A Conversation with Ayumu Poe Saegusa -- TORCHES: 30+ Years of Downtown Performance

So hungry hungry spirit is one of the good motivation for artists right >> that's especially downtown theater world >> yes >> I know many people getting tired with that later and then difficult to survive and keep having that hungry splits but that soy general income is great but also not sure it's best way for art. >> Mhm. >> Or not. >> [music] [applause] [music] >> Welcome friends. I'm Kristen Mertin and this is Torches. Today we have beloved downtown lighting designer Ayu Saigusa, usually known as Po. Po is an acclaimed lighting designer for puppetry, opera, and theater, as well as resident lighting designer of here. I'm really excited to speak with my longtime collaborator today. Welcome, Po. >> Yes. Yes. >> Excited to have you here. >> Yes. Okay. >> How did you come to be in downtown performance? There's many reasons to I mean my reason to be joining downtown world is uh kind of same reason the reason I came to this country I think so and I okay I did not come to this country on purposely to be downtown theater in the downtown world actually I have no actually choice and [laughter] then the only choice was here at center at that point. Yeah. Uh back in the day, uh I was kind of learning or being also professional in a downtown world of Tokyo area, but also I'm like joining a lighting company. >> In Japan, there's a little bit the different system in this country. And then I'm learning not yes I should say learning to yeah as a apprentice of under the master >> and then there's hierarchy and then each company in general like lighting company has master and then there's a pyramid under that master each company and each company has different method or different client different world >> such kind of world and then yeah also there's kind of general uh award award of like beginners award of like like newcomers award or such kind of things. >> Yes. >> Uh award of lighting design was like most of people is getting that award in like 40s. >> Mhm. >> Then I was back then I was 20s and then I want to be lighting designer but that I have to wait 20 years to be debut as a professional lighting designer. >> Uh not in a down world in a commercial world in Japan. So then I was thinking how I should quickly climb up that pyramid. Um then that one way is like I should get some experience which no one has in Japan. >> Um then I know I thought okay I should go to New York for one year >> for an year and then came back to Japan and then that experience is which no one had. So maybe help me to climb up that pyramid quicker. Um yes that was one reason but it could be London or other cities. So then I like the musical rent. So I was interested in what kind of world is it? New York. So it's rich. So what kind of Yeah. Yes. That's kind of promised to be downtown world now I could say. But uh in my image rent arrived already Broadway. So of course I want to be Broadway designer. That's kind of my I wanted to join >> to like a bigger theater to have some connection or I can reach to that world quicker. Of course I imagined but no connections in Tokyo people. Yeah, there's many writing designer imported Broadway musical to Japan and designed but uh yeah like my master has also connection to that kind of people but >> since you know in Japanese that kind of situation is kind of hard like uh maybe first day when I went to his company he said and I asked many questions because I just working in the downtown world so I just asked him but he said stop don't ask me anything just follow me that's kind of okay kind of not that kind of mild way maybe shut up or something like that [laughter] so and then so difficult to get the direct connection to the Broadway world but I want it and then my theater basically I was working is also like a thousand seat theaters so yeah I have some connection for both world but like commercial world and also downtown world in Tokyo but still I wanted to be like my imagination of New York is of course it's Broadway but I couldn't find any connections because my master rejected me to connect to such kind of people and then I tried to find a way to be in New York somehow and then I hired one agent to introduce some intern visa it's for like a doctor or other doctor is internship and also >> yeah like Wall Street and such kind of >> Oh really? >> Yeah. So it's internship business internship company and no one has a connection >> to theater world in that kind of agent world as well. I see. And then only one agent told me like okay I can try. So then I asked him to find theater who is looking for internship. Um then he picked up several options but one is Buffalo it's New York but it's not New York New York right so something like that and then he found like black dark website of [laughter] here art center and then introduced me so then I start contact to here art center >> then but I've never been New York and I didn't realize until cuz back then website is not huge and even I couldn't see any you know grand plan and such and photo was also limited and only we had shows photos such a things and scrolling weirdly remember that website maybe so [laughter] >> so I couldn't find out what kind of theater is it so I just arrived and then come down to the Soho and then I realized Oh, this size of the theater. But still interesting theater I found out and but uh still I have no idea like what kind of is it. >> Oh, that's hysterical. I never knew the story. >> Yeah. But luckily >> this was 2005. >> 2005. Yes. Yeah. >> Summer. And then but luckily here at center has a half artist program and also summer festivals and festivals. So still I'm working with that artist I met in that uh American living room festival. >> So yeah I could get here in that way and then I had the connections a lot. So then one of that connection Cameron Steel told me maybe eight months later when I arrived in this country he said you should stay in this country make the show with me. >> Mhm. Okay, I will try to extend my visa. So, and then tried. So, I think that yeah, you accept me as a designer. I mean, no one knows who I am, right? And then gradually people noticed, oh, this guy can't speak English well, but can do light, [laughter] right? So, then I became writing designer for the culture m festival in the winter. It's I think it's six months later I arrived this country. So, I could make the connection with that here at center hab program and such. So then I feel after that I could join actually downtown theater world. >> So >> I actually think the first shows you worked on, correct me if I'm wrong, I think you worked on disposable men and I'll wear bowlers. Yes. I think those were the first two shows you worked on and I remember you being so um helpful and enthusiastic um in a way that is not a US tradition that was a very Japanese respectful tradition >> for presence and for support. Um, and that that was my earliest impression was was how much you cared about the work and making sure that what was needed in the room was happening. And I just remember that fierce like commitment to making sure that the work was being made in the way that it should be being made. >> Yeah. Cuz I actually I quit the company. I mean I quit from my master's placement and then no connection in this country and then quit all job in Japan. So I have nothing at that point. So I could just concentrate to what I want to do and then to make new connection in this country. >> So and also I was young [laughter] maybe >> right >> but yeah exactly I did my best full swing. Nothing else I could do I can do anyways. So, >> and I remember on All Wear Bowlers, I'm sure you remember this, >> you and Trey and Jeff were having a beer on the street. Yes. After rehearsal one night, and the police almost wanted to arrest you, and we were like trying to protect you to make sure you didn't get in trouble with the police as a as an immigrant, [laughter] in trouble. >> Yes, it was actually opening night. I think >> it was opening night. >> Opening party. And then I never know the rule. people can't drink at outside in this city, >> right? So I was just okay people smoking outside so I'm going to smoke and beer. >> Then we are maybe talking too much at outside and someone already called police and then I was like okay and I said sorry I can't speak English. I'm sorry. I'm [laughter] sorry. I'm sorry. Yeah it was. So >> you've had the opportunity you just spoke about the heart program. You've had the opportunity to work with artists over multiple iterations of projects from inception through work in progress to premieres. Um, >> how does that inform your design work to be with an artist all along the way in the process? >> Yeah, that was great. I mean, yeah, it's great. So because so I started my SA experience maybe I should say from high school >> then start building a high school play together with my friend at a club activity and then during university days >> I I started my lighting but that that's also start with friends >> so but after I graduated I became professional even in downtown world there's no time no money to make such kind of relationship even just uh you know few days rehearsals I can join and then >> yeah then do and open the show in a week blah blah blah so compared with that that half program process was like really comfortable >> then like I feel I'm making together so that feeling was great >> yeah that the hop program start so I told to my all of my friend in Japan like hey in New York downtown world we can make the show we can use couple of ears to make just one show so that was so beautiful [snorts] so that was great experience um but on the other hand yeah after I really became professional even in this country >> Mhm. There's many project of course like behave as a like this is not correct word but say as a like behave as a professional or >> not try to make friends or like collaborator feeling just uh okay so this is a budget this is what I what I can do and then just go to the theater make the show together. [sighs and gasps] Yeah. But still, I'm not hating that way. >> Uhhuh. >> Because anyway, we are creating something. >> Are you saying that it felt more transactional and less like you were growing the project over time? >> Yeah. Yeah. Just >> I mean, yeah. I'm just hired, >> right? >> And then providing my service >> instead of a partner in the creation of the work. >> Yeah. Yeah. >> Yes. >> So, but I'm [snorts] still not hating that. That's also one way for the as a lighting designer as a artist that is one way to provide my art. >> Mhm. >> Yeah. >> Does a do-it-yourself perspective or aesthetic is that a part of your work? >> That is one of my good part I think but not everything. >> Um [snorts] like uh especially puppet show. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. They even not making script right they just making something and then what is this they even don't know and then making something and rehearsing with that puppet and oh this puppet can move like this >> so they are like creating process and then also yeah final product is totally like a seamlessly related and then not uh there is not not nothing But uh it's not a shared script or written down information beforehand. >> Mhm. >> If there is such kind of thing, it's easy to like join at the last moment and then making together. But the puppet show was puppet show object theater or other hub shows especially like your show is including many new technology or new trials is process to making the show a work in progress is important to reach to some final goal or final product and keep changing or >> I should not say changing keep creating. >> Yes. Yeah. So >> and evolving right? >> Yeah. Yeah. So that is one way to making the shell I think. So >> so DIY is one of my good skill. I think but uh if it's necessary yes but uh I'm not looking for that one always [laughter] that was I feel like one of my strong option but if I don't use it that's okay. Yeah, >> that was my feeling >> because now you're working in a spectrum of spaces from small spaces like here to like you just did uh the Monkey King with the San Francisco Opera uh which was a really huge house to be working in um to touring touring projects. You've also done stuff in galleries and events that are more installation. So, how do those different contexts inform the work that you make? Yeah, I'm just always thinking about that. But that my answer is not huge difference in that core part. >> Um everything is limited by time and budget anyways. >> Yeah. >> So that balance of schedule and budget dictating eventually anyways. So even huge like huge opera it's huge and then like 800 or more fixtures I can control. >> Yeah. >> But there's no time to fix details anyways. >> Uhhuh. And then like here art center for example main stage for me that's in general it's just you know 100 seat capacity and then small space but uh it's ceiling is low and it means wide space. So actually we need many lighting units anyways to make the perfect. >> Uhhuh. So and yeah and also lighting wise one important thing is have to light up all areas because audience have to see it. >> Mhm. >> So it means we need some base light anyways. >> Yeah. Yeah. So number of the base light. So like huge space like opera theater has huge space and a huge number of the light. But most of the light is using for base light anyways. >> Right. >> Then even here is smaller but still you know depend on the shape of the stage. We need a lot of base light anyways. Mhm. >> So there's no like free free or like you can capacity or like lighting units >> we can keep for just creative purpose. >> Mhm. >> So it's limited anyways. >> And then if I have like 800 lights then even just build general wash it take a lot of time. Here it's maybe easy. So bigger theater longer schedule but still it take time just for make one look and then small space it's easy to make one look but the limited but it's anyways it's limited >> a balancing act between the two. >> Mhm. >> Even smaller space we have like a huge longer time and budget to hire support and then rent the lighting unit. that makes much more creative. >> Mhm. >> Creative extra room for me. >> Right. >> So [snorts] it's eventually it depends on the balance. Like my first show in 2026 is like downtown Cadra art studios festivals. >> It's maybe 11 or 12 lights or something [laughter] like that. >> So yeah, still I enjoyed it. So >> it's so balanced. No difference. Anyway, I'm like using my my full capacity to make something. >> You talked before about coming from Japan. >> Yes. >> Um, has your identity um or lived experience affected your aesthetic? >> That's very difficult. I don't know. What do you think? [laughter] [gasps] >> I can't tell. Well, that uh uh especially lighting is anyway it's really like abstractive. >> Mhm. >> Can't to be like concrete thing. So very difficult to say specific difference. I mean that's also one reason why you could ask me to do lighting in 2005. even I couldn't speak English well uh cuz it's kind of similar same thing anyway it's abstractive and then lighting yeah some unified or what should I say in the general art >> mhm >> internationally nonbal portion of course there is some background like uh yeah when I making like monkey king last fall [snorts] I could provide like my knowledge of bait knowledge of Buddhism and then also how that monkey king story was adapted to the Japanese it's from China but for Japanese people that there is some you know universal story universal theme behind that monkeying story that I could >> explain that and then I could talk to like set designers and the directors why we should do this because or this is maybe not or so I could use my knowledge and the background but even in that giant show but I'm not sure about the design wise >> what is a moment Ben of like pure joy in your work >> yes that's a that's interestingly I don't know I I never heard but as a lighting designer [snorts] if my like a sense And then yeah there's we need reason to do light always I need just provide brightness or this thing maybe director want to have this kind of light and >> and then also yeah maybe color is this or angle is this or something there's many reasons by director and my sense and the script there's many requirements >> uh but everything is matching perfectly. >> Mhm. So happening on stage is grow up from inside of my target. It's can be actors, dancers or singers or object or puppet. >> Not lighting from outside. It start growing from inside and then like >> okay I'm I'm feeling it's not light something from outside. So it's like I'm just uh making space atmosphere and then it's just there. It's animating the world. >> Animating. Yeah. So it's growing from inside if I my light hit correctly on that core of the story or object. >> Yeah. >> So that moment if sometimes I get not always unfortunately but when I feel that I feel like okay I'm doing good job. [laughter] >> Yeah. >> Um collaboration is obviously a big part of your work. you were just talking about on Monkey King, but >> um how what what makes a collaboration really satisfying and juicy for you um or not? >> Yeah. Uh one thing lighting designer is unfortunately cannot be cannot be lighting designer without collaboration. >> Mhm. >> Always someone have to ask me to do the light and I need something on stage to light up. >> Yeah. So I I'm not creator, I'm designer. I'm as a still artist, but I'm recognizing me as a designer. >> So someone need create something. >> I can make it >> better or like gorgeous, but still. >> So yeah. So I have to collaborate anyways to express my art >> anyways. So then collaboration is important but also Yeah. collaboration is necessary for me. >> Yes. [laughter] >> Yeah. >> How does it how is it different for you when you work with an artist over a long period of time? Like you've done a lot of work with Basil Twist. You've done a lot of work with me. There are a bunch of other artists that you've done repeated projects with. How is it different to work with an artist over multiple projects as opposed to working with someone for the first time? >> First time. Yeah. Of course we have to like find out how how much I can tell or how much uh the first thing important thing is like type of the director >> director collaborator someone really needs more informations or more like suggestions ideas >> some director say okay I need that sidelight lead color lead 2011 and then 20% % on so it's >> so yeah I have to collaborate such kind of like a huge range of people spectrum so >> then longtime collaborators I don't need like a such that >> so because we already know and then where is a comfortable way to collaborate so that's really >> good part and then also yeah physical Ally I know I notice when I move in this country so >> the world I'm looking is different >> each people then it's one way maybe I told you in the past so the color of the eye iris >> has huge impact I think like paler color people can see more in dark >> and then like my I have black eyes so this kind of I yeah can't see well in the dark compared with that kind of person. So >> that's interesting. >> Yeah. So that uh yeah now I'm in school so I'm like searching that also I effect and then [snorts] yeah that difference like a huge percentage is different actually. So really you can really see I I first saw but uh now I know you so I don't need to touch that level too. >> Yeah. And then like brightness some like uh backlight or like blind light some people really hate and painful but some people really love so exciting. [laughter] So that the difference also I have to so that's kind of basic >> information before I start creating something um violating their comfortable point. So I not try to find a good point to not violating there like comfortable and exciting. Then some good lighting or exciting lighting is like have to go to the edge of that comfortable part I think >> right that comfort zone. >> Comfort zone. Yes. Thank you. So comfort zone. So yeah that's I have to find and also favorite color also >> based on that background of that artist they also make some different imagination by the same color or same look. >> Mhm. >> So that's also I have to adjust. Um also like uh you know I can do some DIY or I can do some soldering by myself or something like that. uh then I will I know also what you expecting me so that's so yeah longtime collaborator is important to make more deep comfortable ex yeah art expression from my side and I can suggest safely >> mh >> uh I don't need like a stress for that process and then I can just concentrate to what I should make for this directors >> you just spoke about going back to school so you've had many years in New York and you work quite a lot as a lighting designer. What made you decide to go back to a graduate to go to a graduate program here in the US? >> Yes. Yeah. Uh that the reason main reason is like I'm thinking how to survive as an artist. >> Yeah. >> I don't want to quit to being artist >> but uh yeah. Yeah. Economy. >> Yeah. to [snorts] keep my life and my family is not easy and also then one way yeah not only that but many reasons but one is yeah economy is important thing and then other thing is my experience yeah I mean I've never think about it until I came this country but all of or most of the lighting designer has master degree in this industry I am the only maybe not only but almost only lighting designer who is working for 20 years in this country as a lighting designer without any degree. [laughter] So my degree is Japanese history in school. So >> it's kind I'm proud of that too but also I was missing about the knowledge general common knowledge I user has. >> Okay. I'm picking up and I'm stealing those knowledge and skills. That's why I could survive this long time in this country. But still I realizing I have a lot of dark spot. >> Okay. >> Which people usually know. But I so I want to feel that too. And then after that I want to be teacher >> right we've talked about that interest in teaching. >> Yeah. So if I can do that then I can make little more not huge but uh some basic income by teaching. Yes. >> Then that is a good way to survive as a artist because to be teaching and also still I can do my lighting too. >> So >> and you have two kids you're trying to raise in New York City as well right? Yes. >> So then for that Yeah. Okay. without MFA it's very difficult to be teacher if I'm >> Broadway writing designer already maybe okay but I was not so then yeah master degree is maybe really interesting thing to get that so now I'm going to school and then >> also I'm now teaching to undergrad people too so that is really fun and interesting >> and then learning at the grad school and my teachers Yeah, that is great experience. >> Does access to resources change the way you make work? >> Actually process will change >> will be changed uh by that uh like it's technically it's totally different technique to >> work with assistant or without assistant. is totally different >> and then work with director who has sense of budget or who doesn't have sense of budget >> and or director who has sense but don't care budget [laughter] or so it's a different so yes my process or way to speak >> uh will change >> um but what I want to make is what My client director or producer want to make if someone ask me to do lighting but uh if they are not preparing anything for me >> then my passion is also shrinking down cuz oh they are not uh expecting me to do a lot. >> Mhm. >> So it's not access. Yeah. Access. Yes. One of that. Yes. So I as a designer I'm measuring how much they want to they want to do by lighting. >> I can measure by their like budgeting or preparation. I think that's affecting way of work because then I can do if the my client is not expecting a lot then I can do other work at the same time or sometimes then I have to I have to because if I say no then I have I can't I will lose a chance to get other job from the same client >> right >> so to think about my life. My life is also how to survive as a designer or artist. >> Then keeping my client is really important. So >> then sometimes I I just uh you know okay I stop everything else then I can concentrate to that show. >> Mhm. >> Uh if it's prepared everything for me that's became possible. Yes. >> So then of course >> okay yes I also have to do that. So I think that yes accessing to resource also dictating yeah my style work but my purpose is always like how to make my director comfortable >> and then make happy >> then that's also >> yes make makes my makes me happy so much. Yeah. >> How do you define success? Okay. So, I came here this country. Of course, I imagined, okay, I want to be Broadway designer. >> Mhm. >> Still, I'm willing to I'm really interested in that because I'm joining this country uh in this industry already. So, yeah, I want to see that world too. And then luckily now I'm I had experience to the grand opera too. So, that was interesting. And then used to be I was interested in touring and then I could do that. That was interesting. And then also yeah immersive theaters or using you know two months load in to make one show that was also I really interested in so in downtown theater so that was >> so interesting and hard. >> Uh so then also I'm making show with you like which no one ever make. So that was also kind of succeed because I can't create a show. >> So I had I had to wait someone give me that chance and I could get that chance cuz using new application such in the internet and then during rehearsal wow my daughter's face is showing up this display [laughter] something like that. So it's like new experience. >> You're talking about looking at you. Yes. Yes. >> Yes. That was that was really great experience. And then that was my one of big success as artist like >> yeah see no one see this one before before I see this. So that was great opportunity. >> I don't know so many measures >> to determine the successes. So [snorts] I don't know it could be answer still I'm looking for yeah bigger size is one of huge >> motivation but also newest extreme yes >> do you have thoughts about what would make uh life more sustainable for designers in this country >> in this country but that's really interesting compared with Japanese designers this country designers life in this country is way way better. So >> Oh interesting. >> Yeah, it's way better. Um even yeah big name like only yeah in Japan maybe 10 or less than 20 lighting designer can sub can live as just a lighting designer. >> Oh wow. And then most of the products are is not like to pay design fee. >> So the way to survive in Japanese designers are getting huge equipment. >> So they are not renting. So they are like having their equipment and then lenting to the show. So >> oh >> that was the way they are generating money actually. >> Okay. [snorts] >> So it's a different way to survive. But uh this country at least designers can get fe as a designer. >> Mhm. >> As a design fee and then can have a pride as a artist. >> So that was so different. [snorts] So of course design fee is getting bigger and better in this country. Of course that helps me a lot. So I that I hope >> um but I'm not sure how much I should hope. [laughter] Uh so that's yeah I need more yeah more stable income somehow. M I don't know artist life is I don't know like in Eastern Europe many people many artist is hired by government and they are guaranteed by government >> but I'm not sure in Japan many traditional artists like bunraku or no they are >> getting money from government um >> I'm not sure they are making active art or Right. >> They're just keeping traditions. >> So universal bic basic income you're talking about would be great to have here in the US. >> Yeah, maybe. But you know to be so hungry hungry spirit is one of the good motivation for artists, right? >> That's especially downtown theater world. Yes, >> I know many people getting tired with that later and then difficult to survive and keep having that hungry spirits but so general income is great but also [snorts] not sure it's best way for art >> or not. Do you think that the spirit of downtown that you first saw when you came here >> um in what like you came here in like 2005 >> so do you think that spirit is still present do you still see it here in New York >> I'm living in Bushwick so that's kind of interesting part everything is still under like a construction and then many creator is gathering so I don't see a lot of shows in Bushwick but still I can feel that thing survive. So um yeah that was important thing and then but when I came this country one thing because I'm technician also I have to say so one huge movement is people everyone in a big theater or in a small theater everyone tried to involve projection to the show >> still on that process >> that was kind of movement I felt that power by that um and then after that I see in downtown so after New York city opera bankrupt like people start having opera in the black box and then that became a movement and then I don't know what is current movement I don't know >> ah >> what is a new AI or what someone already tried like you already tried so some I don't know >> actual movement I don't know or spirits or people interested which that I don't know but still people. New York has that power. >> Great. I think >> Thank you. Uh, is there anything that we didn't talk about that you want to mention? >> No. >> Okay, great. Thank you so much for doing this, Po. >> You're welcome. >> Thanks to you for joining us today and to Hell Round for hosting us and we hope that you'll come back for more of Torches. [screaming] Ooh. Ooh, ooh.