A Conversation with Niegel Smith - TORCHES: 30+ Years of Downtown Performance

I do see my role as a director as saying, "Hey, we're heading over there. Uh, that's where the finish line is." But, um, I don't want to know exactly what's at the finish line because if I know it, it's not going to be surprising or mixed in with all of our different values and artistry. >> [music] >> Welcome friends. I'm Kristen Martin and this is Torches. Today we have my dear friend Nigel Smith. Nigel is an award-winning theater director and performance artist. He's also the artistic director of New York City's OB award-winning theater, The Flea. I'm really excited to speak with him today. Welcome, Nigel. >> Thank you, friend. It's good to be talking to you, too. >> Great. How did you come to be in Downtown Performance? >> Oh. Oh, what a great question. Um, well, like I I often start with uh Veto Akanchi and Sophie Cal, [laughter] >> as we all do. >> What What am I even talking about? uh like I was I was tra studying traditional theater and uh in undergrad and uh was introduced to the work of performance art and specifically the performance artists of the Cal and Vita Lanchi uh and their happenings and their interactions in public space where the viewer participant uh wasn't aware whether their work was actually performance or just lived experience >> uh and it immediately caught me and made sense to me. Uh I was also studying the work of Austo Bal at the same time. >> Uh and specifically the work around forum theater and the theater is a place of uh exchange for community to work out questions or or or tragedies or uh excitements for that community. And I began to think about a a a role, a work in the theater that was outside of commercial, outside of the commercial concerns of are we selling this for entertainment? Uh and what are the different exchanges that uh an audience might have with your performance, with your work? And um that led me to uh the movement of the downtown scene in New York City and uh the artists and works that are happening here. Uh, how when did you first do that kind of soundwalk or experiential walk, immersive experience? What was the first one of those you did here in the city? >> Oh, wow. So, sound Yes. Uh, my Oh, my first soundwalk was Todd Shalom, >> uh, who was a longtime collaborator and friend of mine. Uh, and he was working with um, acoustic ecology and they were specifically building soundwalks around the city. And Todd led this walk in which we were looking at uh what are the everyday objects that we could create scores with. >> Uh and at the root of this, you know, investigation was that every choice has the potential to be a creative choice. >> And so if we think of the objects around us as the potential for us to start to create soundsscapes and scores together and to listen to one another and co-make with each other. And I I remember the culmination of this walk was actually in like a Gustides nearby [laughter] in which Todd tasked us with going into the store for 3 minutes and creating a score out of the objects in the store uh with the other >> like opening the freezer door and closing it. Opening the freezer door and closing. >> Yeah. Yeah. Or crinkling a bag. Uh and all the while being aware that the shoppers and the workers in there were our audience. both the transgression and the use of those objects and I was really really floored by the by that work. >> Awesome. Um, how do you see artistic lineage passed down or interrupted and has that influence the work that you make? >> Uh, I think that I personally am always looking out for amnesia. I'm looking out for the ways in which uh works incredibly uh groundbreaking works somehow get forgotten or moved past or uh and and so I'm oftenimes find myself insisting that we look back and see oh who's been in this terrain before. Uh I've noticed in the field a real lust for the new uh and a uh a languaging of the new is somehow um I mean I'll use the word original [laughter] >> right >> and and yes what what I do find original is is is how one's own voice attacks a form or brings a um forms together and syncing them but uh I I am hungry in our field for um more citation, >> more desire for citation, >> um more acknowledgement of uh who has um gone before and and affected us. I work with, you know, this I work with this artist Taylor Mack and one of the joys of the early part of our working together is Taylor is quite clear that Judy's work was in the lineage of the theater of the ridiculous. Not only in that lineage, but partly in that lineage. and it allowed us to be really clear to each other and to our audience that part of what we're doing is part of a lineage of making that's already taken place in this space. >> That's beautiful. Can you share what has been a moment of pure joy >> and your art making? >> Actually directing the Chicago regional premiere of Father Comes Home from the Wars parts one, two, and three by the Queen Susan Lorie Parks. Wow. [laughter] It's someone whose work I wanted to interpret my since I was in undergrad. I was like, "Ah, this is this there's something about this playwright, the way that uh not only is she uh writing incredible narratives with wonderful characters, but there's um >> there's a rhythm to her plays and it's almost like a jazz rhythm. Uh, and I and I just felt that in the instinctual and I knew that like if I could just be in those worlds, I could guide some folks through them. Uh, and I got the chance to direct that at uh, the Goodman Theater in Chicago. A cast of 18. >> Wow. >> Huge for a play. [laughter] Uh, an incredible blues musician from Chicago. uh who like just got in and started leaning on each other and making this beautiful courageous world. And uh I I was shocked and surprised by what we made and just super delighted to have that. >> And that collaboration has continued because I just saw something you're making with Susan Lori last week. In fact, >> yeah. Yes. [laughter] Susan Lori is like a friend and a collaborator now and such deep respect. And you know, we're making this piece uh called the tuneup. Uh Susan Lord came to me and said, "Hey, brother. I've been working uh with my band for a year now, nine piece band, writing these new songs and also writing um some what she calls micro plays and some jingles uh and wanting to tune us up in this moment." >> Yeah. >> Yeah. And it's really a special special piece uh combining my deep loves which is like you know great pieces of theater and also music live music live music live musicians please. >> Yes. [laughter] It was really uplifting and inspiring last week. I'm excited to see where you guys continue TO TAKE IT. BLACK SUPERHEROES TO THE RESCUE. [music] >> COLLABORATION. That's a good thing to talk about. you collaboration is so much a part of your work and work in the theater in general, but I think of you as a truly >> um generative collaborator and that it you've you create a room that encourages everyone to feel heard and feel seen and I would love to hear a little bit about what that is about for you and why it's important, why these great collaborations are important. Yeah. Look, I think that I I grew up in a church family. We went to church, me and my cousins. Uh we would play church in the front yard. We would imagine and co-create the world around us. And it was just fun. Number one, it's just fun to not know what someone else is going to bring into the mix. Uh and yeah, I do see my role as a director as saying, "Hey, we're heading over there. Uh that's where the finish line is." But um I don't want to know exactly what's at the finish line because if I know it, it's not going to be surprising or or mixed in with all of our different values and artistry. Uh and so I I really want to create a space where each person's voice and their discipline can come uh come to fruition. And I I also know what it's like to um to be neglected. Uh to have your voice um silenced. Uh and that hurts. >> Yeah. >> Uh and part of why I make theater, I make art, uh is so that we can be heard. >> Uh and so the the processes should uh emulate what we're up to. Uh, you know, someone once said to me, and I I could wish I could remember who it was, but, uh, what happens on stage in front of an audience is a document of what happened in the rehearsal room. >> Okay. >> Yeah. >> Uh, and I've been in the opposite side of deeply collaborative spaces. You know, I've been in rooms that have been >> uh, diretocracies, call them. I've led rooms like that and had to reflect on uh why the work showed up the way it did or why I showed up as that human in that particular process. >> Uh but the majority of my rooms and you know have a different flavor. >> Yes, that is very true. >> Yeah. >> Would you have any advice you'd offer around how to navigate conflict or power in a room >> around that [snorts] in in in the depth of warm collaboration? Yeah. what's really essential is actually sort of a psychological space uh which is that my role as a collaborator is to bring my point of view fully >> uh and so if I am recognizing that there's something that is is not working for the team or someone's being hurt or or even there's an idea that might not get us to the finish line. uh my job is to bring that up and bring it into the room. >> Uh and also know that the response of my collaborator their response is theirs. >> It's not mine to hold or manage. they get to manage and then we get to make the next step decision together because in the place in the moments the times when I have withheld when I have not said uh what should be said in that moment or that what I'm recognizing uh we end up more hurt or we end up going down paths that we that aren't as productive for longer and so uh really really it's it's >> it It's that trust that you can share something and that your collaborator can hold it. Uh, and you know, it it doesn't mean that you have to do it right away. You can write it down in your notebook and be like, okay, maybe I'm going to say this at the end of the day or maybe I'm going to say it in a couple rehearsals. >> Maybe it's not in this whole room right now. >> Yeah. Exactly. Yeah. >> You think a lot about the relationship to audience in your work and you've talked about that. Um, you also have made a lot of work that's had unusual relationships to audience. So, how do you approach them as a partner in your work rather than just as a spectator? >> Yes. Oh, that takes us back to Augusta Bal when I was reading Rainbow of Desire and he said the spect actor and I was like yes, I know. >> Like it was like it was like a it was he put language to something that I just knew and I knew that because I grew up in the Pentecostal tradition. >> Yeah. So that tradition uh it may have a formal structure that has a uh a worship leader, the priest or it may have a choir that has some songs prepared. But during the course of the worship, if you if a song comes into your heart, you start singing it and then the rest of the like the pianist will come in and support you and the rest of the congregation will come in and support you and whoa, suddenly we're singing this song. >> Okay? where suddenly someone's shouting and we're and we're taking care of them and and supporting them. And so growing up in that culture like to me it's like what the needs of the audience are just as important to what has been prepared to share with them. >> Yeah. Uh and so when I married that with the language of Austo Bal, it really began a deep critical thinking of mine and in my work about where does the um audience sit as a participant because I I hope that what I make, you know, I love going to an entertaining drama that just sort of or entertaining musical comedy that I can get lost in a world like I love that. uh but the work that I make I I hope that we are practicing uh ways of being and empathy that we carry with us out and so uh being aware that my participation is necessary or the participation of the audience is necessary is >> I could talk about this for days I don't know if [laughter] you want me to keep talking about it I could talk you know for me I was I also um was lucky enough to study scenic design uh with Gorgi Mishkaville and also to work in Eugene Lee's studio uh when in his studio in Providence. And so thinking about an audience's relationship to the offering, you know, are we surrounding it? Are we inside of it? Are our bodies necessary? I mean, this is where we can get into 24 decade and the work with Taylor Mack, but like what is the audience's role? >> Yeah. >> Beyond passive spectator. >> Yeah. Why don't you talk a little bit about 24 decade? That feels like a great uh thing to dip into. There are parts of that show that are still in my body, you know, that still sit with me. So, talk a little bit about over that, for folks who aren't aware, it was 24 hours of continuous performance for one evening, but it was 24 decades of music um that Taylor and Nigel and company developed. So, just tell us a bit about that. >> Yeah. Well, when I think about 24 decade, I actually think a lot about the chairs [laughter] because when we did it in its full incarnation, there were 650 seats and there were 650 chairs and we knew that over a 24-hour duration, an audience could not be sitting in one seat for that entire 24 hours that uh something about that would actually shrink the person and make them uncomfortable. Literally, just uncomfortable. and and also what does it mean to uh so the piece also um looked at 246 years of American history or 240 years 1776 to 2016 and now beyond. Uh, and so what did it mean to actually participate in that um, touching back at history uh, through this queer lens? And so devising ways that the audience had to put their own bodies and voice on the line, whether that's uh doing a queer prom where you choose someone of the sim seemingly same gender to have a dance with or uh in a decade when you're blindfolded passing off a rose from one person to the other uh or helping to move chairs so that we can have a dance party or soup kitchen. A favorite part for me was the white flight part where all the white people had to move out of the center of the space and people of color were able to take that space. And I thought that was so beautiful. >> Oh god. So so beautiful. And I remember, you know, Taylor talking about it that the impulse behind that was like he wanted the white folks in the audience to experience what it was like from a queer perspective to be in the suburbs. What does it mean to be cramped and, you know, and it difficult to have space and take up space? Uh yeah, it was really really exciting to come up with that. >> I still have a fondness for um a woman that I don't know who she was. I never will. >> Um that we passed something to each other while we were blindfolded. >> And we had this very intimate exchange and [snorts] it just I just feel this incredible warmth towards her even though I've never met her. I don't know her name. I don't know who she really is. But there was a a sense of community created in that moment. >> Yeah. Um and I think that that whole experience there were so many things that you all did as an ensemble and that you did in the role of director to create relationships amongst audience during the unfolding. >> Yeah. >> It's so great to hear you say because you just gave back to me what the impulse of the show was. >> Uh and that is act for me it's the joy of being a director. I I practice directing as an interpretive act. I know other people you know practice it in different ways. And so when Taylor said to me, "The goal of this show is for the community to form while it's also falling apart." >> Yeah. >> That gives me like, okay, so this is what my writer and co-director are saying the task is. So you get to go back to every choice making and saying, is that what we're doing here? >> You're measuring it against that. Yeah. Beautiful. >> Beautiful. Um, and you've worked in a spectrum of spaces and styles of work. You've done performance art. You've done play plays in regional theater. You've done largecale concerts in um epic houses. So all different scales. How does working in those that range of spaces affect the art making? >> Oh, how does it affect the art making? Well, when you have more money, you have more problems. So, [laughter] and when you have less money, you have more problems. >> [laughter] >> So actually I I love working at all the different scales. Um >> what the way it affects the art is >> for me about the invitation. So I think the work begins when you first say to someone else, I'm making a work and I want you to be part of it. >> So that could be a fellow collaborator or that could be an audience member. >> Yeah. >> Uh and in those spaces you're and I think about this a lot as an artistic director. uh because the space I run our biggest theater is 99 seats and our smallest theater is 44 seats. Okay. So when I'm asking an artist to make in that scale, I'm inviting them to bring their magic and their uh creativity to fill that box. >> Uh and as you mentioned, I I've worked in really I've worked at the Barbin Theater. I've wor the Sydney Opera House and that's a different invitation. Uh, and so just down from like as an artist, okay, this is the scale and the budget and the size, but then back to the audience. So if I'm inviting you to experience a piece in a, you know, in a basement, oh my god, I made this piece once. I'm one of those people or maybe when I was younger, I was one of those people that would open every door and there was a door in the basement of the public that had a laundry room in it. [snorts] Uh, and I made a piece in the laundry room in the basement of >> I CAME TO THAT PIECE. [laughter] AND THAT IS A really like like so immediately when I invite you to there you're like well I'm going to the public theater but I'm going to the basement. And so we're already starting to deal with the symbols and the meanings of that. And so the work has to wrestle with those symbols. How are you greeted in the lobby? You're coming to something that's not ticketed for one of the normal. So who is meeting you? And you're going down into the basement. What do they say to you as you're going down that you know all of these are the choices. Whereas if I'm making it the Sydney Opera House, your expectation is, oh, there's going to be a dosent there. Uh, I'm going to know exactly where I'm sitting when I get in there. And so my choices as a director and artist are going to be guided by that invitation. >> How has your understanding of your own identity, you were talking or lived experience, you were talking about the Pentecostal church, um, and other things about you, how has it shaped your aesthetic or access >> to art making? >> Yeah. You make me think about a thing that I've actually carried with me throughout my entire career is I make work for three people. I make it for my mother. Uh, and I should talk about my mom have me at 17. She's a black woman. She's black like me. Uh, she is a workingclass woman. She's worked for Walmart for 25 years. Wow. >> Now, uh, and she loves expression. She loves dance. She loves music. She loves theater. Uh, and I want my mom to be able to trace the narrative. >> Okay. So, I work in experimental form, but I'm thinking about my mom as someone who is an experimental person coming to it and getting something out of it. Uh, I want to surprise myself. So, I'm also one of my audiences. Mhm. >> Uh, and you know, I'm a queer man from the South, uh, who loves food and loves community and, uh, and is so grateful to be queer [laughter] and I want to and I want to experience those things on stage, but I also want to be surprised by what's happening. >> Uh, I don't want to know everything. And in fact, uh, this can be frustrating to some of my collaborators. I don't I always leave some part of the show unstaged with a set of rules and that's part of the ways I like let the collaborators surprise me in that moment. [laughter] >> It's one of my tools for surprise [snorts] and then there's this aesthetic uh goddess. Uh and so that's sort of like the uh the rigor the rigor the virtuosity and I sort of have that person in the audience as well. Uh, I mean that's my way of answering that question. [laughter] >> So, who is that aesthetic goddess though? >> Do you know? >> I Yeah, I know. I I know. >> She's a an angel sitting on your shoulder. >> Oh my god. No, she sits over there and she sits in the chair. It's like, okay, did you you might want to rehearse that again or you might want to go home and replant and do some deeper thinking around that. Uh and there and there are some people who uh who come to mind when I think about her. I think about we talking about Pina Bosch earlier. Yeah. >> About Pina Balos. I think about Susan Lorie Parks. Uh I think about Roberto Leage. >> Uh I think about George C. Wolf. So these are people whose work has >> um stunned me. >> Mhm. Uh, and I've studied closely enough to see some of what they're up to formally, >> right? >> Uh, and I want, even though I might not be doing the same thing formally, I want them to go, "Yeah, I see I see the rigor." Because when you look at their work, you see the rigor. You can, you don't know exactly what it's stemmed out of, but you you see what they're up to. >> How do you balance deeply personal expression with collective expression? I like I make solo work. Uh, and when I'm making that work, I usually begin with the text and I write it and rewrite it and try it out and invite some people to look at it with me. Uh, and those works are mine. >> They're mine. They're uh what vision do I want to have in the world? And when I invite people to be part of those works with me, uh that's part of the contract and I can be really clear about that. Uh, and I mix that with I'm sure enough to make your your dreams come true, you know, and I'm gonna bring all my special sauce. I'm gonna put it all on the table, but if you tell me as the co-c collaborator, oh, that's not doing it, that can go away. >> And and I've got my other place that I can put it. Uh, and so that keeps me balanced, you know, showing up for others, inviting others to show up for me. Uh, and uh, and for things that aren't meant to be performed, I have my poetry. >> Uh, and so I can also do this purely text. I'm like, oh my god, it's so juicy. What I love most about, they say the writing is in the rewriting, but in poetry, the writing is like in the distillation. >> Uh, and that is a really joyful solitude practice. Uh, >> I want to see some of those poems, Nigel. I've never seen those. >> You will? I'm I'm actually working on a a collection right now. >> Beautiful. >> Yeah, >> that's exciting. >> Speaking of showing up for other people, um, after a number of years being a freelance artist and also working inside larger institutions, you decided that you wanted to lead an institution. >> OH MY GOSH. >> AND so you've had a chapter now for 10 plus years, I think. 10 10 years at the Flea Theater. >> Um, and one of your earliest actions was to do a whole reframe of the mission of the organization. And can you talk a little bit about why you made that shift? >> Yeah. >> And what that's about? >> Yeah. Well, I think first I should mention that it wasn't early on. >> There's a feeling in the community that it happened early on, but it was actually a midway shift of the institution. Look, I uh made a decision to go into leadership because I did not know how to um make a living at my experimental work and I refused to put the pressure on my work to make me a living. I just thought that was not a calculus I wanted uh to work through. And so I just I looked around uh to say okay what could I how could I make a living in this form. Uh and I knew people uh could I could give a vision and people could follow it and and and I seemed to be really good at that. And you and I actually were having a conversation because I was interested in leadership about uh how that might happen here at art center. uh very exciting conversation and I wanted and I looked around and also saw that artistic directors uh maybe they it wasn't huge but they actually had a consistent living >> uh and the flea happened to be looking for a leader and I happened to need that kind of role in my life >> and was incredibly excited about the fact that there was a resident company and what did it mean to have people that returned show after go that you could deepen that work with. And >> uh and yeah, I mean the f I made $58,000 in my first year. I was so excited. [laughter] I was so so excited. I was so so excited. Uh and I had a resident company of a hundred performers. Right >> now, here's the the interesting thing about the flea is that it had been founded in the mid '9s and it had been found specifically as a response to the off Broadway scene um starting to get more and more commercial and the value being about can we transfer something to Broadway and embedded in the flea was anti- capitalist um um desire. [snorts] >> Yeah. Uh and and one of the ways that came up was a resident acting company that was unpaid. >> Okay. So I walked into an institution where there were a lot of people who were showing up to make their art and their artistry uh in an exchange in which it would allow them to pay their bills and here I am taking the job because it would allow me to pay the bills. Uh so there is tension immediately >> inside of that. >> Absolutely. And uh I'll just say one thing which is that I knew that part of my work was to change that uh relationship uh that that economy uh and I'm a I'm the man I am and I was doing it slowly. uh and I was uh having conversations with leadership and the board and you know slowly getting the stipened up and looking towards a vision of raising it in a really major way. Uh and all of that was much slower than my artistic vision which was a company of people that really looked demographically like New York City. >> Not just in terms of gender and ethnicity but also in terms of wealth. uh and that desire to hold those kinds of people in a company that was steeped in volunteerism. Um I didn't think through it enough. [laughter] Let's be really clear. I didn't think through it enough and I didn't have my uh crew with me inside. >> Uh and uh the company actually asked for a change, >> right? >> They said this place has to change faster than it's changing right now. >> Yeah. uh and that gave me the space to uh finally stand up and say either we do a radical change or I go uh and some so I have to first say that like that's five years in to a 10-year tenure. >> Okay. >> So five years in I'm moving slow. >> Okay. Uh and I also owe it to the company for saying think that happened faster because that also meant the development of my own uh soul. >> Yeah. >> In a very quick way. >> Uh and uh so when I when I when when I did was able to say that um some folks decided a new direction for the company was not what they wanted to be part of. They left. that was like huge part of our board and and such. Uh and um that was relieving because then the folks left were the people who were like okay let's really dig in. Uh and the uh board leadership at the time asked me if I had a vision for a new >> obviously I I mean I had a new a vision for a newly from the day I walked in and [snorts] I tried to work with people from the very first days and it was very clear >> that that vision was not the um not was what wanted to be supported. So, uh, we, um, I'm pausing because it's all like I I think the timeline of things is very important to understanding how we arrive to the new vision. Um those people who were left uh which I should name was five board members down from 17 board members and three staff members down from 12. So we're also in the pandemic and yeah >> these things are affecting things. >> Uh and we had three months of cash on hand. Mhm. >> Uh and the board said there's no there's no vision you can hand us in which we could uh pay a hundred a company of 100 actors. So they said we have to end that program. >> We have to end that version of fleet and we have to go in search of a new vision that you're going to give us. Uh so that was really hard because >> these are artists I invited to be in the institution >> and sudden and they and also the artists who said let's move quicker and and so help my development and help the institution's development are suddenly >> and it felt like it was punitive towards them. Yeah. >> Instead of >> Yes. >> what they were looking for. >> Right. So, here we are in this situation of the the rupture of that relationship uh and an investment and what can the new flea be? >> Yeah. >> And so we invited several of them uh to be part of a uh a vision group. So I walked in and said, "Look, the flea in 5 years can look like this." Uh, and they came in uh, along with some um, former writers and members of the theater community uh, for a six-month process that was about interrogating uh, a vision, building on it, offering other insights and restructuring the company. And where we landed 6 months later was oh we were asking the question like what can we actually achieve with the few resources we have and this beautiful little building downtown uh and where could we have a really great impact and a really fun impact uh and delicious and so we landed on um experimental art by black brown and queer artists which is so thrilling. >> Yes. Ah, it's thrill. It's thrilling like in the day-to-day now, but also in the moment of being able to think about a uh a downtown experimental venue in which black, brown, and queer is centered. >> Yes. >> Like you could almost a third space as well as a rigorous artistic space, a place where you could show up authentically in those, you know, identities. Uh yes. >> Yes. It's it was it was very very exciting to get there. Uh, and also a a place I I I think I've made for a younger me, >> you know, that when I showed up uh into the downtown scene, uh there were weeks or nights or special events in which those identities were centered. Uh but the sort of daytoday um investment uh and also we talked about lineage earlier that connection to lineage you know I was very lucky one of my early works was with you and James Scrugs and so here is James a middle-aged man you know making his work black man middle-aged black man and so here I have a sudden like connection and so how can that be uh not a one-off in the season that I'm coming, you know, to participate in, but how can that be the dayto-day? >> That is the season. >> That is it. >> Yes. [laughter] >> That's gorgeous. >> Yeah. So what is it meant to build a truly artist centered institution >> where it feels like maybe the flea before thought it was artist centered because there was the bats that were in residence and got to keep making works >> but you've gone a long distance from the model that was in place when you arrived >> and so what is this art truly artist centered institution that you're leading now? Yeah. And I think it's important to name that the model before was a really a producing centered model which is we're going to create opportunities for artists. >> Yes. >> Okay. We're going to choose some plays. We're going to choose some music. We're choose some performance art and people will be able to do it and get to do their thing. >> That's a way. That's a way. Uh and in this new model, it's what is the artist up to? What are they yearning hungry to do? and how can we partner with them to see that to fruition >> and provide appropriate resources to help them get there. >> Yes. Yeah. And and and also like we we call it dating because we haven't come up with a better way of talking about it, but like doing the front work as artist and producing institution before we say yes or moving forward to say, can we actually show up for each other through a process >> so that by the time we're like, okay, we're going to sign a legal contract that we're in this marriage, we're in this thing, we've spent a considerable amount of time saying, what are your values? What are you doing? thinking actually right now about um a recent uh commission and premiere we did with Jen Kidwell and I saw a workshop of like about 20 minutes uh of what was to become a full-length piece. uh and armed with this new vision for how to lead artistically and run the flea. You know, we spent 4 months of me showing up to dramaturgical meetings with her and her collaborators, asking questions of each other, talking about our working styles, talking about what she saw as success for the piece, uh talking about what we as producers saw as success. So, we could actually have all those conversations ahead of time before we say, "Okay, great. Now [snorts] we're going to spend another two years actually developing and getting it there. That allows for I mean honesty, transparency. I mean that could roll off all our values now as an institution. Uh but what I love most is that it also puts the lead artists in the role of they're seeing the full budget. They're seeing all the marketing ahead of time. There's no surprises. >> Yeah. And we both know as guest artist institutions, the worst is showing up or or being online and suddenly you see a poster for your show and no one's ever had a conversation with you. >> Absolutely. But you really felt that in Jen's show. I mean, there was this really wonderful warmth and energy and sense of trust in the space and the welcome when we arrived and the whole vibe >> and the show itself felt great in terms of the relationship between the artist and the audience and examined and yeah, you can feel all of that in the blood of the work. >> Yeah, she's fabulous. >> Totally. um in the face of organizations that are becoming more corporate and that are becoming more um embodied in um a commercial spirit instead of what nonprofit is supposed to sit inside of. >> There's a part of the Fle's mission which is we support and invest in experimental art by black, brown, and queer artists. And then we go further in the mission we're like uh so that they may share their vision in community with audiences. Mhm. >> And that to me is an essential part of art making is that we are aware that we are sharing it with someone. >> Yeah. >> Inviting someone in. And we have a responsibility as leaders uh who have a megaphone and can reach an audience to uh better articulate what the exchange is. >> Yeah. >> Because uh in the commercial realm it's quite clear. It's like you have met my desires [laughter] and so I'm gonna pay you $500 for that because you met or exceeded my desires, you know. >> Shoot, I'm just thinking about some I I I saw Gypsy and she exceeded my desires. [laughter] I didn't know it could be that good. Did not know Ros's Turn could be that good. Uh here have all the monies. Um and so in the in the experimental place, the virtuosity of the experimental artist uh has not yet been defined by the wider culture is worth your extra monies. [gasps] >> Yeah. >> Uh because it's the first time reading it, the first time seeing it, you know. Uh and so it is our our place as the leaders to help um audiences and funders understand that value and exchange uh to connect with those people who already have a sense of that value that the experimental is a place of that they want to keep part of you we're in New York so talking about the vibrant electricity of New York. What why do people one of the reasons people are pulled here is the innovations that happen in art and culture. uh and the ways that like when you've got this critical mass of people from different disciplines and different cultures making so close to each other in proximity >> and that's the other thing like so if I was >> you know director of culture at the state or city level like the affordability of um risk-taking artists to be in close proximity to that's something I would be looking at. Yeah, >> I would be looking at housing solutions as part of uh also the artist practice solutions because one of the things I have noticed I was lucky enough to arrive in New York where people did live in more proximity to each other and now experience artists living with such distance. >> Yeah. >> That that bumping up against the practice and the rigors of folks is happening less. >> Downtown really did used to be centered in a 20 block radius where work was happening. >> Yes. And I think I do agree with you. I think that there's been an expansion of the field in some ways, but it it's been stretched to where it's hard to feel a a connection amongst ourselves in the same way that existed in the '9s and even in the 2000s. >> Yeah. And I've seen that the the impulse and work and pedagogy of downtown, which is the experimental and the risk, is now living in the academy, >> which is that's fabulous. That's great. People are learning it. they are practicing it uh but they're practicing it separate from the lineage so it's over there uh and so what we're talking about is like how are we on top of each other like >> I'm sure you have stories like me where you just walking down the street and there's a performance happening like oh and it's experimental so there's always an extra seat so you just walk over you're like what are you doing [laughter] oh my god you're doing that I mean ended up in a bread and puppet parade just cuz I asked someone what are you working on he's like I'm working on this thing do you and I'm suddenly I'm in the parade [laughter] you like that I don't experience that happening as much anymore and and so that becomes part of the vision of the flea >> right >> where I lead and can help to uh hold on to some of that territory and terrain somehow. >> So when you're embracing success I mean embracing experimentation and risktaking how do you define success >> um in an organization? Yeah. Well, first we start with the artist and what how the artist is defining success. >> Mh. >> Uh and then we start with and then and then it's like as a institution like are we actually connecting this artist's vision and voice to folks that can hear it. >> Uh and yeah, so it's I don't want to call it a marketing problem, but it's really about like developing uh a community. >> Yeah. And because there because it's not just sort of a community that you can just drop into physically and be there and be surrounded by it. We now have to say, "Hey, you are interested in this. They're interested. You have come on together. Come get together." And I think the greatest success we've had uh in the over the last five years is uh developing that relationship over a year and a half of inviting people to the development of the work, >> you know, so that they are feeling like they're participating as it grows. >> They're stepping in along the way and they're in relationship. >> Yeah. >> And so they can't wait to invite other people to the finished product. >> Yeah. We always worked in that iterative way at here of growing projects over years and inviting people in along the way. >> Yes. >> That's how I got connected with Taylor Mack. >> It was a whip, a work in progress of the young ladies of >> and I went, this performer is phenomenal. [laughter] >> Got to keep showing up. >> I used to always say around this idea of the audience that we're trying to find, you know, well, we're only trying to get like 2,000 people to come see this. We're in a city of 8 million. Yeah, >> we should be able to find the 2,000 people that would be amazed and intrigued like we are by this artist. >> People aren't watching TV with ads. They're not subscribing to papers. So, how do you how do you find out what's going on that you might be interested in? Like that's also part of the job of the institution is there are a lot of curious, adventurous folks out there. Uh, and how do they know? >> How do they know? How do they find out? Where do you see art's potential to drive social or cultural change? >> Narratives are changed by storytellers and artists [clears throat] >> and we script ourselves. You know, you are born into a script and narrative uh that your parents are or your caregivers are providing to you. Uh and then you're faced with other media and story outside of that. Uh it might be through a faith group. It might be through a Saturday morning cartoons. Uh it might be through a speech you hear at school. Uh and so I think one of the reasons we have such a very tense culture wars in this country is that people understand that narratives matter. Uh and when I say narrative, I don't mean necessarily >> ABC narrative. Yes. Uh, but I mean that the the artist ability to help you see or smell or think like, oh, I could leap like that. You I do my walks are often about movement and the way we move in the world. Uh, and it's about that sense of like, oh, I could actually I did this walk once where we got on a plane and the walk, but to get on the plane, we walked very slowly through LaGuardia airport. And everyone knows when you go to the airport, you want to get to the gate as fast as you can and sit down and [laughter] rest. And the reason I asked us to walk very slowly and had us do that is uh the majority of the walk participants were white and we were going into inner city Detroit. And so I wanted them to experience conspicuousness ahead of experiencing conspicuousness. [laughter] So the power of the work uh of the artist is in changing the narratives. >> Yeah. and bringing awareness. You know, >> that's fascinating. How do you hold the tension between art is expression and art as activism? [snorts] >> I hold it very uncomfortably. [laughter] >> But look, I think that again, it's about the invitation because I do both. Uh there are times when I'm not interested in documentation. I'm not interested in the rigor of your move. Uh, I'm thinking now about a piece we made for Trayvon closely after his murder, Trayvon Martin. The invitation was for everyone to participate in this piece at their own level because what was most important is that we were coming together as a community of uh art makers and non-art makers but all creative people >> to say we are here and we see and you must reckon with this. Okay. So that is work that is that is first and foremost about social change and social activism. >> Okay. And then there is work that is about uh our uh divinity. Uh and that is the work where I really am looking for aesthetic virtuosity because in those moments I want uh the audience or the participant to go oh wow look what is possible. I mean both of them are about possibilities. What's possible when we gather together and insist on something? And what is possible when we train ourselves and become deeply disciplined? Oh, whoa. Because in those moments, someone sitting there is thinking, "Oh, wow. Yes, I really do want to write my book or I really do want to be able to dance at my daughter's wedding." You know, [laughter] all I have to do is like devote yourself like Whoa. Sorry. Sorry. I'm not sorry. Why am I sorry? >> No, >> I think I'm sorry because I feel I feel so passionate. >> Yeah. >> Uh, and that's okay. >> How do you nurture yourself to ensure you continue to grow and develop as an artist? >> Well, that's so funny. I don't know if you wrote this question imagining that I would talk about the fact that I'm leaving the field. Uh because me as an artist what I have recognized is that for me many people I think could work really well in the way that uh most um live performance is produced. Most live performance is produced like you develop the piece and then you've got once it's developed and someone says oh it's production ready then it's like go boom we're off to the races you know here's four weeks of rehearsal five if you're lucky and a couple previews and then it's premiering and everyone gets to decide whether it's good or bad and we'll decide whether it continues in the culture based on that uh way of making doesn't serve me >> uh I think I got pretty good at it because there's a part of me that wants to please and was a very good student and so I saw the form and the formula of doing it and I was like oh I can do that look at me do it uh and I I have not gotten out of it what I had hoped to which was um the continuation and building of community. So, I have these micro communities that came together under intense pressure to premiere a thing and we did it and we're all so proud of each other and amazing and then we scatter to go and do it again. That's not the life I want to lead. >> It was never the life I wanted to lead. It was a system that I participated in because I thought it could help me lead that life. Uh, and so now I'm going to say thank you for these amazing 25 years in this kind of field and I'm going to pursue artmaking in a different way. >> Um, >> can you share what that is? >> I I'm I'm looking at slower works. I'm looking at the timing of the soul. Uh I'm looking at very intimate work on >> really as a one-on-one work and some small group work. >> Uh and I'm also looking at uh how I make my own works uh and and timelines that the work is asking for. So this is a different kind of producing uh visual. I I I I think and I have more work to do here. think it's closer to um a studio practice in which I'm just returning to the work and returning to the work and letting it reveal when it's ready. My vision is that like there's like a a curtain over the working space and everyone's like, "Oh, they're working in there. They're working on there." And then one day when the work is ready to be engaged with, the curtain rises and everyone in the neighborhood goes, "Oo, it's time. We're invited. We're invited. We can go in." And then we go in. Uh, but there's no like there's the curtain's going to raise every four months or every once a year. We don't know. >> We don't know. >> Will it still be here in New York City? >> I don't know. I don't know that. I don't I don't really um I find New York City a very hard place to live in. >> I love the people here. I love the intersections of making and who you get to be inspired by. And so New York will always be part of my life. Uh but I I actually cry a lot in this city. There's so much disconnection and hurt and uh sickness. >> Yeah. >> And it it feels overwhelming to um address that. the only because that you um for me to show up for what I've committed to do each day, I have to ignore so much. >> That's not fair to uh the other humans around me or to myself. >> Yeah. >> Uh and so I often think about where can I be where I can actually be present >> and New York doesn't for me doesn't allow that. I'm not I'm not as comfortable ignoring you. Maybe if maybe if so this is might give you a hint of what's in my future. I'm like maybe if my if my life in New York on a day-to-day level was all walking distance from where I live, maybe New York would work for me >> in my future. And every so often I might venture further than that >> because you would have those connections to the people around you most immediately. Like I'm like I literally am thinking like there are people in my black I've seen them for eight years uh and have done nothing more than a pleasantry and that that's not how I grew up. I grew up in a place where we >> connected. [snorts] >> Yeah. And we had each other >> and so I feel uh separated from a part of myself. >> Become a very good student of New York and of [laughter] of ways. It's time to let that go. >> Yeah. I think it can be lonely um to not take in the humans that are around you and it's de dehum continues to dehumanize us. >> Yeah. >> Is there anything you'd want to say that we haven't talked about? >> Yeah. >> Well, I want to thank you for a place to be honest. [laughter] It's truly like when you know that like you're part of a something that's being offered out is like here we're we're looking at this, >> you know, uh there's a responsibility in this these kinds of moments. And so your uh desire to make this record and inviting me to be part of it, that's pretty special. >> Well, you're so special. couldn't do it without you in this conversation and what you've brought to all of us. So, thank you Nigel. >> Thank you Kristen friend >> friend >> and thanks to hellound for hosting us and please come check in some more torches. So friends, welcome back. We have a little surprise today. We have a little postcript to our interview that we did with Nigel earlier this year. Nigel's going to share some exciting updates. >> Thanks Kristen. Uh it's very exciting indeed. So, I've been in a wonderfully moment of evolving as the flea and I have been looking at the timeline of my stepping down as artistic director. Uh, I'm really excited to to share that yes, I'm stepping down at the end of December. Uh, but I plan to continue to play a role in the transition at the flea and stay on the board. uh specifically there's been an evolution around my pole in practice to social work and I'm looking at how to integrate uh social work and social practice into my ongoing creative practice. Uh I have several uh works that are going to be moving forward next year in 2027 that I'm really excited to be digging into. Uh, not least of which is continuing with Beyond the Stardust with the Illustrious Blacks and a new project with Justin Tranter that we're calling The Great Thirst. Uh, and so I want to continue to be pouring into those works and um, really, as we talked about, uh, the way that my works include like relevant topics, you know, and are sometimes embedded in community, how to bring my social work passion uh, and work into that. >> That's really exciting. And I'm really your work has always included this thoughtfulness towards the activities that happen in our lives and their impact on us and the realness of that. And so I think this is just a really exciting marriage that you're going to be exploring. >> Yeah, me too. Thank you Kristen for doing this project >> and thanks for coming back to chat with us again. Chick [music] [applause] oh. [music] [applause] Ooh. [applause] >> [music]