A Conversation with Hanne Tierney - TORCHES: 30+ Years of Downtown Performance

What kind of legacy do you hope that your work leaves? >> Oh, that it changes puppetry. >> Oh, [laughter] ooh. >> [applause] [music] >> Welcome friends. I'm Kristen Martin and this is Torches. Today we have the unconventional Hana Turney. Hana is an award-winning and internationally acclaimed puppet artist and curator and founder director of Five Miles. I'm very excited to speak with her today. Welcome, Hana. >> Thank you, Kristen. I'm very excited to be here. [laughter] >> So, you lived in Soho for like 50 years. you've been making work for even longer. How did you So, how did you come to be in this downtown performance world? Because basically, I've always I'm a failed writer. And I started to think if I can't write well like George Elliot, maybe I should look at 3D writing if it could be done. >> So, I actually took a studio and started playing around. And this is 1966. And after about 3 years, I saw my system. I saw that I could actually produce um an emotionally intense gesture out of any kind of fabric or material or nonrepresentational object um over a long distance. And I didn't it didn't even show a human being to lift it up or move it. M >> well you know my system and that's um and when I saw that then I thought that's going to be what I work on. I I love this idea and so I worked for a couple of years until I could really handle it. And then I started performing in Soho because that that was the time of um the the old kitchen was still there Franklin Furnace >> and I I sort of merged into being an artist and so >> you know we moved into so in ' 69. >> Could you explain your system because it's so innovative and incredible. Well, go back to another question that you had asked is um why did I call it theater without actors? >> Okay. >> Because um when I thought about it in the theater actors basically demonstrate a text, not demonstrate but you know illustrate a text >> with their gestures, with their movement, with their expressions. And because of my system, I realized I can do that with any anything. And the way this is done, there's a um a grid system with screw eyes in a ceiling. Strings go through these screw eyes and they come all the way down to the floor. Whatever I attach. Oh, yeah. And then the these strings are on the side of the stage and it be they become an instrument. We sort of play maybe 80 strings or maybe even a hund. And we play these strings almost like an instrument. And everything that we have these strings attached to on the stage floor totally goes into their gestures, their movement, into their drama, into the narrative. And it's really basically a theater without actors except with things. >> And when you started making this in 1969, I think you just said, in this way, >> um, did you position this into a theater or performance context or were you positioning this into a visual art context? >> No, that wasn't at all on my mind. [clears throat] >> Okay. the visual art context except that um since it's not very figurative, it becomes sculptural, you know, it becomes sort of like a huge sculptural installation on the stage and then things start moving and gesturing. But it never occurred to me to put it into visual theater. I thought of performing. >> Yeah, I like that. >> Yeah. And and it's non-figurative, I think, is important to say. Yeah, it's non figurative. I have done figures, but um it doesn't suit me. >> Mhm. >> And it's not that interesting. Of course, you can make a puppet like figure, make a gesture saying, "Oh my god, my husband left me." But, [laughter] you know, but to do it with a let's say a construction rope or a 2x4, that's it actually becomes art then. >> Yes. And did you have text in those early days when you were working or was it solely the movement of the objects with music? >> No, for me it's theater. >> Yes. >> And it's a text. >> So you've always had text and you've always had music and you've always had these >> always. And I've used some old symbolist plays like Oscar Wild Sal and >> the seagull. But I've always since I'm a failed writer, I've always written [laughter] my own text. How has that evolved as you've worked inside that same system? How has the way that you've worked with the materials or the way that you've thought about story evolved over the years? >> You know, like everybody does who becomes um who does something over a period of time, you simply become better. I simply could control extremely emotional gestures in, >> you know, like as I said, in a 2x4. >> Mhm. You have to keep doing things before you can understand it. But then for me that was sort of it, you know, if I can make a 2x4 be absolutely desparing of having no more movement but this one back and forth and the audience is oh my god no that's so sad. [laughter] Then you know you've you know you've sort of shown the audience something meaning that the audience has knows that sense of despair >> that they could read it and >> and the block of wood. >> Yeah. >> Yes. >> Um, how do you balance that kind of experimentation of finding out how these materials express themselves with your craft? How do you bring those together? >> I think if you experiment or any artist who's experimenting with any ideas, visual or what, whichever way, we use what is expedient. And if it's a craft thing, we use it. Mhm. >> And if you don't have it, then you know, you've fiddled with it. But yeah, I'm I'm not really a craft person. I'm very inexact and nothing ever fits properly. And >> and your your work is very risky and the work you did at Five Miles was also very risky. So, how do you encourage that kind of risk both in your own work and in your curating? >> Well, I didn't think my work was risky. I thought it was sort of great that I saw I could do that. [laughter] I was like, "Oh my god, it's actually f I think though I don't think my audience thinks I'm doing risky work." It's just that they've never seen anything like it before. >> Definitely. It's completely unique. >> They get it. They get it and they think, "Oh, that's so interesting." and they feel it. And um no, but I think with artists, you know, especially sort of young artists um I always sort of did a little missionary work to to get them go a little beyond what they were going to really show and and say, "But you could and you might." And >> so you feel you were pushing them to try to push things more to push to go outside the box more. How did you deal with failure when that happened? >> Well, I don't think I've ever thought about this much, but >> I love that. >> Whatever they, [laughter] you know, whatever they do, especially with younger artists. >> Mhm. >> You just feel very you have to sort of be appreciative and and let them know they're on the way and >> yeah, >> doing well. >> I What is failure in our world anyway? It means nobody what nobody likes what you do. If you think what you did is good, there's no there is simply no category for failure. >> Mhm. >> If you feel in your guts this is good. Then there's no moment for failure. >> That is a wonderful centering of confidence. [laughter] Yes. >> You have to. >> Mhm. >> Yeah. >> Yes. It's true. At Five Miles, you worked primarily with women and people of color. Why did you make that choice there? >> I saw that question and I immediately went into our website and checked the recent, you know, what or not the recent whatever we've done previous >> and it's about 50/50 on the Yeah. Yeah. I don't think I was in any way wanting to show women, but the the that we showed so many people of color had to do with Five Miles being in Crown Heights. >> Mhm. >> And it's a traditionally black neighborhood. And so it was very natural for black artists to come and show their portfolio. You know, they weren't shy about it. We were in their territory. >> Yeah. >> So I got to see a lot of good work that >> other people probably didn't. And also Brooklyn has a lively black art world. >> So it was nice to be connected with that. >> Yeah. And you once said that uh the five miles was activated by the people who came through the door. So that sounds like an example of that, the artists that came through the door to share their portfolios. >> Of course. >> And I always felt when I visited that it was so much a part of the neighborhood and that you really welcomed people. I remember kids doing homework, you know, in the front of the gallery and like what a what a feeling of welcome you created. >> Well, I have to tell you one thing art could do in this case because art is a public if you have a gallery, you know, it's a public activity. >> So therefore there was sort of no border as to who could come in. But we gave the key to the gallery to two young women, girls, so they could make it into college so they could use our internet, they could use our computers and they came late at night because they were, you know, busy working, >> right? >> Both of them, one is a teacher now and the other one is a fabulous poet. >> That's incredible. >> Yeah. And they were there, you know, people didn't have internet. I mean, who could afford it? >> Mhm. But so but that that is what art could do because it's a public space and there was no shyness for people to come in and I thought good for art if it can do that. >> What year did you put five miles in Crown Heights? >> Um 19 20009 >> 99. >> And how did gentrification change the way that it felt in the neighborhood over the years you were there? For years and years there were the audiences at openings were completely at ease with each other. Complained about the work being not good enough to each other whatever >> but really at ease. And suddenly I could tell when we had a black artist showing >> it was mostly black people at the opening. When we had a white artist showing or white artists it was mostly white people. It was suddenly everybody became shy with each other and didn't feel that ease anymore because it was a majority suddenly or something was happening. >> Oh, that's interesting and sad. >> Oh, I so completely saw that. >> Mhm. >> And you know, we did a lot of performances outdoors on the sidewalk. It was exactly the same thing. The white people would go to the other side of the street if it was a black performance or mostly black people there. Mhm. >> The same for um black people. >> Wow. >> I think we're basically so uncomfortable with each other. It's outrageous. >> Yeah. I think it's sad. >> Yeah. >> One of the great things about the subway in New York City is that you run into everyone from every walk of life and we're all on the same terms on the subway. We all know >> and we tread if we have to. And yeah, I agree with you. >> You spoke about resisting the pressure of growth when you were running five miles. Did that have to do with capitalist expectations? >> No. I think maybe it had to do with my incompetence. [laughter] Maybe that just like [laughter] I mean you were always very centered around welcoming experimental practices um in the face of commodification working against that but but not so consciously just because it's so much more interesting >> to see new things happen or to see somebody really straining and struggling to go beyond what they've understood. Mhm. >> It's just so much more interesting. >> How did you balance continuing to make your own work at the same time as you were running Five Miles and curating? >> Ah, because it was a very wonderful thing at Five Miles. The back of the gallery was my studio. >> Mhm. And because of that, you know, it was obviously and after a while and because I really did love running five months, >> I just gave up going to festivals, traveling >> and I only performed in New York as you know and and also I could work as slowly as I wanted to until something was ready and then I could perform it at five miles for a month. And >> so I I sort of had given myself really a very good way of making work that I could do. >> Yeah. When you had your own space, why did you decide to come work like it here? Like we did I think three of your shows or just to >> No, because you have a different audience, right? >> You know, the audience in my audience were all the mostly the artists of course from the old Soho and so forth. But you had a real audience, you know, people who have jobs and [laughter] come to see performances at here. And I absolutely like that. You know, you have to see how people can react to your work that are not insiders. >> Mark Bmoody Joseph recently said, "How do we create conditions for artists to guide us forward to the other side of fear?" Do you have thoughts or reactions to that? Well, I sort of have an immediate reaction. What makes us think that artists aren't as fearful as we are? And what makes us think that they know what the other side of fear is? I [laughter] mean, if if we want to go there, we have to go back to the Renaissance and, you know, and and paint Madonna and long-suffering Christs and who promise happiness. But I don't see how artists can do this or should do this. I think they should do their work, think about things. Art is a field and the field periodically, you know, needs a little kick in the teeth and change >> and that's a good art aren't missionaries. >> How how do you think the spirit of downtown, the experimentation and the risk? Um, has it changed? H how has it changed in the time that you've been working? I I just want to say one thing about the spirit downtown. One thing that was important in Soho was that it really created minimalism because the we could get these big lofts and suddenly space became an object and you know you'd put a 2x4 diagonally across a huge space and we'd all go oh my god you know in awe but but it changed our perception >> and really as as a culture really we can now see things slightly differently. you know, you can see like a white dot in a black space and feel odd. And I think um that was the big thing about downtown. That was the experimentation that went on, you know, but I think the experimentation is going on all the time in art. And look after Black Lives Matter. >> Suddenly the galleries were showing black artists cuz you know, oh my god, we have to do something. And look at how wildly people went into identity paintings. Wild stuff experimenting. What would be ident? What would I see as identity? I think that goes on all the time. >> We just get a little bit of stuck. What was our generation's big experimentation? >> And do you think you're seeing it now that the spirit of downtown has changed that it's it's still happening? And where do you see it? No, I think minimalism is young artists don't even know the names of Richard. Who's Richard Sarah? Who's Richard Nonus? You know, I think like in all these kind of movements. >> Mhm. >> They they belong to the history books. They have influenced lots of people, but they certainly disappear. >> Oh, interesting. How would you identify what movement is happening right now? >> A lot of searching. >> Mhm. a tremendous amount of searching. And you know, I'm I don't mean to be prejudiced one way or the other, but I do kind of keep looking what black artists are doing. There's um a Jessica Pekka, a black woman artist showing in a gallery in Chelsea. She has figured out a kind of a wonderful merger like a almost like a marriage of abstraction and figurative. >> Mhm. >> It's beautiful work and you know I thought oh god it's so exciting to think that maybe there is a common ground between the two and she's doing it. She's, you know, each painting you can tell she's been playing a little more with the idea and where it's going. >> I have to go to that exhibition. >> Yeah, it's fabulous. >> I uh I wonder about in live performance or in puppetry, what do you see? What what what movement or action do you see that you think is interesting right now? >> I don't really know about puppetry. I have to tell you I I was hoping that a lot of puppeteers would start working because you know I as you know I I work life size and full stage. It really is a theatrical production >> and I was hoping a lot of puppeteers would take parts of it and and get a little bigger and get away from five puppeteers moving a teeny little stick puppet, you know. Um but I puppetry is really just kind of [laughter] you know it's it's doing what it's always done. >> Yeah. >> Bit differently. Maybe the puppeteers are wearing white clothes instead of black clothes. But it's it's not willing to change its own systems. It's manipulation and manipulation systems. >> Mhm. I don't know. >> How do you define success as an artist now? And has that definition evolved for you? >> No, I think I think for every artist, as long as show the work, it doesn't matter where you show the work. Even in your bedroom, invite people. As long as your your work is part of a dialogue, as long as people talk about it, as long as they want to tell other people, go see it. >> Mhm. >> That's success. You can't measure it otherwise. What in money, you know. >> Yeah. >> No, I I think um you can just hope that people want to see your work. They're interested to find out what you're doing. >> Isn't much else. >> How has your practice changed as you've aged? No, in a way I'm concentrating now on writing >> and thinking I'm going to see what that will do for me. No, I I've not perform anymore. It's because of this overhead grid system. It's like up and down a ladder, up and down a ladder. And I'm just done with up and down a [laughter] ladder. >> I understand. >> And I've done enough, you know, it's now it's now in everybody knows it. If somebody wants to relate to it, come to my studio. I've shown another puppet Japanese puppeteer. I've shown my system and she does fabulous work with it. >> How do you work against our society's celebration of young artists, overseased artists? How do you think about that? >> What Why did you say our society? You don't think that's that's not been the same all the time? That's true. >> Of course, the big sellers, they'll always sell because it's about investment. So, leave that out. >> And the young artists, if there's something about the work that has made a big difference in the field, they'll always be mentioned forever. But it's a fence. It's a fetish. They they'll disappear. And um you know, what's left is work that changed something, >> right? I I think this is not a a thing that happens now. It's just always happens. The young are pushy. They still have confidence. [laughter] >> How do you think um an artist can have a truly sustainable life? What do we need to change in our society to help that happen? >> No, I don't I feel differently about that. I feel >> um unless you are you have a big ego, you're a good PR person, you don't have two complicated thoughts about your own work. You're better off taking a day job you like and making your work. >> What else? I mean, don't forget, nobody's asking us to be an artist. And the work we make um is more or less an inside job for our tribe >> for people who understand about experimentation and avanguard. But I I think we have to sort of put up with that. Mhm. >> We're small manufacturers and you know we have to try and either sell our product or keep improving it quietly by ourselves and work on an oil rig [laughter] or whatever we have to do. >> Why did you choose to make the work you chose to make? Where did that come from inside you? What and what what what satisfied you about making it? In the beginning I I think this I still can get totally excited by um by a gesture in a to you know something on the street and suddenly it's a it's a gesture of human intensity emotional intensity the way it's positioned the way it's lying there I it just really excites me and when I understood I could do this actually >> um you know present that that was my big moment. >> And the words that would accompany that, did they express the emotion or story that Yeah. where how did these things how does the thrill of that object coming to life connect to the words that you were writing? >> Well, it it is like an actor on the stage. >> It's because the gestures I'm presenting and obtaining from the objects. Mhm. >> They do after all also illustrate a text or in order to make it fully understand to the audience the text gives the context. >> And did you >> the words give the context? >> Did you start with the materials and the objects or the words first? >> No, I sometimes actually started with a play. I mean after I understood what I could do then plays occurred to me >> and I thought oh that's so there's a metallink play called uh it's about death the intruder >> and I just completely understood that I could do this you know by not using human beings um that it would be very mysterious very worrisome about death being around and yeah sometimes it's really a text that I find >> and what made you choose choose to speak that text just you and life as opposed to recording that text and moving the objects in response because it's a very different energy. >> Oh, so different. >> Yeah. >> Because my voice activates my hands. >> Oh, >> how they move these strings. >> Mhm. >> And then I I have to tell you something. I was in a festival in BF in Belgrad >> and there were a lot of Russians and I did the seagull and afterwards the Russians all walked up to me and they said you know we must have seen the seagull 20 times but we've never fully listened to the text but because I spoke all the lines I edited a little bit. I mean, some you don't have to do, >> but because I spoke it, it was like they were reading it, >> thinking, >> "Oh, [clears throat] look at that." That made a big impression on me? >> I love that. And were you thinking about when when it was your own text, did was it the text or the objects first? I'm just curious. I know sometimes you work from place but when it was your own text that you created what >> then it was a text. >> It was the text first too. So it's always text first. >> Yeah. It's so interesting because I think of your work so visual and I think I I always hear the text and the text is taking me on a journey, but I think so much about the objects and the these things coming to life in these compelling and intriguing ways and mysterious ways because I never gave up longing to be a writer [laughter] and always knowing I wasn't good enough. What kind of legacy do you hope that your work leaves? >> Oh, that it changes puppetry. >> Oh, [laughter] >> for thinking about the object. >> If it changes puppetry, then people will broaden it. Make it make it really >> an art. make it really kind of not something you just crack up laughing because somebody can, you know, take a hand and scratch their wooden head. I don't know. I I just wish puppetry would take up and change my system, but know that it can be done differently. >> I do think there are people that have been inspired by your work. Certainly certainly like Basil Twist and a bunch of the work that he's done with fabric I feel is in conversation with your work. >> He's the first person to say that. >> Yeah. and Normandy Sherwood. Um, I know you came to see her psychic self-defense with all the curtains and the fabric and all the characters. >> I love that. She was terrific. And then I said this this Japanese artist who's >> doing gorgeous things with abstraction with with the stringing system. >> So that would be good. >> But you know, other than that, >> it's given me a lot of pleasure. >> Are what are you thinking of your next chapter right now? What are you thinking is coming next? >> Well, since I've just moved to the Bronx, I think it's time for me to get that place in shape. [laughter] When you left the other day, I was going to say, "Do you want to come in and see my place?" But I knew it was time for you guys to head out. Um, >> well, I'd love to come back another time and see your place. >> No, I'm sort of keeping myself open. I I like writing a lot and for no reason at all. I don't have anything in mind like oh my god I have to find a publisher. Not at all but I enjoy >> sentences and I enjoy changing them and looking at them again and again and I'm sort of doing that. >> The last piece that I saw of yours which I think is the last piece that you made at Five Miles >> Yeah. was very political and it was thinking a lot about violence in our culture and these younger generations and how they're coming up into that. Um, I hadn't felt before that I was seeing work that was like political and in response to things that were happening. Um, could you talk about that direction change in your work? >> Well, it I don't know if that's a direction change, but it was a very important piece for me of all my pieces. I think it was the most important. I've been thinking for years what we're doing to men that we train them to be killers. That whenever our leaders have a little conflict, send in the guys, they'll kill each other. We see who's left. Well, what else is war? Send in the guys and they will kill each other. And the men don't complain. I They should unionize internationally and say, "No, we're not doing that because they're just out there killing each other." But look at the Ukraine and the Russians. Yeah. >> And we've done that to the men, you know, we really have sort of >> allocated them into their position. Small wonder they get a little resentful about the women being home with the babies, [laughter] you know, say I'll bust them around, but you know, like I can understand that. >> Mhm. >> If men really sit back and think about the role they play in >> in our civilization, it's pitiful. >> Mhm. It's been a great issue with me for a long time. >> Is there other work that you're making right now that is in response to things that you're seeing around you that you're having realizations about? >> No. What I really actually I tell you what I would like to do is I have a very pretty extensive video of this piece and I would like to do something with that. >> You know, get it out, get people to >> the piece that we were just talking about that's from Five Miles. Yes. >> Yeah. Yeah. and get people to really and I'm working with Hana, you know, Hannah Vasineseski, the video. >> So, I'll go to Berlin and we're going to sort of try and see what we could do with that piece. >> So, would you perform again then if you were to bring that piece back? >> No. Hana thinks we should do something on the internet with it. >> Oh, interesting. >> That's fascinating. >> And you know, she she would understand what we can do. That was incredibly >> important to me to to do that. I I don't even know how people generally understood it but I just felt I needed to say that you know look at the men. >> Mhm. >> They're just cannon foder for the societies. >> Yeah. It was a very powerful piece. >> Yeah. Men are indulctrinated [music] believing it's glorious. [singing and music] >> Is there anything that we didn't talk about that you want to talk about? >> I don't think so. We pretty much said what I [laughter] know. I don't know any more than this. No, I I will say that um having worked a lot with artists, you know, curating and so forth, >> I it's really been a fabulous Well, you know, that >> because it really sharpens your own mind considerably. You know, you you know what works, what doesn't work, what is really important, might be important, where they need little help. I've really liked that. >> It's been very enjoyable. >> Yeah. I'm thinking of maybe curating a show for a gallery in um in April or March and I I want to curate a show called Hope >> and see what I can come up with artists, you know, what artists what they can come up with. What is our idea of hope right now? Who's got hope, right? I mean, >> we need hope desperately right now. >> Yeah. I want to I want to go to >> thinking about curating a show called Hope. I want to go to that show. >> So, I'll put my mind to it at some point. >> Well, I'm deeply grateful for your work and the inspiration that you've provided me personally and so many other people for so many years. Hana. >> Well, yeah, but the one thing you understand is about making work and all those little tortures and struggles you know perfectly well. >> Thank you. >> No, thank you. Uh, thanks for joining us and thanks to Hal Round for hosting us and we hope you'll come back to more of torches. Mat oh hey. [music]