldn't connect to the Wi-Fi in the United flight and I was like, I'll read it on my phone. I watch my housemate read on his phone all the time. Bro, I'm not reading [ __ ] I had no connection. There was no internet and I still couldn't read on my phone. It's just not the environment for me. And I guess we even talk about sort of digital environments now that oh sorry you had the wrong device in front of you instead of the other device in front of you which is the Kindle instead of the laptop instead of the phone. But we are just habituated I am habituated into my behavior. >> Yeah. >> On these devices and when I'm on that I'm thinking [snorts] about swiping up and moving stuff like I'm not I'm not in the mood. I I agree and I did enjoy doing the resonance stuff, but even that the previous versions of it were just locking you into a frequency that had previously been tested. >> Correct. Yeah. >> Correct. And this actually kind of to to call back to a previous question that you had that I actually don't think we answered is that you had asked does resonance frequency change over time? Like do you need to go get retested with resonance frequency? And the answer is is that initially it was thought that it was a pretty fixed characteristic, but now that we're actually like looking at more of the nuances of resonance frequency, we actually see that it can dynamically change across time and across context. So if you're breathing at said 4 and a half breaths per minute, which which you mentioned was your resonance rate, like it may have been at the time of the testing that you did it, but what if you know you left and the next day it's 4.897. Well, it doesn't sound like a big change, but what we know in the world of BOF feedback, and this is the type of breathing that I really want to hone in on is that precision always beats effort and intention when it comes to breathing. >> Right? So, if you were continuing to breathe at 4.5, but it's actually 4.8, even though you're not that far off, because you're not doing it precisely, a lot of the gains aren't occurring no matter how hard you try, how frequently you do it. >> Yeah. And it's not to say that you wouldn't have gains. It just wouldn't. You're not optimizing the gain. You're not going to gain as much of a robust or significant. >> Fragile is if you get it on the nose of the right frequency, are we talking about a significant difference to being a little bit off? >> So, >> is it a bit of a knife edge in terms of that? >> It depends on the person. Like I have seen some people that if I were to have them, let's say, breathe at five breaths per minute versus 5.2 breaths per minute, we could have a 50% difference. 100% difference in heart rate variability. So precision matters. I mean even so even with them breathing at 5.2 when their resonance rate was 5.0, they're still going to have net positive benefits. Slow pace breathing regardless of whether or not me you're measuring it has net positive benefits. But do we want to optimize those gains for that longer term trait change? That is where precision is going to win. And that's where M comes in because we're not running you through like it's it's a bit annoying to have someone say, "Okay, well, I want to know what my resonance frequency is. Now I've got to sit down and do this 12 to 15 minute test where I do these two-minute trials of breathing at different rates and then we'll see kind of what heart rate varity looks like." Like it's a bit of a it's a bit of a pain to do >> and then hope that it doesn't change over time. >> Exactly. And then also too, it's just like when someone wants to use a product that's intended to help as an intervention to calm their nervous system down, they just want to use it right away. So they they just want to lock in. So a lot of people just say, "Well, I'm just going to breathe the six breaths per minute because that's easy. 5 seconds in, 5 seconds out, or four in, six out." Whereas what M is doing is it is built with a immensely sophisticated algorithm. If I do say so myself, >> you wrote the [ __ ] algorithm, [laughter] dude. Don't don't fate yourself on this [ __ ] podcast. >> I know. I know. I know. Okay, so scratch that. It's just a really cool device. Uh so the the way this works is obviously and for people who are watching there's a stone that lives on top and once you pick up that stone that is it's a it's a really good hand feel. So I mean it's nice and heavy and it's also warm. Have you noticed that? Like it'll it'll actually feel warm and it's got a sensor in it, a PPG or photolasmography sensor in it that when you hold it against your palm immediately it's starting to look at all the dynamic characteristics of your nervous system changing in real time. So looking at heart rate, looking at heart rate variability, and it's starting to map it, and it's starting to look at kind of those unique characteristics. At the same time, the lamp will start to oscillate just in an up and down direction. So as the lamp goes up, that's as that's you inhaling. So you're supposed to inhale with the timing of the lamp going up. And as the light goes down, you're exhaling. And during that time, within the first few breaths, because we're looking at the unique characteristics of how your nervous system is shifting dynamically at that time to that breathing pace, we start to filter that data through our algorithm and start to pace you at your resonance rate. So you don't have to sit there and do a whole 12 15 minute program. We're looking at it and it's not just saying, "Oh, this is person's uh respiration rate or their resonance frequency rate is six breaths per minute, so 55, just throw it on 55." It's saying, "No, we see it six breaths per minute, but we want uh because of the characteristics of how their nervous system is changing, their inhalation is going to be 4.276 seconds long, and their exhalation is going to be, you know, 5.834. I didn't do the math right there, but it's probably pretty close, actually." And we're going to take that all into consideration. What are we doing there? We're trying to maximize the output of those beautiful slow sinosodal rhythms of your heart rate that we know are dynamically changing how your nervous system is responding making it more efficient at [snorts] any given time. And we're watching it across the session. >> And if there are these kind of small minute changes that your nervous system is telling us, we will adjust the rate >> within the session. >> Within the session, we'll adjust the ratio of the breathing. I've I've noticed that it does that if I sort of grab it, especially if I do a long a long session of sort of 20 or 30 minutes, >> it will start speeding up and slowing down like the the frequency of frequency will continue to change, which is pretty cool. So, I guess one thing that a lot of people will be thinking is I already do breath work in one form or another and it makes me feel calm. Does that not suggest is is feeling calm not a proof of regulation? >> Mhm. in breath work because I usually feel chilled and actually sometimes a little bit spacey when I do resonance breathing. >> Uh but I don't always necessarily feel super calm. I don't maximize calm. I've done breath work sessions that have made me feel more calm in the moment. So is calm proof of regulation when we're talking about other breath work practices or this? >> Yeah, I never refer to HRV BOF feedback or resonance breathing as a relaxation tool. And that might be people like scratching their head like wait what? But I thought the intention was to help >> just 90 minutes on [ __ ] becoming more calm. >> Relax. Yes. The this is going kind of going back to HRV as being a byproduct number, right? Resonance breathing producing a sense of relaxation for most people most sessions is the byproduct of aligning your nervous system. And so the intention isn't that I come in with resonance and and with bio feedback I never come in with the intention that hey this is my opportunity to relax. I come in with it with this this is my opportunity to train. >> I am training. That is my gym right there. That is my nervous system gym today. I'm hitting it. I'm getting in the reps because we know that this has a wide systemic effect on how I respond now and how I'll respond later and how it's translative to how I experience the world after this. M >> and so for me when I do it slowing my breathing down inherently typically is going to make me produce a sense of calm. You may even feel sleepy. This is something that we use like with absolute rest Andy Galpin's company like we use this with everybody. Everybody does HRV BOF feedback before bed because it can produce that huge level of veagal arousal or what we would just say is like veagal stimulation. That break is being put onto the nervous system which can help you wind down and actually can improve so many metrics as it relates to sleep. This is a well wellfound and wellstied thing that we can we can do. But the intention again isn't like I'm going to experience relaxation. Maybe maybe you will. Right now I'm working on timing. I'm working on precision. I'm working on training that nervous system to align so that when I leave this controlled environment that I've trained on and I go out into the real world where I don't have this little thing, I want my nervous system to kick into high gear when [ __ ] hits the fan. If you struggle to stay asleep because your body gets too hot or too cold, this is going to help. Eightlee just released their brand new Pod 5 which includes the world's first temperature regulating duvet. 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That's ei.com/modernwisdism and modernwisdom a checkout. Would it not be good for us to just always breathe at our resonance frequency? What would happen if all I if I managed to do so many sessions that I would just walk about all day doing 4.5 in, 7.9 out? I find myself doing it just like instinctively like actually when I encounter let's say I'm like in traffic or whatever I actually will notice because of my immense amount of training doing this because I do practice what I preach. I use this every day for a very long time and I have the app to prove it. >> You say that Brian Johnson's the current power user of this thing. >> Brian is killing it. I wish I could say that Chris Williamson was Chris. I'm doing okay. >> Brian's Brian's killing. >> Can you say Can you say how many hours a day he's doing? I don't know. I don't want to get in trouble. >> Okay. You think that's [ __ ] >> He's doing a lot. He's doing He's doing He's doing a lot a lot of time on the on the lamp. Yeah. Which doesn't surprise me. >> Yeah. You >> Well, when you think about uh the areas that he's covering at the moment, one of the things I haven't heard him talk about much is moving it across into the more nervous system come psychological side of things. Uh and it doesn't make it doesn't surprise me that he's managed to find an evidence-based highly metric uh sort of driven solution for something that could be a bit like [ __ ] like esoteric which you watch. I mean he did do psilocybin on uh live stream. So >> he did which was pretty fun to watch actually. >> I didn't watch it. I >> you should watch at least some highlight and clips. >> I didn't sh Okay, cool. >> Cuz it's like I feel like it's a aspect of Brian Johnson's personality where you're like I didn't know that was in there. Oh, I' I've seen enough aspect of his personality to know what's in the right. He's I Brian's a sweetie. I think he's fantastic and he's a good friend. >> That's great. >> Um, >> okay. I have a question. It Let's say that someone is under chronic stress and that's caused them to have a disregulated nervous system. Does that not suggest that because it was top down that caused the issue that they need to go top down to fix it? M >> they should go CBT, act therapy, psychotherapy, uh cognitive reframing. You have been in a situation with work or your kid or your finances or whatever for 3 years and it has just sent you haywire and now you're trying to intervene. The issue was caused this way >> from top to bottom. >> Mhm. >> But the intervention that's being suggested now is to go bottom to top. Can you talk about because you said before psychological stress is one of the biggest contributors to this. >> Yeah. >> How do you come to think about the relationship between intervening with nervous system work directly with stuff like resonance breathing and what's happening psychologically? Does that make sense? >> Yeah, it makes sense. The one thing to kind of also question here, most of it is coming top down, but there are some actual theories of emotion that are actually looking more at bottom up. So there's James Lang theory of emotion that actually says that we encounter an incident. So let's say we counter an event, an external event, and actually our physiology is the first thing to respond. Um so we're kind of built and ingrained with this um with this like unconscious kind of scanning of the environment to determine threats. That's really not driven by our cognition. That's just really primal. And it's the thing that when we see the snake that's lying there, maybe we haven't been taught to be afraid of the snake, but something inside of our of our physiology says no danger, like don't don't go there. And so then we receive that signal from our body up. So it's bottom up. And then now we're starting to make a cognitive appraisal with that thing that we just experienced. >> Turn that into a modern example story form. >> Oh, sure. Yeah, sure. So I can give you a clinical example or a performance example. Which one? Which one? Okay, let's go both. So, clinical example. Um, so this would be someone uh for instance who is experiencing Oh, yeah. Please do a session. Get get into some >> You're doing a long answer, so I'm going to do this for a little while. >> All right. So, clinical example. So, let's say someone who experienced like some actual trauma. Um, so my background is I've worked historically with operators, special operators in the DoD and also with veterans. uh for these individuals um you know they're encountering so many different types of external events that put them readily on high alert as they should be they should readily be on high alert. So they experience kind of all these things that they uh know should be associated with danger and so therefore like engage kind of this protective mechanism to kind of fight off kind of what they have tune in lock in. So I had a had a veteran kind of back in the day when I was working within the VA and he has had all these experiences kind of like within kind of war. So he was over in the battle of Fallujah kind of like the early times of us being over um you know in the Middle East um during the during um Iraq and Afghanistan war. And he came back and he was like I know that my nervous system is you just got into a state of resonance. So, I do want to comment before going on with my story that the lamp is now blue indicative that Chris Williamson during our communicating just now or me communicating a little bit one-sided got into a state of resonance and now that I'm bringing it to his intention and calling it out. He's exiting resonance. [laughter] >> [ __ ] did he kick me out? God, >> I kicked you out because I brought his attention to it. But know anytime you go into blue there, you're in a state of physiological resonance. Your nervous system is responding and firing on all cylinders in the best way possible. >> This is great. It's like story time with nervous system training. You're telling me about this guy. >> Yeah. >> And we haven't gotten to the good meat of it. So, exposure to all these things. So, he comes into clinic and he says, "Uh, you know, I've noticed that like every single time like I go out to drive, like I I lock up. The entire body locks up. I can't think straight. I get tunnel vision. Like all of these things are occurring kind of within my my nervous system." He didn't coin it that way because he didn't know to use the language nervous system, but he said everything just feels really disruptive. And it's gotten to the point now where like I actually have a phobia of getting in the car and driving anywhere. Like I just I can't do it. So that's caused me to be socially isolative. I'm a hermit. I just kind of live by myself, do my own thing. The only time I come here is when I get a taxi because Uber wasn't a thing back then. Am I aging myself here? And he would go to the to the VA to to receive help. Okay. So then when we started to unpack and explore like what was going on here, basically what he would say is that he would walk out and he would have he would just he wouldn't even actually like be looking at a car, but he would know that he was kind of like moving towards a car and all of a sudden his physiology would just ramp up. Heart rate would increase. Everything would just kind of like become immensely excitable. And so yeah, okay. Well, we have well, there's this association that he's making, but we don't know like what the association is is why it's there. And so, as we kind of backpedalled and unpacked a little bit of things, cuz as you do in therapy, which I am a psychologist, so of course like that's kind of part of what what I do is that we realized that he was making just these really broad associations with hitting IEDs kind of out when he would be in Humvees during his time over and associating that with the car. But that wasn't something that was cognitively manifesting. It was really his physiology that would ramp up and send that signal directly to kind of to his brain and then he would get into this tunnel vision highly sympathetic mode and not really kind of know what to do in that moment. So it would be like well I'll just avoid I'll go inside. I won't do like anything because that keeps me safe. Then that becomes obviously a really vicious cycle. So [snorts] he's experiencing kind of like all this flood of uh changes within the physiology that's sending this signal to the brain that this is a dangerous environment. This dangerous environment is now connected with previous experiences. So I experienced kind of all these nasty things that happened over in the Middle East and so now for I've created this vicious physiological cycle. And so this is where like yes, we want to leverage something like top down cognitive processing or therapy with him and that's important, but actually starting from the body up and helping him just learn how to regulate that physiological response was the best place to start because trying to change the mind with the mind, I've heard Hubman talk a lot about this and I really agree with Hubberman on this. He says trying to change the mind with the mind is a bit like tugof-war. It's very difficult. you can kind of get into these nasty impasses and there's always butdding heads, but changing the mind with the body tends to be a lot more efficient and it is the thing that can bridge the gap and segue us into doing the top- down processing because all the things that you mentioned before, cognitive behavioral therapy, ACT, all of these evidence-based psychotherapies are immensely valuable tools. Like they are 100% needed and they are efficacious. But if we can use something like this to augment what we're doing there and also allow us to open up from a nervous system perspective. So this is why I might get a tiny bit esoteric actually which is not typically my thing. But if we can leverage a tool like this let's say before a therapy session to open up the nervous system to receiving and saying okay I'm in an environment with my psychologist or my therapist. This is a very safe environment because I'm communicating this with my body with my nervous system. This might be a really unique and amazing way to start really transitioning from just purely talk therapy and psycho psychotherrapeutics to now going more into using psychophysiology. >> Well, I I I think the the fasc Thank you. That's why I need my [ __ ] breath coach to [laughter] >> um it makes a lot of sense to me even though it sounds kind of counterintuitive. You have a sense in the body that gets shot up to your brain. I am not safe. This is not good. For instance, let's say that you were in a relationship and something about the way that your partner showed up made you feel unsafe regularly. You don't really know what. It's like what is it that they've done? Maybe they took a bit longer to text back. Maybe they didn't put a kiss at the end of the message. Maybe they maybe they seemed a little bit more distracted. Maybe they something something about them. The way that they show up, your conception of them makes you just feel a bit activated or agitated >> and then you start to tell yourself stories about what I don't I don't feel good. It's like why don't you feel good? I'm not really too sure. So you have some sense that has hit you that's kind of like the relational equivalent of a snake, right? That perhaps something pattern from your past. Mom also seemed to be a little bit distant and and you had fears of threats of abandoning or you feel like you need to perform in order to win your partner's love and that was just the same way that your grandma or your father or your school teachers or some story that you've told yourself not even from childhood. You don't even need to go back to childhood. Like some part of your worldview has a fisher in it. And this rel relationship with your boss or your new coworker or the [ __ ] bus driver, whoever it is, is getting to you in a manner that seems to sort of really pierce your programming >> and that is making you feel away. Well, you're going to the only place you can experience that is in your brain. >> Mhm. >> And you go, well, I'm now going to start to tell myself a story about why I feel this way. >> Mhm. And that the first time that I heard that it makes complete sense about how emotions do move in both directions. Like I can absolutely manifest myself by thinking about stuff >> completely uh imaginary situation, right? Allow me to to just come up with this this potential catastrophe or good good thing and it it go top down. But I can also feel something in the body and it shoot up and tell myself. >> Great example of this. I was working New Year's Eve eight years ago and I know this because my business partner text me about it over uh Christmas in Manchester and I was partway through the night and I was being so [ __ ] catty with all of the staff. I was like, you know, there's 20, 25, 18 to 23 year olds that are working for me in Manchester and I've driven down there and it's New Year's Eve and [ __ ] I'm working, but I'm a club promoter. I've done it for 15. I didn't have a New Year's Eve for 15 years. Like, fine, I this is my job. This is what I signed up for. >> I'm in different city and we've sold out and we've made some good money and it's whatever, whatever. I was being so [ __ ] short with everyone. And I get a text from my business partner and he said, "Um, I'm locked in the disabled toilet at Riverside," which was the venue that we used to run in Newcastle. I'm like, "I'm 150 miles away. Have you lost the key? Has someone else locked you in there? Is there a a [ __ ] shooting going? Like, what is this?" Uh, turned out that he'd got Nora virus. He'd got a 24-hour stomach bug. Brutal. And uh we'd been to his son's first birthday party in between Christmas and New Year. Turned out that that was a super spreader event for [ __ ] Nora virus. I'd been super short with all of the staff that had been on site with me. And it turned out that I also had norivirus. I was about to an hour and a half later feel nausea and feel like I wanted to spend the rest of the day in the bathroom. >> But my behavior had been I'm being short. Why am I so irritable? I'm feeling this sort of a way. Like if that doesn't say that you can have a sensation that I literally didn't have an explanation for until I started to do the [ __ ] Sherlock Holmes corkboard thing of piecing together. We went to the kid's birthday and he's in the toilet and oh my god, this means I'm going to be in and I'm 150 mi away from home and I have cream leather seats in my [ __ ] BMW. This is going to be >> uh sure enough, I had told myself a story about what it meant. >> Mhm. Well, maybe it's because this thing wasn't organized with the DJ booth or he didn't bring his microphone or I found out that the [ __ ] DJ that night wasn't going to do the countdown because nobody had prepped him that he needed to use the mic and he was being a purist and I was like, I guess I'm going to have to [ __ ] countdown from 10 at my own event while I'm trying to hotwire the pyrochnics using two 9volt battery. It was a [ __ ] nightmare. But I told myself all of these stories about this little adventure that I'd been on. >> Yeah. >> That had nothing to do with how I was feeling. >> Yeah. Yeah. >> And it was exclusively because I was going to [ __ ] my pants in 2 hours time. >> Yeah. >> And uh yeah, that sense completely tracks. >> It's it's a method of self-preservation. I'm trying to put together a piece of your story, hell, kind of like you creating that uh is is a bit of self-preservation. But may maybe there's something that I could link there. But we all we're we're doing it all as a method to make sure that we continue our survival and pass on our gene pool. >> Oo. Uh do you know latitude? You know what latitude is? >> The the sort of emotion of being unwell, being sick, like physically sick. >> And uh I did this >> episode with Diana Fleman and she was telling me about Latitude and some of the interesting elements of latitude are um you want to be around friends and family more. You don't want to try uh new foods. You prefer bland foods. >> If you've got the flu or something, >> bread and toast like butter on toast and and cups of tea. My Britishness is showing here. >> So showing >> um uh wanting to be looked after by mom or partner or whatever. Um well, why? Because if I try some new food that might have pathogens in. >> If I try and make friends with someone, they might not be able to look after me. So you have the these behaviors that are impacted by your physiological state, by your medical state, right? Your sort of current health system is >> leaking out of you >> into your behavior. Yeah. >> And uh that's a longer version, a more protracted version of what I had. >> Yeah. >> And the a less protracted version of what your special operator had. >> Sure. >> Which is I have pattern matched this thing with another felt sense. >> And now I've begun to tell myself a story. Paul Ky told me this thing about how uh people that have travel anxiety especially if you've been in a serious travel a road accident you can retrospectively go back and tell yourself oh I never like driving actually never I never enjoyed you could have loved driving but the narrative gets smoother >> for cognit cognitive dissonance >> 100% >> 100% so yeah this sort of I don't even know what you'd call it this birectional um nature of emotions them moving both bottom up and top down and it makes complete sense to me as well to think well if you can get your nervous system into a state where it feels really good and calm and regulated >> uh although maybe not super calm but at least resonant >> yes >> um you would be a little bit more open to maybe talking about things that are difficult >> yeah can you imagine a world and again obviously I'm very biased in my statement that I'm about to make because I have something to make from from m in this in this process but I can imagine a world where every single psychotherrapeutic session starts and ends with some resonance breathing or bio feedback. And again, let's take M out of out of even the discussion. It doesn't have to be M, but just starting with resonance breathing as a way to open up to what we what what we're about to encounter in terms of our discussion because for many psychotherrapeutic discussions, they're very difficult process and to get through. >> And then maybe the back end is saying, okay, well, now we're releasing you back out into the world. We've gotten our 50-minute session >> safe again. >> Safe again. use time to assimilate all that information and carry on. >> It makes me think about kind of like micro doing ketamine or MDMA, >> ketamine assisted psychotherapy or MDMA assisted psychotherapy. This is resonance assisted psychotherapy. >> Yeah, that's right. >> Um, and what you're trying to do is just give a little bit of a safety cue. Uh, and I suppose that's in large part what MDMA is trying to do, right? Opening the heart up. It's you can talk about this thing without reliving it in the same sort of scary dangerous way. You're being comforted by someone. Okay. So for resonance breathing, what is a good starting point that's realistic to get good progress? Like how much, how often, how long, what's the protocol? >> Yeah, if you want state change, if you're like, hey, I need something right now. Uh just a couple minutes. I mean, even a minute to three minutes will get you a really good solid effect. What we one of the things that we know is that resonance breathing in and of itself it's efficacy is so immensely high that we can safely say that every time you do it you have a net positive benefit from in terms of a nervous system perspective. It's a nice little gentle hug. >> We know that when we get to around that 10 minute mark and as much as 10 to 20 minutes that's actually kind of like the sweet spot for starting to really entrain the nervous system. you had mentioned ago a little you mentioned a little bit ago what if we just walked around and constantly breathed at our resonance rate and it's like in theory I love that idea however what I will say and that hasn't been tested for obvious reasons but what I will say is that the research does demonstrate that going above about 20 minutes of resonance breathing like the return on investment like it starts to it starts to drop it's not there's no delotterious or detrimental effect but you're not gaining any more significant appreciable gain like from doing longer than 20 minutes. So I always tell people the sweet spot is per day 10 to 20 minutes and that is not 10 to 20 minutes compounded over the day. It's doing sessions like the com the compounding like if I did 10 minute uh two sorry five twominut sessions equals 10 minutes. >> You're not going to receive as nearly as much of the longitudinal benefits as you will with a singular 10-minute session. We do have research the because >> the nervous system doesn't start to really entrain in a single session and make those larger scale scale barrel reflex changes until about minute 8 to 12. A minute 8 to 12 is when we start to see them making those more robust changes. It'll change the nervous system will make significant changes before then but the adaptations don't occur until that point in time. So that isn't say to say oh hey if I get an ohm or I get do some other breathing practice that I should never do anything less than 10 minutes not at all I do it all the time like in between meetings I'll do three or five minutes is that having necessarily the compounding effect not as much as the 10-minute sessions or the 15 or the 20 minute sessions so I tell people like if you really want to get the effects and this is coming more from the literature and bio feedback >> 10 minutes done >> four to six times a week >> and if you do that and as little as four weeks, but probably more around 8 to 10 weeks, >> you're going to actually see significant train changes. Now, that can result in I look at my Whoop and my baseline heart rate variability is increased. I'm not using that as like my marker or my goalpost, um kind of like my source of truth, but we see that quite often in the research, in the literature, we do see that baseline heart rate variability >> for people that practice in that type of protocol can actually see pretty vast improvements. What I'm actually looking at are a couple of things. First, I'm looking to say subjectively, do I feel more resilient? I think that goes that goes missed, man. Like in the day of again biometric hypervigilance where we're all like so data driven and using it as our decision-m, we're becoming increasingly poor at checking in subjectively. How do I feel? I wake up in the morning. Yeah, my wearable says that I'm in the red and I feel and it says I'm a 29 out of 100, but how do I actually feel? Like bypassing that is a huge mistake. So, we know in the literature that people that do this type of protocol, one of the main things that they see is they see better emotional regulation. Okay? So, maybe my fuse isn't as short as it once was. Maybe I have a little bit more lenience like in this on this in this business call or working with, you know, Deborah down the hall. She doesn't piss me off as easily or maybe she does piss me off, but I don't fly off the cuff with her. Uh they see better sleep. We actually see improvements in sleep metrics and markers. Uh we see uh more resilience to kind of other things like recovery. we actually see that we improve things like physiological recovery. So for instance, like I know a lot of people at a lot of the pro athletes that I work with every single time that they are working out or they'll do like a training session, they're downregulating their nervous system with M for about 10 minutes or so like post that session. That's the protocol. So let's say this is someone who is a a high performer creator of some kind. Maybe they give presentations at work. Maybe they're a salesperson. Maybe they're trying to learn something. They're a student. How would you stack resonance breathing with skill acquisition, practice, game time? Are you doing it before? It feels like I I'm not convinced that it's great for everything. If I'm an NFL player, I probably just want to be listening to Creed before I go out. I don't necessarily want I want to be like hyped. I don't know if I want to be doing this. >> It depends on their level of autonomic dysregulation. So, for instance, like I had an NHL player that I worked with and he had an amazing player, great player. >> He told me about this guy but just could not control his game nerves >> significantly. Like he would get >> in practice. He was like the generational talent that couldn't do it on the ice. >> Amazing. But when you get out on the ice, one bad touch, one bad whatever and the brain goes, the nervous system goes, heart rate fluctuates, can't sleep the next night, like proverating on things. And so for that individual, I'm going to structure a protocol that looks quite different for him than I am going to be, let's say, someone who's like, "Man, I I I need to get amped up." Because I have worked with multiple MLB players, like pitchers especially, who the day that they're pitching, some of them are like, I I'm just not feeling it. There's like this lag of energy. Like I need to like amp myself up. I'm not going to have them probably do as much resonance breathing before they go out, >> but they might do it afterward in order to bring themselves back down. >> Exactly. Well, because they're on a bunch of, you know, whatever, nicotine and whatever else, >> seeds and whatever else. >> Yeah, exactly. >> Um, okay, let's add in now. Let's say that somebody wanted to by the end of 2026, I want to make as many great improvements to my nervous system and also my HRV. I'm I'm just gaming the HRV game, right? I want to >> piss all over everyone else in my Whoop group. What would you structure as a pretty easily compliant broadspectctrum protocol that includes the cardiorespiratory work? >> What would that look like? Something that's relatively easy to stick to but will have it'll capture most of the gains including the uh resonance breathing and then also looking at any other um contributing factors. What would you do? The first thing that you can do is send a text message to all those in your Whoop group and say, "Hey guys, let's stop comparing our HRV." >> Yeah. You should actually have a beer before you go to bed on a night time. I've heard the humans been talking about it. >> Exactly. Yeah. There's huge proponents of at least like two to three beers right before you go to sleep. Uh so the the first thing that I would say, and again I'm trying to think about what are the best levers that you can pull to kill the most birds with one stone. And literally it would probably be just two things that that come to mind now because I don't want to add I could I could create a protocol for you where I add I have created protocols for you where I can add layers of complexity where there's tons of things but I think for the everyday individual if you focused on two things which are both modifiable factors like we talked about nervous system regulation earlier [snorts] I think that you're going to get the most bang for your buck. I think the first one is exercise. I think that enhancing cardiorespiratory fitness and getting more on a path to increase things like V2 max and again like you just go listen to any of Tia's stuff where he talks about you know improving you know the base base of the pyramid through zone 2 training and high-intensity training as well on the top like just listen to all his of his stuff. I mean you're improving cardiorespiratory fitness which is improving cardiovascular output and therefore lowering resting heart rate and you're going to improve HRV that way. If we're just thinking about improving HRV, [snorts] is that then equate to improving things like parasympathetic braking or veagal breaking or veagal tone? Potentially, we do have some research to suggest that exercise in and of itself is a great way to actually exercise the veagal break. So that way, again, we're kind of killing two birds with one stone. We should be exercising and improving cardiorespiratory fitness no matter what. And the second component, again this is my bias 100% coming out, is that we need to have dedicated time and practice where we are in a controlled environment and we're downregulating our nervous system. So for many people meditation is really helpful for them and I don't want to you know poo poo on meditation. I think it's a great practice. I actually think that HRV bio feedback that we've been talking about is an amazing thing to combine with mindfulness and meditation. I actually think they work very well in tandem with one another. >> But the thing about meditation is is that creating a practice that's 15 30 minutes a day that's maybe not as much structured, it's just really hard to create good behavioral habits and routines around that. So for most people I would say then that's where I would turn to and again bias coming out something like M where it's like we're actually spending dedicated time in a controlled environment to train our nervous system four times a week at 10 minutes you know per per day even as little as 10 minutes if you want to do more than that do more than that like for instance I aim for 10 for 15 minutes of resonance a day not 15 minutes of practice 15 minutes of my time in blue so when you turned it blue during our discussion a minute ago I want 15 minutes where holding myself in that. Now, that doesn't have to be 15 sustained minutes. I'm not sure if I've ever done 15 minutes of sustained resonance, but 15 minutes cumulative and I normally do 10-minute sessions or other small sessions. So, again, if we had to kind of come back, that's me like maximizing output of the Vegas nerve. If we're just saying, well, what's the minimal dose that somebody can do to get started? I think four times a week, 10 minutes a day, so that's 40 minutes that you have to devote to the nervous system gym every week, >> will get you a lot of the benefit. and certainly provide a good foundation. >> When you've looked at the evidence around resonance breathing, >> what does it suggest about what people should be doing with their minds? >> Good question. Have you ever noticed like when you're using it, have you ever noticed that when your mind starts to go and wander? What happens? >> Yeah. >> I've been in the blue so much and then all of a sudden like I will catch my mind go. Here's the great thing. >> It is kind of mindfulness >> 100%. And you have to be mentally attuned to what's going on. Otherwise, it's like the nervous system knows. It's like you're feeding it information. If the mind's going, then it says, "Well, we need to again sympathetic nervous system, we need to mobilize energy so we can process all that thinking." And so then therefore, >> it's pulled you out of >> it's pulled you out, right? >> It's pulled you out. So, so there's a direct connection there. That's why I say that meditation and mindfulness is immensely important to include as a layer of what you're doing with BOF feedback. Otherwise, I think you're going to miss out on some of the other potential mental attunement benefits. Well, I think one of the uh risks that you guys are going to have as this becomes bigger and there will be based on how good I think this product is, I think there's going to be like a million copycats within the space of a couple of years. Um, one of the things I've noticed because you don't need to look at your phone. Again, for the people that are just listening, it's like a a stone. You hold the stone in your hand and you breathe in time with the stone and the stone can just vibrate. But what it means is you don't need to look at anything because you've linked the lamp in with the Wi-Fi. So you never actually have to open your phone again. >> So I have it next to my bed and it means that when I'm watching a movie I'll be I watch Die Hard because it's the greatest Christmas movie of all time. Grab the stone and I'm there for >> 30 minutes 40 minutes but I'm you know kneede in Die Hard and I care about Bruce Willis and Alan Rickman. So, I'm not mentally with my breath work. And I do think that that's going to be something that people are probably going to get into doing because it sounds great. Oh my god, I can train my Vegas nerve while I watch a movie. Like, that is fantastic, but how many of the gains are you losing >> by not focusing where you're supposed to be? Um, but then also maybe if you were to look at the literature for this, I would love someone to do a study to say, well, >> this is a more real world applicable situation, >> which is that your nervous system is doing one thing while your mind is doing another. So, can we chew, walk, and uh chew, walk, and gum at the same time? Can we chew gum and walk at the same time? um are we able to allow our front brain to be focused on that while our nervous system is trying to regulate from this thing at the side? >> It's a great question. I mean that's a great research study that could be done there. Well, what I will say though and I go back to the statement that I made before is that I will take precision over effort and intention any day. It doesn't mean that intention and effort with precision don't yield the greatest benefits, but precision is key here because we know that the nervous system like your barrel reflex response and your respiratory sinus arrhythmia, so the characteristics that are contributing mostly to HRV, they actually don't care. They don't give a [ __ ] about your intention. They don't care. As long as you're breathing within rhythm, they're doing its work. They're aligning. Now, if you want to maximize that benefit, that's when we put them all together and that's where [clears throat] we can start to layer mindfulness. So again, just to to make sure I don't get misqued here, mindfulness and meditation matter like they're really important for what we do. I think it's great to layer on them, but is it necessary or are we required to utilize that in order to have some appreciable nervous system benefit with through HIV bio feedback? The answer is no. Okay. So to recap, you would say some zone 2 work 150 minutes a week, maybe 100 to 150 minutes. >> I think a TSA typically says around 120 to 150 minutes. Yes. About >> per week. And if you can get some Norwegian 4x4, maybe one session a week, something like that of top end work to get the the zone 5 stuff in. And then between four and six sessions of between 10 and 20 minutes of resonance breathing y >> that is done in a focused manner. Um that together should be from a modifiable factor. I mean this is stop drinking so much [ __ ] salt. Like element's fantastic but you can't have 10 a day. You should be having like two or three a day at most. >> Blood volume is a huge um contributor or influencer to heart rate variability. So you don't want to be dehydrated but you also don't want to overhydrate. >> Um that will build you about as good in terms of HIV gain. The thing that we haven't talked about is how this impacts sleep. [laughter] >> When you were mentioning all that the one thing that was coming to my mind is that I was thinking yes as long as sleep. >> So talk to me about because you work with Andy Galpin's company Absolute Rest which is [ __ ] awesome. Yeah. um weave sleep into this big pattern that we've created so far. We've got this this massive tapestry of of insights about how the nervous system works and what HIV is and what resonance frequency does and how the barrel reflex and what about sleep and how does how does that guy work in with all of this? >> Sleep is is the canary in the coal mine. When we start to have significant disruptions in sleep, sleep efficiency, the overall quality of our sleep, when all of those things are happening, it's a signal. It's a signal that the nervous system is experiencing a significant amount of dysregulation. And so if I had to think about like a a pyramid of health and wellness interventions or or not even interventions but a pyramid of health and wellness factors or variables that people should focus on if they want to have the greatest longevity and overall sense of health and wellness. The bottom or the base of that pyramid without a doubt I don't think there's a close second is sleep >> because we know that sleep its intention is reparation. It is repairing the nervous system. We can we receive insults all throughout the day, right? So whether it's psychological insults or physiological insults, there's insults that we are incurring at all times and our nervous system is doing the best it can. It's like 24 by7 security. Like it's trying to attend to everything, but it gets beat up. And especially as we experience more chronic stressors day in day out, week in week out, month after month after year, decade after decade, now we've got all this compounding stress that's kind of living kind of within the nervous system. Its thermostat is really stiff and stuck in a direction that we don't want to have. And so therefore, it starts to impact things like our sleep and our ability to actually sustain longer, deeper sleep. And so we can leverage this is why heart rate variability is typically given to us on wearables while we're asleep. And that's because when we get really good data of a process that is intended to repair our nervous system, HRV is telling us, well, is sleep actually helping us to repair the nervous system >> or is there some gap there? So without focusing on sleep, it's like you can do all the breathing you want and it's great. It's going to help and it can actually help improve sleep. tons of literature on resonance breathing and bio feedback and how it can improve sleep. But if you aren't addressing sleep issues at its core uh which can be a wide variety of factors, nervous system dysregulation probably being the foundation of that then like all the other things that you're doing maybe aren't going to have nearly as much of a net positive impact. So we have to start with sleep. >> So is sleep where trait level autonomic regulation sort of shows up the most? Yes, it does. It can show up in your baseline day-to-day behavior. So, in the the ability, let's say for instance, with someone who's got a an immensely flexible autonomic nervous system that they have high barrerow reflex gain, we can actually see that their blood pressure regulation mechanism is really fine-tuned and can and can work really quickly, really efficiently, and really smoothly depending on what they experience. However, in sleep, we're taking out all the external variables of like physiological and psychological insult. So, stress, we're taking all of that out. >> Pretty blank canvas. >> Yep. Blank canvas. And we're saying, okay, here's true baseline. Here's the process where like we are >> working to repair. You can't fake regulation during sleep. >> You cannot because you can't manipulate your breathing during sleep. Even though I did watch a video, breath work guy, who says that he claims that he can get people down to breathing at five breaths per minute while they're sleeping, which is physiologically impossible. If you wake up and your Whoop or your aura says that your respiration rate was five breaths per minute, please go immediately to the ER. Something's wrong. >> Wow. Okay. So it's you're what would people who work on their fitness and their resonance breathing see all of the things being equal over the course of 12 months [sighs and gasps] >> if they're working on it. What I love, so this is again to shamelessly plug Absolute Rest and Andy Galpin's team, they're using a lot more advanced ways of looking at what's happening in the nervous system throughout the night as opposed to like a lot of consumer-based wearables. But that's when you're going from like FDA cleared medical device, we're getting like tons of granularity to like, okay, sampling rates a lot lower. We've got to conserve battery. We're just giving you kind of information that we think could be useful to hopefully drive behavior. So what we saw I kind I want kind of want to explain a gold standard because I think that this is the best way to view it. So like at absolute rest when you're wearing the overnight ring it's a ring called the sleep image ring which again FDA cleared medical device. It's actually looking at the fine finite quite granular highfidelity changes that are occurring in your nervous system through an algorithm called CPC algorithm. It's looking at cardoppulmonary coupling. So, how coupled or in congruence is your breathing within your rest resp uh your breathing and your heart rate when you're at rest. So, at baseline, they should be highly coupled. You should be creating a lot of what I referred to earlier as high frequency power. So, that's what we should see on our chart. So, we'd have like these really tight big blue mountains that we'd want to see that are occurring across the night. When someone is having really poor problems with sleep, and this can be due to sleep disordered breathing. So, let's just say they've got sleep apnnea or they just have an immensely disregulated nervous system, really cannot bounce back from stress, they've got other problems related just to autonomic flexibility. We see that that high frequency coupling is really low. Like, so it looks like they're not getting hardly any restorative sleep. And when they're not getting restorative sleep, they start to experience kind of like this sympathetic burst at night. What we call fragmentation. And you can't pick up fragmentation on like a consumer-based wearable. This is why you got to go to the highfidelity stuff that they have at Absolute Rest, >> which is also why these rings have one night of battery. >> Yeah. Yeah. >> They're sampling what 100 hertz or something? >> Yeah. Oh, it's a I think the sampling rate's a thousand hertz. Um, so it's it's really high >> as opposed to even the best consumer wearables are taking little chunks throughout the day. >> Small small bits. So small what we call epics or just small periods of times. Yeah. And so going back to this, if we see that someone's having a lot of fragmentation at night, so the sympathetic nervous system is starting to kick into high gear, you know, heart rate is bouncing up, we're starting to see kind of like this pattern that we don't want to see when we're at rest. Well, what does that cause us to do? Fragmentation causes us not to get into the deepest stages of like in three sleep. Well, the real restorative stages, it keeps us in very light sleep. And then what does it do? It kicks us out of sleep as well. Causes a lot of wakefulness. So we see people's sleep efficiency which we want to be above 85% start to drop below 85%. We see the night is completely fragmented. So what do we do like at absolute rest what we would do is we would say okay we want to put you on a bio feedback protocol where about 30 minutes before bed we're going to do 10 to 15 minutes of resonance breathing >> and within that kind of time frame the whole idea is that we're downregulating the nervous system acutely to try to ease oursel into sleep to get that good deep restorative sleep and that's what we want to see. So we do that we see that oh yeah first night they did it they did increase a little bit more high frequency power. It's might be only at the beginning of the night and the fragmentation kind of kicked into high gear but we see it start to improve and then they do it week after week after week. And and what's so interesting is that almost every client for absolute rest says that their favorite intervention or the one that they feel like is truly moving the needle aside from like top tier level coaching is heart rate variability bio feedback because it is something that they can see like you can see it's we're not get we're not it's not a guessing game anymore right it's like I see that my nervous system has actually made changes not just am I getting a little bit more of that parasympathetic sleep at the beginning of the night but it's starting to traverse the entire night starting to see fluctuate and not fluctuate but really go across the night and lot less wakeups. >> What are the limits of HRV's usefulness? >> I when people want to use HRV as like a catch-all metric for health, wellness, and longevity, I think that that is immensely poor way to use it because it can't be used that way. I think I mentioned at the beginning of our our our podcast that it's not a vanity metric. It's not something you compare to other people. And we've kind of gotten past that that point. But I think the limit of it is when you start to use it and you say, I'm going to say every single day I'm going to wake up [snorts] and I'm going to look at that number and I'm going to use that number to now drive decision-m in regards to what I do that day in my in my behavior. And the problem that will ultimately arise from that is that again, you're not taking context in into consideration whatsoever. And so now you're making decisions just kind of based off of that and you're not actually breaking bringing in your own subjective experience and subjective feel. So that's that's one. The other limitation I think of HRV is that the way it is being used now is that people are just using a singular metric and they're not actually looking at it in terms of the compilation of metrics that HRV actually is. And so they misuse it because they say, "Well, I'm looking at this one number and I'm either comparing it to something I shouldn't be comparing it as opposed to relative to me, but I'm not looking at all kind of like the the the minute highfidelity really nuanced picture of what this can provide." Which is why, for instance, if I'm working with a pro alete of mine, yeah, we're going to take their Whoop data or their aura data. I'm going to examine that and give them some feedback on that. But I'm also going to have them do like a morning reading. So they wake up and the first thing they do in the morning is actually do a 2 to 5 minute baseline reading. Not not a resonance reading, baseline reading. Why am I doing that? Because I'm driving 12 to 15 metrics that are giving me a much more microscopic view of their nervous system as opposed to that singular one. >> But I'm not proposing that everybody should like get someone like me to do that or even have the need to do that. It's just understand that there are limitations. Uh HRV is not nearly as robust of a metric for telling you something about your physiology as something like V2 max. >> Yeah. >> Like V2 max I'd put up there as like a metric of like, okay, this is kind of like a true metric of like overall like wellness and overall like fitness. HRV is not like that. It just doesn't operate like that. And it's not a normativebased metric either. It's like we technically do have norms because we've done so many studies to where we know where people typically fall, but we also know that because of the other influencers, genetics, age, sex, that if you don't fall within that normative range, it actually doesn't tell us anything about your overall level of health and wellness. Mhm. >> It's like if you know that hey for males age 35 to 40 the mean RMSSD value is 56 milliseconds and you know the standard deviation is 10 and my HRB is 25. So therefore I know I fall multiple standard deviations outside of the mean and so therefore I must be unhealthy. It's just not the it's not the case. We don't have enough evidence to to suggest that. So it does require a little bit of nuance and I think that it's best used when you have someone and we can bias like me who can inform you as to what it means >> but HRV is best used this way. It's best used in real time to as a guide as a signaling window for training. It's [ __ ] cool, dude. I feel like this is the front uh vanguard of some revolution, some new sort of health revolution thing. And uh it's cool and it's evidence-based and I'm glad that there's people like you who have done the research and spent a few thousand hours in clinic like working on this stuff. It's really really cool. Uh so where should people go? They're going to want to check out more information about everything. >> Yeah, sure thing. So as you mentioned before, M is in dark mode. However, we are open for pre-order and so I mean again thanks for the the shout out that you gave with Hubberman because people actually got introduced to the world not just it's and it's also it's not just about M. It was about residents breathing and I think that that being brought into kind of the limelight is huge and so I appreciate that. But about health go on over there pre-order. We'll be shipping out in August. So I just want to manage people's expectations that like you can't order it and get it now. Um you just happen to be a friend of the family here. So yeah, >> so so you got one. Check us out there. Love to get some feedback from people and get resonance breathing out there to the world. >> Okay. Appreciate you, man. >> Absolutely. Rob, congratulations. You made it to the end of an episode. Your brain has not been completely [music] destroyed by the internet just yet. Here's another one that you should watch. Come on.