A Journalist on the frontline of the 'War on Terror', Iraq and Afghanistan, 2001-2010

Welcome to the War Studies Podcast. We bring you worldleading research from the School of Security Studies at King's College London, the largest community of scholars in the world, dedicated to the study of all aspects of security, defense, and international relations. We explore the complex realm of conflict because the study of war is fundamental to understanding the world we live in and the world we want to live in. Before we begin, a brief warning for this series content. We will be discussing the firstirhand experiences of war and conflict, which may well include descriptions of traumatic events and scenarios involving severe injuries or death. These accounts are deeply personal and may be upsetting for some listeners, particularly veterans. If you find yourself becoming overwhelmed, we encourage you to pause the episode or step away entirely. For anyone impacted by these themes, support is available 24/7. In the UK, you can contact the combat stress helpline at 08001381619 or the NHS OP courage service. Additional resources are linked in our show notes. The opinions expressed on this podcast are those of the individual interviewed and do not reflect the official views of King's College London, the School of Security Studies, or the organizations for which the individuals speaking were working at the time of the incidents discussed. Hello and welcome to King's College London War Studies War Stories. Uh today we're delighted to welcome Tiana Stevens [snorts] uh who joins us all the way from Australia. Um but as a uh a former uh graduate of the the war studies uh department uh still enjoys our attention as an alumni. Uh Tania uh was a journalist throughout much of the early period of Iraq and Afghanistan. Um good morning Tanya. >> Good morning. >> How are you? >> Good. Um it's evening here so it's a bit strange like you're there during the day but um no it it's good and it's it's great to be part of um this podcast. It brings back a lot of memories. [snorts] >> Thank you very much. And actually that's definitely something we've seen already in some of the the podcast is I think it's been quite helpful for people to to relive some of those those moments um and quite cathartic uh whilst also you know in some ways bringing back some quite joyous memories of of comradeship and so on. Awesome. Well, we'll get stuck in. So what I'd love to do is just right at the top if you could just lead with a very short summary of your career uh to date. Um and then we'll dive into more depth specifically on that elements of Iraq and Afghanistan. So start broad and and then we'll focus down. >> Yeah. Well, um I started I trained in Australia um as a journalist and then um one of my first jobs after I finished my cadet ship um in Australia was actually a year in South Africa um working for uh a newspaper um in a little play coastal place called East London. And it was there that I had been um all the way through school wanting to work as a journalist in difficult areas, areas that um were problematic or had had um some kind of issues of course with the parttheide and then the elections in 1994 with Mandela um and through that. So I spent a year working and then ended up in London sorry on ended up in London on a small newspaper the Audot news inshot and >> I do calling uh working in London at Aldershot news. >> Yes sorry well yeah it wasn't [laughter] exactly London but for me it was London at that point. Um and but back sorry to South Africa. I actually my first introduction to sort of defense stories was spending time on the HMS Cornwall. Um when they came to Port Elizabeth and I reported on the HMS Cornwall and then they went to Cape Town and I followed them and went to Cape Town and spent more time with them with them and loved it and just thought this was something that I was sort of playing around with that actually defense reporting. um the military. Um I would love to do that. And then I ended up in London and got the position in at the Ordershot News and was covering army stories and um again like the the stories that I was covering very local but I couldn't [clears throat] actually think anything more I wanted to do. Um, and then I was offered a position down in the West Country and I was covering the Navy, the Royal Navy, um, and uh, the Marines, I think it was. And, um, and it just went from there. And then 9/11 happened and of course Afghanistan. Um, so in in one way, regardless of like the the horrific um outcome of 9/11, I was in the right place in the west west country to take on those stories. And then I ended up in London working for um a tabloid and got to cover Iraq. So that's kind of the short >> version. And then so just and then very briefly sort of uh take us through the the 20 years post um Iraq. >> Okay. So when um my last trip to Iraq, I was actually sitting in actually on Camp Victory and sitting in accommodation like just a little um what are they called? Like the the metal boxes like you know where I was sleeping. And I remember um I had a book on ethics and war and I just >> I was reading that and I thought do you know what I'm gonna apply for war studies at King's College and I applied for it sitting on Camp Victory in Iraq >> and actually got my acceptance there as well. Um, and so when I as soon as I came back, I returned back to the newspaper and what cemented the idea of like King's College and doing something else was that I went straight into the newsroom and was asked to report uh, Big Brother. It was live by that stage, 24-hour live feed, and I just had to sit there and report and write. And there was nothing more boring for me than coming back from Iraq. [laughter] >> Um having to write about Big Brother. It just >> there's nothing. And so that that was kind of it for me. And um I mean after that I did some journalism work um just uh freelance or just um on and off and worked for um did some intelligence work and things like that and then eventually started uh did finished the masters with Kings and then did my PhD and am now an academic at the University of Sydney. >> That's amazing. uh really interesting and I think particularly that little uh uh adage of uh applying for King's College war studies uh from Camp Victory and getting your acceptance there. >> I still have the book. [laughter] I still have that book like I keep it because it's sort of a memory of when I did that >> but also just the I think for for those thinking about joining the military like we often talk about how uh the army is an awful lot of hurry up and wait [snorts] >> um and you spend an awful lot of time sat around waiting for stuff to happen. you're ready, you're trained, you're good to go. [snorts] The reality is on operations is very rarely waiting. It's often recovering, getting ready for the next operation. It's always something to do. Um, but I think it's very reassuring to con confirm that that waiting is still better than watching reality TV. >> Yeah, it is. Um, I think for journalists is a bit different. It's well it is different like if if it's quiet is like we are sitting around so we're not always out in the road. There are times when it is so quiet and you think what am I going to do and you're just sitting there and that's when I thought I really want to do the war studies masters and I just and I applied not thinking I would get it but um a little bit cocky maybe thinking well hang on a sec I'm in Iraq and you know I know all this I know what it's like on the ground. >> Yeah. um it'll be fine. And yeah, >> so moving more into specific sort of deployments as a journalist. Um >> I'm conscious here. We're going to sort of treat this one slightly differently where with a lot of the other um podcast we're focusing on specific incidents. >> Yeah. Um but with you I think we're going to sort of try and pull together a succession of journalists journal deploy journalism um engagements um to sort of pick apart the sort of the differences between the different theaters the different times the different politics and also the way in which the military engaged with um journalists. So perhaps maybe we start with the first one and sort of trend goes, but could you give us a sense of you when you deployed um for the first time with the tabloid to uh Iraq? It was with the British, I believe. Um how were you embedded with the military? Were you attached unit? If so, who? What was the unit you were with? And did you have a specific mission as it were from the tabloid to to do that? Um I think when I in 200 uh3 I'm really sorry I actually I don't have all my notes here so I don't have um the exact units that I was with but I remember two of the trips in 200 sorry 2003 one was on an MP flight. It was on the Queen's flight actually with MPs and that might have been like the April or the May and even though we had had the thunder into Baghdad and like the the initial um run in uh the invasion as such um it was quiet. It wasn't. Um I remember Bazra particularly was we walked around the market without helmets on and I think I think back now and I look at the photos and go wow even the even the the Brits the the soldiers didn't have helmets they had berets. Um, >> and it was interesting sort of I didn't think much of it at the time, but it wasn't long after that that the suicide bom bomber um there was a suicide bombing. Um, and obviously then the security changed with that, but we were on we were staying at the Bazra airport as well. So that's where we stayed because not a lot had been set up at that point. And so, um, we stayed there and it was just the the troops are like, um, just really casual. Like there wasn't like they weren't concerned about me or anyone else. Um, they spoke to me, you know, we ate together, you know, we stayed in the airport together. And, um, it was just a really nice camaraderie with everyone. And um I remember them complaining about other journalists who complained about staying in the airport um and that it wasn't good enough cuz there was no like there was no now nohere for a haird dryer or anything like that. And I was like I didn't care. This is great. I love this. This is this is amazing. >> And um so I remember that first like that particular trip and then we were at the airport with the MPs. We'd come in on the Queen's flight. Um and >> sorry just for for the wider audience MP means military police not member of parliament. [laughter] >> Um and it was just I didn't feel out of place. And then I went um again to like for Christmas time um and we went to a school um or where kids were um staying and we brought them presents, Christmas presents and things like that. So that first year was um really about I think it was like hearts and minds. I can't remember the name of it, but it was about with the berets and, you know, not the the full on >> um like I had a flat jacket on, but I certainly wasn't wearing my my helmet or anything like that. Um but I remember the first suicide bombing in in Bazra with the market and then it did change a lot after that and particularly with PR um and the concerns with the um mod with journalists being um being out there. Um in two Yeah. So that was 2003. And then 2004 um I went with uh the I wrote it down actually. It was a transport um company from Ohio and we traveled from Q8 across um I think it was May 2004 and it was really before the IEDs really became a thing. people were talking about them, >> but they weren't or the improvised um devices. They'd mentioned them, but they weren't such a big thing. And so I remember on this trip from Q8 to Camp Victory um in um uh in Baghdad that they were more concerned about rifle fire >> um and things like that. And so the trip was incredible. We slept under the stars like we slept on camp beds um on on the trip and we got hit by small arms fire on the way. So we'd had we had to stop but it wasn't um the PR with that. I just I was just on my own. There was no PR person with me. There was no one. I just traveled with them. It was amazing. Then in 2005, the PR machine changed where I had to have um a female PR um uh military personnel with me, following me everywhere. And even when we got to Baghdad, there was a um a soldier who grabbed me and said, "Let's run. Let's go." [laughter] Because he he could see what was going on. And I was just being followed to the showers and things like that. So just everywhere. But um >> well so the the the troops with you were like you need some space. >> Yes. Yeah. And that's what you know so it probably wasn't the right thing to do but um they you know they I had somebody following me absolutely everywhere. So but in that year between 2004 and 2005 when the I guess looking back the danger the the the problems really um uh came about with Iraq um and things like that. So yeah, >> actually, so and on that, how did you find, generally speaking, it sounds like you had a very positive relationship with um the troops on the ground, but how when you went out on patrol with them and such, like how were you assigned to vehicles, did you have like a uh a mentor or a handler as it were? >> Yeah. In 2004, um alo with the Brits, um the MOD obviously organized all of that. I don't see the the workings of any of that. Um, and then with the US um, troops, it came from um, the Pentagon as far as what I can remember. I rang like out of the blue. I just wanted to go and I rang the Pentagon and said, "Hey, can I go out with your troops? I want to, you know, embed with them and go." And they came back to me and said, "Yes, let's go. We'll organize it." So, I remember I had to fly into Q8 and meet um, uh, a senior officer in Q8. um do all you know what we had to do like you know um talk about the trip and things like that and then it was actually really easy. It wasn't actually as difficult as what I thought it would be. When you're in country though when you arrive that's when you have to sort of sit and do nothing and just wait for your ID to be checked for them to check everything for you to be embedded officially and that can take like a day or so. So you're just kind of sitting and waiting around for that. But to actually get there it there was there was no problems with that I think because I had accreditation as well. So once you're in country you get accredited um fully and that can take its time. Um but then again like sitting around gives you time to think about what's happening looking at what's you know for me what was interesting um and fed into a lot of what like with my study at Kings as well like the analysis of of war and when you're actually in a war zone what's actually what is the reporter what are the reporters actually reporting from home like from the UK for example and it was so when they were showing pictures of everything being blown up, I was just sitting there going, "Where is this?" You know, because it's it's so micro like um >> Yeah. It's like the news the medium makes it look like it's absolutely everywhere. >> Yeah. >> And it's not. So, >> that's interesting. >> Yeah. So, can I ask you um Tiana that really really sets up the situation um pretty well and um yeah, fascinating to hear how you sort of asked to asked to come along, got cleared to go out. Can we can we zoom out a little bit and just discuss um why on earth you ever wanted to go and report in conflict in the first place? you know, you've already said that you didn't you wanted to to to look at some of the difficulties of life and you know, you certainly got your contrast to that with Big Brother, but um you know, when when did you start feeling like you wanted to go to these places and and how did that motivation um develop? >> I can't not remember a time when I didn't want to go like from when I was um young um really young. It it was just something that I always wanted to be a reporter. And I remember at school we had to watch a movie called Cry Freedom um about Donald Woods who was a um a South Afric editor an editor for the newspaper I worked for actually in South Africa and he um when I was in South Africa and I met him actually uh before he died. it was something about like his work with you know apartheid and just reporting and writing about just human stories and so it's always been there and so I've always had this drive like that's what I wanted to do but I think with um what and then I was lucky to do some defense reporting in South Africa but then also the type of stories the type of human stories and everything I got to write there and then I was lucky to be on the autoshot news and it just sort of flowed from there. I I didn't do anything in particular. I just um knew that's what I wanted to do and I got lucky in the sense of the places that I was working. Um and I just I remember when I arrived in I was when I started on the autoshot news, I said to my editor, you've got two weeks holidays. I'm going to Bosnia and I'm going to spend two weeks there and I'm going to bring you back a story. And this was sort of it for me because when I was there I ran into an army major, British army major who were friends to this day. And um I was just sitting in a cafe that at this point the Sievo particularly was just like there wasn't much there. There wasn't um much to do or see. And I just sitting eating pizza and I heard this British voice and I said, "Oh, you're from the UK." and we started talking and he was with S4 stabilization force staying in Sievo and I got taken to um see the de demining like the mines um being the uh troops demining. I got taken to places um that were badly affected during the war. Um and one place garage was where two British soldiers were killed during the war in an accident. Their car had gone over um the side of a a road down a a ravine and um he took me up there and there had been a makeshift sort of memorial put in there during the war but it had been left and the locals had actually looked after it. They looked after it for all this time. It was incredible. And when I got back to the UK, um, this army major organized for the family to be sent out cuz they didn't know about it to go and see this memorial that had been put up in garage for them. And I just it just went from there. I just um these stories were human and much more than big brother and you know the social media because at that point um you know things later on like Facebook and social media and everything it just for me conflict and what goes on during a war even Iraq flying over in the um the Blackhawks and just seeing the the country is so beautiful Iraq you know with the Um, uh, you have the colonial era there. You have the colonial the graves from World War I and what like the Brits that are still buried there. It's just something I can never describe it properly. It's just something in me that just it's just there. >> Sorry. >> Thanks for telling sort of origin story really. And I love this uh you obviously don't you have not just a little entrepreneurial flare to head off to to Bosnia on your your personal leave. It makes me wonder about the the situation when you landed in Iraq for the first time because you know I always wonder for journalists to to to what extent are you do do you go out there and and and you're told what to do you have a group mission as a as a press team or or do you just get out there embed and and and find the story? So what was you know what was the size and shape of of of your team in so far as there was one or who were you mentored by and and and what were you ostensibly there to do from the outset? How was it supposed to work? I think if particularly in 2003 again it was very open like there wasn't any of these rules of war for journalists as such and I'd always my biggest thing was that I'd always wanted to report on a war that I could have a bit more freedom like if I'd been around during the the Vietnam War that would have been um that would have been like my war. It was like isn't you know the journalists could go and they they had that freedom but with Iraq we had the we had to like for the majority of us we had to be embedded but that first year particularly when I went with the um on the queen's flight or with the MPs um it was quite it was very relaxed there was no agenda like I was going there I was reporting on the MPs or on the flight and things like that but it was also very um relaxed when we were there in the sense that if something happened or you know I talk to whoever it was cuz we were again at the beginning of Iraq we were at the airport like we were staying at the airport so there wasn't much scope to go out there wasn't the setup of like camp victory and the um uh the main um uh uh the main camp where you know the um government government officials would Okay. Um, so I guess I wasn't seen as a problem at that point. I didn't have a lot of questions. It was just I was actually there. I was going. It was like what I had pushed for and really wanted wanted to do. Um and then again when I went again with the when going to the school and and things like that there even the newspaper wasn't um it was basically just go just go see what you can get you know that that was the idea because Iraq at that point was quiet I wasn't wouldn't say like quiet as in nothing was happening >> but there wasn't a lot of news around for it so a lot of the story the things that I could write were more human which which was lovely actually because in 2024 when I went on the convoy and then um later on when I got hit by the IED obviously things changed and there was a lot of weariness with the newspapers. I remember that and particularly um when I stayed with the um with the Marines um the US Marines on the Euphrates and they were pushing for me to get stories out. When are you going to publish? when are you gonna do something? And um it was the most incredible trip being able to stay with them on the Euphrates like in the middle of Fallujah between Fallujah and um Ramadi. I got to go um without any PR person. I got to go and have lunch with the Iraqi commander. You know, we had goat, we had fresh watermelon, like you know, we sat around and it was just amazing. and um and in the evenings as well. Um but the um the feeling was that the media particularly in the in the UK were not interested in anything but the death toll. And actually, in fact, it did happen when I said got this story to um to my work. Um and they said, "Well, we need to wait until 3,000 US soldiers have died before we're going to publish anything." And it was like, well, you know, and so there was a a feeling of um, you know, the same things were happening over and over again, and they just weren't um wanting to publish anything. And I think one of the most hardest decisions I I kind of had to make was at the same time as that was that they wanted me to go to Hadith Hadith where the massac there was the massacre um from the US troops um where a number of uh civilians had been killed and they asked me to travel there on my own in Iraq and of course I spoke to the Americans at the time and they said well no we're not going to take you. And so there was I was always put in this position of they wanted the death and the you know and and those kind of problem stories. >> Yeah. >> Rather than the human stories and that's like what I work on now. Like I like to see the the human there's always something else in a conflict. Sorry. No, I think it's really interesting because I think uh yeah, you're absolutely right in that there was a focus on the negative aspect which may have been driven obviously by politics. Um and it's just interesting to see how that filters through into the media because obviously that influences uh the picture back home. This is something that Nick and I about um both on on his podcast, my podcast where we talk about our own experiences and how that impacts the morale of the troops out there. And so it's interesting to hear that the the US Marines were was pushing you to to post stories presumably the positive stuff or the the stuff wasn't just about disaster. >> Yeah. Exactly. And then that that was a problem because the I'm not sure what it was like in America, but I know I can remember at the time with the UK people were just desensitized to it. They just didn't want to hear it anymore. We'd had a number of years of this from Afghan like 9/11, Afghanistan and and Iraq and um whereas now with I think with social media and online in a sense with journalism there's the room there's the space to actually put the human stories and to tell those whereas it really wasn't we didn't have the like the space then to do it and so um there would have been a lot of amazing stories coming out of Iraq in a sense even just about the troops, about the soldiers and things like that, which was what I did a lot of when I was on the um regional newspapers. >> It's interesting. I sort of Yeah, that that resonates with me, you know, not not having the space that the the catastrophe is the somehow the preferable story to the human story. But do we do we know do we know why that is? When where does that come from? It's um it's to sell the papers. It's to sell the news back then because people forget like you know with with digital journalism or online journalism that Facebook didn't actually even come in until I think I was in Iraq when somebody says hey do you want to join Facebook and I'm like no like I think it was my space at that at that time. And so it really um it was about the short sharp like to the point kind of stories and there I don't think there wasn't a lot of this now where you do have the space and the time to actually put these incredible like stories together you like human stories together. Um they just wanted to sell they wanted to make money I guess and um it was the commercialization of news. Um, Rip Murdoch in particular, I guess. Um, but and and the Mirror Group and you the commercialization and and death and torture and murder and war sell, but the nice stories don't. So that's you know they and I I think if there was something like with the Brits if there like for example the um the mirror with um uh Piers Morgan and um the faking of the uh the the fake photos from 2004 that made news because it was it was sort of it was a negative thing for our troops. The Sun didn't do that because they were very much for, you know, they were for the they were the Sun and the News of the World, ironically, at the time were shock and all. We're for this, you know, we're for the troops and everything, but there's always somebody that isn't. And um, so yeah, it's it's commercialization like, you know, >> I remember that personally. We were we were at we were doing our BA when that happened and I remember it was the the mirror and the headline was simply vile with a with what like a British soldier urinating on a prisoner in the back of a a fourtime truck. >> Yeah. >> And sort of thank God the internet was a thing by then because the the geeks of the internet very quickly pointed out that the sort of I think the wooden floor of that that truck wasn't what was in use and therefore it must have been a fabricated um image. But it >> it had already sold. it had already sold. So, and it's the same in war as well in conflict, you know, when something happens, >> you know, that's what is going to get people's attention. Like Abu Gray, for example, and um the kidnapping of the American uh woman in 2003 near the airport and things like that. It was just and I think when we talk about sort of journalists like I like I annoyed many people as they probably annoyed you both as well. Um it's because we're under pressure. We are under pressure to to get these stories and to um you know not just the nice you know not just the nice stories. Um, and so we're under pressure like with the Marines saying, you know, you're going to publish, you're going to do this, but it's also it's not up to me with the publishing and it's not up to me with the headlines, you know, what they say and um, stories get changed as well. So, you know, we put something together and then it goes through a process. Um, so it is hard being on the ground as a journalist because we we're fighting against um the military in one way, you know, whoever we're embedded with because they just want you just want the positive, but sometimes um it's not always positive. It's not always, you know, but yeah, it's um it's a difficult balance. There's a a very good lesson in there for any um undergraduates listening to this thinking about their source origin. >> Yeah. That's not to say that I didn't push and I wouldn't do the same thing now. I just have in hindsight and teaching ethics [clears throat] as an academic and doing the MA, doing the masters at King's College and actually having to critically think about my actions, the things that I did, the things that I said, um, you know, my behavior. um you know, in in hindsight, when you're just new to it and you're young and you're in a conflict zone, you don't have that. So, I would do things very differently now. I um but I also would still have that passion and would also still have that drive and probably annoy just as many people. You mentioned uh when we were talking earlier that there were a couple of I suppose very kinetic incidents that were sort of interesting to view from the perspective of someone who was there with the military but not the military as a journalist. Um could you perhaps sort of dive into those um specific examples? >> Do you mean sorry not with the military or as a journalist? with the military but as a journalist and therefore you're kind of like a fly on the wall when there's a major incident. >> Oh um I guess uh we two stand out. One um again we were talking about talking earlier about sort of sitting around like with when you're with the military like the troops don't sit around generally like you know they're they're always doing something they're always out. Um, but as a journalist sometimes if nothing's happening, you are just sitting. You're just sitting there. You're writing your stories, applying to King's College to a M's program. Um, and I was on the Euphrates with um the US Marines and um it was in between two two of the worst areas of Fallujah and Ramadi. and locals could just drive through our camp, straight through the camp because there were there were gates, but it was actually a um a community um which I think the Americans had taken over or you know arrangements with the locals with the community and um a suicide bomber blew himself up at the gate and all of a sudden it was like boom and I was like wow okay and then all of a sudden it's like let's go and then I got taken straight out to the gate which wasn't very car and saw the aftermath of um of this suicide bomber. I think all that was left was the foot. That that was it. It was um uh it was incredible. Like I think there was a couple of um Iraqi soldiers were killed on the gate, but we then got those that were wounded was taken straight to the hospital and I just got whisked off to the hospital. And it's like they don't say much to you. You just kind of go. You just go with it and sort of see what happens. Because in those kind of incidences, they don't have time. Like, and you would know this, that they don't have time to talk to you. They don't have time to babysit you um or talk you through anything. And so, I just went with it. Um, again, not really thinking about any sort of dangers or um any thoughts for anything. I just went with it. And it was the same when we were driving through Sarda City and there were three or four Humvees um and I was in the second Humvey and I was filming at the time out the wind like with the window and at that point I think the Humvees had the US Humvees had solid windows. They didn't actually um u move in or out or move out like they used to. Like you couldn't push them out. But I was filming and all of a sudden there was like boom. And I [clears throat] have this video just of everything just going like just everywhere. And all I can remember is this screaming of um go and then back up back up go secondary device secondary. and me trying to scramble around looking for my pen and my book and everything like this. And um and then all of a sudden like we we left we went and I ended up in a um with the military police in a building with um a US PR. It was it was a it was a male PR person and we sat there all day. They actually ignored him as well. Um, but I was ignored. I think it we counted it. It was 10 hours. And all we could hear was them arguing about, well, should we get them out? Should we get her out by helicopter or should we get her out by road? And it was just over and over and over again the same discussion. How are we going to get them out? Um, and it was just there was no food. There was nothing. We're just sort of sitting there like we just didn't exist. But they were talking about us. And I remember it was just like a trance. Like I I can't remember doing anything else but just sitting there just waiting and waiting and waiting and no one spoke to us until eventually it was like okay we're going to go. We're going I think we went by road what I can like it was just in another another zone like I had no idea what was going on. Um and I then got um taken back to Camp Victory and there was a soldier waiting for me because he'd been told um couldn't get me out because of a sandstorm. That's why we couldn't go by helicopter back as well. So we went by road and um we got back to the camp victory and they assigned me um a sergeant to look after me for the next several days and made sure that I sat there and just watched DVD after DVD after DVD until we sat out the the the sandstorm because they were worried obviously about any um PTSD I guess anything like that. Um, and then they fl I got flown out. I got flown home. Um, but I wasn't injured as such. Um, but it was more the isolation. I think that at that point they were more concerned about the the safety of everyone and trying to get everyone out. And journalists, it's not, you know, it we're their priority because if anything happens to us, it's on them. But we are kind of isolated and in this box where they're not discussing anything with us, if that makes sense. >> And so was it your vehicle that was hit? >> No, the first sorry the the first Humvey was hit. >> Um yeah, cuz that they went through and then we got the secondary like we got the the blast from that. But yeah, so we were fine. Like it was like like all over the place. Um, but other than that, I think they were just more concerned about that they had a foreigner, you know, they had somebody and they didn't know whether or not we were being targeted because I was with them as a journalist because of I guess intelligence and things like that. So, we needed to get out. See, it's interesting at that point, you know, we we've speaking to some of the other guests on this podcast, we do cover that sort of, you know, that feeling of of of being engaged by the enemy by small [clears throat] arms or IEDs and all that sort of thing and the and the sort of the primary emotions that go through your mind. You know, some say um you know, that sort of sinister feeling that that someone's got your number and and is and is trying to take you and the people around you out and and that's unpleasant and and it sounds like, you know, I imagine you had that, but also combined with this sort of weird social dynamic of being a bit of an outsider and and some someone attached and you know, did did that sort of override a bit that sort of awkwardness and you know, >> I think I think I felt more Like I think the adrenaline for me personally and I guess this is a warning also for students at King's College as well doing masters and war studies is a for a lot of people there is an effect like there is like um you know the trauma that goes with that. So that does happen. For me personally, it it was more to do I think there was so much adrenaline going on that nothing really I think when you're in when you're in country when you're in a conflict you're just running on nothing like you're just going and I didn't actually even think when I was there about the danger or the consequences of being there actually even about the IED as such. I was more frankly I was more concerned about sitting there bored like I was sitting there for 10 hours not knowing what was going on and for somebody like me I need to know what's going on like I need to know what's going on 6 months ahead let alone like that 10 hours like I have to like know what's happening am I going back am I not what's h you know what's going on are we okay kind of thing um so I don't tend to get traumatized as such but a lot of other people do and I think um because I analyze and I think maybe that helps like I I sort of run through it and I talk to people talk to friends and things like that about it. Um but the loneliness and feeling like an outsider and not being in control of what was happening was the hardest thing for me. >> Um >> presumably during that that 10 hours they were recovering the vehicle and any particular casualties. Um was there any sort of small arms threat from um insurgents or or was it pretty calm after that initial explosion >> at that point? It like cuz I mean 10 hours have passed. I assume that they were like you know cuz they were trying to decide whether or not we we go by Blackhawk. It was by helicopter or by road. So I didn't I had nothing to do with the intelligence or anything like that. They kind of kept all that and I think that's what was for me I wish it had been more open. But then again, thinking back as a journalist, they're not going to tell me anything like that. Um, so um I know that there was discussions about small arms fire um as well and things like that, but generally like I mean after 10 hours things had calmed down. So and then we and then we went so they put things in place for us to go. Um, but it for me it was strange when I got back to Camp Victory and I had somebody waiting for me to make sure that I was okay and he would he was actually assigned to sit just sit and and watch DVDs to make sure that I was okay. So, um, >> yeah, >> I don't know. I think it's a culmination of just everything I ever wanted to do. And so I wasn't just thrown in some like some journalists that just get told to go and it's not something that they've planned or wanted to go. I've been reading about war and conflict and things since like like you know before high school things about like the Bosnian war and things like that. So it wasn't yeah it wasn't unusual for me >> in terms just going back to the uh the suicide bomber. Um yeah, obviously it as as a method of warfare is very hard for Western minds to get their heads around. >> Um what did you notice amongst the both the US and the Iraqi army guards about how that attitude changed? How did they feel about it? Cuz obviously if that was the first one that they had experienced and then obviously you mentioned it presumably civilians around as well. What was the did the mood change? Um I think uh like cuz again it was so casual like we were at the airport and I had only been there not even an hour and like we with the MPs we were with the um uh the um I think they were from um the Met Police um uh uh guards the um oh my brain Sorry. Um, we had like all sorts of people there and all of a sudden this happened and again I got taken out. So this is how I got to I got actually a front page on the times for this this story because I think it was one of the first um attacks in Bazra at that point. Bazra had actually been what I can remember had been okay and not okay but it it had hadn't been like Baghdad and um I mean after that obviously we I got we got taken back like to to London the Brits became more sensitive to negative publicity with the Iraq war but I don't think that had anything to do with Bazra as such I think that was just the like the context of a war like you know as it goes when a war starts like say Iraq, it's in one way it's it's new, it's fresh, it's um you know the um they'd already had a lot of negative press because it was the Iraq war as well. So to be fair to them, they started off really well, like they were welcoming and everything like that, but then I think it started to feel a bit more like stepping on eggshells. um depending on what you were writing. And so the more the press came in, the more journalists came in and were writing more negative stories to do with it, which is I guess is you know it's expected and again in hindsight looking back when you constantly have negative press of something that you know the the British soldiers are are being killed, American soldiers, many more are being killed and then you've got the press constantly on your back being negative and you're just trying to, you know, to get your your men out and safe, men and women out safe. Um, so I don't think it had anything to do with, you know, Bazera as such. I think it was an overall lethargy lethy lethargy lethargy um of the war and you know how it was progre progress progressing and the negative press of it you know >> I can I can sort of relate to that from the from the soldier perspective. I remember having embedded journalists in in in Sangin in in the second half of my tour in 2007. I you know I remember there was a a mass casualty situation involving a number of civilians from a from a Taliban device and and we had an embedded journalist at the time actually embedded with my platoon >> and um you know with these you know something would happen and nothing ever looks pretty in in these scenarios and you know on top of the pressure of dealing with the situation you know you kind of there niggling in the back of your mind is that is that concern of what what what could be written about this this complex situation here. So, I guess that puts a sort of a natural tension between you and the soldiers. And it's interesting you say like so walking on eggshells. >> Well, to start with there wasn't it was it was great in the sense that like you know I could travel with them with the you know with the Brits with the Americans. It was a lot more free and the conversations were a lot more freer as well with with the soldiers or with the military. But then I think again for me from 2005 it really started to change um with more particularly with the US with the um PR machine sort of dictating what you could do where you could go and things like that and the Brits um I mean for me personally I wrote a story that um they didn't like a headline that I actually didn't write. I didn't write the the the headline um for it. It was changed in the production. Um and so that is when I rang the Pentagon and said, "Please let me come out with you." And they said, "Yeah, of course." And that kind of started, which for me as an as experience for a journalist to be able to go out with both sides u with both the Americans and the Brits was incredible. I again in in hindsight looking back some of the things I said some of the things I did some of the things I wrote um I wish I'd done things differently but then again as a journalist when you're in a conflict I'm not trained for that I had no training I got given my flat jacket I got given my helmet got given my insurance and told to go we have no there's no train there was no training and so for us you know we are there to get a story so you're asking sort of what is the, you know, what were we doing? Well, we're there to get a story. And if you don't get a story, then you have to go back and you have to tell your editor, well, I don't actually have anything. Um, and that's a problem. So, when we cause problems, when we, you know, go off and do things that we shouldn't do or we wander off, you know, we're not actually, I don't think we're actually thinking about the danger. We're not. It is this instinct in us as a journalist that to write to tell stories to tell the world what is actually going on. Um I was never one to like to fake anything to like to write something you know that wasn't true but we're there to write what is actually happening. And when it's restricted when it's restricted by a PR machine it makes things very difficult. And I guess that's when that conflict happens because sometimes when there is fatigue and there is you know annoyance from you know the military to you know to the journalists or to the media there is this barrier and it's a shame really because we work really well together when there's a little bit more flexibility but we also I understand now looking back that you're also there to protect us because you don't want our death >> on your hands. Yeah, it's a really complex relationship in the sense that obviously it needs to be built on trust, but at either end of the equation, there's your personal safety and the other end there is a [snorts] um an editor that may not pay any regard to the trust that you need to build locally and thereby change story in a way that perhaps you hadn't written or hadn't reflected. And so you're of walking this tight rope >> uh where you want access but access requires trust >> and it's very easy for someone else who isn't physically there to to sort of you know almost change the rules overnight. It was like the Haditha um incident in 2005 like you know for me to even ask the Americans the American um military can you take me there was I didn't even it didn't even occur to me like in this sense I knew it wasn't right but I still did it and I just you know it you these relationships between journalists um by the media and the military they're so fragile in that way and I learned that lesson with the Brits. I really did. And I remember um somebody from the MOD ringing me actually when I was on one of the tabloids and saying, "I just wanted to check in and see how you are because I was such a pain in the bum with the oldershot news that I caused them so much grief because I was my nickname was the bulldog cuz I just would not give up or let go. I just wouldn't. And so I caused them so much grief. And I think to this day, I wonder if you still think that because even in Iraq, like you know, we annoy people. And I remember she rang me and she said, "I knew you, you know, I just wanted cuz I always remember you. I just want to check to see what you're doing, you know, and and things like this." And, you know, it's we don't do it to hurt anyone or we don't do it to annoy on purpose. It's just we're there to get a story and that's our job. Yeah, that's actually fascinating. Probably quite a good good point to to wrap up on you, make >> Yeah, I think so. Just a final reflection, I suppose. You know, I guess what you hope for is that is that perspective from everybody out there. You know, what what would the world be like without the the repotage, you know, without the opportunity to get the story out both for the local nationals and for the troops? Well, we might be a pain or journalists might, you know, the military might think that, you know, they could do without us, but actually you can't. you need, you know, you need us or you need the media because there are stories out there that need to be told >> and also you know for reflecting like this for for students that are doing the masters in um at King's College because there are subjects like reporting wars um which is an incredible was when I when I did it was an incredible unit you know to be able to critically think you know before so if you're doing the masters at Kings you get the opportunity to before you even go into a conflict zone um if that's what you they want to do to critically think about you know conflict about the media about how about ethics in particular I had no ethics training so um it's um the masters is is a very good way of conceptualizing um what or a good way to behave as a reporter in um and the things to think about as well. >> Brilliant. Well, I think you've touched on it as we've gone through the the podcast. Um but maybe uh uh you so did the the war studies course the MA help you during your experience of war but in actual fact you did the MA following all your um experiences. So it's almost one led to the other. You did, but it actually again helped me think about, wow, did I really do that? It gave me the skills to again critically think about my actions and about conflict rather than just going headstrong in, just going in and reporting and just doing whatever I felt like I thought I could do, you know, without consideration for the military, for in a sense ethics. um you know just to get that story that was my focus to be there and to get the story. It gave me the opportunity just to think about conflict and just all the different you know um processes of it of it from media to to the military and how you know the military works. Again I think I said earlier that I I I started the MA thinking oh I know all this. I've been to war. Most of you haven't. It's okay. You know, I can do this. And I was doing a um uh is it the the war games unit and I had to create a a game a war game and I used the Thunder Run into Iraq. I know this. I was there. I, you know, I've done all this and I failed miserably the first iteration of it. Like, you know, cuz we got another go like to refix it and fix it up >> thinking that I know everything. And actually, I know nothing about war and how the military works. You know, I can I can read about it. I can learn about it. I can, you know, ask people, but it's so unpredictable. >> Christie, is there a journalist serial in the Thunderrun war game? what [laughter] you do with the journalist who's uh on your mission uh is near the IED. So it's interesting because we you from a British military perspective we don't have any training in terms of what to do with uh journalists going into Iraq. So that was for me 2007 I don't know if you did Nick for Afghanistan 2007 >> yeah 2007 not so much to 2012 >> um yeah much more the difference in in the quality of the interviews I gave is is much [laughter] >> but so on that I yeah we were encouraged to obviously get little stories out for the >> rifeman for their local newspapers so the all the shop news or the the Ssbury Gazette um wherever those rifmen are come from But yeah, it wasn't media related. Then we had embedded journalists and we had no training on how to deal with you. We're just like look after them, make sure they don't die and be nice, give them a cup of tea. >> Um >> and then again with uh later on I was actually we had one person per company which I was one was trained for a week uh up at um uh uh Northold um on on media like how how to deal with media. We were like the the go-to person if we ever had media come to us. So at least there was some sense of okay we know what to do with you. We know about line lines for take and etc etc. So it was much more formalized process. >> Um but it is really interesting how at the end of the day we were basically making it up as we went along. >> But that's exactly what we were doing with you. >> Yeah [clears throat] exchange. That's a really interesting juxosition of that because I always assumed that you were trained to deal with us and that's why all the that's why we had the problems like cuz you know very strict >> but actually maybe that's where the the conflict comes into like the the issues come in because there's and I actually think that's a really interesting point to make that if the military is not being taught how >> to deal with us >> and you need us to teach you, not the military to teach the military how to deal with us as such. You need journalists to come in and talk to you kind of thing. So, there's there's a lot there actually. So, it's really interesting. >> Awesome. T, it's been an absolute pleasure. I'm very conscious is late down under and and Bruce is probably wondering where his uh warmest place is on the on the on the sofa at this time of night. >> He's asleep. [laughter] >> Thank you so much. >> Thank you. >> Thank you, Tang. We'd like to thank Kings College London, specifically the war studies department and professors James Gal, Jack McDonald, Juliet Patinson, Dr. David Betts, and the School of Security Studies communications team. Without their support and encouragement, this podcast would remain just another idea that never came to fruition. Furthermore, the tremendous war studies community, especially its alumni, in bringing together such a wonderful collection of unique experiences to share with the world to better understand the experience of war and the lessons learned from conflict. You've been listening to the War Studies podcast produced and edited by the School of Security Studies communications team. For more information on our work, visit our website which you'll find in the podcast description. If you've enjoyed this episode, we'd really appreciate it if you could rate and review us on your preferred podcast provider. Thanks for listening and we'll see you next time on the War Studies Podcast.